The Ringer NBA Show - Luka and Kyrie Switch Roles to Win Game 1. Plus, a Farewell to the Nuggets, and the Pacers’ Next Move. | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos give their immediate reactions to Luka and Kyrie carrying the Mavs to a big road win in Game 1 over the Timberwolves. They talk about Kyrie’s big first half and Luka’s big fourth quarter, Anthony Edwards's struggles, and what they expect moving forward in the series (9:07). Then, they talk about Boston sneaking past Indiana in Game 1, and what each team needs to improve on the rest of the series (41:17). Buy tickets to our live show in Los Angeles here! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Social: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer

is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again? Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And welcome to this very special edition of Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, joining me Big Was. And live from Minneapolis, Rob Mahoney, Rob, did you get a Nas Reid tattoo before today's game one? Not yet. Too much of a backlog on those. You really got to wait your turn.

But I'm hoping to get it. Do you have any placement suggestions? Forehead? Is that an option? Why not? What's the font choice on the Nasreid tattoo? It seems a little too simple for a guy that's doing a lot these days. But I think that's the idea, right?

It's a pretty simple serif kind of Times New Roman-y font. Because Nas read is a very matter-of-fact expression. Nas read. See, me, I would go with like an old English type of font. You feel me? Like just go classic with the. the tattoos, boy. Like they have for the Detroit D for the Tigers.

Yeah, exactly. I like that. Exactly. That's nice. Well, Rob, you aren't in Denver right now for this Western Conference finals matchup. That's true. Yeah. What is a prize, one might say.

Yeah. In fact, you know, I'm in my hotel in Minneapolis right now because Justin told me specifically, do not do this podcast from the arena. I need the haranguing needed to be done at full volume in a way that would be unchecked by arena personnel. And look, I dimmed the lighting here in my hotel room. I thought just let's get the mood right if, if asses are going to be tasted.

Yeah. Close the blinds. Yeah, I just didn't want you to be on the other end of a very loud berating as like Nikiel Alexander Walker was like walking by. I thought that might be a little awkward for you. But no. A little bit.

Guys, I'm going to take the high road here because. Yeah, right. I just, you know, I know it would be. be a new experience for you guys to have come out on top of this bet. But you know, I'm right so often these days that, you know, there's really not much I could brag about. It's just commonplace

at this point. Are you, though? Are your wins really piling up so much, Justin? And I really just love that because the audience, we don't need to take them behind the curtain too much. But like, trust me, in the third quarter, when the wolves were getting their asses handed to them, Justin barrier was done. He was defeated. He was like, God damn it. And now like a Phoenix, he's, you know, arose from the ashes and he's back. I will say, though, I felt like the nuggets going up three, two was a real test of my conviction. You know, I was down. I had to walk through the river of sticks pretty much in order to come back on the other side. But I found my faith again in a higher power. and that higher power is my takes.

So I will never walk away from my beliefs yet again. And, you know, I just, I'm feeling full of me pretty good right now. I do think that's beautiful. And I'm glad that you've come to a greater clarity with yourself. And look, did Waz and I put a lot of faith in the nuggets to make the finals, despite all their limitations? Yes, we clearly did. Did they get worked by a Wolf's team that absolutely had their number?

Yes. Also, yes. And I think we just got to take it on the final. the chin from that. There's really no coming back from this for us. It is what it is. However, I take great solace in the fact that the Boston Celtics don't scare me. Not even a little bit. I still feel great about my Celtic skepticism, even if, you know, the past few days have been me avoiding, you know, ESPN and other people's coverage about the nuggets and what their offseason needs to be yada yada yada i felt great after watching game one of the boston series so i'm not

too mad about my own particular take yeah if we can put an asterisk on this for justin he was only kind of backed into the timber wolves corner with his take because the actual take was you supporting the celtics and believing that they would go further in the playoffs and the nuggets again indisputably true we can't break out of that one i will say this to justin's credit his entire bet Mostly was like, yes, Boston, I think, is the best team in the NBA, which I think was quite erroneous. However, part two, it was buttressed by the fact that they played in the far inferior conference. So, like, his freaking decision-making was sound in that regard.

So we got to give him credit for that. I'm hearing a lot of, like, shit sandwiches right now, where he's, like, got to give him credit, but nine different things that he's wrong about. But also, you got to give him credit. right now. Justin is taking the relative high road and we're just digging ditches on the side of that high road and trying to shove him into it. Yeah, I hope Isaiah is not only recording this, but blogging the various takes so we could bring this back up during the finals. No, I would say that I'm free and clear of this bet and so I can give just clearheaded analysis from here on now.

But I will say we do need to settle said bet. And that probably has become more contentious than the bet itself, believe it or not. It hasn't really. I've thrown some ideas out there. Rob has swatted them away like Victor Webbenyama. I thought that they were pretty clever and fun and good for the podcast, but Rob refuses to indulge me. Those are all extracurricular to the parameters of the bet, which was Watson and I bet you dinner. And you're trying to get me to wear various costumes to the live show.

Well, you also said separately that you would be okay with doing something that benefited the pod. And so I'm like, I'm trying to come up with things that we can like use for the actual show because no one's going to want to watch us eat dinner together. I mean, unless you guys want to like feed me one by one. We're just feeding various grapes as if he's like Nero or something. Honestly, that could be pretty good for the live show. But ultimately, I think Justin, you and I disagree as to what would benefit the pod and what would make us complete hacks. And, you know, some of us are out here trying to be professionals.

You know? Complete hacks. Wow. Yeah. First he- Disrespect of prop comedy. That's crazy. I'm glad by that. I'm glad you brought that up because Rob did take a shot at my various props, likening my humor to carrot top, which I took great umbrage with. So I brought myself a little prop here. I don't know if you could see it. This is what- What does it say? Coward Tracker. This is what we're calling the coward tracker.

