The Ringer NBA Show - Luka Calls Game on the T-Wolves, Adjustments for Ant Man and Can the Pacers Win a Game in the ECF?

Episode Date: May 25, 2024

Live on The Ringer NBA YouTube channel immediately following Luka Doncic’s nasty game-winner to put the Dallas Mavericks up 2-0 in the Western Conference Finals, The Ringer’s Justin Verrier and Tyler Parker attempt to catch their breath after an absolutely epic Game 2. The guys discuss Luka’s heroics, why Rudy Gobert was still in the game despite constantly being hunted, as well as Dereck Lively’s massive impact and the specific improvements Anthony Edwards needs to make for the Timberwolves to have any semblance of hope the rest of the series. They close things out by discussing the Pacers’ chances to win any more games in the Eastern Conference Finals and whether or not their opinion on Tyrese Haliburton’s greatness has changed during these playoffs. For more live streams throughout the NBA playoffs, subscribe to The Ringer NBA YouTube channel! Buy your tickets to The Ringer NBA Show: Group Chat live show in Los Angeles here! Hosts: Justin Verrier and Tyler Parker Producer: Ben Cruz Additional Production Support: Jack Wilson, John Richter and Jonathan Frias Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. It's the Maskman David Shoemaker. It's a new era in professional wrestling, and that means a new era here at the Ringer Wrestling show. Kaz here, every Monday and Thursday hang out with me and my guys' shoes on the Masked Man show. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal, and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling worldwide, where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of mass men's and even your hottest takes. Don't tap out, tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show feed now on Spotify.

or wherever you get your podcasts. Worldwide. Hello and welcome to the Ringer MBA show. I am Justin Verrier and joining me. It is Parker Tiles, Tyler Parker, whatever you want to call him. What's up? What's up, dude? How you doing, man?

I'm kind of winded, even though I didn't play a second of that game to the Western Conference finals. I almost feel like I want to open this just by swearing at you violently in Serbian. Slovenian, whatever we want to do here. Yeah, whatever Go Home is in Slovenian. Yeah, if we could get Siri to do a quick, I don't know if y'all are still doing those Google ads where you know you get them to say something for you.

But yeah, maybe throw one of those in there. Yeah, what a absolute stone cold killer. That was one of the most remarkable shots I've seen in a while. Honestly, it seemed like things were trending in that direction. going to talk about Eastern Conference Finals, but obviously we're going to spend the bulk of this podcast talking to you about Game 2, Western Conference Finals, Mavs go up to nothing. But like, it seemed like the game was there for the Mavs pretty much after halftime. It seemed Luca had that amazing third quarter. And it just felt like the wolves were constantly almost in prevent defense mode,

where they were hanging on by sheer will of Nas Reade's three-point ability. But ultimately, you can only do so much against Luca and there he was at the end to hit the big shot. I think that's a perfect description of it. Just that like, okay, we can't give up the big play here. We can't give up the big play here. So let's let's let's kind of lay off and, uh, and just hold onto the rope for dear life. And yeah, I mean, it was, it's been fascinating watching Luca in this, these playoffs in particular because like he finally does kind of just feel very.

very, very seasoned. Like, we've seen him in these positions a lot. He's been around a lot. You know what I mean? And there, at no point, once he got that switch on to Gobert, did I think anything other than a three was coming? And at no point did I think he was going to miss. Yeah.

As soon as he started the dance and had Gobert trying to swivel those hips, it just seemed like he was, he was dead to. right. Yeah, so 32, 13 assists, 10 rebounds, 5 for 11 from 3. My question is honestly, what was Gobert doing in the game at that point? Because it seemed like that was coming a few possessions before that. And clearly they were going for the switch

pretty relentlessly against Gobert. I guess that's the, we have to keep Gober and no matter what, edict, just kind of coming back to bite them, maybe. Maybe so. it doesn't, especially when you've, like you say, when you've gone to it earlier in the game, like less than a minute of game time had gone down between then

and when they had gone small earlier on, when they brought Anderson into the five because they were going to start trying to switch everything whenever they had, whatever that wasn't a five-point lead before Donchage hits Irving in the corner for that three to make it 108, 106, right? Like they went small there at that point, and it still doesn't matter.

They try to blitz Kyrie. Kyrie gets to the corner because he, he's unfathomably fast. And they're smoked. You know what I mean? And so it, um, I,

I don't know why you would give up that match up so easily. If I'm, if I'm them, I'm saying, no, Jaden, you fight over the top of this and stay with them.

Uh, And if not that, if you do decide, okay, we're going to roll with this and we're going to ride out this switch with Gobert out there. I don't know how you don't run another defender over at him pretty quickly to try to get him to give up the ball. I think at that point, it's kind of anybody other than him make them beat you. You know what I mean? To let him kind of dance for as long as he got to, you know, Gobert was, it was over before the dribbling started. That, I think, is the key point there. Like, why not just force anybody else on that court to beat you?

Because it seemed like even Kyrie at that stage of the game just kind of had lost whatever win, whatever momentum he had built earlier. It's just he missed those two free throws, which almost seemed like might have undone them in the end. I thought that might have been the crucial deciding factor in this one. But you're right, they did a better job like using Nas to step up on him earlier, a couple of possessions before that. obviously Jaden was getting absolutely barbecued alive the entire game so why not just send two

and just hope that you could do something off the pass from there it was pretty perplexing but I guess everything they threw at Luca at this game wasn't really working it was like so bizarre because the game started with that early time out where he instantly starts grimacing

to the point where he was biting a towel and I was like oh no but as we've seen through these this entire postseason, basically, he is either dead to rights or just the best player in basketball. And it just seemed like from that point on, it all went his way. It, watching him kind of slowly, slowly get the reins, he starts off pretty cold. I mean, through the first really like, whatever, it felt like, you know, three, three and a half quarters. and then him and Kyrie both kind of get going there right at the same time.

