The Ringer NBA Show - LeBron James at 40. Plus, Ripple Effects of Another D-Lo Trade and the Mike Brown Firing With Kirk Goldsberry. | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Justin and Wos are joined by Kirk Goldsberry to discuss the D’Angelo Russell trade and what the ceiling is for the Lakers now (3:15). Then, they talk about Kirk's piece on TheRinger.com about what kind of player LeBron James is now. They also give their thoughts on the Russell trade from the Nets' perspective, and whether Brooklyn has more trades to make (27:36). They wrap up with their thoughts on the Kings firing Mike Brown and if that will change anything in Sacramento (41:36). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Wosny Lambre Guest: Kirk Goldsberry Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you know that scientific studies have found most people lie once every 10 minutes? In my new podcast, Truthless, I'm talking to people about the lies, they tell, from faking illnesses in high-pressure moments to making up stories on national TV. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Phillips. Listen to Truthless on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me. Big Waz is here. But we have yeated Rob Mahoney across the floor like Tyler Hero replaced him with Kirk Goldsbury back again. What's up, Kirk? Well, I threw him to the ground in a fit of rage. And I'm happy to replace Rob Mahoney here today. Thanks for being. They're traveling me, Justin. Was, how are you doing after a lovely holiday week?

I'm doing good, man. I'm taking break from crushing rolling rocks, and I'm just here to provide content for the people. That's all. A rolling rocks, like the official drink of Los Angeles now? Have I missed out on the latest trend? No, it's just another central Pennsylvania staple. That's all. That's right. Yeah, we were talking before the pod. So Kirk went to Penn State. You went to a different version. I never knew this about you. Yeah, it's like the closest satellite. school over there. That's kind of what they sell people on. It's like you do your two-year prison

stint and now two in Pennsylvania and then you go to State College. I did the two years and then just went back home and went to Brooklyn College. But yeah, a lot of fun nights in Toontown and a lot of time spent honestly in State College too. A lot of tailgating, a lot of, you know, Canyon pizza with the big vat of self-served ranch dressing that you get for your dollar pizza. Just a lot of core memories, man. Shows to Mangioni for reminded me in my time in Toontown. Shows to Luigi. He's showing us a lot about all of us. That's right. But we're here to celebrate the beloved Nittany Lions who were in the college

football playoff. But specifically, we're here to also talk about and celebrate LeBron James, who turns 40 years young today on Monday. The Lakers got him a little bit of an early birthday present by getting him something we know that he loves and holds close to his heart, which is a 3-and-D wing, finally, after a couple years of not necessarily having one of those. Kirk, what do you think about this trade overall? Just to go for the details, just quickly, Dorian Finney Smith, Shake Milton Go from the Nets to the Lakers. The Lakers get DeAngelo, excuse me, the Nets to the Lakers, the Nets get D'Angelo, Russell, Maxwell, Lewis, three seconds, two of them unprotected. Did you like this deal, Kirk, for the Lakers? Yeah, of course. I mean,

anybody doesn't. I'd love to have that conversation. I think Rob Polinka did pretty well. I mean, three second round picks for a player who's going to slide right in and make that team look better on offense where they really struggled. But I love how you phrased it, Justin. Like, I wish they would have gotten this kind of player for him for his 37, 38, and 39th birthday.

It's been a while since the king of the three-point assist, the league's all-time leader in three-point assists is LeBron James. He's assisted on more threes than Stefan has made. Pat Riley knew to surround him with shooting. The cavaliers knew to surround him to shooting. The only time the Lakers really did that, they won the freaking championship. It feels like it's a long time coming.

But I love the move here in 2024 for the 40-year-old LeBron James to get somebody like Dorian Finney Smith on the edge of that offensive scoring area for him. I mean, it's perfect. Man, I don't know. I have to disagree. Three cracks at a potential Brony James-type player.

You let that go to bring Doreen Phine Smith in? I can't believe that. No, I'm kidding. Obviously, I just think Delo's skills were just redundant. They don't need his on-ball stuff. Like, the shooting kind of comes and goes. And obviously, he's horrible at defense, which Finney Smith is going to be,

if nothing, he's going to be competent on that and be at least decent on catching shoots. So, you know, just like as a fit, Finney Smith makes way more sense in terms of Laker deficiencies than what DeLo does. I guess Delo can go replace Dennis Schrooter on the net. I guess that makes sense for them. And, you know, getting three second round picks for Finney Smith isn't the worst thing ever.

And, you know, I think the Lakers made a nice move, even if it's on kind of the margins, you know. So the Lakers traded for Russell Westbrook on July 29, 2021. It has taken them three years and five months in order to revert the roster practically. back to the point it was before they made that. And now, as you guys kind of laid out there, the Lakers looked at their best when they just surrounded LeBron and AD with these type of guys. I really like the Finney Smith's fit for all the reasons you guys mentioned. And I also like that he's kind of a bigger version than they have and what they found in Max Christie. Like, Finney Smith is going to be able to guard bigger. And there were some rumors going into the season

