The Ringer NBA Show - LeBron and Steph’s Historic Rivalry and The Explosion of Individual Scoring in the Modern NBA | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

Logan and Raja discuss the Lakers-Warriors double overtime thriller, LeBron and Steph’s continued greatness, and why their rivalry is so special (02:00). Next, the guys talk about the explosion of individual scoring in the modern NBA and what it says about how offenses have developed over the years (31:30). Finally, the guys close with Mailbag Monday (48:00). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping?

No, Howard today. We'll see him next week. We're a one slogan, Murdoch here, Rogerville there, who is now looking at the Riverside camera and seeing if he's popping and seeing if he's a bad bitch. I'm not sure if he thinks, I don't know what's going on. Your skin's popping. It's fine. Hey, man.

You're okay. I mean, I woke up one morning and it had bags under my eyes. I don't know where the, I don't know. Like, it literally had. I woke up one morning and looked in the mirror and said, bro, you guys are some real bags under your eyes? When did those show up? they don't go away.

You had the little tape underneath your eyes back in the day. Did you, did you, were you, were you one of those guys? No, I'm doing like genealogy. I'm trying to find out who in my family is predisposed. Like, where did these, where the hell did these things come from? And why can't I get rid of him? I think after the weekend itinerary that you told the, the whole pod before the, the pre-pod meeting, I think I know why you have bags underneath the grass.

I ask a simple question, if Rajan watched the game and he went on a whole diet tribe about how he went all over Florida with all these motherfucking kids. And somehow he hit Tallahassee, Orlando, Coral Gables, Miami Beach, Fort Lauderdale all in one day. I don't know how you did that. I don't know if that's even humanly possible, but you pulled it off. The tally part, you made that up. But the rest of it was, yep, the rest of it we did. Got it done too.

Wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if we didn't have that going on. So. For sure. So while you were driving, I was at Chase Center watching one of the best games I've ever seen in my life. Lakers Warriors, Bronze Steff, one of the last games we might, one of the last duels potentially between these two, right? Now, who knows what the future holds? But it was one of the great ones. It was, I don't know, it was like, you know, there's one of those games, like there's probably like three or four regular season games a year that kind of defined that.

season, you know, I think about before this, it was Yolkins versus Embed a couple weeks back. Just kind of the games, it usually comes around this time of the season, the games that kind of just tailored to the zeitgeist of the league. And this is one of them. It was, we kind of knew there was a, like, anytime Steph plays versus LeBron, there's always a buzz in the building, right? There's always, there's always just an excitement, a condition. controlled excitement pregame and this was no different. And they both delivered. There was no defense played.

But from the fourth quarter on, I think the Warriors went out to a big lead. The Lakers stormed all the way back. And from the midway through the fourth onto the last, it went in a double over time. There was just haymakers being thrown left and right. You guys could see it from the highlights, but it was pretty exhilarating to watch. And ultimately, LeBron ended up winning. winning, but I know you've played a lot of games. A lot of like defining games.

First, I'll start with this, Roger, and then we'll get into the game itself. But what does it like to play in one of those games that I just described? They kind of define the season where I like to call it where you're in the center of the NBA universe type games. What does it like to play in those types of games when you know everyone is watching, when you know you were kind of at the center of the sports world? I mean, that's what we all live for. I mean, if you're a competitor, if you're a showman,

if you like the big moments, I've referenced this before. Some guys like playoffs. Some people don't really love playoffs. But if you're one of the guys who does, those are the moments outside of championship and obviously game sevens and stuff like that, those are the moments that you play for.

You know all eyes are locked in on what you have going on. you're a little bit more anxious during the day, not in a nervous way, but in a, hey, I can't wait for tonight. This might be harder to get your nap. You know, harder to stay focused on anything else that you have going on that day. Trying to give you a real sense of what that looks like. Warm up, I would have to be very careful not to get too excited in my pre-warmup. Like, you know, when we get to the arena, if you're on that second bus, you're going to go in,

get a little bit of treatment or get warm, get tape, you can go out and shoot the ball a little bit with whoever your player development guy is. You know, I have to be real careful and real measured so that you're not like already, you know, getting your adrenaline flowing in a way that is coursing through your veins because you can only sustain that for so long. And I know this sounds cheesy and I don't know if people actually want to hear this, but this is what's actually happening. You know, you've only got a sustained amount of that adrenaline for, I don't know

what the window is. but if you started cooking at 4.30 and you're stroking jump shots and you're already in your yeah, MF or type of mode, right? Which is a thing. Like that's where you want to get to eventually tonight. You want to get in your yeah, MF, that's and you, you know, you're in that bag. The Angela Russell bag from Saturday night. Right. The step bag. But if you're in that bag at 430, it's a very slim chance you're in that bag again at 815. So you've got to really measure your warm up, kind of stay locked in. but stay even keeled and calm.

And then really you're trying to time it up. So like when that bad boy, when that anthem goes off, if you're a starter, right? Because that's the other thing. If you're coming off the bench, again, you're looking for that maybe 15 minutes from now. But if you're a starter, you want all things, you know, all systems go right after that anthem is over.

It's funny because it was like in this game, it was obviously you knew what the bill was, right? like where Steph versus LeBron is probably going to go down in history is like one of the greatest rivalries of all time right and you know that and because the reason because of that is because both of those guys want to beat each other the combination of both of those guys want to beat each other so bad and just how great they are from a supporting cast aspect right how do you support that because you know that those guys have a singular focus because it was funny because LeBron was listed as questionable before the game, and so was AD.

