The Ringer NBA Show - Luka’s Less-Gripey Magic, Mitchell’s Next Move, and Draft Lottery Ripple Effects | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos recap Wednesday night's games, starting with the Mavericks taking a 3-2 lead behind a spectacular performance from Luka Doncic. They talk about how the Mavs pulled off this win on the road, rotation adjustments made by both teams, and more (6:56). Then they move on to the Boston Celtics closing out their series with a Game 5 win over the Cavs. They provide their takeaways from the series and discuss what the future of Donovan Mitchell and the Cavs looks like (25:22). They wrap up with their thoughts on the draft lottery results, specifically talking about what the Rockets, Hawks, and Spurs might do with their picks (51:15). Buy tickets for the live show in Los Angeles here! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Social: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every true football fan knows that the NFL season truly begins after the Super Bowl champion has been crowned, and the ringer NFL feed will keep you on top of all the news still happening around the league and heading into the 2024-25 season. I'm Sheila Capadia. And every Monday and Friday, Ben Solac and I deliver sharp takes the debates on the draft, free agency training camp, and beyond an extra point taken. And every Wednesday will have dual threat where Stephen Ruiz and yours truly, Nora Princeati, dive deep into all of the big offseason developments, with Ringer favorites Austin Gale and Lindsay Jones stopping by occasionally to share their expert football analysis.

Subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to follow the Ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and X at Ringer NFL. Group chat, I am Justin Barrier and joining me in the no-flex zone, Rob Mahoney, big waz. How's it going, guys? It's where we live. It's where we sleep. We will never escape the No Flex Zone, fortunately or unfortunately. They know better.

Is that who it is? It's right. Remember Slim Jimmy is the lesser known of the duo. Swayley is kind of a superstar. His brother is just a kind of also-ran. He's almost the Frito of the group. Yeah. You knew that, right, Rob?

Oh, of course. Did you not? That'd be really awkward for you if you did. No, I'm used to Slim Jim. Jimenez old stuff, you know, when we went by a different name. You guys aren't fans of the Srem Life trilogy? That's crazy. No, Justin actually discovered it.

He's the LeBron of all No Flex Zone soundtrack commercials. I have to say, I'm walking into this podcast, a little trepidation, you know? I feel like it might be wires around here that I'm just going to trip and there's just a boulder falls on me. So if I'm a little anxious here to start, perhaps that's why. What are you expecting? What do you think could happen here? Nothing. I think everything is gone according to plan as far as I can see.

Oh, okay. That's good. Yeah, do you want to get out of the way now, Justin, or do you want to save it for later? Let's get out of the way now, you know? The consequences of your actions just swooping in. You know, maybe I jumped the gun, just a little bit. You know? It's big of you to say, look, the thing that I've been harping on, Justin, is it's not about the nuggets. It's about you taking the nuggets and turning them into something they're not. That's really what my problem has been.

It's the hyperbole. It's the takery. It's the criticism that, frankly, just isn't true. You have this written down, don't you? Thankfully, Spotify transcribes our pods now, so I didn't have to do too much work for it. You know what's the best part about the Yokit rant that Justin had let off in here and the Nuggets rant? All the things that he accused those people of doing about premature and going nothing. and spewing hyperbole is exactly what he was doing during that entire bit.

That's the best part about it. I think you guys raise some good points. I have virtually no notes. But I would say long term, still a question, you know, still up in the air. I don't feel very good about, I guess, my Timberwolves now, I didn't feel particularly good about the Timberwolves going into these playoffs. I think I actually picked the Suns to beat them. But, you know, I think you're starting to see some signs of fallibility, you know? Let's just go with that.

Sure. I mean, Waz and I will not be fooled so easily. We know the series isn't over. We're going to, this is the, this is the early stretching for a possible eventual victory lap. It's the playoffs. There's no reason to jump out the window after two games. And honestly, after five games, you don't have to, even if the team that you picked to win the championship has looked utterly dominant against the best defense in the NBA. So I'm just taking it a game at a time, a take at a time.

Yep. And just, you know, just chilling, man. The Boston Celtics just advanced to the Easter conference finals. Obviously, both of us are still alive in that great bet. And I'm happy with how things have shaped up. I really am. Yeah, I'm starting to look at tasting menus, really just trying to get a sense of what might be available.

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. Look, I think what's most painful about this, Justin, for all of us, we tried to warn you. I even told you on the podcast, look, a 2-0 series can change very quickly. Yes, Justin was convinced. You know what was the best part, too, is that halfway into game three, Justin's texting us like, oh, God, they're officiating it differently. Blah, blah, blah.

These freaking officials have come to take me down. Listen, Jamal Murray just looks reborn. I don't know what he did in that three game layoff that they all of a sudden had, where he did not get suspended. Just curious. I think you listened to group chat is what happened. Yeah. Well, I appreciate everyone reaching out asking me how their asses tasted.

Yeah. How did they taste? It was like of insecurity and regret. Would you say were the main notes or what were you tasting? Listen, there will be no kinkshammy. on this show. All right? We went there.

I was just sharing a proclivity and you guys responded in kind and here we are, you know? Just wanted to share a little bit of myself with you guys.

God bless the NBA playoffs. There you go. I feel like we're one-one. At the very least, Waz and I are, you know? Wait, what is the one in the one?

In terms of freakouts. Was had his Boston thing in the first round. I had my Denver thing this round. Rob, if you want to do something in the conference finals,

you're more than welcome to. Yeah, yeah. Maybe Daniel Gafford does something that just like set you off. We're here for you, man. Well, let's let's hold our horses. Let's see who gets to the conference finals. And then I'll pick and choose my ranting spot. Okay. Before we get to those Mavericks, we have to mention the live show. Yet again, tickets are on sale. The ringer.com slash events. Just a reminder, we are going live. Rob Mahoney, Big Was, this guy, JV. No asses will be tasted on that show. Unless you know, maybe afterward. Tuesday, June 18th, 8 p.m. Go get your tickets now before they sell out.

Elrite Theater, Los Angeles. There you go. On to tonight's docket. The Dallas Mavericks are now up three to two on the Oklahoma City Thunder. Luca, what a game. Apparently Luca is pretty good, Rob, when he doesn't spend half of the game bitching to the refs. What do you know?

