The Ringer NBA Show - Luka Debuts for the Lakers! Plus, Checking in on Other Trade Deadline Acquisitions. | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

Logan, Raja, and Howard get right into Luka Doncic’s debut as a Laker. How will the new-look Lakers pan out with Luka and LeBron, and how far can they go in the Western Conference (01:42)? Whose team is it between LeBron and Luka, and how can the team balance satisfying both stars' needs (16:49)? Jimmy Butler has looked solid in his first two games with the Warriors. Can they make a playoff push and avoid the play-in with Jimmy (39:43)? Logan is also joined by Joel Anderson and Bryan Curtis to discuss the state of the NBA and where the league and its players stand on social issues (1:18:04). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag!: [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell Guests: Bryan Curtis and Joel Anderson Producer: Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers here and we are back for another season of OffGuard. Me and my guy, Pasha Giggy, are hitting your podcast feeds every Monday and Thursday talking everything hoops. Austin is bringing that 11-year NBA veteran perspective and of course keeping you guys entertained throughout the season. Make sure you tap into OffGard with Austin Rivers on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow everything we've got going on social media, the OffGar podcast,

Ringer NBA, and of course check us out on Ringer NBA's YouTube channel. we're getting better what's popping Logan Murdoch here Roger Bell there Howard Beck in the motherfucking cut Cliff on the boards so mostly with the post

we're just trying to get to the ocean Oh, ooh We're here to talk about Um No I'm good Okay I just want to let that brief I was really proud of that

I was really proud of that Okay that was for effect Anyway Yeah that was for effect See if it was if it hit or not Um anyways We're here to talk about the ramifications of the trade deadline, talk about the first few games for the big time acquisitions of teams.

So let's just get right to it, man. So about the Los Angeles Lakers, which we tend to talk about a lot. Luca Donchitz had his debut last night in Los Angeles. He played really well. The Lakers beat the breaks off of the jazz. Let's start with Beck. What were your first impressions of Luca Dantzance in the Lakers? to form. He was fine. I mean, look, the dude hasn't played in over a month or whatever. Like,

it wasn't a Luca-like performance. So, and they're playing against, like, the Washington generals. So it's a little hard to judge there, too. You know what? You know what hit me last night watching Luca make his debut against the jazz and thinking, like, the jazz are just, like, stand-ins here. They're basically just like props for the Lakers to celebrate the next great era of Lakerdom, having brought in Luca to play with LeBron. And I thought, man, one of the last, like, I haven't been to that many games in L.A. in the last 10 years. But, like, Kobe's final game, the 60, 61 points or whatever was also against the jazz where

the jazz were just an afterthought. They were just pylons, like, standing out there. They were just, you know, they were there for decoration. They're the Washington generals. What can I say? Much different jazz team in 2016 than the one last night. But that struck me. Luca looked good, but not like Luca yet.

So I think we need to give him. him time to get back into into shape. I don't mean that pejoratively and I don't mean that as a slight and I don't mean that to reference that the Mavericks reasons for trading him. But he's been out for a while. He's been injured. So Luke is going to need some time. The Lakers are going to need some time to adjust to him. But like them immediately, Luca and LeBron just finding Jackson Hayes at the rim repeatedly for lob dunks is a nice sign for a team that doesn't have any bigs and is going to need to get some production and something at the rim. So good debut. with qualifiers and, you know, let's see how it goes from here.

I'm not going to get carried away. Yeah, I was fine with it. I mean, of the debut. It was okay. That's not a finished product for Luca like that. I mean, he was fine. The Lakers were fine. I was more excited that he came back and played the 24 minutes or whatever it was without

getting injured or having any kind of, you know, like when you come back off of something, like that and you're you're kind of out of shape like you know you you kind of worry about re-injuring it and he didn't do that and so I'm fine with it but but you know I'm with I'm with Howard like I mean clearly that's not the best version of Luca we've ever seen but he's he looked fine I was it made me like cautiously optimistic about what the Lakers can be and we'll talk about this later in the podcast because we're the Howard you're not going to believe this Roger Howard suggested we do predictions this episode so We're going to do that later in the show.

Predictions, just kind of impressions, like hunches? No, no, no, no. We'll see how he tries to flip it later in the podcast when I bring it up again. Roger put it. I was flabbergasted yesterday on the last show. It was crazy. But anyway, I thought he was really good based on the circumstances. He was out of shape.

It was crazy to kind of see him play within a flow of an offense that wasn't in his orbit, right? Like they were getting him off screens and stuff. Like they were getting him to move around and he seemed to buy in. He was sucking a lot of win. But I do like the fact that they could stagger him with LeBron. It's going to be two different styles throughout the season. And I mean, we're going to make fun of the Lakers for botching the Mark Williams trade fiasco or whatever. They didn't botched it, but somebody botched it.

We're going to make fun of that in a minute. But this could be a really fun small lineup team. They got a lot of capable defenders, and they could do some funky things, Roger. Like, I do, I kind of like what I see out of the Lakers here with this acquisition, right? Like, because on one hand, they ain't got no center, but they have Luca and LeBron and a whole bunch of defenders. I think I like what I see. And they're fifth in the Western Conference. So at any given time, two-thirds of your lineup aren't defenders, but we're going to be a good defensive team.

I just want to make sure. They're cool. I think they can do it. I mean, they have some pieces that defend, but like at any... They have some pieces that defend. 85% of the time, two thirds of your team, 40% of it are going to be defensive liabilities. That's going to be hard. But here's the thing.

Here's the thing. I was listening. This is what I was listening to. I was listening to the propaganda that, uh, that J.J. Reddick told, I think it was Sadano who was doing the, um, the, uh, the sideline. And JJ Reddick said the propaganda They asked him a question about Luca Like hey man what have you thought about how he's grown

And JJ Redick did the great coach thing Which is yo he's been he's grown so much Since I played with him He's been such a great defender and he has great potential as a defender I know they said it a lot But I was like oh yeah I mean I seen him playing stretches last year In a playoffs and like buy in through stretches right Maybe once or twice throughout the playoffs last year

I think do it if it gets in shape And I just I don't know I just talked myself into them being good even though they played the Washington Generals. I apologize. I did. No. Go ahead, Howard.

I was just going to say, they're 16th in defensive rating. So, like, they're middle of the pack. They're not terrible, but they're not great. They have been better. The last 15 games, they're, like, fourth in defensive rating. And, like, they really have been playing well prior to swapping Anthony Davis for Luca. But Anthony Davis was part of that, too, before he got hurt. He's one of the best defenders in the league.

I'm with Roger here. I'm skeptical of the Lakers. being a good to great. Okay, maybe I got really too excited. I apologize to all the, all the people listening that I wasted their time. But I just got really excited for one I saw, even though they were playing against the Washington generals and had the difficulty level on pro. I apologize.

My bad guys. It was just fun to watch. It was a great night of basketball last night for the Lakers. I apologize. Yeah, if you're a, look, if you're a Laker, if you're a Lakers fan, right? No, no. But all jokes aside, like, there are things to be excited about, right? like we've come on and said, where I've come on and said,

that eventually it is going to devolve into like Luca LeBron, Austin Reeves to some degree, ball in their hand, make something happen, like get us started, create a rotation defensively, let the ball start moving. How people figure out their way around being the complementary piece of that in a way that they haven't ordinarily in their career is going to be a big question. But if you told me that like, you know, we'll run offense and like most games you're running offense, I don't know, 65% of the time.

And then 35% of the time, we want to live in this ISO, you know, create a mismatch world. And I have Luca and LeBron. I'm fucking, I'm pretty excited. I'm pretty excited about that. Not to mention, you know, not just from the, from the purely. you know, pure, put it in the bucket. But like those two are two

are the most gifted passers and, you know, orchestrators of the chess pieces and being able to deliver the ball where their teammates need it when they want to of anybody in the NBA. So there are reasons to be excited. I just don't, you know,

I don't know that defense is one of necessarily for me. And I understand where you were at. I made it mistake, guys. That's okay. Okay. I was low, it was bad. A little back in the moment.

But sort of in a moment. I apologize. No, but like I got a little lag so sorry dudes. But like if you were going to tell me, right, like, I don't remember what pot it was, but, you know, for a while when Luca was buying in and playing a level of defense that was better than his normal brand in Dallas, like they were pretty good defensively. Like when he locks in and does that. So if like, you know, the one part that I never touched on was how good.

of a of a situation it could be for Luca to to to take the next step into his career with LeBron as his guide to that if he if he if he tightens up some of those areas like we already know what he is like he could be maybe who knows well so what back on that on that note what do you think the LeBron influences is going to be on Luca right now because it does feel like this is it's a it's a balancing act right like LeBron is also falling in line with the whole it seems like thus far, but also still is the spiritual leader of this team. And I feel like through a week or so, he's playing both roles well. How do you think his influence is going to have an effect on Luca and where he is right now

as he joins this team and gets into the fold? I mean, obviously great sign that LeBron, I assume, chose to be the next to last introduced and had Luca be the last introduced last night. Like, that is the honor that goes to the best player on team, right? So, Luca being introduced last was the right thing. Like, that's an easy one. It's not like LeBron's making some major sacrifice there. But symbolically, and as a gesture, I like that.

LeBron's clearly embraced him from the moment the trade happened, despite the fact that Anthony Davis, his friend and clutch colleague got sent out in the deal. Like, LeBron has to, he's been around a long time. He understands the business as well as the basketball of this league. And I think that LeBron is seeing this clearly, which is, one, in the short term, this might actually help me, you know, make a deep playoff run that we weren't going to make otherwise if we can eventually plug up the center spot. And two, you know, LeBron knows, like, whatever he's going to do.

It's a year, two, maybe more. Like, he has to see that the Lakers are planning for the few years. future beyond him. But in the meantime, his impact can be form this partnership with Luca, mentor him as well as I can. And that, I think, to the crux of your question, Logan, like, I'm really curious about this, right? Like, it's not controversial to say that Luca had bad work habits or was out of shape at times. It is not controversial at all because there is loads and loads of data to support that and anecdotal evidence to support that. And it goes back years. There was a piece this morning on Substack by Jerry Engelman who used to work with the Mavericks where he

was noting some of his observations from the time that he was working with the organization as an analytics guy. The concerns about Lucas's conditioning and his seriousness about his body or lack thereof are legit. LeBron is the opposite end of the spectrum. He is, you know, we know, like when he spends a million a year, two million a year, whatever it is on his body. Will that rub off on Luca directly, indirectly? How direct can LeBron be about that? Is Luca open to that kind of like peer-to-peer coaching? He clearly wasn't listening enough to the Mavericks.

If he were, if he had, he'd still be there. But, you know, LeBron's a whole different level of influence. LeBron's a guy that Luca was, you know, looking up to. as, you know, as an icon and, you know, you know, kind of his basketball hero from the time that he was, you know, like a preteen. So it's going to land different coming from LeBron. And I have to think that Lucas is serious enough about his game and his career that he'll be open to everything LeBron tells him in the months and maybe years to come here. No, it's not going to hurt. Like, LeBron, if you want, let me ask a question.

question before I launch into this. Why is the Luca fan? Like, why does the Luca fan, Howard, like, you talked about your experience with them. Like, why, why are they so, I don't know, man, why are they, why are they, why do they go into attack mode when you just point out those obvious things, though? Like, like, they're not fair to point out. Like, you know what I mean, like the, like, the Lucas stands today are what like Kobe stands were at their peak. We're at a certain point he could do no wrong, Kobe, and Luca can do no wrong and pointing out things that the entire rest of the world that the whole league sees,

if you say it as a pundit, or if you report it, that other people around the league might be saying it, yeah, the attack dogs just come out. Raj, there's a whole deeper, like, psychological study to do here. I think it's just part of modern fandom and maybe social media fandom, which is different than like normal every day, talking to a guy at the bar or at the arena or whatever fandom.

