The Ringer NBA Show - Luka Gets Revenge in Dallas. Plus, an In-Depth MVP Debate and Individual Awards Picks. | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back to hand out individual awards. But first, Rob was in Dallas for the Lakers-Mavs game, so they get his thoughts on Luka’s impressive return to Dallas and what that environment was like. Then the guys reveal their ballots for MVP (15:15), Defensive Player of the Year (43:55), Coach of the Year (53:50), Most Improved Player (1:00:58), Sixth Man of the Year (1:1315), and Rookie of the Year (1:15:55). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Vrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. A lot on the docket today, gentlemen. We got all of our awards pick, MVP, maybe talk some Denver Nuggets,

try to parse through some of the chaos there. But we have to start with the big news from yesterday because Rob was in Dallas for the big game last night. Rob, tell us about what everyone's talking about. And I of course mean, Najee Marshall starting at point guard for the Dallas Mavericks, as he rightly should be. One of their best players,

someone who honestly, as we're going to talk to awards today, I really wanted to get on my most improved ballot. Love Najee Marshall. Love the season he's having. Didn't quite make it out of my ballot. Spoiler alert. But that game was fucking weird, guys.

One of the weirdest NBA games I've ever been in attendance for, I think, on just like a fundamental level I'm so used to being in any arena around the country and you're used to a smattering of Lakers fans if the Lakers are in town. That is inevitable. Now take that, crank it all the

way up. Like I literally just straight up saw more Kobe Bryant jerseys than generic Mavs jerseys than Clay Thompson or Kyrie Irving or fill in the blank as far as like other Mavs go Derek lively. The Lakers presence was insane. And the Luka Lakers presence in particular

and I think this the splintering segment of Mavs fans, former Mavs fans, who are now just Luca fans, man, it sucks to see. It sucks to like to experience that. And I think it played a huge part in that game being as emotional as it was that it wasn't just emotional for Luca with the tribute video and all. I think it was emotional for a lot of people in the building. Yeah, just watching this from afar like Waz and I were. I think both of us were pretty struck by it as well.

Like when he started crying and it wasn't just like a welling up, it wasn't just like a single tier. He was crying a lot pretty much throughout the entire video board tribute they had. So, was, did you get a little reclumped out there? Yeah, just a little bit because only because before the trade, I'd never really try to get into the quote unquote mind or, you know, psyche of Luca Donchich. But the more people I talk to who have been around Luca, the more you get the sense that he's a really sensitive guy. Yeah. just like a really sensitive guy.

And I don't mean that in the pejorative. Like this guy has feelings. And so, you know, watching that and like, you know, just having a better understanding about the kind of guy that he is and what makes him tick. And, you know, like, I'm 38 years old now. And you realize that, like, this guy's 25. Like, I see him as, like, a kid, essentially.

You know, like, those were the feelings that got stirred within me watching that homecoming unfold the way that it did. Yeah, so Rob, give us a scene from down there. Was it like just tense the entire game? Did it feel like every time the Mavs were at the line or just shooting, did it feel like the crowd was on top of them? See, I expected tense.

I thought this is going to be a weird, like, playoff atmosphere. It just felt more strange. It felt like nobody in the building quite knew what to do with themselves, fans, Luca, other Lakers, these other Mavs who are put in a shitty and impossible position where every time there's a stoppage in play, especially a free throw, fire Nico chance are popping off.

That's crazy. People like the cheering overall was so much louder for Luca than for anything that was going on for the Mavs. It was just an incredibly strange game. And I think it left me wondering, and I wrote about this a little bit for the ringer.com, if anyone involved is going to be able to get closure from this, or if this is just what it's going to be when Luca comes back to Dallas,

because this isn't the kind of thing where you can just say goodbye and be done with it. This is going to hang over the Mavs as a franchise for a long time. They're very leveraged with now older stars, Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving, one of whom is out for the rest of this season and presumably a good portion of next. They're out a ton of draft picks for the foreseeable future. They are not going to get demonstrably better in terms of their roster construction in the near term in any capacity. and so they're just going to be staring down,

Luca memories, Luca highlights, whatever it is that's going right or wrong for the Lakers at a given point in time. I don't know that anything is going to get better for them anytime soon, and because of that, I don't know when anyone in Dallas is going to get any kind of actual closure on this stuff.

So for me last night, there was the crazy stuff with the crowd and the cheering and the MVP chance and all of that stuff, which was, you know, just a strange viewing experience. But for me, there was a lot,

like a bit of a sadness. to watch Lively B. Act, I back out there, right? To see Gafford have an imprint on the game. Clay is splashing threes. Nachie Marshall having moments. BJ watch. I'm like, man,

this team with Luca on it was a nice-ass team. Like, they had assembled such a nice roster, probably definitely the best collection of talent of the entire Luca era. Like, lively, like, you know, looking moving well.

I'm like, damn, that's right. Lively was going to eventually be back before the playoffs. That's right. Gafford can have big defensive, you know, impact when he's really locked in. That's right. Like, Clay Thompson is a knockdown shooter. Like, PJ Washington does have these moments where he's taking it to the rack or making shots off the dribble.

I'm like, this team was so poised to do some nice, amazing things again in the playoffs since you just dissolved this thing. And this is before you even, you know, adding Kyrie was on this team. I'm just like, playing amazing basketball before he got her. Oh my God. I can't believe they broke up this team. They fucked it up so badly. That was the feeling that I got watching this last night.

Yeah. And so I don't know how the Mavs and Mavs fans in particular find catharsis from this because this is the type of thing, as Rob was alluding to, that could linger for a while. I guess watching how many power forwards you can cram and to one single lineup will be some sort of oddity that you can at least plug into, but it's going to be a tough slog if you're a fan of that team. But on the other side of this, I thought it was cathartic not only for Luca, but it seemed like the Lakers started to rally around Luca in ways that were pretty noticeable, like when Luca went off the floor and everyone gives him a hug. And then

LeBron is basically the last guy in line giving him a hug. He had the quote after the game where it's like, oh, I've seen a lot. But this was like, this was kind of a moment, which I thought was pretty poignant and important there because I think LeBron is used to having those moments with him. I can't remember the last time he's had that with another. He's a specator. Yeah. And so I think it spoke to not only like just the way things are going with the Lakers, where Luca is probably going to be the focal point.

LeBron has embraced this role as just like kind of being the caddy for that, being the 1B if you want to really qualify it like that. But it just seems like it was important for the Lakers. It almost felt like it galvanized them not only in this game, but going forward. I thought they did a great job of supporting Luca overall. You're right. Like LeBron, Markief Morris was actually a huge part of that. One of Lucas is now longest running teammates.

LeBron was straight up like leading chance, like leading the crowd in Luca chance at certain points. It was amazing. And yeah, like given all the Lakers and now Luca faithful there, it made all the sense in the world for him to do it. Like those guys were the conductors. And to see that at American Airlines Center was really something to behold. I think most important for the Lakers is that, for the first time to me this year looked like the Luca of old. And what do I mean by that?

When Gafford and Lively and even AD got switched on to him, he went at AD a couple times for sure. Getting by them finishing or scoring. This is, he has not been doing this this year. He's been, especially when bigger guys get switched on to him. He hasn't been able to get by him. He's just been settling for his step back three-pointed, which he took a decent amount of yesterday.

But for the first time, I'm like, oh, okay, this guy's actually one-on-one beating these guys, getting to the cup, getting to the line. I'm like, all right, now this is the Luca Donchage that Nico Harrison is an idiot for having traded, right? Honestly, the guy that he's played, the way that he's played early on in his Laker tenure, I'm like, guys, this is not going to get it done in the playoffs. If this is the version that we get. But last night where he's mixing up, you know, the insane shot making with the more reliable, getting to the paint, getting to the foul line kind of stuff, beating switches one-on-one, getting it out quickly when they send help. I'm like, all right, okay, Nico, you might have fucked up, man.

Yeah, splashing those threes early just seems to open up things for him. Always. Just so dramatically at this stage of his career, it's hard to really tell how much he's still hampered by the injuries versus the conditioning versus just like this entire season being bad. shit crazy for him. But you could see as soon as those started to fall, they had to really guard him up top there. And basically, you're taking PJ Washington, whatever power forward size player for a ride because he's going to have that extra advantage against them. Rob, you were probably in the room for Jason Kids press conference in which he equated this trade to the Babe Ruth trade, which he almost like presented in a positive life. Yeah, he said it's pretty cool.

