The Ringer NBA Show - Lakers Trade Russell Westbrook for D’Angelo Russell. Plus, LeBron Is the New Points King! | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos give their instant reactions to the three-team trade between the Lakers, Timberwolves, and Jazz (01:25). They discuss whether the addition of D’Angelo Russell, Malik Beasley, and Jarred Vanderbilt makes the Lakers significantly better and discuss the trades from the perspectives of Utah and Minnesota. After, they discuss LeBron James passing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as the all-time scoring leader in regular season history (23:29). They discuss James’s performance, his impact, and how he’s exceeded expectations since his days as a high school phenom. Then, they talk about the trade markets for Kevin Durant (57:25) and Chris Paul (75:29) and predict who will be dealt by Thursday’s deadline (80:13). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo *The Ringer NBA squad is coming to Salt Lake City for NBA All-Star Weekend! Get your tickets here!* Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league. And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

Hello and welcome to group chat. Again, I am Justin Barrier and joining me again is Rob Mahoney and Big Was. We were out here on a Wednesday night making dinner. Waz was spatch cocking, but we have been called back into duty for an emergency trade. Rob, hit the siren. There we go. We recorded an episode earlier today that the GC heads might have already consumed. So we appreciate y'all who did.

It was a very delightful episode. which you could still listen to after, in full, after this episode. I recommend it. LeBron James broke this scoring record. Kevin Durant might be traded at the deadline. A lot of good stuff here. But first, we need to talk about the three-teen deal that just went down Wednesday night between the Lakers, Timberwolves, and Jazz.

You guys ready for the details? Yeah, I mean, we're just following LeBron's lead, trying to get off more takes in one podcast than anyone ever has in history before. There you go. And so as far as we know right now, the Lakers are receiving DeAngelo Russell, Malik Beasley, Rob's favorite shooting guard, Jared Vanderbilt, the Minnesota Timberwolves are receiving Mike Conley, Nikiel Alexander Walker, and three second round picks. The Jazz get Russell Westbrook, or at least the specter of Russ, or at least Russell's name on the back of a jersey that they could then sell to the secondary market. want Descano Anderson, Damian Jones, and the very coveted 2027 Lakers first round pick in, it is one to four protected. Wise, first blush, my spash, batch cocking friend.

What do you think about this deal? I love it for all parties who aren't the Lakers. I just have to believe that they could have done something better at the point than DeAngel Russell. You guys know how I feel about this guy. I felt like he's been overrated his entire career. He played two and a half months of good ball in Brooklyn, made it as the very last person on an all-star team.

And people kept calling him all-star player, DeAngelo Russell. He was used as sort of fodder in the KD deal that sent KD to Brooklyn on a side and trade from Golden State. Golden State got him in their building. They could not wait to unload him. In fact, people don't remember this, but Andrew Wiggins' trade stock and, like, his commodity, he was a zero. He was a nothing. He was seen as overpaid.

He was seen as a knucklehead, a bus, somebody who wasn't going to live up to his hype as a prospect coming in and his damn contract as an NBA player. And that's who they got in return for DeAngelo Russell. He's just been way better ever since. And, you know, I think last year in the playoffs, you kind of saw what this dude is. He can make a couple of shots here and there, maybe get hot. But aside from that, he is not a great pick and roll player. He's terrible at getting to the cup. He is about as slow as molasses coming around screens,

trying to break dudes down one-on-one. And he's one of the worst defensive players at his position in the entire league. However, the other two guys that are coming in, Jared Vanderbilt and Malik Beasley, who I like, and I know Justin does too, even though Rob. thinks he's a bum, those guys actually make sense is LeBron and AD players. So I like it.

And that's another thing with DeAngelo Russell. While he is a better fit than Russell Westbrook is with LeBron and AD, he's still not a great fit. He's just better than Russ was fit-wise. Like, he's not a great pick-in-roll player, as we mentioned. He doesn't guard people. Like, a lot of the times it's like,

oh, you expect the guys around LeBron, just be guarding people, chasing people around screens, maybe switching things, all of that. He's not going to do that. He's not going to generate quality offense when LeBron is taking a break from doing that for the Lakers. He's just a bad fit.

He's a bad player. And I think this is just a horrible deal for the Lakers. It's turned really quickly. After all that positivity, maybe we should talk about the downside for the Lakers too, just to balance it out. Now, I do think, look, it needs to be said.

DeAngelo Russell, very inconsistent player, has been playing his best basketball in the season by far over the last month. That version of that player, the one who has been playing off of Anthony Edwards, letting him cook, working off the ball even more, picking his spots.

That's a guy you can see next to LeBron James. Is DeAngelo Russell going to be that player all the time for the Lakers? Of course not. But over the last month, that guy is hitting 45% of his threes. And that is a meaningful thing for them, especially when, you know,

over that same stretch, Malik Beasley is hitting 32% of his threes. So, shooter in theory. Well, they've got two they have Reeves for, you know? Yes. I was like two shooters in theory and a rotation big in Jared Vanderbilt. Definitely a team that needed depth is getting some in this deal.

Listen, they're not trading for DeAngel Russell, superstar savior of the Lakers. This isn't the Kyrie Irving trade. And I think it's important to note what the Lakers are giving up in this deal, which is just one first round pick, which actually has protection. on it, which is a start from where they usually are in these sorts of negotiations. And Russell Westbrook's expiring contract, not only has Russ just been toxic throughout his pretty much entire

run there, but it seemed like things came to ahead last night during LeBron's big game, where he caused some sort of kerfuffle with the coaching staff. And so they're getting a lot of useful players for not giving up a lot. And I think that's good enough because as we've been saying, time and time and time again. The Lakers just need stuff around LeBron to be competent. They are not so far away that they need a Kyrie or even like a Mike Conley type, which it would be nice. I don't think they need any sort of major deal here in order to be back into the play-in-playoff mix. Well, I want to rewind for a second and highlight the idea of useful players for the Lakers, because I agree. These are three useful players. They're adding to

the rotation. You know, now as they're formed, you can see like a nine-man group starting to separate for them. You got LeBron and AD. You got Dilo. You got Dennis Schrooter. You have Beasley and Vanderbilt coming in.

And then like maybe Reeves and Hachamura and Beverly in, you know, to whatever extent you want to play those guys in whatever capacities you want to play them. All of that is well and good. I think the Lakers are clearly a deeper team than they were even a couple hours ago. I'm just not sure they're,

there are a meaningfully better one in any way. And I was expecting at least some more dramatic swing than DeAngelo Russell for them at this deadline. I thought they would make a play for somebody in between DeAngelo Russell and Kyrie Irving. It's a pretty wide spectrum of players and a lot of those guys are available. I thought they would be going a little bit farther

of the food chain, to be honest with you. So you're disappointed. I don't think this changes much of anything. Like if this is their team, if they aren't making subsequent deals between now and the deadline, I don't see a lot of evidence here that says this is a Lakers team that's going to, like, storm the play in and be really formidable. Could they do it?

Sure. Like, some of the teams that are ahead of them in the standings are pretty young. They could conceivably overtake them. I just don't see, like, a lot of forward momentum and confidence if this is your group. What kind of defense are these guys playing is what I'm saying? I mean, last night, I think there was a certain lack of effort on defense where, you know, again, it was just, and I'm talking about the game against the thunder. They just played about as piss poor effort-wise on defense. Let's just say theoretically that they're locked in defensively.

Like, they're still pretty thin. They're still pretty slow as far as moving your feet on defense perimeter-wise. Like, you're thin down low and you're slow in your wing defense, like point-of-attack defense. Like, the defense is just, yeah, AD can, you know, kill. himself and injure himself again into propping his group up, but it's just not a good defensive team still. And maybe, who knows, maybe I'll be proven wrong about that. And just offensively, I don't know, man.

I don't think DeAngelo Russell, like, compliments what Braun and AD bring in such a way that the level of offense is, like, noticeably and materially made way better from this deal. Well, I mean, he's been playing off of Anthony Edwards pretty well of late. And you would have to wonder if all he is doing is basically being a shooter off of LeBron when he needs to, which is at the start of games and in crunch time, and he just runs a second unit offense. That's not like a role that he can't fit.

Again, they're not asking him to be Kyrie Irving to hit the game winning shot in game seven of the NBA finals. And that's why I think I'm a little bit bullish on it because you're filling all the roles that you typically need around LeBron James. Should they be at this position where they're just trading for any live body in order to give LeBron something? Absolutely not. But they're already in this situation. That's sunk cost. And to get rotation players that fit the mold, not only of a LeBron James team, of a team that they've been going for with AD at the center, plus guys who do enough shooting, do enough a little bit of everything around that, I think it like, it fits like

the idea of the team. There's like a clear vision now for what's going on. And I think that's an appreciable upgrade of what they have. Like again, like I don't think we should be thinking about them on the same level as a Nuggets, a Celtics, any of these like world beating teams that are expected from the title. I think we should be thinking about competence and then we'll see what they could do from there. Well, so what does that mean in the Western Conference? Because there's 13 competent teams. If we include the Lakers, like is competence even getting you into the play in? If you look at this roster, head-to-head with even where the Jazz are now after this deal, are they better than a team like the Jazz?