I don't quite understand it myself. But yeah, there's a whole new level of like kind of psycho drama that goes with today's fans who are, they treat their favorite player as infallible as demigods who cannot be criticized and who have no faults and how dare you say anything about them. It's really weird and it's really unsettling. But if it really is. It gets really nasty and aggressive very quickly. Like it's it's really weird But to the point To the point you guys were making man

Like if you if you are serious about your craft And I know Luca to To be serious about his craft Now there are levels to even that Right like when you're talking about Your craft as an incredible player And then taking that next step into your craft As an incredible champion

You know like there's steps that even grates take in regards to their craft. But if he's serious about it, there's no better person for what he may need at this point than LeBron to model your day-to-day after. And even if you were to get to, I don't know, 50% let's say of what LeBron is in terms to,

I mean in terms of like, you know, preparation, taking care of your vessel and your instrument, you know, making sure that it's being fueled. Even if you took 50% of that, you would be a much better pro. Any of us would be, not just Luca. So, you know, if that's one of those situations where honestly, like, for him, not as a,

not as a, not as a, a skilled player, but as some of the other things that come along with being an all-time great, for you to, you know, take that next step in your career, no better place. if you want to model after someone then being right next to LeBron. It can't hurt.

But also the other thing is, and I want to get Beck's perspective on this, the Lakers have a bit of a balancing act, right, that they need to have with both of these personalities. Now, I think it's great that LeBron has acquiesced and said, oh, this is probably, it's seen the writing on the wall. I was like, oh, I guess this is Lucas team.

To the point also where I was reading this David Minam in the story, that was really good. Like, Luca push to get Mark Williams, the push for the Mark Williams trade. When they asked for, who do you want to play with? He said, Mark Williams, they went and got the winning got him. Now it fell through, but that shows the early signs that this is going to be Lucas' organization, if it isn't already. But what's the balancing act?

Because it's still LeBron James, Beck. Like, he's not going to, you can't just push him to the wayside altogether, right? Like, you still got to appease him in some ways. How do they do that? by including him in those conversations. Like, you know, McMinneman's story did, yeah, did note that Luca was one who pushed for Mark Williams specifically or maybe suggested. I can't remember the exact framing of it. Did they also seek LeBron's input on that?

That's not clear. When the next round of personnel decisions comes about around draft time or between draft and free agency as they're trying to retool, Like, they're going to once again be out in the market to find a center, right? Like, that's probably, you know, number one priority when we get to the offseason for the Lakers. Are they going to seek both of their opinions? Are Luca and LeBron going to spend time, whether it's now or in the off season, like, kind of like having these meetings of the mind so, like, they can say, oh, you know, you know who would be really great with us, this guy. And then maybe they're both going to them. Like, you know, I think LeBron's been there long enough that his relationships,

with Polinka, with Jeannie Bus, with others in the organization, those are already established. There's been tensions at times, to be clear. Like, let's not pretend like everything changes because Luca got there. Like, there have been, it's been a roller coaster for LeBron and the Lakers, I think, in terms of their relationships over the course. I'll add LeBron Clutch and the Lakers. Yes. Fair. There have been times that things were very strained.

And a lot of like, you know, when things were going bad with the Westbrook deal, a lot of like the Lakers saying, oh, it's not our fault. LeBron wanted this. LeBron an AD pushed for this, you know. So there have been tensions. I think it was better in the last year or so. It seemed like things had kind of gotten to a really good place between LeBron and the organization. But Luca introduces a new element there.

And I do think they have to navigate it. I do think they have to navigate it carefully. I do think the smart thing to do is to make sure that however much you're consulting with Luca, you're still consulting with LeBron, partially just out of respect and longevity and all that other stuff. But he won your, you know, he won a championship for your organization. He's, you know, one of the smartest players, as JJ Reddick knows well, because they did a podcast together for, you know, several weeks breaking down the game. Like, LeBron's super smart about the game. Now, players aren't always, by the way, the best scouts.

They're not always the best judges of who fits, which is why you have to tread lightly when they're saying, go get me. this guy or that guy in the draft or for agency or trade. But yeah, they should all be involved. Like, don't make LeBron feel like you've already like shoved him, you know, one foot out the door on the way to retirement. I don't think that would go well in the short term. Let's look at this because I'm going to transition to the Dallas point of view on this because we're going to talk about Anthony Davis and his start as woof. But before I get to that, there was a lot of I feel like there is

at least from the MAVs standpoint there are the people that made the deal, the new MAVs let's call them the new MAVs right that made the deal to have Luca traded to the Lakers and then there's the old MAVs contingency the Mark Cubans of the world

the Dirk Nevinsky's of the world who are sitting next to Luca Dodgers's dad during Luca's first game, right? What do you guys think about this theater that's going on right here? I'll start with Raj. What do you think about what's all of this stuff that's going on? Because there seems to be a disconnect here from, and understandably so,

from fractions of the Mavericks dynasty you would call it. I don't know what we call it die, but the fractures in the castle. Well, you know, anytime there's a regime change, you know like there's there's potential for the new regime to come in and start moving in a way that the old one doesn't agree with and I mean I don't know how I feel about it I'm just watching it play out in real time like clearly you know the ones that are that are most heavily invested in Luca and having him there and drafting him and developing him and the person the player the family like this isn't a moment. that they would have made under any circumstances.

And, you know, I think they've, they've said that in so many words. The new regime clearly saw it differently. And for whatever reason, because I've seen the conspiracy theories out there about about why they would not want him to be there. Like, I've read all of that. But let's just say it's, for argument's sake, purely about conditioning and leadership and shape and all of that. And again, I want to make sure that the Luca fan understands.

as we were potting a few days ago, like, I wasn't weighing in on whether or not I would have traded Luca for the reasons that I was, those are the reasons that they clearly traded him. Like,

that's what the people in the building are saying. And my point was like, how bad did it have to be in their eyes for them to get to that point? And, and, you know, like,

that's just a, it's just a fascinating, like, you know, kind of thing to watch. The, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

, Mark and those dudes and Dirk, there was a different NBA we played in. Like, it was a relationship business. It was, you know, we did drink locker rooms. I mean, beers in locker rooms. Shit, after playoff games, I'd be in a hot tub with Steve Nash.

We'd be knocking down multiple beers, like before we went to the shower. Not for nothing, Roger. Some teams still do drink beers in the locker room after day. Yeah. So like, so you're trying to bridge like, the old NBA versus the new, you know, how we're going to do stuff and take care of our body. And there are just differences of opinions there. And it's fascinating to watch. I don't know

that I have a real opinion on it. It's just interesting to see the two parties within one organization and how they're kind of viewing, you know, the team, Luca and the future through the different lenses. Beck, I, like, I said this last week, no matter what the Mavericks have done trade-wise to help their team or whatever, they have clearly lost the PR battle and they have clearly lost the fan base with this move, right? Even if they win,

I don't think it will be as satisfactory as winning with Luca, right? Like, this was very much a visceral reaction and response to this move. Do you feel like the Mavericks just kind of overplayed their hand? Like, maybe on paper, yeah, we get Anthony Davis

and we'll talk about the fit and what happened to Anthony Davis in a second. but like did they really overlook what they were not supposed to overlook in trading this this pillar of not only the team but the city itself yeah not to belabor how big of a disaster the deal is we've we've discussed this at length there's no dispute about this across the league there's no like you know passionate uh justifiable minority view here of like well actually they were smart to do this because no it doesn't exist I will note, though, Beck.

Cliff said it was a good deal. As soon as it happened, as soon as it went down, Cliff was the first one in the chat to say, it's a good deal for the back. You saw a clip under the bus. Cliff, you coming in or what? Cliff, open the window, my boy. Look, man.

All right, all right, all right. Look, look, look, look, look, look. I was on vacation. I had a couple of, I was in DR. I had a couple drinks in me. The thing popped up on my feet. And I'm like, wait, look it to the late. I couldn't believe it.

I thought it was a hoax, right? And then immediately I thought to myself, you know what? I can see Anthony Davis doing something with the Mavericks. Like, Mabs want to trade right away. In the short, in the short, but in the long term, you know what I mean? You get the 25-year-old superstar.

I knew that. I came to my senses a couple hours later. That's all the one. That wasn't what was said in the chat, though, who was just like, good move for the Babs. I didn't, yo, I couldn't go into detail because I was out. I was in the mix. I was, my phone.

It was a D.R. out here, party. It was like, good move for the maps. My phone was going on. I saw what y'all said. I said, good move for the maps. And then I went back to doing my thing. That was all.

Hey, Eagles won a Super Bowl, my wife. Eagles, won the Super Bowl. There we go. Fly, Eagles, fly, go birds. You already know. Two and seven years. Ami running the back next year. Oh, all right.

Okay, okay. Anyway, so go ahead. There's the basketball part. But then, yes, there's also the fan part, right? You cannot ever do anything in this league without considering the fact that the entire economy of this league is built on the passion and loyalty and emotions of the fans. And so not only did you trade a guy who's still not even yet at his prime, who's one of the best three players on Earth for a package that everybody agrees universally across the NBA was not sufficient. But on top of it, yeah, you've alienated your fans because they have an emotional attachment to Luca. even if the fans, even if every single one of them were to admit, you know what?

He hasn't been in the greatest of shape. He hasn't been the best teammate. But he's our guy. He's our guy. We've had this guy since day one. We made this amazing draft day trade to get this guy when other teams passed on him. He took us to the finals. Like we're riding with him, you know, no matter what.

Like, because that, that's the thing, right? Howard. What's that? Tread lightly. We're just trying to have your back. We're just preemptively just trying to have your back, bro. tread lightly, sir. What am I?

I'm just saying. No, my bad. I'm a joke. It's a poor attempt at a joke. I was saying you're getting dangerously close to the, to any, like, to the Luca line. So like, make sure you stay on our side of it. No, I got you.

No, so like, well, I did say if Luca fans could actually see where his faults were. But every, every franchise star, right? Listen, you played with AI. A.I. Certainly had his faults. But he got the Sixers to a finals and, and made the Sixers. relevant and competitive for a long time.

Joelle and Beads certainly got his faults. Kobe and Shaq had their faults when I covered them. You understand that you're buying into a complete package that is going to have some downside at times. And at times, fans are going to be frustrated with their franchise star too. But he's your guy. So it's like, we'll live with that. And we'll tell the Howard Bex of the world that he's wrong about Luca

and to shut the bleep up about. his shape and his conditioning and his whatever. But amongst ourselves, we'll talk about it, because that's the way this goes, right? It's like family. You can criticize him. Nobody else in the outside can. But the Mavericks as an organization did not respect that. They didn't understand that in the moment. And you could tell that even in the messaging since then, they just have not grasped the emotional toll. Now, they have grasped on some level because they've seen the backlash. They've seen the protests. They've seen the mock funeral processions. And last night, they tossed multiple fans for either signs or verbally saying fire Nico.

So, which by the way, terrible way to handle this. Like, I know it's uncomfortable. I know it's not great. I know Nico Harrison and the owner Patrick Dumont both skipped the first game back after the trade, but they were there last night. Let your fans vent. Allow them this. It's legitimate.

And that's part of their fandom too. If you want them there spending their hard-earned money, cheering for your team, buying your jerseys, buying your overpriced beers, then give them the latitude to also be pissed off and scream and sell the team or fire the GM or whatever. Like, deal with it. This is a move you made. You're going to stand by it. Great.

But you have to deal with the downside of it too. And running from that isn't helping anybody. And it's not respecting your fans because their emotions and their hurt is real. And I'll just note one more thing. So Patrick Dumont, who's now the majority owner with the Adelson family, gives an interview to the Dallas Morning News on Sunday in which he's talking about why they made the deal and character and all these things. And he says, quote, if you look at the greats in the league, the people you and I grew up with Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal. They worked really, really hard every day with a singular focus to win. And if you don't have that, it doesn't work. And if you don't have that, hold on. Hold on. If you don't have that, you shouldn't be part of the Dallas Mavericks. That's the full quote from Patrick Dumont, which one cited Shaq who did not. Thank you. work all that hard as everybody around that the league knew at the time. Also, Shaq told you himself on record multiple times that he.

Shaq got toe surgery once right on the eve of training camp and then said, I'm going to heal on company time. I'm not doing it on my time. Like, this is the whole crux of Shaq and Kobe's fallout, like among other things. But a huge piece of it was the disconnect between them in terms of their work habits. So citing Shaq was dumb. But also, who's missing from this sentence? of icons and role models and people who were looking up to and saying are the way to do this, who are setting the tone. Oh, I don't know. The guy whose statue is outside your freaking arena.

The guy who was in LA last night sitting next to Luca's dad cheering for Luca. So if you don't name Dirk, that's just a massive unforced error there. It's just a bad gaff by the new owner. So like on every level that, and again, ejecting fans for saying things and having signs that that were, you know, indicating they're pissed off about the trade. Like, they're, they're just blowing this on every level. I, it's just a masterclass and just terrible, I don't know, it's just a masterclass and terrible ballout management. And then we haven't even talked about the on-the court stuff, Raja.

