The Ringer NBA Show - Lessons From the 2016 NBA Draft | The Corner 3 (Ep. 350)

Episode Date: December 7, 2018

We review some of the Houston Rockets’ biggest problems and ask whether they could be remedied with a Kevin Love trade (1:30). Then we take a look back at the lessons we learned from the 2016 draft (25:00), before throwing an outlet pass to this weekend’s games (37:18). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, Danny Chau Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys, it's Liz Kelly. All month long, The Ringer will be breaking down 2018's highs and lows in music, pop culture, sports, TV, and film. Some of the things we've hit so far are the best TV show episodes and the best rap albums of the year. And this week, we are writing about the best performances and the 10 best action movies of 2018. Plus, we'll be reacting to both the Golden Globes and Grammy nominations on the site. You can check all of these things out on The Ringer.com. Welcome to the Ringer MBA show. This is The Corner 3.

I'm Kevin O'Connor and joining me here in Los Angeles. It's Ringer Associate Editor Danny Chow. I'm here. Let's do this. From Dallas, Texas. It's Ringer staff writer, John Sharks. I'm coming to you live from the new Ringer Dallas Bureau. Yeah. Congrats, John.

John, yeah. Recently closed in on a house out in Dallas. This is great. I recently mean last night. Pod never sleeps. So we're still doing it. It's actually one of the reasons why we're recording on Friday morning instead of Thursday afternoon like usual,

We're recording this at 9.11 a.m. on Friday, December 7th. Six teams played last night on Thursday. The night ended with Utah Jazz, destroying the Houston Rockets 1-18-99. And that was despite Rudy Gobert getting ejected three minutes in the game for swatting the powder on the table and then arguing with the refs from the bench. Oh, that was hilarious, Danny, wasn't it? I swear, like, the one time we were able to discuss the Thursday games and they are complete garbage. Oh, my goodness. They're complete garbage.

All three of them. Yeah. I mean, where do we start? All season long, Houston's defense has been the conversation. They were seventh ranked last year. Now they're the fifth worst. They stunk last night. You know, hemorrhage points to Utah Jazz.

Their offense is still ranked ninth, but it's not number one like it was last year. And I thought last night without Gobert playing, only scoring 91 points on the 92.9 points for one of her possessions. That was startling. What did Utah do last night to neutralize Houston? They pretty much stuck to their game plan, right? they had a big drop back and they defended the three well. And that's just, it was astounding because the Rockets are normally accustomed to playing this jazz team, no matter who's on the court.

They couldn't do anything yesterday. John, what's the difference this year with that Houston offense? I mean, it just seems to me like Chris Paul. Like, they need so much from Hardin and Paul. And if Chris Paul can't be like all-world, all-M-BIA point guard, like Hardin's still killing it. Hardin's still putting up crazy numbers. but just Chris Paul is getting older.

Yeah, last night's game, according to Synergy, the Houston Rockets scored 32 points on 43 pick and roll possessions. So that's 0.74 points per possession. That's horrible. And this entire season, that's the big difference with Houston's offense. They're ranked 20th in pick and roll scoring efficiency this season compared to fourth last year. They're not drawing as many fouls.

They're turning the wall over slightly more. They're obviously not shooting three-pointers as well this season either. They rank 24th on three-point percentage overall. this team on both ends of the floor, of course, their defense is problematic, but they need their pick and roll, to both your points, they need their pick and roll to be at an elite level

like it was last year. And like you said, John, I think part of that is Chris Paul. With him this season, it seems like he's lost a little bit of his great first step. I mean, this is his lowest true shooting percentage since he was 21,

since the second year in the league. Now is his year 14. That's probably the biggest concern for me, though I think he must be somewhat kind of pacing himself. Yeah, and it's not helping that Eric Gordon really isn't picking up any slack. You know, he's shooting probably his worst three-point percentage since he was on the Pelicans, I'm guessing. And that's left a lot of burden on Hardin, who is having a career season in terms of offensive numbers, in terms of offensive output.

But, you know, that's not something you want out of a team that, you know, was a game away from the finals last year. You mentioned a lot of the offensive burden. Forgive me, I forget who tweeted this out, but someone had a stat out there this week about how James Harden is shooting more pull-up threes than really anybody else in the league. And I looked it up this morning. I believe he has 214 attempted three-pointers off the dribble compared to 14, only 14 spot-up threes.

That is just insane. And like the last two years, it was like that, too, where I think around 75 to 80% of his three-pointers were off the dribble compared to off the catch. but right now, like nine out of ten of his shots from three are off the dribble. He's just having, guys aren't creating for him as much as they did last year. You look at the structure of their team, right? So their third and fourth best player, it's Gordon and Capella. And both those guys are complementary players, right?

They really can't become creators. And so it's just hardened in Paul. And if you're paying Chris Paul $40 million, there's not much room on your roster to get more creators. One of the things that's interesting, you know, regards to Chris Paul, earlier this week, He had a quote where he said, I'm still not that concerned. Somebody's going to beat us four out of seven times. I don't see that happening.