It did seem a little pointed in this one, didn't it? His, the all-business, no fucking around. mode mentality from him. I can't say I don't appreciate it. Mostly business. There was still some fall on the floor, accentuate, stay long while the other young-ass team

with the horses is speeding down the court. You know, there's a couple of times with Lou Dort smacked him in the ass and he accentuated and did the neck snap and he looked over at the ref. So it was mostly business and I think we were all grateful for it honestly. Yes, but who among

us is not a little dramatic at times? And I frankly, think he earned it. Who among us? Yes. Luca came into this game. In the first half in particular, just a complete stone cold killer, as firmly in control of everything that was happening,

as much as we've seen at all in these playoffs. And in particular, the lobs he was throwing, including a 70-foot oop to Derek lively at one point, it just seemed like he was plugged in on every single rotation. And he Euroed Lou Dort so, bad. He has to have an international. He is Slovenian citizenship now. Congratulations to Lou Dort. I just think he looks so comfortable tonight in the spots that he wanted to pick in ways that,

you know, where he's just literally giving the rock up in the fourth quarter of the last game as their lead is dwindling and letting everybody else do something where he clearly didn't feel like he had the energy or, you know, the sort of knees to do it. And tonight, he just looks so comfortable. getting into his spots. And that forced OKC to sort of bend the defense to Lucas Will. And that's when he started hitting guys as his, you know, his standard, man. That's what I took away from this. He looks so unrushed, you know, like he could just pick every single spot,

every single possession. And that was the main difference to me that he could be aggressive scoring. And then now he could open up everything else for the Gaffords and the Washington's, et cetera. Well, Derek lively in particular, who had an awesome game tonight. It just feels like going out and getting those two bigs, already having lively in place, but getting Gafford was just like adding the premium package for these two guys. And you could just see everything that they're doing on top of that. It was just another one of those games.

But on the flip side of this, I think you have to look at the friends around Shea Gildjus Alexander, another awesome game from Shea, but probably the worst game for not only J-dub, but also Chet and maybe also Dorp by the time. in the fourth quarter where Dort was airballing those threes. I was audibly retching. I was like, I actually made a sound out loud that sounded like an air balloon going off, like letting the air out of a balloon. Could you make it right now?

I think it was something like that. It's hard to recreate the magic, you know? But that's what it felt like for the team as well. It's just like all of this momentum going in and he just misses absolutely everything. Well, I think it helps that OKC is a phenomenal comeback team. Famously, more double-digit comebacks in the regular season than any other club out there. You have to keep your foot on the gas.

And I thought Dallas down the stretch, there were some possessions where Luca and Kyrie were overpassing a little bit. They were looking for some of those interior feeds that were there. That Ali Upe to Gafford was an overpass. He had the wide open floaters. Kyrie, you got to make that. Perfect example. And those errors happened. But what was important was that Dallas was just getting stop after stop, after stop.

And they were slowing everything down. And as a result of that, they were able to completely control the game down the stretch to where you do get some awkward situations like Lou Dord, airballing a three on kind of some random basketball. You do get a transition play where Luca stuff's Shea going to the basket, something we certainly don't see very often. But overall, it was just the integrity of that team defense that prevented the thunder from making any kind of comeback at all. So I'm wondering, you guys, because to me it seemed obvious that the Thunder basically struggled to score outside of Shea all night long. Luca makes a deep three, puts Dallas up 18. I think it's 89 to 71 or something there about in the fourth quarter. And it's like, okay, this thing is a rap.

And Dagnal comes in with a smaller lineup, and they completely spread Dallas out. and they start scoring better. They cut this thing down to eight with possession where they could have, you know, got it down to six, perhaps even five. They end up missing the shot. So I'm wondering if that's the answer. Because the last two games, man,

outside of the fourth quarter where they're trying to mount these furious comebacks, their offense has been stuck in the mud. But for the fact that they switched it up and spread Dallas out, I'm wondering if that's what they got to go to to win this series. Or can a team that's already kind of physically compromised afford to go small for an entire game against Dallas?

What say you guys? They're going to have to hit threes. It's one of those things where the spacing is great and it does create some momentum. You can even see just by taking Josh Giddy out of the starting lineup and putting in Isaiah Joe, Shea got a dunk within the first couple minutes of the game, right? There are just lanes there that do not exist when Giddy is on the floor in particular. And so, yes, going smaller, spacing the floor out, all very good things. But this is a great three-point shooting team that has clammed up.

And it looks like their confidence in those shots is a little shaken. And in particular, J-Dub has always had a little bit of this, but he is a fairly reluctant long-range shooter despite the fact that he's good by percentage. And I know he went 0 for 3 in this one, but he's got to take those looks. And you can see it in some of their role players, too, where they just hesitate a half a second too long on the catching thinking, do I swing it? Do I attack it? Like, how do I keep our driving kick momentum going?

Sometimes you just got to let it rip. And I don't think the thunder are letting it rip enough. And it's ultimately kind of costing in the confidence going into those shots. Yeah, all the barking belies J-dub being ultimately reserved and actually just like conservative-style player

to the point where that is kind of why he's taken off. He takes good shots and plays good basketball, right? And so like you want that exact guy next to Shea. And he has the ability to jam it down someone's throw, especially in transition.

But like, you need him to take a step four and actually grab the reins a little bit more than he's used to. And so this is where the young stuff starts to come in. I agree with what Waz was saying, though.

It does feel like there's this difference between Wallace being out there than even a Joe or some of these other guys, Wiggins, cycling through that fifth spot. I appreciated what Dagnall did by benching giddy coming off a win, let's just say outright.

Like clearly those men weren't working. Everybody was talking about at this one at that point, everyone had seen it. It didn't really have much of a practical effect, though. It didn't seem like it necessarily changed anything and didn't give the offense a jolt that they needed. No. I wonder, though, because Wallace wasn't hitting shots either. And so, like, do you just keep cycling through guys? Like, what's the move there? Because nobody was really the answer tonight. Yeah. And there's going to be nights where that's the case, right? These guys are young. They are somewhat limited players in their own way. And the appeal of the Thunder roster is that you can plug and play some different options

in that spot. But if none of them are working, you're kind of where you started. And ultimately, that is, you're right. Shea's one-on-one scoring in the series has been sensational. Chet, ultimately, I don't think they've been able to keep him involved in the main action enough. And so he goes long stretches where he is just spacing on the perimeter, which isn't a great use of his talents. Like, he needs to be contributing in different ways and more ways than that, especially with the way Dallas is closing out to everybody right now. And so if J. Dub is a little conservative, if these other shooters aren't hitting, if Chet is playing a pretty limited role, something has to shake loose.

And it can't be shay every single time. Yeah, I mean, Lou Dort taking eight threes. I think a lot of those, at least a couple of those with desperation at the end of the game. They're daring. Yeah. But some of them are quick fire to make you a little queasy kind of attempts. Lou Dort always has that in him. And that's the thing about the young.

team where in the regular season, like I said, it's fun that they're exploring these things, that Lou Doort has the green light and the freedom to do that. But in the postseason with literally every single possession matters, and you're losing these games on razor thin margins, maybe scale back some of those Lou Dort trays. But yeah, I mean, to me, Wiggins and Case and Wallace have to be the guys you live and die with because they just, they're getting more respect at the three-point line than Giddy is. And if people are going to treat Giddy as if he's, you know, Tony Allen or somebody, then I don't think he should be out there, man.