Anthony Davis out multiple weeks. I want to ask you a question. I want to ask a question, though, because I am fascinated by this. And again, I want to say that I agree with. every reason you guys have said, I did last time, why it's bad trade. Like, I agree with all of that. Do you think there was a world where done in a more open format, testing the waters of what we could get, getting more of a return for it?

This would be any different? Or was this just a world where you weren't going to be able to part with Luca if you wanted to? Not Rajah, not Howard, not, not Logan, but like if the Mavs, because this is all was saying was like if if knowing all of that you still felt like you had to do that my question was how bad has it been there and I'll stand by that like I don't think you do that like waking up one morning saying gonna move him like this is this is something that that at least suggests to me has been brewing and it's and it and the and the situation is not great there so my question to you all

is there a world where they could have gotten anything else much more substantial return for it where the Mav and the Luca fan would be like, okay, we get it. Or was this destined to be? Because that's an incredible situation. Like I can never move that piece. I don't think that, I think the relationship between Luca and Dallas, if you traded it for anyone, it would have elicited a similar reaction. That's what I think.

Because he has that relationship with Dallas and the way the Dirk does, right? He was past the torch from Dirk to. be the next guy and be there for the rest of his career. And like, you just don't, also from another standpoint, I think Monty Jones brought this up on his podcast, which is a city like Dallas, where the Mavs are probably what the third or fourth team at best, right? Like, they're not the biggest show in town. You get a guy like a Dirk or a Luca. That gets people in the stands and that gets people to care about your team. And like, it's hard to make an enroad in that type of city.

So when you push a guy out that the city rallies around, you, from all parts, I don't know, all different types of Mavericks fans, black, white, Hispanic, you name it, they all love Luca, all of them. No doubt. No doubt. And now to do that, I think so, to answer your question for me, I think if you traded it for anybody, there would have been a some sort of uproar. I agree with that.

I agree with that. Yeah. There's a, you know, Roger, your point is valid. There's a part of this where no matter what you, you could have gotten the best return in history. And the story I wrote last week on the ringer.com, I actually had another GM saying, basically, if they had done this right, they would have gotten the best haul in trade, NBA trade history. Even in that scenario, whatever, you can, you know, let your imagine run wild. Whatever. however many picks, players, stars, whatever you would have gotten in return.

It still would have stung. Mass fans still would have been pissed that Luca is no longer a Maverick and justifiably so. But if trading him were justified based on the merits, based on their misgivings or concerns about him, fine. But yeah, you're going to deal with some fallout regardless. The way to minimize that fallout or at least offset it is to have made a better trade. Yeah. And they didn't. and so it makes it exacerbates it.

Or throw some good old-fashioned leaks out there to the press, Beck. What's up? Or throw some good old-fashioned leaks out to the press, you know? It just it heads your bet. You know how they do. Here's the thing. Rod know how they do. Respect for the Mavericks fans who were there at the game on, what was it,

Saturday when AD made his debut. And like they were all out for him, right? I think they're obviously pissed about Luca, but man, they were absolutely supporting Anthony Davis. He was playing his ass off. He had an incredible first half. And then they're still cheerily for their team. And then Anthony Davis went down on a non-contact injury and now is out for weeks, which

like Anthony Davis in a nutshell. Anthony Davis in a nutshell. Dominant when he's healthy, not healthy often enough. And everybody in the league could have told you that this was what you were possibly buying into. And already the consequences of this trade are evident. So look, they could still, you know, whether it's this season or next or however long Anthony Davis has left in his career, maybe Nico Harrison gets to have the last laugh. Maybe they get vindicated at some point. I'm very skeptical of that. But in the near term, this is exactly the nightmare that you could have foreseen, which is you traded 25, 26 year old Luca for a 32 year old Anthony Davis. Roger Smirking. In his first game, he got.

Roger Smirking. Roger's smirking. Listen, well, I just want to be clear, right? I want to be clear for anyone listening, like, as we've kind of navigated the trade, and I've had, like, tried to be really, I've tried to see it through, you know, both lenses and both people's perspectives. If you've listened to this show for any extended period of time, you know where I stand on Anthony Davis.

I've made that really clear. So, like, I just was sitting watching that. Before it was in style, Rob, before it was his style. Oh, before it was in style. And, like, I felt, oh, my God, watching, watching him just, I'm here, I'm here. And that thing was electric and it was rocking. And the MAZ fans were all in. And where Nico and-

Wait, Rosa, Rosa, real quick. Did you see, did you see the tweet that came out with the I'm here video? and it said Anthony Davis introducing himself to the Mabbs medical staff. No, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. But man, listen, bro, when he, I was just trying to like put myself in, in, like, I was trying to put myself in the seats with ownership and, and, and brass when, when the game started and you're watching it. And all, all the realm of possibilities are still on the table as far as how this can play out.

and boom, here he goes. And you're like, fuck yes. They fucking right. Like, there we go. And you're right in that wave of emotion. And then he, Anthony Davis, is you. And how the win that had to be sucked out. Right.

You know how much I had to hear from Laker fans? Roger fans over the last year. Jomey, Jomey. I'm talking to you, Jemey. How many times are here? Well, he was actually healthy last year, guys. He's actually been taking it on the chin. has been playing, you know, he's actually, you know, he's turned a quarter.

He has played, he has gotten to the 70 game mark, I think, twice in his entire career. Twice, there's a couple of truncated seasons in there, but still. There wasn't nobody in Nico Harrison's orbit to be like, hey, I mean, yeah, all the things you say it is cool, but like, have you seen his injury history? This wasn't a mystery. Yeah. Are you, you'd be like, yeah, Nico is my dude. I fire Nico a text every now and again, too. I wish I had no, Nico.

I'd have done that for you. I'd have been like that one. You short, Nico, that one. That's, hey. That one? That's why you need a Roger Bell on your team. That's why you need a Roger Bell on your team. Did you hear Mark Cuban clowning the trade too, by the way? Yeah, I did.

Mark Cleveland was calling the trade. Bro, everybody who, like is a Mavericks legend, because, like I said, these are some new Mavs. These ain't the Mavs that was locked in, right? The old Mavs is like, this is so dumb. This is so stupid. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness. Oh, well.

Let's talk about some positivity, okay? Let's just, let's talk. Let's let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler. Look, hey, hey. Jimmy Butler's are now our positive.

Hold on. How about that? Howard, Howard, I just want to give flowers to Howard motherfucking Beck because he is just a beacon of optimism because he always takes the high road. Like, hey, it's going to be great. So far, so good, the Warriors, two-oh with Jimmy B. Right? Who, they went into Chicago, where's Darryl 24, came back in one.

Last night, without Yannis, we're not going to talk about that part of it. But they played against the Bucks. Had control the whole game played with some passion. Went small? That shit don't count. Raja, Raja, just relax. Listen, I'm all geeked up with you, but that we ain't going to count. We don't get to.

We were out of that. That's the thing. Roger, I'm trying to set it up. I'm trying to set it up for the Bay people that are listening to this. The warrior fans are besides themselves. They're so excited right now. It's crazy. 2-0.

What do we feel? We already know what Roger feels right quick. He's going to go on his rant in a second. Beck, first two games, Jimmy Butler, Golden State Warrior. Per usual, I'm not going to overreact, but I think you're seeing exactly what the Warriors hoped for in this scenario. Jimmy Butler runs the offense when Steph is off the court and the offense doesn't just like fall off a fucking cliff

every time Steph needs a breather because Jimmy's out there able to run the offense and create plays. Jimmy Butler has I think 10 assists in his first two games, five per game. So now you've got three guys with him and Dremont and Steph who can keep the offense humming. That's huge. But the free throws, the free throw.

28 free throw attempts. 28 free throws in two games, which is according to a couple people have noted this, so I won't cite any specific person, but like 28 free throws in two games is the most in a two game span by a warrior since Kevin Durant in 2018. It's been seven years since the Warriors had somebody generate 28 free throws in a two game span. That's what Jimmy does, though. Like, this is not some outlier. This is what, this is Jimmy's offense.

as Raj just told it said us said last week grimy and the warriors before they got jimmy were 27th in the NBA in free throw attempts 30th in free throws made and 30th in free throw percentage despite the fact that step curry is like the greatest free throw shooter on earth percentage wise that's all huge and then nothing even you know amidst all of that I don't think anything is bigger than Steph saying quote every possession just does doesn't feel as hard. Like, Steph is just telling you right now, like, my job has just gotten easier. And Steph has exploded the last couple of games. And he, you know, you can see, like, it was wearing on him trying to carry this offense by himself at times for the last couple of months.

On top of it all, we could, you know, this is, it's a mixed bag on this one. Jonathan Cummina is not even playing yet. So when Cummina gets back, that's one more guy who can attack the rim, who brings some athleticism and some finishing, how he fits as, as a, you know, mesh shooter. when they need to play Jimmy and Draymond, too. We'll see. But like there's still potentially a even better version of the Warriors here when Kamenga gets back. Championship on the horizon, Roger?

Her? No, Larry O'Brien covered to the Bay Area. No, no, I ain't know, you put words in my mouth. But I will say it gives them that, it gives them that puncher's chance. And like Howard, you know, when Howard was talking about it last week and you kind of asked me what I thought of it, And I thought it would work too. The caveat for me is always the other stuff.

And I even admitted that like at least early in the experiment, you're going to get the best version of it. Like you're going to get the best version of Jimmy for a while, right? So like if we're assuming that, then I thought too that like it was going to work on the court. And for, you know, for a lot of the reasons Howard just said, look, when you're down at the end of ball games and I talk about this a lot, having multiple guys that you can give a ball to and can close games for you, right? Like, and that's what Kevin Durant brought to the Warriors the first time he showed up.

Well, when people hear that, they always think that, like, it's getting the bucket. Like, they see, they visualize the move and the jumper or the layup and it going through the net in this spectacular way and they're making these contested shots. But it's not always about that. it's about being able to get to that damn free throw line to like to to to really put pressure on the defense by way of getting them in foul trouble getting them in the bonus so now they can't defend you the same way or you're at the free throw line all of the ramifications that a physical beat you up I get to the free throw a lot a lot type of player brings with him um and the ability to score you know obviously like the kd and jimmy ken when he's hot like that was something that was hugely missing in Golden State. And when you watched him play the other night, like I think it supports kind of the idea that like,

Jimmy's kind of used to that. Like you saw him on a few of those plays that were designed for him to, you know, come off with some actions and they're trying to top lock it. And he and he and, he and, uh, Draymont Griffin are already on the same page. And so he just throws it up to the rim and Jimmy catches it and like lays it.

Like he's got some familiarity with running around a little bit, um, that I, that I, that I actually, yeah. You know, I did not hate it at all. I just, it always boils down to the human being.

And when, when, if, if and when that expiration date kind of happens or people start getting sideways with each other. But that, you weren't ever going to see that, like in the immediacy of the Jimmy Butler move. Especially we got $120 million in his pocket. Yeah. I'll be all right. We'll be far.

You know what I mean? Let's do it. It's cool. But I think you saw, you know, just being around this team for a long time, like you saw an edge that she really didn't. see much of this season, right? Like, they slowed the game down. I don't remember a game that they have been in control throughout, right?

Granted, they were playing against a Janus-less Milwaukee Bucks team, right? Like, take that with a great assault. But just for, just to slow the game down, you see Jimmy Butler taking a guy down on the post, he's sealing in the paint, right? He's just, he looked like the OG in the park. I mean, that's Jimmy's game, right? He just looked like big OG vibes in the park. Can't hit a three to save his life.

But he's going to be in that paint. He's going to be getting to the free throw line. He's going to do the thing where he has one guy holding his arm. But he's holding his arm on the low. And he throws a layup in and one, right? Like just shit that Rajat does with his kids now to win the game. Just cheat. But you saw more of that within the offense.

And the warriors needed more than anything, just an edge now, and they have that with Jimmy Butler. Sorry. I want to attempt to like articulate what that does, like the, what that does to a defense, like the bind that that put a defense in when you come into a game and, and the team that you're playing against can flow in and out of different play styles, right? Like, so Golden State typically is a continuity, fly-around, Steph-centric team, right? And so we're going to work, you know, maybe not as much in the regular season because you don't have as much time, right?

But like in the playoffs and I have time to really do an advanced scout of it and get your actions down. What we're going to do defensively against that becomes a choreographed dance just like the offense itself, right? And so we're going to walk through that with it. Boom, switch. Okay, you know this is coming. Okay, switch. Boom. You know, this is coming.

