The Ringer NBA Show - LaMelo’s Creativity, Michael Porter Jr.’s Development, and All-Rookie Teams | Ringer NBA University

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

Kevin O’Connor and J. Kyle Mann discuss the development of some of the young stars in the league, including Zion Williamson (3:32), LaMelo Ball (9:57), and Michael Porter Jr (45:16). They also discuss which players could be named to the All-Rookie teams (30:15). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor and J. Kyle Mann Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer FC is your podcast home for all things soccer on the Ringer. Join us on Monday and Thursday for Stadio hosted by Ryan Hunt and Musa Akwanga as they cover the major European football leagues and a lot more. On Wednesday, Arsenal Legend and former England international Ian Wright hosts Rite's House, discussing the latest in European football with a rotation of special guests. Check out Ringer FC on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Basketball is very good. Welcome to Ringer NBA University. I'm Kevin O'Connor. and here today is the ringers j kyle man what's going on today kyle not too much kev how are you doing i'm doing pretty well this morning it's been a busy week that's a good thing you know i got some

stuff i'm working on that i'm excited about we were on bills pod yesterday that was a good time yeah that was a lot of fun i i enjoy i enjoy going on bill's pod and and just uh hearing his perspective on things and especially enjoyed um it was right in our wheelhouse i felt like that conversation was. It was just fun to talk about a really great player and a really special, you know, historically special season that he's having, Nicola Yokic. We talked about Nicola Yokic. Touched on Michael Porter, Jr., who we'll talk about a little bit later.

We do have to say last week on group chat, on the Ringer NBA show, you may have heard the guys discussed that our friend and colleague, Jonathan Charks, was diagnosed with cancer. And that's why he's been absent from pods in recent weeks. Charks announced it on Twitter last week and on there you can find a link to his blog which his wife melissa is using to share updates at caringbridge.org um it's really sad news charx is a friend of ours i've known him since before the ringer launched i think maybe since 2014 2015 i've known him he's been a friend he's a friend of

you and i kyle and um what we miss podcasting with him and sending our best to john and his family yeah absolutely and you know i've i've known i mean i've worked with sharks for two years ish now for a while but talked to him for a long time like sharks is one of those people that like um and i never forgot this either that like you know in my time like doing work with the NBA and stuff too is that like even before i was like working at like an advertising agency like sharks and i would email about basketball and things like that so you know just a great guy and what i would say is just um you know one of the more focused and positive people that I know, and I think that we should, you know, just mirror that focus and positivity,

sending it his way for him to, you know, to fight and just battle this. And I know that he will and I'm hopeful and, you know, just praying and thinking about his family. So, absolutely. Charks is one of the nicest dudes I know. His wife, Melissa, met her when she came out to L.A. with Charks a couple years ago, great, great human being and their beautiful son Jackson, and just sending all the best to them and hopefully get the charts on here sometime. Talk basketball. I miss it, man.

I miss talking basketball with you, Charks. But I'm sending you all the best, man. One thing I would tag on the end of that was Varyer said that low-down, rotten scoundrel, Justin Verier, said that the Charks could convince them to talk about the six-man on the Orlando Magic. I just want to say right now, I felt like that was a shot at us,

But you don't have to convince us, sharks. We obviously would love to talk. There's no convincing. Come on and let's do it. We've missed you, buddy. We might be talking about some six men today, Kyle, but we are going to start off with some big stuff that happened in last night's game on Tuesday. One night after losing by 15 points, the Pelicans got a huge win, Kyle, over the Warriors.

They won by five. They needed this one badly because now they only trail the spurs by two games for the 10 seed, the final spot in the playing tournament. Pelicans have six games left. The Spurs had eight, but that's eight games and 12 days to close the season. Spurs have lost four in a row now, and both of those teams have really, really difficult schedules down to stretch, but the Spurs with eight games and 12 days, that's pretty tough. And I'd personally bet on the Pelicans that take that final spot.

Kyle, do you also have faith in New Orleans to get the 10 seed? I mean, they've been pretty up and down. It's hard to say for sure that consistency has been a battle for them. And it's a battle for young players. And it's a team that is built around, you know, their key pieces are younger players. Of course, it's getting to the point, too, with Ingram, though, where it's just like, you're not really, you know, that's not an excuse for you anymore. Zion obviously is working towards consistency defensively. Still, they're still working to optimize that roster around him, obviously.

But in terms of like them, their scenario versus the Spurs scenario, I think it behooves the, the Pelican. to go ahead and try to make that move. You know, they don't want to, you know, they don't have any incentive to sort of do any kind of experimental thing here towards the end of the season. I know, you know, teams do that. Sometimes you have to look at like the last 10 to 20 games of the NBA season. Teams shift into a totally different mode sometimes. So the Pelicans, I think they can do it.

Like they're so up and down, like on any given night, they could beat anybody. But that's, you know, that's a lot of NBA teams. But they have a special talent in Zion who, on any given night, and especially in a tournament in a one game scenario. I mean, you just never know what he's going to do. Is he going to go for 38 on, you know, on like 65% shooting? You never know with the Pelicans, but they definitely could do it. I agree with you.

Well, I mean, you mentioned Zion still finding defensive consistency. And I thought with last night's game, I came away thinking it was one of his better performances. And it wasn't because of the stuff that we usually see. He only had 23 points. Dremongree did a really good job defending him, made everything tough. He had seven assists, but he also had six turnovers. But he was tenacious from the jump in the game. He was locked in from an effort standpoint.

And that showed with the clutch plays down the stretch. He grabbed the rebound away from Wiggins, just ripped it away from him. He deflected the ball away from Mulder, which essentially clinched the game when they got the ball back. And, you know, he's going to have way more, you know, epic offensive. performances. But last night, it was effectively a playoff game for the Pelkins. They had to win that game. And he came out right out

of the gate, played hard, and it felt like he was making more of those plays that we saw him making college. Plays that are sometimes, you know, effort plays. Sometimes it goes beyond the box score. He made winning plays. And Kyle, I can't help but think this could be a sign of what's to come for his on when that

all does click. Yeah. And he's effectively, the last two seasons have been sort of like one rookie, you know, volley for him. Like in terms of, and then when you can combine the fact that like COVID, obviously, that you have to put that as an asterisk next to everything because it's like really disrupted the rhythm of development and like the flow of games and learning and things like that.