Yeah. We're going to, and it has a little leprechaun with like a pot of. of gold could also be like a bowl of lucky charms, if you will. It's really up to the interpretation. You know, I'm an artist. So I think we got to keep track of how many pods we do until you settle this bet. So this is the coward tracker. We're up to one pod, ladies and gentlemen. For those of you who are listening in your car on the subway in New York City, you know, on a hike, Justin is holding up a whiteboard that says Coward Tracker

There's a makeshift picture of a leprechaun I'm assuming Or someone of Celtic descent I'm not sure which one And a pot of gold or Lucky Charms So yeah just painting the visual For the listeners there Yeah the lepricon you have drawn is Very evocative Justin of that like late

Otts local news story about the lepracon You're right Well, you know, we get our inspiration from various places, you know. It's true. Yes, yes. We'll have the coward tracker on hand until we figure out the end of this bet. So it does not end right now. Keeps going.

Of course not. Well, have you given any thought to your cuisine of choice as to where we are taking you to this dinner to settle the bed in part? You can feed me anything as long as you're wearing a leprechaun costume while doing so. This was not part of the deal. All right. Well, we'll give you another podcast to think it over. but the car tracker is here and not the ready. But you were live and in person for the better of the two conference finals game.

This seemed like a real joy from afar. How was it live? Oh, this game absolutely ripped. You know, it had everything. It had high level, hard fought playoff basketball, some hilarious moments involving video replay and the announcement of it. A great Minnesota crowd. And I think most importantly, just Haymaker after Haymaker down the stretch of this game.

It was well played for all the reasons. that Celtic spacers was kind of poorly played down the stretch. Yeah, so I just, I think the big thing coming out of this one, at least from afar, was it seemed like Kyrie and Luca pretty much changed their traditional roles this postseason wads where it seemed like Kyrie was very aggressive to start 13 points on nine field go attempts in that first quarter. Then Luca closed them out. I think it's going to be pretty tough.

We could talk about all the various aspects of this, the absurd amount of three-pointers that the wolves took in this game. But I ultimately think it came down to the stars that's doing an enough starshit at the beginning and the end. Yeah, Kyrie in the first half, particularly dropping 24 points. I think he was like 11 of 13 to something ridiculous like that. Could not miss a shot. Crazy.

And honestly, what struck me the most was thinking back to, you know, last time Kyrie was a great play in the playoffs was 2016. If we're talking about like a long, extended great run of play, that was eight years ago. God damn, we're old. And his style was just way different. different. Now, like, back then, Kyrie would get the ball and he kind of probe and he kind of try to find a spot and it be this kind of drawn out thing. These days, it's just quick hitters.

This guy makes quick, boom, boom decisions. They run these quick actions for him. They run some like Dane Lillard type Terry Stott stuff for this dude out of timeouts and shit. I'm just like, yo, this guy has completely evolved his game since getting to the Mavericks. And I know I'm, I'm sick of it myself of the Kyrie love fest that's going on on this pod, considering how much I've trashed the guy in the last two years. But it's just been incredible to see. And knowing that Dallas has two of these guys down the stretch that they can go to in really tight possessions, man, it's just scary, scary stuff. Yeah, I think we need to ISO on Kyrie for a decent segment here, because not only was he an exceptional shot maker and shot creator, the shots he was getting to

and in particular some of this full court, like dead sprint, left-handed layup with your body contorted, those are not shots that even a vast majority of NBA players can make, the overwhelming majority of NBA players can make. And the fact that he does it and makes it look so easy,

I think has clearly incredible basketball benefit for the Dallas Mavericks, but also gave them a way to get behind Minnesota's defense sometimes. And when you think about how they picked apart and how they unsettled the best defensive team in the NBA, a lot of it was Lucas drawing two to the ball and finding guys inside and Kyrie getting behind the defense or weaving

among all these bigs and figuring out how to score among all of that Minnesota length. Yeah, I thought it was interesting when Ant was on the dais taking questions after the game. He was talking about what a jarring difference it was from the previous two series of this one where after the big's coming all the way up, now they're in drop and like what to do there. I think on the flip side, like the question I think of this series is what are the, uh, Wold's going to do against Kyrie and Luca. It seemed like any time that they were in drop, it just, like, they were carving them up.

The big's got a bunch of lobs off of that. I think they scored 62 points in the paint the Dallas Mavericks did. They barely scored any on three-pointers. I think this was like one of five playoff games in which a team lost the three-point differential by 12 or more and still won the game. But you saw they were successful on blitzes, but was like, how much can you actually blitz? for an entire game against a guy like Luca who's finding guys even when you do it.

The Luca matchup presented a major problem that I'm not sure yet how they're going to solve it. One, their size just isn't bothering him at all. In the pick and roll, Rudy's in the drop, Cat is in the drop. Lucas put in the guy, whether there's Jada McDaniel's aunt, whoever the hell you want to put on him. He's putting him in jail, putting him on his back. and unlike, you know, when it's like Jalen Brunson or when it's Jamal Murray and you get the guy in your back

and you're six foot two and the dude behind you is six nine, he can bother your vision, bother your shot, bother you from behind. But Luca, that is not the case. So the defender that got screened can't bother his shot from the back. Now the big man who's all the way in the drop,

Luca's going to make the floater. If he comes up, that's an easy alley you blob. If one of the wings help, he's sprayed it out to shoot us. It's like, fuck. What do you do right now when Luca is this dialed in? You know, he just looked like an absolute maestro out there. Yeah, and when you think about the defensive matchups for the wolves,

they had some flexibility against the Nuggets, right? They could afford to put ants somewhere else and then shift him on to Murray late, as they did in the closeout game. I don't think they have the option of putting him on Luca. Like Luca just body through Ant whenever that matchup presented itself. McDaniels at least has the length to recover and get back into plays. And contest in a way that makes it hard for Luca. That said,

Donchage was just kind of bumping him off too and hitting mid-range jumpers. And you've got to have to live with some of those. I think what you can't live with is Ant guarding him when he just doesn't have the strength to withstand Lucas barrages right now. And if you can't play around with those matchups, and it basically has to be McDaniels on Luca all the time, that means Ant is going to be exhausted in this game because he's going to be chasing around Kyrie for the most part. He's trying to get rid of Derek Jones Jr. on the other end and then beat the big and then beat the multiple Mavericks defenders who are swiping down and making things hard on him.