You know, like we're just going to, we're going to imitate that. We'll know it like the back of our hand. Now, it's easier said than done stopping it, but we kind of are as prepared as we can be to stop that. Now, you throw in a KD or in this instance of Jimmy Butler where they don't got to play like that. This is, old man at the park, give him the ball, space the floor. Now we've got to have an answer for that.

So if it's not like an individual defender, like we have one of the best defenders on the planet that can kind of counter that and we're going to leave him alone, now this is a whole other choreograph dance we got to get into. We never know when they're going to flow in and out of either one. And it just adds levels to your preparation for them. It adds margin of error for them as an offense, because they can play you different ways depending on what you're trying to do to them,

that they just didn't have the luxury of having before you had Jimmy Bowler. That's why it was such bullshit from like Warrior fans and just the national narrative when KD was there. Oh, man, like we're still good, better without KD. Bro. Fuck out of here. Just for that alone, obviously we're talking about like Katie and Jimmy Butler, who are all-star players. But the fact that they can give contrast to that offense is something that really unlocked it.

Because at times during the Steph Curry era, they could get a bit predictable. And when you slowed them down in big moments, I'm thinking about the 2016 finals, you could really disrupt them. if you just played hard-nosed defense and got into the passing leads and made them work and made the game muddy. The anecdote to that is a Jimmy Butler who's like, oh, yeah, I love the mud. I'm here. Give you the fucking ball and the pain. Let's slow this shit down. And I can get you a bucket or I can get to the free throw lines, throw it up some bullshit and get to the three-throw line 15 times a game.

Like, that's what is great about the Jimmy Butler's and the KDs and what they need that contrast to make this offense better. So, all right. Plus they've got rookie of the year Quentin Post, so that's good. Yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say the name of the person that said this. But I was at a Warriors game, and this is early in Quentin Post's tenure. They said he looks more like Quentin Perimeter. That's pretty good. I'll tell you guys all fair, but it was great.

It was fantastic because he wasn't getting a board or nothing. He was just shooting threes. Anyways, let's make some predictions per Howard Beck's request. We just talked about, there were some other things that we wanted to talk about. I could just say that Deere Fox, we'll talk about him later. Deere Fox has been up and down with the San Antonio Spurs, just like I kind of predicted. Anyways, but we'll talk about that later. Let's predict the big trades and what's going to happen.

Let's start off Beck with the Los Angeles Lakers. Prediction time. What do you predict is going to happen for the rest of the way here? I think the Lakers, yeah. I mean, listen, we didn't cover the Mark Williams fiasco, but having to rescind that trade and bring players back and all that and still not have a center other than Jackson Hayes, not great.

And I think the lack of size and depth is going to hurt them over the course of the next couple of months. The West is in just a weird state of flux after Oklahoma. So it's hard to look at the Lakers and go like, oh, well, they'll be in trouble because X, Y, Z, these teams are all going to be better than them. I'm not sure. I'm just really not sure. So chances are that they're going to be right where they are right now. Somewhere in the middle of the playoff pack. They're in that four or five range. Maybe they fall to six. I think the concern is more of this. My prediction of Lakers is this. They might win a playoff round. They're probably not winning a second round because the second they come up against a

team with size. I'm thinking Oklahoma with Hartenstein and Chet Holmgren or the Nuggets with Yokic who smoked them even when they had Anthony Davis. The Lakers are just not, as great as Luca is and as much respect as I have for him and LeBron and as well as they've been playing. Like the Lakers do not have the personnel it's going to require to get through two, three rounds of playoffs. Like this is not a contender this season. and I'm not even guaranteeing they get out of the first round. But, you know, look, you didn't make the Luca trade for this June. You made it for the future.

Also, if someone were to tell you, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on that, if someone were to tell you after Polinka after this trade, you get Luca and you get a five seat and you win a playoff round with this roster, yeah, I'm taking that. I'll take it. It's fine. It's not necessarily. Yeah.

What do you think about the Lakers, Raja, going forward? Yeah. No, I think Howard. nailed it. Like I could see them. Honestly, I could see them anywhere from third to probably sixth in there. I think that regular season, actually they are going to be tougher than they would be over the course of a series and it's going to be matchup based. I agree with just about everything Howard said there. They're a matchup team. Right. Like if you have something

that's punitive by way of around that glass and on the boards and, you know, interior-wise, that's going to be a struggle for them. So, you know, for that reason, I don't know where they wind up ultimately in the Western Conference playoffs, but because the Western Conference is just like wide open outside of the top of it, like, I mean, I'm not totally mad at it. I don't know what to say other than that. Like, I don't think they win a championship this year. But they could, they could have gotten Luca and be very happy with, hey, man, we're, we're

cool. We'll address what we need to address in the office. season. One of the quick note on them, by the way, according to Tankathon's remaining schedule assessment, strength of schedule, the Lakers have the eighth toughest remaining schedule that includes two games against the Thunder, the game against the Celtics, the game against the Grizzlies, game against the Knicks, three against the Nuggets still, two against the Rockets. So like the schedule may have something to do with this too and the Lakers just may wear down. So, I mean, we'll see what happens. But if the playoffs ended today, they'd be playing the Rockets. which would be, I would take the Lakers of that. I'm sorry. I would too. Let's go with the Dallas Mavericks. Howard, what do you think going forward?

I think they're sliding. I think that this is so catastrophic. And it's going to end terribly this summer and beyond, bro. It's cookies. Like, we went from them being, oh, they could be second in the West, Charles Barkley said, to now, like, you have no Anthony Davis. They're reeling. The fans of revolt.

said it is not good in Dallas right now. No, and they lost Daniel Gafford to an knee injury last night, I think. Lively's already out for a long stretch here. Anthony Davis is now out. Is PJ Washington banked up too, I think? Like, they're beat to hell right now. So on that alone, it's hard to see the Mavericks doing much over the next couple of months or in the playoffs if they even make it there.

on top of that, you know, even if they were at full strength, I had some concerns and skepticism about them because I just think that they're going to be very Kyrie reliant. And you can't count on Kyrie or Anthony Davis to stay healthy for any length of time. And Kyrie so far has this season. But no, look, add everything up, the trade, the vibes, the injuries, all of it. The Mavericks are eighth as of right now. But they're a game out of, they're a game ahead of 11th. place, which is out of the play-in, and I think that's where they land. I think the Mavericks missed the play-in entirely. I think they finish no better than 11th when all is said and done. I agree, too. And also, you noted in that game last night that Gavre got hurt. That was against the Kings who are battling with them for that playing. That was a wild finish, too. Kings Mavericks with the back and forth between. It was DeMarter Rosen and Clay Thompson. That was a great finish. I agree with you. The Mavericks' vibes are all bad. Are you? Are you, agree with that too, Raja?

This is, yeah, kind of, but different than you guys. This is totally health dependent for me. Okay. This is totally based on, on, you know, I didn't even know the Gafford situation, but AD's availability or lack thereof, you know, and the other pieces being out. Because when I watch, now, this could have been the building and it could have been all of the, you know, effects of the Luca trade and the built up, pent up frustration and everything like that.

but I saw a stingy fucking defensive unit. Like I did. I mean, I saw people, I saw people making extra efforts and plays at the rim and trying to block. They were stingy and the, and they were flying around. And I thought that was really sustainable.

And then, and then AD went down, right? Now I'm not, again, I'm not sitting here. This has got nothing to do with Luca. But if they were healthy,

I, I thought that they could, they could maybe up movers in the, Western Conference, honestly. I thought that they would be moving up. Without them in the lineup, without AD obviously and the other bigs, like, I don't know what they become. So I will agree with you guys just because I don't know how long he's out.

And those groins are weird, right? Or those abdominal pulls are weird. Like you saw Quinn Ewers this year go out with one. And he was never really the same quarterback from Texas. Like he was never really the same even when you come back. So I tend to agree with you guys. But I just want to put a fucking fine point on that. They were, that was going to be a stingy-ass defensive unit.

And you saw them the first game, too, which is sad. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, how dominant they could be in AD's first game. Last one. I'll start this off. We're going to go with the Warriors. I think that they just stay in within the playing mix. I don't see them getting to the sixth seed.

And maybe I could be wrong, right? Like, but they, one thing that they do have for them, we brought up Tankathon. They have the 19th hardest schedule in the league. right they play um they play memphis one time they play the nicks twice uh denver twice um the rockets and uh and uh the clippers as well um they could i know i just i don't see them making it run i think they're a really good basketball team but i don't think that they're whole as they can be so i think they just stay within the playing mix maybe they get into a first round series maybe not but i

think that this move similar to the lakers lucan move is for the next couple of years of step's run and it would it be the worst thing if they didn't go deep into the playoffs this season. What do you guys think? I mean, I've been the optimist on the Warriors and on the Butler trade from the beginning. So I'll just push all the chips in. They've only got two and a half games to make up to get to sixth, which is where the clippers are right now. I think they make it. I actually do think they make it.

There's going to be some bumps along the way here and everything else. Logan, you noted it. They've got the 19th toughest schedule. So the schedule's not that bad for them. Comingle will be back sometime soon, presumably. Steph looks refreshed. I think they've got a run in them. And again, it's only two and a half games to make up to get to six.

That does mean they have to leapfrog. Sacramento, not that big of a task. Dallas, again, I think they're going the other direction. Minnesota's gotten their stuff together recently. So that's another one. But those are the teams they got to leapfrog. But also the Clippers get up trouble. as well. The Clippers are, I think the Clippers are a better team than people realize.

Like, I do get that they, and they do match up really well with Golden State. Like, that'll, it'll, the reason why I think that they will be in the playing is because the Timberwolves and the Clippers are just so tough to leapfrog. Like I do get, they, they can't make up the games, but they, those two teams are really hard specifically in the Western Conference. Sure. Yeah. I'm in the middle of that.

I could, I was, my point would be like, I wouldn't be completely surprised. because I could see them moving up, but that would obviously, you know, factor in Minnesota struggling and the Clippers. But I do see them playing better than Dallas and Sack. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to get into six, but that could keep them even if they're playing good basketball because of those other two teams in the play in. So, yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of straddling the fence there with you guys. Look at us agree. All right, let's bring in Cliff here. Cliff, what do you think about the Dallas Mavericks' chance going into the playoffs? I mean, my man, AD went down.

Excuse me, my man, AD went down. It's a rap. They was looking good. I was watching the game. He was dominating, catching lives. He had to put back on, I think he banged on Shungoon in that game, too, as well. Was going right at Amen Thompson. He was looking good in the first couple minutes, and then it just all went down.

It was so fast. I mean, damn, like, to get injured that quickly and to have the, the backlash that the Mavericks have been facing with, you know, these weirdo fans bringing coffins in front of the arena and saying, we want Luca and wearing Luca jersey. Like, just, first of all, just stop that. That's creepy as hell. And second of all, like, Fady came back and they were actually, you know, somewhat healthy. I think they'll be fine.

I think they'd be above a playing team, but we'll see what's up with that. But you want to get to some Lback questions? Let's get it. All right. This is from Ryan S. Hi guys, much love from a true real ones OG listener. This is my first mailback submission, but I always have been a long time fan. Much love to Logan, Rajan Howard.

You all their best in the business. Anyway, much love and prayers to the great Popovich out there. Hope he gets better soon, but in his long, luscious coaching career, who in your opinion are your favorite and best coaches connected with through playing or beat writing for the teams? Thanks. Much love, Ryan. That's a good one.