Kyrie, you know, had hit, had hit, I think, one three all playoffs before he rattles off three there. They kind of both get going. Kyrie kind of, you know, the wave kind of rolls back, but Luca just keeps the pedal down. I don't know how many times the wolves have to see Luca snake around a, you know, high screen. from lively into a step back where it's like he's you feel him have that timing down and that geometry down he knows how much space he needs to get he knows it's there it's not even a rushed shot it feels like when you're navigating around these moving bodies in this situation where another big is also coming up like trying to show in some way right like it wouldn't be as old

hat as it seems for him um but yeah the control is just at these heightened moments. Yeah, if you let him be up there and trobe on his own without throwing him another body and making him either get rid of it or see a lot of arms, then you're really playing with fire at this point. It just doesn't. McDaniels is going to get in jail there. And Lucas just going to have him ride his back the entire way into the lane.

And then it's going to be like, some great triple option quarterback. He jumps up into the air and he waits until the last possible second. And it's either, you know, bop, bop to one of the corners or a lob to lively or Gafford. And when you let him get into a rhythm like that, it's just really hard to get him to shift back down into second year. Once he's felt like, okay, this is what I'm seeing tonight. This is the diet tonight, you know. so Jaden McDaniels was I believe a second team all defensive player and he looked absolutely lost in this game and I don't blame him because there's just only so much you could do against Luca when he just has a complete vice grip of the game like the way that he did and I also thought it helped early on that it wasn't so much the Luca gives way to Kyrie Cadence that we've seen so much in this postseason it seemed at the very least that they were synchronized and kind of trading off.

in a way that felt natural. It was dueling banjos, but almost like intentionally dueling banjos where it's like you have half the solo and then someone picks it up and you're just going back and forth. And it's almost like pre-planned that way. But in that third quarter hit, it almost felt like the best defense that the wolves had against Luca was the fact that he had scored so much and seemed to be getting tired and then had to be sub-out. It was just unbelievable.

I've never seen someone have this level of success. against this caliber of defense. I guess it's just because he's so big on top of everything else that, like, I don't know which player, oddly enough, on the best defense in the NBA. One of the best defenses probably in recent history matches up with him. So I guess to a certain extent, like the superstarship from a superstar and best player is just like winning the series for that. It's, they don't have anyone.

left to throw at him. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm not, aside from just getting the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible and trying to be a little bit more creative with some of your doubles. Like there are some situations tonight, especially where, you know, Gobert would kind of find himself in a little bit of no man's land, especially when Luca would find himself down there and kind of the midpost, trying to, you know, kind of bullyball somebody. You would see Gobert kind of want to go, but kind of get into this halfway spot, not all the time, but sometimes. And it's like, you know, Luca makes you play perfect.

And then you have to kind of pray otherwise, right? And so it's if you're going to be trying to hedge your bets in some way, he's going to catch you in that, you know, lie and make you pay. And yeah, I mean, whenever you see Gafford and lively being so effective and so active on both ends, I mean, they just like have the rim on lock at this point. And to say that in this series with Gobert and as physical as the wolves have been and as much as they kind of control that area against the nuggets, I mean, I'm not sure what else any reasonable person could want from Gafford and lively out of the center position. What they're getting is just nuts. It's funny because I almost feel like Gober will never be as good on offense as lively as right now as a rookie in his vote.

first postseason. And now, like, that's clearly a dig at Gobert, an unnecessary one. But it also shows you how far along lively is just like based on feel and just like pure bounciness and activity, just like him getting on the floor for some of these defensive plays. He's absolutely incredible. And it's such a nice mirror to what they're doing in the back court with Kyrie and Luca, who clearly best back court in the NBA stand band win as far as to say in NBA history. I haven't done the research on that one, but I mean, maybe, I guess let's let them win a title first before we can even get into Stefan Clay territory. But like the center rotation of Gafford and lively, the fact that they're just like

putting them out there for bursts, almost the Zion level burst strategy and just saying, run the fuck up the court and just be as active as humanly possible. I wonder if that's just like in subtle ways wearing down some of the bigs of the wolves. and some of the other teams that they've faced. Like, Gobert is a fairly fit giant Frenchman who's probably playing 30-plus minutes. He's got to be tired just trying to keep up with Luke and everything else to then have these guys, these speed demon roadrunners,

kind of going up and down the floor, just like playing after every ball. I imagine that just, like, kind of cascades of the fact that Lucas starts the domino with. I totally agree. I think another aspect of it that can make, that can, you know, wear on Gobert and just any big who's being asked to guard it over and over and over is as these high screens with Luca, Luca and anybody, you're being asked to, that requires your

utmost attention for the entire time and you can't make a mistake. But when you sort of add that where like now you're seeing Dallas more and more kind of like move that high screen up further and further in the half court. So Gobert's having to cover even more ground. And it gives Donch it a chance to kind of like assess a little bit longer and get the defender on his back even earlier if they're playing it the way the wolves are playing it. And when you're asking Gobert to try to cover all that kind of ground and get back and either try to contest for a lob or try to scramble to one of the corners where, you know, DJJ or Washington have been shooting the ball pretty well. It's like it's it's a lot to it's a lot to ask.