I think this is just going to be an exhausting series for Anthony Edwards. And that's going to be the reality of it. He looked exhausted. Reggie Miller on the broadcast mentioned 90 times that he looked exhausted. He played 41 minutes in this game. And it wasn't that long ago that they were just in that big game seven. So it's understandable to an extent. But I think this is why it doesn't matter. It does not matter, which inside the NBA guys really took the Mavs, the Wolf to Task for.

I think this is why I favored the Mavs slightly when I was talking to Rob yesterday. And he tried to backdoor me into coming up with a take for this series, which I appreciated. I was having a conversation with you and asked you a simple topical question about the ongoing NBA playoffs. I know. I also noticed that that conversation also took the piss out of me in terms of like how how much I was going to really go at the Nuggets thing today. So I see what you're doing. No, but I thought Luca would be a different test for the physicality and just the

ferocity of that wolf's defense. It's just like he's just so big. It's like, what can you really do to him to throw him off there? And then Kyrie has that sort of electric style that Murray can do at times, but he just seemed like he was coming and going depending on the health of his leg. And so like, I was actually thinking about this as like a topic to talk about today, like who is the best back court in the NBA? It's not even close. And it's almost like having two dynamic scoring guards now is a counter to what everyone else is doing because everyone's loaded up in the front

court. Well, that only works because one of the dynamic scoring guards is also one of the best passers in the league. The passes in the game. Yeah. Sure. If it's just two scores, it doesn't work so well. And, Was, I don't know how you were thinking about this, but coming into this game, my thought was the longer this thing goes, the harder it's going to be for Luca, and it's going to wear on him over time, trying to score over all of these bigs inside. And you did see that sum in this game where he would get inside against Rudy or Kat and try to find a pass and it wouldn't be there. And he was just kind of falling over,

like literally losing his footing trying to find plays. I don't want to overreact to one game, but that's the biggest difference for me coming out of game one versus going into it is now it kind of feels like the longer this goes on, the harder is going to be for aunt to create. And that Luca, for, you know, his job was difficult. He was hitting difficult shots, but the Mavs just felt like they were getting a little more downhill than the wolves were for the most part. I think Luca was just playing with such freedom and he felt unencumbered, right? Like, it's so different to create the shot coming off the pick and roll. And most guys come off that pick and roll and they got the guy behind them, when they're much stronger and much bigger,

they're flying into the freaking lane. Lucas's like, no, I'm going to take my little time with it and get into this little floater, get into this, you know, step back from 14 feet away. He's so calm when he's coming off of that pick and roll, particularly against the drop where the decisions are just right in front of him. It's not something when he has to make a quick read and get off of it. He's just like processing, processing.

And obviously he's got a basketball super. computer and that can happen where I think they need to push them into, it's creating one-on-one. It's just like, you know what? You should have to dribble seven freaking times, beat the guy, get to your step back, get to the lane, finish over length. I think they should be trying to push them more to that and make it. And again, not creating one-on-one against, you know, Mike Conley or, you know, Alexander Walker or some of the skinny guys.

If Rudy has to switch on him, I've seen Rudy do a decent job against him in the past. He's not going to blow by you. Even if he does get by you, you got the length, you got the size. And I think that's what you got to do. Because I think that's when Luca has gone down in the past. It's when he's had to do too much creating on his own possession after possession after possession. Today, he got to just play chess with these guys. And you could see some of that, Justin, in terms of the wolves clearly wanted to take away the corner threes for the maps.

Very few of those attempts, which is part of why Minnesota ended up just making so many more threes and attempting so many more threes than the maps. But that left open, Lively and Gafford, to just feast inside so often. Yeah, so PJ Washington ended up two for eight from three in this game. And it was so funny because it felt like he could not hit the broadside of a barn when he was getting above the break three. But as soon as he got one right in the pocket in the corner, it was like, wow, isn't that beautiful? And also, I think we need to talk about lively once again because, like, he's the vertical threat is just like what's unlocking that extra bit of Luca and Kahn. hiree. It's just like, and the beginning of the game, I jot it down. It's like lively looked like half of Rudy Gobert. Like, he's just so thin in comparison to the monsters that the wolves have. But

toward the game there, you saw what his activity and his ability to do enough of passing off of short rolls and whatnot does for that. And I even said this on Twitter that, like, I think he got a legitimate Kobe assist off of that one Luca off the backboard miss where he just put it back in. And I'm just like that's the type of player that he is. He's just like he does so much off of activity and his ability to just be bouncing around the rim. He was awesome in this game and it wasn't just the offense

as you're saying, the putbacks, making himself available. Man, when Cat would try to drive and find something around the rim and it got to the point later in the game where he would see Lively there and he would already start moving to pass instead. That's halfway through game one.

Derek Lively, a rookie, is having that kind of impact on an opposing all star. Just a massive performance from him and exactly what the Mabs need from him or Gafford on a nightly basis, but obviously it's even better if you get it from both. The paint was shut down tonight. The wolves, when they got there, it was chaos. When they weren't getting there, they were just scared and throwing it out and throwing it away and taking bag shots. The paint was like the way that they just, you know, because again, even as enthusiastic as I've been about Denver's competence on defense, that shit ain't got nothing

to do with paint protection. So this is a completely different animal we're talking about in terms of when you do break the plane on the perimeter defense. And it's like, nah, kid, you don't want to do that. And then the wing help. These are lengthy guys, man. These guys can bother your shot, bother your vision, get into the passing lanes, muck it up for you, get deflections. Like the way that they couldn't figure out how to get into the lane.

and I hesitate to do this because I've been such a Rudy guy all playoffs long and been annoyed by people killing him when he hasn't played, you know, at his very best. But it's going to be tough, man. Lane is going to be tough with Rudy in the game where the Mavs are clearly not scared of him. I thought the wolves did a good job. A couple of lob plays.