So Ryan asked I want to hear Go ahead Roger He's asking who are Favorite coaches That we played for That are connected to Pop It's

Are your favorite Best coaches Connected with Through playing Or beat writing for the teams Oh he was just using Pop As a Yeah

Pop was just an example here Yeah I got it So he must be a Spurs fan I'm assuming Yeah I mean Sorry

Yeah Pop I mean Pop Even though I didn't get to play for pop pop pop is still one of my favorites um you know i always had a really good rapport with him and he always had kind words about me as a player and and having to kind of let me go and the tough decision that that was for them um when i was a young player and i always appreciated that i you know and i'd see him a lot because because our son's teams would play them in the playoffs um you know my my favorite two coaches

i think if you distill it down because i was i was blessed i always tell people you know my my track record Larry Brown was my first, well, Pop was my first coach, but Larry Brown was the first person I really played for, right? And then Don Nelson was the second coach I played for, and then I played for Jerry Sloan and Mike Dantone. And then from Mike DeAntony, you know, I was traded for by Larry Brown again. So I played for Larry Brown the second time. And then I was traded from Larry Brown by Don Nelson again. And then right after that, I was a free agent and got to play for Jerry Brown. Jerry Sloan again. So all I ever really knew, aside from the two coaches that I didn't really

love, they're well documented, were like Hall of Fame coaches. I was really blessed in that regard. My favorite two probably people, because I got to know them the best and whatever, were Mike D. Anthony and Jerry Sloan. And they were like polar opposites of each other, but like I respected them both a lot and, you know, I loved them both a lot. And so they were my two favorite. That's fascinating, Raj, because, and I was thinking about this as you were talking, Mike D'Antoni is the ultimate modern day players coach, easygoing, short practices, all that, and Jerry Sloan is the ultimate old school, hard ass. Like, you could not have had more polar opposites for your two, like, favorite guys. Like, I know. That's fascinating. But also just, like,

shows, like various approaches can work, you know, depending on situation. Yep. Yep. Love it. Oh, you want to go back? No, I mean, obviously I've talked to a lot of coaches in 28 seasons. But in terms of like beat writer, like day to day where I have to talk to the same coach every day. And more like the coach has to deal with me every fucking day for an entire season. Like, there have been some good ones? Like, Dale Harris was awesome because he was just like the nicest man you could possibly deal with on a day to day basis and was so explanatory.

sometimes to a fault because sometimes it was like, Adele, this is great, man, but I got to go write my story and you're still explaining the inner workings of the zone offense or something. He was great. Phil Jackson, obviously, I covered for five years. And Phil was great because Phil knew how to give you what you needed, whether it was the beatwriters, whether it was national people coming in, whoever it was, some random radio dude from two hours outside of L.A.

would show up and ask a question pregame. Phil Jackson always like he had an anecdote or some little nugget to give you like he was just great. He was fun to deal with. And yeah, there's all kinds of weird stuff that comes with Phil. But like he was, he was fun. Roger played for Dan Tony. I covered Dan Tony when he was coaching the Knicks. Mike was awesome.

Like it just, again, all-time great human being and was great with the media. Great just to even just shoot the shit with. You didn't have to talk basketball all the time. So those guys are up there. I'm probably forgetting some folks. Avery Johnson was a kick when he was coaching the Nets and I was covering them for a while. There been a lot, but that's the partial list.

First of all, I want to say Steve Kerr was the absolute that I've ever had. Put that on this. He smiled. Such a bad guy. He smiled. He would give great anecdotes. Just a terrible human being.

Just everyone liked him. What does he think he is? What does he think he is? He was terrible. Steve was Steve was good That was always just wild To cut your teeth

While a dynasty Is happening right Because everything is so competitive And everything matters And Having to be a beat writer When literally everything You were I mean Beck you knew this

When the Warriors were good Like every practice meant something Everything that came out of practice meant something And just to learn from Not just him was, but from everybody during that run was like, was very formative. Mike Brown, really good dude.

I think always was helpful. Always also just like had a good way about him was just always like kind of like smiling. Always just very optimistic. And, you know, especially when your team is losing, it's cool to have like somebody with some level of optimism because like it sucks. Like, it sucks when you're covering a losing team. Like, it's just, it's just, so when you have a good coach in that environment, it's good.

Dale Harris was really good. I actually, I talked to Dale Harris for a story I was doing on Nick Van Exel when I was interning. And I talked to him for an hour because, and I probably asked like three questions. And he was, this gave me everything. And, like, he was emotional about, like, he loved, he was talking about, like, how much he loved Van Exel. but like hated how it went down for him to leave. It was just like he was like he was re-living the whole Vennaxal situation in real time. But it was fascinating.

It was great. He was great. Fisdale, David Fisdell was really good to me when I was interned in Memphis. He was really good. Doc Rivers really like good. There's a reason why Doc keeps getting head coaching jobs because he's an incredible people person. everyone loves Doc. And so he's really good.

Yeah, that's the list that I have. Can I give what? Oh, one another one. One other one. Before you, Dale, how is impressive? Ron Adams. The ghost. Ron's the best.

Ron's the best. Ron. I think we were talking mostly ahead coaches, but yeah, Ron's like all-time great as an assistant. When you cover Dell, everybody on the beat does Del Harris impressions. So it's always like, well, everyone wants to blame the old coach. you know, everything was like, there was a lot of wow. You got that like that Indiana drawl, which was very, very charming, very endearing.

Except if you're a 19 year old Kobe, it wasn't that endearing now. Fair. Yeah. Or a 20-whatever-year-old Nick Van Exel at that time because those two did not connect. Quick, before we leave this question, this topic, quick, just thing on Pop real quick. Like, obviously, if you cover Pop near or fall. as a beat writer or national. Like there's a whole spectrum of stuff there because Pop can be really tough,

but he can also be amazing. And I just want to say, while we're all sending obviously well, wishes to him for a speedy recovery and hope he's back soon this season or maybe it'll be next season, I do hope we see him back. Among the things I'm missing right now personally are hearing Pop be the politically conscious individual that he is

and taking every opportunity to weigh in on the things that really matter in the world. and I feel like that voice is especially missed right now, to say the least. I wish we were hearing from him right now, given the state of things. Good point. I want to— Hold on. I want to say something to Howard's thing real quick, Howard, because you got me thinking about how opposite they were.

And I was giving a little thought, as you guys were giving your list, you know, both of those coaches, as much as they were just different human beings and ran different, you know, culturally ran different ships. There was very little like mental warfare with either one of them. There were there were very little like mind games being played when you went to work. It was pretty cut and dry. Like Mike, because he wanted everything to be so fresh for you mentally and confidence was his big deal that, that, you know, he very, he always wanted you to be free mentally, right? And Jerry, because like he just, hey way, you come to work, you foul his ass, get up, you play him tough as nails.

Like, you know, like that just was his style. and I think as great as as Larry Brown and Nellie were, for whatever reason in their situations, there was a lot going on with me mentally when I walked into the building. Like there was a lot of, there was a lot of shit that could be stirred up top. That, I mean, it doesn't mean that they're not great coaches,

but for me, that was, I felt that more in their buildings than I did in the other two. And that's, you know, that's just an interesting thing, right? Like, two completely, different dudes, but when you walk in their buildings, there was no mental, you know, kind of games being played. You didn't feel like there was any mental warfare. You were just there to kind of work and get the best out of it. Anyway, all right, y'all want to get to this last

one? Yes, sir. Before we get to the last one, no, fly, eagles, go birds. Come on. All right, you got these seven. Ah, come on, man. T-A-G-A-L-E-E-L-E-E-L-E-Eagles. Sorry, I'll fuck that out. But y'all can't say it. Y'all can't enunciate it better. All right. So hi, real ones. Longtime Lakers fan from Germany here. So also a long time reader of Howard and even longer time hater of Raja as that makes a player. You heard it here first.

Wimby is coming to save the All-Star game. That was already my gut feeling before he said he wasn't going there to make friends, but rather to see it as a business trip. Wembe was put on this earth to get people's shots out of there. And my guess is he won't stop doing that among all-stars. point players will hopefully not want to get embarrassed and up their effort level as well. So I fully trust Wemby as our basketball savior. And shout out to the poor traveling salesman Dennis Schrooter and all other Germans holding

down the NBA. All the best, Kai. So I did that in honor of all-star weekend coming up here as a, you know, we're going to make the pilgrimage to San Fran kick it for a little bit. So yeah, is Wembe going to save the all-sogne? No, fuck that. I hope so. This shit.

Fuck that. You nobody worried about no. Oh, let me just make this shit clear, right? to all you motherfuckers out there to harbor the same feelings as him. I hate you motherfuckers too. Believe that. Believe that.

Oh, God. Hey, my mother's a lot to hop on some kind of online platform talk about how I ain't shit and how they always hated me. And how, hey, guess what? I hate you too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Hey, remember that scene of baby boy? where Snoop kicks the kids' fort down. He said, I hate you. Well, fuck, I hate you, too. Rodger, we're going to have to have, like, security on stage. That went over Beck's head, by the way. That went completely over Beck's head.

Remember that scene in Baby Boy where he had him lined up and he had the belt and he spanked all of him? That's what the Eagles did to the Chiefs, yo. Beck, did you, do you remember that scene? Damn. Howard, you freeze? No, Howard, I'm good in the Bay, though. I'm good.

Howard, I'm good in the bay, man. Usually I'm good in the bay now. I'm worried you're going to go Vernon Maxwell on our audience as all. No, no, no, no. And honestly, maybe we should because, like, you know, you good money in the bay. They fuck with you in the bay, right?

I'm all right. I'm all right in the bay, but you're going to get a lot of, like, all-star weekend bring in the bag. You get a lot of people, bro. Like, so you're going to get a lot of Southern Cal up there. And honestly, I mean, I mean, you guys don't,

the amount of people to say that they would, like, beat my ass and, like, they would fuck me up on site. Like, it's some, wild shit though like it's really but then they see your tall six seven ass and be like oh i was just playing but like what i mean clearly this it's it's such a weird i mean look man yeah i had a moment um or a few moments with coby but even he and i became cool like you do you know what i mean like it's just a fascinating thing bro and then that does happen logan i've told my story before about being at the Laker game.

Have I told this story about like I watched when I got suspended for that like I had to watch it with my with my with my with my with my PR Ashley Smith my PR rep in at a bar in LA and there was a dude at the bar oh he was MFing me the whole game he ain't shit like like just you know calling me all out my name and all of that and we went into the bathroom half time right urinal two two people down he don't even see me so he's He goes to wash his hands and I pull up after and I'm waiting to wash the hands. And that motherfucker looked at me in the mirror

and he looked like he saw a fucking ghost. Like, and I'm waiting like, where's the energy my boy? Like I'm, hey, what's up? My man didn't say a word slinked out and went back and sat in his seat. And it's always like the same shit. And it's wild. Like you begin to work-dust.

The amount of anecdotes that I've gotten in the wild about Roger Bell is insane. That Roger will fuck you up is insane. I've gotten it or like Roger was wild and Roger was doing this. I've told you some of these stories off there.

Back then. Back then. I don't live that. I don't live that life now. Back then. Back then. Yeah. But if somebody try you,

oh, yeah, show up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yo, I don't really want no smoke, bro. Hey, these youngs are, these youngers are, like, all jokes aside. These youngs are, right? These Y-Ns ain't trying playing around, dog. These Y-Ns ain't playing around.

I do not live down. And even wearing the chises and all that, so you don't got no identity? No, sir. I got kids. I'm good. Yeah. Wow. That's a good time to say that this show, the real ones live show, is officially showed out.

Ah, I will see you guys the puns line on Saturday. Roger getting this big boy Jordan ones on. You know what I'm saying? Lock in. Man, I don't know. I'm Mike. I'm like, who knows? Who knows, right?

Who knows? Who knows? We have a cliff in the building. We've got to have Beck in the motherfucking field. It's going to be lit, dog. Make sure y'all get there early. Also, it's Lunar New Year. So it's going to be, I think, like, 1.5 million people down to tell SF.

So make sure you all get there early. Make sure you get there early. Roger, you get there early, chap. It's going to be a movie. I'm going to be trying to avoid you. It's going to be popping in the city. It's going to be popping in the city. Anyways, we'll see you guys.

No Friday. show because we go see y'all on Saturday in the flesh. I see y'all at the punchline. Motherfuckus. All right. That was been another edition of real ones. We have Joel Anderson and Brian Curtis next. You know this was a great episode because we got Roger here for an hour and 18 minutes.

It's crazy. Anyway, see you guys Saturday. Hell of Juice. All the shits. Let's do it as a team, guys. One, two, three. Bye. Bye.

And we are back. I am really, really excited for this, ladies and gentlemen. And we have the J-School Avengers of sports media. Brian Curtis and Joel Anderson. How are you fellows doing? I'm just flattered to be here, man, you know? I mean, this is the spot for superstars, bro. You know, so I'm just, I feel like we've, at least me, I don't, I can't speak for Brian.