And I think that like for Zion, he, yeah, whenever he gets into that situation and his backs against the wall and he starts, you know, he's really motivated and he's sort of like smoke coming out his nostrils kind of thing. Like, he's, he's terrifying. And it's like, I don't know if it's an issue of what I call like the info lag thing, where it's like his mind is still catching up to the speed of the game so that his body can do the things that it does. I mean, I've been a little disappointed by just the fact that he, with defenders that

are as athletic as he is, usually you hope to see just like this wild athleticism that you have to kind of rain in. and we just didn't see that. And I think that's been the most disappointing part of it for me with him. But, yeah, I mean, as he starts to put that sort of positional real-time IQ together, to the point where, you know, if he's just going to be this, like, outrageous downhill offensive force, you know, he needs to be more dynamic than that as a player. He needs to be impacting the game in more ways.

And, yeah, I mean, it's going to be interesting to see him in this scenario where he's going to be, measured up against like winning basketball like these are games that matter and but also he needs to get away from you need you have to get away from your motivation being conditional like that too that's another thing oh like based on the height of the game you know yeah the importance of the game yeah like the bob ori syndrome you know it's like i know tim duncan made fun of robert or he's just like yeah he only plays at the end of the year ideally you don't do that but um i don't know defensively he's he's got a long way to go, but it's been promising. Yeah, I mean, I think that's been one of the underlying disappointments of the entire season for New Orleans.

I mean, you have Eric Bledsoe going from one of the better on-ball defenders last season to one of the worst ones this season with New Orleans. That's a matter of effort and focus. Guys like Vernon Ingram, Lonzo Ball, I thought they were better defenders with the Lakers than they were with the Pelicans, especially Ingram. Lonzo is still at times their most active defender. But, you know, overall, like you look at this Pelicans team, sometimes it's guys like, Najee Marshall coming off the bench, the ones providing the spark. He's a hurricane of energy, yeah. Oh, man. He's a blast.

Yeah. He's a blast. We have a Kenny Hustle nickname for Kenrick Williams in Oklahoma City. Is there a nickname for Najee Marshall? Is he worthy of a nickname yet? Does he have a name that's appropriate for a nickname, Kyle? We have anything off the top of your head. Oh, man, no. Let me think about that. I'll put a pin in that. I'll come back. Naji nickname written down. we go. Yeah. I think with New Orleans, this, this team, like I said, I like their odds of catching the spurs here. And that's not necessarily a knock against the spurs either. Also last night, we had Lamello Ball, who's been back for three games now facing off against my guy,

Killian Hayes and the Detroit Pistons. Kyle, you had some thoughts about Lamello kind of following it up after our conversation with Bill yesterday. We talked a lot about creativity. What's on your mind with Lamello? Well, I mean, watching Lamello last night, he's sort of easing back into easing back into the flow of the game and things like that. There were a few just like broad things that I noticed in the basketball sense is that for Lamello, he had a couple plays that that really stood out to me. I texted you one of them. Did you get to check out that clip? I did see that clip. He did one where he attacked with his right hand and sort of like adjusted midair without switching hands.

He did this really interesting move with touch, like took the contact. It was almost, it wasn't like Jordanesque where he like totally reloaded midair, but he did this, this really cool overhand adjustment midair. And I was just thinking about, I don't know that he gets enough credit for his creativity midair.

He kind of had like a reputation to somebody who avoided contact. But he's had some really, really impressive craft around the rim. but I got thinking about creativity in general. We were talking about how Lamello was in a position to experiment and to grow into this player who was really comfortable out there taking chances and things like that. And it reminded me of this clip of John Cleese talking about creativity, about riding.

And he was just saying, if you're not comfortable, one of the things that he said, he does this creative talk, He's done it a lot over the years. One of the things he said was, if you're not comfortable playing, just being playful and messing around, you're not going to be in a position to be creative. And it just got me thinking about, you know, we had a conversation on Bill's Pod yesterday about what cultivates that in players, what grows their ability to have like a really wide vocabulary as a passer. And it seems like at lower levels, you know, the space to be playful and, you know, the space to be playful

and to play and to experiment is really important. And I think a thing that seems to differ Lamello from other prospects is that he, you know, a lot of prospects come up in these situations where the immediate pressure of winning prevents them from getting maybe the opportunities that they need to grow in the way that they need to. And you see this in high school. You'll see, you know, a player goes to a really good program, the coach, because the coaches have vested interest. They want to keep their jobs.

They want to win games. It's not this just wide open wild scenario where they can just tinker and be like, I'm just happy that you developed. No, I mean, they want to win, you know. And so, but I guess I was just thinking about that too. And it reminded me of this comment that David Thorpe, who was on True Hoop, I mean, he's like a legendary longtime internet basketball. And one of the first trainers of NBA players going back a long time,

he made a comment on tying into this. So David Thorpe and John Clee is two people that I never would have paired together in the past, but I will here. So David Thorpe on the Basketball Immersion podcast, which is a fantastic podcast that I would recommend if you want to learn more about the nitty gritty of basketball. Have you ever listened to that one, Kev? I have not. You should try it out. It's really good. So it's a lot of really in the weed stuff, but it's great.

I don't listen to a ton of pods. You don't? I got to carve out more time for pods. I don't listen to pods. It's a me problem. Add it to the list of things Kevin doesn't do. He rides the bike and plays Madden. We know that.

And plays war zone. Yes. Playing a guitar. But yes, basketball immersion. Yes, basketball immersion. Stay with me, damn it. All right. So just thinking about war zone over here.

