The Ringer NBA Show - Logan Apologizes to the Celtics, and Luka’s Flaws as a Superstar. Plus, Remembering Jerry West. | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Logan and Raja discuss Boston's commanding 3-0 lead, why this year’s Celtics squad is one of the best postseason teams of all time, and how the Mavs’ most significant flaws are getting exposed in this series (1:30). Later, Logan is joined by Howard Beck to honor the late Jerry West as their Real One of the Week and talk about his legacy as both a player and general manager, the unparalleled impact he left on the NBA, and much more (40:19). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Justin Verrier here from group chat on The Ringer NBA show, and we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L. Ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there.

Roger, before we get to say anything before getting in the rundown, I have something to say. something to say to all the audio listeners and all the people worldwide, all in the different countries and everywhere, I owe the Boston Celtics an apology. Oh, we're coming out the gate. Okay. We got to do it. We got to do it. On my record, this is warranted. This is warranted. This is warranted, right? I owe the Boston Celtics a whole ass apology. I have not believed their wraps all season. I have discredited them at every turn, every time they tried to do something. That was a big-ass hater. You know, I just was. And it's bearing that out, right? now. I read back to what I said

at the beginning of the NBA final saying that they are going to have to show me first of all, I ain't nobody, I ain't shit, but I said that they had to show me that they were ready for this moment after the last couple of years, right? And they have done nothing but do that. They have

lived up to all their lives. And now they are probably, if they win tonight, which is Friday, June 14th, if they went tonight, they could cement themselves as one of the best postseason teams of all time. That's crazy.

Only, I mean, it's real, right? I can't hate on that. I can't disrespect that. The whole city of Boston, the whole staff, record label and motherfucking crew of the Boston Celtics

is owed an apology for me and I will deliver it. Here it is. I apologize to the Boston Celtics. We're going to start off the pod that way. Yeah. On behalf of Celtics, um,

of Celtics, uh, the franchise, the fans, we will, we will accept your apology. Wow. No. Wait, where the hell did you come from?

Where do we accept? Where does you come from? Jesus Christ. Let me just say this. I know, right? First of all, I don't think while I'm sure, you know, the apology is a real thing and it's heart felt. Like, I don't know that you were wrong for wanting to see them take this step.

Like, you know, every team's eventual success is, you know, is a result of a lot of steps towards that success, right? And there will be people, and rightfully so, that will say, hey, man, I'm going to need to see that. Especially if there have been instances that you can point to with said team that, you know, at least in theory, they had a really, really, really good opportunity at it. And they just kind of, for whatever reason, weren't ready to take advantage of it. And so, like, I don't think you were terribly wrong for that.

Look, I'll apologize to them, too, in that, and I don't know that anyone saw this coming, I picked them in a really tough series. And I kind of vacillated over whether I thought I would maybe potentially take the Mavs. And then ultimately I thought it would be Boston. But like I didn't see them doing this. So, you know, I'll throw a little apology in there with you. Like my bad, I just didn't know. And to the point that you made about them being one of the best postseason teams of all time,

I mean, that's not hyperbolic if you look at what they did. But 15 and 2 right now, two losses have come at home. that would put them alongside the 2001 Lakers, which ended up, which you were familiar with, and it would put them alongside the 1617 warriors, just below them. That's nuts.

Pull it out. That's nuts. Good for them, man. I'm, you know, I feel for the other side for sure, like, and we'll get to that.

But, like, there are times where teams win and you don't, like, genuinely necessarily feel, like, really happy for, for all parties involved.

Like, I can honestly say, I am really happy for all parties involved. Like could list the reasons why and go down the roster and the coaching staff and everything like that, but it's pretty cool. We're here. We're going to talk about the, me and Roger are going to talk about game seven and talk about the ramifications of game seven. And in the next segment, me and Howard, motherfucking Beck are going to talk some Jerry West.

But first, let's, let's keep this going, man. I've been thoroughly impressed by the Boston Celtics. I've been thoroughly impressed by one Jalen Brown who has kind of come in of age. He's probably in the face of this transformation that we've seen from the Boston Celtics. We always talk about the trade of Marcus Smart and what that would be and the ramifications that would be,

would they have the mental toughness if they did do such a deal to ever trade him? And they've had that. And Jalen Brown, I sits to calmness, man. And you start to see this with guys, when they come of age in front of our eyes, especially on the special ones at least, right? And I think about, I think about the two,

I always have, you know, I always have Laker, Laker reminiscence, or however you say it. But I think about, you know, Kobe in the 2000 finals type of vibe, right? Where you see a guy coming of age in front of our eyes, a younger guy.

Now, Kobe was obviously younger than Jalen Brown, but you're starting to see there's a calmness that comes. There's a calmness that permeates not only with the guy that has the calmness, but how that permeates when that guy is a leader around to the rest of the guys. And the Boston was up, 21 going into in the fourth quarter,

and it looked like it was a rap. I tweeted, I don't ever tweet. I tweet less than you, Raja. And I said, give Boston the trophy. Right after I said that, the motherfucking Maver's going to run. And I'm like, oh, man. And then you see the calmness.

You see Jalen Brown hitting big shots. You see him getting a big tip in. You see the maturation in front of our eyes. And then you just see after he goes to an interview with Lisa Salters, you see the calmness and the supposed to be there onness of him. I'm really, really impressed. We'll talk about the Celtics and the rest of the group, but I've been so, so impressed with Jalen Brown over the last few days.

I mean, he's had a remarkable stretch during this playoff run. And, you know, you said something. something that they kind of caught my attention when you said he's he's a little older than Kobe was at this point what I what I want to say to that is you know Kobe and I don't maybe it's not all the way fair because Kobe also had stars with him that were not stunting his growth necessarily but like it wasn't his time to be the guy yet because he had Shaq right so you don't have to dump all of that on a young Kobe he could mature into that in that way but Jalen Brown is kind of like that too because Jason Tatum was the more ready to go pro

like he was the more polished um offensive weapon more versatile when they when they came from the basketball program like in college right whereas Jalen came from from from from Cal like that plays a part in it too a lot of people don't know like how much the institution of college of the college that you go to factors in that are sure so you're right and well into your general readiness, right? But like, because Jason Tatum was more advanced and Jalen Brown was more raw, that development was going to take a couple years probably longer than it ordinarily would because he had a one A or one B that was in most cases a better option.

So that just stunts your growth a little bit. And so I don't think it's a negative negative. necessarily. It's just what you're seeing now is he's taken these incremental steps and he's gotten better every year. And because it's not his platform all the time to just have the ball and put up crazy numbers and do this. And quite frankly, if he had to do that, they wouldn't be the team that they are. Let's be real about that. Right. They're who they are because of the weapons that they have, not just Jalen Brown. But he's one of them. And he is quickly turning in. to a player who can stand there and tell you, like, I'm better offensively and defensively

than X, Y, and Z, and I deserve to be on that team. Like, this, this isn't, this isn't something that people should moving forward mock him for. You understand what I'm saying, Logan? Like, and what I like about him the most, and there are a lot of things to like physically and, and skill set wise, but what I like about him the most is, you know, some people can get moved off of their spot. by that I mean like I tell you something I don't fully believe it you give me reasons to make me second guess it and now I don't believe it with the same level of vigor and conviction that I did a minute ago like I've moved off of that spot nobody's moving Jill and Brown off of his spot he's telling you I am that I am that dude right and that's a that's a big deal and people don't people don't realize that like it's it's a hard it's a hard thing to really express, like, the level of supreme confidence and belief that one has to have

in themselves to be the best or to be the best and to be the reason that a team is winning championships. Like, you can't waver in that, you know, at all. I mean, sure, there's a little wavering. Everyone's got up and downs and confidence. But understand, there's a level of confidence that they never dip under. He's not getting moved off that spot. Somebody had asked me, you know, when you're in this space.