I think it's pretty easy to see a team beating them four out of seven times right now. Considering their flaws on offense, considering their horrific defense, it's not hard to see, Danny. Yeah, it's a really rigid, very structured offense and defense where you're basically asking all of your complimentary players to be complimentary players. Right now they are not complimentary.

And so therefore you have a huge problem. we talked pretty much all season about how, oh, you know, they're overhauling their defense, but, you know, they're having offensive woes too. You know, the numbers are still there, but in terms of execution and all of that, like at what point do you talk about a legitimate trade? How big are you talking here? Are you talking a big trade? I'm talking, you need to get someone at least on the, you know, a third option on a team type. Well, they want Jimmy Butler, of course. They made that offer with first round picks.

They made some variation with Eric Gordon. So clearly, Darry, anybody can recognize that the team has flaws and that they need to make a change. Jimmy Butler's already been traded. He's off the table. John, I'm curious. Do you think Kevin Love is a guy that they should go for

when he's eligible to be traded on January 24th next month? Is he somebody that makes sense for Houston to take a gamble on? Man, I got to see him play. You're already paying Chris so much money. And love's got a bad back and bad feet, and he's an older big who struggles. Bad knees. Yeah, I mean, those injuries don't really get better as you get older. I don't know that getting bringing love in because that pretty much locks you in going forward with love Paul Hardin.

I don't know you need that much. That's a big swing for the fences. I think I rather have auto. I've been saying that for all auto port and makes more sense for them than Kevin Love. Right. And yeah, you're looking at the types of players that Dan Tony is starting to warm. up to Daniel House, Gary Clark. They're, you know, wings with big, you know, capabilities.

And so you're looking at- Switchy, versatile, even though they can't defend right now on the event. Sure, it's largely theoretical. You get in a guy like Otto Porter who is basically the idealized version of what they could be. That makes a lot of sense. How do they do it? I think, though, going back on Paul's quote, I think, like what he's saying basically

is like, I can turn it back up when I need to. I think that's what he's saying. It's like, when it comes to the playoffs, I'm going to pace myself. We still have James, still got me. I think if Paul can go back to what he was in the playoffs, they're a pretty dangerous team,

even with this roster. Can he, though, John? I don't know. That's the question. I mean, you wrote a big article either last season or the year before, I forget where it was like small point guards like Chris Paul tend to fizzle out,

I believe if I'm right. That was last year. That was last season, right? So I, Chris Paul just looks slow. He looks old. I don't see the same burst that he had last season and you could easily say, oh, it's because he's dealing with the hamstring injury right now. Yeah, that's what ended last season for him.

That's what's nagged him for years as well. There's no guarantee that goes away. It could get worse. It could get slightly better. But I think it's unrealistic to expect Chris Paul to be Chris Paul at 100%. And even if he is at some point during the season, it gets back to the same thing. It's been every year for him. Can he translate it into April and May?

I don't know. I'm not sure if he can. So this is like slightly tangential, but I've been thinking about it for a couple days now, for some reason. If you switched Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry's, like, responsibilities on the respective teams,

what do you think would happen? That's an interesting question. I think Houston movie helps right now. Lowry's better than Paul right now. Yeah. Paul'd be awesome in Toronto. His job be so much easier. Yeah, because there's just,

on Toronto, I think Lowry has been blessed with having options at every single position. Up and down. Up and down, up and down the roster with the backups, with everything.

I don't know. I guess the real question, Danny, are you changing their paychecks too? I think Lauer gets like half as much as Paul. I think Lauerie's at 30 mil this year, actually. Oh, really?

I don't know that. I think he's expired, but half the years at least. Yeah. Right. Chris Paul, by the end of that deal, we'll be making double.

Like, do you, would you trust Lauri to turn it, turn it up? Because right now, his scoring has decreased obviously his assists have gone up by, you know, Miles. But would you trust him to kind of play that Chris Paul role where,

oh, he's going to have to like run a lot more pick and roll, shoot a lot more off the dribble, you know, create for himself? Yeah, I think that would be intriguing. Part of me wonders if it would, I don't want to say it's a wash, but I wonder if that wouldn't make enough of a difference for the team. Right. I make the same small point card question, right, with Lowry instead of Paul. I think in regards to Kevin Love, Houston ranks second worst,

and defensive rebounding percentage this year. Like, you know, Kevin Love obviously has its limitations on defense. But if you're Houston, you mentioned how they would get locked in, John, if they traded for Love. I think they're already locked in with Hardin and Paul. And maybe that's the type of risk you need to take where you're putting in a filler contracts. You're adding maybe a first round pick, you know, maybe one sweetener for Cleveland to dump that deal. And you know what? You're just saying, screw it.

