The Ringer NBA Show - Lakers-Rockets #Spitgate, Plus Opening-Week Takeaways | Heat Check (Ep. 324)

Episode Date: October 22, 2018

The Ringer’s John Gonzalez is joined by Kevin O’Connor, Paolo Uggetti, and Jason Gallagher to recount the brawl between the Los Angeles Lakers and Houston Rockets during their Saturday-night matchup (2:47) as well as the basketball aspects of the game (20:01). Then, Dan Devine comes on to discuss the standout teams from Week 1 of the regular season (38:26). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and promo code NBA. And now, heat check. Welcome to the Heat Check Podcast. I'm your host, John Gonzalez. Join as I am every week by our producer, Isaac. I had a whole show plan for us. We were going to review the NBA from week one. Guess what? Blown up?

Blown up like Chris Paul's face. Blown up like Chris Paul's face. Paul and Rondo ruined our podcast for today. So, of course, we're going to have to get into that whole conversation off the top. Before we do some quick housekeeping, I want to thank everybody. for listening. I want to encourage you if you're so inclined to please rate and review us. I mean, Gons is going to encourage you. I'm going to coerce you. You better give us a rating and review. I am, this is more like a gentle nudge. Isaac is very agro about this. Five stars, some nice words. Get us back to five stars on iTunes, guys. Come on.

If not just for you listening and because you like the show, then to get Isaac off of all of our backs. Please do that. And also, I would advise you to go and check out the ringer.com. We have lots of great content. Palo and I were at the Lakers Rockets fight, which was also LeBron James' first home game in Purple and Gold. KOC and Jason Gallagher, who's the producer for NBA desktop, were also on hand. They contributed to that report, and they're all going to join me right off the top of the program to discuss that whole thing. Also on the ringer.com, Justin Varyer did a story of headline spit takes where there were no winners from the Lakers Rockets fight, and KOC has five takeaways from opening week.

Later on in the program, we'll have some conversation. with Dan Devine, new ringer staff or Dan Devine from our New York office. He'll do all the things that aren't Lakers and Rockets. We're going to talk about basketball, the Western Conference, a couple of the Eastern Conference teams as well, so you want to stick around for that. But first, like I said,

a bunch of us were at Staples Center on Saturday. It was going to be LeBron's big coming out party and it was for a minute and then all of a sudden it wasn't and chaos ensued and we were there and we're going to break that down for you right now. All right, joining me in studio right now from the mismatchezing.

Tuesday's fantastic new NBA podcast. It's Kevin O'Connor. We've got Paolo O'Ggetty from group chat and other NBA ringer concerns. And on the phone in the car, because he's doing double duty as a ringer staffer, the producer of NBA desktop, but also as a dad, Jason Gallagher is here. What's up, guys? Hello, guys. So all four of us were at the Lakers Rockets game on Saturday night.

We went there to staff it up to cover LeBron in his home debut. and the shit hit the fan. And then all of a sudden it wasn't about LeBron being in the home debut. It was about the fight that happened between Brandon Ingram and Rondo and Chris Paul, the league office handed down its disciplinary action on Sunday. Brandon Ingram is out for four games. Rondo is out for three games. Chris Paul is out for two games.

He already served one on Sunday in the loss to Isaac's Clippers. Crazy night. Where were we in the arena? Powell and I were sitting next to each other. We were sitting, I don't know how to describe. but diagonally from the court one section. At the same end. At the same end. So we had a pretty good view,

I would say, of everything that went down. Like, I almost had to like half stand in my seat to kind of look up because as it started happening, as the punches started flying, you looked around and you almost saw the whole arena also kind of like go on edge and like stand up. And it was like, it was pretty surreal like the atmosphere. I think you would

agree. Like, everybody just seemed first like, oh, this has actually happened. Like, it took it like a moment to realize like this is like a fight. It's very strange because I saw Brandon Ingram push James Harden under the basket on that foul, and I thought, well, that was really stupid. This is a very close game, and you just got teed up, and the tee hadn't happened yet.

And then shit really went sideways. Kevin, you were at the other end of the arena. Yeah, on that other end of the arena was the close line. Yeah, that's right. I think that might have gotten guys a little bit more on edge, even prior to that Ingram play. It just continually built, and nothing was stopped to prevent it from escalating. And then it turned into a boxing match.

about left jabs from Rajan Rondo instead of the Lakers poor defense. And that never, we never really see that. Like, you don't see actual punches thrown in an NBA game. We were trying to figure out, like, when was the last time we saw punches thrown? Gallagher, you were wandering all over the arena. You were, like, taking pictures with fans who ran into you, signing autographs, charging people for them. Where were you when it went down?

At that time, I was in the media workroom. I had already done my arena tour. I had promised the fans. I was going to be out and about. come hit me up and they were just all over. No, but in all seriousness, I was in the media workroom with a bunch of the heavy hitters who were in town because it was LeBron's first game.

So you had your Stephen A. Smith's and Jim Gray and Max Kellerman. Max Kellerman was there, which how fitting was that? It was beautiful. And he was so into it. He was so into it. He did this sort of, I don't want to call it performative, but a little performative, like, stand up to be like, this is a huge deal.

And we're like, we're with you, Max. No, it was pretty stint. Everyone, I mean, it was a hard gas, partially because of just what took place and then partially because everyone was met with the reality of what their night was going to look like moving forward, which is just a ton of work. Yeah. So, I mean, to the extent, and we'll just do this real quick, but to the extent that listeners care, like, when you're at an arena for a LeBron's home opener, they issued 250 media credentials, over 250 media credentials, which I was talking to one of the Lakers PR people, and they were telling me it was roughly equivalent to when. When Kobe Bryant had his last game, it's somewhere in what you would issue for like a conference finals. There was a lot of people there. And they were all there just for LeBron. And everybody was trying to produce LeBron content. It was late in the game.

So when that happens, that all goes out the window. Now it's like, let's go and track down this story. So we all immediately mobilize. And Gallagher is talking to Mello. And you saw Kevin, you saw Chris Paul, who had been ejected. He got dressed really quickly and was basically talking loudly. in the hallway at or two. We'll put a slash in there.

Mike Dantone. Yeah, so me and Gallagher were standing around waiting to go inside the Rockets locker room, and Chris Paul came coming through these doors where I assume players just kind of hang out afterwards, maybe meet with family and all that. And he goes straight up to Mike Dantone. And, you know, you guys had some of it in the article

where it was just pretty much like, what are we going to do here? Like, what are we going to do here? And, you know, then Dan Tony's like, oh, you know, I'm pretty sure Jason, it was, Dan Tony's like, that's what happens. And you know, when people talk about your wife or something like that.

Which was later reported, which was later reported by Shams from the Athletic who said that somebody in Rondo's camp had confronted Chris Paul's wife afterwards, if I have that right. So that didn't go over great. It was just extremely heated. And then Gallagher,

you ran into Mello who called the whole thing bullshit. Yeah, guys, let me preface something here. I'm from Dallas. I'm not a fan of Houston in general. And I was pretty on the side of Houston just because of what I saw. in that hallway in that locker room because

basically because they were so convinced that Rondo spit and at that point everyone was like, well, let's give Rondo notoriously not great guy, the benefit of the doubt for whatever reason. But the people in that Houston locker room, the way that Mantonie was, the way that Chris Paul was freaking heated up, guys.

Yeah, and really convinced me. I was like, dude, Rondo did something. He did something inappropriate. Maybe it wasn't spitting. Maybe he said something inappropriate, whatever it was. They were convinced it was. was the spitting thing.

And seeing them, I mean, Mello was pissed from the jump. When we walked in, he was just head down, was just shaking his head. They were pissed. To Jason's point, I was also in the rocket soccer room for a bit. And Clint Capella, like, dressed to do his interview. He stands up. And he just, like, calmly goes about saying, like, yeah, you know, basically being like, I think they were frustrated.