Like people always ask what you think, what you think? That's like the best, the biggest question in the NBA is, what do you think about this? What do you think about it? I remember talking to my dog Leon Carter and he was like, who do you think is going to win tonight? And I'm like, I think the Celtics are going to get this. I think the Celtics are going to get this game three. And he was like, you sure? Even like with Prozengas being out?

And I was like, yeah, I think so. Because they had this energy, right? And I think that they, in game three, they continue to have the energy. You know, and Bill Simmons and Doc Rivers talked about this on Bill's Pod the other day. And I wholeheartedly agree with it. But like, you see this every year with championship teams where during a series, they kind of find their footing. And you kind of see it towards the later games of that series where they're just, it's almost like their own autopilot and how good they are. You know what I'm saying?

It's like the best brand of basketball they played all season. And I think about what I saw in game six of the 22 series, the Warriors versus Celtics, right, where they just find their best game and they become the best team in the league, right? Yeah. I saw that with the Celtics in game three, right? Even when they were down early, there was this calmness that they had.

They were still running their sets. They were still getting their shots. And Dallas had thrown their biggest punch of the whole series. and were only down, only up one or two points throughout. And it was like the Celtics kept lingering, right? And then they went on their run in the third quarter. And then even when they were, when the Mavers were coming back, you didn't sense like that they were good enough,

even with Luca Donschison, Kyrie Irving, balling, that they could get over to hump. And I think that that was a very big testament to the Celtics. The one thing I would disagree with was if Jalen Brown doesn't hit that tough pull up around the Fritho line, I thought they were getting run down. I thought they were going to fumble the bag. That was a massive shot.

I mean, there were a few possessions where Dallas had opportunities and just couldn't capitalize where I personally thought they could have been in jeopardy there, right? But yeah, I was watching with a Mavs fan and we were eating dinner. And so I was kind of like asking him who had what and he was keeping me up to date as I conversed a little bit, right? Like, I'll come home and watch the game.

if I'm in a setting like that. So at the time, I'm just kind of watching the score, watching plays and stuff like that. And he was telling me, you know, the Kyrie had this and that. And I was like, yeah, this is a problem. You guys are only up three. Like, I had the same sense, right?

What I, like, you a Matrix fan? A little bit. They did it in the base, so I fuck with it. Yeah, all right. So, like, it's like when, it's like when Morpheus is trying to tell Neo, like, none of this is real. Like, you just have to wrap your mind

and believe, right, is the word. You have to believe that you are actually in the matrix, and none of this is real. And that's what happens to a team essentially when you're saying that they reach this level of like, it doesn't really matter. None of this is real. We are going to win the game.

So like they can be up. And you're right, Logan, that's when you come out and you blister us in game three the way you have to if you're the Dallas Mavericks and Kyrie is cooking and that place is rocking. and we are just the scene where they're just firing off all those bullets, like the agents are just riddling him. And he's just like in slowmo, like, no, we're straight, man.

Look, look, we're just going to woo, woo, right, right. But that's where they're at. They're like, yo, just chill, man, we're fine, bro. Just keep hooping. Just keep hooping. Just keep hooping. And that is a championship level mindset where there's no panic set in. There's no, there's no, hey, I got to make it up in one possession.

there's no tightness that that seeps in. You just keep hooping because you believe, and you know that this is this is fake. The eventuality is we're going to win this because we're a better team. We're more solid top to bottom. We've got more experience in this space. And just let's let's just keep going. And so that is a very championship mindset attitude,

and you definitely could see it from the Celtics. That's, in part, you know, because, in large part because there's a lot of championship experience and deep playoff run experience over there on the Celtics and you can't discount what that does

in these situations. You saw the antithesis of that to some degree with the Luca meltdown. Yes. Right now he's been in, I don't mean to say he hasn't been in big games and in big playoff situations, but not having the supporting cast

around him that have that type of experience is important because that's a lot of weight on his and Kyrie's shoulders. Well, the thing is like with Luca, and I was going to get to this at some point, but I feel like this, the finals always exposes every bit of your flaws, like on the biggest stage, right?

And the biggest flaw that we've been saying time and time again about the Dallas Mavericks is, they're too dependent on all world scores and they don't have any ancillary pieces. And the other criticism, me and you always have, is Luca and his propensity to just get into it with referees. And it felt like that meltdown was coming, right? Like, you can see the buildup.

You can definitely see the buildup. And even, like, and I do want to get your take on the last foul. But in my opinion, there's no reason why you even try to go take that chance with four minutes left. Show me someone, so I'm sure they're out there. They're Luca defenders. and I'm not going to secure Luca. Like, I'm not that dude. Like, I'm not about to come on here.

But if you can show me a clip of Luca taking a charge, I'd like to see it. And I only say that because- He's taking a couple of this postseason, but not like that, right? I think that was just clear, like, you were not going to win that argument. How many years has he played in the NBA? Six, four, six.

You referenced a couple charges, and I would challenge you to show me, like, my point is that was so out of character. Currently looking up the Luca charge compilation on YouTube. Like, that's not as bag defensively, is all I'm saying, right? Like, so that's not even, I probably shouldn't have said it,

but it was in support of your point. Like, that was so out of character. Like, why are you doing that at five, five fouls? Um, you've been melting down for the last two minutes. And now you're gonna, that's so out of character for you.

I think, and then the defiance that Luca had after that, right, with the, in the presser, I think Tim McMahon asked him a question and he, about the calls and he just blamed the rest and told them to be better. When the referee,

Reese, you've been a defender your whole career. They're not, one, they're not going to give you that call. Like, and second of all, you weren't even set. You just kind of fell down. You saw that he was, that Jalen was trying to push you, which is minimal contact. And then you try to flop. And then you, then because you're Luca Donchison is a six foul, they have to challenge. But that never, that challenge never had a chance.

That challenge, it never had a chance. It was an obligatory, hey, man, like, it's got to be done. You are correct. Let me say this about Luca. He's got to grow up. Like, he's got to grow up in that space. And I was someone that had history with the refs, and I would be into it with refs.

And so I'm telling you firsthand, like, it is distracting not only to you, but to your team. And I had a lot of conversations with coaches in regards to that. The difference between Luca and I is in the void between our roles, on teams and our ability to do things for a team and just us as players is so vast, it didn't really matter if I did it. Now, on some teams where I played a bigger role, it mattered more than others, but I was always an ancillary piece. You are the show. You can't be doing that. Like, quite frankly, I was paid fractions of what other people were paid. That wasn't my job to be

the stabilizing force. I don't get paid to keep the troops together and run. You want troops? You get, I'm on the troops. Facts. Facts, like you get paid to do that. And so he's got to grow up. Now, all of us had to grow up.

Every player that came into the league has had to go through some sort of, you know, journey to grow and morph into the player that can win championship. So he's no different. But he has to do it because that, that has to stop. Like that, I, I can't remember a star

in that moment, like having that big of a moment in the finals. You can't foul out. Not the way you did. Not the way he did because it was too straight, like stupid-ass fouls that he had,

right? You like dove, you like dove at a, like into somebody's legs at a ball. Like it was, it was just weird. It was weird. You can't do that in an elimination game.