We're going all in this year with Love, with Paul, with Hard. with Gordon, and we're going to see what happens, because you know what? We're, you know, our backs are against the wall anyway. We need to do something because there's no way this is going to work unless we do try something. I can tell you right now, no way works Kevin Love either. Like to me, like to me, that's like a low ceiling, low floor move. Yeah. Because like with Love's injury history, and then you seem against the Warriors like four years now.

Like you're still going to pay the Warriors in the playoffs. And I just don't see Love and Capella. I mean, they're inevitably going to have to play together. That's just not Dan Tony Ball. It's not. Alternatively, I heard there were some rumblings this week that Houston had interest in J.R. Smith from Cleveland. I heard New Orleans had interest in J.R. Smith as well.

And there's some stuff over the course of the summer or before the season that maybe Solomon Hill could be someone that could be moved. These guys, like these names are J.R. Smith of Solomon Hill. They're not doing anything for Houston. I feel like Kevin Love maybe can. Like it's a low-sailing move, like you said. said, John, but I think it's a little higher ceiling than J.R. Smith.

Well, how about this? If we're thinking, how about Spencer Dinwiddie? That's the kind of guy I'd rather see in Houston and Kevin Love. I think there's too much overlap. At least that he can defend. Can he? He's a big... Can he? More than Kevin Love? I mean, wait, were we just looking at like, I know, you know, the RPM numbers are flawed, but wasn't Dinwiddie, like, second to last? Oh, yeah, that's true. Defensive RPM? I just don't think, I mean, I remember years ago, it's my first time meeting

Brian Scaliburney, which. This story always comes to mind. And Scal just started rambling about defense. And he's like, it annoys me when people don't talk about defensive rebounding on defense. He's like, that's the most overlooked aspect of defense. It's not about man to man. It's not about man. It's not about man. Yeah, I can imagine why Scal said this.

It's like, if you're rebounding, the ball is what ends the possession. That's against you the ball on offense. And one thing we do know Kevin Love does in an elite level is rebound. And right now, Houston is one of the worst defensive rebounding teams on the the court. I think one of the reasons they've been worse is because Clint Capella is getting pulled to the perimeter, which pulls him away from the rim, which means he's not able to rebound as effectively, and it also neutralizes his room protection. Also, Kevin, if you trade for Kevin Love, you can bench PJ Tucker?

I don't know, man. Parker's one of their best player. I don't know. I'm just, I don't know what the solutions are. I think that's really what I'm saying. There's just not a lot of options for this team, and maybe Kevin Love is one of them if they want to take a grand risk that could end up really screwing them. But you know what? Maybe it helps them out a little bit. Scary.

One team that's been better as of late is the Boston Celtics. They beat the Knicks last night, 128 to 100. Since Thanksgiving. Danny, they have the number two offense. They're back. They're back. They have the number two offense since Thanksgiving. Gordon Hayward and Jalen Brown are now coming off the bench.

What's been different for this team over the last week plus? I mean, I think it's just putting the two Marcuses in the starting lineup, right? It's realizing that the best option, the best course of attack for this Celtics team, isn't necessarily putting the five best players, but putting your five best players in the best positions for them to succeed. Yeah, Danny, the interesting thing with Boston is you could argue that they're starting five right now. Is their best five? But hey, we're not quite as 100%.

Yeah, I should have said in a vacuum. Yeah, in a vacuum. But right now, either way, right? Right, I think right now what they're doing just makes more sense. This morning, I looked on cleaning the glass. I was curious if their shot distribution was any different since Thanksgiving. It's not. It's pretty much identical, actually.

They're still not getting to the room a lot. They're still shooting a lot of mid-range jumpers around the league average. Still shooting a heck of a lot of threes as well. They're just getting, they're just making a lot of shots. They're shooting seven percentage points better at the rim. They're shooting seven percentage points better from mid-range. they're shooting seven percentage points better from three point range as well. And as a result, their effective field goal percentage ranks second points per possession

ranked second over the stretch as well. Is it sustainable? What's up, John? Is this a trade team? Do you think I make a move at some point with this team? Are they waiting for Anthony Davis? I think they're waiting for AD. And I don't think, for what it's worth, I don't think Anthony Davis will get traded the seasons.