Are they better than a team like Minnesota? Because both of those teams are ahead of them in the standings. I would say yes to the Jazz at the very least, because like motivations are completely different as this trade kind of borough. I think a lot of it honestly is going to come down to AD because they are going with the assumption that AD and LeBron plus stuff will be a recipe for success again. and AD has been hurt. I don't know what happened to him last night

in that Thunder game where he was just kind of loafing around. He needs to not only anchor that defense, but he needs to be the 30 and 14 guy. He has been pretty much throughout what, the past three months when he's been available. If that guy is there, I would bet on AD and LeBron.

At least to make the play in, that's not much, you know? It's only a couple games. I have a question just to spin it forward, just for Laker fans, because I don't want to sound too dary, but I want to ask you guys. I think it's too late for that, Was.

Fair. Does this move put them closer to being the type of team that can compete with the best teams in the conference after this season? That's a good question because the initial Russell is a free agent. Rui Hachamura is going interrestricted free agent. I guess you buy yourself some modicum of flexibility and that if some- They're going to re-sign Delo to come back next year? the alternative is you just gave up a first round pick to not bring it back.

Exactly. They're in the Kyrie Mab situation where it's like they're probably going to run out the string and see what happens in the offseason. If they can get anything better, go for it. But most likely this is going to be your team again next season plus maybe one or two other role players. Well, I think that is the forward-looking part of this

for the Lakers could be more optimistic, not because resigning to Angela Russell is some great boon. But if you can resign him for less than his current contract value, which is a little over $31 million. Spoiler alert, you probably will be able to do that. I'm just saying it only takes one team throwing a bag of money at Daniela Russell. I would expect that he's getting less than that.

But assuming that can happen, then you will have not only some remaining cap space to work with, but now you have these role player contracts you can package together and try to make one more subsequent deal. And so then it's whatever the final version of the team looks like, you have the core of LeBron and AD and Russell and potentially a fourth meaningful guy and then you're surrounding that

with whatever role players you can find. Maybe that's something. But for the time being, I just, I don't really see, I don't really see this working out super well over the next couple months. Why don't we talk about it from the Timberwolves POV?

They get Mike Conley, an adult in the room, basically. I think I had suggested this as a possible trade really early in the season just because when things were going south with Gobert, it just seemed like Deelot

was really the spot that they could upgrade that wouldn't cause them to somehow completely change their team, deal of towns, or they couldn't trade Gobert. So I really like this. Was, what do you think? I love it. Mike Conley, I said it before. Literally the only person on Utah who ever passed Rudy Gobert, the ball,

whoever looked for him consistently, ever developed any kind of chemistry with him on pick and roll was Mike Connolly. So I like that just as a way to sort of salvage what you're doing. as far as Rudy Gobert going forward, right? I like that idea. I think as a setup guy, he's not just Rudy. I think he's going to be good for setting up Ant. Hopefully, Ant develops better habits as far as moving off the ball and being a better cutter.

And Mike Connolly's the kind of guy you want to have around that. You guys mentioned he's an adult, and that's just true. And then, you know, it won't surprise anybody who's listening to hear me say this. He's better than DeLo. He's a better point guard. Right now today, then DiAngelo Russell is. So he's an upgrade at that. So, you know, temperamentally, I love him more.

Obviously, the stuff with Rudy, I love how he's going to elevate what Rudy's doing. And just he's an upgrade at the position. And, you know, it bears mentioning it. Like, DeAngel Russell, I'm sure he's grown as a person since he left the Lakers. He was a really young guy. So somebody posted the highlight of when he did the ice water in the veins. Like he really looks like he's 16 in that video clip. Like he's so much older now than he was then.

But man, like his reputation when he left here was that of a shithead to part, please part of my French. And so, you know, I hope all of that works out too. I do think he's matured in those capacities. But he wasn't the player that the Timberwolves needed. And Mike Conley is closer to that player for all the reasons we've gone through. And the one thing about the Timberwolves, we probably haven't talked about enough, is defensively they have started to show improvement.

and something like a lot of that has been with towns out of the lineup. But that part of the Gobert acquisition is starting to bear fruit, is starting to work out. And getting Kyle Anderson back into meaningful minutes has helped with that too. Offensively, they just haven't really figured out ever how to get Gobert of the ball, just like Utah couldn't. They haven't been able to get him in his spots where he can be effective. Conley has been the most effective guard at doing that. Russell never quite figured it out to the point that it always seemed like towns early in the season

and Anderson in these recent stages have been better about setting up Rudy than some of their guards have, have been better about like big to big lobs and big to big feeds. Now you have a guard element to play off with that as well. And so hopefully you're bringing all these pieces together

in a way that you can see this start to coalesce when Towns comes back. Now you have more of a facilitator point guard. Now you have more of a table setter. The only issue with the Conley acquisition for them is it's not very forward looking, right? Like Mike Conley's best days are behind him. And this is a team that ostensibly

needs to be carrying into whatever its next era is. The next three or four years are very important. My Conley might only be a part of those plans for one of them. Right. Once again, Tim Connolly making a win now move, which is surprising but considering how Pock amid the yard

to Rudy Gobert, I guess isn't too surprising. Let's talk about the jazz just quickly. It seems like pretty clear cut from their end. Just adding to the pile of picks here. But should we pour one out for our friend Russell Westbrook who likely heads into the buyout market after this.

There are some reports, as we're recording Chris Haynes, most prominently, that the clippers might be interested, the Bulls might be interested. Or was, do you think that the Jazz should just play Russell Westbrook and, like, let their fan base that has always greeted him so warmly, watch him for 20 more games this season? Look, I'll say this about Russ as horrible as it was last year. He was way better this year. Yes.

Played harder. Just generally was a better player and was, you know, he was a good sport about it for 90% of the season. So, you know, shouts to him for that. The Clippers, he'd be an improvement over John Wall. He's like the actualized version of what they thought John Wall was going to be able to do to, like, keep the weird John Wall. Wall, Westbrook following each other all over the NBA train going.

I think that would be nice. And I think Russ is still a good change of pace sort of option for a team. I don't know what type of team he makes sense as a starter. But as far as off the bench, you know, he still gets to the rack

every now and again. He's still a decent playmaker. He's still an NBA player. It's just you wonder if he'll able to embrace a role and fill it somewhere else, even though, you know, he kind of did here in L.A. This year. I think he did more than he got credit for, to be honest with you. And the context of a buyout is different, right? Like, you know you are coming into an established team late in the season. You know that it's not built around you. You know that you're not going to

be the star to control everything. And so there is a different expectation for guys like Russ when they walk into those sorts of situations. That's not to say it's going to go great. It's not to say whatever the fit is is going to be perfect, but he does get to, or at least presumably if he does get bought out or waived, we'll get to choose his circumstances for the first time in a while. And so we'll see kind of what he values, what he wants, what fits are even out there for him, aside from the ones that have been reported already in terms of these early teams. But, yeah, for the Jazz, I mean, they're trading away three of their top five guys in minutes played so far. Like, they are clear in the decks. They are fine with, you know, the Walker

Kessler experience. And like, let's see what our even younger process. aspects have to offer. Let's see what we can do with these last set of games that doesn't even necessarily involve winning all that much. So good move for the Lakers in that respect, too, because maybe there is one more rival in terms of the play-in seating that's out of the way. I have a question about the Jazz, though, and their future. Like, obviously, they have all these 50, million 11 picks, which, again, I just think, like, the idea that they could get, like, you know, say a number eight Laker pick out of this because

they gave up Mike Connolly and Jared Vanderbilt is crazy. But it's too late to get back into the actual top two of the Slaughter. Am I? The jazz are pretty far up.

Yeah. Like it's not happening. And like it makes me wonder, did Danny Ains get some intel that these guys are not that good? Like, because otherwise, None of this makes any freaking sense whatsoever. I mean, if you look at them individually, I think it does. Why they take so long to do this? Mike Conley, for instance, is toward the twilight of his career, as Rob alluded to.

Mike Beasley didn't seem particularly happy there. And Jared Vanderbilt was probably not going to be playing a ton, especially given how well Walker Kessler has played, how much they want to take a look at Abaji. So, like, I think if you look at each individual situation, it probably makes sense to roll it forward. and play more toward your future. I don't see them getting to the range of the Houston Rockets

an absolute abomination of a franchise, now 13 and 41 and not going anywhere anytime soon. But I guess if you're improving your odds, you're still getting high up in a draft where people are talking about it being like 10 player deep with guys like the Thompson Twins. It's better than what you have than going for a play and bid, which doesn't do them any good.

Well, the space they're into, right now their odds are not good, because of their record. But they're so clumped up with so many teams. They are two games out of the sixth best odds, which would put you at like, basically like a one and three.

So they can get into the top six, which is what you need to do. And even better than that, it would put them at basically a one and three chance of getting in the top four. So like that's a puncher's probability you can probably live with

if you're Utah with, again, what is, if I'm counting correctly, one of 11 surplus first round picks they have right now. So nice little icing on the cake for them. All right, let's wrap with this question.

