The Ringer NBA Show - LeBron Passes Jordan and Lakers Fans Are ... Apathetic? | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 7, 2019

We react to the underwhelming response from the Lakers crowd as LeBron James passed Michael Jordan for fourth on the NBA’s all-time leading scorers list (1:30). Then we crib a segment from the Magic’s television broadcast and answer "Is this anything?" with regards to the Warriors' recent struggles, Gordon Hayward’s game-winner, and the Mavs’ tanking (32:06). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Paolo Uggetti, Haley O’Shaughnessy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. The wizards underpaid John Wall. Ad should resign with the Pelicans. The Nets actually won the Celtics trade. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group show. I'm Justin Varyer and joining me today. special guest from the internet Hale O'Shaughnessy And also Follow Getty What's up?

I kind of want to start doing this In the like the SNL voice You know how I always do those intros? Sure Musical guest Bobby Wagner Wow That is pretty good

Yeah I knew exactly what you were talking about Right away I put too much thought into this I think is the only take over there Oh yeah Did you practice that? In my head yeah

That's good Not in front of the mirror yet But we can do that later Guys, basketball, it's happening still in the regular season. We're winding down here. What is it, about a month left ago? April 10th, I believe. About.

Is the end of the season. But there's still some drama going on. We still can't get rid of the Lakers, even as they slowly descend into chaos. Like, percentage-wise, we have gotten rid of the Lakers. But in all other facets, yeah, we cannot get rid of the Lakers. They're just the gift that keeps on giving. It has been quite season. Right.

I want to talk about last night. because last night was weird. And I said this to Paulo before we got on. It was such an awkward event. Obviously, LeBron passed Michael Jordan on the all-time scoring list for fourth, I believe. It just didn't seem like anybody cared, at least from watching from afar.

Paulo, you were there. What was it like actually in the arena? It was very strange in that just minutes ago when the first quarter ended, they were booing the team because they were like down already like 17 or 20. So it was incredible how quickly they shifted

from booing the team for missing free throws or like just being down in general to oh right we're going to stand up and cheer for LeBron because he just passed Michael throwing on the point. Like it happened it didn't happen like right after each other but it happened so closely together that like

the the awkwardness was felt and also I think that it was tweeted out that it was a league decision not to stop the game per se, even though they kind of did pause a little bit. But it was so, I also thought that the way in which he got it was very emblematic, which was him driving to the basket, getting fouled and making the shot. And you saw him and you sort of see him, like, you can see the weight on him and the weight of

like not just passing Jordan, which obviously he raped about afterward and whatnot, but also just like of what this season has been like for him. And yeah, it was just awkward. I mean, like, it was very, I think it was louder. and like it was a, there was a good cheer than maybe some people are making it out to be, but it was awkward in that it was sort of disjointed and it did feel like it could have been a bigger deal.

Yeah, it spoke to me just like the difference between LeBron and the Lakers, this kind of division that still hasn't really, like that gap has not been closed where LeBron still feels like he's a mercenary. Like, and that he's almost playing on this team as if it were an all-star team where he just puts on the jersey and then then goes home afterwards.

I think in particular I've been struck by how much Los Angeles like in the city nobody seems to care I think we all anticipated that this would just be a big citywide thing

where it would just almost change like not our daily lives but you would see it pretty often earlier before the season you mean LeBron being on the team in general

yeah just that there would be a buzz that you would be talking about it with people Powell wrote that thing before the season just about how there's all this graffiti that went up around the city. But I passed by one of those things every day on Melrose and there's now graffiti within the numbers. Oh, really?

Of LeBron that, I guess that guy never filled the numbers. It's just, I don't know. Good graffiti or anti-Lebron graffiti? I think it's just graffiti. Just graffiti. Yeah, I don't think it was making a statement. It was more like Bob. Just somebody's name. Chad's the Bob. I don't know. It's just, it just feels disjointed, I guess. know, the Lakers are very much an NBA establishment. And LeBron is just as much an NBA establishment. And I think that the discord between their lack of success and him being the biggest factor for their success has, I think that that also harms that, you know, the Lakers' fans' ability to celebrate something like this, something like him passing Jordan on the all-time score. list, but it's also just not their accomplishment. It doesn't feel like their accomplishment,

you know, whereas if it was Kobe, it would feel like their accomplishment because Kobe is theirs. Robben is very much his own person, has always been his own person. That's been the truth since he went to Miami. And I think that it just doesn't feel like any fan base can have ownership over this, except for the fan base that he's created that he's done the best job of since, I mean, I wasn't around, you know, in Jordan's prime, but his fan base is literally just LeBron fans. And he has created this entire army of people throughout his career who will follow him wherever. Right. I followed in Miami.

I followed him back to Cleveland. I'm still LeBron fan, you know, with him here in L.A. Same, yeah. So it's just very much like for the Lakers fans, this is not theirs. This is his first year here. He has not gone well. There's been a lot of turbulence. And on top of that, like, this guy is the most important factor for whether or not your team is successful.

And not only on the court, it seems like he's had a hand in some of the things off the court that have gone wrong. That's just part of what we assigned to LeBron is this extra pressure and almost blame. You know, we've talked about it on here before. Like, we all just kind of accept that he had some hand in the free agency. process and opinions on who they signed. We kind of all just assume that, right? And we really, I mean, he's never talked about that. He's never been like, I'm the one who seeks out these guys

or we go magic and I go over it together. Yeah, we all kind of give him some of that blame too. So off the court as well, he's just dealing with a lot of pressure from Lakers fans. And so I think that this accomplishment has been totally unappreciated. And that hurts. But, I mean, and history won't remember. History will probably remember it as a weird game,

but they won't remember it specifically. It's, like, not as big of a deal. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like a rental car, if you will, where you're like, you need it for, you have, you get it for a purpose, but like if it, like, crosses some sort of, like, mileage threshold. It's not, it's not, you know what I'm saying? Like, I remember, like, when my car, like,

that I had, like, had it for a while, like, crossed some, like, mileage system. And it was like, it was kind of cool. It was like, oh, like, finally got to, like, 100,000 miles or whatever, right? Did you pull to the side of the road? Yeah, it's like a picture of the automator and the whole thing. Exactly.