No, there's no way. There's no way. It's not happening. It makes zero sentence for the Pelicans to trade him. now. And besides, Boston can't trade for Anthony Davis right now because of a weird rule in the CBA that disallows them from having two players that were signed to, that were designated players when they signed their rookie extension. So, Kyrie Irving was signed by Claveliers in 2014, Anthony Davis was in 2015. Because of a weird rule, they can't trade for Anthony Davis. And the

Pelicans aren't trading him anyway. I'm taking your word on that. Like, I have no idea if that's true. They can't. The Celtics cannot trade for Anthony Davis until the summer when Kyrie Irving. off side of his contract. Will they make a smaller move? You know, when you look at this team, John, is there something that you think that they should target for their roster right now? I'm just thinking more for like with Rozier and Brown,

them coming off the bench. Like I just wonder how that's going to play over the course of the season. Would you, if you're Boston with Terry Rozier coming off the bench, would you rather flip him for another long-term asset or are you thinking for a guy who can help now? I guess because the way I'm looking at it is,

if you're Boston, A, he's your Kyrie Irving insurance long term, or if Kyrie decides to leave, you have Terry Rozier still as a restricted free agent, and B, Kari Irving, with his injury history, if he were to go down, at least Rozier can elevate into his role. Because Boston wants to win the championship this year. That's their goal. Unless it's a deal that can help them win the title this year. I'm not sure. I'm not sure they're going to do that. I just wonder if they're, like, burning this asset by, like, putting them in a smaller role. I feel like they always like to maximize their assets. Including Jaylon Brown?

Well, Jaylon's a different question. What's up? What's up here in this year, KOC? He's been struggling. He's been better as of late, though. Oh, yeah, he had his best game of the season last night. Last night, yeah. Off the bench.

And he talked after the game about accepting a bench role and how it doesn't matter. Nor does. Interesting. I often wonder, like, I wish sometimes we were talking about finishers instead of starters in the league. Like, who were the guys closing games? That's ultimately what matters.

matters most, right? Right. In a close game, who are the players' coaches are leaning on at the end of games? Sometimes that might not be Jill and Brown,

right? But I think oftentimes it will be, depending on the lineups, Boston wants to go with. Last night, Phoenix got whooped. Again, again. This team has been... Yeah, not just last night.

Yeah. Every game they've gotten, but especially this week, they trailed 36 to 9 against the Kings on Tuesday and ended up losing by 17. And then last night against the Blazers,

they trailed 34, nine after the first quarter ended up losing by 22. Danny, the Suns just need to press to simulate rest of season button. It's over. I wish. I wish that existed. They already have. Yeah, and Charks actually wrote a great piece for today about the Suns and their wing dilemma, pretty much.

Charts, you'd like to elaborate on that? Yeah, I think it's weird right now because Booker and Warren are out. And with those two out, the whole team is completely cooked. But basically the idea is they've got Booker and Aiton. So how does Josh Jackson make sense? And then even though McHale Bridges is probably not as talented as Josh Jackson, he might be a better long-term fit. And so now you have your number four overall pick from last year.

And how does he feel with this team going forward? He doesn't fit. He doesn't fit. I think, you know, I read your article this morning, John. Josh Jackson, you know, it seems like the greater takeaway when I read your article is this. drafting a non-shooter in today's league where shooting is a premium skill comes with significant risks

and right now, Phoenix had other options in that draft they could have taken with the fourth pick guys who are playing now, guys who can contribute now. Josh Jackson is just not one of those players like not only can he not shoot, he's just getting stoned at the rim

by even just anybody, you know, being in the near vicinity of the rim just cannot score anywhere. Not strong enough. No, he's not. And his defense within this culture of the Phoenix Sun, nobody's defending.

Nobody is defending on this team. There was that moment last night where Mikhail Bridges and Igor Kukashkoff, they argued a little bit. It looked like Igor was trying to teach McHale was just trying to get out of there. McHale has never really had instances like this with Jay Wright at Villanova, has he?

Right. Yeah, no. He's a calm guy usually. Sometimes maybe even a little too chill. But I don't think I've seen that side of him last night. It seems, Danny, that this team right now When the Sixers were tanking for years ago, we're talking about, oh, they need a locker room culture, they need a veteran.

Well, Phoenix has a veteran and Trevor Reza. He's not trying much either. He's not running back on defense. Nobody on this team is. Yeah, he's waiting for either the buyout or the trade. I think he realized pretty early on, oh, okay, I got my money. And now in the best interests of both me and the team, they're going to let me go. Goodbye.

Yeah, goodbye. John, is there a team that you would like to see Trevor Reza? traded to. I mean, he can fit pretty much anywhere. It's just a matter of that salary point. Is he going to get bought out or is he can get traded? Because if he gets bought out, it's a lot easier to put him somewhere at what a $1 million salary than at $15.

The one thing that's bothered me a lot this week, and this has been nagging me the whole week. DeAndre 8 and after that game against the Kings, he said quote, he had quite some quotes in there. He did. He said, quote, you down by that much, especially that early? There's no way you're getting back into that game. And how much

were they down by? Oh, that was a That was a game. That was a game. Yeah. You know, earlier last month, he had a quote after loss of the clippers about, you know,

getting intimidated by Boban. He said, I felt like I played like a rookie tonight. I got really thrown off by that big dude. I'm not going to lie. You know, and I think back to, you know,

and after he was drafted, he was asked what's success for him. He's like definitely getting my second contract. Just, you know, Aiton, it just feels like he's playing with a loser,

quitter mentality. And it just annoys me. Because, like, who cares how much you're down by after the first quarter? Have you ever watched sports? Like, come back to happen all the time. They happen in Super Bowls.