Lakers play in. Yes or no? No. Ooh. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes, but it's this. They're going to be bandaged up about a time they get in there. But I think they could put a stretch together.

We've seen, like, we've already seen teams do it this year. I think they could put a stretch together, but it's not going to amount to to anything of any substance. So no playoffs. Play in, no playoffs. I just don't see it. I just don't see it. It's a lot of good teams in the West. Especially when you think about like the Warriors could be in the play in.

You know, the pelicans with everybody back could be in the play in. Those teams are definitively better than the Lakers. Yeah, I think they make the play in. I don't think they'll make the playoffs. But they're more interesting. So we'll have new drama to talk about at the very least. All right. That's it for this point. portion of the pod. What you will hear next is the one that we previously recorded earlier in the day. Hopefully it holds up well. Enjoy that. Enjoy the tragedy deadline. We'll see you.

LeBron James, new scoring king. Was, did you get emotional last night when he broke the record? Yeah, I did a little bit. And not just because I had the option of either going to last night's game or the Bucks game. And I said to myself, oh, this guy's going to drop 36 on the Thunder. You know, slowly but surely as things start to unfold, I'm like, oh, my God, this is actually going to happen. I see his post game, I mean, excuse me, his pregame sort of tunnel walking where he's dressed to the absolute nines as if he's, like, dressed for like, you know, my 40th birthday or, you know, like some big event, right? And then, you know, shout to my man Jay Ice, the main photographer for the NBA. No, Jay. Yeah, yeah, that's my dog.

And, you know, the NBA's Twitter account slowly but show it's like, Jay-Z's here, Denzel is here. Of course, Uncle Shannon is there. Like, it's just bad bunny. It's just like, okay, every single person star is in the building. And then the game starts and, you know, he started off slow. But it just became obvious that, like, this thing was building. Is that, like, I'm watching from home.

I can hear the crowd anticipating every single bucket. And LeBron is legitimate. going hard and I'm like, yeah, I started to feel what the moment was. And, you know, I tell people all the time, like, LeBron is kind of the last vestiges of my childhood, right? 20, 2003, I was a high school kid, high school Hooper. And, like, you know, like, being into the LeBron story, like, it's one of the last throughlines of stuff that I really, truly cared about in high school that still matter

and irrelevant today. And so, yeah, I did get swept up in the emotion of the night and when he broke it and he gives his speech and he's clearly, you know, emotional about it. It was a pretty neat story in a way that, like, I felt like a lot of us were scared that the LeBron thing wouldn't matter when it finally happened and then to watch last night and to be all over social

and every single TV thing and whatever. And LeBron stuff is everywhere. I'm like, man, like, people really cared about this. I mean, it was one of those occasions in the NBA where every person in the building knew how special it was. to the point that when LeBron hits the shot, there's not like, okay, do we need a whistle that might stop play?

Do we need to call a timeout? You're like, no, the game stops now. We are going to stop. We are going to honor this moment. That's history. Like, that is something really distinct and really special that we don't get on the NBA calendar very often.

And honestly, shout out to Thomas Bryant, who is psyched for his guy when LeBron hits the shot. His arms go up. He's running after LeBron. But when he gets to about half court, he kind of slows down and pulls back because look, you got to give him room for the photo.

You got to let LeBron have his moment. You're going to celebrate as a team. You're going to do your whole thing. But it really made it fun that LeBron wanted it in this game, that he was going one on three in fast breaks, that he made it very clear that this was the time. And the Lakers, too, like with the points needed, Kyron on the video board at the crypt.

Things like that are a nice touch for an occasion like this. So is that what Anthony Davis was doing, just giving LeBron all the space that he needs to celebrate the moment. Really? Just great teammate work from A.D. Yeah, we can talk about that later. Yeah, I just, you know, again, I'm watching it from the house. And I'm just like, man, this is, this is really cool.

And I listened to Bill's podcast this morning where he's like, you know, because Bill happened to be there yesterday. He's like, you know, this is like the first time it actually felt like LeBron was a Laker. and whatever that means. And, you know, of course, the bubble championship happened in Orlando, unfortunately, couldn't have a parade because of COVID restrictions and stuff like that. But like, this is like the first huge accomplishment that happens at Staples Center with LeBron in that jersey. And the fans were so freaking into it.

It was, you know, it was really, that was really cool to see as well. Yeah, people forget that. And it wasn't like an easy marriage between Lakers fans and LeBron. It took a while. Honestly, I was at Kobe's Memorial game. And I remember that was the first time where LeBron kind of stepped into the four. And it felt like everybody was playing for the same team. But you're right.

The whole arena felt like he was willing, they were willing him to that record. And to the earlier point, like, you could tell that LeBron was leaning into the moment. like he wore the headband and he dressed to the nines and I was getting a little kind of like, huh, he's going to make a big production about it. Cynical me really started to kick in, especially when you heard the things about like, oh, maybe he'll do a hook shot and all this. And I was like, oh, God, he's going to turn it into a moment. But I have to say, one, the shot itself seemed pretty organic.

I thought maybe he was looking for a hook shot, but Kenrick Williams was doing the complete opposite of the Michael's Trajan sack game where he was. like not letting that guy get anything. I love that dude. And even like Josh Giddy was over there, like hedging ready to double on him. They were not ready to concede that shot. And two, like, I thought the speech that LeBron gave was was pretty remarkable and genuine in a way that he typically isn't. And I think that really, really sold the moment for me. Well, I think there's a differentiating point there. You know, LeBron hasn't been perfect, including on some pretty big, pretty controversial stuff over the last couple years. But when you put a mic in his hand in a big

sports moment, he delivers every single time. He is there for those occasions. And in this case, like with a really authentic moment, one that didn't feel, like, didn't feel scripted, didn't feel overly prepared, felt really, really genuine. And honestly, like, it was really cool just to see his family there with him, to see his kids coming, like the seas parting of all these photographers so that he could have this moment with his family. Adam Silver just coming out of You know, we're parachuting from the top of the ceiling. That's going to happen to. But honestly, in terms of the way a record like this could be broken,

this felt like about as organic as those moments can come to the point that we have this, this incredible coming together of Lakers fans, as we've mentioned. You have Magic and Kareem there who are celebrating this alongside all of those people. You have LeBron's family. You have the fact that even though he does want this record and he is pushing for it and he is going for it, he shoots 65% in this game. Like he's not, he's not just chucking up. jumpers and we have those like awkward lulls where he's not scoring.

He was getting after it and he was being LeBron in the same way he's been LeBron all season. He's been sensational. Yeah. And the stuff about his family, I think, brings in the stark focus just how long this dude has been in our freaking lives. You know, I do remember the Sports Illustrated cover, the Chosen One Joint. I remember the first Sports Center feature that I watch where it's like, yo, you know, this kid's a junior in high school.

When people were like, if he was in the draft right now, he'd be the number one pick. Shacks going to his games. Like, it's becoming this sort of huge cult following and thing. And it's just like, all right, like, what is this, right? And again, it's hard to explain to people, but because I was a high school hooper and so was LeBron, it was this idea that, like, this kid that's six foot eight is also their point guard. and has hops and has court vision and is making jump shots

where it's like, if you were six foot five in my league, you were a stiff, you were basically a center who did nothing but jump hooks all getting, and literally nothing else. So just the idea that a kid was 16 and could do all the stuff that LeBron was doing

at his size just blew my mind because, again, six foot five guys played center in my high school league. And then, you know, I remember why, the first game, ESPN aired. And I was just like, oh, this is like a real thing. This is not like some gimmick.

Because I think people need to understand too about when we talk about the expectations. A lot of people are going to forget these cats, but I put them in the LeBron category as sports phenoms. And that's Freddie Adieu, Michelle Wee. We're like, these, no, seriously, they were like these child teenage phenoms. It's like, oh, these people are going to take over. their respective sports. And not only is Freddie Adieu going to be great, he's going to make soccer matter in America.

And, like, we got these stories and they completely flamed and fizzled out. And LeBron just does the opposite at every freaking turn. And so that's why it's like all of these years from 2002 to now, you know, and you think about all the stuff we've watched him do, watched him fail at, watched them get better at,

watch him overcome, watch him achieve. It's just crazy, you know, like this guy has kids who are about to graduate high school now. It's crazy. It's so easy to forget that in the last 20-ish years, the celebrity industrial complex has gotten to a point where like hype is very easy to create. And it's created all the time for everything, for athletes, for album releases, for basically anything under the sun.

And the conversion rate on that stuff is like minuscule small. Yeah. Just infinitesimally small. And so to see someone who had that level of expectation like LeBron and paid off in every way someone could possibly pay it off, it's an incredibly satisfying experience as just as a sports fan. Like I hope that every fan of the NBA, every fan of any sport has their generational guy like this.

So as you said, you can time mark your life by where you were when you saw him go off against the pistons, where you were when you saw him come up short against the Mavericks. Like the whole arc is, it can be imprinted on your own life and your own experiences, and to have this kind of fulfilling, not even endpoint, but kind of tail point where he's breaking these sorts of records, or he's still having this much success late in his career. It's just an incredibly satisfying place to be as a fan of the game. Yeah. I mean, Sports Illustrated literally called him the chosen one, and he literally became the chosen one. Yes.