David Thorpe, David Thorpe made this comment about one time, one time he was saying that in his sessions where they're with players and they're running like five on five. if a player experiments and tries something that they've never done before, like not in the fancy sense, but they're just trying something that stretches their problem-solving skill set, their ball handling, whatever, you know, their ball skills, they stop practice and applaud, that's what he said. And I thought that was really interesting, and it's just kind of an interesting developmental thing

where with young players, you know, a lot of times you like discourage players from going towards the boundaries of maybe whatever their perceived role is. And I don't know culturally what it's like in the rest of the world, but in the American game, I just thought that was really interesting. I don't know. What do you think about that in the creativity sense? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because I think from a creative standpoint, like I can only speak to stuff that I do. You know, I'm not on the basketball court thrown behind the back passes. Or like you said, that lamello shot, that flotery hit. It wasn't even really a floatery. He pushed the ball up midair. Like it looked like he was going into a runner. And then when he was heavily contested, he just midair, pushed it up,

just straight up into the air. Softly pushed it up. Like it was a touch. Yeah, it was a beautiful shot on the fly. Like that requires a lot of creativity. But like with writing, for example, sometimes ideas just pop into your head midday. Sometimes you need to carve out two or three hours at night where it's quiet and you're

just chilling out. You're just viving and you're just in your own thoughts thinking about it and trying to put, you know, fingers to keyboard or, you know, pencil to paper, like whatever it works for you. And it's like that with music too. Like if you like you're a musician as well, Kyle, it's a type of thing where you can sit down and really try to grind out something and a lick you're trying to learn on guitar, a chord progression, or if you're trying to write a song, exploring different chord progressions, trying different variations on chords, you know, adding a ninth, all this.

type of stuff, you know, changing it to a seventh, whatever it might be. And that requires time. And I do wonder if maybe guys like a mellow or even a Yokic who we talked about a lot on Bill's pod about his creativity and his vision that he has. And I made the point that I think a lot of these guys that some of them were just born with the ability to be this creative. Like they have this path to get there. But what we didn't really talk a lot about on the pod was the nurturing that it takes to get people to that step like Yokic and Nomello, they don't get to the point where they are today playing at the highest levels of basketball without hours and hours and hours of practicing creativity.

And that's what you're touching on here, right? And that they were afforded that at some point in their lives or throughout their entire lives. Yeah, I think that the rigid, like competitive, like we have to win at every level can work against you. I'm not saying that they didn't like, Chino Hills won games. They were so talented that they just overwhelmed people. they played a style that that enabled that. And I think, too, something interesting that Bill said that ties into a point that our mutual

friend Ben Taylor said this the other day, pointed this out, that it's interesting in basketball right now that we have all these unicorns, but we have these special players that have kind of came that surprised us, you know, because I think, and I think this ties into the way that we evaluate players, you know, on the horizon is that like, you know, Janus kind not for everybody, but he surprised us. I think that early for Zingis surprised us. He's kind of, you know, that's a whole other conversation.

But, and then just thinking about some of the guys, Luke at it and surprise us, but some of the more special players have been not necessarily guys that we totally saw coming. And Yokic is a big one. And just an interesting example of creativity. And I was thinking about Lamello too, just what do you think?

He's obviously a special player right now. He's obviously really, he has been a little bit of a surprise for some people. But for him to level up to like really, when I'm watching him score, it seems like for him to go to that next level of like I'm really feeling myself tonight, I'm going to, I want, I'm going to like burn you. I'm going to destroy you. What do you think the hurdle for him in his offensive game is like what what bridge does he need to cross? literally like talking about like literal ball skills shooting passing whatever it is mainly mainly talking about scoring here though what do you what do you think he needs to do where is that going to be where where can he Tyrese halberton has similar questions but where can he really open up a new frontier

for himself as a scorer to become like a megastar and you're talking to guys average of 25 plus points yeah yeah i mean i think with him it's two things we're seeing the development of the jumper already he has deep range, continuing to assure that this is for real and sustainable. That's a big thing. We're seeing the touch with in-between shots, with floaters and runners, maybe integrating even more pull-ups,

some more complex moves from mid-range, not that he needs it a lot because he's getting to the rim and shooting a lot of threes. And then at the rim, he certainly has shown a lot of growth in one year. When we saw him playing Australia, the player that he was compared to what he is now, he is doing a better job of handling.

in contact that I think we saw in Australia. He is showing even more ability on top of the creativity. He has always shown the will and the desire to be crafty around the rim. I think that example you talked about earlier, the kind of push floater mid-air adjusting because he was contested and there was a little bit of contact shows the type of style of at-room finisher he's going to continue to turn himself into. But the more he can draw files and get to the free throw.

And the more that helps guys go from becoming the, you know, the 17, 18, 19 point per game score to the 25 plus, potentially, if you have enough volume on the offensive end. So to me, it's, you know, continuing to do the things that are only going to take time, strength, you know, getting stronger over the course of time, getting more physical, but also just, you know, further expanding some of the skills at the ram and from midrange. I think from three, I feel a pretty high level of confidence with the adjustments that he's already made. How about you, Kyle? Like, what is it going to take for Lamella to burst through and get to that point? I think for the top level scores, I mean, free throw production is one of the things you got to start off saying. It's where is he going to be able to generate, you know, foul line production in that sense? I mean, becoming a more physical craftier around the rim, things like that, getting guys into the air, just improving.

He doesn't really play like that. He's got, I always call this like a tuxedo. he's got a tuxedo offensive game where he doesn't really touch people he just kind of floats between you know he doesn't really create a lot of contact that that prevented him from being efficient in the past but don't want to get the suit dirty car yeah well that's one of people that have hung with me for a while now know that that's one of my like terms is tuxedo score jamaul murray used to be one in the playoffs last year he graduated because murray's actually bigger than he used to be but uh with lamello i think that he's shown the ability to do the catch and shoot thing he's shown the

to do the reload thing. I was watching him shoot threes last night. He was keeping his feet down. He was he was balanced. I was really encouraged by that. But what I was really noticing, though, is you do need to have some wrinkle of unassisted I'm going to get you in your game. If you're, I'm going to get you suck a in your game if you're going to be an offensive star. And I was looking at like, pull up jumper is one of the big ones for guys who are ball dominant. Can I kill you with that? This season, he's attempted 37 jumpers on minimum three dribbles, and he's 33.8% on those right now. So I don't know. I just was noticing whenever he gets into that, he's gotten a lot better about not getting out over his skis as an offensive player, like just being balanced and comfortable

and staying within himself. But whenever he pushes it to like, I want to go get a bucket, that's when he would get really wild in the past. I'm just curious if he's going to be a to expand in that way and like, you know, stay, stay balanced and get in kind of a dribble pull-up game. I don't know. I'm not sure. And then the foul drawing too. I think those are the two most likely ways that he's going to do it. Because I don't see him being like a big time heavy downhill pressure guy. I don't see him being a post guy, you know, things like that.