They happen in the NBA finals. They happen in the Western Conference finals. They happen in the regular season. So for Aiton, it's so annoying that this guy who started off really strong in Summer League, preseason, even early regular season, is playing like this. You need to toughen up, man. You need to develop a winning mentality by just practicing winning actions, playing hard, staying focused.

focus on your goals within the game. And I think it would be a shame if this just defeatist attitude took over and ate him alive from the inside out. Kevin, did you watch him to Arizona? He wasn't exactly cutting a winning culture there. No, you're right. John, I'm like, you look like a genius right now for wringing him behind Jaron Jacks Jr. Right? And I look back at that and it's like, shit, man.

It's just obvious with some of these things. It's like, this mentality was there in Arizona. It was there in high school. And right now in Phoenix, it's manifesting in the worst possible way. I will say the one thing with Aiton, like the one thing that's really scary, which everyone saw coming, I think, was the block shots. He's just not ever blocking shots, basically. He's not moving on defense. Yeah.

Right. I think what they have to do. So the one lap that's worked for them this year is when they went point Booker, Bridges, Eriza, Warren, Aiton. and I think you tell Aiden you're switching everything when you have big guys around you so instead of protecting the rim it's like you're always playing

good man-to-man defense I think that's probably the best way to use him going forward is to like you're just going to be guarding everyone you have to try all the time don't worry about thinking and playing of being the back line defender

just switch everything and guard guards and he has the tools to do that yeah and he's mentioned during the pre-draft process that oh he's totally comfortable switching on guys and I think if anything that would kind of bring out the kind of competitive

spirit in him in that, oh, people don't think I can defend. I will actually try out on the perimeter where, look, if you get exposed, then whatever happened with him and Darren Collison, you know, him dropping, he's going to want to avenge that. So. I think it removes the thinking for him, too, if you're switching everything. It's a simplified defense. It's just like, just go.

Just a random, quick aside, not giving up on DeAndre. And, of course, you know, he's still averaging 16 and 10 as a rookie with three. So he can still pass the ball. It was a great monologue you had, though. But with that said, the mentality is just, that's worrisome. It's really worrisome. It scares me. Last year during draft class, we talked a lot, and Charks has, you know, talked to him in person.

And he's obviously a very engaging character. And this is kind of part of it, you know. His two on-court personalities. You know, the kind of personality he has in these quotes, you know, he's still a kid. He's still learning things. He's very honest. Forward and genuine. The thing that the Bobon quote reminded me of was this, this is a deep cut.

But Stephen Zimmerman in his first preseason game on the magic. It is very first game. He played against the Grizzlies. And Zibo was on that team. And he was just like, I didn't know what to expect. And I was actually really happy that like Zeebo took it easy on me. And I was just like, what kind of quote is that? Why did you say that?

Yeah, I'll say with Aidan. A lot of guys think that stuff, but he'll just say it. He just doesn't care. Play Dragon Bendermore. That's the solution. He looked good last night in your garbage time. Uh-oh. Just saying.

We're really getting a deep cuts now. It's getting the Dragon Bender talk. Thank you, Microsoft Surface, for being a sponsor of the show. Need a device that helps you get stuff done, but it's also perfect when you want to catch up on some fun, like streaming live sports or checking on your fantasy team. Check out the latest member of the Microsoft Surface family, the new Surface Pro 6. Just take the keyboard off and use it like a tablet or snap it back on and use it like a laptop.

With up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and the new 8th gen Intel Core processor, it's everything you love about the Surface Pro now, even more powerful. Back to Q1F3. Moving on to The Kids Are Alright, the Ringer released its top 25 player list based solely, solely on their performance for the 2018-19 season. We like to overreact. We don't need to. Yeah.

It was a fun list. I enjoyed that a lot. But there's only one player on that list from the 2016 draft class. Now is, of course, Ben Simmons, son of Bill Simmons. Who were some guys next year, Danny, or in the next couple of years from that 2016 class that you think could make a ringer top 25 list? I mean, obviously, if you're looking at age and production, you're probably going to say, Jamal Murray. The dude's

super young still. How how is he at least? 21? 21, I believe. If that. You know, the production still isn't there. He's still an inconsistent player. You know, everyone loved to talk about that 48 point performance after that.

He hasn't really had too many stand out. It's the magic. 31. Only on 10 of 25, but impressive. But an 8 to 1 assist turnover ratio. So, like, there's definitely room to improve there. Pascal Seacum has been amazing this season. I love watching him run the floor.

I love it. Look, like, if there's one signature move that I think has caught everyone by surprise, it's his spin move. Tarks, is that spin move the best signature move in the NBA right now? I mean, did you see the pirouette he had the other night where he caught the ball and just spun? Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I mean, it's the Lucas step back, though.