It's insane. It's remarkable. And then another part of it, because, you know, we can't leave off the Mike part of this because Mike always looms large. in the LeBron conversation. Like, folks have to remember, LeBron is like the seventh next mic. Okay?

There's Penny. There's Grant Hill. There's Kobe. There's all of these dudes. Stackhouse. Derek Coleman. Like, dude, it was... Harold Biner.

Harold Minor, baby, Jordan. There were all... I remember once I was... I was reading the Daily News Sports section. And I think this was... This would have been after Mike's second retirement, after the three-peat. And they were like, I guess they were showing like young college kids and who could potentially be the next great two-guard.

And one of the people they highlighted was a two-guard from DePaul named Quentin Richardson. Okay. I'll never forget them being like, yo, this guy is a really good, you know, little wing talent. He's from the Chicago area. Who knows? He could be the next Jordan. They were like all of these next Jordans. But even the Kobe thing, like that stuff came after because he made so much of his game about Jordan.

When Kobe got drafted to the Lakers or to the Hornets and then traded to the Lakers, it's not like people were following him around. Like, you know this is the next mic, right? Kobe invited that sort of attention and made, he forced people, he incepted people into believing he was a Michael Jordan figure. LeBron had it since he was 16. People are like, oh, this guy legitimately could be the next month. You know, and just to think about all the people, you know, Penny because of injuries, Grant Hill, these people that David Stern and were trying to get to sort of usher in, take on the mantle of carrying, you know, the league as a product as a marketing tool.

LeBron came after all of those guys and was the, like, the guy that actually had to do it from the start. Yeah. Have you guys seen the last chance U series that Netflix does? They've been doing basketball ones of late. I had not watched it. It's really good. I recommend it. And then the most recent one,

there is a kid who I believe is from the Cleveland area who got that sort of hype. But you see the other side of it, right? He got put through the system. He was on all sorts of teams, got shuffled around to the point where he was basically homeless, trying to make a go of it on a junior college. And like you see the other side of it, which is sad.

And to Rob's earlier point, like, yeah, this is what we do to people when we like keep expectations. on him. But again, it's just remarkable how LeBron has been able to overcome all of that. He lived up to all of that, and it just doesn't happen at all. And so that's just one of the many

excellent, like, ridiculous things that LeBron has done over the course of his 20 years. I mean, overcame incredible improbability. As you mentioned, was like, dodged all of the injury kinds of situations that played guys like Grant Hill and Penny. And beyond that, a 20-year career,

there has not been a single moment in which someone had to ask, like, is LeBron going to be in shape for training camp? Is he going to be up for this season? He has erased so many of the variables that have derailed other guys, including other legends.

And he's put all that stuff to bed. He's put all that stuff away. Honestly, he's just kind of an unquestionable player in so many ways. Yeah, and I want to give a shout out to our bringer teammate, KOC, and his appreciate LeBron bit.

that he does on social, on Twitter, and on Instagram. And because, like, for me, the two things that, obviously LeBron is great, and we appreciate how great he is, but the two things for me that I love about LeBron is, one, his ability to surprise, like, continue to deliver surprises, right? And related to that is just 20 years of drama, just consistently delivering. dramatic moments situations for us as fans and then later on as people who work in this industry

to chew on, there is always something dramatic happening around this guy. And as much as we love the game, we live for these dramatic moments too, right? And when I say like surprise, like 2016 is just a surprise. I had no expectation that Cleveland would win that series at any point until like four minutes left in game seven. At no point in that series that I think they could beat the Warriors. Like literally, game five game, I'm like, yeah, that's great.

But like, you're not going to win the series. You're not going to beat the 73 and 19. You know, even the bubble, I was completely surprised how dominant LeBron could be in the bubble where I was just, people was just like, well, AD might be there. I'm like, yo, are you watching this dude, do what he's doing?

Like so many times, time in Detroit, like you mentioned, where I'm just like, man, this is shocking what I'm watching. And again, like, just to drama, even if sometimes it wears this thin with the, you know, stop, stop fitting out. Do you see he referenced that the other day?

Yeah, with Hachamura. And then he, like, did the look around to make sure everyone got the reference. I was like, oh, God. I thought that was a joke until I saw the clip. I was like, did he really just fit out again? Yeah. Now, he's put a new spin on old face.

James. Dramatic, man. Absolutely one of a... I mean, honestly, that's probably an underrated part of LeBron's entire thing, is like how locked in he is, not only as a basketball player, but with the cadence of the NBA product. Like, he is such a perfect person to build a new cycle around, a season arc around, the story of the league around. And that's why he's carried it on his shoulders for so long.

Yeah, he understands celebrity in a way that I think few celebrities actually do. To that point, Rob, and to go and hearkening back to the chosen one thing, he got it tattooed across his back. It just seems like he has an incredible ability to just like heighten moments and to take advantage of. And then the headband was another example of that. I mean, and going back to the Kobe Memorial game, he wore like, you know, he wore the armband. He wore like the finger sleeve like that. He just like, he knows how to, like, create, like, just like spectacle in a way that, like, I think few people do, let alone NBA players. It's not really a skill set that typically NBA players have.

It's really more of like a celebrity movie star sort of quality. And he's just been able to marry the two together so seamlessly. That's the thing is you either find players who are incredibly theatrical, sometimes at the expense of their game, or they're incredibly effective, but do not give a shit. about the theatrics. And LeBron is at that very rare intersection of those things where not only is he like setting up this moment, not only is he dressing for the occasion,

but basically in the month leading up to the game has been on an absolute tear. You know, since the calendar year, he scored 35 points or more eight times. At 38 years old, only one player in the league has done that more in that stretch. And he's been on that kind of pace all year. He's just been streaking towards,

this record, he's been performing at that level, and subtly, he's going to let you know about it. He's going to build the anticipation for the event, and he's going to make sure that when he breaks it, he's in his home arena. And we need to be clear, you know, just so that we don't do too much aggrandizement of the guy. Obviously, this flare for the dramatic comes with its downsides. There's plenty of times where, you know, even me, somebody who kind of has an unlimited appetite for all things, LeBron. I'm just like, give it a fucking rest, dude.

You know, and then some of the weird, corny commercials and all of this kind of stuff. Like that, like, look, I understand how somebody who's kind of been in the spotlight since he's like 15 and has been so just hyper-focused on getting that part of it right, media relations right. And, you know, there's a downside that comes to that where it can kind of feel canned and inauthentic at times.

But on the whole, it's delivered for us. You know, his focus on understanding what it means to deliver a product that is entertaining. And so, yeah, last night was just the culmination of that. And like, you know, I'm kicking myself on my couch. I'm like, how the hell did I think he wouldn't drop 36 on the thunder? That was just like, yeah, he's going to drop 25. And then it won't be no pressure to really do it against the bucks. He'll get 14 points or whatever the hell it is.

and, you know, 20 or whatever, and it'll be great. It'll be awesome. I will have been there to watch history. And LeBron's like, no, I'm going to deliver on the theatrics and the dramatic. I'm going to reward your viewing, you know, and that's what he's done his whole career. Was, I don't really know what you're talking about with these downsides. I'm just in my pool, soaking it up, smiling through it all. Can't believe this is my life.

Well, speaking of drama, I guess now that. we've got the warm and fuzzies. Yeah. The Lakers lost this game pretty handily, actually. The Thunder, like, yeah, LeBron went off, but the Thunder pretty much controlled the entire thing. I mean, do we want to give, like, a minute really quickly to talk about how good the Thunder are?

Like, this team is, like, really good. And they don't have two lottery picks. And it seems like they are doing the positionalist thing better than the Raptors could have ever dreamed at this point, the no center positionalist thing. I'm, like, I'm just astonished by how good this team. has gotten so quickly. They're really good. And most importantly, they will catch you if you are not a disciplined team. And the Lakers are not a disciplined team. So it wasn't a mistake that they were basically keeping the Lakers at arm's length through a lot of this game. And this was a pretty important one.

Like if you're the Lakers, and you're trying to make the play in, you need to overtake three teams that are ahead of you at least. And the Thunder are one of those teams. And they showed up to play. They do have that positionless kind of disposition, as you mentioned, Justin, to the fact that like She is their point guard, but kind of the. they're small forward sometimes. Like they range around. They have so many guys who can handle the ball. This has been a huge Josh Giddy season.

If you're, if you've been holding on to your stock, you're very pleased at this point, I imagine. The vibes are great. Like they move the ball well. They play together well. They are competent defensively and young enough that everything is house money.