Yeah, which is so cool. What? Did everybody else have the same reaction in the room? The Wright Sox didn't win another championship for 100 years. I know. They literally couldn't. Does he know that part? I don't know if anyone's caught him up on the history.

Genuinely concerning. But I think par for the course with frankly, Mavs officials stepping in it, putting their foot in their mouth, basically every step of the way on this stuff. I just have not heard many good, constructive, positive quotes. from anyone above the level of player on this team in the public in some time. So they got they got to get together. They got to get together on the messaging on this and maybe don't compare. Granted, Jason Kidd did not concoct the Babe Ruth comparison that was in the Dallas

Morning News yesterday. So he was referring to a thing that was like in the ether, but don't welcome it and don't call it pretty cool. That is pretty cool. Which is kind of cool. Yeah, that was a weird one. Since we're talking about like the specifics of the game specifically like directly. obviously Luca was like one to ten of the top storylines of this story,

but I have to say, like watching Rui fly around in that small ball lineup that they have, I will just say that I think that Rui Hachamura has taken the next step and this sort of concoction around Luca, the small lineup with him and LeBron and that front court, I'm like, this is kind of dangerous. You know, at the risk of circling all the way back and agreeing with J.J. Reddick,

And disputing the next step premise regarding Rui Hachamura, I don't know that I would have identified this as the next step, which was kind of his point. It doesn't have to be one specific thing. It could be anything. And for Rui as much as anything, it's been level of activity, level of defensive acuity, really focus on that end.

He's turned it to a totally different player. It played super well. And yeah, when they take Jackson Hayes out and they put Doreen Phine Smith in there, they're running small, those guys just get it and they understand how to play together and they get their spacing in it. It's not going to work against every team

in every lineup, but it's really going to work against a lot of people. Finney Smith is the sort of the turnkey locksmith unlocking of the defense. Because this man makes every single rotation precisely. He will body up on those, you know, those closeouts and the guy tries to drive past them. He's going to get in great position. This dude makes no defensive mistakes.

Like, watching him is really, cool because he's like setting an effort tone when he's out there. And that's before you get into the IQ and the know-how. He is, he is a great defensive player, man. Like, obviously he's not as athletic as he once was in the Dallas days. But in terms of IQ, man, like, he is up there, dude. And we should say Vando, too, is kind of interchangeable in that spot. Yeah, I bring it up because it does feel like they have a sort of advantage that they're kind of leaning into by being small, but having these guys that have popped by having that baseline, by having Reeves and Luca and LeBron being able to take the lion's share of the playmaking

and the scoring, that those guys are enhanced almost in this setup. And it's something I've been tracking as we barrel toward the playoffs and the play in, and just the West being a complete mess here to the point where the Warriors lose to a Harrison Barnes three last night and a bit of poetic justice and all of a sudden they're back in the play and mix. I do wonder if teams that are a little bit smaller might have an advantage, especially as Denver is in complete disarray at this point. There really isn't that big bad with size waiting to punish those types of team.

Like I guess you could say the Thunder. Maybe the Rockets in there. I was about to say. I think the Rockets might be the one. Yeah. I guess Zubach as well. But there's not like that one team where you're just deathly afraid of like with Minnesota last year where it's like, oh, we have to get through this team.

What are we going to do with our bigs? It's actually like, I don't know. It's playing to the strength of a team like the Lakers with the wars that have so much offensive juice. For sure. I think it helps too, like one of the big differentiating points between the Lakers being the Lakers and the Lakers being say, sons plus. You know, you mentioned that the playmaking of those three stars. One of the big swing points is Austin Reeves, not just in terms of the jump he's taken, but he is a high effort creator and a high effort role player when he doesn't have the ball.

And so that's, you know, the difference between that and whatever you're getting from Bradley Beale is profound, especially when the other two guys are two of the best passers in the entire league. So you're getting huge effort plays from everyone up and down the roster, including, although picking their spots a little bit more, LeBron and Luca, and then just incredibly high IQ plays basically across the board. That's a great formula to have. Yeah, like they had a couple of times yesterday that I thought was really cool, and I think speaks to the kind of synergy that they're basically inventing right now

on the fly is when the Mavs decided, all right, we're going to put two on the ball against Luca. Yep. Luca's like, you know what? It only took like 30 points for them to decide to do that. He was like, you know what? Instead of bringing LeBron up here on the picking roll, I'm going to bring Austin Reeves.

And now he's catching it in the, you know, basically the four on three. And then LeBron is cutting behind it like a freight training when like, you know, even at 48, when LeBron gets ahead of steam and he's catching the ball on the move. Like, that is still pretty incredible. And they did it like two or three times last night. I'm like, man, they got a little, they got a little something going on with the chemistry between those three. Even at 48? That's a good segue. Come on. Yeah. It's a good segue into our awards ballots here just because I think Reeves is

going to come up at the very least in the most improved section. Certainly. So why don't we turn the page there? We did. our team awards on Monday. So you can go back to that podcast and listen to that all MBA, all rookie, all defense. We're going to do the individual awards now. And I think we have to start first and foremost with the MVP debate, which, man, I'll be honest. This is the hardest one in my lifetime. I could feel differently in an hour after this conversation. I could feel differently tomorrow. It's just so tight in a way that it wasn't in years past. Like for instance, I think the Russell Westbrook won was really difficult, but probably because there was such a void of an

obvious like just knock it out of the park candidate. Here it just feels like they're two of the best players playing at their absolute peak of their powers. Yeah. And it's really you're distinguishing between a guy who's having a special season driving the results of a special team versus an individual who's having a special season in order to compensate for the rest of his team, not being necessarily up to par there. And I don't really know how to parse this, especially was after the Denver Nuggets just fire their coach and GM. which I have to say won't bode well for Jokic's candidacy, because I think one of the big thing driving Shea's,

like, ultimate probably going to win this, is the fact that the difference between the Thunder and the Nuggets is 18 games at this point. And so I have to say, like, I don't know, we should talk about should, but I do think that probably won the award for Shea. Look, I'm not against having a narrative sort of influence on your vote. Like, I've never been completely against that.

I just don't think that it should overshadow an otherwise overwhelming case from somebody else. But in this case, it's not overwhelming. It's really not. Neck and neck. And, like, if Yokic has the sort of individual stat case, like, kind of like barely by a hair. He's not a notch above shade in terms of his output this year. And so when you count the wins, when you count this is the first time Shay's going to get the award, the magical season OKC is having,

the fact that Yokic's coach got fired, like, I hate how this is going to sound, but I'm sorry, you can't win MVP the season that your coach gets fired for performance. Like, your coach didn't get fired for some weird thing that he might have did, you know, and, you know, he got like a DUI or something like, oh, he's fired. It's like, no, dude, he's fired for performance of the team. The team is underwhelmed. They got reports out of Denver, out of national media talking about he lost the locker room. I'm sorry.

You can't win the MVP like that, especially when the cases are this close. And that's why I think ultimately, man, I've been Yokin'all year, but I think it is Shea ultimately. And I think he's, you know, more than deserving of it. This is such a fascinating swing piece of this race that I was not ready for. I was certainly not anticipating, but you're right. It throws such a wrench into things that you have to consider, especially at the counterpoint, Shea being such a good culture setter and effort setter for the thunder.

I think his leadership has been a really impressive part of what has driven this run for them. Not to say the Yokic isn't a great leader, but he's kept the thunder together collectively in a way that prevents people from getting fired. That prevents accountability for people who are underperforming. At the same time, I don't know if you guys heard the comments from Josh Cronkey about the timing of the firing and kind of the thought process,

it sounded like they wanted to fire him alone like two months ago and that Yokic basically helped the team get on a nine game winning streak and they're like, well, we can't fire him now. And it seems like they preempted them getting hot yet again because they didn't want to get into a situation where they had to bring these guys back.

Yes. It seemed like they made a decision that they did not want to bring back Michael Malone and Calvin Booth, which we can debate the merits of that if you want. Fair enough. Either way. whatever you want to decide as far as that goes. How should that affect Nicola Yokojj's MVP case? I honestly just don't know.

And so I think with this, I am, I'm throwing up my hands a little bit because I think it is outside of Yokic's control. I think he's lived up to his end of the bargain, basically every respect that a star can. And so I don't want something like this, which is so much outside, like it is extracurricular as far as what Yokic's contributions are to sway a race that is disclosed.