I feel like I finally arrived at the ringer, you know? Oh, my God, me too. Especially, when you say Avengers, I mean, our superpowers. are like finding funny headlines. Stop being modest, guys. Stop being modest. I feel like this is the thing that other podcasters do when they go on other people's podcasts

is to butter them up. Stop it, guys. Although I appreciate it because you guys, I'm big fans of you guys. I wanted to talk about, we're going in the All-Star weekend. And I felt like this is a good time to just do a state of the NBA media

and state of NBA ratings and the future of all things NBA from a media standpoint. And I feel like you guys are the perfect people. So I have a, this is how serious I was, guys. I had a list of questions for each of you guys. We could just go. We could just talk.

We could talk for how as long as we want to talk how little we want to talk. I said this prepod, like this could be a two-hour discussion. But the first question I wanted to, I think I'll throw this to Brian really quickly. Because, you know, I feel like this season, and I don't feel like I've ever seen ratings be this much of a talking point within a league to where it cannibalizes any other talking point about the future of the league as the NBA this season. I don't even feel like we talk about that as a storyline with any other league. I mean, we talk about all the time as journalists, but I feel like the greater consciousness and the greater people and the greater fan base

tend to talk about the ratings this season when it comes to the NBA. Like, where are we with the the ratings discussion in the NBA. And what do you think is the biggest misconception that we have this season about NBA-specific rating? Well, I think the biggest one is that when we talk about numbers, the number that matters is the one that Adam Silver got from three different media entities last summer, which is $7 billion a year. And if I'm him, every time someone brings up a rating to me, I'm just pointed the sign,

$7 billion a year. Seven billion, here we go, seven billion, we got this. So, I mean, that to me is number one because ratings concerns aren't nothing, but you just got money that you only get from having a product that people want and people want to buy. And that's everything from the networks to Amazon. So that's where I'd start. You think, Joe? Yeah, I was going to say, and also, ratings matter less now that at any point in league or TV

history, right? to Brian's point it's not only the money you get but Adam Silver talked about this in December. Attendance is up as high as it's ever been engagement on social media. These are all different sorts of metrics that we

use to measure the popularity of a thing now. Like it's very rare that people are sitting around in other fields or other ways talking about TV ratings because that's just not the way people are hoping to engage with audiences anymore. And so I

think one reason to people get so fixated on this is that it's it it's confirmation bias if you ignore the context you every every every non-neple sport in this country is enduring ratings decline right so if you but if but if but if you can ignore all that and you just want to focus on whatever you think wokeness is around the league or something like that like you can use the ratings to sort of get at that like if you're mad at the league for you know once having, you know, jerseys that echoed social justice messaging on it, you can still sort of get at them by that

by talking about, see, you ran off your fans. And so I think that's what it allowed is. This is sort of laceness. You don't have to talk about the league if you talk about rating, too. I think that's the other thing, too. So, yeah, there's just a lot of reasons

that people fixate on this. But it all goes back to some of the same old concerns and the same old concern trolling. So why didn't, when I, you brought up a, an interesting point. And what people talk about, at least the consumers talk about, which is wokeness killed the ratings of the NBA.

And I think that's a little bit misguided considering the fact, yeah, the NBA was the first to put Black Lives Matter on the court, yes, but they were also the first ones to take it away, right? And also the other leagues also put Black Lives Matter and end racism and all these things. I mean, the NFL just took it down for the Super Bowl. why do you think the NBA has this misconception of being this woke league when they have done everything opposite of what has been said that they are doing? Why are you doing it, man?

We're here to answer this question. Why are you forced to be to answer it? You know why. Okay. It's because the players are mostly black. And I mean, we see that it's a lot of euphemisms around wholeness, DEI. Like when people are saying something and they really mean something else, it's because the majority. of the players in this League of Black. Now, what I would push back on and say is that what

have they actually said? Like, this was a very, this was a highly charged political year. And where was the NBA? Like, where were the NBA superstars in the middle of that? Like, I don't remember them taking a, like, they were at the forefront of any of the messaging on. Yeah, we had Beaumonti Jones on like a couple, a couple months ago, a couple weeks ago, excuse me. And that was one of the things that we brought up, right? Like, none of the, like, big time players endorsed a candidate except for LeBron, which was in the days leading up. Steph did, I'm going to say, Steph did, he talked at the DNC and so to Steve Kerr. But like there was no Jalen Brown statement, right, which would, which would you would normally

expect, right? There was no. Kyrie was quiet. Kyrie was quiet. And I didn't, for a long time, because it was funny, I was at, I was at Team USA over the summer and Kamala came to a practice. And I was really surprised that. that Steph kind of took the baton and like talking to Kamala engaging with her on the floor.

And LeBron kind of took a step back into the background. I was like, oh, this could be nothing, but it could be everything, right? Yeah. And I was really surprised that it took him that long. And I wouldn't have been surprised if he didn't endorse a candidate this election cycle, to be honest with you. It's been, what do you think about like the player advocacy during this time where it seems to be a lot different? We'll get back on track. But that is an important note for anyone that talks about.

oh, the NBA and their players are way too woke? Well, I mean, because we're still talking about wokeness. This is a conversation from years ago, and it is still sort of dominated the conversation when we're talking about ratings or why the league isn't meeting whatever rating metrics that they think that they should be meeting. And so they heard that.

They've heard a lot of people criticize them and put them at the forefront. And also, to be frank, like a lot of other rich people, they probably was scared. You know, they knew that there was a lot on the line going into this election. And it does no need, if there's a 50-50 shot, you know, your preferred candidate winning or losing, and you have a lot to protect. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to get out there in front of people if you're not especially passionate,

if you're not especially a politically engaged player. And we don't seem to have that. I mean, you're in the locker room with Dremont. Dremont isn't it? Outspoken brother, man. What did he say going into this? It wasn't, I believe he ended up supporting Kamala, but it wasn't like a forceful endorsement, right? It wasn't like they weren't on the campaign.

Traubrong wasn't on the campaign trial. I just put up an Instagram post, right? It wasn't like a big, a big thing, like how it wasn't 2020, for instance, right? Or not even just 2020 election, but also the midterms, right? LeBron did a video statement for Raphael Warnock way back in the day, right? Like, it wasn't, it wasn't that way. Don't forget that. That was one of my LeBron highlights. Yeah. Yeah. In Texas, yep.

Nobody was as loud as Harrison Butker in the NBA this year. Right. Right. And there's a reason for that. I think there's a reason. I think they're scared and I think they heard the criticisms and they're just like, you know what? They can do their side projects, their philanthropy, their, you know, social messaging and their little smaller networks or whatever. But in terms of asking for a bigger, broader statement for, front of the league, they probably thought, probably not worth it. Yeah. Let's get back on to the TV side of it. I got a question for you, Brian. You talked about the new TV deal. You're bringing NBC and Amazon into the fold, right? And inside the NBA is going to be an ESPN entity, excuse me, which is going to be fascinating, considering, I mean, you guys talk about ESPN all the time, just about their standards. And then you're going to bring in, potentially Charles Markley and everything that that is inside the NBA has to

has to bring which I love but I don't know if Disney necessarily loves everything that is going to come out of that but I'll save the inside the NBA question but when these two entities coming in into the mix do you think that will help or hurt the NBA's product because like as a consumer I'm a I am a journalist in this space a reporter in this space and I'm also a fan of this space, right? And as a consumer, it seems like we have now brought the conversation that should be on on television traditionally, onto social media,

and you see that specifically with ESPN, where it seems like you're just bringing Twitter to television, and I don't know if that necessarily makes great television. But you have NBC, which we saw during the Olympics, their storytelling apparatus, right? And you see Amazon who wants to put a foothold into sports in general. What do you think

these two new entities are going to look like in the fold of the NBA media sphere? It's a really good question. I think a couple of things. I mean, one is whenever you bring in two new partners like that, they become giant advertisers of the NBA because they just spend all this money.

So of course, they want people to actually watch NBA games or engage with them in some non-watching way. But I think when mostly when we talk about NBC and Amazon, they want you to watch the games. That's, they don't care about Twitter engagement.

They want you to actually go on to their streaming services or on NBC's case onto their channel and watch the games. The storytelling is fascinating because I do think at times on ESPN, just because of the way debate has become the signature, what do you want to call it, key of that network? of it's become almost like, and because look, Stephen A is on their pregame show. So it's like, this is the way we talk about the NBA. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think Stephen A probably generates lots of interest in the NBA, but there's also other ways to do it, right? There's old school NBA on NBC in the 90s. Here's Hannah Storm sitting down with Charles Barkley to talk about his recent controversy. Here's some, you know, glossy player profiles. So I just think bringing those other things in and then Amazon's totally different. Amazon, hey, I'm going on to buy razor blades. And there is a little ad for the Pelicans game tonight that folks, I didn't know what was on.

Because I'm not a basketball right at the ringer, I might not have known that was a thing tonight at all. And now I can get on there and watch it. And it's another portal for me to watch NBA stuff. Well, the one thing that I saw Brian over the summer, because I think that was a preview. The Olympics was definitely a preview of what's to come from NBC, you know? We'll look at to Amazon in a second. I mean, I don't think there's much to talk about Amazon other than like they're literally using the NBA and the NFL is a vessel to sell you every right.

Like they're not really tripping off a pre and post. So I think that that's just, they're here to sell you stuff. But for NBC, like, I saw what can be done when you have storytelling involved. You have Mike Tariko just with the with the Eiffel Tower in the background. just giving you a whole bunch of great propaganda about the game, right? I feel like that's something that we're missing from an NBA only standpoint, right? I feel like, and I've said this and I've lamented this when I first got back to real ones in January, which is, I think NBA is more interested in the bullshit than actual

the game, right? And I feel like there was a time when I was growing up, I'm sure when Joel was growing up, when you were growing up, that we actually put the onus on how great the game, right? and what was going on with the game. It's the NBA Finals, and we're over here talking about a coaching hire. Why is that the lead? I'm talking about in June. Why is that the lead discussion planning of an NBA Finals game?

And I felt like we got a lot of that over the last 10 years. And I feel like at least maybe this is just old school with me. I feel like NBC is going to bring that back in a more positive way. And I think that can grow the game a lot more than where we're currently at, which is, oh, this person is going to get traded in two weeks, right? Or this, like the conversation isn't on the game. It's always on the background game. And I don't feel like we lost that balance.

I completely agree. And we're saying this right after the Luca trade. You know, what's going to be the most memorable NBA moment of the last 12 months? It's going to be the Celtics winning the title or is going to be Luca being traded in the middle of the night? It's an interesting question, you know, the answer's not obvious to that question. I agree with you. I think we've come to this strange place with transactions. It's every sport.

Like Super Bowl pregame shows on Sunday, they were talking about, you know, where's what's Aaron Rogers going to do next year. It's not unknown in other sports, but in the NBA, it's sort of overwhelmed actual basketball to a point. Even really interesting actual basketball. And I don't, I'm with you. I'm old school on that where I'm like, can't we do this but also spend tons of time on the actual product?

I don't know how we go back from that because we've seen all the financial incentives being into transactional. But isn't that every sport in sort of now, like our beloved college football, Brian, the transfer portal, you know, the offseason machinations of these teams, oh, man, they signed Will Howard. Oh, no, UT got University of Houston's three best players, you know, things like that. And I think that, like, that's just a part of how it works because the Olympics is I think fundamentally different because those aren't sports fans that they're getting with the

Olympics, right? Like, it's people that are watching TV and want to see good stories. And it's not people that typically watch figure skating, you know, throughout the year. They want to see a good story. They want to see the sweeping vistas of the Olympic host site. But people with the NBA, like, presumably by the time we come to the game, a lot of us already know that stuff because storytelling is already so fractured. The players are telling their own stories. The team are telling their own stories. There's all these other things, right? And so that makes it, that makes it sort of tough for other things to, to break through. And so we sort of resort to the transactional stuff or the drama stuff. And I would say, but not for nothing. In my youth,

there weren't avenues for that sort of stuff. It's not like Ahmad Rashad Willow Bay were giving us that dirt on NB, on inside stuff. But, but, but I read Jordan Rules. And Jordan Rules was a sensation because it did not just talk about what was happening on the court. It was like, hey, man, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, don't fuck with MJ. You know, it was like that kind of stuff that was in the background. And that book was really popular. So I think that, like, there's an availability of that information that didn't used to be there. And there's so many other avenues to tell that stuff. But, you know, like, I'm sure that NBC will adjust and they'll try to figure out, like, the right balance of things, I imagine. Yeah, I think the problem also is, like,

when you're comparing basketball to football, basketball doesn't necessarily have just the time slots that an NFL or a college has, right? Like college has, you know, you wake up at 6 a.m. on the, on the, on the West Coast, and it is college game day for four hours, you know? Right. Like, or even, same on Sunday with NFL countdown.