Like, that's just where I'm at with it. Hey, he made a nice little floater. He had a couple of, like, nice little hit-aheads in transition. But I wonder if that's even making up the difference in all the things that he's bringing them down in. And I know we sound like a broken record killing Josh Giddy every single OKC game. But sometimes it just feels jarring because people are going to be like, well, I looked at the box score.

the guy was five of eight, you know, he's only a minus three. He looked pretty good out there. I just think that the nature and the character of their offense completely changes in the way Dallas wants to guard them in the way they could just suck into the paint. I, you know, I just don't see it for him this series. I don't either. And it is one of those things that we all saw coming from a million miles away, right? At some point, they're going to be faced with this sort of challenge of teams not guarding him on a consistent basis, forcing him to contribute. in other ways, and it's going to be a problem. And I thought one great observation that I saw on Twitter was from Nate Duncan

about this, which is it's not just about the spacing, but when Giddy is out there, the intensity of how the Thunder play dips because they're all trying to problem solve this weird alignment and all of these multiple bodies in front of them. And so the energy of the team is changing when he's out there in a way that is not healthy for them.

He has a little bit of a controller glitch issue sometimes where things just don't seem to process as well as you'd think. especially because he has such good vision on the offensive end. And it's the thing that we talked about before, maybe his last episode where it's like on one end, someone could be just like preternaturally like a genius and just be able to see things other people don't.

But then on the other end, it's almost like they can't tie their shoes, you know? And he kind of has that and you watch it. And it's just like things are happening and pinging around him. And he just doesn't react fast enough. And so I ultimately wonder, though, if we're just at Alchem's Razor with this series, the Thunder comeback in the previous game was incredible.

and they deserve all the respect for that. I mean, we should probably invoke the Vince Carter. It's overrule at this point. It's not overrule. But I just think, like, the past few games, the Mavs have probably been the better team by and large. They've been the better team for the majority of these past two games. Yes.

It's been pretty distinct. The Thunder don't, yeah. Well, one thing they had that the Thunder didn't is Derek Jones, Jr. Like, that's the kind of player and the force you're getting from a random role player on your roster, in this case, a starter, but a good one. That's what OKC needs. who's slashing like that. So we was playing with that kind of defensive energy.

And the Thunder guys are all good players. There's a lot of really smart young players on the roster and in the rotation. But I don't know that they had a single role guy who matched the energy and the impact that Derek Jones Jr. had. And that's just one Dallas role player to say nothing of PJ Washington following his own shot and getting a monster dunk down the stretch of this game. Obviously, lively in Gafford, we've sung their praises. It's just kind of coming from a corners for Dallas to the point where, yes,

Luca and Kyrie are playing well. and yes, they are driving the offense, but they're kicking, and these guys are converting. They're hitting open shots, they're making smart cuts, they're hitting the offensive glass. They're doing everything they're supposed to do, and the Mavs win if that happens. Also, like, replacing Exum with Hardy in the rotation.

Like, I just think he only went one for five, but he just has so much more juice with the ball in his hands. Like, he's making the defense react to them, which you could then open up other things like offensive rebounds, etc. Even when he's not hitting, he just feels like there's more energy and juice in what he's doing when he's out there. And Exum has. And Exum obviously hasn't been able to hit a shot either. Man, I like how Josh Green has been guarding so far. Like, he plays with just incredible energy. I thought that one corner three that he made was huge and sort of, you know, sort of breaking

the back and the elasticity of the thunder defense. I just think they're hitting all the right buttons, man. And shout's to Jay Kid for that. And yeah, they just seem like the much better team. They just, like, over the breadth of this series, the major fourth quarter comeback, notwithstanding, which I thought was incredible. They, Dallas has seemed like clearly the better team. When they tried it out the Kyrie, Tim Hardaway, Hardy three guards lineup, I was like, by the way. Oh, boy. Yeah. What are we doing there? But I'm glad you brought up Berwick Jones because I think he is the perfect test case for our guy theory, our guy scale. Because I don't know if he's a guy, but he might be a guy.

On the right night, he's a guy. I think so. On this team, he's certainly a guy because he's so complimentary to what your superstar player does, right? One, Luca and Shea effectively play the same position for their team. Like, they're the point guard, the alpha and the omega of the offense. But Luca can't go out and guard Shea. an entire game.

And so you need a Derek Jones Jr. Who can do that. And, you know, Luca's just this incredible passer and he's getting all these cuts, these alley-ups. And, you know, you just need a couple of games

when he makes three-threes in the playoffs, each series, right? You don't need him to, you know, basically stretch the hell out of the defense every single night. He doesn't need to be relied upon for that. But, man, those games that he does make a couple that the other team's not expecting,

it's just beautiful icing on the cake because he is the guy harassing Shea. And, like, believe it or not, he's keeping, you know, Shea from dropping 45. Like 32 is a dope game. But 45 is better. And we know Shea is completely capable of that because this man is incapable of missing mid-range jumpers.

When this dude has any freaking oxygen, daylight, or space, the thing is just cash every single time. And, you know, Shea is a superstar. He's proven at this playoffs. But I think Derek Jones Jr. is doing a good job of letting it not. get completely out of control in ways that say maybe like Rudy Colbert couldn't

last night. Yeah, do we do want to dip into the Rudy Gobert discourse at all? I mean, I told you not to absolve him after the first round but we can get into it after this. I didn't want to bring it up, but if you guys want to bring it that it, it was fine. No, there is a market difference between the kind of overall

scoring impact she is having as you're saying was which is great versus say what Jalen Brunson is doing and how unstoppable he has felt at some points against the Pacers and it is Derek Jones just making it as hard as humanly possible. And sometimes with Shea, that's still 30 on 22 shots. But you make it hard and you make him work for it.