I'm almost saying the opposite way it was. I'm not using it as a tiebreaker because it feels so outside of the jurisdiction. You're saying doing all of this amidst all of the dysfunctioning chaos is a like a. I'm not even arguing that. Oh, okay. I think, look, I do think on a general management level, the limitations of the roster, as Justin alluded to, are something that Yokic overcomes in a way that Shea does not. And that's worth talking about and that's worth parsing in this discussion.

And I don't like punishing Shea for having really good teammates. I don't like punishing Shay for the fact that their defense is absolutely elite in a way that he contributes to, but is not the driving force of. Like is, I would say, among their better defenders. But they're like, we talked about it last week. There's like five different Thunder guys who if they had played enough games would be under all defense consideration. It's so tough because this whole Malone and Booth thing just fees into your base impulse, as I was saying before, where it's like you want to reward the best player on the best team. But we also have gotten to this point where, like, I think we've moved away from that being the utmost requirement for it. I was listening to Howard Beck talked to Zach Lowe on his podcast on Monday,

and Howard has been doing this way longer than all of us. And so he was, and I respect his opinion and it's just like his understanding of history to that extent. And he was basically arguing, you know, it always has been the case where winning matters. I think in recent years, we've kind of pushed up against that. But like, it does, it should be a major factor that. the Thunder have won so many different games. And I respect Howard a lot, but I just like I respectfully disagree with the opinion. And so much as like, I don't necessarily know if that's really what we're arguing, like leads to value, right? We're basically having a philosophical discussion about what value means. And the fact that Yokic has played so well individually. And I think if you're looking at a

lot of advanced statistics, it's probably like one of the top five best seasons. an NBA history statistically to overcome the fact that his organization hasn't provided him with as much as a player like Shay, it gets into this really naughty territory where it's hard to unspool, but I don't think we should necessarily discount Yokish, I guess is what I'm saying, purely based on the success of his team because he's played so well individually. I've said this already a bunch of times on his podcast and I'll say it again. And, you know, I respect Howard's perspective. I don't think it's like a like a, like a bad perspective.

I just, it's just my opinion that individual greatness can't drive wins in the way that it used to be able to. So like, I think, when you say used to was,

like what era are you referring to? Bro, 2011. Okay. So even as recently as that, you think it's changed. If Nicola Yokic is this great, okay, with comparable supporting talent,

in like, I don't know, Cleveland LeBron, that's 60 wins. Straight up. You're getting 60 wins out of this level of production. That, like, that was the nature of the league. Like, the talent just wasn't as high, even on these bad and middling teams.

That's not the case. Just look at the Warriors game last night, bro. Like, that Spurs team just shouldn't be able to beat them when the Warriors have something to play for. And they lost. They were trying and they lost. That's just straight up how the NBA is. So, like, I just think the way. the talent is dispersed

in today's league individual greatness is not going to be good enough. Like LeBronco wins 66 games with Zedrunas and Varajal and Delante West and Monthe Williams, you know, and it was like, it was nothing.

It was like it suspected. He's playing at an MVP level. None of these guys were all-stars or any of that stuff, but LeBron was playing at an all-time great level, and that was 60 wins automatically. Now, Yolkitch is playing at just as high a level as LeBron was in 2009,

and it's a 47 win team. That's the difference between, like, what the league is now to me. And so, like, I understand giving it to Shea for the wins. I just don't think playing like an MVP means you're going to get 56 wins anymore. Shea definitely deserves credit for the win total, for the commitment to the regular season,

for the overall, like, intensity and seriousness. that the Thunder have taken the season with. I think where this is like a big philosophical stopping point for me is I really strongly believe, especially when looking at MVP, I do not penalize players for what happens when they are not on the floor. And I'm not even talking about like the on-off swings with Yokic because when you play with DeAndre Jordan, the contrast is going to look pretty good. I'm just saying we're going to throw out the off.

Like I don't really care about what is happening with Yokic on the bench. I only care about when he plays. And when he plays, the Nugget smoke people every minute that he's on the floor. And granted, when Shea plays for the Thunder, they smoke people by an even wider margin than that. And so it might actually be historic Shea's on-court net rating. It's insane. Like his, again, not on-off, just strictly on-net rating is insane. And so to me, what this does is not, it's not at Feather and Yokic's cap.

It's not an advantage for Yokic. but to me it does mitigate the 18 game gap that exists between the thunder and the nuggets. When we just get down to when these guys play, the margin is a little tighter. And it still lean shade, but it is tighter. I also think the way that Yokic has activated and filled in holes that the nuggets specifically have needed throughout the course of this season is a big feather in his cap. We've talked a lot about the three-point success that he's had. And we marked that as soon as it happened the first weekend of this season where it's like,

He said outright, we don't have shooters. And so I'm going to do this more. And I'm going to do it at a rate better than I ever have to the point where he is 21st and three point percentage, just ahead of Malik Beasley. Obviously, the volume is completely different. But the success is unparalleled. The fact that, like, the nuggets. We've always called him center Malik Beasley. Like, that is who in the Cole of Yoke Jesus.

It's a very popular comp. The fact that the nuggets don't take a lot of threes because they don't have a lot of just pure shooters. but they are so successful at making threes because of Yokic shot generation and getting open looks, I think matters. Like the success of Christian Brown, for instance. So it's hard to untangle those things. I want to give Brown credit, for instance, an MIP conversation. But the fact that Yokish is the one powering those shots, it's like, is that a Yokic situation,

or is that a brown thing? I think a lot of it's Yokish. And so he has done that. I think this is also a time where I think defense probably matters more because we are really nitpicking the really finer points of these candidacies. As Rob alluded to before, I think Shea is a average to above average defender. I think solidly above average. Solid defender, really good help defender. Great hands. Also, like, he's good at getting blocks here and there. Like, he will chip in in a way. And I also think it's easier, frankly, to Yokuch's case, like a little

easier to hide a guy like Shea, who's one of four perimeter defenders versus Yokic, who has to be the fulcrum of your defense. And unfortunately, like, Yoke is just not a rim protector. In fact, he's like one of the worst rim protectors in the NBA this year. He's like one of the few guys were like guys shoot better at the rim going at him as opposed to like in a deficit. And so that factors in the nuggets are bad on defense. How much does he play into that? I was at a game earlier this season in which like he was just letting guys go by. And now because he has such an offensive burden, I kind of give him the benefit of the doubt. But if we are like nitpicking as I said, like those things do start to turn me Shea in a way that like I'm resistant toward but I have to account for.

I think you have to. I mean, Yokic just has not been to the level that he's even been in previous seasons defensively. It has been a lot of business decisions out there, right? A lot of picking and choosing your spots, maximizing what he's bringing to the table on offense, knowing that he has to carry the load that he does. That's a tough thing to calibrate for, especially when the thunder like not only are they deep, their margins have been so dominant that Shay can afford to go harder knowing that I might not even play in the fourth quarter we're so good, right?

Like those sorts of effort calibrations are always really tough to parse. Yeah, and I watched the game against Sacramento last night, way better effort from Yokin's, but guess what? He took 12 shots last night. You know, like, I think there's something to the idea where you've got to drop 40

and when you're not scoring individually, not like anybody's setting you up for any, these buckets, you're going out and getting him for yourself. And when you're not doing that, you're creating the opportunities for every single other guy on your team. Because there is no one-on-one killer on Denver Nuggets besides Yokic, right? Like, everybody has to do it off of the attention that he draws. And so, you know, like, yeah, like no excuses play like a champion. But at the same time, like, I can understand some of the excuses when you consider the burden that he's shouldering. Justin, next time you try to come in here with

any excuse on this podcast as to your performance. It's too early. It's too late. You haven't enough to eat. Whatever it is, we're going to tell you no excuses pod like a champion. That's right. The two early ones are definitely going to pop up.

It's so tough. It almost seems like we've gotten to a point in terms of like the discourse over value of diminishing Shea for being a score in part because playmaking and orchestrating is such a big factor for Yokish and just like in basketball in general. But like I think it's important to underline. Baker two, though. He is. A really good one.