And those are really fun teams to watch and root for. Yeah. When you watch a young team, I think one of the first things you want to see is them playing with a level of force. and focus and, you know, they don't always get it right because they don't have the knowledge yet. They haven't accrued the knowledge

because you have to actually play these games against the best guys to figure it out as far as what your best at doing, but they play with a lot of force. They are hyper athletic. They're turning people over like it's nobody's business, which you love to see from a young group. And, yeah, like Rob said to reiterate,

they're playing for each other. The only difference between them and the Raptors, They got SGA. They have a all-star starter-caliber-level wing on their team. Who last night, he was just walking guys to the basket. Literally, just like Pat Bev hacking the hell out of me, all of these scrub-lake of defense. It's like, he's just literally like,

no, I'm going to get right to the front of the rim and I'm going to score every time I want to. And so that's the difference between them and the Raptors. They have an elite, elite-level wing who, you know, I'll confess because I'm always skeptical of young guys and what they can do going forward. I thought a lot of the hand-wringing that Clippers Brass did when you would talk to them after the trade was like a little performance.

Man, it was kind of tough to give up on Shay Alexander because, you know, he looks like the next penny. And oh, I'm just like, guys, you got Paul George into your building. And then the next year, his first year with OKC when they had Chris Paul and Dennis Schrooter, He sucked in the playoffs. He was terrible. You know, only a second season.

You can't expect him to be some great. But I was like, let's just kind of pump the brakes on this SGA thing. And then, you know, year by year, he's just gotten exponentially better, not incrementally. Like, he's gotten way better every single season since. And so to now where he's just like a clear-cut, all-star starter caliber type of guy, which I just, I did not see that for him. right? I was like, okay, he's going to be a nice wing, but he is just an elite wing. And that's really cool, really cool to see.

Yeah, he just has that control of pace in the game in the way that few players do, especially few young players. Like, there are times where he's starting and stopping, and he looks like two seconds ahead, like he's Neo or something, you know? But to your earlier point was, like, I think it works better than the Raptors because these guys can also shoot. Like, these guys are all two-way players. And like SGA is probably the most reluctant shooter. I won't say he's the worst shooter. He rarely shoots it from beyond the arc.

He probably had like two attempts last night. This team just like seems like it has a pretty long runway, which you can't really say for our friends in Los Angeles, the Lakers. Also, can we, it bears mention in Isaiah Joe. My lord. Jump were just, just wet. Just would not miss last night. You can make up names right now.

and I would think they're on the thunder. But yeah. You know, Isaiah Joe's a known quantity. He's been around. Who's the Joe, the old Joe from the Sixers? That's him. That's him. He was on the Sixers.

So he's back and he's good now. Yes. Okay. But are we bearing the lead on, are we bearing the lead on the Mike Muscala revenge game? Dude. I was just thinking about that. It took, honestly, Rob, it took two threes.

For me to be like, wait, wait, wait a second. Is that Michael Scholar just raining threes on their heads right now? You're damn right it is. Crazy. He's back. But yeah, we should talk about the Lakers here. I thought it was pretty pointed that in kind of LeBron's walkoff interview he did with TNT, he already started to flip into now all I have to look forward to is this bum-ass team

that isn't getting me into the title contention anymore. Where he's basically like, yeah, I could bring. this and compete for titles with any franchise, with any guys around me. I was like, oh boy, this might turn pretty quickly. There were reports right before we jumped down here that Russell Westbrook got into some sort of kerfuffle with Darwin Ham, but then ultimately they dap each other up. So I guess it's about the friends that we dapp up along the way. And it's about any sort of consternation here. AD, as I referenced earlier, like not only that weird clip is going around where he didn't get off the bench when LeBron broke the record or he kind of lurched

to the rest of the crowd. He looked like a mushroom zombie last night from the last of us. Like, dude just like, I don't know what the hell happened to him last night. Maybe he, like, he ate something bad before the game, but he looked completely a mess. So somehow the Lakers look even more all over the place than I think we assumed they'd be heading into this deadline tomorrow. First of all, on the mushroom zombie front.

Sure. Those are really fast and incredibly coordinated zombies. Well, no, they're all like spazzy, you know? But you're right. As opposed to other zombies. Do they run into things? Sure. But they got the athleticism.

I mean, the mushroom fibers are like zombie HGH. By the way, all you need to know about me is when I hear the term mushroom zombie, I assume it's a guy who ate too many magic mushrooms. I'm just like, oh, yeah, that would explain. Maybe that's a better way to describe AD. seeing leprechauns on the court or something last night. But I don't know what's going on here. Something is amiss in Lakerland, more than usual, it seems like.

I think what, look, I remember the first LeBron season in Los Angeles where basically he had the entire baby Lakers on the trading block the whole season. And particularly right before the deadline, I just remember Brandon Ingram, specifically was playing so bad. The second the deadline passed, he just took off. And I was like, oh, this is the dude we've been waiting for all year. But there was a weight sort of taken off of him because it's like, all right, I'm going to be here for the rest of the year.

And I can just worry about hooping now and not ending up in, you know, on the bayou somewhere, right? Or potentially somewhere else, who knows? So I think there always is a sort of weight on any team that's been, And clearly, it's not even just like, oh, it's rumors and innuendo in your local paper and in the national press. Your freaking leader is talking about, yeah, man, I want it, Kyrie Irvin, you know. And if you're somebody like Russell Westbrook, which all you hear that as is, I would have loved to see Russ get the hell up out of here because that's what it means.

Like, there's no Kyrie Irvin trade without Russ moving somewhere. And so I understand why guys might be a little uneasy. It would surprise me that AD would feel that way. because I feel like AD being traded seems strange. Not just the caliber player that he is, but just like the clutch angle of all of it. But, you know, who knows? Yeah, he just wasn't moving that well.

Like, I don't know. Aside from like a couple of hustle plays just didn't really make an impact on this particular game. And he, you know, he does that sometimes. That is part of the Anthony Davis experience. But it's hard to place like where he is right now and what his level of investment is and what he's doing, because we've seen him earlier in the season,

just play sensational basketball. I hope that this is more physical than it is anything else. And honestly, that was, it's not better in the grand scheme of things, but it is a little bit comforting to think that this is something that can't be helped versus something that can. And that was honestly my first thought when that clip started going around of him taking a seat during the LeBron celebration was,

I've been this guy before, this is my body hurts, and I just need to sit down for a minute. Yeah, I think the one thing that you could bank on amidst all the many things that have happened with the Lakers over the past two years is that AD and LeBron would be tight just because they seem like they have a really good relationship. So I would assume it's not that, but if 80 is hurt and he'd been playing pretty well since he came back, although it had been only a handful of games, that makes them heading into the deadline pretty interesting here. They are now the third worst team in the Western Conference passed by both the Thunder, the young upstart Thunder and the Portland Trailblazers. And now they're not far enough away that they couldn't get back into the playing with a five-game run here.

But like there aren't that many games left on the schedule and they have to be an appreciably better team over this next half. They can't just like just have an upgrade and like be okay. They have to be one of the best teams in the second half for this to matter. And so I guess I'm talking myself into maybe the, the Lakers' best path is to not do anything at all. I guess I'm coming on to Team Waz now and saying, like maybe they just got to eat the shit and move on.

I think, look, I think if the big three, because look, as much as I think Kyrie is obviously an upgrade over Russ, I just don't think, and maybe this is like me being in the tank for certain guys, but I was like, if they could swing a trade like this for Damien Lillard, I'd be like, oh, okay, that's a big three. And I'm just like, man, that's going to be tough. to deal with in the playoffs, right?

When you consider this the level of playmaking between Braun and Dame Lillard and then the stretch that Dame would provide, bronze just never had that type of stretch and basketball like you. Like these are, like, it would take another game changer, game breaker. Kyrie's just another all-star

with an extremely thin roster around it. And, you know, it's hard to watch last night's game and be like, yeah, Kyrie get up in here and this just would have been so much different. I don't know that that's the case. So it's like Zach Levine, Brad Bill, like, who are these guys out there potentially that they could have swung this major deal for that really materially changes their lives? I really think they need to start thinking about rounding out this roster for real, you know, and not just a quick fix of a quote-unquote superstar who doesn't do super.

superstar things for you every game. Yeah, as long as the hang-up is thinking about this contained period of time and not a reluctance to give up these distant draft picks for the sake of that distant future, I'm okay with it. But I do think as a team that has opted into the LeBron James business,

that has, this was the choice you make when you signed up to basically be the steward of the twilight years of his career, was that you were going to compete. You don't have to make that trade right now, but if you're not going to make it now, you got to do something in the summer. Like, you have to make a move now or then to maximize this window as much as you can.

I legitimately do think the Lakers owe LeBron something in that regard. Yeah. I mean, I think Kyrie would have been a pretty great fit on this team. I mean, the problem is Kyrie, you never know what you're going to get. But, like, the big three of Kyrie, LeBron, AD is like, that's a scary-ass team. I do not want to play them if I'm any team in the NBA, let alone in like some of the better Western. My only problem with the team is, and when AD's locked down, he's incredible.

It's like, Braun and Kyrie trying to guard people, for real in 2020. It's just, like, there was times last night with, often reasons coming back. LeBron just straight up just didn't get out of his,

like, he just straight up was going under every single screen, not sprinting back on defense all the time. And I know he has it within him that played better defense than that. But how much better? You know, is he an above average defender still?