And I don't think there was any question that they were going to play or not. Like, they were going to, like, LeBron was going to suit up for this game. There was no, there was no if fans or buts about it. And you know that a guy like LeBron wants this. And you know that Steph wants it to the point that when he lost, he ripped his jersey. Like, he ripped the middle of his jersey because it was so fucking pissed. With that type of competitiveness, as a member of the supporting cast, role player, how do you support that urge to win for the guy that is on the top of the bill?

Well, I don't, I don't, I never looked at it like that. I never looked at it like I have to support Steve or Alan Iverson or whoever else I was playing with. Not, not because I didn't understand who I was in terms of a teammate and hierarchy on the team. I always understood that, but you couldn't look at it through that lens. Like, I looked at it like, I looked at it like. you know, this was my matchup against whoever it was we were playing against, you know, and in that space, I wanted to win the matchup. So, you know, that's the way I approached it. Now, I, circumstances will probably work out where I'm not going to get as many touches and it's ultimately going to be star versus star. But if I approach it like it's my matchup and I'm

out there to try to win the game, then I feel like I give myself the best chance to just be like ultra-focused and razor-sharp. And so that's why I would approach. And in a lot of those games, we've had this conversation before as it relates to playoffs. In those biggest moments, stars have to be stars,

but someone else has to come along with them. Someone else has to come along with them. Now, there might be three, you know, suspects per team that could fit that bill. But if one team gets one out of the three to do it and the other team doesn't, that team's going to win.

If that other team gets two out of three and the first team only got the one out of three, then that team's going to win. And so keeping yourself as a role player in that space of like this, we're not going to sit back and spectate. I mean, I had those years,

don't get me wrong. I mean, I played for the Sixers and we were going to Toronto before I had ever gotten in a playoff game. It's always Toronto, man. It's always Toronto. It's always Toronto. Yeah, I don't know if you remember the series

with AI and Vince Carter that year. Yeah, they were just fucking throwing haymakers And then I think wasn't that the year that Vince Carter had to go graduate and then come back for game seven. And he missed the shot. But anyway, the point was I wasn't going to play. So in those games, I am spectating. And, you know, like that's different. But when playing and when expecting to play, the only place you can be as a supporting cast member is, yo.

Like, I'm not a supporting cast member. I'm the show tonight, understanding fully that you're not the show. But that's what it's got to be so that you can be the best version of. of whatever it is your team needs you to be on that night. It was like that during, what was your first, like, it was Milwaukee your first in that series, in that, in that playoff run? Was it Milwaukee your first time getting in when you were like thrusted in?

Was it like, oh, shit? Or was it like, I'm calm and ready for this versus like the finals where, I don't know how you were during the finals, but I know like your first big moment was Milwaukee? Yeah, I don't. So Larry Brown had started coming to me in the Toronto series, asking me if I could guard Vince Carter. And I mean, I knew it was getting kicked around

because he wasn't the only person that would come to me and ask me. Like, I would have John Custer come over and ask me. Dave Hanners would come and ask me. I'd have like other assistants at other times. I'm like, so this is getting kicked around somewhere. But they just never pulled the trigger on it. So I was like, okay, that's fine.

Like, I'm not really tripping off of it. And quite frankly, I probably wasn't ready in that series. I just didn't know what playoff basketball was really like, it took me digesting that series and the swings in momentum and the swings, you know, not just in momentum during the game, but from game to game, depending on who won that game, it took me like really digesting that to kind of understand what was going on. And then in the Milwaukee series, it timed up perfectly. He hadn't played me in games one through five.

And if he did, it was like five seconds to go in the game just so someone didn't have to play the last five seconds, like that type of shit. But we were losing in Milwaukee by like 30, 25, something like that. You could look it up in game six. And Larry Brown was pissed and he cleared his bench. And that's how's money. Like, I get to go in there. We're not supposed to win.

I don't know where the fuck I'm at. I'm so young and dumb. I just came out of the CBA and the USBL. Like, I don't, whatever. Let's just run around. And we ran around and got back in the game. And so to the point where Larry Brown brought the start back in because he thought he was close enough for them to maybe close it.

But the lead expanded again real quick so we didn't get that done. I didn't know I was going in game seven. That was a that was a rogue call. I mean, that had never happened before. It hadn't happened in game six. This was this was I mean, maybe the first quarter, maybe early second quarter. I had no fucking idea. So it worked out for me in that I had no time to be scared or understand what was happening.

All I, all I could do was go out there off of pure adrenaline and, And whatever I had done in my basketball career before that, it was just natural and organic. I didn't have time to be scared. If I had known I was going in at that point in my career, I might have overthought that. You know, I'll get back to the game. One of the things that, you know, when you're in a game like the one on Saturday, there's different types of, obviously, agendas at play, different types of goals at stake. one of the secondary pieces of that of that game that was really fascinating was the continued performance of de angelo russell who was kind of played his way off the trade block for the lakers right and i think that that game was no different man like he was one of those guys that was like this is de angelo russell in nutshell like could be you know great in times and wildly inconsistent in other times but when he's great he can like trick you into be being like the number two guy on the floor and he was that on Saturday night.