that they might try to acquire another center, either to pair with AD in the starting lineup or even bring them off the bench. I'm glad that they didn't do that. This feels like the best version of that. And so you have Finney Smith who can guard the bigger guys. You have Max Christie. Still Young's figuring it out, but he acquitted himself as a three and D wing who can guard guards and ones and twos and perhaps some threes there. And so there's just like a balance to the roster that they haven't had since that bubble title. I think the big question though, Kirk, is that team worked because it practically spotlighted AD and LeBron as top five players. AD has been incredible. this year. JJ has leaned into him and that has worked really well for them. But I think to your point

to the piece that you wrote on the ringer a couple days ago, like can LeBron still be a guy who could lift these type of guys around him? Is there still a title run left in LeBron with these type of guys around him? No, I don't think so, to be blunt. I think it's a good move. I think it helps the Lakers go deeper. But this is a young man's game, dude. I'm on the wrong side of 40 myself. I wouldn't want to be chasing and 25-year-olds around at LA Fitness. And, like, that's what this guy's trying to do. And you can see it. He's not the same guy.

I'm not throwing shade. He's the best 40-year-old player I've ever seen play basketball in my life. But he can't be expected to be the guy who's going to go win a finals MVP. He just, that's too much to ask night in, night out. But I think this makes them much better, Justin. And I think the West is a little uneven now.

with Lucas injury. I think OKC still deserves to be a clear favorite. Then you have Memphis, Dallas, and then a slew of teams that have some flaws, like Denver, Houston. I think L.A. is in that group.

And I'll never bet against LeBron James, but I just don't think, I'd be curious to hear what Waz says. I don't think this is a championship contender as presently constructed. But I'm eager to hear what you think. What do you think, was? I mean, I don't think anybody watched the Lakers this year said to themselves, they were Dorian Finney Smith away from championship contention.

Like, you can't credibly make that statement. I think it's nice that they're going in the direction of being a better team, a more well-fitted, well-rounded team. But no, I don't think they're in the class of, you know, OKC, certainly not Dallas or even Memphis, for that matter. Even though they whipped up on Memphis the other night, I just think, you know, they still got too many holes. on offense. Too much of the shot creation is dependent on Austin Reeves. Who I like is a really good player, is a nice player. If he didn't play for the Lakers, man, nobody would know who Austin Reeves was for him. You know, but he's got such an outsized

role on the team. And I just don't think he's good enough for that. As great as AD has been, as great as LeBron is still played, you know, even at a diminished state. I just don't think they have the juice on offense to do it. And on defense, you know, they've gotten better in recent weeks. Like the past two weeks, they've looked competent. They've played on a strain. They look like they're playing together. But I don't think they have a lot of defensive talent, if we're being real.

So, no, I don't think this makes them a contender in the West. But I like that they're better. You know, that'll be more fun to watch. So they've won six of their last date coming into Monday. Three of those were against the Sacramento Kings. Unfortunately, they took just all. all the benefit of beating up on the Kings as they've started to figure things out. We'll get to Mike Brown and they're firing a little bit later. I will say they have found something. They feel

like there's more of a flow on offense. I do like what they've done with Rui Hachamara, basically punting on center and working him in as a small ball center. I think like bring Coloco in every once in a while. And so it just seems like there's much more of a logic to everything. And then Finney Smith kind of fits that whole idea. I think the West is starting to remind me of what it was two years ago when the Lakers made the West finals, whereas like there was one clear definitive favorite that separated itself from the fact, from the pact in the nuggets. And then there was everybody else kind of clawing to get into that range. I think the good thing for the Lakers is I think that they probably have a track to get back to that point again. And OKC doesn't have

a Yokic type who could just slam the door shut as soon as you get there. I mean, I believe in the Thunder. I think they're going to make the finals. I think they're clearly the team in the West that everyone's trying to chase. But if you have any doubts about them at this point, you're like, maybe in a series against LeBron is like, Shea going to have enough guys in order to support him? I'm not sure. And so I don't know.

I'm starting to convince myself of it. I know that sounds crazy because like probably two weeks ago, Kirk, we were talking about the Lakers just being a complete catastrophe. Like maybe they might not make the play in and whatnot. But I don't know. Do you think that they could end up in like the West finals even? Potentially. I would put that at their ceiling.

I mean, permission to get nerdy here for a second. Like, net rating is a better predictor of playoff success than winning percentages. So on the one hand, the Lakers are 18 and 13. That's nice. They just got better with Dorian. But on the other hand, when LeBron's on the court, their net rating is minus six. And the people who look at the game the way I do, this is just a giant red flag, dude. Like, this guy is playing most of the game, and you're losing when he's out there.

And I take that pretty seriously. Does that mean they're not going to make the playoffs? No, I just don't believe they're built to last through the gauntlet of what's going to be the 2025 Western Conference playoffs. I think they're in good shape. They're better than I thought they would be at this point in the season, hand up on that. LeBron's playing well for his age. But remember, when they won it all, dude, they had Dwight and Javail next to Anthony. they had Danny Green, KCP, Coosma.

They had dudes. They had dudes that could rebound, that could play physical defense, and they were a top half offensive team and a very, very good defensive team. I'm not saying either of those things about this team. This team is struggling to score and is not the defensive juggernaut that championship team was. And it's certainly not as physical as that Dwight Howard DeVail front court with Anthony made them.