One of the first plays of the game, Rudy got Kairi switched on to him, and drew a foul immediately because he was right underneath the basket. They threw it to him and he drew a foul. And I was like, man, it's really cool that Rudy is no longer that Utah guy from four years ago who would just get guarded by Pat Beverly. That being said,

he allows them to put the bigs to stay parked in the paint, never have to move because Rudy's never going anywhere. And so I'm wondering how Chris Finch is going to solve that problem as well. Yeah, if we want to come to. connect the dots of everything you just laid out there was. What the Mavs did with all those things, playing off of Rudy and the structure of their defense, they turned Anthony Edwards into a jump shooter. And he took a lot of threes, and he seemed pretty willing to do it.

And I think by and large, they were pretty decent shots. These weren't bad takes. I would say like three-fourths, yeah. But they're decent takes he was settling for relative to the player that he is. And relative to the player that the Timberwolves need him to be. And not always in rhythm. Yes, that is definitely true. But when you're him and you're seeing the drop,

or you're seeing multiple layers of defensive coverage, you're seeing someone help off of Rudy, daring whichever Timberwolf to make that pass to Rudy and challenging him to catch it cleanly and then finish before the defense can react, the Mazz clearly got away with a lot of that in this game. This is the other side of the decision-making stuff with Ant, where it's like, yeah, the threes were there for them,

but were they the best shot? And like McDaniels had success early on. He looked like the next face of the league, the next young player who was about to rock it because I think he had 19 points in this case. Sorry, the next what, Justin? Face of the league. Oh. Seems like a topical, topical subject at the ringer.com lately. Yes, there is a rankings up.

If you'd like to look at them, they are not hotly contested at all. I need to look back at my grades because I'm like, there's no way I graded these guys in the order that they came out. but that's another topic for another time. Yeah, fielding lots of questions and queries, let's say, out on the road today about our ranking. These are just the results that we came up with.

I don't know who you're looking at in order to blame here. I will say the highlight of the individual rankings was giving Tyler Hero a nine total out of 50. And it was like they have an absolute bare minimum. Sorry. No, I mean, I'm just talking about as a prospect, man. Not as like a right now, he's a cute enough player right now. But come on.

I will say just to cross the tease on that. I think the distinction between a lot of those guys was like a fraction of a point, basically. And it also factored in other things like intangibles and like, you know, Lucas histrionics and, you know, some of his injuries based on the lack of conditioning probably dinged him slightly enough to drop him to four. And that's why he's at four, but I don't think anybody actually read the rankings, let alone actually went to the website. They just saw the NBA central aggregation of it, including Damien Lillard, which Rob sent me that link. So we appreciate that. No, but anyway, I do feel like it had a good first half.

I think he had five assists. And it felt like he was doing enough of the in-between passing in order to make things work. It just felt like in that second half, they just like, they gunked up and it helped, I didn't think it helped that the Mavs were also taking off Rob, where it felt like they tried to catch up with them and match their dynamicism. Dynamisism. I almost got it there. Can you use that in the sentence, please? Country of origin. I believe Swedish. But yeah, 49 three-pointers for the wolves as a whole. They typically take 32.7 in the regular season. That's 23rd in the NBA. It's not too much.

So here's the thing, too, right? One, the Nuggets didn't have a guy they felt comfortable could guard Ant one-on-one. Clearly, they thought Kenny was too small. They felt like AG was too slow. Cool. So what ends up happening is they start over-sending the help, obviously sending the help, meaning Ant could see it coming from a mile away, make a very quick read. Denver's defense is already in rotation.

boom. And also when you break that plane, it's Yokic, it's Gordon. It's, you know, it's guys back there, but it's like you feel nice about your chances of finishing it. The wolves were, times we're breaking the plane of the defense. But it's just a different reality now against Gafford and lively, right? It's just a different proposition. And so, you know, I think obviously, Ant will, you know, he'll look at the tape, he'll be able to make better adjustment. He'll attack quicker. That was another thing. You was taking way too long to attack sometimes. Sometimes he was overpassing.

It just is what you run up against an elite defense because that's what Dallas is somehow right now. And you're a 22-year-old and you make mistakes. But I think he's shown a capacity to learn pretty quickly, not to say he's going to turn into, you know, a Luca, LeBron or something in terms of diagnosing defenses. But I think he's going to figure some stuff out as the series goes on. Yeah, we fully expect him to. There are clearly some signs of him showing his age, in particular two cross-court passes he tried to throw

that went clear into the second row. And that's the kind of stuff that's tough if you're not literally LeBron James to do, right? Those are hard reads and passes to execute against high-level defenses. But to what you were saying, Was, it's not just him trying to get into the lane and then beat Gafford and lively. Oftentimes when he's passing the ball up,

as he should, you know, create advantage and then dish off to the next guy. If the shot wasn't immediately there for, say, Jaden McDaniels, or as Waz dubbed him in our group chat, Clayton McThompson, six for nine from three from Jaden McDaniels in this game. Insane stuff. They were running place for him to take movement three-pointers, y'all.

And rightly so. Rightly so. He and Nas Reid hit a bunch of huge shots from three that kept the wolves in this game, fought back and got them leads. Really important offense. But every time they didn't have that, And those players, Jaden McDaniels, Nas Reid, anyone who's not Anthony Edwards had to put the ball on the floor and drive, they were doing so with PJ Washington and Derek Jones and Josh Green and all these guys just swiping the shit out of the ball.