That's kind of what I expect. We're talking about scoring here. And you mentioned Tyree Salibor and earlier Anthony Edwards. Are you and I on the same page with the Mello was rookie of the year? or is there any chance for Edwards to catch him? Well, it's kind of, well, the three horse race, yeah, is like Hallie. There are different player types, too, which is kind of difficult. And it kind of got me thinking about volume versus role in efficiency.

Like, I know a lot of people really want to give Edwards a bump just because of like the width of what he does as a score, you know. And he shows the signs of being that, like, top level score creator type. I don't know, I still think that it's Lamello. I mean, Lamello just missed, how many games did he miss? 21, something like that. But I still think that it's Lamello. I think that, you know, Wolf's fans have hated me for saying this, but, you know, the efficiency does play into it.

And I think another thing, too, that will get into, like, the all-rooky team's discussion that we're going to talk about here shortly. You kind of have to really consider when you're comparing rookies as, like, what kind of context did they come into? you know like wiseman really took a tough tough lump this year because he came into a situation that didn't really enable him to grow in the like we were talking about to grow in the specific ways that he needs to he had more of a refined role whereas with the wolves they were like hey let it fly anthony edwards like go go let it fly and they were fine with him being if what if what kind of year do

you think wiseman would have had if he had been on the wolves a probably a pretty fresh one still. I think a lot of what works with Minnesota this season with Nas Reid and Carl Anthony Towns sharing the floor together was that Nasree can also space. And I know James Wiseman can too, but I still like, I wanted to see James Wiseman more frequently in a rim running role. And I'm not sure Minnesota would have been able to give that opportunity with guys out over the course of the season. Ricky Rubio is not a down guy who can have downhill pick and roll screeners

necessarily because he doesn't draw the defense out. I thought the opportunity was there with Stefan Curry. It just didn't happen that often until towards the end when he got hurt. So I mean, I think it could have worked. It would have been very interesting. And with Carl and Ethan Towns you can put him anywhere on the floor.

But with a mid-year head coaching change, I think it would have also been a frustrating season. Why do you feel differently about the fit there had they taken Wiseman? I think that you're right. He probably would have been continued to be inefficient because he's not a particularly dynamic post score and that's where a lot of his bread was buttered in the past quote unquote buttered that's just what he did i think you're right keeping him you would think that this would have been a good opportunity um but it it had sort of um i guess for what the wolves were wanting or for what the warriors were wanting versus what wiseman needed uh it didn't totally sink up you know he wasn't really in a position to be efficient i'm just thinking like you have me thinking about wiseman and edwards right now on the note of creativity, like you mentioned

earlier, with certain guys, and let's bring Killian Hayes into this too. Like, Killian Hayes has shown the ability to be a creative passer. Anthony Edwards at times has sometimes been maybe a little bit too eager to be a shooter. Sometimes do you think

that there are certain guys at a youth level? I mean, this is very difficult, but like for Lamello, he had the runway to be creative. For some players, do you think it would be better to not have that runway? and that freedom to do whatever, whatever, so they can learn discipline and fundamentals and things like that earlier on.

I mean, it's difficult to coach. It's different to difficult to lead. But I wonder, like, at a youth level, it's almost difficult to have that attention to detail with coaching because you want to give guys freedom to, but that can develop bad habits too. You know, and I think we see that where some players enter the NBA, they have to change their habits and change what they do.

I'm just curious about your thoughts. Matt, because just bringing up the wolves and seeing how Anthony Edwards has gotten better this season, maybe with that structure, I wonder how he would look today if he had that structure earlier in his life. Yeah, there are just like a million variables that you have to point out too. Just that, like, you know, Lamello grew up in a family that was like, he had older brothers that had kind of set up this environment for him where he was playing a dad who had attempted, had played in college. There was a basketball family playing basketball 24. All the time, he was just immersed in it. Edwards grew up with different tools, number one. He's physically

just off the charts, as we've said, ad nauseum. So he had advantages, which I always think is important too. He had physical advantages that, you know, Lamello's not small. He's not unathletic. He's very light on his feet. He's quick. I think that we talk about athleticism, too, in this, like, really boxed in way that it's just explosiveness. It's just power, things like that. But I think that Ant Man, coming to the game late, I think that he got into the game and discovered, I'm this, like, overwhelming athlete.

I'm this, oh, I can get my shot. He enjoyed it. Obviously, he's talked about who his heroes were. Like, Duane Wade, Wayne Wade used to cook people with us, athleticism, get downhill score, things like that. They are different, I guess, in the fact that just the way that Mello was guided. It made sense for him to develop in that way. For Edwards, it's been sort of flipped the other direction like you were saying. And I think maybe that we're overstating how much

freedom he had. He had a lot of freedom. But I mean, with Carl getting back in the lineup, with Russell getting back in the lineup, that is more structure around him that is going to help him to expand and not be so ball dominant, not be so, not be so reliant on just getting his all the time. And those things are going to help him grow. So he's had sort of a flipped path. And some guys have this. Some guys, some guys grow up like with those advantages and then they'd learn it later. Like we've seen it with Levine. We've seen it with like Donovan Mitchell was a crazy athlete coming up and it has kind of learned those things. And we've seen it with DeMar de Rose. And so it, there are a lot of ways to get there. I kind of said this on San Bacini's pod that I did recently.

but if you're interested in doing it, you can do it. I just think it's a lot harder to reverse it, in my opinion. Well, Anthony Edwards is going to have this entire offseason to work on his game. Did you see his quote the other day when he was asked about what he's going to work on? What do you say? He said, I ain't telling nobody. I want to come back like Houdini. He's already one of the best quotes in the league, man.