You know what I'm saying? Like this is like, it's like they're renting something, right? They're renting an experience for a very utilitarian purpose which is just to get a title again or even to be relevant again. And obviously if like Lonzo or Kuzma or Brandon Ingram end up getting some sort of, you know, milestone in which they're not. They're too young in their career to do. But just that's a different experience because the players were there from the beginning, you know.

It's kind of like how in, you know, with the Sixers in the process, they're going to and B to the death more so than any of the guys who eventually come in and put them over the top. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that they put the graphic up at a certain point where I think the top four scorers all time now had had Lakers stints. And now one of them was Carl Malone, who did, I believe, just the single year with the Lakers when they made that last push with the Kobe and Shaq pairing. I think LeBron right now is closer to him alone than any of those other luminaries where it's, it just feels like he's passing three. to your point. It felt very much like a 2019 experience.

It just feels like, and we've been talking about this around the office, how LeBron is projecting one thing via his social media and another thing actually on the court and the actual results don't match up. There's just like this

what LeBron wants to project to the world isn't necessarily a truth. It's almost like he is an influencer now. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, it is much more positive. than what's actually going on.

He is posting a lot of his individual accomplishments. Most notably, he's posted two after losses. One was the Pacers' loss, which was the worst loss in his 16 career season. They lost by 42 of the Pacers, and that's when he, I think, became the only player to be top 10 and assist in points point totals over his career. But I also get it. I feel bad for him. Like, you've worked this for this year, your entire career.

you are hitting these milestones at 34, you're still very much at full strength. Maybe we'll say this season he took a half, a mini tiny stepback, right, because of the groin injury. And, you know, there's even some speculation about whether he's fully healthy now. But he's still completely going. And he's passing all these people on these lists. He's doing the same thing he's always done in his career, which is blow expectations out of the water at the earliest age. you know, we usually ever see it. And he can't post an Instagram

because the Lakers, because he's not winning and he's got Lance Stevenson and Javille McGee and three young dudes by his side. I feel terrible for me because of that. Okay, so he can do whatever. I don't, personally, I don't care what he does on like social media. He can do whatever he wants. But at the same time, this was a choice he made.

Like, he did choose to come to the Lakers. He did choose to have that team around him to a certain extent because all the reports after free agency were that him and Magic had like sort of like come to this not agreement but just this is what the team was going to look like and you know I'm not saying it's his fault because he's still like averaging a near triple double but like it there is some sort of thing where like this is sort of the bed you you made for yourself and now you're unfortunately like laying in the worst possible version of it which is unfortunately because it's injuries it's you know suspensions even at the beginning of the season or whatever but like

the given the whole AD saga and all of that like it is sort of what you created. That's true. I mean, you did sign on to a team. Like players should think about the front office when they're signing or resigning with the team and he basically signed on with two guys who have no front office experience. Yeah, he kind of always seems to want it both ways. He wants to like, he wants all the accolades and he kind of wants to use the Lakers as a platform for various reasons. but at the same time, like, he's treating them like a vessel. And as a result, they went out and only signed one-year deals. And it seems like at the very least, based on the reporting,

that he had some influence on, like, what types of guys they were looking for. Maybe he didn't specifically ask for Javelle McGee, although I'm pretty sure he went out and called Lance Stevenson. So it's kind of like he always finds a way to distance himself from the bad stuff and only promote the good stuff, which I guess is what just leading me to the influence or stuff. Right. I think that's kind of fascinating, though, the point about how he's using the Lakers as a vessel, because that's, I think, what also gets at the heart of the disconnect that we saw last night between the fan base and him. Because the Lakers are an entity, like you said. They have so much history behind their team and so much legacy that

clashing with another person of that level of legacy and of that weight is making this kind of the stalemate where LeBron's doing his own thing and the fans are like, Like, well, you know, if we were winning, we'd probably feel different and we adopt you quicker and whatever. But there is a weird sort of like gap within that, that that's creating, I think, this awkward, like, vibe, if you will. And plus, like, L.A., like, they're only going to root for people who win. Like, this is how the, there are the hardcore fans, which they're always being, like, shouts to them. And then they're the Clippers fans. But for the most part, you know, if they're winning, things are well. If not, then, you know.

I was thinking about something that we talked about a little bit yesterday and how. everything, we all just assume that LeBron, because he's LeBron, will take them on their top and exceed expectations and he has on an individual level. But I do wonder if this is maybe the end of things for like his career and we just haven't come to accept it yet. I know, I've been dreading that. I like, I'll think about that in like moments when I'm not expecting to think about it. And it will just like fuck up the next like 15 minutes. Because. That LeBron is like perishing before.

It is. It is kind of like watching it happen. I honestly explained it to my dad the other day. Like, it's when you find out your parents aren't superheroes, aren't perfect. It really is. Like,

this guy has shown me like the greatest athletic feats I've ever seen in my life. And one of those feats is continuing this elite level of play well into his 30s. I mean, for a basketball player, well into his 30s, it's 34. Yeah. Being 30 isn't a bad thing.

No, it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. We're talking strictly in terms of basketball performance. But I think that that's what we're seeing. I just think that he simply cannot carry a team in the same way because of a number of things.

One of those I don't think we talk about nearly enough is the fact that he's in the Western Conference. If he was in the Eastern Conference, I think this would have been a completely different season. I think it would have been practically identical to the Cav seasons that he had lost. I do wonder should we hold that against him, though? The fact that he's in... But that's what Paul was saying is he chose that. If he's in the Western Conference and he can't hang, that's like, that's a pretty bad mark because he is a tough look.

But what I will say is that the... He's hanging. He's the freaking last fingernail on the edge of the clip. And everyone else is underneath him. I'm just saying, I think the point is that it's hard to say, should we put it on him that he switches conference and doesn't make it. But I think it's a very weird season, partly by his own doing, but partly, you know, the groin injury.