How do you when, what are the two ways? Because we're going towards the trade deadline. What are the ways that a player can play his way off the roster and back on the roster and the way that DeAngelo Russell seemingly has done? Because I think that he did a great job over the last couple. He's averaging like 27 a game. Something like that over the last few weeks. what is when you know you might be getting traded or you know that you might be on the trade blob,

what are the two things that that does to a player or could do to a player? What's two ways could they go? I mean, there are only two ways to go. You could, you could either, you could either be terrified and get really tight and, and, and, you know, kind of fall apart or you could, you could, just play ball because ultimately you're not going to control it anyway. So just go out there and hoop, there's a level of freedom that comes along with that where, hey, man, I don't really control what's going to happen here. It's out of my hands. Let me just go out there and play ball. And the crazy part is, you know, if you play well enough, not only are you like proven to your team, like, hey, maybe I should stay here, but you're also becoming more and more attractive

in a trade scenario. So it's really crazy how that works. But DeAngelo Russell, bigger picture falls into a type of player that I think about that is just really, really, really caught in between. It's like a true tweener, not in terms of positionally, but in terms

of levels of a player. He's a tweener in terms of level of player, right? Because he's not a number two. He's not a number two on a championship level team. But man, he way more.

more often than not, looks like he's better than a three. Right? So, like, to your point, he'll have you trick. And I mean this affectionately because he's so, he's so good and he's so talented. And he's not, he's, he's not afraid of those moments in any way, shape, or form. See, a lot of number, a lot of number threes, they come up short in those moments a lot. So they reveal to you that they're not a two or a one. But he produces in those moments so frequently over his career.

He had like in the final minute, I think it was either the fourth, it was like the first overtime or something like that. I can't remember the timing, but I think Pods missed a three. And it was like 50 seconds left early in the shot clock. I think the Warriors were up like four or something. Or I don't remember, but he just pulls up with 19 seconds on the shot clock. Bang. LeBron is right behind him.

And then one thing I think is good about LeBron is if he sees a hot hand, he's going to let him go. He's not one of those superstars. It's going to be like, yo, give me the fucking ball at all. times. Right. But he shot, De Angel's shot it right in front of both the Warriors,

bitch, and LeBron. Zero hesitation. Yeah. He had like four or five of those, of those types of shots on Saturday night. Yeah, not afraid at all.

Not afraid at all. And look, quite frankly, I've come on here and said that I think they need to make moves to, to better themselves. And I stand by that. I'm not saying,

that's not pointed directly at DeAngelo Russell, necessarily, right? Like, he doesn't he doesn't necessarily have to be the one to go. It could be someone else. I think the Lakers, if you made him choose

between him and Austin Reeves, it would probably be him, right? Whether I agree with that or not is besides the point. But I still think you need to be better, but he is a really, really interesting player because I think he's a tweener.

To your point, can have great moments and be great for stretches. But I don't think he's a number two. I mean, look, you have Anthony Davis and the Brown James. So by the nature,

of the way they're constructed, he's at best the number three. Right? But still phenomenal. And I talk about guys like say Dionne Waiters, for example, and people would ask me about him from my cast times. And what I would say, and I don't know if this is fair, because so good, so talented, so good with the ball in his hands,

that I don't want to marginalize that at all, but I would say they're just a little too good for their own good. Because because. Or they think they're better than they are. Well, I guess both things can be true. Yeah, they're both things to be true, right? In some cases, it's that. And in some cases, the people looking at it and evaluating it think it should be something

that it just isn't consistent enough to be all the time. Right. Right. Because it was funny. Another thing, these teams are so evenly matched. And they're both like in the bottom of the Western Conference. Right? And that breeds well for a January Saturday night game.

but I don't, I kept asking myself throughout the game, like, what could this type of game or what, what, which team will bear out better after this game? And I still think it's, I think it's the Lakers because I think that they're just a better team even after this. But seeing what you've seen after this, like, who is going to bear out well? Let's go on the prediction business. I know we love to do that for no reason. Like, who do you think will fare better as this as this season goes on? Like the Lakers. Yeah.

Yeah, the Lakers will. I mean, there's just more, they're more overall pieces. Like, I mean, I can say in one breath that I think to win a championship, they still need more. And then the next breath tell you, I still think they're in better shape than Golden State from an overall piece perspective. You know, LeBron, AD, you still have two stars that can really, get it done.

I don't think you can say that for Golden State. I mean, Steph's amazing. But, you know, that's a lot of heavy lifting out there, man. That's a lot of heavy lifting. And so I'm, you know, I'm taking the Lakers. I'm going to throw these numbers at you. And you tell me, as someone who was 47 years old, just two years older than LeBron. What?

That's crazy. 36 points. Yeah. 20 rebounds. 12 assists. 48 minutes. Year 21. What does that say about that man?

That's not human. Because you call him a man. I don't, that's not a man. That's not flesh and blood, man. I've, I've And Drago looked over at his corner and Russian said he's a machine. Like, yeah, dog,

That's not humanly, like, it's not supposed to be humanly possible. God bless, man. Look, I go into gym right now, right after we're done with this pod and get a little cardio lift and do some little dead lifts or something like that. I won't walk for two weeks, bro. Just off a stiff back and sore hamstrings. I could not even imagine. So, you know, it's remarkable.

I think we do this with all of our, like, greats. it's just who we are as a culture. Like we nitpick it and if it doesn't win championships, there's got to be reasons why. And we get into the goat debate and try to diminish what they've done because they might not be the singular, like, the singular entity and the sport that everyone can point to and say definitively is the greatest.

Like, we do that all the time. But what we should do is just appreciate what we're watching. Just appreciate the greatness that is LeBron. Because when it's gone, you're not going to see that again. I'm not going to say here and say you might not see something like, you know, that happens all time. You didn't think you see Mike again, you saw Kobe.