So I just don't see that for them. I couldn't see them like you're saying, Justin, sneaking in to the conference finals. I'd put that at their ceiling. Yeah, I'm with Kurt. I mean, I think getting to the second round would be an amazing feat for this team. And, yeah, the thing about that 2020 team, people laugh about the bubble championship or whatever. But throughout that season and in the bubble, they had an elite defense. They beat the hell out of people on defense.

They, like Caruso and KCP and Kuzma on the perimeter. And then LeBron, when he would dial it up, he would find it within himself to dial it up on defense, obviously backed by ADN and Dwight. Like that was something, they had a special defensive unit. There's nothing special about either of the units on this team. It's just that's just not the case. And yeah, you know, one of their best players is a guy that's about to turn 40 and that has its limitations. But I just don't think they have the roster depth that, though, that previous team had. And they pretty much haven't since they let all their win guys.

go in order to bring Russell Westbrook in and in order to be cheap as hell and not keep Caruso. Yeah, even to bring Schroeder in the original time, getting rid of Danny Green almost as like flotsam as salary matching fodder. And then he just went on to play two more years with Philly. It's like, whoops. Sorry about that. Yeah, I would put the Lakers a doubtful to make the West finals, if only because the Grizzlies have looked very good when John Morant is there. But you could kind of find all these caveats to all the teams that they're probably eating against. Shah has been in and out of the lineup, including this weekend. He wasn't available for a ding and debt. These things just keep coming up. Dallas, I think Wyn Wright looks incredible,

but Luca's now out for what? Probably a month and you don't know when he's going to be back. They just can't find the right combination of guys at the right time. The Rockets are young. The Clippers working Kauai back in. Denver has looked atrocious defensively of late in Yokic in particular. And so, I don't know, the door is open, but we'll see what happens. But I think this ultimately just becomes a LeBron conversation. I wonder, Kirk, like, the context makes sense around him. I think Reeves is playing well. Offensively, he seems to be finding, like, a version that he had probably when he first

popped a couple years ago. I mean, do you think, like, they could even put a good defense around LeBron, considering his limitations on that end? I think a good defense is there. I don't think a great one is there. I think Dorian is not what people think he was, like, in Dallas five years ago. But he's good. And I think, well, I said this earlier.

he's good. He can go out of three or a four pretty well. You try to put him in that small ball five. I don't think he's going to be that guy for you. But he's a good defender. And certainly exporting DeAngelo Russell will have positive defensive impact as well. So I think their defense is Western Finals ready. I think it can get to that level. It's the other end, dude. Like there was a 10-game stretch, I think, when I put up my efficiency landscape last week, where only the Wizards had a worse offense than Los Angeles Lakers. Like, I'm sorry. That's not a good thing.

The Wizards, one of the best G-League teams we have. But I think when you can say that, it's like, how are you going to get through the playoffs with an offense that can't score? And to was his point earlier, when you're 29th in offense over a stretch like that, you're not a Dorian Finney Smith away from going up and beating Nicole Leokic in a playoff series. or beating the Dallas Mavericks with Kyrie and Luca in a playoff series to get to the Western final. So I think the problem, Justin, is on the offense. And like a lot of things, there's just an occasionality with LeBron James at 40 that wasn't there five, 10 years ago when you could bank on this guy. You have LeBron James, your top five offense, period.

Period. We can't say that anymore, especially when they haven't done a great job, surrounding him with that three-point talent. So I think the defense is fine, but I think ultimately their ceiling is going to be on the offense event. What do you think, Was LeBron at 40, are you in your feelings today as we celebrate probably the best player of our era? You know, it's funny because I was never really a Kobe person growing up. You know, I was kind of like annoyed with the Mike comparisons because I was like a Michael Jordan sort of sick of fan. And then I became a big fan of LeBron. But, and, you know, obviously followed his career really closely and all of that stuff.

But, like, I remember when Kobe retired, a deep sadness just, like, engulfed me. I was, like, surprised by, like, how sad I was that Kobe was going. It was, like, weird that Kobe would not be part of what I was doing in terms of my MBA consumption. And I would imagine when that day comes for LeBron is going to be, like, you know, even worse than that. because for me, LeBron is kind of the last vestiges of my youth. I was a young person when I became aware of LeBron James. I might have been a freshman in high school. You know, I myself was a high school basketball player when ESPN started putting him on the TV.

And I just couldn't believe that somebody in high school could be that good. You know, because when you show up to a game and the team as a 6-8 kid, the guy can barely chew and walk and chew gum at the same time. right much less have a handle have hops have court vision you know hit threes it was it was just like mind blowing it to watch him at every single step just you know accolate accolate accolade and achievement has just been crazy to think that the guy's now 40 um and you know basically this is it this is the swan song it's kind of it's kind of nuts i'm getting a little choked up just thinking about it now very it reminds me of what people say about funerals it's like people are sad for the person you lost but also

that like your own mortality is starting to come up to focus. You're just realizing that we're all on this collar wash in addition to not a kid anymore. No, sir. No, I mean, I think the crazy thing, Kirk, is like, you kind of hit it. It's the consistency because on nights like against Steph on Christmas, you see him turn it on and it still looks or is a facsimile of like what we're used to. And so I still convince myself that like he could still do it. And I do wonder in a short series where he has time to rest and game plan, he could still be a more methodical version of what he once was. But I don't know.