It makes sense that he's that he's getting tired because he's also, Lucas just punishing anybody when he comes down there. You know what I mean? Like it's it, uh, Lucas, Luca's got a shoulder for anybody. So lively in Kyle Mann's final rookie rankings, the vaunted rookie rankings. Yes. Had him, let's see here, seven, no, excuse me, sixth overall. So top three, obviously, Wembe, your guy, chat, Brandon Miller. Then he has Hawkes, Wallace, and then lively. Right. If we were to redo this now, now that we have reached peak lively in the postseason,

probably fourth, right? You would think, I bet if you ask Kyle, he would say that too. Like, I mean, to see, to see him doing this stuff on the biggest, stage, able to hold up, not just at the rim, but also on some of these switches, like sliding his feet and actually kind of staying with some of these wings that he's getting switched out onto. I mean, the activity is just bonkers, the stat that's going around that everybody got all hopped up on about him having the second highest plus or minus for a rookie since Manu. Like, you know, I get it. Like, it's, that's, if you're going to be compared to a rookie who, you know,

really affected winning, you can do a hell of a lot worse than man. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's, um, the, there's like a, there's a sophistication with lively, like, that is becoming more and more evident. You're seeing him with the ball and these short rolls a little bit more in these situations where they are Blitz and Luca and Kyrie. he is a decent passer in some of those situations and I mean he's just I don't think you can say enough about how hard it is to play against a big who's going to be that physical

who's also going to go to the boards every time it's like it's one thing to play against a guy who's every now and again going to fly in and you've got to kind of keep your eye on him but when it's consistent and you know Gobert is going to have to box out until he or someone on the other team has the ball, that he can't quit that effort until then.

Yeah, I mean, I just think he's, I think he's, him and Gaffert are wearing, or wearing these guys out a little bit. Yeah, he had that one pass lively did from the top of the arc where he found a cutting Luca Donchich, which might be the only time we say that sentence like in history ever again. But the fact that he looks so naturally passing over the top, I think just speaks to what we're saying there, but I guess the flip side of all this, like, Luca gush fest would be the story of ant for the wolves here. I thought this was going to be an ant game right from the jump. They were getting downhill and attacking and more importantly, drawing free throws in a way that

I just thought that was the recipe for success, for ant and for the wolves. It just seemed like they were just doing so much of that and playing with the style of reckless abandon that really kind of speaks to their identity and why they were so successful in those first two rounds. And I was like, oh, this works. And this is how they're going to win a game. Unfortunately, it just seems like things trickle into a situation where is just forced to be a decision maker. Seems like the book is out in that regard.

And he's just a little bit more spotty from that. I wonder, like, not to take anything away from what might be the one of the greatest Nasreid performances we've seen. I think he was, what, his first four threes was five or six, I think a half time from three and just kept going. It winds up whatever, seven of, I guess, nine. or did he make eight? I can't remember. It's incredible.

As I said, my brain is GILA. He was seven for nine, but an eight for 13 overall, 23 points, which is like, it's unbelievable, but it felt like a lot of those, yeah, some of those shots were set up by Ant, but it almost masked, I think, what was happening, but Luke could takeover because that was kind of keeping them when they needed something to really bring them back in. oh he was the savior tonight without without naz that's an ugly ugly game that may that may snowball and get out of hand i mean if they if they don't have him hitting um the way that he's hitting and just like being a guy you have to guard you know what i mean like that's the it it um uh

you feel comfortable when the ball is in his hands and so yeah i mean i'm i'm i'm with you that i think that the Nause laser light show may have distracted from some, you know, larger wolves problems coming to the surface. Yeah, I mean, offensively, I'm with you. I mean, I think that Ant does have, you know, ways to get better in terms of, you know, how he processes the game. There is, it isn't as quick as it's going to need to be. it will get there.

But yeah, I mean, they're, they're testing the limits of, you know, what his computer is capable of right now. And it, it, it, I think, I mean, I need to go back and watch. Like for the most part, like, like you say, especially early, like process wise, I'm kind of fine with it. The shots they were getting, I mean, this is an unbelievable Dallas defense and they were guarding their asses off tonight. And so it felt like in a couple situations in the second quarter especially,

Edwards just touched, felt a little bit off. Bunnies where he's taking some contact, but you've seen him plenty of times finished through that sort of stuff. And it, yeah, there was just something not quite, he couldn't quite get into the flow, it felt like, you know what I mean? And yeah, and then when they need the kind of turn it on, and it just didn't quite feel like he could get to that fourth year that we've seen him get to during this postseason. So hopefully, if I'm a Minnesota fan, I'm hoping that I can figure out a way to get out into transition a little bit more, get Edwards going downhill a little bit more, maybe start trying to do some, you know, kind of big to big stuff with Kat and Nas out there together, have one of them handle and the other one pick, like get these bigs trying to at least move side to side to.

side a little bit more than there may be being asked to now and guard in ways that they're not typically accustomed to, you know what I mean? But yeah, I just, going back to what you said earlier, it did feel like a situation where it was like, are we kind of headed for

just the Mavs kind of keeping it close enough and then Luca nailing the door shut? It didn't kind of feel like there was some amount of inevitability there in some one. Yeah, 21. seven assists five rebounds from aunt it's not bad it just it's muted you know it's just like it's good but it's probably not to the level you need from your superstar in the western conference finals when you have to duel against luca who's playing at his absolute maximum right now and so like

it feels like we're being critical of aunt but it's more just like the situation that you find yourself in this vacuum where it's like you have to be at this level but unfortunately like you're just like on the way there. Especially in a situation where the guy who you're used to providing you some secondary support just doesn't have anything going. I mean, Kat just ghosting tonight, basically. Shot just not there at all. And just kind of like ineffectual.