Like it was kind of like that. But you're not going to see LeBron again. So if you're at that game, Logan, like you said you were at that game, man, man, when anytime you go to arena and you get to see that man performing, I really did try to sit in a Cleveland front office or at a game and just take it in. Like, you know, I had only played against him. I had never played with him. So I got to see him every day.

I got to see him working the way. room. You know, I got to see what he did, you know, behind closed doors. And, you know, I tried to soak it up because you ain't seeing that shit again. It's just incredible. Like, I mean, you've seen him time and time again in arenas. And it's just as he gets older and I told you this, probably years ago. Like, there's like a list of the players that when I'm there in the city, like, I got to see them. You know, probably like, it's like, it's Braun, KD. Janice, Luca, was job for a second, but he got to get back online. And I guess Steph, but I see him all the time. But like, I think those are the ones that those are the ones that you have to see in your city. But LeBron right now, man, another thing that I kept thinking about, especially with him with the Lakers, right? Because we've never seen this before, because he's in year 21, it's so hard to judge what his teams can be.

Because on one hand, like, he gives you the 36, 20, and 12. In 48 minutes at 39 years old. And you're like, can he lead a team to a title? Does he have the legs to be able to do it? And then you see this type of shit in January. And then you kind of trick yourself into doing that into like saying, yes, he can do it. But you don't know as the years keep going on. Like, how do you build a team around this?

how do you, you just got to roll a dice and see what happens? Like, I just don't know how to, like, even judge a team with LeBron James because he does shit like this. Yep. Once a quarter. Well, how you judge it and how you build it, I mean, you know, you're building, you're building it. It's a championship.

It's a championship team. I have said, I've long said, I think that the recipe of pieces around LeBron has to have changed from Miami-Lebron, Cleveland, LeBron to L.A. LeBron. You could have been, like, LeBron D. Wade and the other portion of your team was based 95% on spot shooters. I don't think the other part of your team now is 95% spot shooters. I think, you know what I mean? Three and D guys. I think that recipe has changed just because he doesn't, from night to night, get his

shoulders by a defender in the way that he did that collapses the defense, right? Shoots more threes, does more things that don't necessarily put that type of pressure on the rim and doesn't collapse you. So I think you need more creators around him. But you're always building it to win because LeBron gives you a chance to win. The question is, the question isn't whether LeBron can win a game. The question isn't whether you say, hey, LeBron, we have a game on Wednesday. We have a game on Wednesday.

Have to win that. It is live or die, win it. I'm never betting against him. Like, yes. but the question is when you have to start going, you know, to and from said place, you're on planes, you're playing seven games,

and they're coming at you every other night. The question is whether he can summon that, like enough in that scenario. And so for the Lakers, they would have to hope that, and I think we've seen that, like we've seen, like he'll be good in series,

but it's unrealistic. I think LeBron would even tell you, like, 39 years old in year 21, it's amongst a lot of unrealistic shit that he does pull off. It's kind of unrealistic to think that he is going to have fresh, explosive, dynamic legs every night in said series. Like, that's not realistic. So what you're hoping for if you're the Lakers is that you time up LeBron's best games with Anthony Davis's best games on every other night.

So, you know, when LeBron is doing it, AD, save them. And vice versa. So that you're hitting on any other night. And that you can't predict and you can't time it up. Circumstances, you know, are what they are. Shit plays out the way it does. And so, you know, that's the scary part about the Lakers. Because AD's like that too.

We watched it last year. Like, he's good every other night. So if they're not like, if they're not like double dutching with that shit and you don't have a number three that can really cook and carry, then you wind up in some sticky situations. I do wonder though, man, you're Steph Curry, you're looking at that shit and you're like, he was so mad after the game.

It's just, you look at that and you're like, yo, what the fuck I want to get to? I need to get some other guy. Give me out of here. Give me out of here. He ain't doing that. I know. I know.

I know. You know what I'm saying. I mean, listen, I know. He would never do that. But give me, give me help.

I should, I like, let me, I should not have said that. But like, but like, but somewhere, what I meant to say was,

give me, to your point, give me some fucking help. Like, I can't. I'm still, I'm still too like good. Get me some help.

We talked about LeBron. In that game. Can I, may I, may I, may I, may I, say Steph's, fucking stats. 46.

46, 43 minutes, 9, 3, 7 assists, three boards. Get me some. That was, what the fuck, dude? Like, come on. I just, I don't know what I told you, man. Get me some help, bro. Oh, man. Speaking of help, that Steph and the league and beyond needs,

we're going to hear Steve Curtis comments on the next, on the other end of the break. Fan duels put in the ball in your court for the rest of the NBA season. Because right now, new customers get $200 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $200 if your bet wins. Let's check out the games tonight. Nick's Hornets, that's a tough one. I think I'm going to take the over.

Clippers calves? Hmm. Got to go with my gut. I'm going to take the over on that. Pelican Celtics? Gee, I don't know. Yeah, I know. I'm going to take the over.

Jazz Nets, over. Sun's Heat over, Lakers Rockets over, Kings Grizzlies over. Am I going to switch it up with Timberwills Thunder? No, I'm going to take the over. So visit Fanduil.com slash Ringer MBA and make your first bet a layup. Fandual, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states. Gambling problem called 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com backslash-r-r-g.

$10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-gulnerable bonus bets that expire seven days. after receipt. See terms at forcebook. Fandul.com. And we are back. Before we get to the next segment,

I just want to give a shout out to the homie at Chase Center who came up to me. Not once, Roger, but twice, talking about real ones, real ones. Big fan. A word.

Yeah. Where was this? This was at Chase Center near the media session. Burbra caught glimpses of me and just, you know, shout out the pot. I just want to say shout out to all the real ones out there.