And that's why they started fighting it. Like, just like, so matter-factly. And that got to talk to Eric Gordon afterward. And he was like, yeah, like, you had to look at them and how they started. They were so convinced and so clear about the fact that they were not in the wrong in any sort of form that they were doubling down on it, but also being very nonchalant about it, which was interesting. They definitely doubled down on it. I wonder in terms of culpability, because Luke Walton brought this up, he thought that the close line

that happened a couple of plays earlier, a couple minutes earlier, at the other end of the court where Kevin was seated, where Ennis kind of closed line Brandon Ingram, right? It was Ingram? No, no, he closed line Josh Hart. That's what it was. It was Josh Hart. It was Josh Hart. But that was,

they said that they felt like that escalated tension. No doubt. I think it probably did. It got a little chippy. But Brandon Ingram was at it. Brandon Ingram was like definitely, he got the most games in the suspension

when the disciplinary action was handed down here. And I thought that that was right because in addition to pushing hard and sort of kicking this whole thing off, he also got in the face of one of the referees big time. And then he came running in from nowhere to throw a haymaker. And this is my whole thing. From whatever you think about how many games

he should have gotten, he should get the most because just from like a pure like boxing strategy standpoint, he's got the reach and the length and he missed. Like, you've got to connect with that shot, man, if you're going to come in. He did miss, but like in that slow motion video that came out yesterday where you could clearly see spit flying out of Rondo's mouth whether it was intentional or not. Who knows? I love seeing Ingram's faces he was running and he's like, I'm ready to go, baby. He's ready to brawl. I never. And I've said this, we did the video post game, so I just said this then, but, like, I've never seen, like, that version of Ingram, and I'm pretty sure everybody I asked at the game, they were like, that was weird.

Nobody has seen it. Like, he is, I say this all the time. I go to a lot of Lakers practices and games. You could be standing next to him, and you have to strain to hear the words that are coming out of his mouth because he's that soft-spoken. And the way that he comports himself is generally, like, just very nice, very, I don't want to say docile, but just, like, quiet. He's a quiet kid.

He's an unassuming kid. like there isn't a lot of animation or emotion to him. And that was hands down the most animated I've ever seen him. For sure. And you know, and you can see that in his style on the court too. Sometimes there's a little bit of passiveness. Yeah,

when I say like I love it. I meant I love that intensity. I don't appreciate sucker shots. I don't appreciate sucker punching. But I love the intensity from everyone. It's like, she's like, channel that on the court.

Kevin O'Sucker Punch. Kevin O'Connor, appreciate it. Kevin O'Cucker Punch. We talked about, so like with that night, we were all talking about why it happened and who was to blame. And, you know, we went through the Ingram component. But the Rondo and CP3 component continues to be a point of contention.

And we have all broken down this video like it's as a pruder film. There's a newer, higher definition video that came out, courtesy of Sam Amick from the Athletic. We've all had a chance to go through it. I looked at it a lot. There's obviously spit that comes out of Rondo's mouth. I'm still torn on whether or not it was intentional. I think it was. I think it was, given Rond's history and given their history together, it's hard not to see it and be like, okay, like, there was something there.

I thought it was hilarious how at one point, you know, basketball Twitter does all they're like zooming in and all that. At one point, somebody recorded a portion of the video where it looked like Mello turned towards CP3. And that's when CP reacted as if he had been spit at. And then afterward, Mello licked his lips. So there was like a small conspiracy theorist saying like maybe it was just mellow who'd spit accidentally and then that it ended up going on

CB3 and that's when I mean there's clearly there's clearly spit that comes out of Ronda's man Where are you on like if he did it on purpose? Rondo is an incredibly smart guy and incredibly creative guy and I mean if I were like far ranking the humans of who could

spit without making it look like they were spitting at Rondo would be at the top of the list Okay Gallagher your boy Jason Concepcion said, because I was saying, like I looked at it so many times. I was like,

I can't tell if it was on purpose. And Jason's point in Slack was, the tell is that he looked away after he did it. Yeah. Well, I think that's a really good point. I also think that I saw the high-deaf footage. I didn't have to see any footage.

He has the reputation for doing things like this. And if I were to pick one player to spin on a player, it would have been Rondo. And if I were to pick one player to get spit at, it would been Chris Paul. It all makes perfect sense. I don't know why we're even talking about this. Like, Rondo for sure has been on Chris Paul.

Like, that is the most logical thing you could ever say in the NBA right now. I think you're right. Reputation and history there are not in Rondo's favor. But how do we feel about Chris Paul breaking out, like, the claw maneuver to Rondo's face? Like, spinning shouldn't do it. That's not good. You're going to definitely get punched if you do that. However, the claw eyeball maneuver, not far behind on the probably shouldn't

do that list. Well, I mean, I think that was the right move by Chris Paul, though, rather than just straight up going with a punch. I mean, like, it's like, you don't want to be the first guy to throw a punch, but maybe you just put your hand in his face and it's like, what's this punk going to do? Like, that's what you're thinking in your mind when you're going with an action like that. I like the Kevin O Street Fighter fights dirty over here. I like this. I suppose it's an upgrade from the nut punching. Like, right? Are we, are we in agreement there? Like, isn't Chris Paul pretty notorious nut puncher? I feel like I've read specific articles about this. You know, looking back on the tape, it almost looks like Chris was

so thrown off that actually happened to him, that like Ron was actually spinning him, that he didn't even know what to do. So his first reaction was to kind of just like spas out with his hands at him. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like three stooges, I jackled and it was really amazing. But is he going to punch him? Like, what's he going to do? Yes, yes.

Eventually they did punch each other. But I mean, like, is that the first reaction if you're Chris fall? I don't think so. Before we get into, because there's some cross pollination on the peacemaking that I want to discuss. But I want to, I want to break down the punches that were thrown. I think that of all the punches that were thrown, that Rondo's jab was the most effective. He's got the length. He connected on it. Chris Paul with the

uppercut. It was a nice thought. I like the maneuver. He shifted his weight as a boxing officiantoado. I thought that that was a good, but he didn't really connect the way that you'd want to see. Kind of hit Rondo in the chest. So I think that Rondo got the most out of this. And then again, Ingram came out of nowhere. He's got the length. He's really got to work on his CompuBox accuracy. Not that good. I think Rondo probably won the fight. Who won the fight? Rondo did, absolutely. He nailed that left jab right on Chris Paul. That caught him. Yeah. I mean, there's people who already have like Chris Paul's getting punched face as they're like Twitter. So, I mean, I think that tells you all you need to know.

Rhondo won the fight. All right. So the peacemaking component was interesting too because one, you had Lance Stevenson, who's probably the biggest antagonist, certainly on the court that evening. At one point earlier in the night, he got hard and really fired up and was just sort of laughing about. it and having a good time with it. But Lance Stevenson was one of the people to sort of separate guys and try to calm things down. Also, LeBron James. LeBron James, last I checked, plays for the Lakers.

His first instinct was to grab his guy CP and pull him off to the side. And I get it, they're good buddies and whatnot. But in that instance, don't forget last year, Lonzo Ball got a lot of heat for when there was a tussle with the Sons. He looked at it and walked the other way, you know, because they wanted Lonzo to like be in the fray, be in the mix, or at least go grab your guys. And Lonzo, like, separated himself. This last fight, he did that, right?

He went in there, he grabbed guys, he separated them. LeBron is not going to get any heat because he's LeBron. But should he? I mean, like, if you're a lake or do you look at him a little sideways where you're like, oh, you're grabbing your boy? What about our guys? I'm going to defend LeBron here, actually, because looking back on the tape, the place where he's standing and the way the fight kind of turns around toward him, his only choice

there is to grab CB3. there's definitely a connection there because our friends obviously so if anybody is going to grab CP3 it's going to be LeBron but at the same time if you really go back and look at it he couldn't even grab Romna from where he was standing so to grab Chris and just made a lot of sense in that moment and plus Mello I believe grabbed Ingram like I think at that point it was just people just pulling back

and so I'm with Paulo it's strange because like those two teams have a lot of like interteam friendships obviously you have LeBron and Chris Paul but also Ingram and Chris Paul and Chris Paul are tight. Ingram has shown up at Chris Paul's camps. They're both from North Carolina. As you mentioned, Mello. There's a photo of them together when Ingram was younger.