You know what I mean? Like there's just no no verve to him really. And there's just too many times where you look down there and you're as much as cat was attacking sometimes. There are still too many instances where you look down there and he's got whoever, Jaden Hardy on him or Josh Green or whatever. And it's like, dude, face it up, take this guy to the rim. Like just give him a ride to the rim. Like you got that in you.

And when he, when he does hit these little, you know, try these one-legged fadeaways and stuff, which I realize he's capable of hitting, there is just something like, it's not a morale booster. You know what I mean? The attempt itself is not something that's going to like,

you know what I mean? Like you're, if you're Chris Finch, if you're these people and you're just like preaching, like let's take the fight to them, hey guys, guess what the Western Congress final started. you know, those like spinning out of a post up against Josh Green and trying to shoot a fade away over him, like it's just not going to get it done. Yeah, the Western Conference finals started and unfortunately they weren't there in the first play to get the inbound pass. What was that about?

And I mean, that happened earlier in the earlier this in the playoffs. It happened in one of those early Denver games, I'm pretty sure. A similar thing where like at the start of the, I think, game. it happens. And that's just like very, that's just weird. Yes. I mean, that's great, that's great analysis. But isn't that, don't you find that strange? It's a little weird. Yeah. I think this is just kind of the identity of the team kind of unearthing as things go along. Like it does feel like these teams at a certain point, especially once they get familiar

with each other, they default to their natural setting. And like, the wolves have just been playing way over the head for so long, and much to their credit, they deserve everything for what they did against the nuggets. But just like, this feels more what I kind of expected from the wolves going into the playoffs. At the point where like, I thought the Sons might win that first round series going into it.

Obviously, that was 100% wrong. And they've been a much better team. But it just feels like, and hitting this wall and trying to figure things out, having to beat teams more with his processing speed than his literal foot speed. And then like towns being, quite frankly a little townsy

where he's a little loosey-goosey. Two townsy. It's been in two townsy. I've started to use him as the example for other players on other teams being a little too squishy you know, a little not assertive enough a little to

kind of just somewhere out there in Galaxy brain and just they have a loss of their attitude towards assertiveness exactly. And this just happened to be that one. I mean he's in a lot of ways he's like almost like the perfect heat player where it's like

they have all these guys. Derek Jones Jr. used to be one of these guys where it's like he's a small who plays like a big. Towns unfortunately is a big who wants to play like the small. And if he's not hitting shots, you really kind of have to drive it into him. It seems like to be like, dude, go be large.

You know, credit Finch though, I will say sticking with Reed down the stretch. I think there was no way you were taking him off the court. And I guess if we want to like revisit it the who you put in the game overgo bear in that situation? Like, do we think towns would have fared better considering the game he had had?

He's a little bit quicker in terms of like lateral movement. No, I mean, I think, I think they kind of showed their handle what they prefer, right, during that moment where they put slow mo out there. I think that that's kind of if you, you know, I'm sure if you forced, you know, Finch's hand a few more times, he would say, you know, that that's kind of a way they would like to play sometimes that maybe they don't get a chance to because you just the roster is the roster. It's what I mean like Edwards I'm still so encouraged by his play like this is this is this is a bump.

You know what I mean? Like he's got he's got all this in them. What they're asking of him he is capable of. It's just he's early in figuring out how to figure it out. You know what I mean? And like I think that stuff is is coming. And like we know the fearlessness is there and we know he wants the moment. So it's, you know, I, if, if, if he was shrinking and kind of fading in the ways that Cat is capable of sometimes, like, at least with Edwards, like he, he fails trying.

You know what I mean? Like there's like, there's not a lot of arrows in the quiver at the end. Like, you know he, you know he went for it. And so it, it, it, it wouldn't surprise me to see them win one or two more games in this series. You know, losing the first two, it's hard to feel good about where it's there. You know what I mean? But it, a couple bounces here and there, like we're having a totally different conversation. Like it feels like, I mean, it's the same thing as the first game.

But there is something about watching these two teams try to execute in, late game situations where you're just like, oh yeah, a couple of these guys have taken this test before and they got, they like know what the answer is now. And a couple of these guys have not had this level of test yet. And they're trying to get their sea legs. There's any reason for optimism? It's that they tend to not play well at home for whatever reason, despite the crowd seemingly being just incredible. So maybe the flip back to Dallas will, will change something there. I'm curious though if you're Chris Finch on Mike Anori you're giving me the directions from your Cushie second row seat to tell to the guys as we go into game three here is there anything

you're noticing that's actually like tactically different like you could change X Y and Z because we're talking through here and I don't see any obvious no I mean there was like some of the some of the stuff I said earlier like you play naws and towns together and make maybe make some of Dallas's bigs guard like a big to big kind of pick and roll. Do some old school kind of Lamar Odom, Paugasol kind of stuff where you're just making everybody on the floor guard in a way that they're not traditionally, they're not as used to guarding as they are otherwise, right? And trying to get some of these guys in, you know, like some of these situations where

they're, you know, set and flare screens for Naz, stuff like that, like these, these things where these bigs are having to guard, you know, two and three different actions on the perimeter and chasing a big off another screen, just like requiring more out of those defenders than they're requiring sometimes. You see how it goes. And then, I mean, I think you say, look,

Edwards and towns aren't going to shoot this bad again. Like, this was a particularly bad shoot night for both of them. I don't think that both of them were going to shoot this bad again, and we were in the game. And, like, you know, defensively, they haven't had the answers, you know, sort of in the end game when they've needed them. But there's, you wouldn't say that Dallas is just slicing and dyson necessarily, right? Like, it's, I don't think it's an all hope is lost sort of situation. I think it's just you, you're, you're, there's just a sobering reality. that right now the other side has the better clothes.