Like, I don't think we can sort of just take that out of the equation and compare, you know, LeBron with the Slakers roster and LeBron with the Cavaliers roster last year, which is not great either, you know? I think the injuries to all the young guys, like last night, like, Lonzo, Brandon Ingram, and Coosma were all out. Like, well, would all those guys be out if they were making, like, a legitimate playoff push, you think? What do you mean? I mean, like, at this point in the season, I think people are a little more lax with what is an injury.

Like, Kuzma, like, maybe he'd miss a game, but he'll probably be, like, out for the rest of the season sort of thing. That's a good point. But I'm just saying, like, I think that there were so many, like, literally this was a season for hell, not just for LeBron, but for the Lakers. And I think that should factor in it. I think that's fair, but I do think part of being, like, a franchise and a general manager is, like, assessing the risk. Totally.

And, like, creating some sort of injury profile. And the thing we were saying going into this season was the pace plus Rajan Rondo, his age, LeBron's age, some of the other veterans, plus like the injury just scares that Lonzo has had throughout his career. There was a lot of risk here, and it just seems like the dice always came up against them. Plus the amount of time LeBron had been on the court the year before. This guy played the most minutes of any NBA player last season at 33 and in the playoffs. Right. And a full playoffs.

So it took a heroic feat just to get the Cavs to where they were last year. You can't expect that to continue. It's interesting. I wonder what would have changed this season the most. So if we took out, if we like Madlib the Lakers and we took out like one thing and switched in something else, maybe a more experienced coach, maybe a front office that put its foot down or a bench. Honestly, I think it would be the groin injury because at that time they were actually

looking pretty good. Yeah. So I looked last night when he was out. Yeah. When he went down on Christmas, they were six in the standings. Yeah, they were fine. They were going to end up right there. If there's no injury and you replicate the 82 games that he played last season,

I think even with all the other injuries, I think they make the playoffs. So I think that's the biggest thing for me. I mean, if we take out all the injuries too, like Lanzas especially. Sure, of course, yes. I think it's something that I was listening, when I was listening to the broadcast yesterday, I don't think we talk enough about how the things that now we take for granted

all the sudden from the Lakers. like we're no longer in awe of Lonzo's defense which is like I mean fine because it's been a while since we've realized that like he can be a good help on defense but at the same time all of a sudden that is like the most important thing for their defense you know the announcers are talking like it's make a break which is like whereas like his rookie season we weren't even sure you could play defense it's been a really good like past month for Lonzo ball

I feel like he's made out the best from this like terrible stretch that they're having because it realized like what like it's hard to quantify how he impacts a game, but it does feel like he has been missed. And I think that's big going forward, especially if you're trying to determine which of these guys you're going to ultimately get rid of, because you're probably going to get rid of some of them at some point for a star player. Yeah. I mean, I think that like LeBron and Rondo on the core is like a minus, I don't even know what, but it's not great. And so like imagine just putting Rondo, I mean, Lonzo in the Rondo role more or giving more of those minutes. Then it changes a lot of things,

I think. And Lonzo and LeBron were playing really well of each other. Can we talk about Rondo for a second? How our guy decided once he checked out of the game to sit closer to Tuchains than to Luke Walton or guy Mo Wagner. Yeah, but Tuchins gave LeBron a chain. Like, wouldn't you want to be near him just in case? Like he was feeling like that. He wasn't sure.

A third chain. I was wondering, like, what would be harder for me to accomplish? hitting over 32,000 points in a WMBA career that I haven't started yet or like making enough money to one day afford one of those chains and I still haven't decided. But two chains, if you're out there, if you're a group chat fan. If you have three chains. Tell me what it takes. For what it's worth, Rondo says that he has done that in other games this season.

Like he apparently likes sitting in the court side seats. What? What does that mean? You're already court side. Yeah. Just like, I guess the fan court says, I'm not out here trying to be the fan. He says when they're open.

He likes to go and sit them. Because he likes the perspective? I have no idea. I'm not, I'm just a messenger here. I don't, it's a weird thing. I just feel like I needed to say that because there was a quote that he had yesterday. I have to say the camera work by ESPN was particularly good there because you could just hear the

Curb Your Enthusiasm theme song being played as they zoomed out to get like the broad view of what was happening. I don't know. No, Rondo does have a way of making a point without verbalizing it. Sure. It did seem like that, but I guess if he's done this before, it just makes it. It just brings up the point like, why is he doing this to begin with? Actually, remember that one picture where LeBron is like removed from the team?

Sure. That was during the 42 point loss to the Pacers. Rondo was sitting in one of the quartets. Was he? Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, somebody treated out last night and you saw it. He's like on the other side of the bench.

Maybe one of these. Young Lakers just as like terrible B.O. Wow. You know, they're young. Young guys and their hygiene. They don't really have it figured out yet. Hello? Brought to you by Old Spice.

Here's my conspiracy theory. Let's go. Rondo is secretly laying the groundwork to ultimately take over his head coach. Wow. I cannot wait for when Rondo's a coach. I think he's great. I think he's going to be one eventually. He has just the right amount of

like constant resentment but also like he's very encouraging. Yeah. I feel a dad and God. Wow, this is not real. But it does seem like at some point we're going to have to replace the quality. At the beginning of the season, like when there was still hope

and people were happy, like Rhonda was like up from his seat and like sort of coaching guys on the floor. So, yeah, there you go. Coach on the floor. Yeah. That's great. Coach on the floor. Do we think, well, I guess we don't think that Ronald's going to be a good coach for the Lakers next season.

But do we think perhaps someone else would do a better job with the Lakers than Luke Walton is done? What do you mean? Yeah, of course. I don't know if that's true. Luke Walton is. He's a nice guy. I like him. I'm not going to be the good guy.

If it takes 15 seconds to explain their offense, like, no. No, they don't have like. Next. He's complete. Like, like. Much like the young players on the team, he has had trouble, like, adjusting to what has happened. Wouldn't you add LeBron to a team and all that comes with that? And you wonder how assertive he would be if he was going into his third year with a coach and he didn't have the lights, you know, that follow having LeBron James.