Houdini, does he even, how does that apply to Houdini? Houdini was an escape artist, right? Was he saying, people are going to try to box me in as an efficient creator and score and I'm going to escape. Is that what you're saying? I will not be contained.

His comes back with a 60% true shooting percentage next season. What a bunch of geeks. We're going to take a quick... We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back. All right. So, Kyle, next Monday on the Ringer, I'm going to be posting my awards ballot. This week I wrote about Nicola Yokic as MVP. So this week I'm doing some, you know, early prep, you know, before I really dive in over the weekend about all rookie teams, all NBA teams. But since this is Ringer and B University, let's focus on the younger players.

We talked about Lamello. We talked a little bit about Anthony. Edwards, too. Those guys are obviously going to be on all rookie teams. They're probably going to lead most ballots and Tyree Salibor and two for rookie of the year. But I'm curious, how are you looking at some of these all rookie teams? There's 10 spots. Is there anybody who stands out for you that is definitely on a first team all rookie or should be? Not there any under the radar guys that people aren't really focused on right now? I have some guys that are maybe fringe, haven't been talked about a ton, one in particular, but I kind of went with. I kind of went

with, I mean, it's very guard heavy, honestly. It's very guard and wing heavy. I went with, obviously, Halliburton, Lamello, Edwards. I actually have Desmond, Desmond Bain, just on efficiency. And it's your fifth for the first team. And, well, and quickly is the other one. That was, that was, that was my other one. Both of those guys are contributing to, you know, to teams. Well, I, it's really difficult. It's like, you have to kind of weigh, like we were talking about the absence of structure. versus like contributing to winning. Do you want like in a lesser role? Like I kind of was trying to weigh that into.

So that would be my first. So Hallie Lamello, Edwards, quickly, and then Bain. Bain is actually 22 minutes for game, 44.8% from three. He's actually been one of the better spot-up players in the league. We expected all this stuff. This is the Bain Hive, Unite, Rise Up. We saw this coming.

Yeah, baby. He's a great relocating shooter. He can body rolling players. He's great. 80, yeah, 83, but he's only, you know, 9.2 points per game. Anyway, so, but quickly, you know, has had a role on a, on a team that's going to be a playoff team that's, that's competent and it's kind of overshot kind of what we expected. And I think we've talked about those other three guys had nauseam. Second team might be some surprises. I went ahead and just had Wiseman on here. I think that

even, even his inefficient heads he's been, you know, he did, he did some things. We'll just leave at that. Sadiek Bay, who I think that you could argue could be first team. I think I wouldn't be surprised if some people might. He's been really, you know, shot it really well, been a versatile player. Pat Williams. Jayshon Tate is one of those two.

Thank you. I was waiting for you to mention Jayshon Tate. Thank you. Well, that's a thank you. Asterisk, though. He's one of those guys who is in like the app. Would he have produced in another situation? Now, he's, you get put in situations and you capitalize on them. That's,

kind of the way life works. You know, it's kind of the omission commission thing. What do you have a take on? Do you have a J. Sean take? Well, could he have been better in a winning context with the way he in which he plays? He is a hard nose, versatile defender. He is a plug and play guy on the offensive end of the floor. I wish he shot the ball better. But I like the way they can use him as a screener.

Imagine him in the Bruce Brown Nets role, you know, something like that with him. I'm just intrigued by Tate in a different context. But the fact is he didn't, you know, he was in Houston that lost a lot of games. And he produced in that context. He had an opportunity, 30 minutes per game. He's played basically every single game this season for them. I love, I think Jason, Jayshon Tate is a borderline first team all rookie. I mean, he's going to be in consideration for that with my ballot, likely to be like 100% second team, but possibly first team.

We'll see. Yeah, you love the Bruce Brown Nets for all. That's one of you, I'm obsessed with there. There's guys in the league that should be utilizing that, that aren't. Are you just mainly talking about guys who are in that like beefier wing can play up and like hit threes,

but also give you not a new concept, by the way. Put them on the baseline and the dunker spot, use them as a screener. Not every team can do it. Not every team is the personnel, but I do think that there's a role there for some players in certain situations that has been unexplored. If you have big players who are giving you crazy creation,

like a Harden, not that these guys have played together this season. I mean, just like a Durant too. I guess you can invert it and put a player like there. We don't have to get it. That's the whole of the conversation. The last one was Isaac Acoro,

I think, deserves some more credit than he's gotten lately. Isaac Acoro, I pulled up some defensive stats. O'Coro had defended the eighth most drives in the NBA this season, and he was 74th percentile and points per chance allowed for a rookie. No other rookie was in the top 25. Pat Williams was in the top 30, and that's an impressive stat for a rookie.

He also has had really great defensive versatility on B-Ball Index, had him defending basically all five positions. you know, the five, not as much, but he's guarding at the point of attack a lot. That is very difficult in the NBA to do. The shooting and stuff, wildly erratic, the creation, wildly erratic. It needs to come around, like we've said before the draft that has held true. He's a guy that I'd feel really good about. You know, he had a big game the other night. I think he had something like 30-something points the other night. The shooting is going to be the swing skill for him, because if he can defend at the level that I think he's capable of and hit threes, that's a,

good NBA player right there. You and I are largely on the same page. I mean, Okoro, I have him penciled in into what I would choose here. A couple of names you didn't mention that I just want to bring up real quickly. Jada McDaniels from Minnesota. And only 24 minutes per game. That might hurt him in the discussion, but he's been excellent individually on the defensive end of the floor, shooting the ball well at 37 percent from three on the year. He's somebody that I have like on the bubble first spot. Teo Maladon from OKC. Another guy just been steady.