The NBA creates this. I've been on here before. Like, the NBA creates this. They, they, they, treat their stars because this is entertainment, right?

At some level, this is entertainment. Rightfully so, it is what it is. Not mad at you, but through the course of a regular season, guys are accustomed to getting certain type of treatment. Yeah. Through 82, there is a treatment level that you get. And we're human beings and we're creatures of habit. And so we start to acclimate to the treatment that we get.

And you start to understand, like I understood. I went to the basket a lot in college. Like I was a rim, I was at the rim player. I wasn't a jump shooter, but it became very evident that like, you know, athletically, you know, it was more difficult in the NBA setting, but I was not getting those calls. What is the point of just going in there? Like, I'm going to morph into something else.

So my brain started to wrap around. Like, bro, that's not, it's not going to be for you, right? Like it's, so, so I say that to say that when you, when you change the whistle on those guys, whether it's for the playoffs or, you know, because, like, you know, maybe they're looking at their peer now and, you know, you just are going to let them, quote, unquote, play tonight. You know, like, there's a lot that goes into this. But the rep, the way they are reff throughout the course of the season creates their expectation of calls. Some guys are able to navigate that in a mature way and understand, like, okay, tonight, I'm not getting those, right?

I tell a story all the time. Like people look you believe me or you don't have to believe me Kobe Bryant in LA I was playing for the jazz I love the story hit me with an elbow right bomb like I was up in his space crowd and he swung to and clipped me with an elbow like the ref called whatever the call was it might have just been an offensive foul or technical I don't know but we started jawing

right across from the scorers table at each other Kobe looked at the motherfucking ref and told him to call it even tonight call it even tonight I love this story, bro. Every time you tell it, I'm just getting it. The man looked at the ref in my presence. We're both standing there and told a man to call it even the night. And the ref had no reaction. He wasn't

even, the ref, what tripped me out about it, it was so matter of fact and so like a direct order that I was taken aback, like, oh shit, like you're not even going to react to that as the ref? And you could look it up. Like, I shot free throws that night

as a player that rarely went to the free throw line, to the degree that I did not normally shoot. That's Maney, bro. That is baity. Because like what superstar says that? Those superstars want to get all their falk holes in the modern age, right? Like that's a fucking

psychotic way of going about it to say, hey, bro, I need, I need y'all to call it even a night to get that challenge, to get even more of a challenge. No, no, I mean, his mindset was wild in that, right? Like, yo, we're just, the gloves are off tonight. Like, let me see him, right? Yeah. Like, let me see him, fucking, we're in the street.

Consciously knowing that I get all the calls to be like, no, fuck that. Because for him, it's a different challenge. It's like, okay, I have to put in my mind because Roger's going to be more physical. And we can call it, however the fuck who call it. Yeah, and it really was going to manifest itself was on the other end where I never got calls.

When I had the ball, right? Like, so Kobe, like I respected that. I still thought it was super crazy to hear, but I respected that he was like, let me see what he, let me see who he is without, without, without, but my point, my overall point is stars know.

Again, you're, I mean, you can see it in the way that you can see it in a way that Luca reacted to the last two calls, right? It's like, oh my God, they, what the fuck? You got the audacity to do some shit like that. But on a bigger thing, on an overall bigger example, I feel like this is just a

Luca reputational series, not even just for the foul calls and the antics that go with the foul calls, but it's just the overall body of work. Right. Now, he's been brilliant, but it's been a Luca type brilliant where there's other stuff that there's other things in his game that left much to be desired, right?

Like, yeah, he plays good defensive spurs. But he's comically out of shape, man. And this is a recurring thing that we continue to see. You can't rely on Luca even a little bit defensively. Yeah, he had some spurts throughout this playoffs. But that's like something when, you know, inconsistent potna is like telling you everything is going to be good and has a two-week stretch where it's good.

And then, you know, and then he just goes back to what. he's been. You know what I'm saying? We all got them friends. Like my diet, bro. I mean, shit. You earned that, motherfucker. You earned it. You earned it, Flair. But it's like that with Luca, right? Where it's, okay, we have a two-week stretch

where you are good defensively. And then we see, I know there's been out throughout this series that we've both seen where it's like, damn, Luca, you're not going to pick the dude up? Damn, look, you're not going to help the helper? Oh, you're just going to stand in the corner. You're going to do the 38-year-old LeBron. thing and you're 25.

Yeah, and you're 25. That's going to be the next step because he's always going to be brilliant offensively and his stats are always going to counteract the other stuff that he doesn't do on the floor. But when you're trying to win titles, you have to do the

things that we do see and the things that we don't see. And he's doing a lot of things that we do see at a high level, but a lot of things that we don't see, he's doing at a very low level at this point. And we need to see more of him. do the little things if he's going to get back to this point and win at this juncture because the Celtics are doing all the little things that you see and all the

things that you don't see and that's why they're up three oh in the series yeah i think is well said he's at a crossroads of sorts like a real pivotal kind of moment in his career right because they've come so close um and the pairing of of he and kairi i mean there are pieces that they still need um they need more support secondary scoring for sure But that's working now. That's paid dividends. The young bigs, the moves that they made going to be a good fit. Those are pieces.

You've got a foundation. Where Luca has to decide how much being an all-time great means to him. He's an all-time great talent. Yeah. It's undenied. There's no question with a skill level offensively in particular that is probably one-of-a-kind, man. I mean, it's unique, right? Like, they're guys that can, could fill it up.

But, like, what he does at his size and his skill level is a really unique combination of skill set and whatnot. But that's only a piece of this puzzle in terms of all-time greats, right? Like, you watched Mike in The Last Dance talk about, you know, how maniacal he was about the work that he did and how he held his teammates to this standard because he did it that way. So it wasn't him talking about it. He was like, I tried to win every sprint. You hear how Kobe talked about his work ethic and teammates not being able to keep up with that. And you've heard teammates talk about that. Like you couldn't keep up with that.

He was raising the bar and setting the standard. Luca has to decide how he wants to be what his legacy is going to be. And that's going to be directly tied to his ability to win championships. and his ability to be in shape and have the level of stamina and physicality that he needs to have to withstand the rigors of 82 and a playoff run and still be standing there in the playoffs. Now, he could be injured,

and if he is injured and I don't know, then that might be why he looks the way he looks. But I don't think, and I know people around, I don't think he takes care of his body the way he's supposed to take care. I don't know if, have you seen the map? In the Evericks in person yet? Have you seen him come through Miami yet?

No. You know I don't go to them game. You're fucking superstar and shit. But no, like when I see, whenever I go to a game, whenever, you know, because Luke is one of those guys, you got to see when he's in town, right? Like, he's, he's one of those types of players. So I always getting early to see what he does and, you know, see the warm-ups. The difference in warm-ups between him and Kyrie is astounding.

Like, when I see Kyrie, Kyrie comes in early. Yeah, he's meticulous in the way he's very meticulous in his, and his, and his approach, similar to Durant, right? Like, where they know every one of their movements. They're doing, they're doing, like, yoga poses and, like,

different footwork type things. They might shoot the ball a little bit, but they're really just trying to get their footwork right for the night. Sure. And get your, and in some regards, get your body turned on. You're trying to activate muscles that need activation

to get what you want out of it. Man, Luca damn near took, like, shots or like five shots. Three of them holes was from half court. And then he went back into the locker room. Now that's wild. But that supports

that supports where I was where I was with that. He's got to make a decision. Does he just want to be like one of the most talented all-time players in the NBA? Or does he want to be one of the greatest? And those are two different things. And he's so good, right?