Respect. We're showing us love in random-ass places. You know? The real ones run deep, Roger, as you know. They run deep. Yeah, that's much appreciated, man. There are a few things to give my soul a little smile. Like, that always does.

No matter when it's said, no matter when you talk about it or I talk about, always makes me give me a little bit of soul smile. Because I'm like, yo, we wake up. We fucking take the fucking sleep out of our eyes and we just talk hoop, bro. And like, I don't know who to fuck we listen to. the shit and they just and they always come and show love all the fucking time it's crazy it's why it's like it's a podcast how do you even know what i look like fuck yeah i would just say this um i would say this like if you if you if you listen and you don't always hear exactly what you want to hear like

and sometimes you know we fuck up everybody fucks up but you're getting like you're getting genuine you're getting genuine feelings and real, like, real talk about the NBA, right? You know what I mean? Like, that's what you're getting, man. And if you rock with it, then you rock with us. And if you don't, that's cool too, man. There are other pods out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

On God. Anywho, let's talk about some stuff. Scoring has gotten out of control, Roger. It's gotten out of control. It's crazy. in the NBA. You've seen some iconic lines, scoring lines. Luca, 73, 73 points, 10 assists in seven boards.

I got that, might have got that wrong. But the line I saw was 73, 10 at 7, like, Jesus. Then you see Cat with 62. Then, you know, debunk and a loss. Debook with 66. Right, like all in the same night. Then last year we saw Dame goes for 70, right? So Joel just had a 70 burger.

Yeah, dog. Like, I try to crunch the numbers. It's ridiculous. I try to do it. I'm going to spare everybody because I probably had it wrong with the numbers that I calculated because I was not good at math. But it's a lot of scoring that's happening and this unprecedented. I asked Steve Carr before the game afterwards, before the game on Saturday. Just like what he makes of this, this historic scoring binges and what it says about the modern game.

Well, I mean, guys are so skilled today. There's so much space on the floor. You know, everybody's playing multiple bigs who can shoot threes. And so there's just too much ground to cover for the defense. Pace is up, you know, over the last few years, everybody's playing faster and with more pace. And teams have gotten really confident in their offensive schemes, you know, with all that spacing and pace. And, you know, so the last few years, offensive ratings have just been climbing and climbing. And then the final piece of it for me is just, you know,

the way we officiate the game favors the offense in a way that it didn't, you know, 15 years ago. The rules have been altered to really, you know, give the benefit of the doubt to the offensive player. So I think we're actually in. entering a phase now where we're going to have to look at, just like the league did 20 years ago, kind of look at the rules, see where the game's going, and maybe make some adjustments back in the other direction. If you were in the room, Roger, you would have shook that man's hand after he said this.

No, I think there are absolutely changes. You're not going to make changes to the scheme. that where you're going to make changes is with the defensive positioning rules that are in place right now. If I could tell you the number of times where a player wildly drove into us and ran into us, and I went to the ref, and the ref used the expression, illegal guarding position. So what's happened is the way we are interpreting the rules is favoring the offense. similar to how, I guess, 0405 season, I'm curious to get your take,

where hand shacking was just outlawed, and you were having to adjust both of those. And I think Steve was talking about how we just need to just give, give the defender more power in this whole situation, in this dynamic, because it's gotten too far. I think we've talked about this on the podcast. It's gone too far the other way in terms of offense, right?

Like, it's cool to see 70 burgers, but, like, I was looking at the, just the sheer, the list of individual scoring highs in NBA history. And most of them were from like the last five or ten years. Like when you saw what made Kobe's 81 so special is that you hadn't seen that in 40 years, right? And it was harder to get those things done. And I even looked at like it seemed like even the last person to score 60 was like, you know,

two or three years before that or 10 years before that. when you see the individual scoring efforts right now, what does it tell you about the modern game? And how do you feel about these types of scoring binges? Yeah, I mean, I guess I can, I mean, I am an old curmudgeon at times. Don't get me wrong. But like the scoring. The scoring, I mean, it's cool.

Like, it's, it's, it's, I'm not hating on it. I'm not saying that I love to watch the game like that. But I can certainly appreciate the skill level. that it would take to do that. I mean, it's an incredible, those are incredible performances of, of individual skill.

And I can appreciate that as someone who spent his entire life trying to perfect certain crafts. Like, I can, I can truly appreciate the art in that, the time, the sacrifice it would take to sharpen in your tools to the point where you could pull that off.

I could, I could agree with Steve Kerr in that, I mean, I, there have been some, changes, you know, over the last couple decades that have helped with scorn and stuff like that. You know, I don't know. I'm trying to work my way through this on the fly. I think, you know, there are a lack of dudes today that would just fuck you up in the midst of that. That's a thing.

You know, dude, like, not saying that people don't have pride in defending, but, you know, that's one of those things where like, well, I got scored on a lot. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, man, I'm going to try to do whatever I can to send a message. Hey, man, this shit ain't about the year. You're not just going to try to make a mockery out of this. There ain't no more Tony Allen's in the building. There's not more.

That doesn't always work. But just big picture, I think there's not too many, like they're not a ton of those dudes anymore. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, he is correct in pace. and multiple bigs out there shooting and all of that. And the lane is open in a way that it wasn't always when you had guys who couldn't shoot out there. Also, the spacing is so different now.