Like, there's, there is enough time to build up this anticipation, right? Like on NBA countdown on ESPN is like 25 minutes, right? or it's not, you can't even, we've, we've all done some form of television. Like, we're all in podcasting for a reason. We've all done some form of television, right? You have two seconds to, like, formulate a thought and then that's it, right? Especially on a 30-minute show. I do wonder, like, I think, but I do want to pose this question to the room.

I do, before I answer this question, I want to ask this question. I won't answer it by myself. I think NBC is in poll position to be like the number one version of, or the number one crew in five years because they have the storytelling element. But they also have the opportunity to have like an hour pregame show. We're like, I can get to know these guys. Like, I don't really know. My favorite player to watch now is Anthony Edwards.

I don't really know anything about him, right? Like I can read him in the athletic, but like from something, like, I don't have a sit down like moment where I like know I know him, right? And I think NBC has a great opportunity to do that. But who do you think, Brian? And I know I just kind of led you on with this question. But who do you believe is in pole position, like say in five years to like be the one and actually be able to take the grips of the finals or being poised as to take the grips

of the finals from ESPN? Well, you and I, when three of us, you know, are print people. So when we think of storytelling, we think of a big feature article or maybe a big sit-down interview in a pre-game show. But storytelling to me, you mentioned Toriko. It's done during a game as well. Yeah. It's the ability to call a game and also tell a story about anybody at the same time.

And you do that through words. You do that through doing your research on the front end. You also do that through visuals, right? You do that through closeups. Get in on tight on him as you tell this story over four quarters. Like there are ways to do that. One of my complaints about ESPN, it's just totally, maybe this is just me being on the media podcast and, you know, making Joel bored with these takes every week. It's like, I look at their production.

I'm like, hey, I'm watching the NBA Finals. I love a lot of what ESPN does, and I love Mike Breen, certainly. But everything about their storytelling apparatus and about the broadcast feels antiquated to me. You know, we're going to Mr. Big Stuff when we're going to a commercial during the NBA finals. And I'm like, that song's cool, but why the hell are we talking about this right now? Why are we showing pictures of Will Chamberlain as we, you know, black and white photos during the NBA finals has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

about right now. That's cool. I love history too. But again, it's subtle things, this television in a way to me that's beyond just the big sit down. It's beyond the feature story. There's no Bob Kostas just sitting on a perch just like, this is why this game is important. I think I'm going to tell you why this game is important. I mean, Joel says we know all this stuff, but are we sure everybody knows all this stuff? I don't think we know this stuff, Joel. Well, I mean, we as a collective. Me, all three of us know it, but I don't think we as it because the NFL does a, we go to six different sideline reporters before a regular season game. That's the big game in a week.

I mean, I think that NBA fans are more engaged with NBA stuff than casual fans, right? But you guys are right that, yeah, we maybe not. But I guess what I would say here then is that, man, and I think the deal that the NBA got shows this, we all sort of over-exaggerate the importance of any individual regular season game. They're paying, those people are paying for the playoffs in the NBA finals, right? Like, that's what the, is that though, right? Like, we, is that the, is that our fault as consumers or is it the league's fault for telling us that it didn't matter while also speaking out of both sides of their mouth is saying, oh, wait, actually, it does matter because the

fans are mad that they can't watch their favorite player playing Portland on the second night of it back to back. Yeah. I mean, it's just, that's a, I think it's, everybody is to blame if there's such a thing as blame. But I mean, I guess what I would say is that I don't remember from my youth every individual game matter. Like sometimes I'd look up, oh man, Rockets played the bucks last night. Okay. I read, you know, I got it. And so, you know, I feel like a lot for a lot of us, like this is sort of like romanticizing like what the 80s and 90s were because I, I swear there were not a lot of people watching the Vancouver Grizzlies play against the Also, people talking about how they hate shooting threes. How they hate shooting threes.

how they hate team shooting threes. When Steph first came on the scene, everybody was like, yo, this is dope. We ain't got to watch people. We don't got to watch the paint being packed in by six dudes. Like, it's great. When I was at Slate,

we worked on a podcast that was sort of a follow-up to the last dance. It was called The Last Last Dance, and it was about MJ's years with the Wizard. That was a great pod. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

It had a lot of fun. I'm proud of it. And I had to go looking at clips from the early arts. Bro. Pacer. versus the Pistons or the, you know, the Wizards versus the Cavs in 2002.

Come on, man. No, but you look at the last dance and it's 82 to like 87 with 45 seconds to go. And that was like a high score game. Like there were a lot of games. It was like in a 67, 68, three minutes to go on the fourth quarter. Like, I mean, yeah, say anyway.

I want to stay on ESPN really quickly because I think they're in a fascinating position because I think a lot of this has to do with, and I know you guys talk about a lot about ESPN and fascinating. Y'all be going in. It's great. But ESPN isn't a great,

and is in an interesting position because it treats MBA like a third-class citizen. Like, it's like, we got it because, like, we can have it, right? They don't really put any resources into it. They don't really care you X anybody on ESPN who works at ESPN. They're like, yeah, I mean, it's not big game, right? It's something for ESPN to say, like, hey, we have, we can build up the subscriber fee and hit you over the head over it, right? But you would think if they don't care that they wouldn't go out and make a move like getting inside the NBA and licensing it, right?

Like that shows me like, oh, they're locked in. They don't like what their product is right now with the countdown, right? And I think a lot of people have said, like, oh, we don't like this countdown product. We're just going to watch the game. ESPN was like, no, we're going to try to, we're going to get the best. in studio team there is, and we're going to license it. Now, we'll talk about Charles Barkley in a second, but we're going to do this. What do you guys both have ESPN ties?

I just know people that go to that work there. What do you, where is ESPN in all of this? And do they have like a puncher, obviously, they have more than a puncher stance, but do they have a stake in this? Are they going to, are you think they're going to go all out for NBA? Or is it going to continue being like, oh, this is just one of our many entities. that we have and college football is better NFL's better. We're going to put resources to that

but we're just going to tell people that we have the NBA. It's just a vanity. I would love to see the tab for what they're paying for inside the NBA because we know Charles probably just got a race since he did that whole I'm not sure I'm going over there to you. I'm not sure. Phenomenal negotiating

tactics from our guy Chuck. Unbelievable. He is the absolute best at that. So that's pretty amazing. You know, I mean, let's talk about inside the NBA for a second. As you said, they went out and got the best studio show. This has been an ESPN tactic lately. Who are the best announcers? Joe Buck and Troy Heyman, great. Let's go buy them from Fox. Who's got the biggest podcast? Pat McAfee, great. We're going to buy that, put that on the air.

I think what's interesting about it is then how that fits into ESPN culture, which is something you teased earlier. I remember when the whole Darrell Mori thing went down a couple years ago, the inside cast happened to be out here a couple days later. And I was asking, I think it was Ernie, I said, hey, you know, you had a complicated discussion. Like, right? Like, this is, this is something that is, everybody is, is handling like, you know, nuclear material. Did you guys have a show meeting beforehand to just kind of suss out what you're going to say?

He's like, no. We just went on there and let. But quick aside, cook aside. I think I think I've, I think I've soft launched this a lot. But I used to intern at Turner back in the day. And so I for summer 2016. and I remember like them like giving us a tour and then telling us this is the TV where Charles watches scandal during NBA during NBA nights.

I believe. And this is where Sedges says does this. And this is where Ernie actually does the work to make sure this is a great show. Yeah, man. I mean, I think the thing is is that we we don't tune into inside the NBA. And I'm not going to go there just yet. but we don't tune in because of the basketball analysis. We tune in because of the relationships

and how entertaining they are. And I think that, you know, if you're counting on ESPN buying them to do the sort of storytelling that we were talking about previously, then we're probably going to all be disappointed. But if you just want to create a fun vibe around the game, right, and make it seem like a little bit of an event, then I think that this is moving in the right direction.

And I also would just say, like, I mean, you mentioned, what ESPN's doing. I think they're still sort of reeling from the, I hate to bring this up, because it's not comfortable, the Rachel Nichols, Maria Taylor stuff. Like, I don't, I think that, like, they may have thought they had a plan for what NBA countdown and all that other stuff was going to be. And it's just kind of, you know, it was so hastily done, right? They're still figuring out, yeah. And I think people also got to remember the context of the times we were in at that point. Like, it wasn't like just as a cut and dry thing. There was a, in the,

In the aftermath of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, it was just, it was a different type of ecosystem that you can't really explain in hindsight. You know what I mean? It was one of those types. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, and I mean, and to be fair, I feel like ESPN's NBA coverage has been, they've been tinkering with it and people have been complaining about it for a long time. Like just, you know, with magic being involved, our boss being involved, you know, like people who have always had their critiques about the stuff and how. it could be better. And I don't think that's going to change. Even if ESPN did better and put more

resources into it and moved NBA to the forefront, I still think that is going to be a part of the story. But when you bring in inside the NBA, you're at least saying, well, we want to make this an event, though. Like, we want to, we want to make this a fun experience for people. And that might be the thing that has been missing over these years at least. Brian, do you think that, let's go to the Chuck part of this, because this is very important, obviously, right? Because if Chuck doesn't go to ESPN, they have, ESPN still has a problem.

What do you think he, what do you think that he is going to ultimately decide? Because I ultimately think he's going to, he's going to get a massive deal and a president of deal with ESPN, and they're not going to make him do anything but inside. Like, and it's going to be genius. And we're all going to be applauding him for winning again.

I'm sorry. I misunderstood because I thought he was retiring several times over the last two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was walking away from television forever, and he would entertain no thoughts of a lucrative new contract with ESPN or anybody else. My favorite part of that is when he told, I think it was Andrew Merchant, he told him straight up. Yeah, I make $10 million. And this is what I make sense. It says how much I make.

And they tried to match and did it. This happened. That was my favorite part of the whole thing. It's him just saying his salary and not give it. It's unbelievable. But here's what's going to happen. So I have a slightly different take than you do. I think he's going to get a gigantic deal.

probably going to start with a two. He's going to have the deal only be to do inside the NBA once a week, just like his current gig. But he will also answer every phone call like he does now. So when Scott Van Pelt calls for the pod, when Stephen A, we just absolutely need you to wake up early in Phoenix this morning. I mean, is there any doubt that Charles Barkley will be on those things? I mean, like the funniest thing he said during this fake retirement tour over the last year is, not doing any more interviews. I was like, okay. But it's going to be him that does it. I've tried to get Charles Barkley on real ones. It's so hard. It's very hard to get him because

he doesn't go through Turner PR. It's like it's he got to like you. And you just call him up, straight up. But look at Joe and Troy. Like how much like are they friendly to the rest of ESPN universe? You know, they're on Sports Center after a Monday night game with Scott Van Pelt doing things. I'm sure they're on call, you know, to come do something. But really, they're doing football and then they're going home. They're not sitting there being like, oh, we need you for get up on Tuesday. That's not happening. Barkley is like, fuck you on the golf course, bye.

I mean, Barclay is already said, man, they're not going to, I mean, he has said this on camera, they're not going to have me over ESP and it work me like they do everybody else. You know what I mean? He's made that clear. So, yeah, like, he's, he'll be available and he'll be a friendly voice from time to time, but they are not, I don't think we'll have to. count on him being on TV as much as Stephen A, for instance.

Question for you guys. What have you guys thought about the Adam Silver and the Adam Silver in all of this, right? Because in the last few years, I feel like there was just an outright just push to do the most gimmicky stuff possible to sell the league to the highest bidder in a way that I don't think needed to be happened, needed to happen, right? You have the in-season tournament, which I think they have, it has been a don't. debacle over the last two years. I think we can say that. If after your second year, you're already talking about moving, you're moving the whole city. I think you have a problem. What do you think

the future, has there the experimentation of the game gone too far? I'll start with Brian and I want to hear Joel's opinion as well. Just from a consumer standpoint and watching it, and you can even throw some anecdotal evidence into that. What have you thought about the gimmickiness of the last few years from the NBA when it seems like they don't actually have to do that? I mean, I think it's very gimmicky from the end season tournament to the playing game, which is reintroduce some all-time terrible teams to the postseason. Do I think it's much more gimmicky than the NFL having Black Friday football and having Christmas Day football on a Wednesday?