To where it has to be on him because no one in the Mavericks organization is going to say anything. I mean, Nico Harrison and Finley will, but like, he's so good. It doesn't matter at this point. Yeah, he's outgrown that. Like, you, you, that's like a child that you raise. Like, once you wait until they're 22 to start trying to teach them to have some respect for you, it's too late.

Yeah. That starts when they're a baby, bro. Like, that beer clip of Luca was no mistake, you know? Like, of Michael Finley taking the beer, like, that was no mistake. That was everyone seeing what happens on a daily basis with Luca. And it's funny, you know, it's sometimes endearing, but like, that's not going to win you titles. I mean, it's not. Unless we're in a world now where Luca is 1B.

No, no, I'm just telling you. And I'm not suggesting that Luca be 1B. I'm saying if, but if that's going to be his attitude towards the defensive end of the court, general shape, the winning plays that need to be made when it is at the toughest, then, then, you know, it can be endearing and he can be an all-time talent and all of that, but you're going to need someone else that is an otherworldly talent that fits the bill in those ways, a la Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Kobe, like those type of dudes. Let me just say one more thing, because I think it's important to draw a comparison,

because he's not like Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, like Kobe. those guys he's more like um you know body type athleticism and stuff like that like yokichich yeah right like but you never i mean yokic made huge strides to to where like he was very competitive you know defensively i don't know that he ever going to be known as a phenomenal defender and all that type of stuff but very competitive in those in those moments and not just give stuff away. Like, Luca reverted a little bit. Just giving stuff away. Like, we can't do that. Possessions are at a premium in the playoffs, even more so in the finals. Like, nothing can be given away. We can't concede any straight line drives. They must all be fought for. Like, if he's going to get to the

rim, let's change his angle. Like, it cannot be a straight line. He's got to take this, like, banana route. I can then get across to help you on that from a secondary defender standpoint. If you give him the straight line, there's nothing we can do about it. It's collapse in our defense. Like, these are, you know, we're in the weeds with that, but like, he has to fight for those. And so, you know, even Yokic fought for those. Timmy Duncan is another name that comes to mind because Tim was not a phenomenal, like, specimen athletically. He wasn't Kevin Garnett.

No, he wasn't. I mean, it's just facts. Like, he wasn't. He'll probably be the first to tell you that, honestly. Tim was in the best shape. Like, Tim was hyper competitive in on the, defensive end of the court. Now, I don't think Luke is ever going to be a defensive

like prowess like Tim, but the point was like you don't have to be a monster athletically to succeed in those areas. You don't. You just have to have the willingness, the mindset, and be in physical shape to do that. Also, let's talk about Kyrie before we get to the Mabbs offseason. And then we're going to get back to the Celtics, then we'll get

back to Howard motherfucking back. But what have you thought of Kyrie now that we have a good sample size of this series? Because it's been an interesting We talked about how we, he got a little bit on the good foot in game three. You know, he played, he scored really well. Kind of was the Kyrie that they would have, if they would have had this Kyrie in the beginning of the series, it would probably be a different series.

What have you thought of his game and now that we're three games in, and almost out of the series? Yeah, I think it's been a little disappointed in the finals. I think Kyrie would tell you that. Like, he played really well in game three. I like the way he came out. I liked his mindset. I like the way he was in attack mode, but it was kind of too little at that point, too late.

But I don't think that that's a problem. I think that players are allowed to have, you know, off nights in that way, especially offensively. Kyrie never gives me the sense that the other things are going to suffer dramatically because he's not playing great offensively. I don't see him out there sulking. I don't see him out there, you know,

complaining to a way that's distracting to what his teammates are trying to achieve. Remember, we're all looking at you. The troops, we're all looking at you. How are you comporting? How are you handling yourself in this? We know you're struggling. Are you panicking and is, are we supposed to panic?

What? You're going to panic? Okay, we'll all panic. Oh, shit. Like, Kyrie's not doing that. And I just say again, like, as a member of a team, this is, let's be real, man. I know how much money you make.

I know who to start his team. is. I know what your job is. I know what my job is. I know what Logan's job is. I know what all of that is. I will, I will, I am okay if you can't find the max player offensive game on any given night. I can step up if I can and fill in the void for that. Like these things can be done. What I am not okay with as as as a troop member is when my max player guy is frying out and it looks like the world is ending and he's only concerned with him. Call that crashing out in the modern age.

Call that crash now. That's not okay. That's, I can't make up for that. Like, I don't represent those things to the team. So you asked me about Kyrie. Now,

I don't think he's played as great as he should offensively or he's, as he could or, or as well as the Mavericks needed him to. But I think he's been stable. And I think that he's been looking for it and playing in an effort to find it, which tells his teammates, like there's no quivor. in that. And then he found it in game three. And so I don't have any beef what Kyrie has done in

that series. Like, you know, I could make a case for, even though I didn't play great, I think it's still helping his image of who he is and the teammate he can be. Because he has been, even at the mic, he's been steadying. Yeah. And that's what you need him to be. We talked about, I started this off on an apology, this podcast off an apology. I think there's going to be a lot of apologies for Joe Missoula. Oh, I'm not apologizing because I'm not, fuck, I'm apologizing for it. Listen, I get on this microphone and I call what I saw before I got on this microphone. That's all I can do.

So if it's not great in my estimation and my job is to talk onto this mic into the mic, that's what I'm about to say. if it changes and then I get back on the mic, guess what? Hey man, you did a great job. And so Joe Missoula, I don't have an apology because I didn't think that was great last year. But you are doing your thing. I have, I mean, that's what I can say. He is doing his thing. And that's the scary part for the league.

It's on the rundown. How many could the Boston Celtics reel off? That's where we're at right now in the podcast. Yeah, but I'm not. I mean, that's where we're going. You got, seven, we're going to go.

But it could be because if they're able to, you know, continue to kind of, I mean, they got a lot of control over, over that roster. And Joe Missoula is getting better. You see Jalen Brown getting better. Jason Tatum is still on the ascension.

Like, they're real reasons why this could be very cool moving forward. And for Boston and scary for the rest of the league. They're real reasons. in here telling you they've got a four-year dynasty. I'm not doing that. They're young. But you're not not saying it is all I can't not say it. You can't not say it.

Yeah. I'll just say this, man. If the Celtics reel off a couple championships or maybe two, the ringer is going to be just credulous. It's just going to be, who, just so much propaganda coming out of this place. Just so much. I don't know, Kai and Kerm are going to have to duck for cover. Yeah, right?

Jomey's going to have to. Jomey's going to have to. I don't know what the hell is Joe. Fucking Jomey. Jomey needs a hibernate. Just hibernate for a few years, bro. Just go into like a nice slumber, wake up after this run. I feel like this.

And I hope some of the midnight boys are listening to this. Jomey has become the most Hollywood motherfucker of all time. Not my dog. Not my dog, Jomey. He don't come and see us no more. I got to go to L.A. and see him. He don't never pull up to it on the gang. Don't never say hello.

Right. He's a star now. I went to, I was in L.A. over the weekend. And this motherfucker was cutting the commercial with the Midnight Boys. Wow. I hear you, too. I hear you, wow. Once upon a time in Palmdale, my guy.

Once upon a time in Palmdale. He don't even fuck with us, though. It's crazy. That is crazy. I hope that y'all, everybody, y'all flood his mentions to say, ruins loves you, but you know Hollywood. No doubt, man. I mean, like an original, an original Bridgeton boy.