And then actually having LeBron James in the huddle and Rondo to some extent. But, yeah, I just, it's not going to happen for him here. He needs to go coach a young, up and another young, up and coming team and sort of like, because he would do well with that he works well with the young players it's just the situation like went

like 80 miles an hour and he was still trying to go like 35 you know it's not gonna work yeah he was a good coach for last year's Lakers he's just not particularly suited probably to coach a LeBron team but I do think as we're looking at

potential like replacements I often find that they should find a guy who can satisfy the young players more than LeBron because if we're just saying that LeBron is this constant you can kind of stick them into any situation. I think what they actually need is just better player development.

I think what they need is guys who could like find the best in Kyle Kuzma, maybe activate them a little bit more on defense to say to Alonzo Ball like this is how we're going to use you in unique and creative ways. I don't know. I often... Maybe hire a shooting coach even? Maybe that would help.

It feels almost like you need like the next spread offense and like the Sean McVeigh type rather than some sort of hard-nosed Tom Tibido type. Yeah, you almost sort of need like the dream coach made in a lab that can do that with the young guys but also like have the respect from LeBron, you know?

Right. And that's, I don't know who that is. Do we think that Jason Kidd? Because he's the guy that keeps getting brought up would be that. I think that would be a disaster. I will say out of the options that have been floated out there, he's not as bad as some other options. He's really not.

Like I wrote about this all the names that have been mentioned and or just, you know, in relation to him. And a lot of them are just, you know, past guys who have been associated with him, who have flamed out of the league as coaches for reasons. You know, there's also Tailu, and that's interesting. But I just don't think it's right for the situation. I think that they need someone who is proven, proven as a developmental coach, like you said, but not proven to the degree that he can't take a step back.

They need the perfect mix for a LeBron team. my dream is Cal Party That would help recruiting That would help their recruiting That would help their development LeBron could still Run stuff in-game

Because Cal's not a good in-game coach But Seriously you need someone who's going to Unite people but is also like an adult What are they called Cal's offense? It's basically just attack from The wings It's motion or like dribble

drive. I forgot what it was, but it was just like a fancy word for this attack and don't shoot threes. It's very difficult and that's why I think this is sort of an impossible situation for whoever comes in there because you're trying to do those two things at once and you know to win with a LeBron led team you have to

sort of systemize around him which is sort of what the Cavs did but the problem is that because the roster is not you know some sort of like veteran type player and sort of,

it's more young guys trying to build up. You do have to give them also an identity of sorts and in a system. So those things

are constantly going to be clashing. So I don't know what the solution. I mean, the solution here is you trade everybody for Anthony Davis. Yeah, that is the

caveat. Is that like, you don't really need a development of a coach when you trade all these guys away. Right. You probably need to

pick your coach based on who would be best with Anthony Davis than LeBron James. Is that going to happen? Like, that's... Well, I think, you know,

I think we are getting to a point where if Kyrie leaves and the Celtics look at their roster and it's like do we trade everybody for Davis and then just get left with the year with Davis. There's a lot of risk involved there. I think there is a non-zero possibility where they don't get in the mix for Davis because it just doesn't make sense long term and all of a sudden the Lakers package is the best one. I also think Brandon Ingram has played well enough to I guess get into the Tatum zone. He's done them a favor. Yeah. He's done them in a He's been really good.

Bobby wants me to point out that LeBron does not have any established relationship that we know with Cal, but he does with Coach K, which you and I were talking about Justin. Right. Yes, because you wrote about this on the site. But Coach K is not leaving college. Where I think that Cal would is because now the age might change. You know, everything might change with the NCAA.

One and done might be no more. Which is really like, I'm sorry, dude. That's all he has anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whereas Coach K could revert. He's a good. have coach. I like the idea of Mike Brown coming back and in his post-warriors sort of era now.

Although they did the Cavs hired Mike Brown right before LeBron left and we're stuck with Mike Brown and then got rid of him pretty quickly. I feel like LeBron would respect Mike Brown though for one. Yeah. And also like I said, just sort of being around the Warriors, not that they're going to play like the Warriors, but there's something you must learn through osmosis there that will that should help you with your next job. And yeah, I think that would, if I had to pick one among this bunch that we listed, I mean, Monty Williams is kind of interesting too, but I just don't know if that's even in the picture. The list Paul was talking about, which we have down is Jason Kidd. Monty would be great. Tyloom, Mark Jackson, Mike Brown, Jerry Stackhouse, who played with LeBron

briefly in Miami, only seven games, Monty Williams, Earl Watson, who's a clutch client. I love that. Joanne Howard, also a heat guy. Jerry Stackhouse is good Jerry Stackhouse But he's just like he's coming up Still from like He's he's in a system with the Grizzies now And he was with the Raptors G-League

So I don't know if that's You know something you want to try to do I know that Jason Kidd has been kind of It's become almost like a little bit of a joke now Yeah but where just said Recently I saw that someone said he was They thought he was coming back into the league soon Oh I didn't see that

Let me look at him I think he kind of gets a bad rap I think he had a bad end to his Milwaukee Bucks tenure. But I think leading into that, he was kind of one of the more, he was the young, smart guy in the mix. He made that Nets team. He went small at a time when people weren't really going small. He kind of, he encouraged Janus to, like, embrace his freakishness.

Well, he also let, he recognized that Janus should be allowed to do his thing. Yeah. For all that the Buck's offense was just a disaster. he was very much like not trying to get in the way of letting him run transition offense and do what he does best and capitalize off of it. And when you have someone who can do something like that, it's at least a positive to see that he's not trying to put something around him. With that being said, he also then couldn't do anything with any of his teammates.

Yeah. I mean, the thing is the thing about that is that you look at a coach like Mike Boodenholster who comes in and sort of establishes that system. that's the system made for the modern NBA and that Jason Kidd couldn't do that or didn't even think about doing that. It's an indictment, I think, in terms of how he wants to

figure out the Lakers. I mean, they're just such a confusing team, obviously because we don't know what they're going to look like in a year, but also because they just have so many conflicting things right now about stylistically that I don't even know how you would go about coaching them. Like, how do you do that?