Yeah, yeah. So, like, these guys all have, like, relationships. PJ Tucker knows Ingram as well. Like, these guys all have relationships. So it's kind of strange that these two teams got into it. Although, I guess when you enter in Rondo into the mix, like as the catalyst, maybe not that strange. I find the whole conversation on Saturday night about, you know,

why did LeBron grab Chris Paul first? just really silly in a way because it's like, well, first of all, like Paolo said, he was close to him. Just like on the opposite end of the fight, there's Rockets players that grab a Lakers player, right? But also it's like, so what if he grabbed him first? They've been friends for over a decade. Of course his loyalties are to Chris Paul. If you and I are ever on a rival podcast brawl, I'm not grabbing you first. I'm grabbing moveovers on my podcast.

That's it. We're friends when the podcast is over, when the podcast brawl is over. But you know what? Like that's what happens is like essentially like they're all becoming one family. It's true. It's not about one fight, one team against the other. It's about. But then there was a fight between those teams.

It's just bizarre. It's hard for me to process. Last thing, when we were all walking out, we did a video outside and, you know, we're recapping everything that happened and the bizarreness of the night. And you should check that on on our various social media platforms. But K.O.C., you said to me that it was such an odd L.A. night. because in addition to it being LeBron's first home game, in addition to all those media members

from 15 different countries and territories around the world being there, there were also a ton of celebrities who were there. Jack reemerged, Jack Nicholson, who has only been intermittently at games, Floyd Mayweather and Jonah Hill and Andy Garcia. Also, Kendall Jenner. Kendall Jenner, who you overheard talking about the fight.

Yeah, so she was sitting on the court seats in the section in front of me. And as I was walking out of the arena, She happened to be also walking out with her whole group as well. And, like, it was just funny here. And Kendall Jenner, break down the fight. She's like, so I think she might have just watched a video. And she's like, so they spit, like, and then some put its hand in his face.

And she's like, react to the punch. She's like, look at that punch. There's just really cool. Just Her and her group. That's a very good. They're fans just like us. They're fans. Celebrities are just like us. Gallagher, how long until KOC and Kendall Jenner are a thing?

Because clearly they're, the proximity there. They've got a little relationship. Yeah, I think it's been building. in my mind for a while. Seeing this come to fruition is just my dreams come true. Hopefully, but let's give it a year. Kendall Jenner,

Kendall Jenner come on desktop. There you go. Jason Gallagher from NBA desktop. Thank you for joining us. Palo Ogetty. You can read all his stuff on the ringer.com. KOC is going to stick around with me. We're going to take a quick little break,

and then he's going to come back on the other side. We're going to talk basketball for a second. Basketball. Thanks, guys. I love basketball. See ya. Bochakalaka. He's heating up.

All right, we're back with KOC. We're going to talk about basketball after we talked about the fight a little bit. The Lakers and the Rockets not off to such hot starts there, KOC. Lakers are 0 and 2. The Rockets after beating the Lakers fell to the Clippers. They're now 1 and 2. These are two teams that you and I both had high hopes for still do. It's early.

Let's start with the Lakers. They're playing at the fastest pace in the league. This is what they wanted to do. They talked about it before the season started. I went over to Lakers practice on Sunday. Ask Luke Walton about it. He said, no, this is the way we want to play. It's just that the result hasn't been there yet.

How do you feel about the style of basketball that they're playing right now? I absolutely love the fast pace. It's really a dream come true to see LeBron playing at this fast pace, moving the ball, pushing the ball up with the amount of pastors they have on that team, whether it's Rondo. Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, who's a great passer for his size and position. They have a lot of talent on that team. It makes sense.

Like LeBron said in preseason, from a coaching standpoint, you have all these young legs, I think, is what LeBron said. it would be stupid not to play fast. And I agree. But there's some other issues in that team. There are a lot of issues. Well, and the defense thing is completely legit. Draymond had just said the other day, like, nobody's playing defense in the league anymore.

Like, if you look at the scores around the league, there have been so many crooked numbers. Everybody is scoring in the hundreds. Like, it's not like, you know, it was five years ago where you're like, oh, if you could hold somebody in the 90s, like, you're going to be playing great. Nobody's doing that. Nobody's doing it. The 100s. And then you're feeling great about it. I mean, like, everybody's playing over it.

We were kind of laughing about it at the Lakers game. There's a promotion. You know how different teams have different promotions? So it was this year for the Lakers, Jack in the Box is giving everybody in the arena two free tacos if the Lakers hold a team under 100 points. Oh, no, me. I don't know if there's going to be any tacos this year.

Nobody's getting tacos. Is that real? Yeah. Oh, my God. You missed that from the other night? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nope, that's never going to happen. Nobody's jack in the box is like, well, our work here is done.

I would say, like, maybe if you face the Kings with the Kings, look pretty solid so far. Yeah, they do. They actually do. Or the Hawks, you can't lean on that against the Hawkskyy. Your triangle go off. It's tough stuff. But you were mentioning playing small. I like it. I like them playing fast. It's fun. But some of the issues, in addition

to defense, the center position, LeBron had played some at the five against Houston out of necessity because you can only squeeze so many minutes out of Jerville McGee. When Javele McGee is on the floor, their defense is infinitely better. He had five blocks the other night. He's the only true rim protector that they have on their team.

Obviously, LeBron is amazing at blocking shots and deflecting and chase downs and that whole thing. But in terms of just having a guy in the traditional big sense to rim protect, it's McGee and you don't have anybody else. He's the only guy. He's the only guy. So LeBron had to play the five a little bit out of necessity. LeBron had said this team is an instant oatmeal.

It's going to take a second to come together. But like you said, some of the fit is not good. No, I mean, I wouldn't overreact to their slow start one bit. I mean, they have LeBron James. They have LeBron James. They do still have him. I saw him the other night. Let's keep that in mind.

They have LeBron James. They have Brandon Ingram, who is a solid player. They have Kyle Kuzma, who isn't shooting the ball well. They have Lonzo Ball, who's already really good for a young player. They have talent. I want to stop on Kuzma for a second because Kuzma has been, in terms of, like, the defense and what people are being asked to do. LeBron isn't the only one who has been asked to shift to the center position.

Kuzma has as well. And the other night, the rocket switch basically everything. And they were attacking those switches for the Lakers as well. And basically, multiple times Kuzma ended up trying to guard. James Harden, not easy. And then when he was, and he was also trying to take up some of the center defensive assignments, also not easy. And Luke Walton was saying,

look, this is tough for him because we're asking him to do something he hasn't been asked to do before. And then on top of that, it's not like he was a stellar, and this is me talking now, not Luke Walden. It's not like he was a stellar defender last year. So he was trying to improve his defense and now he's trying to do it in a different position, where the calls are different,

where the schematics are different for him. Not an easy assignment. Definitely not. You know, and it's impossible to say if there's a cause an effect relationship between his new defensive responsibilities and his diminished offense, shooting, especially because, but he's always been a notoriously inconsistent shooter going back to college, and maybe he's just on one of those cold spells right now. But with the Lakers, like, I wonder if with the suspension of Rondo, I've long felt that Lonzo should start over Rondo.