What do you think? Well, I was at the Spurs at the end of Tim, you know, and I was looking back at Tim Stass. He was 39, and he was still good. We thought we could win it all that year. And the Thunder had a different idea. And shout out to that team. They're really good. But Tim was playing 65 games, famously, you know, one of the main innovators of load management,

along with Greg Popovich. But it helped. And when it's time for the playoffs, he's playing 25 minutes a night in the regular season, third even playing 60 games, something like that. And if I could change one thing about what our friend JJ is doing and what LeBron is doing, because I know he has some input too, is like, bro, we don't need this 82 times this year. We need this April, May, and June, if we're lucky. Because you're right, the Christmas night is like,

and he has like a 35 point triple double, I think it gets to Atlanta, a chase down block on Dyson Daniels this year that looks like he's still third. years old. I just want them to take a page out of the Greg Popovich manual of superstar career and elongate how much LeBron we get, particularly this season. He's playing more minutes than two of the next starters who start for tips. Like, what do we do? Like, be careful. That's the king. That's the old king right there. We have to be careful with this dude, JJ. That's what I would say to them if I could change one thing because I really do think there is something left in the tank but we have to protect we have to protect it a little bit yeah it was it was you're right

just like on Christmas day um watching LeBron and you know he turns it up because he's playing against Steph and draymond who he has a relationship with and obviously wants to beat them and it's like the prime time game and it's like wow like okay if this guy could do this you know over the course of a series, like, man, the Lakers could be a really dangerous team. A. D. goes out and it's just like, whatever, we got LeBron, we'll figure it out. It just feels like this stuff is way harder to summon. Even like, you know, within the playoff series where there's two and sometimes three days apart from games, that like, it's tough for him to get there, you know, seven times in a series, you know, and some people might be like, well, you know, maybe he needs

to do it for us. Like, no, he could play great in the game. still lose, right? And so that's why I'm just like, I don't know. As much as like, if LeBron played on a team where if we could like do a cross sports reference where like Brady goes to the Bucks and, you know, the Bucks have the best defense in the league, they have a really good offensive line. It's just like, all right, Brady just has to be good in moments and like all of this surrounding talent can kind of carry the day.

That's not what's happening on the Lakers. This guy has to be an envisive. VP kind of player every day in order for this team to succeed. And so, you know, that's why it's tough for me to think that the Lakers are going to be, you know, too, too competitive composed season time. Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Lakers have looked their best when Austin Reeves has really played his best in probably two years because they need that supplementary creator, Kyrie type in order to take the reins whenever is necessary.

Like, yeah, like, you could do it. But actually, what you need to do is you need to do is you need to. to be on an all-star level whenever LeBron needs you to be. It's more about dialing it up more than it is being consistent in playing around LeBron. And I do wonder if there is still a move for the Lakers just because they maintained all of their first-round picks. And I think this probably gets at probably the central tension in LeBron's career practically since he left Miami where it's like, how much does the organization value the post-Lebron period versus the now? Whereas you could say, like if there was a player to go out and get, like, it would make sense to maybe replace Reeves or

something like that and just have that offensive pop and just make the best version of this team. Let's go for it. But you could also argue, like, well, there might be a post-lebron period. It might be coming up as soon as next season. Let's try to find someone and prioritize AD in the same way that, frankly, the heat have with Bam out of bio and Jimmy Butler. I'm curious whether or not teams are as interested in the contracts that the Lakers have. Kirk is someone who worked in a team, you might have more insight into this, like Arrui Hachamura, the extra year on that, the Jared Vanderbilt contract looks pretty bad.

Do you think like there's any room for them to do anything more? And would you, as an organization, considering where LeBron is at his career, go out and try to swing something that helps LeBron more than it helps you down the road maybe three years from now? I guarantee you they're going to try. I mean, that's the DNA of the bus family and the Lakers brand, especially with this clutch LeBron era in place in Los Angeles. They're going to try. But I think the CBA is going to make all these kinds of transactions just harder for the

Lakers. But my thesis is they want to make a move. It's who this team is. They live and die by trading players. They certainly, I think, would prefer to have another big next to Anthony Davis that could give them an opportunity to play bigger sometimes. So I think they will. Whether or not they will pull one off, I think is a bigger question.

What do you think, why? Do you think, like, if you were Rob Polinka, you're wearing a gorgeous, like, zip-up team polo? Are you looking ahead of LeBron? Are you saying, actually, what we need to do is LeBron is playing well enough now, AD's playing well enough now. It's like, let's try to accelerate this team. Let's make the best version of this team. Yeah, it's hard because the kind of players that I guess were on the market,

the Tray Young's, who I guess doesn't, he's not getting traded anymore. I don't know. It's pretty good, Atlanta. It feels like Atlanta likes what's happening over there. You know, Zach Levine, whose name has come up a trillion times. Brandon Ingram, at least same, like, Zion Williamson? I mean, like, what kind of deal do they even make, right, in terms of who's out there that would be this perfect figure?