Would you trade a first for pop? Oh, God. I'd trade anything for pop. I mean, I think he used to be at Pomona, which is in the area. Pop. Yeah. Pomona is not in the area. Pomona College?

It's like far away. Well, compared to like San Antonio. Okay, sure. Like, he could take like a weekend trip to go like, sip some wines with his former assistance or something like that. All right. Yeah, sure. Local connection.

We do it all the time with like Kauai and some of these free agents. Yeah, Kwai like buys a house in San Diego and we're like, he bought a house in right, which is. Southern California. hours away. To be honest, that commute is like still shorter than Palos. T-cha. That's true. All right, that's enough about talking about the Lakers. We're going to get some other teams in the second half of the show, just kind of teams that are kind of making some noise coming down the stretch here. But first, I want to talk about tonight's games. It's a really

interesting slate. There's only two games tonight. It was starting off with the Pacers and the Bucs on T&T at 5 p.m. Pacific. It's a really interesting one just because I've been fascinated by the Milwaukee Bucks here. I think that they've proven, despite all of our kind of concerns and criticisms, that they are legit. And I wonder if we're going to look back on the situation and they're going to

be kind of a sleeping giant, sort of like the Warriors were before they took off. And then the Pacers, they've slowly kind of and quietly kept hold of that three seed, even though the Sixers kind of loaded up the deadline and the Celtics obviously have all this talent. So I think it's a really interesting

clash of two teams. And, you know, kind of differently constructed but interesting in their own ways. And that's tonight at 5 p.m. Pacific on TNT. We're going to make that our watch of the night. And remember if you want to watch every NBA game subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com

or your local cable or satellite provider. Today's episode of the Ringer MBA show is brought to you by Deezis and Mero, the all-new weekly late-night talk show show that's available now on showtime. Tune in to watch the Bronx's own Deasus Nice and the Kid Mero bring their illustrious take on current events, politics, sports, and pop culture.

All while talking spicy with the week's hottest celebrity guests, quick-wood and fun, the duo will riff off the cuff and get the Twitter sphere buzzing. New episodes of Deezis and Mero drop every Thursday at 11 p.m. only on showtime. All right, we're back. We're going to talk about some other teams that aren't at the Lakers for once. There's this kind of schick on the Orlando Magic broadcast that myself and Danny Chow, my office mate like to like to kind of talk about

and it's called is this anything I love it and it's basically they put something up there and they just talk about it and that's it we get a clear decision at the end is it like yes or no

is this anything or is it more we don't have to be that concrete I want to explore all the different permutations yes shop blocking is this anything but no

you guys have been in writing about a lot of the other non-lebron team. So I feel like this is a good opportunity to kind of get a glimpse of where the league is as we reached his final stretch. The big one probably is probably the Warriors. They've hit a little bit of a skid here. They've lost three or the past four to Marcus Cousins. Believe it or not, does not look good on defense. I don't know. Is this any...

Why, we're just taking the bit. All right. No, of course it's not anything because they're going to win the title. Okay, can I stop you right there? Wow, you were ready for this. No, because this has been percolating for me. I think that I'm a little fatigued with Warriors' fatalism. This idea that, like, something can't get in their way.

Just in the last conference semifinals, they had to go to a game seven with one of the best rosters in history. No, that's fair. And I do think that we are not thinking about the possibility enough of, like, this is how the end of the beginning of the end happens, you know? with like adding to Marcus and being like, oh, we're like five all-stars now.

We're not thinking about that enough? What I'm saying is that we're maybe not giving enough thought to that possibility of that. Yeah. Like, I'm agreeing with Justin. Like, I do like personally, if you ask me to like bet money on it or whatever,

like I would say like, yeah, the Warriors are going to win the title. But yeah, I mean. Powell's saying that we all die eventually. Yeah. No one.

It will soon be over. Yeah, I don't know. Like there's just a lot of weird things happening with like the way that it feels to watch a Warriors game now too Which is like sometimes you at least lately like They just seem a little disinterested which it feels normal But I think in the context of the way the season was sort of sold to us if you will Was like oh, but he's going to come back and they're going to be energized

And you're going to just rip through the second half of the season Yeah, hasn't really happened And to that point Anthony Slater had a piece that went up after that Celtics loss and Anthony Slater works for The Athletic. I think he's one of the best beat writers in the country and it was basically like he was pointing out that Steph said something like we should

kind of be better than this now. This is the point of the season where we should really be engaged and start showing like incline and defensive efficiency and his point was basically Steph doesn't really say things just to say them and I think that's really important. Whereas like that's kind of

been different with Steve Kerr who has dropped certain words and moods to the media before with very clear purposes and do you guys know I went to Louisville

Rick Bettino used to this all the time there's just certain coaches who will say things to the media on purpose so your players will hear them yeah whereas and so Kerr is one of those coaches

that came up very recently after the Celtics loss when a reporter asked Kevin Durant about their anger or lack of anger and Kevin Durant was just, I'm so over him.

Yes, he was very prickly. And we should probably point out that the person who asked that was Ethan George Strauss, who Kevin Durant went at in full force a couple weeks ago because Ethan's writing a book. And Ethan wrote a story that was kind of hinting at how Durant is kind of checked out. Because there might already be like this groundmark where people assume he's going to New York. Right. And then it's like, of course, the way to show people you're not checked out is to be super grumpy about what your coach is saying. Right. I don't remember the exact question that he asked,

but Durant's answer was, I thought we move off of joy. Now anger, I disagree with that one, saying he disagrees with what Kerr was saying about what they were missing or... Right. Well, the thing is,

I think Kerr was talking about specifically about playing with anger on defense. And then the way, the way, Durant took the question was more like, oh, wait, I thought we were supposed to play with joy, but now we want to play with anger.

It was like, how do those things come out? She's like a very needlessly petty kind of sort of response. Right. It doesn't matter what, that's why, like, it doesn't even matter what the quote was, what the word was, what Kerr was saying about if they need joy or if they need anger or what they need. Because if you're saying that they need some emotion, at the end of the day, you're saying that we're not playing with enough. Yeah, which is very clear when you watch them as of late. And so your response is to publicly have attitude with what your coach is saying and then be upset with the media when they're in. that there's some kind of discord or that you've checked out.