In the spirit of overreaction, yes, let's go with it. Why not? And then another guy we can shout out to the Monta Sabonis. he's been crushing it all season. So here's my favorite stat for Sabonis. So I was looking this up. There's only three players in the league who shoot more than 60% from two point range

and average more than three assists. I think that's interesting because that's telling you he's scoring all the time at the rim. But more than three assists mean he's not just getting a lob's alley-ups on like pick and rolls. And that's Janus, Eric Bledsoe and Sabonis. Wow. Right?

And like he's not playing in the space that Yonis and Bledsoe are playing. and the Pacers don't really shoot threes that much. No, they don't. He's just straight wrecking people at the rim. Sabonis' development charts has been interesting to monitor. He's drafted 11th, obviously,

in the draft trade with the Thunder and the Magic. Item ranked 12th his year in the draft. He, obviously, if we're doing a redraft now of 2016, he would go higher at this point. Were there signs in college that he could have become the player that he already is now in the NBA? Yeah, I mean, like Subonis isn't the kind of guy

I usually like, because he's not very long. He doesn't really shoot. But I remember, in that three 16-time player, actually. I know, but like, it's crazy. The one thing about him. So I remember, I think this was the first, like I wrote for the ring. I'm back when he had like a mailing list. It was an NCAA tournament.

And he was playing Yonka Pertil in the second round. And I don't know if you remember this game, KOC, but he absolutely murdered Yacquipurto. It was like 30 points to like five. And it was like, this guy is just killing. Like, other young bigs cannot handle the bonus. And it was the same. He played, he played Marquis Chris early in the season. And he literally fouled out Chris in 15 minutes.

It was straight like dribble in the chest, pump fake, dunk, foul. You're out of the game. And to me, with young bigs, like, I think the ability to beat other young bigs in college is pretty important because all those guys can kill your average NCAA big man. But really, it's those big on big matchups to tell you a lot about a player, I think. His defense has been solid this year. I think that was one of the concerns I had pre-drafts. I think there was no question with his offense. Like you said, Charks, he beat up on every other big that had NBA upside, including.

including Chris, including Pertil. But his defense, there's, I had some questions about how we could switch on defense, his short wingspan, how he could protect the rim. But in a way, it almost gets back to the conversation we were having about rebounding, where Sabonis was a really, really great rebounder in college, and he still is today in the NBA. And he's gotten better defending laterally on the perimeter. I think his positioning and his communication on defense allows him to be at least a solid room protector.

Yeah, he's such a smart player, man. He's smart and tough, which is unusual. And then so we were talking about the 2016 draft coming up to the podcast. And we're kind of going over it looking back in it. And what jumped out to me is like after those first two or three picks, I think everybody like, you know, Ingram and Simmons. And then like you're talking about Murray at seven, subonus of 12, Siakum at 29. It feels like to me, sometimes with the draft, there's like group think that develops just

naturally. And you're like, okay, this guy's in the range of four to six. He's in the range of seven to nine. He's in the range of 10 to 15. But what are those ranges really mean? Like three years ago, no one's going to care, right? Like, the best players can come from all spots of the draft. Yeah, and that's something that I kind of applaud the Raptors for doing.

Like, I don't think any of us had Siakum in our first round ranks. I had him as a rising second rounder. He was definitely gaining a lot of buzz. But, you know, Masayu Jiri just goes for his guy. Like, no one knew who Bruno Caboclo was, and that didn't work out, but he took a swing. He did. He did. I remember Bruno was drafted.

He was unranked on every single website. People are like, who? And that never happens. And I've told this story before, but like, I knew about it. It's a good story. It's a great story. Tell it, Danny. We had, at Grantland, we had a tip about this kid because there was, I think our editor back

then, Ray Bartholomew, knew a scout back in Brazil. And he just happened to be at this game. And he's like, Masay Ujiri's here. That's a sign. And I dug up videos for it. And it was just like four videos of Bruno dunking on like vertical film. It was hilarious. And I was just like, I didn't feel comfortable writing about it.

But I wish I did. So Danny, you're saying we should follow Maasai. We should hire someone to track him around the world. Yeah, I'm raising my hand for that one. Yeah. I think so too, especially in regards to Seacum. It's another guy where I look back at my ranking, pre-draft and it's like, I look at my scouting notes

and it's like, oh, pretty accurate, but the ranking, I think I with him and a lot of other people looked at maybe the jumper. The jumper was not good enough. And it's gotten better. Of course, that's something sometimes you can't expect to happen. But also the little things, like on defense, the

effort was always there with him. That was always there at New Mexico State with Pascal Seacum, but wasn't there as fundamentals. And that's something that's gotten a lot better over time with the Toronto our Raptors. What's also gotten better is this ball handling, which has enabled him to not just be a guy who runs the floor and gets ahead of the defensive transition, but a guy who was

already a really good rebounder in college, and now can rebound the ball and go coast to coast and do his unbelievably beautiful spin move. Yeah, I'm really struggling to come up with a transformation that's been as eye-popping as Siakums. The name that comes out for me is like Paul Millsap, who went from the greatest, The greatest rebounding forward in NTAA history to becoming a guy who basically models this game after LeBron, being able to do everything on the court. Are you saying Pascal Seacom is the next LeBron James? I'm saying he's the next Paul Milsafe, I guess. I think with Seacom recently that I think he had four possessions where he was the transition ball handler in college, over two years in college.