I don't think there's any centers, certainly not, or bigs that are out there that could turn this thing around. I almost wonder if, you know, if they could take a chance on a guy who hasn't been proven to see if they could figure something out. Like to see if they could find their own, you know, Hartenstein on the Knicks last year where nobody thought this guy was going to play, much less be like a freaking cog in the postseason machine that he became. I wonder if they could get creative and try to find that kind of player because I don't think there's a star big. And I don't know why you would deploy that much resources for a big next to AD for somebody who's supposed to be just more complimentary to what AD is doing. And now, you know, I don't know if, I guess upgrading Austin Reeves might be the idea,

making him the centerpiece of something. But, you know, again, with the CAP situation being what it is, I don't know how they do this. Yeah, I was just going to say, I think, like, they won with those two bigs, like putting Javelle and Dwight next to Anthony gives them sort of a different look, sort of akin to OKC when they go big. But I would look at Valenciunis. I would look at Vucovich in Chicago and potentially, who was the other one I was thinking?

I'll come back to it. But just another, oh, Pertil in Toronto, I think. Somebody like that who could come in and just sturdy, up the defense should be, they should be considering. I'm not advocating them doing that, but getting that second big that gives them a completely different look in their front court and lets Anthony Davis maybe focus a little bit more on offense and less on rebounding during long stretches of the season. I think that could help them.

Yeah, I like it because it would give them different looks. And as we've seen the playoffs, a lot of the time it comes down to malleability. And you look at some of the younger teams, they've been able to build the depth in order to play against anybody. Like it feels like the Grizzlies, for instance, have like seven centers just ready to pop in whenever they need it. I almost wonder if the Grizzlies, I doubt that they would help the Lakers. And I don't know if the Lakers have what they need.

If anything, the grizzlies probably want veteran players. But like, you know, Brandon Clark, is he expendable just because you have Jay Hoff? Is there something in a three-way trade where you get Clark and they trade for maybe a wing? They seem to be like they might be in the Cam Johnson sort of mix. So I agree. The big is valuable. I think unfortunately, AD, just like the shooting just never came around for him. It seemed like this season, like he seemed like he was showing progress in a way that he hadn't in recent years.

And it seems like this is now a trend where it's like the first two months he puts up more. He shows signs of progress and ultimately reverts back to the version he is, which is still an all-star Hall of Fame level big. We need to appreciate AD for what he is. But like he is what he is at this point. He's a center. And so getting Finney Smith, for instance, I think matters and makes a lot of sense in that regard. what do you guys think about this trade from the next point of view because i thought it was interesting that they basically traded schrooter and phiney smith for seconds uh so six seconds in

total so no first so i almost wonder if it sets a market in a pretty bad way for teams looking for first round picks shouts to my portland trailblazers who have been dying for a first round pick for jeremy grant unfortunately uh they're also being more hardcore and metal about tanking in a way that I think a lot of teams are a little bit skittish of. They were basically like, Schrooter is playing so well. Let's get him to fuck out of here and let his sink like a freaking stone in the standings. Kirk, do you like this trade for the net side of things? Pretty much, I would give it a B to steal from Kevin Pelton's trade grades. But I would say a B, I'm not mad at it. I thought they could have gotten more, maybe. But, but, I would say, I'm

But I think the more interesting story is what you were alluding to, they're not done, dude. They told me, somebody on that team told me if they started winning, they were going to trade everybody. And unfortunately, these guys, they started winning. And they got some attractive pieces left. So this is just like the second inning for them, dude. I think Cam Johnson's got to get his suitcases ready to go. I mean, I think Nick Claxton, whoever else, and I kid a little bit. But I think this is the biggest seller in the next few weeks in the NBA marketplace, Justin.

I think this one was okay, not great. But if they end up doing a deal for Cam Johnson, they better get more than this. And I think they do have motivations to go. Remember when we fixed tanking, by the way, Justin? Wasn't that great when we fixed tank? Yeah, they had an all-time tanking performance this weekend. or last night, I should say. But yeah, I don't know.

I'd be curious what you guys think on this trade, but also if you think there's more to come out of the Brooklyn sort of trade machine. Yeah, they had to start doing stuff. The team, like, as it was constructed coming into the season, like, it's been a long enough time. There's like, all right, this team is, like, not bad enough to tank. Like, they just weren't.

And so getting rid of Schrooter, who was at the, you know, sort of at the forefront, of their unexpected competence that, you know, made all the sense. Did three second rounders, you know, with the Lakers, they're rarely like, you know, some kind of lottery team where you're going to get a pick into like 35 range or something like that. But, you know, it's nice to have those three cracks sort of lottery tickets out of it. And it makes sense for a team who just is trying to start from scratch.

They're starting completely over. And so, you know, them maximizing the ability to bring younger guys in there. I'm not mad at it. And in terms of other guys, I'd like to see go. Yeah, like, Claxton, you know, it's weird. Like, they go out and they pay the guy, but then now he's, like, also trade fodder again, which is just weird how the current NBA works. Like, is this one, and in one breath is like, all right, like, we believe in your talent,

and we think you can be part of what we're doing in the future. and on the other breath, it's like, yeah, maybe we can get some picks for this guy. And so, yeah, so him and Cam Johnson, honestly, are the two guys left that I think most teams would be looking for. Yeah, and I think the Grizzlies in particular would be interested in Cam Johnson. They were reportedly the other team in the mix here.