An original Bridgeton boy. We still got to lock in on Bridgeton boys at something. We still have to do it. We have to do it. All jokes aside, though, all jokes aside. When was the last time an NBA, like in the modern, not modern, but like in the last, I don't know, there hasn't been a repeat champion in how long now? Since Warriors went back to back, 17, 18.

So the league is making it harder, you know, with, with, with, it's, making it harder for teams to do that with the CBA and stuff like that. But having said that, you know, the talk about Denver last year was their window and they wound up losing some pieces. I think Boston is going to be in a better situation to retain pieces and keep that thing, you know, moving forward in the direction of potentially winning, you know, two in a row going into next season. So, yeah, man, they're stacked.

Like, they got Chris Dobbs coming back next year. They got Drew Holiday, who they just got the extension. Derek White is going to be back next year. The people that they need are going to be back. Sam Hauser is out here balling. He has a team option. He'll be back next year. At least one more.

Yeah, they got one more like, at least with people, right, where they don't have to adjust. They can bring the same team back. They're going to be in good shape. So we'll see what happens with the Boston Celtics. It has been a great, great year for them. We're talking like they're going to win it all.

So they better do it. Can I put this out there? young buck, Ty Bell told me the other night, a coach at LSU asked him what the score in the game was going to be, right? He said 107 and 98. It was 106 to 99, right? He also said, and he's a huge Kyrie fan, that he thought that the Mavericks were going to lose game three, to which we were all like, what? He said, yeah, they're going to lose game three. They're going to win game four and five. This is what the man said the other day before, like two hours before the game started. So I'd be hell of mad if I was on the Mavericks

and I wasn't playing and I had to go to Boston and I already have my trip book to Cancun and then I got to go back to Boston I'd be hell of mad. I'm just saying they got to close it. I guess it was my attempt at being funny about like, yo, while we are making this and we are crowning them already

and that is the inevitability but they got to close it. Shout out to Clairvore and Ty. Shout out to our little homie. Shout out to our guy. Ruin of the week is brought to you by Arvys. On or off the court, you need fuel to get through the day. So fill up with a burger from Arvys.

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Try Arby's burgers today. Download the Arby's app and order ahead to skip the line. Arby's, we have the meats. Limited time offer at participating in U.S. locations while supplies last. And we are back. Howard Beck is in the building. Wanted to talk to him for this segment because he wrote a great piece on the ringer.com. Jerry West and the burden of being the logo.

Let's start there, man. You know, Jerry West passed away this week. You wrote a great piece on that. You talked about your experience. And, you know, this is always the question that I start off all of our conversations, either on or off the pod. You talked about your experience covering Jerry West in the piece and talk about, you know, the nervousness that you had covering him.

But then you talked about how when you really felt you got to know him. And it was the night of the Lakers championship in 2000 where you saundered in his office and you ask him how he's doing and he's just miserable, right? And you asked him, how did he feel to watch this title? You know, Kobe and Shaq are at the top of the NBA Mountain Top, and this was all of your vision coming to fruition. And he basically just says, and I've been driving around Los Angeles is getting updates.

I couldn't bear to watch it. What did that say about the man that Jerry West was, not only to cover, but the man that he was? What was he like on a day-to-day? basis when you were getting to know him. At that time, you know, I'd been covering the Lakers for three years. So I'd gotten to know Jerry a little bit. He was a, he had started to withdraw from public spaces or just from media spaces. Like, he wasn't around as much during my time, I think, as he was in previous years. So I think I, in some ways, I little, I probably got cheated a little bit,

I feel like, of getting the full Jerry West experience, um, that other reporters would have had prior to 97 when I started. But in 2000, they win the championship. championship. And Jerry had put everything on the line to do this in 96, right? Kobe was the 13th pick of the draft by Charlotte. You know, if everybody knew what Kobe was going to become, that wouldn't be the case. And Jerry not only traded half of his roster, just renounced rights to guys, whatever, to make room to make this Godfather offered a shack and free agency, but he trades Vladay DeVots was one of the better centers in the league to get the draft rights to Kobe. So he, you know, like everything, everything in 96 within about a couple weeks span was, I am banking the entire

future, my reputation, this franchise on these two guys. And so here we are in 2000. They've just won the championship after a really wild ride too, right? Like those playoffs were, you and I've talked about it many times, was no guarantee they were going to pull it out. And they win the championship. They beat the Pacers. And it's the morning after when I walk into his office. And there's like one light on. It's dim in there. And it's like, it's like, Like, the symbolism is overwhelming, right? Like, there's this dimly lit room and Jerry's kind of grim in the moment. And, yeah, it was just really striking.

Like, that was when I first kind of understood that this is a guy who, you know, I knew he could be really intense and really passionate and sometimes would, you know, if you crossed him up or he didn't like something, you're going to hear about it. I don't think I understood just how heavy the burden was until that morning where I walk in and I say, hey, so how'd you enjoy last night? And he's like, I didn't. And as I'm, you know, he goes into this whole litany of like he's, I'm happy for Jerry Buss and I'm happy for Shack and Kobe. I'm happy for Phil Jackson. I'm happy for the fans. I'm happy for our scouts. And he starts naming them, Gene Turmolan, Ronnie Lester, going through this list. But he's not, he's not happy for himself and he doesn't

sound happy at all. And that was the thing with Jerry. And I didn't put all the quotes from that day into today's piece, but I keep everything, Logan. I'm a bit of a digital pack rat in addition to a physical pack rat. I have my notes. I have the whole file from that day of all the quotes from him. And one of the other things he says is that, like, for him, winning is like a sickness. Like, he just, he has to win. And the problem with winning being a sickness, as he described it, is that even when you do win, it's not enough. And that to me was really sad. And that really, Jerry had this incredible life and incredible career and had an incredible impact. He was overusing the word incredible here, but just this impact on so many people,

generations of people inside and outside of basketball, incalculable impact. And yet it was so hard to ever sense that he had a full appreciation. I know he did, but the enjoyment part, the happiness part, the satisfaction just never seemed to be there, at least not the levels that you and I would associate with somebody who's had that kind of success. And so that's a bit of a tragedy in itself. And so I

viewed him through that lens for the duration after that. Well, I mean, he comes in the league in 1960 at a time when the Lakers are always, they have the early success with George Mike in in the 40s, and then they come into the 60s and they're basically

just, you know, led by two of the greatest wings of all time in Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, but they are the second place team perpetually going in always in the Celtic shadow. I don't know the exact numbers, but they lost like,

I think eight or nine times to the Celtics, and Jerry West was the face of that, but then he wins his title. It's not enough. And then, you know, Jerry Bus comes and he purchases the team. Me and you were kind of talking about this offline before we got on this call

about Jerry's outsized influence on this team, the only team that he ever played for and the only team that he's ever loved on this level, he comes in as a GM and kind of modernizes the way that we look at GMs. First he comes on as a coach, and then he is a GM, and then he gets Mitch Cup check

and kind of makes the modern front office on the fly that we see now, right? With his number two, builds the showtime, Lakers and then has his second act with as a executive after a Hall of Fame playing a career and then gets it and orchestrates the the Kobe trade and the shack signing.