And most importantly, you isolate the offense where the ball isn't flying around to open shooters all the time, right? It feels contained. It feels manageable. A great player is seeing multiple defenders in front of him at every juncture. And that's where Dallas is really thriving right now. Derek Jones has been an object of fascination for me for years. I think dating back to, I wrote about him in like 2016,

2017 and Summer League is like the prime example of the heat, like kind of building these guys out of nothing where it's like, you're a center, but you're built like a guard or you're a guard, but you're built like a center. That's sort of like ugly, delicious sort of Dr. Nick style of player from The Simpsons. It just seemed like he cycled through a lot of different teams that just couldn't mask like the deficiency he has while like highlighting what he does well, like the Mavs. Josh Hart kind of similar sort of thing where it's like this player is clearly a playoff grind. who if we just get him in the absolute right scenario, he could thrive and just feels like Dallas happened to be that for Derek Jones. Yeah. And for PJ Washington, I think too, both of those guys,

you don't want dribbling a lot. But within cuts and within second side attacks, they can be really dynamic. So I think it's great awareness in terms of who can play off of Luca and Kyrie and what kinds of skill sets at a distance may not seem that diverse or that interesting or that explosive. But when you put it next to, some of the best shot creators in the world,

all of a sudden, those guys really, really pop. Derek Jones Jr. With an arm for a leg and a leg for an arm. I thought Ugly Delicious was a little rude for the record. That's like a nice thing to say. Eric Jones Jr. is delicious, delicious to me. There you go. With Fandle, it's never too late to get in on the action

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See terms at sportsbook. Fandole.com. I want to flip to the other series? Let's do it. Zay been waiting. all night for this. Well, he is and isn't because we're talking before we came on here about how like, I think for both of us, it would really help our mental well-being if the Celtics could just have like a take no prisoners, just like convincing game just once. You know, the Cavs had basically

none of their players at this point to the point where like Craig Porter Jr. was getting a shout up for not being in this game because he probably would have played significant minutes. But, you know, Celtics had enough Al Horford looking to, after getting picked on left and right earlier in the series. Defense, I don't know what's going on with the Celtics, Rob, but, you know, they did enough and here we are going to the Eastern Conference finals again.

Yeah, I'm still waiting to be inspired in these playoffs. By the Celtics? Yeah. Look, I think, look, as again, the chief Celtics skeptic probably in all of NBA media. America, yeah.

I think outside of them smoking these guys by 25, a game. I think people would have been nitpicky of the performance considering where Cleveland is at talent-wise, right? They're in a tough spot. They're playing against a team that's playing hard. Like, these are NBA players. They're taking it seriously. Like, you can't just

beat everybody by 30. I don't expect that was. You know? I just think... Give me 15. Look, if Darius Garland had anything as a score in this game, I think Boston might have been in some actual trouble. That's not good. That's not great. For a team with Boston's

aspirations, that's not good. Down Karas Lever, down Donovan Mitchell, down Jared Allen, and they were really a couple of Darius Garland wayward finishes away from this being a really competitive game down the stretch. I expect more, frankly. I just expect more. 43, three point attempts in this game. Good fucking Lord, this team just is hunting for threes all the time.

And I know that's what they do. They made 19 of them, though. I know. They're great at it. It's just like the offense is just so. clear cut, you know, and it works, but it's never satisfying. And like, I, I, I almost want to stop myself from saying this, but like, this is kind of the other side of like the blueprint or the approach you would want to throw against Denver, right? Where it's like, oh, Minnesota threw

size at them. This didn't work. Well, what if we just barrage threes? Maybe this will work. And so there's like almost a two-track approach to even being competitive in a series with them. And so, like, on the one hand, this sucks. On the other hand, like, maybe they just hit enough threes and actually win a damn finals. But I guess this is where we are with them. Let's recent her for a second. We're coming in with a lot of negativity. I know.

It's crazy. The Celtics did win this game. And let's say it are going to the Eastern Conference finals for the sixth time in eight seasons. That is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It is actually genuinely LeBronesque. Incredible franchise level achievement.

And considering that the core guys have been. been here for that run, an incredible achievement for them as well. I don't want to gloss over any of that. And I think there were some positive things in this game. For example, Derek White, who I think had kind of an off series. Him starting to hit shots, I think is a great omen for them moving forward. Obviously, that wasn't always going to be the case. But you want to see more Boston's guys get kind of online, especially as long as Porzengis is out. They're going to need this core heavily because the Peyton Pritchard minutes aren't always going to be cute. You know, he threw a layup off the bottom of the rim in this game. I wasn't thrilled about it. That's right. But you're getting enough.

And the core guys have been good enough. And really, it underlines the central thing with the Celtics, which is everything we have said is fundamentally true. But even when they're not great, their baseline talent is still so high that they just kind of make their way through these games and win the vast majority of them. Best offense in NBA history. Right. It's such a weird tradeoff. So here's where I'm at with the Celtics. On the one hand, like, if you would have told me that a healthy New York Knicks against Boston in the playoffs

before the playoffs started would give the Celtics hell, I'd be like, guys, relax, like, you're smoking dope. On the other hand, bro, like, I'm at the point now where I'm like, bro, if the Knicks had all their guys, they would be freaking giving this team some goddamn, work. Like, period. On the other hand, the Knicks don't have all their guys.

The Celtics are clearly better than whatever comes out of that series. They're going to go to the NBA finals. And guess what? If Jamal Murray has a hamstring tweak or MPJ has a thing or Yokic gets an ankle or whatever, they're in prime position to win a championship.

Like, don't be given away our dinner reservation just like that. Oh, yeah. I don't even know why I'm going to. Also, if that happens, what you just said, is that the least satisfying championship in history? Why? Why does it have to be? Like, I don't understand this idea that championships have to happen against the most pristine opponent. You know, like, again, put it like this.

In 2016, Steph was coming off of a bum ankle or a bum leg or bum knee, whatever it was. I don't even remember. Nobody cares anymore. They lost. It's a history. historic championship for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Like, it is what it is. Like, I don't believe in this notion that your opponent has to have, like,

sterling, you know, injury luck in order for you to feel enthusiastic about the achievement. I don't believe that. No. If the Celtics get to the finals and somehow beat a team that is also there, I'm giving them all the credit because I don't believe in these cats. What would we do as podcast historians? You know, we're supposed to be the ones filling in the gaps. We're the watchdogs keeping track of history.

You know? Justin, you know what's sick? Yeah. Winning a championship. Yes. Being a hero in that city for the rest of your life. And also, Justin, do you think there's a single team left in the West bracket that the Celtics could steam roll? Like, just this idea that you're like, oh, it would be the sad.

It would be hard as hell for them to win the championship. And they would deserve the credit for achieving that. Yeah, I just want to show you my great. growth here because I could tell that's bait and I'm not going to take it. I'm not going to impugn another team. You think the Celtics could actually smoke any of the teams in the West? Like literally blow them out the water. You really think that?

I mean, I don't think any team is getting blown out at this stage of the postseason. No. Even we should say we talked about the full strength Knicks. The Knicks in their current form, if they advance out of that series, they're still going to be tough. Oh, yeah. It's going like six, probably. Yeah. That would be my guess.

But no, I'm with you. I'm not anti. They'm not arguing that they shouldn't win a title. No, I'm just saying like, for this Celtics team to win a championship, they're going to have to give a gargantuan effort, right? Like, this isn't going to be what Golden State with KD did to teams when they were fully healthy. It's not even going to be close to that, no matter who they play. So if they win, they're going to deserve their credit for winning, man.

Like, yeah. This shit won't be easy for these guys. I'm just imagining Justin running on the stage as they present the Celtics the trophy. I am Jack! No, I'll be dressed as a leprechaun. If I win that bet, you guys will be too. Oh, wow. No, I think the takeaway from this series with a step back is like need Christops.