Yeah. I think if you watch the video of it, it does seem like Durant is only just trying to dunk on Ethan, which I love Ethan. I think he's great at what he does. But, like, it just very clearly seems like there's some discord there that's coloring a lot of what's going on. I think it's really funny that recently it's been so much of Durant and Kyrie being so pissed about everyone talking about where they are going, that they're just only drawing more attention to themselves.

Have you guys ever seen that episode of The Office when Aaron and Andy start dating and they don't want anyone to know and they go to like a happy hour or something and they keep yelling about it being private and they start like making out with other people so nobody knows that they're dating but nobody's checking on the dating. That's exactly what this is with their Nick's free agency rumors. Exactly. I mean, it's such a good point because they don't have to be this public leaning into this, right? they're by trying to lean away from it they're almost they're leaning into it more it's so weird because like they could just be like well I'm focused about

our season here and like tonight's game or whatever about and that's all I'm gonna talk about and it's like okay and then like and then what happens is that it doesn't build up to be to get to a point where we look at them interacting after a game and sort of like all read into it like you know what I'm saying this is not

a one off kind of thing it's like this has been building up because of the way they have treated this situation. Yeah, and just speaking about like the remainder of the season into the playoffs, I would argue that DeMarcus Cousins in particular should not play with any emotion, like less emotion that he has been playing with because he just gets mad at guys and it completely derails the situation. And I think this is what we were worried about going into this whole Cousins experiment. It went really well from the start. Cousins played like the All-Star

self, especially on offense. It just looked like they were going to be unbeatable as soon as he got back. But now all of a sudden, you're starting to see all the complications that come along with cousins. He's picking up the technicals. He's arguing with people. He's shoving people. And on defense, it seems like it's really derailing there. Dremon stood up for him and was basically like, it's not a cousin's issue. It's an all of us issue.

And I think there is some truth to that. But I think there are specific things that they need to do in order to cover for cousins that I don't think you want to be doing at this point in the season. To Steph's point, you should be coming, you should be. like finding nuance and just really crossing the T's and doting the eyes. You shouldn't be trying to just work a guy into what you do. You maybe shouldn't have the

need to sign Andrew Rogan. Exactly. You shouldn't... Well, I think that the solution to not letting cousins, you know, the off the court attitude, like whatever, those kind of thing issues affect the team is not needing him as much. But they just signed

Bogot. You know what I mean? Like they're obviously like he shouldn't be that important to team because then that does play into it. Yeah, boge was in Australia. Yeah. Then all the sudden. Yeah, season's over. Yeah, seasons over.

All of a sudden you have, uh, Jemond, who at certain times has been unhappy with the team this season. Durant, who at certain times has been unhappy with the team this season. Whatever is going on with boogie. Clay, who, uh, is it for a age of this summer. Like dogs? Yeah. Like dogs.

Yeah. It's just chilling. And then you have stuff who's like, I think that we should probably. do a little examination on what's going on here. Yeah, Steph's, I guess, the adult in the room. Yeah. Is the way that can be read? I don't know. I think obviously there's a lot of good there,

but I think there are certain things that you do, like you pull the thread a little bit and all of a sudden it doesn't look as solid. For sure. As it should be. I think the main concern I had with the cousin sign to begin with is it does feel like they're one injury away from being like a little too close to the edge. We saw that last

postseason where Iguodala doesn't seem right at time, Steph obviously has a tendency to get little dings And you just don't have the wing depth that you probably should have And now you're looking at Jacob Evans Or are some of these other guys that would need to step up And it's just like that's not the position you want to be in Depth's always been their trade-off

Yeah And it will be that way until this dynasty ends Because they simply can't afford To have depth with the Stars that they've signed Yeah for sure I mean as the dynasty has gone along That that seems to be getting worse

Because now we have to pay guys and what not, but also just like, it's, it's sort of harder to fit guys in, especially on a short timeline, like with Bogot, like, how they're going to try to do with Bogud? But yeah, I mean, like... Yeah, what kind of minutes do we seriously see Bogot getting? No, I mean, he's like, 50. Yeah, I mean, they were looking at Robin Lopez, too, before, but he never got bought out. So I do think they need, like, a big to toss in there, but it does feel like...

The Bulls are so wrong for that. They're so... No, I respect it. You respect it? Bulls have been feisty lately. Look, if Robin was like, I want to get out. like, please, like, he hasn't said that, though. I don't believe.

I know. I know. Well, he, he, before the trade did. His agent was trying. Yeah. His agent was trying. Oh, okay. Well, yeah.

He probably would like to play for the Warriors. He took less minutes for them as they were trying to figure out their young players. I mean, I respect not getting the buyout, though. Because I always see guys, like, taking a pay cut in order to go chase money. I'm like. Yeah. Like, two million on table. I'm not doing that.

Like, the Spurs are like a perfectly fine team. You're going to go, like, one round. deeper in the playoffs? I think that that was a mutual way. Wow. Some shamed, there's an inadvertent shade at the bucks right there. I've seen a lot of things, and I wonder why more people aren't talking about that being something that actually helped us spurs too. Oh, that they just don't have to

pretend to give minutes the power? Yeah. Well, now they also have two and a half million. Yeah. More minutes for a Jacob. A guy? I don't know. Great stuff. Let's talk about the team on the other end of that Warriors' loss of the Celtics.

it seems like things are a little bit better. They seem better, especially when Kyrie sits like he did the other night against the Kings. Right, which is like, is it better? Because my guy's going to come back. Well, is this anything? I mean, is this anything? But specifically I want to talk about Gordon Hayward. Wait, let's all go through and say if we think the warrior is struggling is anything.

I'm going to say no. I'd say yes. I would say no. Okay. because I believe that we should focus on the negatives constantly Gordon Hayward Is he back?