I know we talk about him as the greatest GM in all the sports, but how much of that influence did he have? I feel like we're understating the influence he had on the Lakers organization considering how new Jerry was, Jerry Buss was, to the NBA and how much help he needed. how much did behind the scenes should Jerry West get, how much credit should he get for the behind the scenes thing is building this Lakers organization from 1979

onto what the one we see today, even though he left in 2000, and we'll get to that in the second. But I feel like it's understated how much, even the credit that he does get, I feel like he needs more credit for what he did and building this franchise into what it is today. Here's the thing with assessing Jerry's place in like the Laker firmament, right?

Like the Lakers have had so many all-time legends, so many incredible towering figures of the game, right? From Micahin in the Minneapolis days, obviously Kareem and Magic and Worthy, all the Showtime guys and Shaq and Kobe, and now even to the present with LeBron, there had just been so many luminaries associated with this team, Phil Jackson, this coach.

But nobody, did as nobody did as much in totality as Jerry West because it's it's all the way from the playing days. And yes, the one championship against eight losses in the finals to the Celtics. And that's the scar that Barry Jerry bears, right? And like,

Jerry West was the first finals MVP of all time. And he was still to this day, the only finals MVP from the losing team. And that's just, it's such a weirdly and unfortunately appropriate honor. for him because that's how it was. It was always heartbreak for him in the finals and a lot of close calls near misses. And, you know, so here's a guy who is a finals MVP and who eventually becomes an NBA champion, who is one of the all-time greats of his era as a player. You and I,

Logan, have seen plenty of guys who rise from player to coach or player to GM or whatever else and not everybody can make that transition. And Jerry coached too. So he, he's, he's a lot of he plays. He coaches, he becomes one of the greatest team executives, not just in the NBA, but in any sport. So his contributions to the Lakers, all to respect to Kobe and Shaq and Magic and Kareem and everybody, but no one can quite match the totality of Jerry West's contributions when you consider all the roles he played and in building and rebuilding. And again, like, they went through some, you know, some rough years there after Showtime starts to disintegrate, right, through age and magic having to retire due to HIV.

And, you know, the Lakers are in the wilderness for, you know, 12 years before they win a championship. In Laker years, that 12 years might as well have been 50. You know, some teams would be grateful to win a title every 12 years or make a finals appearance every 12 years. 12 years was an eternity for the Lakers. I remember when the Lakers won in 2000. We don't have to go on that path of like my age when that happened. But I remember when that happened and they were like, they didn't even win a title. or even get to the finals since 89.

And I'm like, that's only 11 years. I feel like, you know, and I grew up in the shadow of the Golden State Warriors. And I'm like, the lawyers would take that every 11 years go to the finals at that point in time. And it was a big deal for them to get to the finals and kind of restore order in a sense. And the Lakers are kind of on the precipice of that right now, right? Where they, now they're, now it's about to go to a down swing and it's about to it. And people forget, like, no, they did still win a title in 2020, right? But that's how the Lakers are.

And that's what he was responsible for taking out of the relative ashes, if you will. Yeah, I mean, look, Lakers exceptionalism is a real thing. And that race with the Celtics, that eternal race for the most banners. And of course, the Celtics are about to pull ahead again. They're about to get number 18, breaking the tie with the Lakers. Now, if Laker fans want to get petty about it and say that, you know, most of those banners were hung way back in the era of black and white TVs, that's, that's fine. The Lakers have won more since 1980, for sure.

Well, our boss will say that they didn't win them all in L.A. So they don't count either. So, you know, there's pettiness on both sides, Howard. There is pettiness on both sides. I got no dog in this fight. I don't care. But yeah, and it's, look, it's a fun debate that they can have at it. But that total matters to both franchises. They're paying attention. I remember Jeannie Bus and Wick Grosbeck, the owner of the Celtics, were on a stage together Was it at a Sloan conference? I think it was a Sloan conference where they did a panel together.

And, you know, they're very civil and kind to each other. And I think, you know, they're fine on that level. But when you're a Celtic, the hatred for the Lakers runs deep and vice versa. And that rivalry is intense and it's real. And it matters all the way up to the ownership level. And so, yeah, all of that, all that comes into play. the Lakers are never just you know

battling with the other 29 teams they're battling history they're battling their own history their own ghosts their their own greatness and all the the legends who have come before them and when LeBron retires sometime in the next presumably

couple of years the race to find the next Laker great like that's it'll be all consuming because this is not going to be like oh okay well you know what I had the heat won a couple of championships with LeBron and Wade and Bosch. Then LeBron left. And then, you know, Wade finally retires.

And all right, we'll build something else. And we'll see what what Jimmy Butler can do for us. That's, you don't just do that in L.A. It's all right. Kobe's gone. Who's, you know, I mean, when Kobe retired. Who's the heir parent to his, to his impact? And it took years before they got LeBron.

And they swung and missed on a bunch of people. And that stuff weighs heavily for this franchise. And Jerry West knew it better than anybody. You referenced, we've referenced Kobe a lot in this. I feel like him and Jerry are tethered. And it's kind of wild and morbid to just see that they're both dead. You know, like it's really sad. But I always think about when I think about the relationship, Kobe and Jerry,

just the reverence overall of what that players had for Jerry West, right? And I think about it. I cover the Warriors, but I came a little bit after. after Jerry left. But I do remember reading about, and hearing anecdotally, like his impact, but I do remember reading about Jerry West's impact when it came to Kobe and Shaq, right, where they were always bickering. And as general manager, Jerry West had to be in the middle of that, right,

and put out a lot of fires specifically, you know, when they, you know, got into it. And then ultimately, you know, having to hire Phil Jackson to lead them to a title. which came with its own set of budding of heads. You know, Jerry West didn't necessarily want Bill Jackson to be the coach, had to bite his tongue to hire him. But what was the reverence like? Let's go to Kobe and Shaq. What kind of reverence did they have specifically for Jerry West?

And how did that manifest in their relationship? And if Jerry West wasn't there, how do you think that relationship would have gone? Do you think it would have combust it even before then? Then it did in 2004? They both considered him. a father figure of sorts. They both revered him. They both trusted him and they both sought his counsel while playing for him. And even after Jerry had left the franchise, the other note on that,

you know, morning after the 2000 championship is that so Jerry that morning, you know, as I note, he's, he's kind of, you know, just very angsty about everything. And not sure of his own future. And sure enough, two months later is when he decided to walk away from the Lakers. Not a retirement. Exactly. But he walked away from the Lakers. It was all. just too much for him. So he goes to Memphis. Jerry was still counseling Kobe from a distance and Shaq from a distance. Shaq eventually gets traded to Miami. Still, like, and Kobe in particular, I think maybe with Shaq it might have waned over the years, but Kobe in particular maintained that relationship with Jerry throughout. They were really close. And you saw it,

you know, when Kobe died in 2020 and Jerry West was on set with the inside the NBA guys, you know, doing their tribute to Kobe and Jerry talking about his relationship with Kobe, like how deeply, deeply affected he was because I think, you know, to Jerry, Kobe was like another son. And they were really close. And when Jerry left in 2000, the reason I reference it is that partially because even when he was gone, they all looked to him at times, but also that, you know, they win two more championships. But it does continually fret. And Phil Jackson did, I think, a really great job overall of pulling them back together. Every season, it was kind of like a fraying and a rebuilding, a fraying and a rebuilding.