He's had some big games for OKC. We talked about getting opportunity. You know, with creativity, he's getting minutes on the floor to actually try to develop. And I like the progress. He's made Campazo from Denver. Unorthodox rookie. He's played some important minutes for that team with guys

being in and out of the lineup. You know, we've seen Monti Morris miss time, Jamal Murray missing time. Campazo's been pretty effective for them. And then I think Isaiah Stewart from the Detroit business. He's been just bringing constant energy. He hit a three the other night. I think there's some untapped perimeter skill. He hit a three the other night.

That's one of your bullet points. Just like I wanted to say that there's, he's not just an energy guy around the ramp. Right. He's not just a bulldozer inside, he's ripping down rebounds, finishing off, dump off. passes. He's not just, you know, a rim protector. I think there's more skill to his game that he's been able to show in 21, 22 minutes per game this season. Like there's something else there that we

might see in the future, but we didn't get to see a lot of this year. But those are some of the other guys that come to mind from me that are going to be in consideration. It's a pretty, it's a pretty interesting rookie class. Pretty good. Honestly. Yeah. I like a lot of these guys. They have distinguished styles. Yeah. And I think a lot of these guys you can see being in the NBA for a long way, you know, a long, long way to go.

10 plus years for some of them, a lot of them. There weren't any like big swing, big miss types, you know, but there are guys that are just going to be there. Like compazo is interesting to me just because you get into when you're looking at rookies specifically of like the raw number fallacy,

specifically for players just coming into the league. You run through there like you were saying, you're like, you know, numbers, not blowing my hair back. I'm bald. I don't have any here.

But if, like, if you're just looking at what Campazo has done in a role on a good team, on a playoff team, he's contributed, you know. One name we did not mention who will not be on a all rookie team, Killeen Hayes, my guy, missed a lot of time this season and also as a score has just been dreadfully inefficient. He can pass the hell out of the ball already. I think he's one of the better guard defenders as a rookie. in the entire NBA. He's a pretty rock solid defender, period, regardless of age and experience.

I still like him long term. I still like what Killeen Hayes could be made a video about him last week for the void. But I am curious, Kyle, about your thoughts. Like, scouting doesn't stop at draft time. Scouting continues throughout a player's career. You watch Summer League to get Intel. You watch preseason, regular season. It all matters.

With Killing Hayes and how poorly he shot the ball and scored the ball overall, this season. Where are you at with him as a score? What are the things he needs to get better at? Do you have any hope for him as a score and as one of the lead on ball presences for the pistons in the long term? I have hope. I haven't moved as much because I wasn't as high as you and sharks were.

I don't know. The efficiency of it is the question for me. You know, he had the, he resembled. That's the, that's the pitfall that you can fall into with these guys is they resemble this archetype that is working in the NBA and then we try to force them into it where it's like you know maybe they would be better in this like limited role being more efficient in this limited role are they being stretched by what they're being asked to do um kill you and i think it's just so incomplete you know i was i was going to tease you bill was teasing you yesterday which

i thought was pretty funny but i was going to tease you about just what do you have to say for yourself KOC, but I was going to ask you a question. If I, you know, said, hey, KOC, your life depends on this decision. In the next five years, Sadiq Bay or Killian Hayes, who is the more consistent, valuable, viable, viable NBA player?

Over the next five years? Yeah, if you had to bet. In all likelihood, it's Sadiek Bay. If it's next 10 years, then that gets a little bit more difficult for me. But what we're seeing from Steve Bay this season? Why 10 years? What would happen in years six through 10?

It might take until year four when Killian Hayes is 23 years old for things to go, you know, ah, it's connecting. It works now. I'm not shooting 33% from the field. I am now, you know, my body is strong enough to consistently hit these three pointers where I look good. Actually creating space. Now I can actually finish the play. I can actually finish around contact at the rim and use my creativity and the craftiness that he displays potential to have.

it might take until then. So first five years, Sidique Bay already looks like a knockdown shooter. Right. A rock solid defender, a good decision maker. Bottom line is Saddik Bay already in many ways looks like a vet.

And so in that sense, if it's just next five years, I'd take Sadiq Bay. His line is going to be kind of straight, whereas, like, you know, I agree with you. Killian could go higher. I guess the question is,

are there like benchmarks for that to happen? Who do you think is a benchmark of somebody that could follow? Killian. Well, I mean, and that's what I've been thinking about lately. So with Killian Hayes, he clearly has playmaking talent. You know, he can pass the ball. You know, saw that full core pass he made. It's just the accuracy of his lobs and kickouts. He is a freaking good passer. The question is going to be, it's like the Lonzo ball. I was going to say Lonzo. Is he Lonzo? It's Lonzo-esque in the sense that Lonzo is also a brilliant playmaker, but he's not.

a brilliant shock creator. And he is not a brilliant score. So the opportunities for him to create in the half court, to run pick and roll, to run an isolation and break down the defense and create for somebody else are limited. His playmaking is more slanted towards open court off of a defensive rebound when he,

you know, balls outlet it to him. He's creating it. It's beautiful to watch. With Killian Hayes, will it reach a point if his scoring doesn't develop that those opportunities in the half court are taken away and he's asked then to just be a spot up shooter, a cutter,

you know, maybe doing some of the dirty work. He can still have a career. I still think he can have a successful career being a great defender and a great open court playmaker. But will those opportunities go away at some point? That's where I, you know, my belief in him has fallen off a little bit

because sometimes those guys don't get those opportunities. those run out if they don't get better quickly. Yeah, that would have been a much better title for the video. My belief has fallen off somewhat. Kevin O'Connor. I would say, I mean, so inspiring. That'll get clicks. The algorithm really loves that.

That kind of self-doubt. The shooting is just so... The shooting is just so important. We've talked about this with Randall. It's just like some guys have that. And with Lonzo, it's like you were talking about the breaking people down and the playmaking. you know, that breaking down, like playmaking responds to, at a star level, if you want to have the ball in your hands a lot and ascend to that level where you're generating a lot of offense, the shooting and the scoring just has to be there. Otherwise, you become Ricky Rubio, who's a great passer. You know, if Ricky Rubio could shoot 40 plus percent from three off the dribble, what kind of player would he have been? You know, you just become, you become a different type of thing if you can't really shoot the ball consistently like Lonzo. You know, at the college level,

Level Lonzo elevated a whole offense. UCLA was one of the best offenses in the country that year, if not the best. But without the shooting at the next level, it just, it filters you in a way that's tough. Real quick to wrap up the all rookie talk right here. Give me your first team again, quick, five guys. I just went, I didn't do positions. So I said, I said, have positions on our rookie for what it's worth. There are no positions at basketball anymore, Kevin.