And I think it's interesting, like the juxtaposing offers that were out on the table, according to Mark Stein and some other people. So apparently the Grizzlies offered a protected first rounder up to top 17 protections. Luke Conard, who is an expiring, but also John Conchar, who has two years and $12 million left on the deal. And so on the one hand, this seems like a pretty precedent-setting trade for the rest of the market, probably going through the deadline.

And that's why I think it's interesting from just more about a transactional nerd POV. On the one hand, it's probably a bad thing that Dorian Finney Smith, the starting caliber, 3-D wing, who we just said is so advantageous to a guy like the braun. Your superstar needs a 3-D guy. You get in seconds for him. And so that's bad for any guy holding one of those types of guys. On the other hand, they basically established that bad, like any contract like beyond this season, anything beyond an expiring is bad in a way that they can now leverage in future trades with Cam Johnson, for instance. And so if they go to the Grizzlies right now and they're like, yeah, we've just showed you that Conchar, we don't want that.

We want clean books. We want to just like work with Tyrese Martin, I guess for the rest of the season and just see what's going on there. and so maybe they can extract more out of a Johnson deal as a result. I don't love getting the seconds, but I think them being so precise and upfront about what their motivations are for this season is playing an advantage. And the same way it is with like the sons, like the sons are like, we're going to be a second apron team and we're going to be so over the second apron. We're not even going to be able to see the second apron.

We're in like a fifth apron at this point. And as a result, they were able to swing a Bradley Beal trade because nobody else wanted to take that on. They're like, take all these fucking pick swaps. I think the nets are the counter example to that where it's like, oh, we're going to be so bad. And we don't care how bad we are. And you guys actually have to tank as bad as us just to get into that top three range. I got a question for both of you guys.

Is Cam Thomas nailed to the floor? And if he's not, like, what kind of team wants to make a move for Cam Thomas? I think Cam Thomas will help the Brooklyn Nets achieve their current goals. I think he's the perfect player to help them achieve what they want to achieve this season was. That's my take. He's right at home in Brooklyn. Yeah, he's going to take 30, 40 shots a game for this team now. He's nuts.

Because I'm like, if a team is like, look, we really want to bring some genuine shot creation. Like, that is one thing he can do. He can get his shot off pretty much against any defense. And obviously on the right night, you know, he could drop 40 on somebody's head. He's just not that consistent. And, you know, the assist numbers, I know at the beginning of the season, people were ooing and eyeing because he was getting like three assists a game. But like, I wonder if a real team would ever say to themselves, you know, Cam Thomas might be somebody we should sniff around. Yeah, I think a team like, for instance, Houston, a team that just needs like consistent scoring punch.

when they're looking around and they're like, oh, there's like four young guys we want to play through and develop. But actually what we need is like 10 points in this fourth quarter. I could see him making a lot of sense for those type of teams, like a younger team that just needs stability offensively. I imagine, like, he came back at the right time. So I imagine they're probably surveying offers at this point. So we'll see about that.

Kirk, what do you think about the idea, though, of like precedent-setting trades is someone who's worked with the team? Like, do you think like the market like has is now looking at this and is saying like, oh, we're going to, whenever we're trading for a Cam Johnson or Thomas or any other player on another team, like we're using this as an example for what we're going to give you in terms of value for your guy? Yeah, that's that's true. I'll never forget the best example that's a free agency signing. But when Moskov, I think got the first deal in the 16 free agency period, we were also at 1201 and we saw the numbers come across. We don't have a chance to get anybody. Because the market, it is, it is a little bit of a constrained market situation.

And these transactions are not happening in a vacuum. And again, I think the marketplace is just sort of harder to deal with with the aprons that you're alluding to and the rules. So there's just lack of migration happening. It's just fewer transactions. And I think that's going to, and there's just fewer bidders, fewer bidders for a player like Cam Johnson this time around. So I think it is a good way to look at it, Justin. And like I said, I think they could have done a little bit better, but maybe that's just me living in the previous CBA environment

because this might be the new reality for a good 3-and-D wing. We could literally start for almost any other team in the league three seconds. Was, what do you think about Cam Johnson now as like the next guy? Do you think the Grizzlies, I guess this is more of a grizzlies question, but they seem like they have a lot of picks and they have the motivation to maybe turn, like two guys that's into the bench into one guy who's a solid rotation player. Would you like them like maybe

overpaying for a Cam Johnson just to make a swing at this this season? I think so just because they have so much depth. Like it's not going to crush their depth to get rid of a few guys to bring in a Cam Johnson who like you know, back in the days we used to call them a

three and D we realized the D part isn't really, you know, too big of a part of the equation. The D ain't Dian. Right. If we're being honest, but I think on the Grizzlies, man, if being surrounded by that much youth and athleticism, his defensive sort of deficiencies won't be as pronounced on the team. And I think he's shooting legitimately around what Jai is doing

would be just an incredible addition. Because people do have to guard this guy out to 25, 26 feet, man. He is that lethal. in terms of his range. And he's gotten better over the years, you know, since the sun's days of actually putting the ball on the floor, moving it, even getting all the way to the basket every now and again. And so I think that would be a beautiful move.