Like you guys were just, you guys lived in the fucking paint, bro. Well, because you always had a big on the floor that couldn't shoot, like your true center, there was always going to be a defender anchored to him down there, which just put a body around the rim that made it prohibitive at times to get in there and score over and over and over. again. Like, you'd still score, dudes would score it in there, but you wouldn't go score it to the

tune of 70 in there because, you know, there's, you know, naturally a defender in there because you have an offensive player in there. So, yeah, spacing, all of that goes into it. I would, I would just say what I, what I, because I deal with basketball at a youth level, um, I don't like the, I don't like the trickle down effect that the scoring has. I, I don't, I don't like the trickle down effect that it has because I think generationally we have forgotten about what basketball is ultimately about as a competitive sport and that's winning and that's figuring out a way to win a game and within a team that is trying to accomplish that goal there are different people that have to do different things to be able to accomplish that and I far too often go into gyms now

at the high school level, youth level, youth, I forgive sometimes because depending on on where you are and what skill level and stuff like that,

like you're early in your journey, but I go into high level high school games and there'll be five kids on a court who all think their job is to try score 77. And that's, it's unrealistic.

And way too many of our young coaches in today's world of, look, the kids are trained now from the time they are four or five years old, micro skills, skills, how to create your own shot.

I mean, these are phenomenal skill sets that you see on 9, 10, 11 year olds now. Shit that I would have never even dreamed of being able to do with a basketball. But the same kid, if you don't let him just get into his micro skill bag and score 30, has no idea how he can affect the game. Puts all of his worth and value as a player in whether or not he can score the ball. Not understanding, I have this conversation all the time with my son, Ty. bro, if you put your worth and your value in scoring, you are always going to be disappointed.

Like, you're going to be disappointed. There's so much more that you represent as a basketball player. And if you will embrace that and you will, and you will, you know, live that, then you're going to be valuable to teams, regardless of whether you're scoring or not, at least good teams and good coaches. But far too often the trickle down from the scoring, and it's no one's fault. Like, it's great.

But what happens is you wind up with a generation. to kids that really don't see value in anything else because we celebrate scoring. It's what the NBA celebrates. It's what I see when I turn on ESPN. It's what I see, you know, when I turn on my phone and on these viral clips of people, it's all scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, scoring, shooting a three. And walk in a gym and see what it does.

You used to go into an LA fitness. I'm ranting now. I'm sorry. I used to go into University of Miami gym. I shit you not. I used to go into University of Miami gym when I was a burgeoning NBA player, like when I was just trying out for teams and shit. like that. And because we lived in a day and an age where like it wasn't maybe as in vogue to score

ball and everyone didn't have this skill set with the ball in their hands because that's not what they grew up watching, you could go in and pick up a random five and rolls would kind of define themselves within the first three points of a game. Like there might be some stepping on toes early in the game. But before too long, people were like, oh, give him the ball. Like, I'm going to rebound and defend. He'll get me open shots. Like, you know, oh, you like to run pick and roll. come out here for me, run pick and roll. And I'm only using that as an example because I'm clearly the best player

in the gym at that point, right? I don't have to say this to you. Everyone understands. No, but no, I'm in a wreck gym. So like what I'm saying is like, everyone understands, boom, dynamics, team dynamics start to sort themselves out. We're defending, we're talking, we're communicating. You go in a gym now and everybody thinks

that they are fucking Luca Donchic. Everybody thinks that they're Trey Young. All five people. It's quiet as fuck on defense, huh? It's probably quiet as fuck on defense. There's no role definition. no one wants to do any of the dirty work. They don't even care whether they win the game to stay on the court or not.

They just want to get their couple threes off. And I think, like, big picture for me, that's what makes me sad. I'm not angry about it, but it makes me sad because I'm watching it unfold in real time, a generation, and we're into a new generation now with my younger son. Like, they don't fucking, they don't care about winning in a lot of instances. They just care about scoring the ball. Kerm says in the chat. Not me.

I'm Pat Bav when I get in the gym. Have you seen, real quick, before I get on this thing, have you seen Kerm? I got to send you the clip. Have you seen Kerm? Highlights in the L.A. Fitness that you described? I have not. I would lie. That would make me happy.

Kerm Rondo lives. This motherfucker is doing pick and roll. He's giving the fist. He's telling people to get the fuck back on defense. Floor General? Floor General Kerm is out here in these streets. But. If you go pregame now, the biggest critique that I get from assistant coaches is that,

fuck, we have to develop these guys this late in the game, right? Like, there's so much more raw prospects now. Even the guys that have been in, you know, has done college for a couple of years, right? Because of this funneling system that you talk about and the prioritization of scoring. So what happens is you have these ultra-touching. talented raw players who now have to get the G-League, the G-League stint that doesn't really make sense in people's eyes, right? But they have to learn the intricacies of the game in order to play championship level basketball, right? Like, even still, when we're ranting about this, the most talented team in the league and the most skilled team in the league is still a team like the Denver Nuggets who you have to, every player is multi-skilled.

on both ends of the floor, right? Like, that runs an offense like that around a generational talent. But guys that are really high IQ guys, right? That's what ends up winning championships. But even still, you're bringing guys in the league now who it's tough, right? Like, it's tough to mold those guys. You see that even in stars, right? Are people that they want to be stars like a Jalen Green, right?