Now maybe that transition happens. I think starting KCP over Josh Hart, who is a far more consistent player than KCP, probably a better overall shooter, a better decision maker. not as good of a defender, but I think Hart should probably start over KCP as well. And then on the bench, maybe, I mean, this is not a sarcastic statement. I'm being dead serious here. You need Mo Wagner to come back healthy because with Zubats, he can't space the floor. Wagner is a center who can allow you to not play Kuzma there all the time

or not force LeBron to play there too much over the season, which could wear him down. Wagner is a big body who can shoot three. so maybe his return could allow them to play big and still space to floor. And then not only that, maybe you bump Beasley to the bench like he was on Saturday. He didn't play. And then Lance Stevenson, who I think is just an overall negative player. Let's just a negative player. And maybe if we're running a nine-man rotation,

Wagner is their ninth man. And maybe if you're going to 10, Svi Mikhailuk, who is one of the best shooters. Yeah, he's a real. I watch him at practice all the time, and he's just canning shots all the time. but hasn't really gotten into the action so far. Love to see an opportunity for him. Let's see what he has. I love to see an opportunity for him.

I think that the point that you make about Lonzo and Hart entering the starting lineup, I'm with you 1,000%. I look at those two guys and go, they've been better and bigger contributors in this very small sample size through these first two games. But right now, we're going to get more Lonzo.

Like automatically we're going to get more Lonzo because you're missing Rondo in these next three games. Lonzo's been a streaky shooter too. He changed his form over the summer. summer. There's less of a, when he gathers the ball last year and when he was a kid, the gather would start on the very far side of, he's a right-handed shooter. That slingshot. Yeah, and he'd sort of whip it from his left side to his right as the load and then unload. So there was a lot of motion. It took a lot of time to get the shot off. He's

compacted it. There's less of a drag from his left to his right side. He starts it more in a pocket in front of him to unload it. And it's looked better. He did have an airball on Saturday night. and then he can two in a row, and he made four three-pointers for the evening, which they desperately need outside shooting. Can you consistently rely on Lanzo as an outside threat? Can rely on him more than Rondo, that's for sure. Lanzo is better than Rondo at pretty much everything right now.

I think he's a better passer? I mean, Rondo. He's not a better defender. I think he's a better defender. You think he's a better defender? I think he's a way better defender than Rondo. Rondo used to be one of the NBA's top defenders. And he had a comment at some point.

I forget when it was. It might have been post-game or maybe it, Maybe it's a meaty day, but he's like, you know, people pick on me because I'm small on defense. It's like, no, that's not why they pick on you. It's because you don't move your feet like he used to. It's because you let guys go by and you try to reach back to poke the ball out. And Lonzo's a bigger body. Lonzo, like, is a high effort player.

He pays attention. He stays focused. He hustles. He's a better rebounder than Ronzo. I think Lonzo is a flat out better player in almost every category except for perhaps maybe things like communicating. Like, Rondo's really good at that. Yeah, he is.

Like you said, Rondo, his passing is technically better. He's still a really good passer. There are different types of passers. Lonzo gets rid of the ball quick. Rondo pounds the ball. I'd rather have Lonso, the guy who gets rid of it quickly and makes fast reads and not the guy that's taking the ball out of LeBron's hands, out of Ingram's hands. I don't understand that.

Bring Rondo off the bench and stagger him with LeBron and Lanzo rather than, I think, playing him next to LeBron. It's silly to me that they went with that in first place. You and I have talked about that point about Lanzo a lot where he's not a ball stopper at all. Like he keeps the ball moving and is perfect if you're trying to. to play at a fast pace and you don't want somebody who's going to be ball dominant and pound the ball and slow your offense and you're trying to keep things moving and like get out and run. Like Lonzo has been really good at that.

That's the way the Lakers want to play. That is the way they want to play. He even said, again, to practice, we were asking him, you know, like it seems like shooting wise. One, your form, obviously you worked really hard to change it. But two, the air ball aside, and you know, he had one in that first game as well. And he said that it was really like he hesitated. He should have just like shot it rather than thinking about it. but he said he feels way more comfortable than he did a year ago.

And he's always felt like he could be a good shooter. He said he's been a shooter his whole life, which fine. Like I wouldn't expect him to say anything. He has, but I'm saying like, what else would you expect him to say? But he just does look more comfortable. Last year, remember how hesitant he was to start the season? No doubt. I think last year on December 7th, and the reason why I remember the status

because that's when the ring or curse, that's when the season changed. So on December 7th, we published an article titled is Lonzo Ball shot broken. And it kind of broke down what you just. talked about his weird mechanics. It broke down how in college and in his whole life he used Wilson brand basketballs and now he's using Spalding, all this random stuff. And one of the things that he changed is it was clear that he was changing his shooting mechanics dribbling to the right. Like in college, he never really shot off the dribble moving towards his right side. But he tweaked his mechanics to allow himself to actually get the ball off rather than

only going left. So he was changing mechanics last summer before his rookie season. And it's like a course this guy with this ugly looking shot. is going to need time. And the revised mechanics now, I think, are going to help him in spot-up situations. But he also looks a little bit more comfortable based off the way he developed last season into the season a little bit better off the dribble going towards his right. Either way, he's a better shooter than Rondo. Yeah.

That's not hard to do. That helps their floor spacing. No doubt. It's a very low bar. And you're right. With the floor spacing, I would definitely put him in the starting lineup. And he's going to get that now anyway. We're going to see it anyway.

He needs to stay there. So I want to bring up that point because we like the Lakers. playing fast, right? We like their approach. But the starting lineups and the rotations have been a little interesting, which brings us to Luke Walton. How do we feel about the job that Luke Walton has done in the

rotations, just the way that he's managing these guys? You know, I can totally understand starting Rondo and KCP there, the veteran players. To start to see, it's early, it's early, and these things tend to evolve over time. And it might be the guys that LeBron's more comfortable with

right now. I mean, Lonselwald missed time, because of the knee surgery, in terms of developing chemistry, and in the relationship Piaz with Rondo, maybe it was more about putting together the guys that are most comfortable with each other. And if that's the case, like, totally get it. But like, if you're playing, if you're building a lineup on paper, which is essentially what I'm saying, starting Hart and, Hart and Lonzo, I can't find many reasons to start the lineup that they did. And maybe things settle into place over the course of the season. And I think one of the other things we didn't mention Gons is in terms of rotations, Ingram and LeBron, I think, need to be

staggered because Ingram, sacrifice needs to be made when you're playing alongside LeBron James, and LeBron isn't touching the ball as much as he did in Cleveland, or Miami for that matter, but Engram is a guy who, at 6'5-9 is a really good playmaker. He can handle the ball. He needs more opportunity, and

maybe it's staggering him and LeBron that elevates that bench unit. Yeah, the bench definitely could use an extra boost. Last thing on the Lakers than I want to talk about the Rockets, you and I were very bullish on them preseason. I had them third in the Western Conference. I think you had them somewhere, You had them third two.

Over 50 wins or 50 plus. We're still on them, right? You're still on them. Definitely. All right, no back and down. I'm not back around. I want you to stick. You and I are riding with this.

It's like LeBron says, instant oatmeal. They've got LeBron. I checked and I rechecked. All right, to the Rockets, they're one and two. They fell to the clippers. They're playing fast.

They're not playing defense nearly as well as they did last year. They were an excellent defense interview unit a year ago, which is really what propelled them to the league's best record. This year, not looking like that. Yeah. And, you know, I think. think it's very easy to say, oh, you know, they lost Trevor Risa, Luke Ba'Aumute, and they replaced those guys with James Ennis and Carmelo Anthony and Michael Carter Williams. I'm like, yeah, that's true.

Like, that's going to hurt their defense. But, you know, when I was researching for an article I wrote this weekend, some of the games were against Houston. And, like, you see videos of their defense. And it's like a reminder of like, geez, it's not just the personnel that's worse. Their communication right now is just not there. They're not communicating, like, backcuts or screens happening off ball. Like, there's just a lot of misconduct. communication with this team. It's the same thing you just mentioned with the Lakers Gons. You know, it's not instant oatmeal for them.