But I'm the guy that's always like screw the future and get the talent in right now, especially when you have, you know, generational type players like John Moran on your team. Like, to me, the time is always now. And so, yeah, I'm a bit biased. in that sense. I think they should, you know, put some assets out there and bring in a Cam Thomas or somebody else who adds that similar dynamic, who is somebody who just absolutely has to be guarded from outside and can be like respectable on defense. What do you think, Kirk? Cam Johnson,

Memphis Grizzly. I think it's going to be a more competitive landscape. I think Golden State wouldn't mind getting back in business with Sean Marks and the Nets for that player. I think that Cleveland Cavaliers, have had a weakness, relatively speaking, and their incredible lineup at the three, the three, four, that he could slide in and give them another option there. They're a team that thinks they can win it this year, and they have the record that sort of suggests they might. So I think Cam Johnson, credit to him, he's a great player. He plays off ball and can make almost any offense look a little bit smarter, about

seven, 10 times a night from the three-point line. And I think that kind of player is going to have a market. So Memphis, no notes on what you guys said. I just don't think they're alone in yearning for a player like Cam Johnson to finish the season with. We are about to enter the new year two days from now. And the Cleveland Cavaliers have four losses. It's so crazy because I keep thinking that this is a Celtics title to lose at this point, especially is the way that like they've integrated KP back in there pretty seamlessly. And it's just kind of been steamrolling ever since. The calves are a juggernaut based purely on record. And if they added Cam Thompson to that mix, woof, like that's a contender. I would be afraid of them, was. Yeah, there's certainly would be more

dangerous. Like the sort of small forward by committee that they've been employing has been good enough, especially just because they're so locked into their new style of playing, man, that it's kind of just been a plug and play at that position and let their guy guys sort of, you know, the big four sort of dictate everything and the guys just plug in and play around it. I wonder what they could offer, you know, more than some of these other competitors for the services of Cam Thomas. But, like, obviously it's been what pretty much.

Since they got Donovan Mitchell, we've been staring at that position in their lineup. Like, when are they going to get the freaking, that three-point, that three-position figured out? Rest and peace to the Dean Wade fan club. I know I was on that bandwagon for a few months, and it never really panned out. But, like, I do think, obviously, Camp Thomas just, excuse me, Camp Johnson just makes way more sense in that role for them. If you're the Celtics, that's got to be your worst nightmare. But I think, you know, the Celtics is still definitely the most talented side in the conference, got the most continuity, you know, the most like guys that have been together in like big games

and actually achieved in those situations. So I think they're still like pretty handily the favorite in my mind. But the Cavs every week by week, they just keep smoking people. And I'm like, damn, like at what point do I adjust my priors? I could tell you've been watching EPL because you refer to them as an aside. Like you're really in the holiday spirit. Oh, EPL's rough for me. I'm not going to get into it, but it's been a pretty tough six weeks here.

But yeah. I bet. Well, the one team that we haven't talked about probably could be one of the biggest movers on the market. That's the Sacramento Kings. If they ultimately decide to deal a Deerun Fox before the trade deadline. seems unlikely, but the way things are heading, it probably seems like an inevitability. We talked about this on a pod last week.

Since then, Mike Brown, despite winning a shitload of games, got fired. Ultimately, is the fall guy. Fourth winning his coach in franchise history. Not a lot of competition there, but yes, it's still pretty good. You saw pretty much every NBA coach come out. And now this is what happens when a coach is fired. It's like nobody likes to see another coach fired. But it seemed like there was a bit more visceral, like just like, like there's more like poison darts being thrown in this one in the King's direction as a result.

Mike Brown is Spurs Mafia, Kirk, right? So you have to stand up for your guy. Yeah, I got to know Mike like a lot of people around the league. I love Mike Brown. I know he's had some tough stops as a head coach who hasn't. He's been around the league at that level for so long. but what I'd say is like there's five to ten ways to fire somebody and they chose the dumbest way. They chose a way that I think looks bad and that's what I think provoked this response.

It wasn't that Mike Brown got fired in the middle of the year, but if you read the quotes or the press conference appearances, you watch them, whether it's Steve Kerr or Eric Spolstra, you know, people who have a lot of respect for Mike, they were just mad. added how it went down and the timing and the messaging. About to get an employee apparently. Right. Right. It's just another blemish for an organization that's had a few blemishes over the years. And I think it got that kind of reaction because people, A, love Mike Brown, but B, don't want to be treated like that. Don't respect an organization that would fire a guy on the way to the airport to take a team playing. This needs to be done in person, according to a lot of us.

This needs to be done with, you know, the respect that that kind of transaction demands for a guy who won coach of the freaking year that recently, this is a guy who took an organization that should be happy to have a coach win coach of the year. Just to do a 180 on him like that, I think it sat poorly with me. and obviously, Justin, with a lot of people around the NBA. But I think it's because of how they put him down, so to speak, that it got such a visceral reaction around the league. So people that I spoke to about this,

because I was a little bit surprised by how pissed off all the – I mean, the coaches, they always rally the troops when they feel like another coach has been done wrong. But, like, people were, like, really pissed off, as Kirk mentioned. And in the sense that I got it, I think there's a – There's a consensus brewing around the league that the kings have run sort of like a clown show. And what people are really voicing their opinion about is Vivek Ronadivay and his style of ownership slash management or governance of that team.