And there were so many drives where guys just lost it. They just lost their dribble on the way to the basket. And this happened to Ant a couple times too. And if that is kind of the battleground for how you create offense, you're really going uphill. Like you're really going to struggle if you can't find a way to bust through some of that kind of kind of. coverage. Yeah, I mean, we said it all post all-star break, post-deadline, like the Mavs defense is legit. And it has shown up time and time again in these postseason. It's weird to say because it always felt like Luca was a little one-sided, the teams that he was playing on. But like,

they've got some guys that could throw some heft around in a way that like, honestly, I think they're just a better, more suited defense to be combating what the wolves bring than even the Nuggets. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's particularly because their guys can actually freaking go. That's the difference right now. And for me, Luca being able to create advantages just, you know, on the ball from the perimeter, just at the snap of a finger,

it's just different. And he's putting Minnesota in difficult positions. He's putting them in rotation. And that made all the difference in game one. Also, three steals. If we're going to talk about defense, Luca Donchage, huge for that defense. He's in the right spot on damn there every possession.

including in crunch time blowing up a lob from Mike Conley to Rudy Gobert that could have completely changed the outcome of this game. That was crazy. Yeah, one of those plays that was, you know, it was subtle but very effective. Can we talk about what is subtle and effective? Because I see us getting a lot of mileage out of that phrase over the next couple weeks. So what are we thinking going into game two now? Are there any obvious adjustments that you would think for the wolves or anything

that like the Mavs would have to do differently here? One thing I think the wolves can do differently, and I think looked pretty good in spots and messed up the flow of the Mavs defense a little bit, was some of the big, big pick and roll stuff. When Towns and Gobert would run pick and roll together, it seemed to kind of disorient Dallas. And they didn't do it very much,

and you understand why they might not. But selectively, if you can get into that, I think it disorients Dallas enough in their rotations and in all that kind of swiping and help that you can get some good office. out of it. I think the Mavs will be smart because I think at some point, Ant's going to find some matchups that he feels comfortable against and start exploiting those matchups on the perimeter, you know, try to get some Kyrie on them, you know, try to get

some of these other guys onto him. The Mavs, so there was that period in the beginning of the fourth quarter where Kat and Ant were on the bench. At some point there, it was like 6 to 2. And I think Minnesota was like kind of filling themselves. Like, oh, okay, yeah, we can still some minutes over this. We're up five points. And then, you know, it was a couple of Rudy got the ball and he did his Rudy Edward Cisorhands routine where he barely caught it

and then threw a rock at the rim and it was terrible. Then there was another horrible possession. And then the MAV scored twice on that. And then when Aunt and Kat came back on two of those possessions, they ran like a hybrid sort of two, three zone, almost. And they confused the hell out of them, got two more stops and scored again.

Right? So I think that's going to be where it starts getting interesting, where they start, okay, ants feeling comfortable against his matchup or cats feeling comfortable against his matchup. Let's throw a curveball of some type of zone or some type of hybrid of a man in the zone

what we used to call Red in high school. Like, I think when Jason kid. We get it. You played basketball. ball was. Whatever. I'm not doing it. It's just Jason kid, man,

defensively is so goddamn creative, y'all. That's what I'm really looking forward to, man. Yeah, game ones are all about seeing what you can get away with. Who do we not have to guard? Which role players off the bench can we steal minutes from and play? And sometimes that looks like Luke Cornett playing in the Eastern Conference finals when realistically maybe he shouldn't be. And in this series, you know, this was a, I would say a best case, Kyle Anderson game in a lot of ways.

He went five-rate from the field. And let me tell you, when he loads up that corner three against a mad's defense that is not guarding him whatsoever, it's the most dramatic thing that's happening in that arena all night. And this was a great banger of a game. But the silence that sets out as people wait to see that trebuchee cockback and release is just incredible. It's like everybody else is playing with like M16s and this guy's chucking a spear. It's really, it's really crazy to watch him shoot that shot. Maybe a musket.

You know, there's a lot of like gunpowdering and you got to clean it and you got it. It's just a lot of logistics. The sticking inside the barrel right after every single usage, fact. Listen, I made it to that episode of Shogun, by the way, so I get that one. Congratulations. We're going to get you watching. TV on a regular basis, sometime going forward, Justin.

But I think that's where it gets tricky for Minnesota, is they're probably going to have to tighten some of those things up in terms of who they are playing and when. And these guys are already going hard for pretty serious minutes. So, you know, Nas is clearly going to have to play a lot. Nikiel Alexander Walker did not really have it offensively in this game, but it's going to have to be a factor,

if only because you want someone else to throw at Kyrie in particular. Where that leaves Kyle Anderson, I don't know, what that means for the starting lineup and Mike Conley is already playing on sore Achilles from the last series these guys just came off of a seven game affair against the defending champs. It would be understandable if they were

a little run down. That's what the playoffs are all about. But you got to run through it. And you got to find ways to overcome it. I think you keep going back to slow-mo as long as he's going to keep playing like this. He was legitimately impactful in that first half. And part of that was because they probably weren't giving as much attention. And he was able to find the seams

because the seams were big shit, let's be honest. But they're already going eight deep in this game. There really isn't much more to turn from unless you really want to turn some of these Gobert minutes over to read just to get a little bit more offensive juice there. Because like, I don't know if you want to circle back to the Gobert conversation. That's always been my thing with him. I'm kind of like a moderate Gober hater. Like some of the personality stuff can be a little wearing. But like my thing is like, is he has to be dominant on defense because of what he lacks offensively. And I think you're right earlier when he's like, yeah, he's cleaned up some of that stuff.

But there's still a lot of fumbles, a lot of flip shots where it's like, what are you, what are you doing here exactly? And he's just like, he made a sombor shuffle in the, in the game of his life. So you're damn right. That was on fucking believable. But I think that would be the big chess move because they do seem to be more dynamic with Reed out there as the extra stretch, but I don't know, that feels a little abrupt to do in game two. Oh, for sure. Here's my thing. As somebody who, you know, pretty confidently picked the wolves, albeit in like seven games or

whatever, long-ass series, all the variant shit went their way in terms of the three-point luck and the lack thereof completely on the MAV side. And outside of that, in like the regular play, the MAVs seem to have their stuff together in a way more coordinated and organized manner on both ends, quite frankly, than the wolves did. I thought the wolves didn't really have a Luca plan. I thought the wolves on offense look lost. And so that gives me pause, but stranger things have happened in these postseasons alone. Yeah, and this was a very tight game.