No. I mean, that's kind of what. I think also because I think the other thing is it comes from a place of weakness from the NBA. Like the NFL's coming to mash on motherfuckers. They're like, yeah, we're going to, we're going to, you think you like Christmas? Have you seen Beyonce? She's going to perform. That's true.

No, that's a good point. There is a little bit of a flailing quality to it. Like, yeah, we got this new thing. The 10 seed in each conference, they're going to get the postseason two. Yeah, it is. But I just think that's the way of the world now, right? You create things, gimmicks to use your word. I think that's exactly the right word because you think you can sell them.

You think you can slice off a different little piece and sell it to somebody else or create a thing that people are interested. You don't like the plan. You guys don't like to play in personally. I do not like the end season tournament. I think it adds an unnecessary game and unnecessary bit of travel in a time when consumers aren't necessarily watching NBA anyway. You know, like the opening night is actually Christmas Day.

Like, that's what it is. Like, invest in that. Right. I tried to pretend that I was going to care about the end season tournament. And I just, it didn't hold this year. And then... And one other thing, you're also like, you're also betting that your stars are going to make it every year to that. Like, they were fortunate.

to get LeBron and Gannis the first time and get the Lakers there. But, like, that's not a given every single time. Well, I mean, this year, after they won it, they said, let's not celebrate because we found out that this doesn't matter, right? And so I was like, I kind of felt like when that happened, I was like, oh, okay, like, even the messaging among the teams, the team that literally won the end-season tournament was like, yeah, like, we're not going to make a big deal out of this because we know that it ultimately doesn't matter.

And I don't know if that's their fault, the NBA's fault, or if it's the fan's fault, because we've all said that the only thing that matters is the postseason. Like we all have sort of moved in that direction with the game. And so it's just kind of hard to, you know, to get that back. It's like what I'm dealing with with a, like I love women's sports, right? But it's what I'm dealing with, like, the conundrum I'm having with unrivaled, right? Like, why should I care about this championship if y'all don't care about this championship, right? Like, it's cool to have Sabrina and Satu on the same team.

But like, y'all dipping in and out and, like, you guys. aren't really caring about this trophy. And I feel like the same thing about the NBA in this instance. Like, it's a free trip to Vegas, but like, ain't nobody tripping off of this? Like, it's not. It's hard to make people care about sports, man. You know what I mean? It's the same reason spring football leagues, they keep trying.

And every the first week, they'll be like, oh, man, there's surprisingly good ratings for the AFL and the USFL. And then by week two, people are like, I don't know who the fuck the Houston renegades are. You know what I mean? It has to be, like, in sports, it has to be. You have to turn it into an institution. And the hard part about turning something to institution is it takes time and you're going to lose a lot of money, but you've got to do it through decades.

And I just, and I don't. That's the argument on behalf of the end season tournament, right? Like 10 years from now, that it's going to look and feel a lot different than it does now, we're going to go through this slow buildup where people are like, man, I don't even want to watch that shit. Yonis don't even care, you know? Yeah. Maybe we will get there.

Can I push back on the idea real quick that we have to, care about things. Second biggest story in America last year other than the election was Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul, which is the most meaningless thing I've ever seen in my life. Everybody tuned in for that. Like that was a, the most gimmicky, ridiculous thing ever. It was gimmicky, but people thought that it mattered, though. People really wanted to see if Mike Tyson could fight. And people were like, oh, man, Jake Paul ain't going to be a take no punch from Mike Tyson. They wanted to see Jake Paul get his ass kick, too. That was like a thing. They were, they were excited. And by the way, but that's a difference of the because that's a

one-time thing. That's not an institution is what's what's what. the NBA is trying to build year in and year out. I love that you guys are for the play-in, by the way, the 36 and 46 Atlanta Hawks who got into play in last year. Thank goodness we recognize their achievement. The 39 and 43 Chicago Bulls, who will ever forget those great franchises? I'm so glad. You know, even Mike Dorico to do some storytelling about them.

That would be fantastic. My thing with this is that I'm really just, my thing with this is, right, and I think there's a perception thing that I think all this in this whole conversation is the NBA just has a perception problem. Shit isn't going bad for the NBA. We just think it is, right? Like, for instance, I was talking to, I was talking to Howard Beck today, actually, we're preparing for the show tomorrow, who we're actually recording this on a Monday, not a Tuesday. I was talking to Howard Beck about Adam Silver talking about the 10-minute quarters, right? And to be fair to Adam Silver, it was just a question of what's the wackiest idea you guys have thought of, right?

But it's, it, the perception of Adam Silver would do such a thing just caused a new cycle that was so unnecessary for the NBA, right? And I feel like they perpetually in bad news cycle. They're like the Democrats, right? They're just perpetually just in bad, bad news cycle. That might be unfair to the NBA, but please. Why do you think, is from a perception standpoint, do you think the bad headlines when it comes to ratings or or anything and beyond, that the NBA can lose traction in terms of the America's social consciousness,

because they're number two right now in terms of sports. I think they're unequivocally there. But you got college football coming on their heels. You've got MLB coming on their heels. You have a lot of different types of the W is gaining traction. Same with college women's basketball. Do you think that the NBA has a, is a slippery slope there where they can slip from number two in our American consciousness? I mean, I think that's certainly possible. But I think, you know, the thing about Adam Silver is kind of connected back to your previous question. The thing about Adam Silver that is amazing is that we can say all this. The league is struggling. It's in a bad news cycle. And people pony it up. They paid triple what their TV deal was the last time. The NFL didn't even triple

their media rights deal the last time. Like, they doubled it. And I bet the NFL is like, man, what the hell that Adam Silver? You know, we could have got, are you saying triple was out? You know they dirty Mac and on Adam Silver right now. You know they hate it on it. What's up, bro? What's up?

What's your dude? CBS, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, obviously, like the people that are putting money into this stuff,

they see something or they see either these negative headlines are valuable or they see past them. And they say the fundamentals are fine. Like the NBA has a rabid. engaged, dedicated fan base. And it doesn't matter that the casuals are not always tuning in. These people are going to show up and they're going to pay for games. They're going to buy jerseys. They're going to do that stuff. They're a motivated group of consumers. And so I think that's like above everything, if you're thinking about Amazon Silver that way. And I mean, it's not my job to care

about how much money he gets for the league. But if you're going, that's how he's judged in his world. And it seems like by that metric, he's a success. And so is the league. that. Brian, it feels like 1999, 2000, all over again. It just feels like we're in a transition, right?

Like, we're just in the next, like, we're in the, whatever our version of the post-Jordan era is, right? Where it was like, we're just finding a star. Also, there was a transition in media rights deals around that time,

right, in 2003, when ESPN got the rights. But I got to, I want to pose a question to end on this. And for each of you, and I want to you to answer you, what? What can the end?

NBA do to dominate the next era of streaming that we're about to get into? And what can they do to fuck it up? I'm so glad you brought the, um, brought up the whole 99 thing because whenever I hear the NBA ratings talk, I'm always like, and I see the list of reasons that people are throwing out there, including like LeBron and stuff for getting old, where's our next star? You know, when's our next star? I'm always like, what, what do you want the NBA to do? Yeah. You know, or you want the NBA to be like going to AAU leagues and be like, hey guys, we need the next MJ or LeBron. I know they're not making their way to the NBA. Like that's happening anyway.

Like there's nothing. That doesn't make any sense to me. Like what, what would, what would like, what are they going to do? Like they're going to, they have the basketball players they're given and we have amazing basketball players right now. So to answer your question, what can they do? Um, I think the question and Joel hit on this earlier is figure out a way to make basketball games that are currently skipped by a huge portion of the population into events. Find a way to do that.

And they may be many events. They're not going to be Chiefs Bills on Sunday afternoon. That's not what you're going for. But figure out a way to make those into things. You know, now you have to cope through a lot to do that, right? Load management. You saw the ESPN picked the Lakers game this weekend and neither Luca or LeBron played.

Like, God, what a dog. that must have been. I didn't watch. Or you guys talk about it, having Hughie Brown like the celebration of the game on fucking Super Bowl Sunday? What are we doing? That was so sad. Yeah, man. That was sad. That was absolutely wow. What can they do to screw it up? I think I would say let transactions gobble the play on the court. I would say there's a lot there's a lot of interest to be gotten from transactions. And by the way, we didn't mention

this earlier, but part of the reason transactions are so powerful because the biggest stars in the NBA changed teams a lot in the last year, few years. years, right? Luca Donchich just got traded. LeBron's, LeBron, AD, we can... By the way, I just want to say sorry to all your friends in Dallas, Brian. I mean, Joel is Crip walking on the grave right now. You should have seen the smile he had on the pot the next day. I just can't believe we all did it. Thank you. For like all that Adam Silver says about the, to use the E word one more time, engagement,

you find a way to drive people to actual basketball. Because one, that's how networks make money. That's how your partners are going to make money. But two, that's going to cede a whole new generation of fans. And I also agree with Joel's earlier point. That's really hard right now because there's a million other things in the world. The NFL is the only thing immune to our media universe right now. What can they do get better?

So they're going to get a lot of valuable viewership information once they start streaming. So they're going to learn a lot more about like micro-targeting consumers and fans. and that's going to be really valuable. So I think that they probably are still like, we don't know what this new environment is going to be like, we don't still really know. We don't have all the data. Like having the base of your work on linear cable

means that you just don't have a lot of information about the people watching. So they're going to have a lot more of that. So I think that that is going to help them. But what can they do? You know what gift the NBA got that Luca is in L.A.? I mean, what a tremendous benefit. Like the only thing that would have been,

better as if like they had traded wimby to the nix or something like that you know what i mean like here's another thing though you're talking i had to bring race into it but you talked about this on the podcast earlier like having a white superstar like dallas but then you're bringing a white superstar generational white talent to los angeles to the los angeles lakers sorry to the lakers to lakers to the lakers got what the celtics used to have you know and so like that is going to be amazing and it like that is really really going to work for them and i also think that like i don't know, like Wimby is going to be, you know, watching his development, or we're going to, eventually his teams are going to start making the playoffs and people are going to get, are going to dig in

him. I'll tell you what, when he comes to town, no matter what is an event. Like, he's one of those types of dudes. He's coming to the Bay in a couple months, and I literally can't wait. Yeah, yo, I can't wait. Like, you know, I'm going to be living in D.C. I mean, I know those tickets in the woods. That's why actually might be tough.

I don't know if the Wizards. Man, pitch a story, go to the game, Joe, shit. All right, that's right. That's right. I forgot. I can be doing that. I don't know why I can use a press pass. But you ask what could go wrong?

I think that, and I've been thinking about this a little bit, they need to figure out a way to get their arms around the amateur climate in the country. And I think it helps. The NCAA is like, has the NIL and guys are going to be able to start participating in revenue sharing. So maybe that will help build stars. But like, Hooper Flagg, you know, he should be a huge, he should be a Zion-esque star. right now. He's not. I don't even know how many people are watching Cooper Flagg.

But like to me, yeah. And I just kind of feel like that's the sign of a problem that that guy, again, a white American superstar. That dude is dope when he played against the U.S. Olympic team. I was at that practice. It was insane. I was like, like, who was going off? Like, I knew if Cooper Flag was on the court, but you had that, who the fuck is this? Yes. Like, that dude is crazy and he can ball. his ass off. And like, he is, I mean, not even by the standards of Zion Williamson a few years ago. He's sort of relatively anonymous on the national scene. So I don't know what the NBA can do to help with that, but like they have a role and they have an interest in promoting the amateur

levels of the game. And I think that that is something that whether they need to be more collaborative with the NCAA, maybe, you know, the G League obviously, well, the G League elite team, that program didn't work out, right? They ignite. Ignite. Ignite. I'm sorry. Yeah. G-League Ignite, that failed. But they clearly are searching for a way to do something with that level of player. And I think that that's the next key. Like, who's going to be following up after Wembe? Like, the NBA has to think about that stuff.

Who's going to be following up after Luca? Yokic looks like he's 44, right, even though he's balling his ass off. So they need to be involved in that pipeline some way, I think. Fascinating discussion. We could have talked for two more hours, but I know you guys got to go. That was Brian Curtis and Joel Anderson of the press box. The J-School, you're tapping with them on the press box feed. We've got to do this again sometime.

This is a blast. Thanks, you guys. Please have it. Well, it's a home-and-home. So you've got to come over to J-School. This is what needs to happen now. Hit me up. I'm ready to go.

I'm ready to go. We go, Joel. All right. We've got to put you on the list right now. Let's do it. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., gambling, problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit

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