And at the very least, it would have been nice to see Missoula play a lot. He did play a little bit with the lineups. unfortunately it was to add more size at time. We saw more Tillman, a lot of Cornette, but never going small in a way that I think would be advantageous as almost like a thing to put in your back pocket. It just seems like he really wants to stick to the plan in a way. And I would have liked to see a little bit more experimentation,

but maybe in the series that was way closer than it should have been at times. You didn't have the opportunity to do so. So I don't know. How small do you want them to go? I think you could put Hauser or whoever is hitting next to the four

minus the center, minus Al. Yeah, so then you're playing like Tatum or Brown at center effectively? I think Drew can do a lot. I think he can guard up on a lot of bigs and maybe that's irrational. That dude is a tank. Have some respect for Evan Mobley

on the night where he said his playoff career high and was just driving and putting Jason Tatum. Maybe not in the basket. but scoring around him with a lot of agility and a lot of capability. Scoring around him is funny. I was very impressed. You know, 33 on 24 shots for Evan Mowbly. And he also had that thing going on defensively where I would not recommend dribbling in his general vicinity.

They didn't want to come to the rack against him. Or even just kind of brush by him on the perimeter. He was poking all kinds of stuff loose. I thought he had a massive impact in this game. Well, can we circle back to the question we talked about last pot or two pods ago? I was on the fence of like Mowgli at the five full time. I'm kind of convinced at this point. I think you just go full bore, maybe get rid of Allen or whatever.

Maybe just like bring Allen off the bench if you have to. But like Mowgli at the five is unleashed in a way that, you know, he hasn't been up until this point. Just seeing the pick and rolls with him and Garland and the free runs to the rim that Evan Mowgli was getting by virtue of having shooters. You know, those are going to go away pretty fast when Jared Allen gets back out there too, which. It's a tough trade-off. I don't know what the great solution is if you're not making significant roster moves. There's only so much you can kind of strategize around

the spatial considerations that those guys present. But the shooters out there then. I mean, I think my question is, can that sustain over a regular season? It worked when it was Mitchell and Allen with shooters because Allen's a monster, and Mitchell is kind of a tank in his own regard for a backcourt player. can Garland and Mobley sustain as your point guard center combination

with three shooters who don't have the heft of like the nuggets two to four? I don't know. I do have one question as far as this game. Do you think Sam Merrill and Sam Hauser ever just lock eyes across the court and just have like a deep moment of spiritual understanding? Do you think it's like a hey, look at us? Let's like what me and Shrews do whenever I'm at a game. Back up, point guard.

and Max Struce. You just dish it. I thought he played pretty well. It's a great moment for, you know, the draft that we had in Indy for sure. There was certain moments where Cleveland was just had like four white guys hooping at one time. I was like, man, this is the playoffs. This is kind of insane. But I thoroughly enjoyed all of it.

So that's a good segue to the Cleveland Cavaliers off season because they might be playing a lot of those guys a lot of minutes next year. depending on how they navigate the next couple of months. There was an athletic story. Surprise, surprise, pretty much like an hour after the buzzer on this one. Someone had a really good tweet. I forgot who it was when Kendrick had a distract just ready when Drake dropped one. Be like, what is this, an athletic story after a team got eliminated, which I really appreciate it.

I think the big takeaway from that is it sounds like Mitchell might be on the fence about sticking in Cleveland if the extension, the four-year extension is put in front of him. I think we had been operating on the assumption and he was gone no matter what. We'll see. But I'm curious, was if you know these players better than anyone,

do you see that? Like him sticking in Cleveland, and if you were in his shoes, would you choose to go back to Cleveland and be the guy as opposed to some of these other options that don't seem as clear of a fit that maybe we would have expected like two years ago when we had this discussion?

So what's interesting, thing is that you saying like you feel like he's on the fence, I read the story, and it sounds like Cleveland is saying the dude's going to sign his extension. That's what it sounded like to us, because if they were actually worried, I think the tenor of that Shams piece would be, yo, he has a deadline to sign his deal, and when he doesn't, we're shopping his ass. And that was not the tenor of the story. It's like, dude is probably coming back. And to me, that feels like a little bit of a Paul George

and OKC sort of wink-wink situation, whereas, look, I'll sign the deal, the extension, whatever you want to call it. And if this thing happens to go off the rails in any way, we'll work together to get me out of there, which is what ended up happening with OKC where, you know, everybody was just shocked

that Paul George signed back with OKC if he spent like four years before that letting everybody know publicly and privately that he wanted to be in L.L. And then ultimately, he stayed in the next year. They moved them to the Clippers. Everybody was happy, right? That's what that feels like is happening to me

with this Donovan Mitchell News. What I found most interesting was just the collaboration on the part of CAA and Clutch on this story where, you know, Darius Garland is like, look, man, like the way this roster is constructed doesn't work for my career. I'm not being optimized here. We need to get me out of here.

and Donovan Mitchell being like, look, I'm happy to stay, get us a new coach. Like, you know, it's cool. Like, everything is going to be fine in the future. I enjoyed that aspect of it. Allegedly. Allegedly according to sources. Yes. Do they need either of those guys if they have Marcus Morris, is my question.

Roz, he rose from the dead tonight. That was just, that was just nuts. the amount of ISOs that guy was getting post-ups. It was like 2018 again, kind of nuts. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. It sounds like, then people have been kind of whispering this that, like, Mitchell's going to end up staying and Garland will probably be the guy that gets moved,

which I think is interesting, too. Like, what kind of package do you even accept for Garland at this point? Are you looking for guys that could come in and help Mitchell for his quote-champions aspirations over there. Are you looking for picks as your compensation? I'm interested to see what direction they even take, take that. But I think it's clear that the main pieces don't feel like they complement and work together

in an optimal way. And they should be making changes. I kind of agree with the idea that they should try to switch up this nucleus. Yeah, I thought the combination of Garland and Mitchell, when Mitchell first got traded there, that between them they would have enough playmaking to make it work, and most importantly, that off ball they could both be good enough shooters to make it work.

The Cavs offense isn't really structured for them to do that, for them to do a lot of movement shooting. And I think what's been disappointing from the playmaking perspective is Garland is better for guys like Mobley in a lot of ways as a setup passer. But Mitchell is so clearly far in a way their best attacker to the point where he has put them on his back in these playoffs

and taken them as far as he possibly could before his body shut down. And so what do you do with that? Because it's very clear that Garland alone does not take you anywhere, anywhere meaningful anyway. For the most part, had a pretty disappointing playoffs on top of a pretty middling season,

and especially in this series, had lots of opportunities and lots of space against the drop and wasn't really able to make a lot happen in terms of generating his own offense. And if you don't have that, you need Mitchell desperately. And so I don't know how you resolve that kind of inherent conflict between them. It does feel like two different paths, right?