And that they just have to live in that reality for now. Yeah, I mean, if I were them, I'd be trying to get out and run a little bit more. I mean, that's why I would maybe try to play a little bit smaller in some of these situations, just try to like change the game up a little bit, see if you can unlock something. Because you feel Edwards being more comfortable in the, open floor, you know, the problem is, is like, you know, can you still, uh, defend the rim like you want to? Are you still going to be able to run off of misses or are you going to be pulling the ball out of the net too much because of this change? You know what I mean? Like it, uh, it,

it's, it's the one thing about them is since we've seen Edwards go on these heater streaks, they don't feel totally dead in the water. You know what I mean? Like if you told, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, If two weeks from now we looked back and Edwards went for 40 plus three games in a row, you wouldn't really bat an eye at this point. He's got those kinds of games in him. And maybe it just winds up being his time. Maybe they're late bloomers in this series or something and he goes bananas. But right now, I mean, especially after you see in the whatever that's,

there was another stat going around that's like, you know, in the conference finals, the team that wins game one usually wins like 76 percent of the time or something like that. It's very, very difficult to be confronted by that math and think like, hey, you know, the wolves are still in it. But, you know, Edwards can be a miracle worker. And we've seen them do it before. So who knows?

Right now, I'd feel better being a mouse fan. Yeah. I mean, listen, the Nugs flip the series for at least the time in this exact same situation. And these games are way closer. than any of the individual games before game sevens in that last year. This is like a couple plays here and there and the wolves are back in the series. And if you want to give the wolves credit, they practically like four out of this series,

at least offensively, where it's just like you move them slightly above the break and he's just like a completely different player. He just seems lost at sea to the point where it's not just the miss shots. It's also just like fumbles on passes and like miss passes. He's just like next year and Gordon. And then all of a sudden he's back to, Charlotte, PJ Washington, unfortunately.

So they have that going for them. And I think you're right. If they just get a good ant game, I wonder, you're right, he has been better pushing in transition, almost like what LeBron was doing against Yokic in that first round series, where it's not like all the time when he sees an opening,

he's going for it, and you could definitely tell he's trying to get the head of steam as much as possible. I almost wonder if this way, and I'm curious what you think here, is like, is there a way to use him almost how New Orleans uses Zion off of pin downs and screens and then getting him the ball where it's like can Conley handle more and you use actions to free Edwards in order to get him downhill and finish. Now, I guess the

problem with that is you're ultimately going to hit lively or Gafford at the rim no matter what. But, you know, if you're getting to the line off of that, a good amount, I wonder if that's like maybe a little something to make up the margins. I really like the idea of moving him off the ball some and taking that burden off of him, getting him a couple screens, and you know, you make towns or read that first screener and then you have Edwards popping off that double screen catching the ball, then you have Go Bear screening for Nas or Towns and they're popping off something just like trying to layer some actions on top of each other, get Edwards on the move, try to get his defender behind him.

And hopefully you have at least distracted some of the bigs with the other action that's happening there. You know what I mean? And maybe instead of it being Gafford that's meeting him at the rim, you've got a better chance because it's just Derek Jones Jr. And Lord knows, that's not an easy task either the way that he's been playing because he's been fantastic too. But it's just like it's a lesser of two evils, right?

It feels like they need to do more, if they are going to be setting these high screens for and Dallas is going to stay kind of, you know, guarding it the way that they are like, let's do what Dallas is doing and move that screen up a little bit higher. You know what I mean? And just like try to actually get him ahead of steam a little bit higher up on the floor and see what that looks like when he's getting into the lane. at a little higher MPA than he is whenever he's, whenever you're setting it at the, at just above the three point line. You know what I mean? Like trying to do whatever you can,

you know, angles-wise to get him in space. Yeah, it's, but you know, that, I'm a Philistine. So I don't know. I mean,

what, how, like, when, when, when, when, when,

when, when, when you're playing the lineups that they typically play. So, like, take, sort of take out the, like, the, like, the same.

sexy idea of, you know, slow-mo coming in and, you know, them playing super-duper-small or putting gnaz at the five or whatever and just running and trying to surround them with some a little bit more shooting. Like, what, if they're just sort of playing the lineups they typically play, do you

see any kind of lever that can be pulled? No, just kind of what I mentioned before about maybe getting some space there. I mean, I think you're right, though. I think this is more just marginal improvements than any sort of wholesale change, because I do, feel like the wolves were built to play to their strength, which is their size, their defense,

and ant, you know? And so to a certain extent, you kind of are who you are and like to almost disrupt that is a sense of desperation that I'm not sure you can actually trigger because they were right in all of these games. It was a couple of plays here and there to really do it. And so if anything, like the most concerning part is that their defense, which has been the backbone of everything that they've done this entire season, just as looking as helpless as it. it did at times against Luca. And so I wonder if the ultimate, like, answer to everything that we're talking about right now is that Luca is just playing on another level. And honestly, throughout these games, I just keep thinking back to the trade deadline and just like how much

consternation we had, everyone had about like trading all these picks just to get a bunch of guys. Apparently the way to win with Luca Donchist is just to have a nine or so deep team to the point where like X-em and some of these guys they're playing this entire season aren't getting on the floor it's just like just give Luca guys enough guys to play and give him a chance and this guy will make magic happen i think that might be the big takeaway from the series in these playoffs even if it if it's somebody springy who can set a screen and go catch some lobs and then protect the rim on the other end yeah i mean i'm not sure what else you could want from a i mean i know i know the mabs are missing having that cleaver card to play

in some of these situations when they want to space the floor a little bit more. Certainly, I'm sure they would like to have him and who knows? I mean, maybe they will this series. I don't know. But it does feel like one of those things where he has figured out like the new guys to the point where they don't feel new anymore at all. You know what I mean? Like there's just no, there's no hitching the giddy up now.