Who, on paper, should be this guy that is a great score that can figure. but the nuances of his game has people scratching their heads because it seems like he's only in it for, you know, the scoreification of the game and not happy about the other things. I'm curious to see, and it's not like we haven't had this type of stuff before. Like even I'm sure in your generation, Raja, there were guys that were caring about the wrong shit. It just seems like the volume of guys has gotten bigger and the pool has gotten bigger. And I think we do need to rectify that specifically with the fact that we have all of these resources now than we've ever had four younger guys. Yeah, look, I would agree. And now some of it, look, to be fair, because we play, I could exist as a guy who didn't have a quote unquote bag of offensive, create my own shot type of skill.

because there was way more action being run when I played in the NBA because of the personnel that was on the floor and the style of play. Way, way, I'm not going to say way too often, but very often now, there's nothing being run other than a pick and roll. And then the ball starts getting sprayed around. And if you get it, you're expected to kind of create. And so because of that, you have to develop all these guys in that mold where they have to be able to create for themselves way more often than I would have had to create for myself,

let's say, because you're not running nearly as much action to produce a shot, right? Like the floor is way more spread out. And so it's kind of, you know, what came first, the chicken or the egg type of conversation. And now you do live in an, and if that's what you're preaching and that's what you're working on and that's what all your development is about, what do you think people are going to put stock in the most? Like, if a kid is raised by a trainer from the time he's six years old to dribble the shit out of a basketball and shoot it from half court,

what the fuck do you think he's going to put stock in when he's 15 years old? But my question is, though, Raja, is, like, yeah, they see the highlights and stuff, but do they watch the NBA finals? Because those guys that you describe as the guys that are all, like, that are the ones that hold onto the ball

that shoot it with fucking three seconds, on the side clock or pass it out with three seconds on the side clock the ball dominant guys that you describe are not in the finals like as great as lucid dants just is he is not in the finals yeah but i hardin is in the finals now some kids can sift through that some kids can't some kids aren't watching the games as much as they're just watching the clips on their phone you know some some kids don't have great coaches in their life that explain that to them some kids just have mom and dad who've never done anything athletically other than kind of wish that they had in their ear about what they think is important because they are getting the message from the media that the

scoring is important. So everything and every resource we have for little Johnny and everything goes into him and that trainer and our message is that trainer is making him a killer, making a killer, making a killer. And that trainer takes that and if he's, you know, he could be great at his job. But if he's not, if he's not talking to Johnny about what killers really do, like Johnny could think a killer is just somebody who gets the ball and scores the shit out of it. But to your point, like, it's way more nuanced than that. Like the Carl Towns thing, right? Like, with Carl Towns score, there's a reason why they lost.

Like, yeah. You're not all about scoring. Right. Right. So anyway, I mean, that's a heavy look. That's a hot topic a little bit for me. I don't hate on it at all. There are reasons for it.

But I do, look, again, it's personal for me, real ones. Again, you come to these pods. You're going to get this. Like, because I have young sons. that are in these gyms and they're trying to sort their way through it. I see all of these kids from across the country when I'm in gyms. And I'm like this is happening. I'm watching it happen.

I'm talking to the coaches. I see it. I talk to the parents on other teams. They're corroborating what I see. That kid does that all the time. They're like, yeah, man, fucking A. Man, can you believe that? I'm like, yep, check.

Got it. It's not just me. I didn't just catch him on a bad day. That's what he does. like so I this is happening yeah all right it is motherfucking Monday there's no back today

I probably should have said that at the beginning but whatever we're here he but we do have motherfucking mailbags um Kerm please come out of the cut um

you say you have questions for us first of all you doing man you're all right been running fitness you're good you've been you've been running uh running plays I'm trying man I've been hooping a little bit, you know.

What's your nickname on the, on LA Fitness, on the LA Fitness courts? First of all, I hope it's the Glendale YMCAA. Pull up. Hey, pull up and you in Glendale, bro. Pull up on girl. You and Glendell pull up at 7 p.m. Monday, Tuesdays, pull up. Yes, sir. Oh, shit.

Move up your own spot. It's about to be popping there now. No nicknames, but when I hit a no look, I definitely call myself magic. And, like, they've started to embrace it a little bit because, Some of the passes, they're not bad. They're not bad. That's all I'm saying. Couldn't make the league, but the passes aren't bad.

Let's do this mailbag. Let's do it. First questions from Connor Bingham. What's Poppin, Rowan? I love Roger's opinion on this question, which is, do you think that the NBA has lost the valuable role player with so many players coming into the league, expecting star treatment production? It's like they knew what we were talking about already. This is crazy.

Are we losing those players that specifically play a role that help teams win championships? Connor Bingham, the answer to that is yes to a degree. I don't think they're all the way gone. It's not an extinct thing, but it is on the endangered species list. I mean, and the reason why is because, number one, it's not a celebrated thing. Like, there's no real glory in that. far too often, they're not paid in a way that would celebrate a good teams will, though, teams that are really close to a championship.

But I would just tell my story, I was always a role guy. And everybody always told me, man, if you defend, you know, and you'll just shoot the ball, you know, it'll work out. And I always got the minimum, or barely the minimum, until I went to Utah and they were like, hey, we'll give you a chance to score like 12 to 15 a game. And only after that did someone want to pay me more than the minimum. So while I can sit on here and tell you how valuable role guys are and they are, I mean, the NBA sometimes if you, there's a threshold of what you have to do offensively for a team

that has to be met before they're going to pay you like that. And so trying to get that right on the head is not the answer. So if you shoot higher than that and you're like, yo, man, I'm just going to be, I'm going to shoot for scoring. and that's a lot of dudes' mentalities. This is the world we wind up in. And so, yeah, I do think. But the good teams have them. And what happens, I think, sorry,

Logan, because I know you want to get in, is I think with maturity, we all come into the league thinking that we're going to score it and we're going to take the league by storm and stuff like that. But as you mature and as you played and you've got a little perspective on your career and what's important to you and stuff like that, I think you wind up with guys that kind of turn into that. But I do think there are less in today's NBA than there were when I played.