I don't know that he is against the best teams. Maybe between the athleticism that he still has and his extremely incredible IQ and instincts for defense, man, like, I'm just like, bro, is like Troy Brown and the rest of this stuff going to be like the defense part of it? It's hard. It's hard. It's really hard.

I think the answer to the LeBron part is, I think he can be an above average defender for a series, like for seven games for a contained period of time for a regular season no shot but if the tradeoff is we get bad defense plus russ on offense versus bad defense plus kairi on offense i think that's a pretty significant that's a nice that's a nice nice that's a nice nice trade off the other players who are being talked about in the markets as as we kind of lurched toward the deadline here the big one is one kevin durant the big rep will affect from the kairi irving trade uh you're seeing all sorts of things one minute

It seems like the Nets want to keep them, want to convince him to stay. This morning, a Wednesday morning we heard like, well, actually, maybe it's going to reach a conclusion where Durant is traded. Maybe it happens more in the offseason rather than at the deadline. I think it's a really interesting situation that we have here in Brooklyn, Rob. Like, if you're Sean Marks here and once you comb your luscious curls and you say what up to Joe's sigh and, what are you thinking right now? Are you trying to cash in on Kevin Durant

because you know that's an inevitable conclusion or are you still trying or do you think there's something that they could do at this deadline to sell him that this is actually probably the best situation for you? I think I'm more toward the latter.

I'm in the stage if I'm involved in the Brooklyn Net's business of how do we make our pitch? What are we offering Kevin Durant at this point? Because the reality is Like, there are players who, when they ask out for a trade, you have to oblige them. Like, they will cause problems if you do not. Katie is one of those guys who, I don't think he's going to sit out games.

Like, he's going to show up and play. He's not really going to be, like, that loud or that grumbly about things. Like, there's, the biggest questions surrounding him in his entire career have been when he's about to be a free agent and has the choice to leave and you need to appease him. He's got three more seasons locked in under contract after this one. that's a lot of runway to do things that's a lot of runway to win him over but you got to start with something more than

you can live in New York and have a replacement level roster around you and so whether those trades start now whether they start in the offseason and earnest you have to start putting that pitch deck together like you have to start winning him over as wanting to be involved in what you're doing because right now he's going to show up

and he's going to play well and they're going to rise and fall based on how he can carry these guys but there's not a lot of there's not allowed to recommend there as far as why Kevin Durant should want to be a part of it. This is why they need to get rid of KD as soon as possible

because the marriage is over. The relationship is over. The second you didn't ride with Kyrie which was obviously one of his entire contingencies for being there, the second you didn't want to make Kyrie whole, you were done,

you were out of the Kevin Durant business. So it's just do it Right now, it's almost like, you know, the guys our age understand this. Like you got a girlfriend and it's been going for years and you know she wants the ring. The ring is the thing. You know she wants the ring and you're just like, I don't think I want to do that with this person. I don't want to be tired with this person for the rest of my life. Are you speaking from experience?

No, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. But the, the, it's very specific, but okay. But you have to just get out immediately, dragging this along, putting this poor person through, like, the fakenness

who's just like, oh, we're committed with this. No, you're not. You made your bed sleeping it. You failed. You brought in two mercurial, eccentric, superstars into your building. You said, damn it, we don't care. We want to be in this business as volatile as it's,

clearly been, and we got a, it bears mentioning. The way KD left OKC, the way he left Golden State, which was basically for the opposite reasons of what was happening in OKC, essentially, and then he goes to Brooklyn and is expected that he's just going to be this happy campy, happy camper, excuse me, happy go lucky type of guy is absurd. And then you compound that by bringing in Kyrie, who again, previous to that. And we've gone over this over and over on the show, There's mentioning previous to that.

He bullied his way out of Cleveland, championship team, all of that. He bullied his way out of the Celtics. And you guys are just like, oh, no, this is going to be kumbaya. This is going to be great. This is going to be fantastic. And so you reap what you so.

So, like, there's the part where I hate the way Kyrie has comported himself throughout the time in Brooklyn. And, you know, I'm miffed by the, level of faith that KD placed in Kyrie, but at the same time, nobody made you do this, Sean Marks. Nobody made you do this, Josai. Y'all got to eat your vegetables. Y'all chose to do this. There are consequences to your actions. Just hurry up and deal with them. And so, yeah, they should be getting out of the KD business immediately. I love this, like, mad men style kind of pivot you have here where all, like, actions have reactions and life is about, like, you know, not being

able to just run away from things, you really have to own up to your past? This is good. I like this for you. Waz, I want to lay out a scenario for you and let me know how this hits you. Because I think you're absolutely right in the sense that obviously Katie and Kyrie signed up for this together. They wanted to play together. In theory, when the Nets are out on Kyrie, they're out on Katie. But what happens if Katie comes back from his injury on the other side of the All-Star break? The Nets are still pretty good. They're in fifth place in the East right now. Let's say they can hover around that like three to five zone. all of a sudden the nets are winning.

People like us are just constantly talking about how great Kevin Durant is because look at this roster around them, the third place in the east. How fun it is to watch these games. Otherwise, everything is very quiet. Everything is very easy. Guys, did you guys miss the Boston series last year? That's what was happening.

And then it was not nearly enough with Kyrie, one of the best postseason half-court players that you can have around Katie? Like this team is just not enough. That's true. Following the relationship metaphor, what if like the Kyrie relationship was the

chaotic thing that Katie wanted but it wasn't good for him? What if this is actually what Katie needs? He needs stability around him. He needs role players. He doesn't need other stars to just like create these volatile situations. Like just just

ease into your twilight here, KD, like appreciate marriage for what it is. Guys, there was no volatility in Golden State. They kicked everybody's fucking ass. Steph Curry was incredible the entire time. The only reason they barely lost to the Raptors for their third straight titles because guys, the team fell apart physically.

There was no friction. KD. He wanted nothing to do with it. He said, I don't want that. So we can't pretend this is what this guy wants or needs, you know? again, to bring it back to the nets. And this is going to be another weird metaphor. But it reminds me of the same thing.

The 2008 financial crash was just like all of these homeowners, all of these greedy people knew they couldn't afford what they were doing. And it's their fault and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, wait a second, nobody makes a bank give out this loan. It was like Ben Simmons, a triple B or something? Oh, yeah. Exactly. It used to be in this country that the lender and the lentee were held equally responsible.

Like it's your responsibility to give loans out to people who can pay them out. So to me, the Nets got, again, you're responsible for the makeup of this team. At every turn, you could have did something else. And let's just provide you guys with a counter example. Let's just say KD and Kari called Greg Popovich back in 2019. and said, we want to come to your team. Click. Hang up.

You're not coming here. You're not ruining my life. Ain't no way. So this idea that they just had to do it. Not a lot. But other organizations would have had the self-awareness to be like, this is not going to be good for us. You think the Spurs would have said no to Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant

in the prime of the careers? I don't think. I think as soon as the business. end of the Spurs franchise gets a hold of that idea. They're like, shut the fuck up, Greg Popovich. He is going to make us billions. Well, I do think they would probably sidebar with KED and be like, can you pick literally anyone else?

That's true. I mean, could you imagine Popovich and Kyrie Irving on a day-to-day bit? Like, that would make my brain explode. Just the, I got the other ones. I think they get along famously. Like, I think they're, this is, yeah, I think this is just like, Pop is a way of just like massaging these situations. Like Stephen Jackson was an okay player for a short amount of time.

Like it was volatile, but like he won a title with them, didn't he not? Stephen Jackson is somebody you could banish at any moment. This is not the same. It's not the same. You can't you can't just banish Kyrie to the bench and move on with your life. Like you can't just send Kyrie home and move on with your life. We saw what happened when they tried this hardball tactic with Kauai. And it was just like, oh, this dude is like somebody who,

wants to get treated like a superstar? Hell no. They'll have two of those people in they building telling Pop what to do? All right. Just imagine the 24-hour press cycle of team shoot around on game day. Greg Popovich says something. During the day, Kyrie Irving tweets out some bizarre shit.

Pre-game, reporters ask Popovich about it. He responds. Post-game, Kyrie responds to Popovich's reaction. That's every game day. Yeah, but then Pop will do this. the thing where he abuses reporters and everyone will be like, oh, this is so cute because there's this weird like

cuck thing happening with reporters and pop. So it'll all be fine. Oh, Pop, you're so great. The cucked, liberal, coastal elitist media will not stand up to Greg Popovich.