and those guys now know when to be ready for some of these crazy Luca passes and are game to actually go get them. You know, the Gafford catch and finish tonight off that baseball pass after he blocks that Conley 3 on the other end to go catch that and finish that scoop falling down, just fully extended, to see a center do that and just Larry Fitzgerald the ball away from whoever the defender was was pretty nuts. And that's, you know, it's, um, that, that kind of functional athleticism, like being able to

actually make plays in the air, like God bless Dwight Powell and Cleber for that matter, but they're not going to be able to go do things like that. Like when you see Gafford and lively just haul ass to these rebounds, you know what I mean? just like it's it i i think i think part of that is you know if you're if you're a wolf's fan you're hoping somehow to try to kind of use that activity against them in some way if they are constantly crashing if we can get a rebound and get it to aunt or someone else who can get going downhill in a hurry and we can attack the rim for you know one of the springy dudes gets back down to the other end of the floor i think that's what you hope for um

But yeah, I mean, right now it's just Dallas has felt like not just the more physical team, but also just the more, they're more present. Like they feel like they just feel like they, they feel like they know what to do a little bit more than the wolves do right now. You know what I mean? There's just, there's just a little less offensive chaos out there in these late clock situations. And yeah, it's, you realize how much faith you have in a team of Scott, Luca and Kyrie in the back court when you need someone to go create a shot. I mean, it's just, it's an embarrassment of riches for them. Yeah.

Turns out what you need around Luca are just guys with size, guys with athleticism, and guys who know how to take absolute beratement. the amount of like high fives that get doled out as Luca is just in full psycho mode, like yelling at the ref or maybe even yelling at them. Like, yeah, I am a piece of shit. Let's go, man. It takes like the right amount of humility, but also basketball ability to be a Luca teammate that clearly Grant Williams does not have, but it looks like these guys do. No, Grant Williams did not possess the gift of levity,

required to last in that. I mean, I got to see Luca play a couple times in the last round in person. And I think one of the reasons he's so tired is because he doesn't shut up the whole game. It's like unbelievable. I've tried to go for a run before with someone who wants to talk.

I can't do that. It's exhausting. I agree. I'm just, it's a miracle for me. that I'm here. You know what I mean? Like I'm not, I don't want to talk. I just, just let me let me sweat. Luca is carrying on 20 different conversations at once with different teammates, the other languages, different fans. It's a, it's like, I get why he's so exhausted. Yeah. It's unbelievable. I was starting to put together like the biggest jerk in the NBA sort of list, but I, I figure my, maybe

not the time for it. And also I'm worried that he might find it and like just scream bloody murder at me as well. So it was a, it was so incredible tonight. I mean, like, tonight is when, is when like all that whining, you set it aside. You know what I mean? You're like, okay, this is like, this is why you are so awesome sometimes because you are just, you do, you have no conscience and you're going for the throat every time. And guys like that who have, actually will take the game on their shoulders and show up or just there's not a ton of them, you know, right now. And Luca is just for all of his faults, which there are many in terms of how he deals with his teammates and the officials and people's time and patience. But just like,

what a stone cold assassin. Going for the throat, whether it is a step back to win game two of the Western Conference finals or a benign no call, like late in the second quarter, then literally nobody remembered as soon as the play was over. So at least there's consistency there. And probably caring about both of them about the same. Exactly. I guess that's what makes them great.

All right. Let's flip quickly to the East Finals now, a series with literally not even, not even, like 75% of the juice of the series, unfortunately, especially with Tyre's Halliburton seemingly out. We only know that he's questionable as we're recording this Friday night with that sore left hammy. I guess first and foremost, any hope here for our friends in Indy,

like maybe a game where Pascal Seaccom and the crowd and T.J. McConnell just like kind of just have enough of that cocktail of energy and like grit that they steal one game. you know crazy things have happened i've seen i've watched enough heat games to see you know every now and against uh you know the uh the role players lose their minds and become stars for a moment so it especially with siacum playing as well as he's been playing i mean i could i could believe it i would not would not uh bet a significant amount of uh money on it i mean they're going to come with energy. They're going to play hard. That place is going to be rocking.

And certainly, uh, offensively, they've got plenty of dudes that can get very hot and for a night become a nightmare. You know what I mean? It, uh, but it does feel like with it being Halliburton, who is just the key to making all of that hum how it's supposed to, too. It's, it's, uh, you don't feel good about the, about where they're at.