If Kyrie Irving goes 10 of 23 instead of 12 of 23 on the hardest shots taken in this game. The wolves went. And we're having a very different conversation. So, yeah, a lot of things are going to swing. The three-point shooting is going to swing. The role players, clearly, are going to swing pretty hard from game to game. Even Lucas' shot making from the mid-range could easily rim in or out. Those are those kinds of exact one-on-one opportunities you were talking about, Justin,

that you want to dare him into. And he made enough of them to beat you, but he might not always. And so I don't even think Minnesota came into this with a bad game plan. I just think they need to problem solve Dallas's defense a little bit more effectively. I think drive the ball. I think if you're Minnesota, you're like, aunt, get downhill as much as possible. And even towns,

like especially when the three-pointer wasn't going tonight, like his most impactful plays were coming off unblocked and put back dunks. I think it got called back. But it's just like, this guy is a massive force if he wants to be. And if they're not going to put a body on him, he should leverage that. It's almost like they don't use their heft in the way that you would expect a team with basically three centers playing it a lot of times.

It's more of a finesse three-point shooting team. They let Ant be the battering ram there. But it's just like, dog, just like get into the mud and do some of the dirty work. And I think it's going to pay dividends. But like, I mean, the story of Ant's postseason thus far is that he's starting to not only see more attention, but you're seeing defenses make him think more. And so this really is kind of an amp, like, how far along are you? We've gotten to the point where like the Jordan comps are like coming and they don't seem absurd.

But it's just like, this is your crucible right now. We're going to see how far along you are. And that's really tough for a 22 year old. As much as that's an excuse like, that's what he's playing like in a game like this. Yeah, a match up like this is a progress report for Anthony Edwards. And I hear what you're saying, Justin, about wanting to get downhill and wanting to kind of get in the mud with these guys. In theory, I don't know that you want to get in the mud with the Mavs. You know, this is an incredibly physical team now.

And a team that will beat you up the more that you drive. And clearly, the wolves need to change their shot diet fundamentally. They need to be attacking more. They need to be settling less. But it's easier said than done with the way that this Mavs group is defending right now. With Fandle, it's never too late to get in on the action this NBA playoffs. Because right now, new customers get 150 bucks in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $150 to use on.

Same game parles, live bets, championship futures, exclusive markets, and so much more. Let's do Wolves minus five in game two. Yeah, I'm going to go with the wolves here. I know the maps look pretty good in that game one. Kyrie and Luca both going off, but I really don't think Ant and towns are going to have games like they had in game one. They're playing at home.

I'd like the wolves minus five in game two. So give me that. one because with Fandul, there's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sports book. Just go to fandul.com slash ringer NBA to get started, Fandual official sports betting partner of the NBA. It must be 21 plus 18 plus in D.C. and present in select states excluding North Carolina. Gambling problem, call 1,800 gambler or visit RG dash help.com. First online real money wager only, $10 deposit required. Bonus bets are non-witrable and expire seven days after receipt.

Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook. Fandal.com. Should we flip to the east now just to check in because you're probably listening to this Thursday morning

I would assume most people were going to get a game two. This is kind of the opposite experience. Before we move on, can I throw out one thing which is at this game? I saw some fans wearing bring ya ass headbands

and I would like to know where these are available and if they can be sent to us. That seems like something we should have in our collection. Oh, I definitely think it's something you guys should have in your collection. There we go. You know, the synergy between your bits and Anthony Edwards's bits is really beautiful.

We're both taking off this postseason, one might say. People are saying. That's a really good idea. Live show. Bring your ass headbands. Let's talk about this later. No, game two, Eastern Conference finals. What an absolute slog this game was.

Well, first of all, I have to say it's quite funny because after our discussion in the last pot or two pods ago, whenever it was, I'm now being accused as a Celtics hater, which I find quite hilarious. But games like this, Rob, I definitely understand why people, including me, including all of us, probably are a little skeptical when the Celtics play like this. This was a game was a mess. They win games like this without playing well. And that's a Rorschach test for you as a basketball fan in person and watcher. like, is that a good thing? Because they're so talented, they're able to overcome these sorts of bad performances. Is it a weird thing that they have a hard time string together wholly dominant games?

My feeling on as long as the wins keep coming, it's really a non-problem. But the wins almost slipped away from them in this. And frankly, they should have lost this game, if not for Tyrese Halliburton, giving away basically three separate possessions in crunch time between the fourth and overtime. I find myself like, and I'm not trying to zig when everybody's zagging here. Part of it, I think, is they've played the fucking Indiana Pacers, a beat up Klafs team, a beat up heat team. Like, and like at a certain point, like, it's not like they've had to dig deep for any of

this stuff, right? And so they've won. Those teams don't need their best. They don't require their best by any stretch of the imagination. And so I'm not surprised human nature has kicked in and they have to. haven't played like their lives are on the line against, you know, mediocre competition. Like, compared to what the playoff level has been all across the board.

Like, these teams have been mediocre. I'm not really that mad that the Celtics haven't been smoking them by 30. However, the Indiana thing that I think is indicative is something that you, that might crop up and be a problem perhaps in the NBA finals, is that they play. this like, I don't want to call it robotic, but it's like, this is what we do. We try to get threes. We try to shoot threes. As soon as the three is there, just take the three, take the three. Doesn't matter who the opponent is. We're playing our way, blah, blah, blah, blah.

When it's just like, yo, the Pacers want to play speedball, why do you have to play that with them? Why? Why do you have to prove that we don't have to adjust? We can just show up and do that. Stop doing that. The Pacers employ three-backed. Three-back court guys who are 6-3, not 200 pounds, between the three of them. Six-three and under under 200 pounds. Why aren't you guys just being like, yo, Jason Tatum, I'm bigger than these dudes? Jalen Brown, who does a better job of this, I will say, I'm bigger than these dudes. We need to play in the paint.