Anyway, well, the spurs are probably a good example though, because Sean Mark says come from that system. I'll say this. I look at the Nets have post-Kyrieb, I think it's not bad. Like, all things considered, like, I think they did a pretty poor job in the James Harden situation, but what they got out of the Mavs puts them in a decent situation should K.D. really want to invest it. The problem is that ultimately, they just life-swapped with the Mavericks, where really Katie becomes the Luca, surrounded by role players,

and, like, they're a better defensive team. And so, like, I do think they're going to be good, probably better than people expect if Katie does play out the string, at least for the season, but they probably are heading to an inevitability. And like a lot of the scenes you're hearing about are like the Sons and some of these other situations. Rob, which like where do you think it makes the most sense? If you're like one of these other contenders, like who's who's at the top of the the Fandu odds right now for the Katie Derby should this fall apart? I think the Sons are. Like they just make a lot of sense as a team that's at that inflection point themselves and could make a deal like this, but frankly, I'm always mystified as to why we are not getting more Grizzlies leverage in

these conversations. Like, if we're talking about them flipping multiple picks for OG and Anobie, why are we not constantly talking about them flipping the same package and more? And they have young players to spare as well. For a guy who could legitimately change their life as a franchise, like Kevin Durant on the Grizzlies elevates them into a different class. That's a championship team, no questions asked. So why we aren't having that conversation? I'm always a little confused by. And maybe that's like more of a market thing than it is anything else. But that's

one I would love to see. And frankly, I would love to see rise up with odds in terms of the probability of that actually happening. Yeah, I think the problem with those deals is always the same thing. It's like the Knicks and the jazz where it's just like, all right, you're taking a lesser package

from other teams, but the jazz are just like, well, we're going to take the best stuff that whoever we're trading with has. And if the Nets take that tact with the Grizzlies, like, are the Grizzlies, they're not going to give up Sharon Jackson? Probably not. I think it would be Desmond Bain

and some other pieces and some picks. Desmond Bain. That's the starting point, I think. Desmond Bain, Dylan Brooks. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if the Nets favor the best offer as opposed to sending him to the best situation. Like, how much are

they trying to do Katie like a solid. He ain't trying to do shit for KD. But I mean, a lot of these teams are pissed. Yeah, they weren't for Kyrie.

That's for sure. Does the Grizzlies even trade for him knowing that he doesn't want to be there? That's how the leverage thing works. Can I throw another team out there? Please. Golden State.

I've heard of them. You can always go home. I talked about this with Logan on the weekend podcast, but I don't know. Like, it seems like that would be a pretty good fit these days. Steph is out. Katie comes back, creates order where there is none, wins another title or two, realizes what he left behind.

You know, we're talking about how he didn't appreciate this situation that he blew up probably one of the best situations in recent basketball history. Maybe he has a new perspective on life and this is like, this is how he was always destined to end up. Was, no? I just can't see it. I just can't. I just can't see it. And, you know, the real reason why it makes it hard is, you know, like pride. Like, KD. would be admitting that he was dead wrong about getting the hell up out of there four years ago.

And I find that hard to believe that he's just going to go back with egg on his face, completely having failed in Brooklyn. Like, you did nothing. You won one series since leaving and you're going back. it's like moving back in with your parents, bro. Like, it's not going to happen, bro. I find that very hard to believe. Like, could you imagine if Justin Timberlake left in sync, you know, didn't have the great solo career?

And then was like, oh, man, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm coming back. Vegas residency, baby. I'm kind of into that. Do we think Kevin Doreen, let's say he doesn't return to the Warriors, but the question within the question here is, will he ever admit that that was a bad call?

Like, do you think he'll ever get to that place, whether it's, you know, he's talked a lot about the Warriors since he's been a Brooklyn Net? When he's on his next team and he's reflecting back, will he ever iterate that like, maybe I shouldn't have left? Like, maybe I had a good thing going there. Whether, again, podcast cycle in two seasons

or memoir 15 years from now, Do you think we will ever get from Kevin Durant? Maybe I shouldn't have left Golden State. Well, I do think what the Kyrie situation dredges up is it ultimately becomes a legacy conversation. And at times, KD, in recently, I think he's been this way, has been kind of nonchalant about like what his legacy is. He kind of thinks that he's bulletproof at this point.

He's a Hall of Famary. He's done all this stuff. And then he just wants to, yeah, exactly. But he just wants to kind of have fun, be the best that he can be and not worry about all this other stuff. I don't totally buy that as something that he'll think five years from now. Or maybe when he's retired, I wonder if he'll regret that. And I do wonder how much that influences what happens now.

And so I think like the best legacy proposition in front of him is to make the most of the Nest situation. Basically do what you wanted to do or people wanted you to do with the New York Nix, bring them somewhere that they haven't been in years and years and years, at least since being in Brooklyn. And then you can almost like carve out your own path. I think going to a sons or even like going back to the Warriors only makes things more muddled. I think right, like what he decides to do from here on now, I think he's going to have a really, really huge impact. Maybe the biggest impact on how we remember him ultimately when he does retire. Yeah, I think to me the regret should be.

I don't know if it would be not going to the Knicks, honestly. Picking the nets over the Knicks where just like this would have mattered in ways that are just, like indescribable how much more this whole thing would have mattered and also I think Dolan would have capitulated and paid up because he's a starfucker and he would have absolutely been like we're going to do because like the energy around what they would have been doing in Madison Square Garden would be like nothing

that's Madison Round Garden was Madison Round Garden let's get it straight excuse me would have been like nothing else And I think Dolan would have kept them content and happy. And we're paying y'all up. We're giving y'all another 200 years. Let's run this for as long as y'all want to.

Because the MSG situation would have just been mega supercharged as compared to what it was in Brooklyn. I don't think he would have had to worry about Kyrie being sent away for not being faxed if he was on a Dolan team. Let's just say that. But he might be one tweet away from not being allowed in the building, you know. Is the 2024 R&C in the Vegas

orb or will it be at Madison Square Garden? Who knows? Shout to Jim Dolan, man. Well, why don't we talk about the sun since we're kind of like talking around them? Because kind of on the fringes of all this, it seems like Chris Paul is very available. They have a new owner who I believe

officially got the keys earlier this week. Reports from Chris Haynes and other people or that Chris Paul was part of the package being sent to the Nets. And I don't know how serious those discussions were. But at the very least, he was mentioned. And I'm a little bit surprised on the one hand, Chris Paul's performance over the past couple years has been up and down. The injuries are there.

He was not playing well this season. But he's been better of late. And someone of Paul's caliber, I mean, we're talking about LeBron and KD's legacy. Chris Paul's right up there. Seems a little surprising to me, Rob, that, like, Paul's just kind of being tossed about like he's like old news. Is this word to you? It's a little weird,

but if you're going to make these level of transactions, you're going to have to give up something serious. So you're either giving up Chris Paul or you're giving up some combination of Bridges and Aiton and other essential parts of your team. Like Devin Booker has bolted down. Everything else is pretty negotiable, I think, for the Sons at this point. The issue for them is I don't think that they could or should or will

move Chris Paul in anything less than a, Durant or Kyrie level deal. Right? Like the Sons are climbing right now. Booker finally made his return from that groin injury last night. He had missed 21 games. If the Sons can get something for Crowder,

I think they're pretty well in the mix in the West. They're close enough that they shouldn't just be looking to eject out of this thing. So they're kind of closer to those kinds of moves than ultimately moving Chris Paul. But Chris is at a stage in his career where you have to at least consider it.

Like if you think Kyrie is a potential answer for you, you got to kick those tires. Yeah, and the crazy shit about, I've tuned into their game last night, and it was jolting to see Chris Paul, McHale Bridges, Devin Booker, Cam Johnson, and DeAndre Aiton all playing. We haven't seen that since they flamed out against the Mavs last year. That was in May. That was like eight months ago was the last time we saw the actual Suns play.

So that was just like, whoa, holy smokes. And so that I think is why they shouldn't just be in a rush. It's like there's nothing wrong with seeing how this plays out, especially watching their competition this year. I don't, you know, save for Denver, who's kind of been good all year long, nobody else in the West is like, oh, my goodness. What would we do come play all the time?

I think they should chill, honestly. Yeah, A-June was a monster in that game. It was great to see him playing up to the caliber he's capable of playing. I mean, I think you're right. It does help that, like, Ian Wainwright isn't getting 32 minutes a game at this point. But it just seems like there's just so much stuff around this team now that, and maybe it's the new owner coming in, wanting to shake things up, put his own imprint on this franchise. Although I will say that the report that maybe Isaiah Thomas will get a role in this front office

is like this isn't exactly cleaning up the swamp in Phoenix. that maybe we thought we would get, but that's a whole other story, I guess. It just seems like there's a lot of noise around this team. Okay. But I don't know. It's just, it seems like they're not recognizing that there still could be an opportunity

for this team this season. I mean, isn't exploring those kinds of trades also recognizing that? Like saying maybe we think we're close enough, maybe we're taking a hard look at what Chris Paul's doing. doing. And Paul has had like a really good stretch since coming back from injury and now like a pretty slow, quieter stretch since coming back from injury. Taking stock of all those things is hard figuring out like what is real and what is kind of just noise and his performance right now is hard at the stage in his career. Maybe you have to be honest about that and say like we're willing to

roll the dice with some volatility for the sake of getting a huge talent play with someone like Kyrie for example. Although, you know, now that option's off the table. If Devin Booker can't put together a solid 10 game stretch this year. It doesn't matter anyway. And we got, can this guy play 10 straight games without a problem with this growing situation, which is one of the hardest injuries to play through in the sport? Like, he's going to feel pain all year around this injury. So there's something worth monitoring, man.