And he has like already 60 this season, something along those lines. That's wild. It's really, really fascinating to see how that change has occurred with him. Yeah. And I think, too, with like, just see Acom, it's just like, let's just remember, like, we're looking at players from all over the world. They're all very young. They're all at very different stages of their development.

So, like, when you make these rankings, you're like looking at some time to remember this year, it's like, don't be afraid to say, like, quote, crazy things. So it doesn't really matter. Like, after those first two or three players, it's all in the air, really. Absolutely. I think whether a guy you have way higher than anybody else or way lower than. than anybody else. You know what? You just got to go with it, right? If you talk to people in front offices, what, you want disagreements in your front office. You want your GM to have a guy ranked sixth

on his board and that's thinking about taking him, but you want that general manager challenged by others in the front officer to like, you know what, this guy's a late first round pick. He should not be in consideration for us. You want disagreement. That's what you want to promote. And it seems like in the public sphere, that doesn't happen. Like all so many rankings are fairly similar. And if they're not, oftentimes that person is bashed. How do you have this guy ranked 25th when everybody else has him seventh? Well, that's because I feel differently. And you know what?

Maybe he should be seventh. But there's also a chance maybe a lot of people in the NBA have that guy ranked in the 40s or something like that. I think when it comes to draft analysis. That's the one time you should put the blinders on. Just put the blinders on. And I think what matters is it does matter to get feedback from others in the sense that sometimes you might learn something about the player. but you can't let it necessarily affect your opinion. And in terms of positioning,

like it definitely shouldn't be affecting it. I think that's your underlying point here, John. I mean, like, do you read other draft coverage or do you tend to just ignore it and just try to keep the blinders on and just focus on your thoughts on a player? I've been trying it this year. Like, you know before, I'm always online reading stuff. But like this year, I'm really trying to do it.

And like, I think what that comes back to, like, it's called the anchoring effect. And it's like, once you see a number, like in your mind, you go back to it. Even if there's no real basis for it. it. So you're like, okay, you see, oh, this guy is ranked number 10. Well, I don't like him that much. So maybe I'll put him like 15. But it's because you already have that preexisting knowledge of where it's like with the college, like with the college football polls,

the college basketball polls. They rank the top 25 that started the season, right? And they move guys up and down based on that initial ranking. Yeah. But that's what it doesn't have to mean anything. It's just like a ranking people came up with. So really you have to start from fresh, not worrying about what anyone else has said. And that's what I'm trying this year. You'll see how it goes. I don't know. What I did last year and I'm doing again this I like the way it worked out. I'm just not setting rankings. I'm just not setting rankings for as long until I basically make you.

Until I need to set rankings. Which, by the way, we should probably start thinking about that soon. We should think about that soon. I'm going to resist. I just think not setting rankings, you know, personally. Sometimes you can get locked into an evaluation too early. If you have a guy ranked third or, you know, fifth or whatever or 20th early in the season, Sometimes you can anchor to that position like you said, John, with your own rankings, never mind others.

So I think for me, just kind of just throwing guys in tears, big groups, big clumps. That has helped for me in terms of ranking players, especially towards the middle of the draft, I think. I feel a little more comfortable going into the draft. I think either way, if you're looking at draft rankings, you can't worry about if someone has a drastically different. of anything, that should make you question, why is it different? Maybe I should look at this player a little bit differently. Yeah, and it changes so fast. Danny, do you remember you were talking about Wurter last year?

Oh, yeah. You were like, oh, I really like this guy, but man, maybe I'd have him a 20. And it seemed crazy at times because he goes like ranked 45 everywhere. Yeah. But then he goes 17 anyways. Like, they can move in a week, Jerome Robinson too. Absolutely. And I think even, you know, besides what happens on the day of the draft, right,

what happens five years later when you're looking at it, the draft, the draft is never in the same order the guys goes or what rankings were, right? It's all, that's why we have redrafts. Right, right? That's why we do. I mean, it's actually kind of funny. The 2016 draft was one of the wildest orders I can remember. You know, I can't even remember the guy who the King's draft.

What's his name? George's Papianas. There you go. Yabaselli was in there. Yabaseli was 16th. Maybe like a, you know, fringe, first round, second round guy for me. I had him, I think, in my like third or fourth. here, whatever group it was. I literally had no idea who that was. I'll be honest.