In addition to that. Yes. And the fact that his scoring is driving results, like it's accomplishing the same end goal is just like fetishizing different aspects of the same sort of basic thing there. I do think this is really telling staff from our friend of Zach Cramm at ESPN too, which is that Che will ultimately be the 10th player to win the scoring title on the best team in the league and eight of the nine previous players who accomplished. that won the MVP.

The one that didn't was when Carl Malone got it over Michael Jordan, which was obviously super contentious. That was crazy. And I think there's something to, and I don't know how to describe this, like Shea's season has the feel of an MVP. Oh, without a doubt. You know what I mean? Without a doubt. Like the buzzer beaters and this and the throwing the towel on the freaking and the game. On Nick Gallo?

Yeah. And like there's like a celebratory feel to Shea season. Like there's a, this is like a, I don't know, it's like a campaign almost, right? It's almost like a campaign. Not a Cameron pain, but a campaign. And Yoko's season just doesn't feel that way. It does not have a celebratory feel. to it at all, dude.

It's so bad. I was literally trying to figure out when it was last time a coach and a general manager got fired at the same time. And it's been, it's been a very long time, guys. I think it's been an answer for that. So I think it's either the Billy King, Lionel Holland's Nets tenure, like at the very tail end of the KG Paul Pierce kind of era there. Wow, blast from the past. I wonder what that guy's doing these days. I honestly don't know. Or I think there was a Grizzlies option that Chris Harrington had put for it. I got to check the dates though. I forgot to compare them to see which one was more recent.

Is that the Hubey Brown era? No, I think it's more recent than that. More Lionel Hollins era. It's just it might be his fate. It's so tough, yeah, especially. I mean, there's a, there's a possibility that Nuggets might sink into the play and mix as we're recording this on Thursday.

They're one game up on the Warriors. It seems doubtful that they would, but they also might make the third seed. Exactly. Exactly. jumbled playoff situation is insane. So that definitely has an effect on it. If we find out that Nikola Yokic like requests a trade after the season, I think it will look really weird to look back on this.

Remember we gave Yokic to MVP over the guy that just like won almost 70 games and was the best player and was scoring 32 points a game? So I don't know. Like it's kind of a jumbled mess as you can tell if you're listening to this at home where it's like, I want to give Yokish the benefit of the doubt because I do think. key is the best player in the world who's having the best season of his career and we've already established that that level of success is MVP worthy

so I don't know how to square that logically it's just it's really tough I think this is what's going to determine the vote for a lot of people is where do you put the burden of proof for MVP for me and this is a reason why I at this moment I'm leaning Yokic but to everything we've talked about it is

as tight as it could possibly get put pen to paper and lick the envelope and actually send it over. Like, when is that happening? Do you have a date? I'm going to give myself seven minutes until the deadline. Just for like a little technical glitch,

you don't want to be right up against it, but about as late as I can possibly submit it. That's unique for you. What day is that? What's the date? Shots fired and rarely received. Yeah, what date is that, Rob? Just so the fans know.

Let me check this real quick. Let me see if they got it. They're going to be setting. their alarms to it so that they can hit you to remind you. Like, Rob, make sure you make your deadline, unlike when you're submitting something to Justin Barrier. So we don't have all the finalized information yet. Like, we don't have the full list, for example, of eligible players yet that has to be distributed

after the regular season. But we have up until April 18th to finalize our ballots. So it's- 18th. Still a week for me to do a lot of backflips in a lot of different directions on many of these different awards. But for this one with Yokic, I think for me, if you are the best player alive and you are having a season that reflects that, I personally am going to have a hard time, like, working around that sort of obstruction. And so Yokic, for my eye, is the, like, the best shot creator in the world, the best player in the world.

He's been doing at such an absurdly high level all season. I'm not even really concerned if this year is better than last. He's just been amazing and he's still amazing. He is the best individual score and the best. passer in the league. Yeah. That's insane. His P.E.R.

And now PERR is like, whatever. It is what it is. Favorite centers and whatever. But second, in NBA history, only enough, number one was Yokic in 21, 22. Yeah. Pretty crazy.

So on the, on the defense front, I want to throw one other thing out there that I think it doesn't close the gap on this. I wouldn't say I'm like a 50-50 offense defense. voter necessarily. I think high level shot creation is mostly more valuable than almost anything you can do on defense. Both of these guys are providing that. Shea is the better defender. I also think we just don't really talk about it because it's not a very sexy part of the conversation. Nicole Yoki is just one of the best rebounders in the league. Yeah. An amazing

contested rebounder, a guy who single-handedly anchor you. That doesn't offset everything he's giving up on defense, but it is another attribute that he brings to the table. Just to underline that point, He is currently third in points, third and rebound, second and assists. It's crazy. That's crazy. It's not an advance that. It's unbelievable. So you mentioned they have two games left at this point, the Nuggets do.

What are you hoping to see over the course there? Are you waiting to see where the Nuggets fall in the standings? Do you want to see if Yokic just plays gangbusters without Murray, who is her, who should we talk about? I mean, I would love to see some gangbusters play in any particular direction. You know, again, I don't want to be prescriptive. I'm open to whatever his next step might be. You know, however the reigning MVP wants to take the next step. The standings I'm a little less concerned about just because they are so cluttered,

the idea that I'm going to overindex on them being between three and seven when that might be a one game difference. The Thunder have their advantage as far as the win total scope. They will have the advantage no matter what the nuggets do the rest of the way. To me, it's a little bit more. Am I going to see anything that can budge me from either Shea or Yokic over these last couple games? I'm not ruling it out because it is that close.

but right now I do lean Nicola. The Thunder also have an opportunity to be one of six teams, or excuse me, seven teams, six other teams in NBA history with 68 wins or more. So if they win their last two games in the season, we're talking seven teams in NBA history who have done that. I don't care about a round number, but I do care about a record. Yes.

I do care about crossing a threshold. Look, that is a nice little bit of narrative thrust. So, Waz has Shea. Rob, you're Yokic for now with an asterix. Yeah. I would flip the opposite way where I'm Shea with an asterisk. I'm like Rob where I do want to see these final two games. But, man, the historical process.

So like if Yonkis drops like 60 in the next, like 60 each of the next two games. I mean, he clearly can do it. He did it. Yeah. I know. Should we talk about the rest of our ballots here? Yeah. Mine looks exactly like my all. NBA ballot.

I have Janice Tatum Mitchell. What is the rationale? Yeah. Oh, okay. I mean, but yeah, again, reflective of who we voted all NBA. I don't really understand the splitting of the difference between all

NBA and MVP. Now that all NBA is purely positionless and MVP's obviously always been positionless. There is no splitting of it. I think it's just a matter of your order. Some voters take them differently, right? It's like they interpret most valuable to mean something more specific than the best players. I just kind of interpreted it as who were the best players.

I'm putting the five best guys on my all-M-B-A, five best guys MVP. And I do want to talk about Tatum for a little bit. I just think this guy is at the peak of his powers. He's the fully realized version of himself. What he did against the Nix the other night was nothing short of spectacular. He just dominated these guys in the ways that people were bitching all summer about how he didn't in the playoff set at times or whatever last year because the shot wasn't falling.

Against the Knicks, man, they could do absolutely nothing with him when, you know, a smaller, more slight of the wing guys tried the gardener. He bodied him up, a little 12-foot fade away, like as if he was just taking the layup, you know, off to the dribble. That freaking step back that he did to OG, which OG, what the fuck are you doing? You're up by three. if the guy's going to try to take a two-point layup, you should probably let him, but whatever.

Just an excellent performance. And what he does on defense, you know, guarding Carl Towns and keeping Mitchell Robinson off for the offensive glass and, like, battling as a big, when he's not shutting down perimeter guys, like, you know, getting off the ball when he needs to. Like, I just think he's just having, obviously, the best season of his career.

He's just amazing. right now. And, you know, I can hear people would be like, well, the off, the team is tailored made to his strengths and whatever it wasn't a five out. It'd be a lot harder. And whatever. That, that is a five out. And it looks great. I don't like to tell you. That's what I'm saying. I'm sorry. Brad Stevens has done a great job of putting a roster together that perfectly fits Jason Tatum's strengths, man. And I do, I just wanted to shout him out for having the best season of his career. And I think in a different

world where Yokic and Shea weren't playing at literally Michael Jordan levels. Okay? Literally, they're playing as good as Michael Jordan and LeBron at their peak, okay? In terms of regular season output and production, that

Tatum would get a serious sniff for MVP, but like these, the two guys at the time, it's just ridiculous how well they're playing. It's stratified out. It's just so hard. like Tatum and Janus have both been exceptional. And they just, they're not going, neither one is going to get a first place vote. That's insane.