He's been fine to where he's like not terrible How's that? Are we just gonna act like He almost didn't throw the game last night By fouling Buddy? Right, so he foul Buddy healed for three Which put them in a really bad situation

He made all three Just amazing Just amazing just... Gordon-Hawr team is. He hit the game win. Then on the other end, Gordon Hayward,

I think brought it down the length of the court and hit a fall away for the go-ahead bucket. This is good because it's like confidence building. You know what I'm saying?

Like, that's all... It's not really about... Personally, I think the Celtics are like... Like them being the fourth or fifth seed in the east. Third, fourth or fifth, and it is like the exact kind of team

they should be. There's way too much like... you know, sort of like fluctuation to think about them as like a top two team in the East. But I think that if they're in that three to five range, that's who they should be. But. So you're saying that they should lean into the nobody believes in us sort of thing that spurred them last year. I don't even want to say that. I'm just saying like we need to stop like projecting them as like the team we thought they would be before the season.

I see. Like this is just who they are. So let's focus on now, which is hey, we're gaining confidence. And then maybe being a factor in the playoffs. I think, well, so last night when he was doing the post-game interview, I asked the question in Slack, like how many, when's last time I made a post-game

interview? And I don't know what happened after the Warriors win. So kind of the on-camera walk-off interview? That is very much, like that even those little things are confidence boosters. You know, they are picking you as the player of the game, a player that won the game.

And the more of those things start to happen to him again, I think also will play into him getting his confidence. back. But I just think there's like such an obvious ceiling on it. Yeah. It does seem like at times that he's hesitant. And I guess I would be too if like you had that pretty tragic fall. And I wonder if he's just he's hesitant toward contact or what it is specifically. He's also as I wrote in our outline a bit of a thick boy now. Like looking, looking a little too hefty. And I wonder if it's the type of thing where he worked too much,

he worked out too much, got too big, and it almost seems, got too swall, and almost doesn't, like, isn't as fluid of an athlete as a result. There are a couple thick boys on the Celtics. Yeah? Marcus Mark. Well, I mean, 15.

I guess, like, in Boston, like, what are you going to do in the winter, just working out and even clam chowder? Maybe. Clen chowder. Working out in sweatshirt, cutoffs, headbands. That's what my life was like in New England.

There you go. eating clam chowder. So much clam chowder. I don't really know anything. I'm out of chocolate. A lot of chippole. Yeah? Well, you know, Connecticut only has so many things.

I mean, granted, these are professional athletes who probably have chefs. I don't know if I don't know if I totally get what you're saying in terms of like he worked out too much. Well, I think he's carrying too much weight. Like he's not right enough. Yeah, it's starting to affect his performance. You know, I'm really not sure. I can't differentiate between if that's what makes him look restrictive or if he's actually just. kind of a hesitant guy now on the court.

I think it's a lot of it. I mean, it is, there's definitely a difference. But I'm not sure so much if it, he just doesn't, he doesn't seem as light, but he also doesn't seem as aggressive, which kind of makes him seem a little bit heavier. Yeah, he lacks the explosiveness. He's had sort of built for himself in Utah. You know what I'm saying? It's explosiveness and you're also like, but are you just timid?

Well, I think it's a combination of being timid and then being like, maybe like fully physically. like there. Strengthwise. Just strength wise. Because he's healthy but just strength wise but just strength wise.

And I think that's maybe where sort of the thickness come in that he's like he looks a little softer because he's just like kind of this like this person who lacks confidence

and doesn't have that strength. I think I'm speaking specifically of going into the season he had this interview where he did that documentary. Remember this? Like it was like a multi-part documentary with a

believe the athletic, and he was basically like, I'm not going to be the same player. He says, I'm going to be a different player. And I think part of that he admitted, like, he put on some weight. I don't know. Maybe it's just he looks different and green, too. There's also that possibility. Might be the eyes playing tricks on you. But I don't know.

I think, I guess the overall point is, well, other than the fact that I just wanted to use the word thick a bunch of times, he's kind of the inflection point with them. He does seem like he is either going to take them far. whether then we assume they're going to go at this point or he might potentially drag them down. It's been very, yeah, but that's very much Brad Stevens' decision to make him a potential X-Factor. You know what I mean? He's still put that on him. It's kind of what we said all season. Like, he had a chance to pick certain guys who it seemed to be working for.

And he still kind of decided to experiment with everyone. So now, yeah, he is. He could be their X-factor. I just wouldn't. Yeah. It kind of goes back to your Ben Simmons thing where you just don't want people to experiment during the regular season.

God. We did not need to get into that again. Still don't understand the take, by the way. Oh, I just realized what you're talking about. Great. Well, we'll talk about it after. All right. But I guess in a first round series with the Sixers,

no. No? No, Bueno. I would lean Sixers as a bit. only for the talent. They have more talent. I think top-end talent. So we're basically saying

that the Celtics are a first round out? I'm saying we should not like be closed-minded to that possibility. Open your mind. What I'm saying. Right. All right. Let's move on here.

Haley, you wrote about the Mavericks last night. Yes. And how close they're getting to the edge of just tanking infamy right now. Yeah. Yes.

which is so interesting. So right now, after a loss to the wizards, the Mavericks have the seventh worst. So let's say that they're in the seventh lottery spot, seventh worst record. So in the sixth spot is the Grizzlies who just beat the Mavericks. And also, they have to play twice again.

They play their third to last game and their fourth last game, are both against the Grizzlies. So if the Mavericks can move into that spot and kick them out, they move up to having a 29.4% chance of landing a top four pick. Pretty good. Which means that they keep their pick that they traded to Atlanta over the summer that was top five protected as part of the deal that got Luca Donchich, which would be insane. That would be, so then they would also have to give instead. It's not like then they would just get the pick.

they would give Atlanta their 2020 first round pick, but that's also top five protected. So it's just kind of interesting. The best part of this all to me is that last year, Mark Cuban was the most open owner about tanking. He said on a podcast that they were tanking and that he told members of the team why it was best for the team, which is something that a line that we usually don't think gets crossed.