It feels like almost Mitchell and Allen are a twosome that works. And Garland and Mobley are a twosom that works. But if you had a choice, you'd probably take Mitchell over Garland if he wants to stick around. But to Waz's point, like if you're on the Mitchell track, are you accelerating things and doing things to take advantage of the now in a way that maybe won't feel right for some other players, Mobili, in particular? particular. So it gets more naughty with Mitchell, but I agree. Like, if he wants to stay, like, he should be your guy because Garland just, like, he hasn't felt right to me there. And I feel like

he kind of needs to change his scenery. Here's the thing, too, is one, I want to give props to Donovan Mitchell, because I was really critical of him after that Nick series last year, where he just completely shot the bed. There's just no two ways about it. He came out and had an excellent regular season when Garland and Mowgli went down, the Cavs ripped off that amazing string of wins where he looked particularly awesome and the offense made sense for the first time

since he's gotten there. And he was really good in the playoffs this year. Both rounds. He showed that he probably was like a little dinged up last year and there was no oxygen within that offense for him to do anything and he improved upon that. But to me, it's like, if you're the Cavs organization, are you satisfied basically building what Utah once have had by the lake? Is that what we're headed towards it?

And make no mistake. They had number one offenses. They had number one seeds in the Western Conference. Like, they achieved some nice things. But like, is that what you want to pursue? Just for the sake of accuracy, Utah also by the lake. Fair. Just want to clear that up.

Yeah. Here's an idea I have because we're at that portion of the podcast. Would you challenge trade? You'd have to figure out the math. But I'm just saying like player for player. Is this like the kind of deep bong rip idea? Like are we really cranking it up now? Is that what's happening?

No, but I have those two whenever you'd like. Who says no, Franz for Garland? Magic say no. Yes. I think so too, because he's too, like, instrumental to, like, their size over everything sort of thing. Garland makes them extremely traditional in a way that I don't think they want to be. I agree. Okay.

But I do think they're in comparable classes as prospects. Garland is better now, but ultimately they're in a similar enough bucket that I get how you got there. You want the Bongripp idea now? Yeah, let's do it. You trade Mitchell back to Utah for just the pick. Just undo. You keep the players. Yeah, and you hit undo on everything else.

And why does Utah want to do this? It just seems like they want to get frisky. They're kind of in that weird in-between zone where whenever they want to decide to be good, you got Lowry, you got some other guys who are playing pretty well. They seem pretty patient over there. Also true.

I think the thing about Mitchell, I agree with the general parameters we're talking about if that's what it is. If you give him the extension now and he's down to stick around for a little while and see how things play out. And then ultimately, if a trade needs to be worked out, try to accommodate everybody,

you just want to get your Shay in that Paul George trade, right? Like, you need to get a player who's really going to be able to be a co-anchor of your team in return. And I think what's good about where the calves are is Evan Mowley is still young enough that another young guy coming in in two seasons is still going to make sense with him. I don't know where that leads Garland.

I don't know where that leaves Allen. And I'd say that they couldn't be a part of that timeline. Clearly, they're in the same age brackets. Like, these aren't radically different generations of players. But ultimately, the future of this team might be whatever you get in a Donovan Mitchell trade three years from now or two years from now plus some of these remaining pieces. That could be where the calves end up. So I think the problem for the calves and Donovan Mitchell is that, one, he sees himself as a one guy,

like a main guy, like a number one option kind of guy. Did these playoffs make you reconsider that at all? Because I think I moved a little bit towards maybe. If he's a one, he's a C plus level one. Okay. Which to me, C plus, C plus. And I think the problem is that

that dude just dropped 50 in a playoff game, average 30 for basically the entire playoffs on ridiculous shooting. 50 and they lost. That is not his fault. I'm sorry, that is not his fault. But like, I don't feel like when Donovan Mitchell gets rolling, does it feel like how it feels when Jalen Brunson gets rolling? No.

It feels like whenever he's rolling, it's happening in a vacuum. And that's what I mean. It's like if he were better at doing the number two option kind of stuff, i.e. cutting, i.e. movement. I.e. just being a more complimentary guy and being like, the only time I can be effective at all for my team is when I'm dominating possession. Like, he's not horrible at it. He's obviously good at it.

But I'm like, what is the ultimate, like, what is the ceiling of that? But if he's not of Mitchell doing that for your team. If he can't play with a guy who also gets to use the ball. It's the classic star thing. Like, we used to do this all the time in like 2008. Is he dominating the ball because he has to? Or is he dominating the ball because he wants to play like that? I think it's a little of both.

But I think if you trade Mitchell and Brunson's situations, and Brunson is surrounded by, and I say this with all due respect, Isaac O'Coro and this version of Max Drus, and Marcus Morris and George Nyang, and Donovan Mitchell is surrounded by Josh Hart, and Dante DiVincenzo, and DeVincenzo, and DeVinstein, I think the reality of those playmaking situations is totally different.

Who gets Sam Meryl, though? I don't know who gets him yet. Still fighting over custody of Sam Merrill. But I do think Mitchell could, ultimately my point is this. I don't think Donovan Mitchell is a great primary driver of offense. He's clearly not the exact superstar you want if you want to go deep in the playoffs.

My only thought is if everything were just so and he had the perfect construction around him, maybe he could be good enough. Like maybe he's at the very bottom of that list, but maybe he could be good enough. That's actually, I wanted to talk this through, though, because if he decides to hit eject, he probably will dictate where he goes to a certain extent,

at the very least, unless a team like the Thunder with Paul George comes in and just decides, oh, fuck it, we'll try it for a year and see what happens. I have these separated into a couple tiers here, where you have the big market dogs, you have the Lakers and the heat, and I throw the Knicks in there,

although it doesn't seem like that's a clear fit anymore, but let's just throw them in there. Then you have like the big market, but he gets to be the guy. And I have the nets who are constantly rumored to be linked to him, but also the Rockets.

I think that one could be kind of interesting. I have the little dogs. So you have teams like the Pelicans. Maybe the Raptors get feisty and they're like, eh, you know, maybe let's take a leap.

Uh, and then the dark horses, warriors, magic, and then my bong rip jazz idea. See, I don't hate Donovan Mitchell, Zion and all of the wings out there.

Like that's, that's a, company, I know they would still need to resolve their front court and figure out how big they're supposed to play and with whom? Because clearly... Yeah. I mean, look, the financial considerations are what they are. All of which is to say, I just think there could be a lot of interesting basketball situations for Donovan Mitchell out there. And they don't always have to be super conventional.

I think the rockets could be really interesting. As like, you just take the thrust you had with McHale Bridges at the deadline and just like divert to someone with a little bit more... And Jaylene Green is the Shay Gilges Alexander of the deal? Yeah, I mean, that's the big question. Like, how much has Green vaulted in your estimation that he's no longer just the throwing young sweetener? He's like a guy that like, if we keep them, maybe we build things around. I don't know.