Like that draft was especially weird because, like you said, Danny, I think after that draft, after it'd be like nine or ten or eleven guys, it fell off where it was like from 11 to 40. I remember talking to executives that year. Like, you could have guys in any old order, right? I think... Number thon one went 10. No one's one. Ten. Nobody expected that. That was a really, really weird year. Speaking about Thon Maker, um, moving on to the weekend, Milwaukee Bucks have games against the Golden State Warriors on Friday. And then there's... Toronto Raptors on Sunday.

This is a big weekend for the for the Bucks, isn't it, Danny? It's huge. I mean, like, are we going to talk about Chris Middleton and potential? Very odd.

Very odd. And I think the internet slutes are pointing at a trade, but I don't think that's really the case. Everything I've heard with Middleton is that the bucks love them and they're willing to give him what it takes next summer. But it certainly was very odd. What's up with that, John? Oh, I guess we should say what happened.

So it was a game against the Knicks last week. Bud benches them in the fourth quarter, doesn't play them at all. After playing some horrific defense. It kind of reams him out. And then the next game he missed for personal reasons, right? It was just kind of like, well, what's going on there? Regardless, Milwaukee Bucks, what are you looking for this weekend from them in two tough games against Golden State Warriors of Toronto Raptors, John? I think to me, especially with the Raptors game.

I just want to see who Bud trusts six to nine. He loves Ilyos. Ilyossov is out. I just think, like, how are they going to build at the back of their rotation against a good elite team? Like, they've been playing Sterling Brown, Pat Conaton, DeVincenzo,

it's Tony Snell. They've got a lot of guys who are all unsure about right now and, like, those guys are going to matter in the playoffs. They got to find two or three they really trust and give them 15 minutes

a night against the elite teams. Yeah, and against the Warriors, I think Draymond's going to be out, so it's going to be very up and down. I think the bucks will try to dictate, you know, the style of play there. There are going to be a lot a threes being taken.

And that's kind of the worrisome thing, because when you go to the Warriors into taking threes, I don't think you can win that competition necessarily, but there's definitely a way for, you know, Janus to kind of set the stage there. Danny, with Draymond out, you think we'll see Yonis first KD? I think KD would guard him.

We can dream. I would love that. That's what I want to see. That would be beautiful to watch. Golden State, you know, their stretch coming out their next 11 games are all against pretty difficult opponents. Milwaukee, Minnesota, Toronto, Hermano, Memphis, Utah, Dallas, Clippers, Lakers, Portland, Portland, and then they face Phoenix on New Year's Eve. What a cherry on top.

Yeah, it's quite a cherry. This month for Golden State, obviously, a test, as it is for most Western Conference teams. With Steph Curry back now, obviously Draymond's not back quite yet, have you seen anything from Golden State over these past two games after they sputtered a little bit? That suggests that they're about to turn it on and become the Golden State Warriors, John. You know what it helps? It's just kind of mean, but Damien Jones being out the rest of the season probably helps them a lot. Like, he was not good. And L. McKinney being back as well, I know he's a guy that you mentioned earlier in the season, John, that you like.

Yeah, I think McKinney and Looney are just, I think those are kind of role players you need. I think having those two guys playing bigger roles will help them a lot. Plus, obviously, getting staff back. You have any other Golden State thoughts, either of you guys that you want to hit on before we wrap it up? Yeah, I just think, I think Kerr's found some lineups that makes sense now. They're starting, they go Steph, Clay, Durant, Luni, Iguidala. I think that works pretty well. Then you have off the bench, McKinney, Jerebko, Livingston.

I think they're starting to find units that makes sense. And you have the stars with Golden State. And so if you can find good rotations around those stars, the rest falls together pretty easily. By next week's show, will both Golden State and Toronto be the number one seed in their respective conferences, Danny? Right now, Golden State is back by one game.

I will say yes. I believe in Steph. And Toronto's up three and a half on Milwaukee. Yeah. I mean, Toronto's up three and a half games. They'll be number one. Yeah, they'll be number one. So is this a finals preview?

As of today, right now, is this a finals preview, Toronto versus Golden State? Yes. John? I want to see this Toronto Milwaukee game. I want to see Yannis versus Kauai. That's the big question right now.

So it could be Milwaukee Golden State then. I feel like these are three best teams in the league right now, Toronto Milwaukee Gold State. Yeah. We can't ignore the bucks net rating, which is through the roof right now. Outrageous. Yeah.

It'll be fascinating. I'm looking forward to seeing these two games. Fortunately, it's all we have time for today. Danny, John, looking forward next Friday. Thank you guys, as always. And thank you for listening to the Corner 3. Please give us a five-star rating on iTunes and tell your friends, tell your family, tell everybody that you know about the show.

Make us all really happy if you do. Special shout out to Bobby Wagner for producing the podcast and to my good friend, Elon, for listening to the show. We'll be back next Friday. Thank you again for listening. Have a beautiful weekend.