But I've often wondered, all due respect to Mitch Cupcheck, who succeeded Jerry as head of basketball operations, but Jerry had such a powerful presence because of who he was, because of his force of personality, because of his status, because of just the way he connected with people. I've sometimes wondered, like, if Jerry were still there through that period, would it have been a little smoother. Shack and Kobe were always going to end up at odds on some level because of just their disparate personalities

and the way they both kind of conducted themselves. But I do wonder, like Jerry was a really important bridge and a mutual confidant. And you know, I don't know that there were too many people who could have kept those guys

on the same page, but you know, Jerry was one of the few. How much of the day-to-day working environment change in the years after Jerry left in 2000. That's a hard question to answer, Logan, only in that by the time Jerry leaves, again, he's kind of receded a little bit more to the background anyway, his own choice. Phil Jackson is a larger than life type of coach, right?

I think there was a story of like Phil Jackson. Phil was like, we saw this in the last dance. Phil was a guy that it was about team. And if you weren't in the immediate 15 guy group, you were an outsider. And I do remember reading, I think it might have been in Perlman's, that there were a couple of times where feel like kicked Jerry out of practice, right? Like I think by the end of the

locker room, excuse me. And by the end of that 2000 season, Jerry West didn't feel like he was a part of this. He felt like Fields' outsized influence kicked him out of a, kicked his influence out for in a certain way, right? He didn't feel as much ownership as he once did with the teams. Like that 99-2000 season was really, really hard for him.

This is not. to defend Phil doing that because I think you've got to walk a little bit softer when you're coming in as the outsider and recognize what Jerry West meant. But Jerry's, you know, Jerry is pretty sensitive. Jerry, you know, there was, he felt everything as a slight. And, you know, a different GM might have looked at it and said, you know what, if this is how Phil thinks it's best to team build or to pull his guys together is to have the locker room be about just the players and coaches and maybe whatever trainers, equipment manager. That's a fair premise.

But when you're using that to tell Jerry West to leave a locker room, when he is, again, like a living Laker legend and maybe the most important one or certainly among the most important, that's a tough beat. So, yeah, things like that weighed on him. Phil's relationship with Jeannie Buss back then weighed on Jerry. I think he just felt more and more like it, it was not his organization anymore. And they were classy from the beginning because Phil knew that Jerry didn't want to hire him from day one.

He knew that, you know, like that, that was a thing. There was a little pettiness on both sides for sure. Anytime you have more than one larger than life figure in the same place trying to run the place, you know, now that Phil was ever going to like say, like, I'm going to be the GM. But it was more just the fact that it's, there's not enough oxygen. It's just like Shaq and Kobe in a way. Like like, so there's just not enough oxygen in the room. enough space for everybody's egos and self-image.

But even people close to Jerry back then, I remember telling me when he left that he was irrationally, and that was a word that one of the muse was that he was like irrationally bothered by Phil and Jeannie and by some of these other things that just made him uncomfortable. He was still Jerry Freakin West. Like, it was his operation. But Phil was a pretty imposing figure himself. And as the coach who's talking to the media every day, he, He's the most prominent public figure.

And again, Jerry by choice had receded to the background those days. So, you know, it could have worked. It might have been unwieldy, but it could have worked, you know, beyond that. But Jerry chose to walk away at that time. Yeah. And then Jerry has this second life. I mean, this third or fourth life. There's just, it's so interesting to see the back half of Jerry West's executive career.

because he leaves the Lakers and then, you know, gets the Memphis job of Dress Powell Gasol who ends up being a Laker, right? And then, you know, he goes to the Warriors and has another life there. And then he goes to the Clippers.

But I want to kind of, I'm wrangling my thoughts in real time, but I want to just kind of sit in the moment of him as a gym. What about him made him such a great GM? that what about maybe, you know, was it his playing career? Like, what do you think? What were the qualities that made him a great GM in one of the defining GMs of his generation? I think it's a combination of things.

And it's a really great question. And it's funny, you'd think I would have thought about the wise and hows of Jerry being a creative before. And I don't, honestly, it's not something I really thought about that much. But I think it's, you know, partially it's, not every player has an eye for talent, right? players are sometimes the worst assessors of other people's talents about, you know, draft this guy or I want that guy as a teammate. Sometimes the players don't, but Jerry had an eye for talent and for fit.

Also, he could spot phonies. What's the, what's the story of him spotting a phony? Like, what was it? Not even spotting a phony, but like, what's a great story about Jerry West looking through bullshit and being like, yeah, I don't like this. I won't, I won't name names because it's not fair, but I mean, I remember a conversation with him. 10 years ago where we got on some tangent and I mentioned somebody and I said, yeah, well, this guy is a great player. And first of all, Jerry hated our overuse of the word great.

He did lecture me. Like, people use that word too much. Like, you know, we cheapen the word by calling everybody great. And another reporter yesterday reminded me that he said, did the same thing with Superstar, that we throw that one around too often. And he's probably right on both counts. And yeah, so he's telling me this one player, he's like, that guy, you know, you guys think he's great because he puts up these numbers, but, you know, he's, you know, da-da-da-da-da.

Like for Jerry, when I say he's spot a phony, I mean more like he'd see through. If somebody wasn't really serious about the game, he knew it, right? Like, there are any number of guys in the league, including All-Stars, who what separates the All-Stars from the superstars, the true superstars, the true superstars love the game and are dedicated to the game and committed to an almost obsessive level. And then there's the guys who are good just because they're good, because they've got some natural talent and did a certain requisite amount of work. But Jerry always knew who the real ones were to use a phrase. Like he understood, I want to say instinctively, but by, you know, observationally.

So what sets them apart as an executive, I think, in part is that he could separate the stars by stats versus the stars by actual commitments to the game and passion for the game. And then I think the credibility of course that he had by the accomplishments he had again doesn't always translate magic johnson wasn't a very good team executive um there have been others who you know michael jordan wasn't a very good team executive it doesn't always translate uh but having the gravitas of that career you know it matters if if you have you know some muscle behind it so i think all those things and then i think there's this too a lot of teams in this league especially in this era but even in the past, some teams are content just to play it safe.

The whole lesson of the Shaq and Kobe summer of 96 is that Jerry West wasn't playing anything safe. He saw something at Kobe that very few others did. And he made sure to do everything possible to get him. And Shaq at the time of that contract, we could look back now and go like, of course the Lakers should make an all outbid to poach Shaq from Orlando. Orlando didn't even want to break that bread for him in 96. No, Orlando put a cap on. how much they were willing to, how far they were willing to go monetarily.

Jerry West put everything on the line. I know it's really hard. Including his own health, by the way, too. He was in the hospital after he signed Shaq and made that deal for COVID. He put himself in the hospital. Because he's a stress machine. But he also did take risk. And the thing is, it's hard to view this in 2024 as this big risk.

When we look back and see that they went to four finals and won three championships and had all the success that they did, there was no guarantee. any of that was going to happen at the time that he trades for Kobe's draft rights and goes all out to sign Shaq and flushes his whole roster to make room for them. And it didn't look great after the next two seasons or next two or three seasons because what, the season that they did that right after Kobe's rookie year, they lose to Utah, I believe, and I think they lost to Utah the second year after that. And Shaq had a knee injury and like, you know, and then Kobe, like, they both had injuries. Kobe's skinny. Kobe's still finding his way. Kobe's too impetuous. Kobe wants too much too soon.