We need to scrap this three-point shit. We need to beat these fucking people up. Like, that's my problem with the Celtics. The one-track minus of how they play just gets on my nerves, bro. I think it's two things. I think it's the Celtics allowed and tend to allow this postseason the other team to dictate the terms of play. And they were playing the Pacers game pretty much from jump. And to do that now in the Eastern Conference finals feels a little bit like the clock is ticking at a certain point.

You need to be the ones that assert yourself, especially in the first two games at home where they've been quite dicey. Two, it's just the process stuff that worries you maybe not in this series, but in a more competitive series, maybe in the NBA finals when they get there. And the big thing is, yes, the threes, which they settle for constantly, including when it's like an Al Horford, who like, yes, the shots are there. And Al has a history of making shots. But it's just like how many times you're going to do that and miss before you actually change what you're doing. And two, it's just like not having Christops in there, two off of two, I guess. I'm at number three.

We'll you guys get it. It's also Al and the Biggs being such a letdown with Christops not being there. I mean, we talked about all season. Christops was kind of the skeleton key that unlocked this team. And you're seeing how thin the benches at center. And they're making do. But as much as Doris Burke, who I love, was talking up Al as a person as if he's like the second coming of Mahatma Gandhi. Like, at a certain point, we need to be open and honest about the fact that he was getting eaten alive.

And this isn't the first time this postseason. And like, the only other option that Maz is willing to play is Cornett. who is just is way worse than that. And so if you're not going to be creative with the lineups and playing more small ball, this is who they are. And so like all these things collide, Rob. And it's just like, yeah, they won.

But God damn, it never feels as satisfying as you'd like it to. Maybe not. But I do want to stop the hand-wringing a little bit. They did win. They stole this game. And Tatum and Brown played well enough. Like they did play. They did get to their strengths.

They did get to their stuff. Brown looked outright dominant at points in this game. Tatum, even though he missed what would have been, I believe, a game tying three down the stretch came huge in overtime. But they delivered and crunch time in the ways that they need to deliver. And they did do some of the things we're talking about. Maybe they didn't get to the basket aggressively enough. But Drew Holliday was putting Tyreys Halliburton into the stanchion and working his way

inside in what turned out to be. That's game of his career. Yeah. Basically, I think it's season high. The subject career. Season high, regular season or playoffs for scoring, 28 points for Drew Holliday. That's pretty amazing. The Horford concerns are real, and this is not a good matchup for him.

And you could see it in the way that Boston basically scrammed him out of playing pick-and-roll defense. He was so thirsty to stay in the lane. And Indiana was like, oh, yeah, let's just find Al Horford and just destroy him. Get open threes off of it. Get completely wide open free-throw line jumpers. And it's like, yo, Joe Missoula, make this dude get beat off the dribble out in space one or two times in a row. Like, show me that you're willing to do something different, dude. And then, okay, maybe we're scrambling behind the play.

Maybe we're doing something. But, like, just doing the same exact coverage every single time. I mean, Nemhard looking like a freaking genius out of it. He's looking like Steve Nash carving these dudes up. It's ridiculous. Yeah, Nemhard and McConnell looked a little too good out there in terms of just their ability to navigate within the defense. You got to clean that stuff up.

the good news is the Celtics are exactly the kind of team that you would expect to clean it up and they have shown that they can and they will and they have in previous matchups. And Holiday, Drew Holiday actually lived up to his rep on defense. He's clamped the hell up. I was waiting until we got here. In the second half.

He smoked him in the second half for sure. So I want to pass along a theory I've been thinking of because Waz is constantly bringing up Drew Holiday both publicly and privately in the group checks. Chat, if you don't mind me. me revealing. I almost feel like we have to start thinking of Drew Holiday, not as the player he was earlier in his career, like the pick and roll dynamo, or even like the Bucks version. Like, to me, he is guard Aaron Gordon for this team. And when you look at him like that as

just like a big physical stout mobile defender who might hit some shots here and there. And like obviously the ball handling bar and the NBA jam bars is turned way up. And like the rim finishing is turned way down from Gordon, but that's kind of who he is. And when you take that into effect, like, then you start to recognize, like, some of the brilliant stuff he does. Like, obviously he was a complete player in this game, like, just absolutely a monster. Made his trees. It was great. Yeah. And you saw that at the tail end of the previous series, where they really made intentional, uh, within the offense to go to him and play the mismatches. And I almost feel like he is turning into somewhat of like the go-to mismass buster,

this team. But like, I think like he is the Gordon for this team. I think then everything starts to make a little bit more sense from him. Maybe I hope, wise, you could be a little more sure. No, no. All I'm saying is, look, don't get cooked by Jimmy Butler, right? Don't monopolize possessions in key possessions with stepback threes. Now, if you monopolize in a possession to put T.J. McConnell in his place and Nemhard, make him look like the little guy that he is in Halliburton, who's been a soft-ass defender his whole career. If you monopolize the possessions to do that, you know what, Drew Holiday, I'm with you. I'll get a Jew holiday jersey.

But some of the through the legs, you know, four shuffles to the stepback three that's 23 feet away, and it just clanks off the backboard. I'm not here for that. Drew Holiday jerseys? Is that an idea? At least for one. For some of us, yeah, for some of us, perhaps. I am, I'm an adult man

and you already made me wear a jersey once. You were so, I don't know if we talked about it's in the pod. Rob was so mad that he had to wear a jersey. Yeah, he was pissed about rocking a jersey. It's not my thing. Yeah. But I think we're zeroing in on a lot in this game did break right for the Celtics in a way that forecast

that this should be a very easily navigable matchup for them. Drew playing this well is a huge lift. The stars being able to get to the shots that they want, even if they didn't get to the ones that we might want them to take is obviously a good thing. They forced a lot of turnovers in this game and made Indiana look really sloppy with their offense for portions of it. So you can see the way that this thing is coming together. The questions are just about the lineup and who's playing. And this is something that you raised previously, Justin, in terms of them playing small ball. Indiana has now basically

invited them to do it by not really playing a backup center toward the back half of this game. Obie Topin was effectively the backup five. If that's how India is playing, there's no reason that you can't play basically whoever you want as a backup five. Five minutes, just five minutes of small ball. That's it. Why are we getting Coram Netman? They dissipated down the stretch in this game, but it's just like, he's not it, Joe Mizzula.