Yeah. It's wild. You guys have Janus ahead of Tatum or was you saying you have Tatum ahead of Janus? I got Tatum ahead of Janus just because I just, I don't know. I feel like Janus does a lot of his work against bad teams. That's just my opinion. Like he just does it against bad teams, bad defenses. These like 38 point games is against the sloppiest, nastiest defenses in the league.

And for me, like Tatum does this. real time, real games, best competition this year. And his games always have a certain heightened level of meaning because they're defending champs. So they're getting teams best shots on a night-to-night basis. So, yeah, Tatum is above Janus for me. I hate to break it to you, though, but if you play in the Eastern Conference, there are a lot of sloppy, nasty teams up there.

Like, that's just what your schedule is at a certain point. Yeah. I'm Yonis at three. Are you the same, Justin, or did you go Tatum? Nope, I'm Yana set three as well. Although I will say Tatum, just the complete package. It's just been on another level this year. The playmaking, I think speaks to that more than anything.

And to that point, like, we don't talk about the fact that, like, his shot hasn't really worked this year. It's like, it's actually not a shooting great, but he's just been so overall effective. We'll get to the playoffs. I'm sure we'll talk about it when he isn't making three. But, like, right now, he's been gangbusters. But if you have that kind of comprehensive all around excellence, it's okay to have an offshooting season. It's okay to have an offshooting series. When you are that level of defender, when you are.

that level of playmaker. I just have never had more fun watching Jason Tatum than I do right now. He's always had the balance to his game. He's got the confidence too. This is it. Balance and confidence are such a killer combination. And the thing that sticks out to me a lot,

like obviously the playmaking, like he used to just be this like tunnel vision. I'm going to get this shot off no matter what, whether it's a drive or step back contested, got draped all over him. The thing that's also improved is just the strength. He's just stronger than God. He's just going to beat you up physically,

which he didn't always have that element. Those are the two things that, like, have now unlocked him to be like, all right, this guy is just straight up. He's going to be elite every night because he's bigger and stronger than pretty much 90% of the wings that think they can try to guard him. And now when you send the extra help, whereas back in the days he would force the issue, now he's whipping it out quick.

And even if it's not him making a direct pass, is that hockey assist that Boston is so good at too. It's definitely a more visceral experience watching you. For sure. All right, let's look to the next set of... On the Janus front, before we move on, I just want to acknowledge one quick thing. I mean, one, he is as much like a full court,

full force monster as he's ever been. I think maybe a little step down defensively from maybe his best defensive seasons, but still incredible, still ridiculously efficient. And we have been asking, waiting for years, for Janus to develop some kind of between game. And he just became one of the best and most reliable mid-range shooters in the league. Like he shut me up. That's in a blink. And the fact that he did it and he's still not going to

be top to an MVP. I don't know what to tell him because it's just what it is, but he had a great season. That's a good entree into defensive player of the year, which is the next one we have up here. Kind of the opposite of the MVP discussion where I do think the void of Victor Webbenyama not being here for half of the season is definitely felt here because I found myself picking the best of a lot of good defenders, most of whom, frankly, are on just okay defenses, on good defense, but not necessarily the elite ones.

I think you're seeing a lot of love for Lou Dort, for instance, for defensive player of the year. I think he's clearly a first team, all defense guy. I don't have him on my top three. Was, where did you go for number one on your ballot?

This is easy for me. Evan Mobley is my defensive player of the year. To me, he is the, He is the closest facsimile to what Victor does when he's at his absolute apex in terms of defensive impact. Like his ability, man, the KG-like, AD-like ability to play out in space on the floor and be just a monster rim protector. He's stronger than he used to be so he doesn't get pushed around like he was, you know, in his first and second year. I didn't, this was not even a hesitation for me.

I think Evan Mobley is on most nights. I think Draymond Green at his very best. I agree. Is the second best defensive player in the NBA after Wemby because Wembe's nine feet tall. But like, Mobley on Most Nights is the second best defensive player in the NBA. And because of Wembe's injury, to me, he's the deserving defensive player the year. I think that consistency is a huge part of the Mobley case. Like, Draymond, he is a routinely, uniformly very good defender, but we'll dip a little bit and we'll spike more than Mowbly will.

Versus if you look overall over the course of the entire season, Mowbly has been rocksawed the whole way through. And the reason he's been rock solid the whole way through is because he can play so many different ways, so many different styles. Dramon gets a lot of credit for his versatility. I think Mowgli guards in terms of who he's assigned to guard a wider range of player than Dremon does. And on top of that. He's bigger and longer than Traymond. That's the thing. And so, like, you talked about the rim protection was

Mobley is my pick as well, in part because he can play with Jared Allen or without Jared Allen, right? Like, I think people look at that as a case, oh, because he plays with another quality rim protector, another quality defender, maybe we should take that as a demerit against Evan Mobley. When Jared Allen's not there, I'm completely fine. If you are, if you're one of the best rim protectors in the league, and I think Evan Mobley is that, and you can play four alongside someone like Jared Allen and empower

Jared Allen to take the easier assignments or the kind of the back the backstop assignment so you can go out and chase more complicated covers. That's defensive player of the year stuff to me. I have met second for a lot of the reasons you guys mentioned. The versatility is kind of unparalleled, especially with Wemby off the board here and just the impact he has and how much they rely on him to have an impact in order to to buoy their defense. I went with Dyson Daniels at one. As I mentioned, I might not do this in normal years, but I almost feel like we've swung a little too, hard in the other direction on the steals we're not valuing. Well, on the big man, first and foremost, I won't deny that they have more value.

But I think when you're pickpocketing three steals a game at this point, which has been done since the mid-90s when we had hand-checking rolls and all that other stuff, I think we have to stop and take note. I think he's one of the best perimeter defenders we have there, probably the best point of attack defenders that we have. He currently has 92 more steals than the second most on this list of this season. He's 170 more deflections than anybody else. And he's also doing it in big moments too.

I take this from a Stephen No article on Sporting News. He has three game winning steals on the season. That Grizzlies one was one of the most insane plays of the year. Like the way he is blowing up crunch time possessions. This is the one thing you're not supposed to be able to do in crunch time. This is why no NBA teams run actual offense with like seven seconds left. It's clear out one player, make a move, beat a guy, take a shot. We don't want to turn the ball over under any circumstances.

And here's Dyson Daniels blowing up whatever clever little ATO you thought you were running to set up your guy is just not going to work. It's insane. I'm just excited for him too because he kind of was kind of just cast it off in that trade for DeJante Murray. It didn't feel like, oh, he was the centerpiece. It was just like, yeah, we'll throw in Dyson Daniels. we barely use this kid anyway. Get him out of here. And for him to just make himself into a defensive star in his first year,

like being trusted to have a prominent role on an NBA team, just a dope story all up and down for him, man. Just like a proactivity to the way that he's creating turnovers that I think deserves a lot of attention and merit, just because, like, he is positionally a good, like, stopper. But he's not getting charges, nor is he necessarily drawing fouls or like overfowing. He's just like almost like a ball hawking cornerback creating turnovers that are creating fast points, which are creating points. And like I think that like has a lot of impact. Like obviously

blocks have become fetishized at the point where like anyone who's leading the league in blocks, I think it's a lot of attention for this award Miles Turner in years past. But like he's doing that in a way that's also generating offense. And so I think it's like kind of remarkable. Now you could ding him because the Hawks are 21st defensively. But I also think he's had to account for a lot of the deficiencies. They had their Trey Young first and foremost. They haven't had a lot of Jalen Johnson minutes.

A lot of the guys have gotten hurt throughout the year. And so. Also super young too. Like a really young, really injured Trey Young driven team. That's a lot for him to carry. Also what I like about him too, like one of my favorite players of all time is run our test. And peak Ron Artes or Meta World Peace, whatever we're calling them these days,

was just insanely physical perimeter defender. Like this guy was getting his body on folks. And to me, Dyson Daniels is if you had peak Ron Artes, but Ron Artes after the therapy, you know, like not a complete maniac every three games. that's what Dyson Daniels literally reminds me of. He brings me back to those Pacers-era Ron Artest days. Where this guy, he was guarding everybody, you know, and doing a damn good job at it. I mean, Ron Artes Plus Therapy was literally a championship player.