I think one of the things I want to, like, add to what you said is a lot of guys, like, Bruce Brown is a good example of this, right? A lot of guys just kind of find their way to being valuable role players. It's not something that most guys actually come into the league doing. Like, if you're a lottery pick, you want to be a star. Like, everybody, everybody who was drafted in the league by and large thinks, at least on some degree that they're going to be a franchise piece, right? Like the first couple of years, they're treated as such.

And then you kind of matriculate your way through the league. And then maybe things just don't go your way. And you kind of get pushed into the role of valuable role player. Or in Raj's case, like, that's probably the only role you have. Well, that was, yes, because I'm undrafted. Yeah. But another good name for that. Like Aaron Gordon is in the same vein of like a, you know, that type of player, right?

Like, early career franchise guy winds up being a great role player on champion. membership level teams. Yeah, the point is it takes time. It's not something that you're drafted into being necessarily, right? Like most times, if you're in the first round or the first 15, you're expected to be a franchise star and it kind of just like kind of evolves from that. I'd say lottery. I'd say lottery because you're later in that first round in a lot of cases that you are going to

come in and they're looking for you to play a role. Next one's from Herschel, Diane. What's Poppin, Real Ones? My name is Herschel from Tallahassee, Florida. A long-time listener of the show. Long-time Spurs fan, too. So I really enjoyed the Tim Duncan episode way back. My question is, why is Kobe often left out of the goat debates?

As sad as it sounds, now that he's past, the media, not everyone, somewhat disrespect his name and legacy by not including him or trashing him just to elevate other players. Because for real, I think he's way better than LeBron. No disrespect. Peace out. Except from my iPhone in case you're Herschel from Talley being Tallahassee with them seven nose. Go ahead, bro. You got it.

I don't think that Kobe is left out of the goat debate by any means. I think that he is thrusted into the goat debate a lot. I mean, by you, by you especially, sir. I think that I don't think that he is the goat necessarily. The numbers bear that out. I don't think that if you put him ahead to head

with other guys. This is coming from one of the biggest Kobe fans of all time who was spewing that propaganda for a long time, was in these trenches. But I think he's not seriously considered in the goat conversation because I don't think he has the credentials to be the greatest of all time.

Now he does have the credentials to be a top 10 player of all time. And that's, I think, what we have generally put him as as the years have gone by. And I think that that's, I mean, one other thing, I think that it is around the time he was retired. I think he was a little undervalued by a lot of people. And I think that as he, as the years have gone by since he is retired, I think that he, his resume has stuck with, has stuck in the top 10 of players all time. And I think it will continue to do that because his resume, it's hard to duplicate. And it doesn't necessarily mean he's better than a LeBron James or Michael Jordan.

but I think that he is in that conversation as a top 10 greatest player of all time, which is nothing to sneeze at whatsoever. Yeah, I don't think there's anything else to add to that. I mean, I don't know who's like trying to tarnish his legacy as a play or anything like that. I don't think he's the goat. I mean, I think I argue that there are two people that are the goat personally. Like, there are two people that you can give me names for. I did not witness Will, Kareem, to any real large extent, or Bill Russell, right?

So, like, for me, that's where I fall, right? I was an MJ guy and then LeBron. And I have Kobe and a tier of player just below that, which is, again, that is not too shabby. Now, could, like, just, could there have some, could there be something? Like, Kobe was, this isn't my necessarily, my necessarily, my necessary. certainly my take on this, but because he reminded you so much of MJ, is there any of that, that, that, that, Logan, is there any of that because he was, he reminded you so much of MJ, but MJ is MJ that maybe he doesn't get as big a nod, maybe?

Maybe. I don't know. I'm just still kind of just like dumbfounded by the fact that a Spurs fan would try to get more credit for Kobe Bryant. I was like, whoa, that's crazy. Respect. I just didn't know that that existed. I didn't know that existed in the world. I didn't know. Curm said he has one last question that's crazy and I'm really curious. I'm curious to see what the hell. Give me a second. I didn't even put this in the notes because I was like, this is stupid.

But since you asked, let me go to the email. We got five more minutes left. Yeah, yeah. All right. This one is from Israel Hater. Long time, first time. I see people saying LeBron won't go elsewhere to play with his son because he loves L.A. There's another team in L.A. that could draft Brony and three.

threatened for a championship. Why is there zero Bronny to the Clippers hype? Dumbass question. Are you saying that? Because you're a Laker fan? My battery just died. Yes. LeBron's not going to the fucking Clippers.

It's not happening. My battery died. All right. You just answered your own question. Rod's battery just died. We're done. We don't have to make that out of the response. That has been another addition of real ones.

Motherfucking mailbags. Howard Beck will be back next Monday. We'll see you guys on Thursday. all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older president-select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas

Star Casino LLC Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com backslash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont and Virginia. Call 1-800

next step or text next step to 533-442 in Arizona. 8887-8-8-8-9-7-77 or visit CCPG.org, backslash chat in Connecticut. 1-8009 with it in Indiana, 1-8005-224-7-00, or visit KS Gambling Help at Kansas, 18777-7-70. Stop in Louisiana. Visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Visit 1-800-Gambler.net in West Virginia or call 1-8005-2-2-4-7-00 in Wyoming. Hope is here.

Visit gambling helpline, mA.org, or call 1-800-3275050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-8-Hope-N-Y or text hope-n-Y in New York.