Yeah. It's tough. Outside of like maybe a stolen game here, it does feel like things are over. I think at this point, I would, the thing I'm looking for most in this series is just to see more experimentation from our friend Joe Missoula. Like, those Shay Burset minutes. I feel like there needs a parade, like a duckboat parade just for that happening because I think everyone logged into this series, whether in Boston or you're just watching from afar is like, hallelujah. Like, let's just try this because you have the optimal roster for it. And honestly, I think you need to start thinking ahead a little bit to the West finals where it's like, that would be pretty good, especially with these teams that are loaded

up on size. And you're not sure if Christops is there. I'm like, I'm getting really worried about Luca with Al Horford on a switch. If you think Gobert was on skates, just wait until Horford is in the same situation or God forbid Luke Cornett like you need a little bit more flexibility there and so if we could see a little bit more pizzazz from our guy Joe that'd be nice. Yeah, Cornets Cornets eclipse feels like it's not quite enough for the for the Luca Kyrie back to do too much damage. The yeah, I was so excited when Brissette showed up because it just felt like it gave the offense more personality.

You know what I mean? There's just you felt them kind of diversifying a little bit, getting a little bit more life into things. And like you say, I think it just gives you optionality. Now for sure is the time to play. Like you've got to, you know, I think they've got to,

they're not play, that's not right, but not play, but like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, the, the, the, the move was successful enough to justify trying it again. You know what I mean? And like seeing if there's more, there because like optionality's king in the playoffs and giving yourself possibilities is what they should be focused on aside from winning right like if you

can if you can um if if porzegas does come back and you've gotten reset some valuable minutes here in these uh crucial games it's huge for the team in the finals if he's called into duty. And so it's, um, no, I would love, I would love to see them, them, you know, tap that a little bit more, like just to give, um, I think it, I think it gives Brown and like, Tate them a little bit of a breather too. Like they, they might not have to guard somebody that they're typically having to guard. You know what I mean?

Like, just like, it, it, it, it eases things up for them in a way that, they don't always have. And so it, yeah, I like the, why not try it again? You know what I mean? Like I just, it just, it seems like it's worth giving another world. Yeah, in some ways it seems counter to the way Missoula thinks his team should be. Like, what is the strength of his team? But in a weird way, it almost feels like the Pacers are showing him like what a perimeter

oriented team can feel like, where there's just so much flow and athleticism and speed, where it's like, that could just clearly be an advantage. You don't have to strike a balance, especially against an opponent, where you're really just trying to keep up and attract me, right? And I also almost wonder if it spurs the physicality that they've lacked at many times in this postseason, not only on offense, just getting Tatum maybe a little bit more space to get downhill, but also physically defensive. where it feels like those guys being smaller almost clicks in like the competitive edge,

but it feels like they need to play bigger because they're giving away some size. And so I almost wonder if that in a way like locks them into their ideal state. But who knows? No, that's a, that's, uh, that's an interesting thing to think about. It does make, it does make them, it requires them to scramble a little bit more than they would have to otherwise. and like it did just feel like the energy kicked up a little bit, right? Like, and maybe it's, maybe it is minuscule enough to that we're just like,

it doesn't feel like we're nitpicking. It does feel like there's something to like poke at there and see like, okay, like what? Let's let's give this a chance to be successful, you know, let's put a little sunlight and water here and see what happens. Like it just doesn't, it, it, uh, when you're watching Brissette out there, like, it's not some situation where you're watching somebody who doesn't know where to go. You know what I mean?

Like the, the, the, um, the vibes still felt right offensively and defensively. And so I don't, I don't think it's some situation where it's, the Celtics have like a, that defensive culture is so set in stone and it's so what Missoula's about. I don't think there's some, I don't think they have to worry about, you know, losing their tough physical sort of identity that they've established on the defensive end just because they're playing somebody that's a little bit smaller. You know what I mean? It's like it's also not like to bring Jose Alvarado out there, right?

Like it's like Reset's got some size. Well, let me ask you this because I do think it's like an interesting time to maybe if we don't see Halliburton again in this series. and who knows, this could be dated by the time you listen to this podcast. But, like, how are we feeling about Halliburton in general this postseason? I know, like, on the one hand, you could write some of it off to the injury. Clearly, he wasn't right most of the second half of the season, actually probably since the new year. And this new injury or the resurgence of this injury, I wonder, almost gets credence to that.

Like, he wasn't right, ultimately. But we have seen times where he just hasn't seemed like he's had it. in the way that I think a lot of people thought he was. I think the trajectory, like, people were ready for him to launch as a superstar, and it feels like this has stilted to a certain degree. Do you think about Halliburton any differently here, or is this maybe just as similar as an ant situation where it's like young player, first postseason, figuring things out?

Yeah, that's, I think it's similar to the ant situation. And I do tend to want to give him the benefit of the death that, that, um, You know, maybe it did it did just take that long for him to get right physically. And then we saw him, you know, close to 100% there for a minute. And things looked very right. And then, you know, the hammy goes down again. And so it's, it's dark times. The one thing that keeps me from just fully wrapping my arms around Halliburton as, you know,

a face of the franchise monster kind of guy is just that you are giving up so much on the defensive end there, that there isn't more fight there. It feels like you're going to limit maybe what the team can become, especially if you're not shoring up things with the role players. And that hasn't seemed to be a priority yet on the defensive side of the ball. And so I, I, because he's such a negative on that end, it's hard to get, um, hyper pumped up about him being like an A1 dude long term. I mean, I think he's a great, great player and all star, all NBA caliber, all those things.