I got to say if I'm the Rockets and I'm watching what Aunt Edwards is doing in the playoffs, I want to believe that Jalen Green can someday be 75% of that. Yeah. The best thing that can ever happen to you is someone who is vaguely reminiscent of becoming wildly successful. And just banking on the idea that like, yo, what if Jaling Green figures it out? With his physical gifts, man,

like he could really be a difference maker if that becomes the case on defense, on offense. And so I'm still pretty high on Jalen Green. You know what I mean? He might already be everything that you're saying. If he is the player that we saw towards the end of the season, that guy is already there. But, you know, Tillman Fretta has been wanting to do, have a serious basketball team for a while.

And getting Donovan Mitchell in there would automatically vault them into that conversation of respectability and like real deal playoff contention and not just nibbling at the edges of the playing. Right. So I think that's a fascinating idea for Donovan Mitchell move. Well, why don't we flip now? Because I wanted to get into some draft lottery ripple effects. We missed the draft lottery because we were. recorded Saturday night. I'll be honest.

I missed the draft lottery because the timing was so weird. It was on a Sunday, like before the game started, and I just didn't watch it. I have to say, I fucking love the draft lottery. Like, it's just one of the dumbest things that we do is a sports culture, sports watching culture. And to miss the ping pong balls for the first time in a very long time, I was pretty disappointed. Can we get you in the room next year? Oh, that would be incredible. I would say something I probably shouldn't at an opportune moment.

I would love that and I would love you to come report back about it so I think we might need to make that happen. Do I bring my own tricket? Zach low level. He can't get into the lottery room. Are you shitting me? They're letting more just

like schmows and Joe's and these things like. I don't know if it's Shmows and Joe's. Usually it's representatives covering the teams that have high potential picks. So there's B-Writers of a bunch of teams involved. The Memphis Grizzly B-rider

or Schmo and Joe? Excuse me. Justin Verrier from the bringer NBA shows group shy here. Yeah. Are you the guy who was asking how your ass tasted? Was that you? Right.

With Denver, like, it's Calvin Booth in the lottery room. But I have down here, because this is a real wacky lottery. I have to say, it was a real, like, a bit of medicine for any tanking team that wants to go down this path, especially the fucking cough-cuff-cove Detroit Pistons. Good Lord. Losing 40 games in a row and ended up with the number five pick, that is, that's an death's tough. Oh, my God.

It's like a PSA. In a bad draft or what people are saying, quote, unquote, is a bad draft. Yeah. That's the don't drink and drive PSA for your brain on tanking. It's the Detroit Pistons. Exactly. Well, I did have the rockets down here as well just because they vaulted into the number three spot. how many fucking young guys

can this team actually roster at this point? Because they already threw a bunch of low level first round picks overboard. And I wonder Rob, like, so the Donovan Mitchell approach

is one idea. If they can't get that, would you revisit the McKill Bridges idea that they had over the trade down line? Maybe just like scale back on the picks.

It's more like Jalen Green and maybe this pick. Is that interesting to you at all? Oh, I mean, if it's scaled down in that way, I'm interested. I think where I get hesitant

is if we're putting in the whole farm for McHale Bridges, a player who I like very much, but I'm not giving up any real estate for it. No farms involved in that transaction. So if it is just Jalen Green and A-Pick or reasonable draft consideration, yeah, I would love that for the Rockets. Yeah, I mean, if you're the Nets, it's like, you guys know now definitively that little stretch

that McHale Bridges had at the end of the season where you traded for him was Poppycock. and he's actually just a superstar role player and not some, you know, offense-carrying star type of guy. And then you take, again, Jalen Green, you take a shot at his potential to be a bona fide actual star.

I like it if I'm the Nets. And I get another young guy in the process as a team that's been depleted of picks and I'm, you know, I'm handing guys top four picks because of terrible trades that I've made. to me, the Nets should be listening to that kind of thing. If the future of my team as the Rockets is Shangoon, Mikhail Bridges, Amman Thompson,

I'm starting to see the shape of something that can really work. And that's to say nothing of Fred Van Vleet and the other really good players together now. Come on now. Look, I don't want to omit Jabari Smith in there. I think obviously had a great end to the season especially. That's something you could be really excited about. And that's the thing about Jalen Green ultimately. A guy like Bridges, you can imagine the fit a little a little bad.

and understand how he could mesh with all these other pieces that they have. There's always going to be questions with Jalen Green as to the, I say the basketball strategic tension between him and Shangun, between him and Jabari Smith, even at times between him and other guards like I'm in Thompson or Fred Van Fleet.

Jalen Green is a guy who needs the ball to cook. And if you have the capacity to do that and boy, do the Nets have it, I think it could be a great fit. If Cam Thomas is cool with it. Yes. I think if you believe that Shen, is your your focal point is a superstar in the making,

then I think you make that trade. And I think- Superstar in the making? I mean, if you ask the ringer staff, like- Might as well put him on a statue out there, just like one of those mini statues. Have we decided if he's a center or power forward yet?

Well, that's a really good question because they did trade for Stephen Adams who's going to be around next year. And maybe that was just for the contract, but it seemed like they had designs of like at the very least rotating him in to provide, what Shangun is lacking. Maybe so.

I don't see those guys playing together very often. Not together, but at the very least, like, they're going to use them. I agree with you guys. I honestly think that Green has the home run super star potential that Shangun probably lacks. And so, like, do you just kind of go for a triple, I guess, in McHale Bridges and just make the most of your team? It seems like they just love that idea of just being competitive and as competitive as possible and hoping that EMA can just like yell at them enough and they'll just play good defense. and all of a sudden they'll go above their win expectation.

I just want to acknowledge that that's a hard call to make. These guys who do have home run potential. And Justin, as you know, us at the ringer.com have been working on an exercise of considering the future potential of some of the young players in the league. And Jalen Green is so... I got that email. That's right. Did you?

Was is writing blurbs for this one. Can't wait. But Jalen Green is so tantalizing in that way. You can talk yourself into those futures and those possibilities in a way that you never, ever would with McHale Bridges or any number of even very good young players. And so do you give up on that home run possibility, slim as it may be? It's a tough thing to do, especially when we know that general managers are famously risk averse. And the thing that they fear most in a lot of ways is trading the guy who blows up and having to see that guy several times a season and live with the regret of that exact move. But question though, is it possible that the Rockets core will run into the same problems that we're talking about Giddy and OKC's core having?