That's what happened. And by the way, he's currently met a Sanderford art test. That is his chosen name at this point in time. Okay. Huh. Didn't know the Sanderford, where that came from. that it popped in, but good for him. Yeah.

Who do you guys have at two through three? What do you have was? I went Mowgli, Draymond, Jaron, Jackson, Dyson, Daniels, Zubach. I think you only need three, but we love the honorable mentions. Oh, yeah, those are the honorable mentions. There you go.

So, Diels didn't make my ballot. Sorry, Dyson, but I'm a big man guy. He did make mine. I have him at three. I have Mowgli, Dreyman, Green, Dyson, Daniels in that order. I had the same three, but I have Daniels Mobley Green. Like I said before, this is Razor's Edge.

And maybe I've just been convinced by the propaganda warfare from, from Dremont of late. But he's been on another fucking level. Yeah, I respect it. For like, have a season at this point. He pops probably more and has more wow moments, especially of Ways and like a Mobley. But Draymond does stuff where like a lot of guys are impressing you physically. Dremont stuff is just like instinctual. will get to a spot that it made no sense for him to be there, but for Draymond just predicting

shit out on the court. Like, that's the Draymond factor that, like, you know, nobody else really has that. Like, his instincts for defense are just on another level, whereas, you know, sometimes you just watch Wemby contest a shot from being 20 feet away. And it's like, how is a human being covering that much ground that quick? It's like physical what he's doing. Whereas Draymond is just anticipating shit that is just like, Wow, there's nobody else that does stuff like that, you know, on a possession to possession basis.

I also have a question for anyone who's listening out there who is a voter or is another media member who thinks of, you know, we're talking about earlier, MVP versus all NBA. Do you consider them the same ballot or not? Like your top five, would they be the same? Is there anyone out there who would consider all defense to be different than defensive player of the year? Like, is there a different criteria for defensive player of the year and there would be for MVP? I can't imagine there would be, but as I was doing this exercise, naturally, we're. mostly drawing from our first teams that we talked about earlier this week. I guess people would just be factoring team success for one more than the other. For defensive player of the year maybe or.

Or even for both. Like if you're saying for all MBA, like maybe that's more about individual accomplishment, whereas MVP is more about team plus individual. I could see that. I don't necessarily see them as different things. And defense seems way more complicated because you're often relying on your teammates it's probably more in order to have defensive success. You're not like, it's hard to have one individual standout defensive statistical case, for instance.

Yeah, I agree with that. All right. What do you guys want to do next? Coach of the Year? Sure. I have Kenny Atkinson at number one. You can listen to our Cavs Pod if you want to talk about that for 20-mile minutes. I have Mark Dagnall at number two, just because of the historic season for the Thunder.

And then I have Emia Doka at number three. Yep. I'm Kenny Atkinson, one, IMA O'Doka, 2, J.B. Bicker, staff, 3. Same. I'm the same as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, and the reason why is that the thunder were like, are, weren't there like a two seed last year? Like, they had already, the one seed, there you go, they had already ascended to top of the Western Conference. Like, like, now, they've added on that, and they feel like more formidable. But I think it's just harder to go from, that middle pack to that top pack.

And so that's what I want to reward to be like, yo, man, we went from me like, no, this is one of the good teams in the league to like, yo, we're one of the best teams. So like, you know, going from the dregs of society in the NBA to like major respectability, like that's big. But like respectability to contention where we like literally think

you're one of the best teams. You can win the championship this year. to where, like, at no point last year with the same roster, did anybody think the Cavs had a chance at the championship? You know, I think that's the most important jump you could make in the NBA. I think it's a hugely important jump. And I think Coach of the Year sometimes does get caught in who is just making the big jump or, like, what is the biggest surprise?

And J.B. Bakerstaff is going to get a lot of votes on those grounds, too. Like, I think 29 wins swing for the Detroit Pistons. That's a lot. That might be insurmountable for any other. candidate. That said... I think it's historic. I fully fucking believe it. That's crazy. For me, like,

I want some kind of stylistic explanation for what is happening. And I think with the Piston specifically, J.B. Bickers-haves had a huge impact, especially in getting that team some real, like, common sense solutions to their problems. I think he's basically maxed out the Malik Beasley impact, the Tim Hardaway impact,

the Tobias Harris impact. Those have gone as well as they possibly could in his hands. Them overcoming Jaden Ivy's injury, I think it's been a low-key, super important part of their season that we just kind of flew by in coronating them as a playoff team.

But overall, I look at the calves, and that is a team that dramatically retooled its offense in Kenny Atkinson's image. I look at the Rockets, and I see a team that plays with Imeodoka's absolute maniacal ferocity. And so those two things are a little bit easier for me to track in terms of,

what is the coach providing these teams? What are the levers that they're pulling? Like, you watch the Rockets this year, and you cannot separate A.M.A. Uduca from the way they play, both in terms of that intensity, but also leaning into how weird that roster is, where Udoca can be a really creative coach. Amen Thompson, you're the four. Oh, wait, Alper and Shangoon, maybe you're the four.

Oh, Jabari Smith, maybe you're the four. I think the flexibility that the Rockets have played with has been such a breath of fresh air, and that's because of what Udoka is doing. Also, what I like about Bickerstaff is he's willing to say shit, like, at a press conference. He's got a lot of, like, Mike Tomlin, vibes, but if Mike Tomlin actually, like, would go after people in the press. I love that about, like, E. May will curse people out on the floor. He's fighting opposing.

That's a new one. But he goes to the press conference that just, like, kind of downplays with his Bickerstaff is like, no, like, we're doing it on the court. I'm in the press talking. Like, I love that about him. He's a bit of a character that way. Well, mid first round series, J.B. Bickerstaff, come on group chat. talk your shit. We would love to hear it.

I know we're the new vehicle for everyone who wants to have a 20 minute interview about just what's going on with your team, but also cats. Why not? I had Bickerstaff just on the outside in for all the reasons you guys mentioned. I found it hard to unspool the difference between some of the personnel decisions that they've made versus just like natural progress with Kate Cunningham and all those guys and just like kind of the low hanging fruit of just giving a player who needs. shooters to activate like shooters in order to do so. Adoka's just done such a great job, basically turning that team into first and foremost in elite defense. But now the offense is starting to come around. And so you're seeing a guy having a direct impact on the style and the choices and just the success of both units.

And I think that deserves a lot of praise. But I ultimately had Dagonal over him just because the precision of that entire organization is something that clearly I've spoke fondingly over of a bunch of times. Just like, they get their challenges right to that point where it's like. almost historic how the success rate they have of that and just the institutional kind of alignment they have with the front office the fact that developing guys the fact that they're working guys in on the fly it's like that stuff can go unnoticed because you might say it's the sam presti thing but i think it takes a coach like dagnol in order to execute it and so that's why i have

matt too you mean hold on you mean if sam presdy hires a shooting coach that dagonal isn't going to kick him out of the gym and force players to to work with the shooting coach off of team for You mean that's not going to happen? I believe they did hire a shooting coach and that did not happen for what it's worth. Oh, okay. Interesting. Okay.

Dagnol's been awesome. And I think, too, another thing with the Thunder season, we're talking about Shay. We're talking about their win total. We're talking about them as a high-end championship contender. And to me, the favorite to win the title, he has managed to pack in a ton of development

into a massive winning season. No small feat for anybody. I think Dagonal is an incredible job. He's absolutely coaching them. up. And I think the biggest marker is just the buy-in that he's gotten out of these guys. Of course, he's, you know, he's got all the analytical stuff to him, too, that a lot of our media cohort love, like, he's good at that. But I think he's gotten these, these guys have run through a wall for Dagnall and each other, and he deserves a ton of credit for that.

Culture is a little bit different there than in, say, Denver right now. Slightly. Seems like the vibes are a little bit better, you know? Just slightly. One honorable mention, and this is a question that literally keeps me up at night, why isn't Ty Loo the coach of the year? It's a good question. You know what? Like, why not?