Yeah, that is. Thank you. Halliburton, Lamello, Edwards, quickly, Bain, actually. And second team? second team Bay Wiseman Pat Williams Okoro J. Sean Tate. I'm glad you have Tate on there. Wiseman, I disagree with.

I'm not going to act like I like paste around my yard for a month and thought about this guy. So my, you know, things are fluid. Things are evolving. You mentioned Emmanuel quickly earlier, Kyle. There's a game I'm really looking forward to tonight. It's the Denver Nuggets versus the New York Knicks. Both these teams, Knicks are red hot right now.

They're legit good. Their offense has gotten better. It's on fire lately on top of their defense being what it is. And the Denver Nuggets. We talked about the Yokich side of things a ton with Bill on his pod up on Wednesday. But we didn't talk a whole lot about Michael Porter Jr. I get a video coming out on him Thursday on the Ringer's YouTube channel. You should go subscribe so you can get that in your feed.

See my videos every Thursday. And Kyle, you get stuff always coming up. You've been doing your rookie reports. Michael Porter Jr., though. This guy has just been kick-ass, dude. Averaging 25 points. the last couple of weeks making it look super easy. Is this a leap we're witnessing right here, Kyle,

with Michael Porter, Jr.? It's a leap of opportunity for sure. I mean, it's sad that it happened. I do think that like Murray going down like we talked about with Bill, like it definitely affects Denver's ceiling. I definitely, his loss of his shot creation hurts them. But in terms of like Porter, I mean, he's been sensational in the last 11 games without, without him.

I mean, his scoring went from 18.9 to 25. His true shooting percentage went from 65.9 to 70.5. He's shooting better from three. He's had more opportunity. I'm sure that you go into this in your video. I haven't gotten to watch it yet. I mean, how much of the on-ball creation stuff have you witnessed and where do you think it is? We did talk a little bit about that in the video.

You know, ever since Murray went out, his off-ball screen opportunities have doubled. That's been the biggest leap. He's still he's getting more picking rolls. He's getting more isolations. It's still not a ton compared to some of the high volume guys. But Michael Porter Jr. said fairly recently how

his focus is offseason. He's not going to be Houdini like Anthony Edwards. He's actually specifically said he's going to work on his ball handling. And that is definitely an area where I think we have seen progress. He used to be a lot more stiff. I don't think he got as low. Maybe it was

due to his back issues that he had or has. I don't know if it's present or past tense there, hopefully past tense at younger levels, but he looks better off the dribble, but he still definitely has a long way to go to. He more than just a guy who is an elite shooter. I mean, he is an elite shooter. That's a good thing to only be.

But he has been better getting to the basket, but getting to another level where you're drawing five or six or seven foul or attempting five or six or seven free throws per game, that is going to be what would make him a annual 25 point per game plus scores, having that to lean on it. Like we talked about with Lamello earlier. So I was encouraged that he says that is going to be a priority for him. Do you see him as a guy that could, you know,

break through and be that level of score? Or do you look at this more as a, this is an opportunity, hot streak here? Because of the amount of shots is able to get per game playing off Yokic, largely. Yeah. Oh, I don't want to imply that it's a fluke. Absolutely is not a fluke. I think you're right about the ball handling and the, I mean, this guy is the Nuggets snagged an all NBA talent late in the lottery. They just flat out did. And that was what's so remarkable about the 2018 draft is. And we didn't, you know, his health is sort of like wane to the background in the conversation a little bit. Like we don't talk about it as much. There for a while, it was just like, this guy's broken. Like he's just not going to be able to get it was just like thing after thing after thing. Like drop foot was I think one of the first. of the things. Drop foot, yep. Yeah,

I remember, yeah, people talking about that a whole lot. But it's been a nice buffer for his development, for him to come along slowly where he wasn't overwhelmed

in the same way that, like, you compared him to like Anthony Edwards and things like that. Like, if he had been in a situation where he had been overly liberated, it might have been,

might have turned out, it might have been worse for him, honestly, because Yokicic alleviates some of his, weakness in the middle game now he has like shown i was watching him like get low you're absolutely right he used to run like a centaur that's that's what i would always think of i would call it yeah michael centauter juniors uh and he would that's a really terrible pun you guys can shun me for that

but he when he wasn't really comfortable creating off the dribble he because he was so upright and and his dribble would be upright he'd be very vulnerable with yokitch what's interesting is that like are so insanely good at hunting his own shot. He has such a high release point. He gets it and he makes it look really easy like you said. But good thing about Yokic is that they can play in sort of a triangle where, you know, he can, he doesn't have a shot, throws it to Yokic, immediately goes off ball and cuts. And he's an underrated cutter, good finisher. And I think that that has really been a nice, I noticed, too, that there's been a surge in his ball screen usage lately too. So I mean, that's a thing that, you know, I'm sure they're trying to kind of trickle in as, as they get towards

the playoffs. The real thing, circling back to it, that the real in the middle of the room is the Lakers. I mean, the Lakers are going to have the length to go out there and put on the floor to put somebody, you know, put somebody at the rim to bother him. I know Marcus Saul is getting healthy again. I mean, do you think that, like, do you, what do you think that MPJ is going to have to do in the playoffs to, like, elevate their ceiling? And is he, is he capable of it? Yeah, I mean, I think he's going to have to do what Jamal Murray did last year and have some just ludicrous defensive

ludicrous scoring performances. We've seen him make progress everywhere throughout his game. He's getting better in the defense event. He's getting better as a shot creator. He's getting better as a ball handler, but now it will have to be the time where you mentioned his uptick in pick and roll usage.