And he's one of my favorite dudes to watch. But just in that he, he does leave some things on the table. And you can build around some of these, you know, super duper offensive guards and and and make it a long way and and you know step wasn't a dud defensively he also wasn't some great big positive either and the warriors found out a way to make it work but you know you fear kind of the the dame in portland kind of thing where it's this big time uh offensive monster and a guy who is so much fun to watch but you can never quite put a

what feels like a real deal contender around them because the point of attack defense never gets to where it's supposed to be or people just start hunting you over and over and over. You know what I mean? I'm glad you mentioned Dame though because I was looking at our ringer top

100 before this and we have Halliburton 17 right and these are the guards we have ahead of him. It's Luca SGA, Steph Brunson and Booker. I would say it's fair, right? all those guys all above him. Behind him as of right now,

and this was, I think we last ranked them at the end of the regular season, so nothing since the playoffs. It's Murray, Mitchell, Fox, Brown, Dame, Kyrie, Jha. And so obviously the Kyrie one

looks quite bad right now. I'm sure that will change by the end of the post season. But like, I think the Dame comp is interesting because the one thing that I've noticed the most from Halliburn,

in addition to the defensive stuff that you're bringing up is how much he floats backwards as opposed to him going forward. And so if he's not going to drive the action, get to the rim, or create shots for others. The three ball has to be historic dame's death level, right? And the fact that that's not there, I wonder if he's got kind of stuck in that middle ground

where it's like, you either need to go down or back and up. So like one of those has to be elite for him to keep making those next steps. Now, I will say like full training camp with Seacum, Mathurin in there, all these things will help develop what they're doing there and I can't imagine the Pacers will be any lower than six next year even with the East looking like it might be rebounding at the top but

Jarous Walker will make an appearance at some point like there's maybe for another team for the magic yeah the do when you're the one I mean the one thing that feels unfair with

my damn thing is that Halberton's way, way, way better playmaker and passer than I think, then I think Dame at Dame's peak. Dame was, I think Halliburton's more of an assist man than a score.

I think part of the problem sometimes is he doesn't know when to balance that. And it feels like sometimes he needs to put the pedal down a little bit more and be a little bit more aggressive offensively than he is comfortable with yet. And then you have some of these situations where he does just dribble the ball off his knees.

out of bounds or whatever. Like some of those moments felt a little bit like the Chris Paul and the Clippers in 2014 against the Thunder where you're just like, this is a guy who I'm so happy when he has the ball. He's a locksmith. You're not getting it from him, you know, for 99 times out of 100. But for some reason, these huge moments, there are these weird little yips and turnovers that don't fit the player exactly. But, they happen, you know what I mean? And Halliburton having, having a few of those in game one was just, it was, it was, it was, uh, notable, you know, it was like a little bit of like, oh, man, I wish this, and

you know, like, you want to just, you want the young guys to meet the moment fully and just, like, be ready for the lights completely. And that's just completely unreasonable. Yeah. But, uh, but, uh, but yeah, it, it, where, like, where are you at on? What are you, what, what, what, what are your thoughts? mildly disappointed despite the fact that we know

that we should set the bar relatively low. The fact that they are in the Eastern Conference finals. Yeah, it feels like, yeah, that's a good, yeah, feels like we might be. That's the problem with the Pacers. It's like there's a lot of people complaining about not giving the Pacers their fair shake, or fair shake,

but it's like until they actually made the Eastern Conference Finals, I'm not sure anybody outside of Rekarles' locker room really thought that they were going to make the East. to conference finals. And so it's just like, it's hard to really calibrate on the fly like this, but clearly they're exceeding expectations. I just, it'd be nice if some of the dispositional things that you're referring to, like weren't there. Like if at the very least you had that

ant level, take the game by the throat, even if the results weren't behind it. And also just like the floating out past the three point arc almost toward the midcore and like the carries like on some of the clips if you look a little too deeply. It just feels all. It does feel like for sure that the Celtics have made him bump up against his current ceiling. You know what I mean? Like they're like he's, he needs to get to another level as a ball handler, I think, in order to be able to fully unlock, to be able to get consistent kind of space on some of these stepbacks that like you're saying,

he's going to have to, if he's not going to be a guy who's going to be getting stuff going to the rim and getting a lot of free throws and stuff like that, if he is going to kind of settle into a bombs away kind of dude, you know what I mean? Like, then, then all that stuff has to get, the more that stuff gets tightened, the more space he can get and inches or everything in these playoff games. You know, we saw that with the Dallas Thunder series with them, you know, the situations where it feels like the thunder are just a little bit too slow to get a three off and it's not there anymore. You know what I mean? Like there's some of there's some of that

with him. I mean, but it's all but it also feels like what the hell are we talking about? Halliburton's a great player. He's been heard like shut the hell up you guys. You know what I mean? Like they're like I totally would understand that. But yeah, I think you just like want to see just like and he has been better defensively. I think he just want to see like, I think he just want to see like, I wish that there was a little bit more effort. Like, don't, don't die on so many screens. You know what I mean? Just like, don't be so pumped up to give up a switch.

Like, you know what I mean? There's, there's, that doesn't feel like it's too much to ask, somebody who is a great player and, you know, clearly wants to be one of those dudes, right? Like it's like, well, it feels like we're moving to a place where these guys that are, unless you're just unbelievable offensively, unless you're just a freak of nature offensively from a scoring perspective, it feels like we're getting to a spot

where unless you can guard somebody, you know, like there's somebody else that deserves flowers before you, if that makes sense. Totally. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Reminder, the ringer is doing a live show,

Ringer NBA show, June 18th. at the Ringer residency, at the L-ray Theater. Get your tickets, theringer.com slash events. We'll be back tomorrow, I believe, a group chat on the Ringer NBA show feed. Thank you to Ben Cruz on production. Thank you to Jack Wilson. We will see you next time.