Right. we always assume that it is ownership and the front office, making decisions that will directly affect how well the roster can play and how it can perform. But we never think that an owner is telling coaches to throw a game or why it's best that they sit. The assumption is always that it doesn't trickle into the locker room. Right, because that's not how these guys who have made their careers being competitive operate. So anyway, last year he got in trouble for saying that he was tanking, that that that was his mission on purpose to lose. To Dr. Jay, I believe. To Dr. Jay on Dr. Jay's podcast.

Yeah, it's an important detail. And then that's not Cuban directly, but owners with Cuban's mindset are why the NBA knew for a long time. It had to reform the lottery. And so it did last year. And it flattened the odds out. And so it said, look, you can lose all. you want, but even if you lose the most in the league, there are no guarantees anymore, right? Or there are less guarantees of certain spots. Okay. And now because of those flattened odds,

the Mavericks who are not the worst record or the second worst record or the third worst record, have a chance of keeping their pick in what was probably the best draft night trade. I see what you're saying. But like... If they get their pick back, then that is... It's a huge win. No, yeah, for sure. For sure. I don't, so they have to get into the top five. Dallas is now tied for the seventh worst record, right?

Giving the team a 29.4% chance of landing a top four pick. Okay, but if it bumps Memphis, then the odds of keeping its pick go to 37.2%. That's almost 40%. Yeah. No, that's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. For a team that has such a bright future ahead of them, that's insane. That echoes, like, what we were talking about with Boston last year.

Right. I think the larger point that's kind of interesting to me about the flat nods and I think Darrell Mori talked about this on Zach Lowe's podcast which is just like that is kind of

at least eliminated like the hardcore tanking of like except for the Knicks except for the next but trying to get to that like between those two three those three teams

that are there Nick's Sons and Cabs it really doesn't matter right or they're and they're going to have the same odds so at least on that sense it's I think it's like worked

in a weird way. Yeah, there seems to be this momentum that the worst teams aren't as bad even though the records are still pretty bad. I would push back on that slightly just because the Cavs have clearly just jettison every useful thing except for Kevin Love

who was hurt and they couldn't even do that. The Knicks have completely bottomed out and the Sons, whether or not it was conscious or not, have just been completely incompetent. Right. Well, to be clear, this is sort of like a band-aid. You know what I'm saying? It's not really like, I don't personally,

I don't feel like it's like a long-term solution. It's going to take us a couple of years to see how it plays out with the teams in the middle like the Mavericks. Yeah. And the Grizzlies who, you know, seem to just, I don't know if you want to say decide earlier. Well, yeah, we can say that because they traded Marcosal earlier. That it was in their best, you know, they weren't going to push for it anymore. Right. So it depends.

Like now our team's going to make that decision earlier, teams that maybe wouldn't have had the incentive to lose so hard before. Yeah. I think it's one of the criticism. of the new system when it first came out was that maybe it chilled tanking in the very lowest parts which if we're being completely honest is probably all the NBA wants to avoid

the black eye of teams just like winning 10 games a season for instance but what seems to be happening is it just moved the tankers up a level so now you have a team like the Mavs trying to get into that four whereas otherwise I don't know if they would try to run for

like push for the playoffs But at the very least, maybe they wouldn't be trying to bottom-mow. Right. There will always be a big benefit. I do not think that the Mavs are tanking. Yeah, I mean, they're still trying to look down there. But now I think they definitely should. I think it was implicit in the move they made for Christops. I think it was baked into that.

It's like, if you're going to give Chris Stops and not play him, you're not going to win games. There's kind of an acceptance that like, we're just going to do this next year. Yes. I mean, that's kind of interesting because that's also the line is, you know, when it isn't up to your players and your coaches. and it's kind of the front office decisions, what is tanking and what is just saying, this isn't our year, you know, the line kind of fizzles.

But I don't think that the Mavs are traditional, hardcore hawks tanking, you know? But I think that now they definitely should. That would be the most remarkable, full circle moment if they got this draft pick. Yeah. I mean, a top five draft pick in a trade that brought, you Luca Donchich.

Yeah, I do wonder down the stretch if we'll start to see teams who just aren't going to make the playoffs, a team like Washington, let's see how hard they tank or how hard they put their foot on the gas in terms of like just. I mean, Washington is really interesting because they are the place right behind Dallas, right? Yeah. They are still making a push for the playoffs and very much could make it in the east. It's still possible. It's still possible. There are three games back, I think. If there are two spots back, three games back.

Three games, yep. So that's kind of fascinating. Like, you're just, you're closer to everything. It's just not, they aren't such polar opposites anymore. Yeah. Well, I did say before that perhaps tanking, it just moved up a level. It does seem like a lot of the teams in that mix are still either going for it or remaining competitive. Even the Hawks have shown a lot.

I'd be interested to see how it affects pick protections in trades going forward if the Mavs can hang on to this. That's interesting. Like maybe just top three instead of. It would totally make you rethink things. Yeah, because there are a lot more teams, like you said, kind of still weirdly in that playoff mix. Not a lot if we're being honest with ourselves, but like you said, teams that are competitive still.

Yeah. So before we go, I guess we have to answer the question. Is this anything? Yes. It's a thing. Yes. For future implications for the Mavs and the league and the system and the reform.

And just Cuban getting the last lap, which is so funny. I think it's not a thing. but I don't think they're going to keep it. I don't think they're going to get the pick. Yeah, if we're talking about will they actually keep the pick? Yeah. I think the odds are against them.

But I think it's the right move. I don't think they'll get both of those games against two Grizzlies and that's kind of crucial. There you go. Silt Luca. Still get Luca. Still get KP. Have 30 million in cast days as a summer.

Sit Luca is what I'm saying. Oh, sit Luca. Sick cliber. He's the guy there. We have Maxed Glaver. Too many dunks. Dwight Powell. Dirk's, uh,

don't let Dwight Powell shoot any more threes. Dirk had this quote where he's like, my kid really likes Maxie Claver and Dwight Powell because they dunk a lot. It's like, yeah. It's a real come to Facebook. Yeah, love dunks. All right, that's it for this week,

for Haley, for Paulo, for Bobby, and for me. We will see you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.