He's getting 2.9 pick and rolls per game since April 14th when Murray went down compared to 1.2 beforehand. 2.6. isolations per game compared to 1.2 before hand. Still not a lot. That's not a lot of ball screens. It's not a lot of isolations compared to higher volume

guys. That number is going to have to tick up. That number will have to double even more. I mean, you have to see him running six or seven pick and rolls per game, five or six, isolations, and for him to perform at the same elite efficiency

that he is on the lower volume. And if that happens, then I think Denver can make longer run than people expect. We don't know what the matchup will look like in the early round. Maybe they get an advantageous team to face. Maybe they don't. Maybe they do face the Lakers.

And that team is built to give them trouble with the personnel that they have. But overall with Michael Porter, I'm very, very encouraged and I'm very bullish on him. He has, his potential has risen in my eyes for what I believe he can be. And a lot of that is probably due to. situation, opportunity, environment, culture that Denver has, which is partially due to Yokic and

what Yokic brings as a player. For Porter to quickly go from a really dismal defender at times last season and in his past in college and high school to being still making some mistakes here and there, but becoming a

overall solid competitive defender. He doesn't need to be their lockdown guy. That's Aaron. and Gordon. If Porter is at least solid and has some great moments which he has, that's all you can ask for. And it seems to me, like I thought Austin Rivers, he had a

great quote maybe last week where he was asked about how his perception of Michael Porter before you got here compared to what he is now. And he said, you know, you hear all these things. You know, some guys have bad moments. And then you come here, he's like one of the best guys in the locker room. He's one of my favorite people to be around. He works hard.

He's a good guy. You know, good obviously, on self, fish, you know, he wants to make the right play. He's curious and wants to get better. And, you know, hearing that, like, it wasn't just like some media happy answer. It was a genuine response. Like, you could feel it. And that really checks out with what I've heard, you know, going back to when I reported the Nugget story a couple years ago, the year that he missed, people liked him. And they liked the progress that he was making as a person. And so this is now, I think, two or three year since he was drafted missed this whole rookie year. He seems to have grown up even more.

So I'm very confident what Michael Porter Jr. can be. It's really just a matter of some of the skill development with him. But I'm loving it, man. I'm loving watching him. And I think he gives him a real shot. Definitely. Two quick thoughts. How many cases are there in the NBA of two 611 or taller guys running a pick and roll together? I can't think of many off the top of my head. Can you think of another one? No. I mean, I mean, no. not in that way. Like we saw the other night that Lakers versus Nuggets game that the Lakers ran some AD pick and roll at the ball handler with Andre Drummond as the screener. That does not apply in the same way that a Michael Porter Jr.

Nicola Yokic pick and roll would. Not quite. The shooting and the shot creation ability there, it's pretty wild. The other thing I think that you hit on that we forget is that the hell thing has really eaten into his development. And it might have caused us to lean pestle. pessimistic more than was necessary. Because if you think about playing basketball as an adult, in an adult, like more sophisticated schematic environments of like higher level college, higher

level NBA, he has not had that much time. I mean, like, he was hurt. You know, the back stuff really lingered for him for a lot. Like, I remember when I was going back and like scouting him for the 2018 draft, there wasn't much tape available. I had to really go deep into the like the FBA stuff and the high school stuff and assume a lot. So I think that that is working to his advantage in terms of like, if you want to be positive, you know, that he's growing. And it's still, it's just insane that the Nuggets got him where they did. And that his upside is what it is.

I mean, his upside is one of the best scores in the NBA. And I think that that's not an exaggeration by any stretch. I make this point in the video. But when I think about what MPJ could provide to the Nuggets, I'm thinking about in the context of the fact that this is an MVP. Yokic, in all likelihood, will be the MVP who has a super high upside 22-year-old teammate. The way that you would feel if you heard that the clippers were getting Michael Porter Jr. Or the way you would feel if the Warriors were going to get Michael Porter Jr.

Or the Bucks, that's the level of player Yokic is this season. He is performing like a Steph, like a Yonis, like a Kauai. That's what he's been during the regular season. if Michael Porter Jr. becomes a 28 point per game guy, which no guarantees, but there's a chance and only 22 years old. I think that's a really smart point, Kyle, that he's misdevelopmental time or because he's been rehabbing or he's just been recovering. Yeah. He's getting all that time now to develop. If he becomes that guy, Denver's set up to be maybe the favorites for a long time.

Like we said yesterday, he is 25 years old. Then you get Jamal Murray back. I mean, I feel like, yeah, I mean, it's possible we're underrating what the Nuggets can be. Today we might be underwriting them. We could be underwriting what they can be in the years to come. Which, by the way, they have their first round draft back this year.

They have flexibility for trade, more trades, free agency. I'm really excited with what the Denver Nuggets can be. I like forward to watching that game tonight. Kyle, what do you have going on the rest of your day? I'm working on a video. I won't say what it is, but. Secret.

I've already said it's not. I've said it on other pods. Anyway. So anyway, yeah. But another, I wanted to tag on there too. Another game that I'm excited about is Hawk's sons. That's going to be a fun one.

A lot of young players in that one. If you want to flip back and forth between those, if you don't, if you're not blacked out like you typically are with these games. So enjoy those. NBA Ringer U crowd. A lot of good young talent out there to watch tonight. I got a disappointment coming right up,

about to leave after we get off this pod. And then I'm going to get some work. worked on and then. Dentist. Dennis, yes. Okay. Got to go to the dentist. I got my six month. And then later on, watch the basketball, play some war zone.

I'm looking forward to doing that cow. Yes. Absolutely. Oh, I'm hooping later. That's another thing. I'm going to play basketball later. Everyone's vaccinated. I know everybody's tired of hearing that, but I'm going to play.

Very excited. My Puma Clyde pros are supposed to come today. I'm going to break those in. It's going to be a great day if I can get my rusty body out there to play. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for producing today's episode of Ring NBA University and thank you for listening to the show. Please do us a favor and give us a five-star rating and a review if you're listening on iTunes and be sure to follow the Ringer NBA show if you're listening on Spotify.

Thank you again. We'll be back in two weeks. Have a fun rest of your day. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.