I think what ends up happening is the guys that we've all decided are some of the best coaches in the league just don't get considered. Yeah. It's just expected that Tyloo's doing a great coaching job. You know, like Popovich never one coach of the year and Spolstra can never sniffed, sniffing. for coach of the year or whatever. Like it's like with those guys, we just kind of just like, no, we know you're a great coach. We expect your team

to do things, even if it's like more than the sum of the parts. And I think that's what it is. I think Talu's universally respected as one of the best out there. And shout to my man Jeff Van Gundy. Shows this Jeff Van Gundy. Why don't we move along? Just we have to cram

in a couple more awards here. Let's do Most Improved Player, which we might have talked about this on mic or maybe off. I can't remember, but I think all of us were having a difficult time trying to really unnot what improvement means because to credit our friend JJ Redick, he had the quote that I think a lot of us agree with is like a lot of times this defaults to the already highly drafted player that just reached the point of their career that we all kind of expected two to three years ago, John Morant probably first and foremost, the prime example of this.

Tyrese-a a little bit different. He was at the very least lower drafted, but like he was kind of on this trajectory for a year or two before he ultimately won it last year. I 100% agree with that. I think this should be more about guys who took leaps based on changing fundamentally parts of their game. Unfortunately, the crop that we have available because of the games played nonsense has completely turned me around. And like, I had to go a different route because those types of guys that I'm hoping for just aren't in play. In fact, like, Norm Powell would be a prime example of this. Speaking of Clippers,

just doesn't qualify because he doesn't reach the game's plate threshold. Not even close. Rob, so how did you approach this and who did you ultimately go away with at one? I have a similar JJ Reddickian approach. And for that reason,

I think Kate Cunningham might win this award. I think he's going to get a lot of votes, certainly. He is not on my ballot. A number one overall pick, who's like finally getting consistently healthy and has better players around him, is not my definition of the award. I gave my number one slot to the player who swung my opinion of him the most this season

in terms of what I thought he was versus what he is. And that's Avica Zubats, who all of a sudden is a two-way monster. Like was a very sturdy big. Now he's one of the best paint cloggers in the league, one of the best room protectors in the game. And I think we talked about him for all defense. He naturally gets a lot of shine on that side of the ball, given the way that the clipper season is gone. I feel like we're maybe selling short the fact that he just matches people down there in the post. He gets around the fundamental problem of postplay in the modern NBA,

which is most guys, even the ones who are good at it, who want to post up, can't seal for long enough to actually get good entry passes, and then defense is disrupted and take it away or crowd them. That's not a problem when you put my guy Zoo a fucking Mack truck down there, like just park, seal, deliver every single time. Abiza ZooBots, just an awesome player. Can we take that example, though?

Because I think that's a very important one in terms of like trying to pinpoint who deserves this award. was Zubach's progress, you think, because of improvements he made or was he featured more because they did diversify the offense a little bit with Paul George out of it? I mean, flaky answer, but both. I think it is both. I mean, how do you say he's been called upon? And I don't know.

In the previous years, I don't think there was anything to indicate that this was definitely going to happen if the clippers called his number more. I don't think that was the case. I think there were a lot of advanced numbers that suggested that his post-up game was this good. He just wasn't his features as much, but I do think you're right. It takes somebody to take the opportunity and make the most of it. I mean, 17, 13, and 3 for an elite defensive big, that puts you in a different stratosphere of players as far as I'm concerned. Very good. Was, who do you have at one?

My number one is actually Christian Brown, man. And it's because the jump shot has vastly improved, not just an accuracy, but just the confidence that he's taking it and his ability to put the ball on the deck. Like these are two things. Bro, he was horrible at dribbling. Okay? Like, it was detriment to the team. Anytime this

guy put it on the deck, he's, look, he's not, you know, nobody's going to call this guy Alan Iverson with the handle. Right? Like, we're not doing that, but he's just gotten so much better and so much more reliable, putting it on the deck, getting to the cup, finishing.

And the three-point shot, has gotten so much more reliable and confident. And like these are two areas that the team like needed. That's why like stands out to me. Like they needed him to step up in those ways. And so that's why he's my MIP, you know, instead of a Dyson Daniels who we just talked about who like, yeah, he's having more impact,

but it's like, wouldn't he not have done this if he just got more chances last year? Even more defensively, which he was already good at. Yeah. Exactly. Even Austin Reeves, who I think is like taking, a step. But like, it's in line with what he's shown in like the playoffs already as being like a secondary ball handler after LeBron James, right? And so that's that's that's why he's my picking.

And I think, and the other thing I will say, I think the actual most improved player in my opinion is Evan Mobley, um, who's gone from just vote on it was vote vote vote him. Vote him as your number one. He's, I have him as my number one. Hell yeah, Justin. To me like he's actually like, way better than he was last year. Like, he's way better, you know, and in ways that it's like he's like borderline top 10 player better. Well, he just was nowhere near that last year, dog. And I get it.

He's a high pick. He got it. He's like a max player. And I understand all of that. But, like, in terms of, like, the impact is just so much further, you know, and then, like, we could have reasonably, I think, expected this year and be like, all right, he's going to take a step and he's going to be better. This is way better.

Definitely. That's why I have Matt one because he's fundamentally changed the entire shape of his offense. He's gone from like a neutral offensive player at best last season to one of the most impactful offensive players and probably one of the most important players in basketball when you consider that he's driving a lot of the success of the best team in the Eastern Conference. Just to quantify that 70th in box plus minus offensive box plus minus last year, he's at 30th. And so we talked about this at length. He just went from one player to a complete different player. And I know that we just said that like a highly drafted player shouldn't be in

the mix for this. But he's also had a different type of career where like he made such a stark difference in how he's approaching things. And so for instance, Kate Cunningham, as you guys mentioned, is going to get a lot of love for this. I think Cade is practically the same player he was last year, just more successful at it. He's a heightened, more sophisticated version of the same playmaker. He just has more space and he's better at using it. And he's really, really talented. He's going to make all NBA. Yeah.

And like the floater is much more of a weapon for him this year. So I give him credit for that and he's refined it and shizzled. This is approaching a way that I think deserves like consideration here. But it's starkly different when it's just you're getting better at what you do versus Mobley who's like just added a bunch of stuff. Yeah. But he was a different player. So that's why I have Matt one.

I think he's a great choice. And I like, I love this for us. I love that both of you are giving Evan Mobley love. And me over here, I already thought if immobly was sick. So I don't need to put him on my most improved ballot. You know, I feel very comfortable with my life choices. He has definitely, because the offense was a problem, especially in the regular season last year. Now it's now he's a problem with the smoke coming out the nose.

Well, on a similar vein, that's why I have Jaron Jackson at number two. Ooh, I love that. Who made the big jump last year in like changing different aspects of his game. and you could argue that the team leaned into it more or the fact that he's just like kind of chislet so it's more efficient. I really look at it like if last year was bulking season, this year is cutting season.

But the fact that he's doing things so differently and being successful at it, I do think it merits. It's different than Cade who's done similar things throughout his career versus Jackson, who it's more like a two-season jump and now he's just way better at it, way more efficient at it. Are you bulking or cutting right now, Justin?

A little both. I have been going to the gym regularly, and I got to say, like, I'm feeling the power coming back, you know? I love that. I love an empower adjustment. Feeling the pump. Love that. Tank pod, maybe midsummer for us? That's not going to happen for me, but I support both of you.

Tank pod, let's go. I actually did end up walking back to Dyson Daniels as my number two. And I take everything that we've mentioned about his development in stride. I think we were already fans, specifically what he was doing defensively. part of the jump for him is interesting because it's him getting more confident on offense. Clearly the shooting is still a little touchy, but better overall.

To me, the bigger adjustment is him with the ball in his hands, getting into the lane, getting into crowds, and mixing it up. His ability to do that and to turn into a usable, useful offensive player

is what allows him to play more minutes, right? Like you bump into that hard wall as an elite defender where it's like, you just can't get on the floor from more than like 22 a night if you don't have anything to offer offensively.