And for Houston, maybe it's getting all these new guys integrated, developing chemistry. It's going to take time because that first season went in, Tony, defensively, was not what it was last year. So maybe this year will be a step back unless they're able to develop that over the course of the year. It's going to take time because they're not close. No. And you know what?

Through the first couple of games, Chris Paul was by far their best player. And, you know, you saw his loss last night. when they lost to the clippers, I mean, they needed that extra play. They needed, for all the things that you want to say

about Chris Paul, lack of communication, not among his problems. He's an over-communicator. So they definitely missed that part. And then you're forced to play, like you said, you're forced to play

a Michael Carter-Williams who doesn't really fit their system. I mean, he's not a distant shooter. He can't get to line, although he didn't get to the line last night. Definitely not a distant shooter. Here's another thing.

The Houston Rockets, who love to shoot threes, also love to get to the line. They only shot 15. free throws against the clippers. I mean, they've had some issues there, too. Clippers look pretty solid. When we say against the clippers, it's like, wow, they struggled against the clippers, but they look pretty solid so far. I'm going to make a point because Isaac will get mad at me. This is not an indictment of the clippers. I'm just saying,

like, had they performed that way against any team, I know. I would be like, oh, they only shut 15 free throws. That's highly unusual for the rockets. For sure. How do you feel about the, like, there was, in terms of win total, KOC, an expected regression? for the Rockets this season. They won 65 and they're over under wind total, I think, was 56. Yeah, off the top of my head, it was like 50s. I thought that that was way low.

I would have happily taken the over. I still would take the over. I still would take the over. There's still the Rockets. They still have two top tier players in the NBA. However, should we expect a little regression here? Yeah, totally. I mean, especially in the win column.

I mean, 65 wins is hard to do, right? I think around 55 wins is fair. for them. I think in the Western Conference, what could happen this year is you have a couple more teams that were in that 46 to 48 range bump up to 50, and the Rockets and Warriors both lose a couple wins. That's what I think could end up having in terms of the wind calm. So I think, yeah, there could be regression in that sense, and maybe their net rating is worse. Maybe their defense is worse. Maybe their offense isn't quite as high powered as it was last season in terms of league rank. They could regress for sure. Are they still the second best team in the Western Conference? Yeah. So you're still on board. I wouldn't put Denver over. No panicking. I mean, I think Denver looks so good. Sure, Denver looks fantastic.

Like, you know, when Nicole Yokic, they're improved defense, they're deep. They can play different styles. They are a really, really exciting team. But I wouldn't put them ahead of Houston yet because even though Houston is struggling defensively and they're not quite the same so far, they still have the personnel to have a great defense. They still have PJ Tucker super versatile. They still have Clint's Capella, a great run protector. Chris Paul, one of the better.

perimeter defensive point guards in the league. They still have guys on their roster that can defend. Known defensive stopper, Carmelo Anthony, still on the team. Yeah, Melo. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. I think it's telling that we spent, I don't know, however many minutes we've been doing

this podcast so far, over 30 minutes. A podcast has been predominantly about the Lakers and the Rockets. And that's really the first time that we've mentioned Carmelo Anthony for basketball purposes, and it was to mock him. I continue to be surprised by his fit on this team. he played 27 minutes against the clippers. He hasn't scored in double figures yet. He's been a minus in every single game.

How do you feel about Carmelo? I'm sticking with my preseason evaluation that it's a fascinating experiment where this guy has played a mid-range, you know, pull-up styles, entire life, going back to high school. And now suddenly he's in the most extreme system in the NBA and needs to fit in and they need to work to fit him in. I think it can work. He's a good spot-up shooter.

And in times of need, he can get a bucket for you at the end of the clock. If you're going to go to him over Hardin and Paul, I don't know. But in situations where Paul is suspended or one of those guys is out, Paul has not always been the healthiest player. True.

Carmelo, I think, can offer something for your team. The problem is the fact that their defense overall is just bad right now. That's not just because of Mello. Overall, it's been bad. He can't now, see, like in theory, defense aside, because you're not going to get anything out of them defensively. But in theory, he shoots a three. He shot the second most threes in Oklahoma City last year

after Paul George out of necessity because they didn't have any three-point shooters, but he can't do that. Still don't. But I'm saying for Houston, when that second unit is playing and he's coming off the bench and you need offense, like Carmelo can bring you scoring, right? Like, in theory, you'd go, okay, well, just go get buckets, Mello and we'll take you out after like 20, 25 minutes, whatever. But so far, a net minus for Mello. The tough part, you know, I had a conversation with a couple exacts and coaches before this, like before the season. And it's like, sometimes I feel like even just giving it a chance, like I am with Mello,

seems silly because it's like the opportunity for him to make up for his defensive weaknesses is not there because he's behind Hardin and Paul in the total of Paul. It's also behind Eric Gordon for that matter too in terms of guys who are going to get touches. Eric Gordon is a really good player. So Carmelo is maybe the fourth scoring option on the team. Oh, yeah, easily. Is the opportunity there for him on the offensive end to make up for what is always horrible defense? I don't know.

It might not be. Something to monitor as we continue with the Rockets. Also, the Lakers, a lot to pay attention to. KOC has lots of stuff up on the ringer.com, including takeaways from the first week of the NBA season. Be sure to check that out. KOC will be back tomorrow on the NBA show, The Mismatch. The Mismatch. The Nguyen, the newly named Mismatch with Chris Vernon.

Be sure to check that out. KOC. Thank you. Thank you, Gons. All right, that was KOC. He's excellent. He'll be back on Tuesday's podcast. But now I'm very excited for this.

making his debut. Let's bring in Dan Devine. Boom, Shakalaka. He's heating up. All right, joining me on the other line. This is very exciting. He's never been on the Heat Check podcast. He's never been on, I don't believe, any NBA podcast here at the Ringer,

but he's going to be on quite a few moving forward. Our brand new staff writer from NYC, Dan Devine is here. John, it is a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me on. Blessing was right. Blessing is good. It's a blessing. It's a privilege.

It's a pleasure. It's all of those things wrapped up into one. It's very exciting to have you on the staff. You've already made your mark. You're writing all kinds of stuff on the ringer.com. Make sure to check Dan out. You've got stuff up there now, right? What do you got up there?

Yeah, well, so the first thing this morning, the new thing is sort of on what's up with the thunder. They dropped to O and 3 after Sunday night and kind of try to take the temperature of, is it sort of a little too early to get worried about them, or are the issues that they're facing so far, ones that should be caused for concern moving forward? It's almost like you knew you were going to come on a podcast,

and so you blogged about something that we could discuss. Let's start with the Thunder. WTF, Thunder, fell to 0 and 3. They get Russ back. I don't know what's going on there. I love Paul George. I think he's a very talented player. He's been a streaky shooter so far in the early going here in the NBA season.

Dennis Schrooter is, I guess, their third best player. What do you think about the Thunder so far? Well, I think the big sort of concern right now is just that obviously the first two games you don't have Russell Westbrook. So getting him back is supposed to kind of supercharge the offense. It reinject a sense of normalcy, which is just a sense of normalcy, which is just that. is sort of weird to think about a player like Russell Westbrook, re-injecting normalcy into any situation, but it kind of puts the thunder back in a position where, okay, we know what we are. We run everything through Russ.

We run everything else through George. Schroeder comes in and is sort of the sixth man, you know, another attacker driving downhill. And then everything else is just defense and dudes, right? Like, long arms athletes. Defense and dudes is the perfect way to explain the thunder. There was the version of them that was supposed to make sense last year before the Carmelo trade kind of grafted on apart at the end. and that was sort of the identity they were supposed to have.

And then it got sort of upset a little bit last season. They never really got comfortable. Everyone went into this season thinking this is who we're supposed to be. Then Russ gets hurt. Then Andre Robertson gets hurt again. Then all of a sudden you're starting Terrence Ferguson in the back court alongside Schroeder. And like nothing. Is that bad?