He's a showboat. Kobe and Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, they've got this crowded backcourt. They got to sort through all that. Like there's all these different things. Del Harris, you know, was good enough to coach them to 60 wins, but didn't command enough of Kobe and Shaq's attention

to be able to take them much further. So he gets fired. Like there's just, there's a lot. There's a lot. And none of it was guaranteed. And Jerry West is the one who said, I'm betting everything on these two because I believe because he has that much conviction

and that's the real problem among a lot of NBA teams today and among a lot of executives. They lack the conviction and the confidence to do what has to be done. And Jerry West, that was never a problem. And he was like this forest gun figure. I just referenced like where he was going. Like he's also had a big influence on Kevin Durant

going to the Warriors. He ends up going to the Clippers. He ended on bad terms with the Warriors. I don't think they want to, he didn't, from what I recall, they, it's, he didn't get paid the way that he wants to. They didn't pay it. They don't want to pay him as much as he would like. And he took that as a slight two-year point. And then, you know, goes to the clippers. And everything that I keep thinking about is his relationship with the Lakers when it was all in the later years, right? On paper, he's supposed to be the guy that's supposed to be in your organization for a very long time. I think about the back court he shared with Elgin Baylor,

by the time they were both at the end of their runs, they weren't associated with the Lakers other than their run in the 60s and early 70s. How much did that mess with Jerry West that he wasn't tethered to the Lakers beyond 2000? It hurt him. It definitely hurt him. Don't need to get into all the soap opera drama of it all. But I mean, you know, we talked about why Jerry left and when he left,

But yeah, he goes off to, you know, he takes some time off, eventually runs the Grizzlies. And then, yes, as you mentioned, consultant to the Warriors, consultant to the Clippers, certainly was among the more influential voices in key moments for the Warriors and for the Clippers, as they each built up their rosters during his time with them. But it always heard him that there was no open door to come back to the Lakers and that he seemed to be on the outside there. And look, I don't want to dwell on this one, but we even saw it as the statements came out yesterday, the clippers are the ones to announce Jerry West's passing, not the Lakers. And the Warriors send out a statement, Adam Silverson's out a statement, Michael Jordan sends out a statement. It took a long time for the Lakers to get anything out there.

And you know, you don't want to read too much into things, but I think that that's an indication that shows just how far apart the organization and Jerry West had become. And among all the other things that weighed on Jerry West, because everything did, yeah, that was right up there. The Lakers always pride themselves as being the team that brings all of us alumni back, right? And that's something that you see on every big night. I was fortunate enough to go see Kobe's Jersey retirement and be in the building for that. You know, you had the Kareemes, you have the Michael Cooper's, you have the magics, you have all these luminaries that always tend to have these family reunions with the, the Lakers. with the Lakers on their biggest nights. But there was always just a missing piece.

Like, what lesson can the Lakers learn from how they treated or how that relationship, the relationship between them and Jerry West? What kind of lessons you think they can learn going forward with how they have relationships with former players and former staffers? I mean, I think by and large, they've done a decent job of keeping up, you know, connections to their alums.

Jerry was just a different case. I'm guessing there are layers there that I'm not privy to. Others maybe. Maybe it'll all come out at some point. But I think it's just a special case. It was a very specific Jerry West versus Lakers chasm or Lakers versus Jerry, however you want to look at it. But I don't think that applies to like the relationship with Magic or Kareem or, you know, Kobe when he was still with us or Shaq. I think, you know, even if you look at, you know, their TV partner with Spectrum, right? Like, James Worthy's on there as a regular and Robert Orie's on there all the time. Derek Fisher's been on there at times. I think in the past maybe Rick Fox was. And they've had their alumni nights, I think, and they've kept people in the fold. But they could probably do more. And I think you just have to be careful to nurture those relationships over time. And if you have somebody of the stature of Jerry West and who's made the contributions he has,

you go the extra mile to make sure that that relationship doesn't fray. And if it does find a way to patch it up before it's too late. What's your lasting memory of Jerry West? I'm not sure if there's one lasting memory. I think it's just more, it's more of a lasting feeling than anything else. It's that Jerry West of all the people I've covered in 27 years of being around this league, nobody felt bigger when he was in the room. you know i i've been i covered shack for seven years craned my neck for seven years shack is huge but after a while

you get a little numb to the size of NBA players and you get numb to the fame of NBA players i'm much more in awe if i walk into a room with like one of my favorite actors or musicians or something than i am if i walk into a room with a famous NBA player it's just the job but something about jerry west and i didn't grow up on the lakers like you i grew up in the bay area i never saw jerry west I knew him from a distance as just a legend and an icon of the game. And then as an executive who I covered, but there was just something about Jerry. It always gave me like I got a little nervous around him.

There's an intensity about the man and a gravitas about the man. And so there's no one memory about a conversation or a moment. It's more just about like, man, he always put me a little bit on edge. And not necessarily in a bad way. It's just a reality. There was just something about the man in his presence. That is Howard Beck. You can read him on the ringer and you can read his piece on Jerry West.

Jerry West and the burden of being the logo. Thanks so much Howard for coming on, but. Ruin of the Week was brought to you by Arbys. You don't have to shoot a ball to score big. Just head to Arby's and get one of their thick, juicy burgers. They've got two types. A deluxe burger with all the fixings, American cheese, lettuce, tomato, onions, and pickles. And then they took all that and added more cheese and added six pieces of crispy bacon to get the big cheesy burger.

Trust the meat esperts at Arby's to make a burger the right way. Try Arby's burgers today. Download the Arby's app and order ahead to skip the line. Arby's, we have the meats. Limited time off for participating in U.S. locations while supplies last. Roger Bell, who is your real one of the week? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Someone's not prepared. Wow. Someone came to work now. prepared. It's Friday. I'm rarely prepared, but I happened was you really, I was under the impression from the start of the pot that the real one of the week was going to be Howard's segment. So yeah, I was I was not prepared. But no, I give, I mean, this is an easy one, right? Like, this is an easy one right now. Real one of the week is going to be Jalen Brown. Yes. It's going to be Jailen Brown for, you know, the performance throughout the playoffs. But,

but the realest part of it was his, you know, moxie and his staying on his spot with like, yo, I've been trying to tell you guys this. There aren't that many dudes out there that are better than me on either side of this ball. And I'm not afraid to tell you that. And I'm going to say it,

but then I'm going to go out and back it up. And that's some real one type of stuff. So I'm going to give Jaylen Brown my real one of the week. I'm going to double down on that. And we don't normally do that. but I think it's well-deserved. I really do. I think that he has,

from everything that he has kind of went through over the last couple of years, just having to put the blinders on because he thought that Ben Simmons' success was an indictment on what his position in the league was, right? Brandon Ingram's success is an indictment on where Jalen Brown is in the league. And I know for a fact,

well, maybe not Ben Simmons. He doesn't seem to care about basketball. But Brandon Ingram would trade places with Jalen in a heartbeat. You know? And I think throughout that whole time, right? And to have to go through that and then have to figure it out in the finals, right, at 22 and lose in the way that you did. And then you have people saying, and I don't care, I get stuff in my mentions all the time.

Oh, we did. There was nobody in Boston that didn't think that Jalen Brown was worth 300 million. Bullshit. We remember how the reaction was when Jalen Brown. got to the bag, we remember a lot of people saying he didn't deserve it. And then to go through that, and then last season,

how it ended, right, where he, let's be honest, he failed, right? Like, game seven,

it's your time. Jason Tatum's hurt. You come up empty. Then you have the summer that you had, and you prove all of us wrong. Respect. Respect to Jalen Brown. Real one of the week.

Also, before we get out of here. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. You know the motherfucking vibes. Tap in. I'm pretty sure we'll see Raja.

I'm like 85% sure we'll see Raja on Monday. 77. 77. Respect. Respect. Can't have you pulling your calf or anything. Anyways. See y'all on Monday.

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