I love Devon Book. I love watching him play. But this is going to be tough. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap it here with some light predictions going into tomorrow. The deadline, I believe, is noon Pacific on Thursday. So I'm going to lightning round, give you a bunch of names.

Let me know where these guys end up, what team they're playing for as of 1 p.m. Pacific tomorrow. Let's start with Kevin Durant. Rob. Brooklyn Nets. Net forever. Forever now, but it will be a Brooklyn net this week. He'll be a net. He'll be a net for the rest of the season.

He'll have three years left on his deal in the off season, which will make him an incredible trade ship. You know, and so, yeah, there's no reason to do this right now. Like, none at all. Unless somebody blows you away with an incredible offer, this is better to just do this in the summer. Okay. Chris Paul.

Still the sons, too. I think it's too hard to find a taker for her. him at this stage. You would really need another contender to trade Paul to who's going to be in the market for exactly what he's offering you at this stage in his career. I don't really see that team on the board, to be honest. Yeah, who's putting that dude? Who's putting a guy in the deal that can play point guard for real? You know? Could you work out a three-team deal, Fred Van Vleet to Phoenix, Chris Paul to the Clippers? I would love to see it. You could always go home. I'm just trying to bring people back to where the trauma began, you know? You're big on the

this week. I was big on the reunions last week. I was I was sending Gary Harris back to Denver. I was doing all kinds of craziness. The one that everyone has been anticipated. Clammering for. Of course. Yeah. The CP thing is just so weird. I kind of want him to end up in a different situation, if only because I feel like a fuck you second half from Chris Ball would be way more interesting. But you're right. Phoenix seems like the most likely destination, even though they are seem to be flirting with disaster here by potentially pissing him off. Since we're already talking about Fred Van Blee, what about him? I think he's going to be a Laker.

I think either Van Vleet alone or Van Vleet and Trent. I think I'm kind of leaning toward one of those constructions. Because of the just LeBron applying pressure, they need to do something. Yeah. Yeah, clear need. Pretty good fit, ultimately, for a lot of the same reasons, Kyrie is a good fit, you know, a lesser player, lesser shot creator, certainly. gives you something different defensively,

can fit it alongside a playmaker like LeBron. I think there's a lot to like there. And I think the Lakers are in a position where they're going to talk themselves into something like that. Man, Van Vlead, I've been thinking clippers and sons all year, just, you know, as teams that

feel like they're motivated to do something at the one. So I'm definitely more clippers, though. And, you know, their front office has been pretty creative over the years as far as getting people into their building, you know. So maybe they can find a way to make the Van Vleet thing work in time for everybody sort of finally getting back on the court for them. I'm going to say Brooklyn.

You're seeing Buzz basically suggesting that the Nets wanted to spin the Kyrie deal into a three-team deal. It's a little bit more complicated for them to make another trade now because they can't aggregate Dinwiddie or Dorian Finney-Smith. into another deal. So it's going to be a little bit tougher logistically,

but like, I definitely think there's an incentive to do something to suggest a Durant that like there is a bigger story being written here

and that there's more there and you can convince yourself. I mean, Van Vleet's what, a one-time All-Star? You could say all-star Fred Van Ville as your number two teammate.

O.G. and Nobie. Much ado about nothing, still a Toronto Raptor on the other side of the deadline. I think it's going to be one of those things where I'm having flashbacks to the Kyle Lowry trade deadline where's like what are the Raptors where are they going to send Kyle Lowry? What are they going to get back for him? And then straight up never did it.

They just didn't do it. I kind of think that's where we're headed with OG and maybe that sets up a deal in the summer. But I kind of don't think he's getting traded right now. Man, I think OG is go. I can't predict where he's going to end up because literally every team in the league is in on him. So, like, literally, every team in the league is in on OG. So it's hard to predict where he's going. But I feel like because there's so much competition,

somebody is going to tickle their fancy. And it's going to be like, all right, this is enough to let the guy finally go. So I just can't believe he's going to stay on this team with so many teams seem motivated to get a guy with his skill set in their building. Well, the latest scuttlebot suggests that maybe the KD Derby is, going to take some air out of the OG bonanza. So any team that would think about getting into the KD business, like the Sons, for instance, isn't going to chase OG as hard because they know that they can maybe swing a deal for

Durant. We'll see what happens. It does seem like, and you're already seeing stories as of Wednesday morning coming out, suggesting that OG isn't particularly happy there. There's a lot of Jeremy Grant 2.0 vibes happening where it seems like OG is very appreciated for what he does right now. being this ultimate two-way versatile defender slash shooter, but he wants to do a little bit more. I believe it's a Sam A-Mick report today that said that pretty much outright.

And so if it's going to drag things down so much, I wonder if that's enough of an impetus, along with like the forthcoming contract situation. I believe he's a free agent in the summer of 2024, that would push him out the door. But we'll see. I would love if the Grizzlies, the team we talked about before, or the Pelicans or some of these other teams that just seem like they need like one player away from just having an absolute juggernaut of a starting five. Actually, Witton did it. Unfortunately, the Grizzlies typically don't do that sort of move. They tend to build things in house and they've done a very good job of it thus far.

But that's what I want for them. It's just hard to look at those teams and say OG would do so much more there than he does in Toronto. know. Like, in any of these teams we're talking about, he's still plugging in as like a fourth or fifth starter for the most part. Yeah. I mean, it's a Miles Turner situation where it's like, I want to do more and then it's like you're actually at your best and better off doing what you're doing now, just better. Right. Two more. Just quickly. Boyan Bogdanovitch. I'm just, I'm going for inertia, apparently, because I'm still still the pistons. I think the asking, the asking price for him seems pretty high right now. There's reports that the pistons are like drawing the line at unprotonial. first. And mind you, that is, you know, negotiating through the media as we do every year at this time. But there's no real rush to trade Boyon. Like, he could be useful to them next season. He's going to be

useful to a lot of teams in the offseason. I just don't see the rush. That's what I was going with. Like, the logic of the logic that brought Boyon over there in the first place will still apply next year. So what would be the rush if they're not getting exactly what they want from people? their team is going to be still painfully young. They're still going to be in development mode. And they're still going to need adults in the building, quite frankly, while they're trying to get these guys right. And so, yeah, I could see them just being like,

we're going to sit on the sky. Yeah, I could see that too, if only because it sounds like Detroit is just asking for a lot, for a lot of guys who I didn't even know we're still, like, above average NBA players, like Alec Berks and Merlin's Noel. It's just, I kind of just want to be done with the Detroit trade situation. So I hope they actually do something.

but we'll see. And then last guy I have on the list here. Trade Market All-Star. Guy who has been all-trade four years in the running, John Collins. For some reason I see him as a net. I see the market kind of swinging that way. It does feel like we are at a John Collins depression point

in terms of what his value is league-wide. In a way that I don't, again, don't quite understand. I'll tell you that much. I think he's really good. and I could see the Nets in their position, as we've talked about, wanting to make a case to Katie, wanting to make improvements to their front court. Like, let's get in a combo four or five, who's dynamic, who can play, like, in between Durant and Claxton and makes sense

in a way that Ben Simmons often does not. And I could see them really talking themselves into that. And most importantly, I don't think it would take a ton to get him at this point. Like, it's, you know, Joe Harris and his contract would, I think, would be pretty important to make the deal work. And beyond that, you can kind of negotiate, whether it's some kind of, of picks, heavily protected, seconds, some younger prospects. I mean, look, the Cam Thomas stock is through the roof.

Maybe we're starting in conversation there, but I kind of like John Collins for the Nets. I've tried to come up with teams that are good enough. That makes sense. It seems like nobody thinks John Collins is that good or worth his contract or whatever. and Atlanta, even though they treat him like, you know, he's basically Jerome Williams, they can't seem to get it right either. They don't want to just give the guy away. At the same time, they're not using him in such a way that it's obvious what his value is.

And so, yeah, I can just see this just dragging out still painfully. He will be in Atlanta Hawk, although I would love to see again a contender. like I mentioned in our trade podcast whenever that was. I don't know if that was last week or two weeks ago. I would love to see Golden State do something to get him in there.

Yeah, for our sake, I hope it goes to a different team. Like, it seems like the biggest issue is his contract at this point. It seems like the Hawks want to just dump him. So maybe a team that's used to paying the tax like Golden State or the Clippers or Brooklyn, whatever, can just like get a distressed asset

and make something up them. Just please, something with John Collins. I just, I need something new from him, just for his sake, for our sake for everyone. This is just what we do now, though. Once more on to the breach, another year, another year of trade rumors with him, with Brad Beale, with so many of these guys now, they just cannot get

off the market. But welcome to our health. I know. Any other predictions? Oklahoma trading for another Jalen? Isn't Jalen Johnson on the Hawks? Can we get him into O'KC? Let's get Jailen-N-N-Welle in there. I think I think there's some Jalen options.

It's a deep cut. I like it. All right. We'll see. But enjoy the trade deadline, everyone. We'll be back next week to talk about it all. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo. Thank you to Benjamin Cruz for sitting in here.

We're stealing him away from his wrestling podcasts and whatnot. So we appreciate you taking time, slumming it with the end for you. We'll see you next week.