It might not be a great thing so far. It is definitely not a great thing when Terrence Ferguson is missing 13 of his first 15 shots. So you wind up with sort of the situation where now the identity we thought we were supposed to have. it's no longer really what we're doing and we've got to figure it all out on the fly. Instead of having that continuity, that sort of uniformity of purpose, you're like, you're searching and you're struggling and then you wind up searching and struggling against Sacramento, which is never where you want to be. No, and you know what, Sacramento's betterish, I guess, than they've been previously.

Certainly, Deeran Foxes looked pretty good, but I, like, I was kind of surprised to see the Kings get past, okay, see, especially with Russ back. And I guess, like, you know, he's got to knock a little bit of the rust off. Fine. But how much of this is on Billy Donovan, too, because, like, you know, Billy Donovan's got to figure out a way to put all these pieces together. And, like, they probably, they definitely didn't have enough shooting last year. When you've got Paul George and Carmelo Anthony is your primary three-point shooters,

you don't have enough shooting. You don't have enough shooting again this year. However, some of the culpability falls with Billy Donovan, does it not? I think so. I think, you know, we've had this conversation a few times and sort of different iterations of the thunder of, like, well, you have all these ingredients that sort of seem like they're pretty good and seem like they fit together really well. Why isn't the coach being more inventive with it?

We heard that with Scott Brooks. We heard that about staggering lineups with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook in them. And, you know, how do you get a more effective sort of mix? And now you're hearing it with Billy Donovan as well, where it's like, well, there are, there's talent here, but how do you make the most out of it? And how do you find sort of the right rotations? How do you find the best and most effective lineups? A lot of the questions that you find yourself asking with sort of worse teams that are still figuring themselves out. And those early, oh, the preseason injuries kind of put OKC behind that same kind of eight ball.

Like, they don't know exactly what the best perimeter. group around Russes because they're sort of having to figure out on the fly. And if you're not going to get performance from those individual pieces as they go, like the thought process was, yeah, Carmelo Anthony goes out. That opens up minutes at the four for Patrick Patterson, who's more of a sort of traditional stretch four. It opens up more minutes at the four for Jeremy Grant, who has, you know, continuing to evolve his game.

They re-signed him on a, yeah, they re-signed him. Yeah. He gave him $27 million as sort of an idea that he's going to be continuing to evolve a already a really good defender energy guy for them, but is going to continue to stretch out his game. And to start the season, neither one of them has been able to effectively knock down perimeter shots. So then you're not really getting any stretch from the four. You're not getting any stretch from the five with Stephen Adams and Nerlans-Noel in there. And then if you're swingmen, the sort of other shooters, the guys that are not Paul George on the wing, Ferguson, Alex

Sabrina's, the rookie Amadu Diallo, if all of those guys are not knocking down shots, all of a sudden you have like no bankable shooting in the lineup. And I don't care how good a driver, Russell Westbrook is, I don't care how effective a ball handler and a pick and roll playmaker Paul George can be. If they don't have any space to drive into and if they don't have any shooters knocking down shots on the other end of the passes, the offense is going to look like it's in sort of a rested development. And I think that's the concern moving forward here is if those shooters, those sort of complementary pieces, don't start warming up. It doesn't matter if Russ and PG can combine for 60 points every night because the rest of the roster is not going to be

able to make up on the back end. Yeah, not only, not only do they have the worst point differential in the Western Conference. They have the second worst point differential in the entire NBA. It has not been a good start for the Oklahoma City Thunder. I want to just rapid fire roll through a bunch of other ones because, you know, I had this whole friggin show planned and then the Lakers and the Rockets had to go and fight each other. We were going to do this thing where we were going to run through the whole NBA with you and some other people on the on the Ringer staff. And instead, we got way laid by the Rockets and the Lakers. So I want to like rapid fire through a couple other teams here. Let's keep it in the Western Conference.

the Denver Nuggets and Nicola Yokic. Nicola Yokic had one of the most efficient triple doubles in recent memory the other night. He looks absolutely amazing and also shots to the doughy body getting buckets. I mean, personally, I feel very much a kinship with anybody with a doughy body getting buckets. Like not necessarily my game, I'm more of a screen setter and plotter, but when I see somebody else elevating beyond what their sort of physical stature should indicate, I'm always a big fan of that. So yes, shouts to Nicole Yokish. yourself short. Like on the ringer's

staff of doughy bodies, you can get up there. It's really impressive. That's why we brought you in. I mean, it's maybe a market inefficiency. You know, you were talking with Jason Concepcion last week about sort of thick as the new movement, thick players is a movement. It's a mood

and the feeling. Thick bloggers. Thick bloggers, too, yeah. It's maybe an oxymoron in some context. But yeah, so that's, I think, you know, Yokich has obviously been phenomenal to start the season. Hardily recommend anybody that hasn't checked out. Jonathan Charks's piece on Yokich and kind of how he got to

where he is and where he is at right now for the Nuggets. Check that out. That's good cross-promotion. Well, I mean, it was one of the best things I read last week, so I'm a big fan of of sharing the ball there. The thing that's most fun to me about the Nuggets in the early going is they are a great fun with small sample sizes team because right now, they have the number one defense in the NBA. The Denver Nuggets are allowing 92.9 points per 100 possessions.

Amazing. By far the number one in the league, that's obviously going to come down there. You know, they had a blowout win over the weekend. They've performed really well in small minutes here, but they're doing a really good job of grabbing the defensive rebounds, number two in the league in defensive rebound rate. They do have some wing pieces that can get out there and move on to bodies guys like Gary Harris.

Their small lineup that they've been running out with Will Barton at the three, that was an awesome lineup for them last year in pretty small minutes. And right now it's, again, the best lineup in the five-man unit in the league, outscoring opponents by 29 points in the 46 minutes it's played. Last year it was plus 53 and 65 minutes. So, like, they feel like they've found something with that lineup. Part of why they trade Wilson Chandler, part of why they re-sign Barton put him into the starting five. They feel like they've got a mix that really works alongside Yoakic and Paul Millsap up front.

So whether that can sustain, it sort of remains to be seen. But they feel like they've really found something there and that sort of help get them off to a really hot start. Yeah, they've been a pleasant surprise. Incidentally, as a quick aside, that was excellent number work by you. You were like Russell Crow in a beautiful mind there. That was very good. But in terms of, like, surprises for the Western Conference, The Noggets obviously at the top of your list.

Not far behind them or right next to them. The New Orleans Pelicans come in and are just shooting the lights out. Nico Mertich has been on fire from three. I said before the season started that I wasn't sure about long term the fit with him and Julius Randall and Anthony Davis because those are three of your four best players with Drew Holiday. But you've got three bigs where I was like, I don't know, is Julius Randall going to stretch the floor? He's going to be able to shoot and like, are you playing him in crunch time with those other three guys? So far so good.

They look amazing, the pelicans. Absolutely. I mean, Randall doesn't, he's not going to be a high volume shooter for them, but he's, you know, made three of his first six three-pointers. So, you know, if he can at least have the threat of doing that with a wide open floor completely spaced out because the other shooting around them, you know, playing pick and roll, you know, being able to sort of take, step into open shots. You know, that's a bonus. And what they really want out of him more than anything else is they want him to be grabbing the ball off the rim and rampaging down the other end, putting a shoulder into somebody and getting a layup. They really, they feel like he fits their transition game to a team. He's so much fun when he's got the ball in open space when he's bringing it up the floor and then all of a sudden like the court opens up for him and for them and it's like it's fun to watch. Absolutely. And it's like he sort of hits a warp speed or something like that. You know, a dude that big shouldn't be able to get out that quickly. But that's kind of also like the general operating principle of the Pelicans as it is.

Like guys that big shouldn't be able to move like that. Anthony Davis is like that. Nicole Amiritich, I'll be honest with you. I didn't realize or I didn't know from watching him in Chicago. he could move as well as he has, especially on the defensive end, since he went over to the Pelicans. And I think that my take, such as it is one, is that I'm skeptical that they'll ever be able to get those three guys on the floor together for meaningful minutes in a way that's going to be positive.