And so him being a good offensive player has then transformed his defense. Like we wouldn't be talking about him for a defensive player of the year if he didn't have the steals total. And he wouldn't have the steals total if he wasn't playing as many minutes as he is. So that's why I was kind of convinced into walking him up to number two. Yeah. It seems like Quinn Snyder definitely made the decision early on that they're going to play through all of those mistakes. And he's seen it like make way a lot of progress as he's gotten deeper into the season. He's driving a lot of offense there.

was who do you have at two and three my two is dice and my three is austin rives i have reeves at three two which is tough because like pre-train deadline he was very good but he certainly popped in the luka construction of this team and so i don't know how much to weigh that but he has fucking popped to the point where he's like averaging 23 points a game

and like close to 50 40 90 like he's in we're talking i don't know if all star isn't the cards there maybe if he played on a different team. But yeah, he's that type of player where if he had the opportunities, I think he would be in the mix. Yeah, I think he's been sensational. And frankly, if you can do that alongside Luca Danchich,

I give you credit for that. Luke is really good at taking extremely limited players and putting them in expanded roles, maximizing their utility. There's not a lot of precedent for an Austin Reeves type coming in and all of a sudden reaching their maximum efficiency, their maximum output. He's been sensational.

It's crazy because there are times during Laker games where LeBron and Luca on the court with Reeves. And I'm like, all right, man, let Austin get a try here. Seriously. Like, he hasn't touched it in a while. Like, literally, I have those moments constantly watching this guy play. And, you know, the reason why he's not higher up, I want to take knowledge, like, that he's actually taking a step.

Again, like, he's shown this on-ball stuff, the ability to get downhill, the ability to, like, you go under. screen or you know, you're basically late trailing off of it. Like, bro, I'm going to bury a three off the dribble. Straight up. You know, he's shown this ability. And now, you know, he's getting it out fast enough. I just think he's one of the most fun players to watch.

And, like, he draws, and I know, like, a lot of it is, like, the Laker fans anytime Austin Reeves does anything, it's sort of like a toddler. Like, you know, he paints, like, the ugliest thing on a piece of it. the paper and it's like, oh my God. But like he legitimately gets a lot of the ooze and the odds from the crossover and the handles. It's, you know, it's fun to watch.

He really is new coups, but actually good. That really is what's happening there. But I know we got to move on. Rapid Fire. Ty Jerome, if he was minutes eligible, I think would be a great candidate for this award. Naji Marshall, we mentioned Tim earlier. Peyton Pritchard.

Christian Brown is mine number three. So I want to make sure we get that on the record to. Aaron Wiggins should be getting some most improved love. I think Aaron Wiggins is at a six season, did not know he was capable of that offensively. We love to see it. Other honorable mentions, Deni Abia. Sure. Of course. Josh. Do you have any blazers on your actual ballots, Justin? No, because I'm going the opposite way now where I feel a bit of shame. That's you. Bring back shame. Good.

Jalen Duren and Tyler Hero also on my short list. Yep. Sixth man, an award that is complete nonsense. And to that point, I'm choosing between Ty Jerome and Peyton Pritchard. And the one thing I find myself struggling with is the fact that Peyton Pritchard has played almost a thousand more minutes than Jerome. But then we get into this weird thing where it's like, isn't success in fewer minutes the whole point of this fucking award? So I have Jerome and then Pritchard, but like, I have no idea. I think this is the dumbest award that we give. It is a pretty dumb one. Those are the two guys. And I think Peyton Pritchard should have got some mention for most improved as well. But I gave it to Todd Jerome.

Like his season, like, it's just popped in a way. And again, similar to Shay, it just feels like he is the sixth man of the season. And so, yeah, I definitely got him with Payne Pritchard a close second. Because, like, when he comes in, he legitimately, it's just like, yo, this guy belongs with the starters. That's how it feels like whenever Payton Pritchard is in the game. Like, it doesn't feel like there's some major drop-off, you know, between him and, say, a Derek White.

And so, yeah, Shows to Payton Pritchett for the insane. season that he's having. I love what Ty Jerome has brought to the Cavs this year, tangible and intangible. And that guy hit some tough-ass shots. Like, he is just a tough bucket getter in a way that I did not know he was going to be capable of that. And I don't know that the Cavs entirely knew he was going to be capable of that, but it's been a huge part of their season. I have Ty Jerome on my ballot. I have Malik Beasley on my ballot. And then I was thinking, isn't Peyton Pritcher just Ty Jerome plus Malik Beasley. He's hit the volume three's at the ridiculous rate. He's doing like the

the jitterbug offense. So I have Pritcher, Ty Jerome, Malik Beasley in that order. Gotcha. Yeah, that's what I have as well. Shout out to Isaiah Joe, Scotty Pippin Jr. and D'Andre Hunter, who I consider it as well. A couple did not qualify as we talked by Norm Powell, Obie Toppin, I think would also

be an interesting candidate if he qualified, he does not. Also, are we sure it's not just still Nasreed? I've heard zero Nasreed buzz. He's basically having an identical season to what he does. last year. It just shows you the weirdness of this stupid reward. Truly.

It's just, I don't get it. Also, Malik Beasley might win. I have him number three on my ballot. I'm not 100% sure that he is their best reserve. Shout out to Issa Stewart, Beef,

Beef, Stu. Just one of the best defensive players coming off the bench anywhere in the NBA. By the way, a lot of feedback on Beef Stewart, people thought y'all were trolling me and didn't know. And like,

actually, honest, yeah, straight up. I just thought it was bulking season perpetually for Beef, This is great. Yeah.

Well, from one stupid award to, I guess, just a stupid awards race, we have to finish with rookie of the year. Probably one of the worst in recent history. This is real like Michael Carter Williams territory. This is Michael Carter Williams. This is, what's his name? Macon Brogden. Well, there's no Joel NBee in this pool.

The Mike Miller rookie of the year. Yeah, this is a nasty year for rookies. But Castle seems to me to beat a. the obvious choice here. And then watching him last night against Golden State. I'm like, this guy, this kid is a guy. Like, he has juice on the ball. Like, he's hunting switches.

Like, this guy has so much confidence. He's obviously the rookie of the year. They got rounded it out with Risha Se and Saar, I guess. You know, I wanted to give Jalen Wells some love too. But, like, this is the guy averages 9.5 points a game. Like, you know, like, I don't know. But 9.5 points of game is probably like sixth among rookies. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. It's contributing to winning, so item third as well. Yeah. I actually did not find this like open and shut. I think Risesh as a really good case. And it's a little bit more either or pick your flavor with the way it ended up with him in Castle. I'm a little more Stefan Castle by type in terms of what he's bringing into the table. But I think, I think Rieser J's had a really good second half of the season in particular and has like a little bit more shooting and overall like defensive flexibility than Castle does just because of his size.

that I can't wait to see what Zachary's just a change is going to become. So the shooting is certainly a concern. I think that's more of a long-term roster building thing with the spurs because you're going to need that from him if you're going to drive things through Fox and Wemby going forward. I think the counting stats without Fox over the past 15 games have swung it pretty definitively with Castle where it's like if he has the opportunity to play on a worst team, he could just put up the numbers that win this award 19, 6 and 5 with about 6 to 7 free throws a game over the past 15 games.

Just playing low stakes basketball, but he's putting up the numbers that should win him the award. He would be the fourth rookie of the year in Spurs history. David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Wemby, and Castle. Wow.

That's amazing company. That would be the third most for a franchise of having Rookie of the Year award winners. Can you guys name the team with the most rookies of the year? It's got to be someone kind of shoes. I'm thinking it's someone pretty shitty.

like uniformly bad because they would be drafting high enough consistently enough more than four rookies of the year. I think the Orlando Magic might be up there. They are seven. Seventh. Who else has had like a record?

Bro. I want me to give it to you? Yes, please. Yeah. Isaiah guesses the Sixers. No, they're not even close here. Warriors at six. Bob of the Clippers and Kings tied at fifth.

Blazers, Wizards. Blazers, Wizards, and now the Spurs are tied at third with four. Okay. A lot of Chris Weber, Mitch Richmond era guys up there. In addition to like Wilton, yeah,

Gary and those type of guys. Who was the most recent Warriors rookie of the year? Probably Weber. It's trying to think. It hasn't been for a while. Did Antoine Jameson win or something? Like, you know, one of those weird ones.

Vince Carter was the rookie of the year that year. You're right. Yeah. Some real old head talk just to wrap us up here. Just naming some guys. We've been naming guys all pod. Let us have our moment to name some old guys. That's right.

But we will wrap it there. Scheduling note for next week, we're going to do Monday as scheduled. But Thursday's pod will be happening Wednesday night. So we're going to be covering playing and playoff stuff. So we'll be in your feeds Wednesday night. If you're true like sicko and just want to listen to play in coverage at midnight, specific time on a Wednesday. So, check us out.

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