Just move off of that. At this point, I'd play Houser Moore just to get some more wings in the rotation there. But is there anything like the Pacers should be thinking differently? I mean, they practically won this game until they fumble it all way. Keep pushing. Keep pushing the pace. Keep speeding Boston up. Encourage them to take these quick shots. They're not used to playing at this pace, so they're not as conditioned for it. Jalen Brown even admitted it after the game. He was like, yeah, it was pretty up and down. I was a little bit winded at the end of this game.

No fucking shit. You don't play like this. So like, yeah, keep trying to push pace. Make it into speedball. I think that's their only chance. Honestly, like if the Celtics make this a methodical sort of game where they're getting that way to hell back on defense, buckling down, you know, getting into their matchups defensively, making sure Drew is putting the screws to the head of the stake, the snake, excuse me, I think they're beating these guys up, you know. But if they try to do the finesse, oh, we're going to play up and down, oh, we can do the, you know, to have the full court track me.

I watch yes. Yeah, I thought some of the ways in which the Pacers sped things up, the Celtics were able to match pretty well. You know, this is a team in Boston that can run, as you're saying, that has the athleticism to run. They're just not quite used to that life in the way that the Pacers are. And so there were times where Boston pushed, and Indies transition defense had no shot.

Or there were possessions where Indiana, as we've seen in these playoffs, will try to press full court. And then that ends up with T.J. McConnell guarding Jason Tatum, and it's just a walk to the basket for a layup. So there's low-hanging fruit there for Boston, but they do have to be very mindful of what we've been saying up front in this conversation, which is, how are you setting the terms of engagement for this game?

You can run with them at times, and you can pick those spots, and you can be opportunistic, but you need to also take the Pacers out of what they want to do, and you need to instill some sense of order over what this series is going to be. The Pacers took three free throws. Three free throw attempt.

an entire regulation. So before overtime. I think they took 10 total in the entire game. And on the one hand, Scronier team. That is the Pacer's problem, which they surely will get more than three in this next game. But this is how they play.

They're more perimeter offense, more running gun sort of offense. But it also speaks to maybe the lack of physicality on Boston side, where it's just like, let's be a little bit more of a thumper. Take some cues from maybe the Mavs and the wolves over on the other side of the brack and just like, let's see you.

lay the wood early and often. That is one of my criticisms or even like Drew. Some of these guys are slow starters where they'll turn that stuff on when they need to. But it's typically like third quarter is when Boston really clicks in

on most of these games in this postseason where it's just like something about the start. It's almost like Nuggets asked what we saw earlier in the postseason. Or it's like, let's get going into this a little bit sooner. Yeah. And that's a great team also seeing what it can get away with. And just what level of respect an opponent deserves. And right now the level of respect is

We're playing Luke Cornett 13 minutes. And I recognize that the Celtics don't exactly have a deep bench of alternatives. If they're not playing Cornett, Peyton Pritchard did not cover himself in glory in this game. Sam Hauser has pretty clear limitations. Those are really the only guys that Joe Missoula has been comfortable playing right now, other than Chris Epsporzingis. So if that doesn't change, those guys will probably have to be part of the rotation in some meaningful way. But I don't know.

I think you have to take the Pacers more seriously, at least with your defense than the Celtic. did in the first half. And we know they can do it. That's frankly the only reason why we ask it. Having said all that, still think the Celtics are going to win it all. It's hard. Like, I can't fault you for that. They're going to win this series. Yeah. And I'm much worried about that. I mean, also, I expect at this point the Mavs, Wolves, Mikeo six or seven, like, if any team shows up with seven guys they can play in the NBA finals, like it's going to be a godsend. Like, We did a story on the ringer.com this week, Zach Cram did, about the easiest path to the finals. And first, I should mention when you don't adjust things based on injuries, just based on pure win average, the Denver Nuggets had the third easiest path in the past 40 years.

Just going to note that, especially for our friend Rob, who completely biffed that earlier. Just saying. But the Celtics path. What did I do? You biffed it? What did I biff? you were pushing back on the idea that the Nugs did not have an easy path to the finals. There are no easy paths to the finals.

Oh, give me a fucking thing. Anyway, the Celtics, on the other hand, when you adjust for injuries, it's actually worst. So it has been a cakewalk and it might continue to be, but I still think the Celtics. Yeah. Frankly, I know it's something that we will discuss to death. You would be a true coward to switch up on the Celtics now. as much crowing you've been doing all season.

The nerve of this guy to pretend he's being brave right now. I'm sticking to my Celtics pig. Wait, hold on. I did the crowing to my Celtics pick in a hush tone. I wish we had a... You ain't switching it up right now? I wish we had like a one shining moment where we just had all of Waz's nuggets

just like absolute bullshit. Most conditioned athlete, Nicola Yokin. Peyton Watson. I could come up with an entire like 30 minute documentary on this shit. You should have played more. Yeah, I'm sure that would have made the difference. Now we're all getting into the mud together.

Now we're just rassling. I can't wait. Let's wrap it there. Remember live show June 18th. Go to the ringer.com slash events. Get those tickets. We'll be doing the show on June 18th. I believe at 8 p.m. Pacific doors at 7.

So check that out. Also watch us on YouTube. We'll be back on Saturday, as usual. I think we did later Sunday last time, going back to Saturday this time. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Steady Ocampo. We'll see you then. Must be 21 plus and 18 plus in D.C.

In present in select states, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 1,800 gambler, or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 53342 in Arizona. 1-88-789-7-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut.

1-8009 with it in Indiana. 1-800-522-470 or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas. 18777-7-70 stop in Louisiana. Visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Visit 1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia or call 1-800 522-470470 in Wyoming. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line, MA.org or call 800-327-50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 187-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope NY in New York.