But any combination of two of the three can stretch you out, can bully you inside, can switch defensive matchups, and can rebound the ball. And, like, you know, you might lose rim protection if you're out there with Miratech and Randall, but there's really a lot you can do with any comprehensive. of those three guys. And if they're getting a healthy Drew holiday and they're getting even sort of complimentary play from the wings, you know, each one more is not, you know, a world beater on his own, but he's solid. If you get some solid minutes from Solomon Hill, if you get solid minutes from Darius Miller, like all of a sudden, and I mean, Alfred Payton has been a really

pleasant surprise early early too. I was not high on that signing, but no, if he can do sort of like a 75% poor man's rondo. Yeah, like a 75% Rondo impression without spitting on anybody, then I think that's a real win for them. Don't punch anybody in your head of the game. The Pelicans are, I would say a pleasant surprise. I had them in my playoff picture. I didn't expect them to come out with Nico Meritich, just absolutely scorching people from the arc.

I did expect the Utah Jazz to be good this year. And if not for Jonas DeRebco's tip-in against them, they would be 2-0 and they could have pulled out a win against the Golden State Warriors. The Jazz have looked really good as well. They have, and it's been kind of interesting, is that they have been, they've looked really good without being like that hammer lockdown defense, right?

You know, I mean, obviously pace matters, but you give up, you know, over, well over 100 points in both of the first two games there. And sort of what's counteracted that has been that the offense has been, has looked really good. 123 in both games, I believe, you know, Joe Engels is lights out from the floor right now. He's, you know, crushing it, I think, 65% from three.

Yes, that's a very important point because I don't think people appreciate how efficient he is with that three-point shot. I mean, not to say he's automatic out there, but he's really just very consistent and solid for them and like an underrated efficient three-point shooter. Absolutely, you know, up near the top of the league and inaccuracy the last few years. And right now he's 11 for 17 in his first two games. So yeah, that'll work. The issue, I think, issue maybe isn't the right word.

But going forward, you know, you're going to expect that Donovan Mitchell after his phenomenal rookie season and after all the attention that was paid to it and sort of the coming out party in the postseason, he's going to get more defensive attention than he did. last year, at least in the early going. Teams are not going to be taken by surprise by the fact that he's going to be the lead ball handler. He's going to be the pick and roll creator, and he's going to try to get all the way to the basket. So he's, and he's talked about this already.

Like, I'm seeing more physical defense. There's sort of more bodies in line to stop me, said to, uh, Eric Woodyard of the Desert News, I'm trying to make something out of nothing instead of making the simple play. And that has translated into 34% shooting through two games, uh, 32% from the three point arc. They just kind of need him to trust in the,

in that pass. a little bit more than he, like he did last season, and a little bit more than he has in the early going, because 22 shots for 21 points is not the recipe they want from him. Yeah, I'm going to slow you down there. You're on the heat check podcast. There will be no Don Mitchell Slander on this show. So whatever you're getting at there, Isaac, just cut that out.

And if he ever says anything, just bleep it out. So I think you were saying Donovan Mitchell's amazing and he's going to be fine. Also in the Western Conference, before we move on to the Eastern Conference, I keep talking about teams that have been fun and surprising so far. Top of my list. Like earlier a couple of episodes ago, we did our league pass watchability rankings slash draft, and I should have taken the Sons way higher. They are, they come out, like Devin Booker at 21 years old, has taken another step forward.

And D'Andre Aiden, the first game, probably a little bit better than the second game. Defensively, he hasn't looked quite as good. We expected that offensively, gangbusters. The Sons are fun. Yeah, in a sort of a past life, I wrote about the good bad teams or the fun bad teams, and they were right up the top of that list for me. And I feel like the combination of youth trying to sort of figure it out, you know, talent in search of direction, a good or a well-regarded assistant coach in Igor Kukoshkov,

like sort of coming in and getting to mold that crew. And just sort of the firepower that was there made them a really enticing early season watch. And you've seen that. I mean, obviously they got smashed in Denver. and that was kind of interesting and fun too, saying, like, opening night against the Mavs, we're all wondering, like, well, how soon is it until D'Andre Aiton's like an All-Star conversation? Because, you know, 18, 10, and 6, the second coming of David Robinson, and then he goes in, he meets up with Nicole Yokic and he gets absolutely dominated.

Not as good. Not as good, but that's going to happen, you know, and, but the sort of broad strokes for them are kind of true to what they were hoping for. The general idea of that starting lineup, like, we go get Trevor Arezo, we go get Ryan Anderson, they space the floor around Aiton and Booker. We get Isaiah Cannon to be a sort of more of a complimentary shooter alongside Booker. That lineup so far is a positive. It makes sense.

That lineup has also been a positive when you put Josh Jackson there in place of Isaiah Cannon, another sort of ball handler but wing player. The idea of everything's going to be about the two-man game with Aiton and Booker, and then we're going to spread the floor around it and sort of try to compliment that has looked really good so far. I mean, it's not, it's going to remain to be seen how effective. the young guys can sort of hold up as the season goes on, but the principles, the basic sort of general idea, seems like it's making sense. You mentioned Kukashkov. I really like,

in the preseason, everybody was like fretting and hand-wringing, clutching their pearls about, oh my God, what are they going to do? They don't, the sons don't have a point guard. And the idea of Devin Booker just let him be your main lead guard and go and play is something that the ringer staff has advocated for quite some time right now. And Kukashkov's system is perfect for that. It's great. Like, just let him go be Devin Booker and take that and that stuff. He has been on fire. He looks fantastic.

Absolutely. And the idea for what that might look like, the primary comparison was James Harden, right? What he looked like when he got the ball in Houston. And I did a quick look this morning just to see through a couple of games what the time of possession has looked like for Devin Booker. Because, you know, that's a measurement of how long you have the ball, basically, right? It's exactly what it sounds like. And so last year, he was 34th in the league, a little under five minutes of possession in a game. now he's 11th a little under six minutes.

So he's not quite up at that like Harden, Westbrook, primary number one dominant ball handler level, but he's making a run up that ranking, and it's because of the way the system sort of slots him in. And if you're able to sort of occupy that role and produce as effectively as he has, I think it's a total win for what they hope to be building in Phoenix. Quickly, who's the second best team in the Western Conference?

Obviously the warrior is still on top, but if you had to pick one right now. I still think it's Houston. I think they're going to figure this out. Obviously, I'm very concerned about the way the defense looks after they've gotten roasted pretty roundly of the first three games. But that's also kind of true of everybody in the league right now. Everybody's trying to catch their breath because the pace is so crazy. And there really have been very few teams that have stopped anybody.

I trust that talent and that, you know, the coaching staff under Mike Dantone to figure it out. I also trust Daryl, if things are not going well to, you know, make the bold move and try to swing for the fences because this is the opportunity. So I think that's still going to be the second. best team. But I think the jazz, what the jazz have shown on offense is encouraging because I believe their defense is going to come around. Yeah, I'd probably go Rockets too. Although with everything that we just said in this segment, I basically have everybody in the Western Conference as the second best team. So I'm very excited about the Western Conference. I want to talk about the Eastern Conference briefly before we let you go. The Raptors, as advertised, looked really good against Celtics.

They're 3 and 0. They've won all their games. Kauai's come out. They have lots of options in the front court that they can shift around with Nick Nurse, with Jonas and Serge and Seacom. Kyle Lowry's looked good, OG's looked good, Raptors as advertised. Absolutely. And sort of the versatility of that, where Sir Jabaka can go and be your reserve center, right? He can go back up off the bench.

He doesn't have to play Power Forward all the time. Surge Abaka still out there doing stuff. He's got a little old man, well, he's always had an old man game to him in a way, even when he was blocking shots. And I expected him to sort of fall off a little bit. He's looked good. Absolutely.