And people don't respect him. That's just the bottom line. People think he's kind of, he's a bit of a clown and doesn't know what he's doing. And, you know, like we're reading all of these stories, you know, Shams and all these guys putting this stuff throughout the leading up weeks of Fox being like, yeah, there was a reason why he didn't take the extension. And maybe he is open to going to another team and blah, blah, blah. And the sort of what you're supposed to understand is like there's a lack of trust in what this organization can do to make his career go in the direction that he would like it to in terms of playing meaningful games in the postseason. Right. I don't know how or why this makes them look better

other than the fact that maybe Fox himself doesn't really like Mike, didn't really like Mike Brown anymore. And Mike Brown's last press press conference, he absolutely savaged him quite correctly, by the way. Like, he blew their play. He stunked up on that play. And he killed him. And I think the Kings, they're probably right to feel this way.

I think it's a little overdone. Like, it's not like De Aaron Fox's, like some Luca Donchage figure, but the kings are gung-ho about keeping him in town. They absolutely do not want to lose him. And so if the coach was making noise and annoying a guy who you're desperate to keep in the building, then the coach has got to go. And that's just the business of the NBA. I think the response is just, you know, people just looking for Vevac because he's a fool.

Sorry, Vivek. Yeah, it kind of wreaks a desperation of trying to appease the one star that you've been able to homegrow in your entire time there as owner. And Lord knows, even before Vavak, things were very difficult to not only get stars there, but to keep them there ultimate. And like, you think Kings fans are pining for the days of the cheap ass, broke-ass, Maloves? Well, I can't imagine that was better per se, but I don't know if it's like that much better

if it is at all. But it just like, it just seems like we're following the script here with Fox where it's like, you get the story in preseason where it's like, he's turned down the extension. we'll see what happens and then all of a sudden Rich Paul come into town and then all of a sudden we're getting closer to the deadline

and like he's getting more visceral and like the quotes are getting worse and then like you fire the coach as a last stitch effort in order to appease him but it seems like to me the writing is on the wall not only for this team but probably Fox overall I just don't see how they turn things around in a way that

would appease him and suggest that long term there's a vision here if you're firing your coach that you just extended six months prior for three extra years. Like there is no long-term vision here. If anything, it just compounds the issue. It doesn't solve anything else. And just out on like a basic, like how the team functions work.

Like, I just don't see what they were thinking with the DeMarre erosion trade. I guess just like adding more offense to an offensive leaning team and just like reestablishing that identity like in a broad sense makes sense. But I was watching them the other night against the Lakers. And just like, he seems like just so completely like compartmental. analyzed from the rest of the team playing, the way that they play, where it's like, it's almost like the team is like very punk rock and it's just like, you know, we're just running and we're passing and everyone's having fun and everyone's handoffs. And then like they pass it to Demar de Rosen,

who's like the cello player in this punk rock band. And it's just like, he does his thing. It's beautiful. It's poetic. And it's just, but it's so different than everything else they have going on. And so like, it's just so fragmented, Kirk. I don't know what to make sense of the Kings. And ultimately, I think in a small market, this tends to mean that like bad things are coming as a result. Yeah, I don't know what to make of it. And I'll layer on one more level here, which is like they chose to get rid of Tyrese Halliburton, who was in my community of nerds and stats guys, like one of the absolute best prospects of his draft class.

I know he's had a bad year this year. But dude, he was an Olympian. He's an all star. They also got rid of him. Like the NBA team that's gotten rid of Tyrese Halliburton and brought in the Margarozen in the 2020s is in a weird place. That's not shocking to the nerds out here. But it just, they don't have an identity.

They don't have a North Star. And if they lose Fox, it is. It's going to be bad for a team trying to tread water in a brutal Western conference. But that's what the Kings have been for our whole time covering the NBA guys. So should we even be surprised, question mark? I love Mike Brown. he's going to land on his feet. Should we be surprised by this, is my question, be all?

No. No. The dude that wanted to pioneer cherry picking in the NBA, not being able to run a competent organization, I'm not surprised that things aren't working out for him, Kurt. I just, I miss the days where, like, DeMarcus Cousins was putting out the snake in the grass, like tweets and whatnot.

We need to get back to there because back in the day, the Kings were bad, but there was like a certain theater to the badness. Now they're just bad, which is actually a sadder place to be in. And so I wish good things for Kings fans. Like they deserve the best. They certainly haven't had a lot of good in their lives over the past two decades. That playoff run two years ago was incredible. I thought that they would get back and stabilize things this year, but it just doesn't seem like

it's going right. Even to minus a bonus. The funniest thing is, like, you look at the story that the athletics, Amy, Mick, and I believe it was Anthony Slater did before the season where they're talking to Fox about like, I don't know. Like, even Sabonis is like two years. We got two years here. And it's just like, you know if that guy is being up front about how bad things are. Like, you're in a bad state. So we'll see if they turn it around.

I doubt that they won't. But who knows. Why don't we wrap it there? Kirk, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome back. My pleasure. Thank you. We'll be back on Thursday, hopefully with Rob, who was actually sick.

We didn't actually throw him across anything or replace him. Isaiah Blakely, thank you for being our producer. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll see you next time. See you in 2025. Happy New Year, everyone. See you in 2020.