And, you know, he might be one of those players where less is morph, right? I mean, the minute, are still high. It's about 29, 30 minutes a game, but if the role is sort of simplified and more complimentary as opposed to expecting him to be featured in some ways, it slots in comfortably to where he's supposed to be. Danny Green, you know, the numbers are never going to wow you, 10 points a game, 38% shooting, but the willingness to fire from three, the way that space is everything out, the ability to switch three or four different positions on defense on a given possession, the way that he can sort of get out and transition on offense to fill the lanes

and then also come back and stop a fast break. It's these weapons that sort of, they don't seem like weapons necessarily. You don't imagine him being a valuable piece, but then you're out there and you see that every lineup they've got that's got him in it is performing really well, and he can defend pretty much anybody you need to defend on a given possession. So like the number of options with that wing core of Kauai and Green and Pascal Siakum and Ogeanubi, even sort of further down the roster where you get to, you know, C.J. Miles and Norman Powell, there are bodies there. There are guys who can play credible NBA basketball on both ends of the floor at the wing positions that Like every team in the league needs those guys, and the Raptors have about a half dozen of them.

So we haven't, and I think it's fair to say, we still haven't seen the best of Kawhi Leonard, maybe whatever he is 70%, 75%, whatever. It's still a good enough right now to be the best player on the floor against a lot of teams, even against the team as good as Boston. Well, I think that the win for Toronto against Boston meant more to the Raptors than it would have meant to the Celtics. I think, like, getting that confidence and picking up that game clearly was like a night. early season win for them. For the Celtics, Brad Stevens was like, yeah, it looks

like October basketball, and it was sort of just laughing it off, and they're going to be fine. They're so loaded. They have such a fantastic coach. I hate lauding the Boston Celtics on this program. We do enough of that at the ringer. However, I do think that, like, they're still trying to figure it out. You see some growing pains there

and sort of like trying to reincorporate Kyrie and Gordo, especially with Kyrie. Like, those first two games, Kyrie didn't really look like Kyrie. He didn't shoot a single free throw. And one of the main things, one of the main skill sets to his game is, you know, he creates off the dribble, he can obviously shoot well. But when he needs to get to the line and get some easy points, he does that well, and he did that in the third game and bless him forward, he's starting

to figure it out. But early on, I was like, what version of Kyrie is this? They would just had him standing in the corner most of the time. Yeah, and I think part of that is just that the legs aren't there yet, right? You know, coming off the surgery, off the rehab, you know, I mean, Kyrie Irving's not a guy who shoots 34% from the field and 14% from three. So the legs aren't into the shot. The drive isn't there. The explosiveness isn't there. I think, you know, as he gets more into sort of game readiness, you'll see some of that start to bounce back. But you're absolutely right. The Celtics are basically a rolling laboratory right now. They've got nine guys averaging 15 minutes or more per game because Stevens is trying to figure out,

you know, how do I sort of line change at this point? You know, is it two separate units? Who, you know, who's in chart in the second unit? What's the best application for Gordon Hayward right now? Because do you want to have him sort of being put into a second unit role where he's, say, we're going to feed you shots, we're going to feed you the ball, we're going to let you sort of work that rust off? Or is what makes the most sense getting him in the starting five and saying, we're going to put our best players around you so that the burden on you is lower. So then you don't have to be as much of a creator. You can sort of work your way into shape, work your way into rhythm. And obviously, they're planning to go that second route because he started

the first two games that he played. But there's sort of a lot of, there's a lot, so many moving pieces. And it's like the blessing and curse of a loaded team that there are so many guys that you can trust to get the job done. And you know you're going to have enough to get over the finish line at the end of the season, but you've got to sort of figure out what the best combinations of those guys are to get there. And so that's why I think you see, you know, Stevens will laugh off a win or a game like Friday night against Toronto, but it's because he's in the constant process of trying to figure out who fits best with who. So just to summarize on your behalf there, what I heard was too much going on for the Celtics going to be really bad moving forward.

Crisis, crisis, crisis. Right. Fire Stevens. All right. Last one for you. And I want to warn you here in the same way that I warned you about Don Mitchell of what program you're on. Quickly about the 76ers, they barely beat the magic. They're trying to fold in faults who they're treating like Rudy, go and read Paloogetti's story on the ringer.com about that.

And Bede had a funny, funny quote about they need JJ Reddick to provide offense for them because clearly they lack shooters and JJ is their best like just pure scoring option in a lot of ways. But he said, I wish JJ was 24 years old so he could be together 10, 15 years. But he's old as shit.

So shouts to oldest shit ringer podcast or JJ Reddick. Where are you on the Sixers right now? In a holding pattern? And I don't know if this is going to get me bleeped or banned. Probably both. But go ahead. Well, I'm pretty sure this is the only... I'm not sure that I'm banned yet on the other Sixers podcast that you guys talk about, a fair amount.

We'll get you there. We'll get you there. And I will say the name. The right, Cirque Sanchez. There you go. But what I would say is, I mean, they're so... Similarly, we were talking about sort of the early season flux. We don't know what's up with Wilson Chandler yet.

We don't really know what's up with Mike Muscala yet. Jared Bayless is obviously not an important part of the team, but he's a guy that, you know, would be a theoretical shooter sort of in the back court that you would need if you're looking for more spacing. Simmons had the back tightness at the end of Saturday's game. There's like, there's all these sort of moving pieces where it's like, what is the best, the consistent best lineup we can throw out there? We think we know the answer is the starting lineup that ran out last season. It was one of the best in the NBA with Reddick at the two alongside Simmons with, you know, and beat up front. Obviously, though, you know, this is

an organizational understanding. Brett Brown is saying we're going to start faults. We are going to imbue him with the confidence to succeed. We're going to show him that we believe in him. It might seem almost condescending on the back end of it sometimes, but this is what we're really going to try to do, throw everything in there and see sort of how he responds to it. It's looked fits in starts e. It's looked a little ugly and you could see the gears grinding

and you can see the wheels turning in everybody's head. But this is the idea. We have to do this now and go through the growing pains now so that down the line we have these three most important young pieces of our team all moving in the right direction and at the same speed. Right now you can pretty clearly see that Fultz is not at the speed that Simmons and Embed need to be. Whether or not he can get there is going to be like the big determining factor of what's

up with the Sixers this season. Yeah, I have my concerns about that. I mean, like whenever he's looking for a jump shot, he runs straight to the nail or straight to the elbow, which is something that he drilled a lot during the offseason. So I wonder if he can like stretch out from that. I thought that the Bulls game when he got to just go and fuck around and take 15 shots. Like at this point right now, I'm looking at how. how many field goal attempts he's taking, how many three-pointers he's taking.

I just want him to shoot it, and then we'll go from there and see how it goes. But I think that that's, you know what, like I was a little worried about your take on the Sixers, but we'll give you a passing grade on that for the show on the whole, though. A plus effort for Dan Devine on his first ever heat check podcast. We're going to have him back. Make sure to read him on the ringer.com. Dan, thank you. Gons, thank you.

Again, a blessing, a pleasure, and I look forward to doing it a lot more often. All right. We'll have you back. See you. All right, that was Dan Devine. I want to thank him. I want to thank Jason, Palo. KOC, of course, Isaac Lee.

I want to thank all of you for listening to the NBA show. Please, if you wouldn't mind, remember to rate and review us on Apple. And be sure to check out the rest of our NBA shows all week long. We've got the mismatch with KOC on Verno on Tuesday. We've got Sources Say with Juliet and Chris Ryan on Wednesday. Group chat. We've got the brand new, newly named, and I love this name. Corner 3 on Friday with Charks and Danny.

and Chaos. Chaos. He's on like 12 podcasts now, including this one, but he does an excellent job, so be sure to check all of those guys, as well as the rest of our content on the Ringer podcast network. We appreciate you listening to Heat Check. We'll be back next week on Monday. See you.