Right? Like, is it possible that Amin Thompson, Jalen Green, Shangoon, and Jabari Smith aren't a perfect for some that you close playoff games with? And maybe you get rid of one of those guys for somebody who might not have the talent, quote unquote, upside. but beautifully slots in to compliment and elevate everything else that those guys are able to do. I think that's really the question, you know. And I don't know that Amend Thompson and Shangoon and, you know, Jalen Green are like this immaculate fit. It's not perfect. And if we're talking about the giddy comparison, those questions are going to be asked about Amman Thompson.

And he is an, like a 99th percentile athlete who can do amazing. things in space and make himself useful in ways that Josh Giddy will never ever be able to do. Can he ever shoot as good as Lou Dort though? Can any of us? That feels like impossible at this point. Which is crazy to say. It's very early.

It's very early on a men Thompson. But I think the larger point is this, all of the tough questions that teams like, okay, so you have faced and are facing because they have been competitive for long enough, we just don't know with the Rockets yet. They're still very young in the process of trying to win games. And so

we don't really know how all that's going to fit. I do know, though, that if McHale Bridges were a part of it, some of those questions would be a little easier to answer. Yeah. Do you take the bird in the hand with Bridges because he is ostensibly available in this fictional version of the NBA that we've created for ourselves? I would probably wait for Mitchell or someone like that

to actually do something, but who knows that will come. Let's talk about Elena, who got the number one pick, vaulted 90 spots, and all of a sudden, they're picking first in what might be the worst draft in a decade. What do we know? I don't think that we can say that. I think we should choose to be very optimistic about this draft. I think that's what this podcast should do.

I watched four to five games in the NCAA tournament. I'm a fucking expert at this point. You want to talk about Stefan Castle man? I don't. Not yet. But I appreciate you asking. He can't shoot. So that's a problem.

But does this change anything? Was with what the Hawks are doing? Why? Because they're about to draft a legendary role player. Like, I don't know why this should change any of their calculation. Like, unless they thought that there was a guy in this draft who plays the two or plays the one and has the potential to be elite at it someday, I don't know why their approach this offseason should be any different. I think they should take the kid that they think is the best, obviously. and now you have that in your back pocket as far as your rebuilding efforts

and I still think they should be trying like hell to move Trey Young. Hell yeah. Absolutely. I don't think anything should be changing because they got the number one pick in this draft. They are in that net spot though where their picks are going to be flying out the door.

And so the prospect of, you know, taking Alex R, for example, taking the young guys you have on the roster and liquidating Tray Young and Dejante Murray and then you just give up your first round pick to San Antonio next year that doesn't feel great

and so I think this maybe allows them to have their cake and eat it too in a sense where maybe you trade one of Young and Murray if that's what you're inclined to do but you don't have to bottom out you have a nice prospect walking in the door you have some good young players already like Jalen Johnson

kind of roll the dice a little bit kick the can down the road see what other young guys or picks you can get in the door. But there just isn't a lot of motivation for the Hawks to be bad. And so I suspect what's going to happen as often happens is that they just kind of muddle along in a half-formed version of themselves until they're forced to ultimately collapse. Yeah.

They're a prime candidate to become another blood boy team like the Nets are now, where another team has my future, but I'm actually siphing off another team's future for my new future, right? Wow. And so, like, if you have the magic space, picks or whomever you can get or the Lakers picks, that all of a sudden becomes your future because I think you guys are right. I think just picking one of Murray and Young at the very least clarifies things in a way that right now is just completely at odds. God forbid, like they actually

Trey went out and got a different agent because Murray is also a clutch guy. So like there's very much a Capulets Montague thing that's kind of coming to a collision here. And so I wonder if you could be okay. Honestly, are they that much worse? let's say they have this number one pick just Murray and then whatever they get from this trade probably about the same next year and then you just go from there I think that might be their best path not a lot of best paths for them I don't think yeah I love Jalen Johnson though by the way love Jalen Johnson and by the way I don't I think even if they were honestly if there was some Derek and you know what that's a lie if there was a Derek Rose type of prospect or you know

all these guys from the past that we were just so excited. excited about and they played the position of the one of these two guys. I think it would clarify things and it'd be like, yeah, one of these guys has to go immediately make room for this generational prospect. I guess, yeah, if they did have something like that sitting for them at number one, it'd be a totally different conversation, but they don't. So they could just carry on business as usual with, you know, tiggering with the trade machine as if they were Justin Vary.

Keep calm and blood boy on. Yeah. Not even a laugh. I'm not even a curse. You've won out all your goodwill in this podcast. It's late. It's the word of hour into the podcast. Just last one briefly because San Antonio ends up with two top 10 picks

because San Antonio clearly hasn't had enough luck over the past year or two. So they're at four and eight now because the Raptors tank their goddamn heart out and get nothing. and I actually appreciate that because that's what you deserve. But the Spurs, you doing anything with this? Are you saying Wembe could probably be in the MVP conversation next year, go get a guy with these two picks, or are you slow playing this? I'm slow playing this. What do you think, Was?

What's the rush? Yeah. And also, look, Wembe's going to be really freaking good next year. He's not, they're not going to fall into contention with the guys around here. and I don't know that like some major trade makes them some big contender either. I think they need to be trying to make a well-rounded deep roster. And now that they know what they have and maybe getting some guys that might be complimentary of what this future superstar is going to be doing for you.

Like to me, that's the play there. Get some young blood in there. Get some talent in there. Don't be so thirsty to like get a bunch of veterans in there that is going to you know, take a bunch of shots and act like they're big dogs. Especially when you think about the Spurs roster outside of Wembe,

how many guys on their roster currently are you super confident will be on the roster in two years or you would feel great about them being on the roster in two years? I think that's the question. And so for me, what I'm doing in that situation

is I'm using both picks and taking two pretty good swings with lottery talent and maybe one of them works and one of them doesn't. Maybe they're both kind of underwhelming because the whole draft class is overwhelming. But you're giving yourself two shots at young players who could be a fit for your roster.

And as was kind of alluded to, moving toward a model that's a little more depth-based and a little closer to, say, what the Thunder have rolling, where they have a lot of options, a lot of young talent. And you worry about everything else later. But let's get a generation of guys going here in San Antonio because right now everything's a little disjointed. Yeah. If you were more convinced that you had a rock solid.

solid core that you just needed another star to play next to Wembe and all of a sudden you're rolling, then it makes sense. But it's just like Vessel and Sohan Johnson. I mean, I like Vassel. Champany, Jetty Osmond. Is Charles Bassi still there? He is, but I believe he's still hurt. Stuff for him. Yeah, it just, it seems a little too soon. Just a sick core. Yeah. But you're right. I mean, look at the teams that are excelling in these playoffs. A lot of depth, a lot of young guys. And as the kind of complications of the new CBA come in,

you're probably going to see teams moving off of guys. They maybe shouldn't because they're worried about some of those punitive taxes. So if you have like a second generation coming in behind him, I wonder if we're going to start seeing more feeder systems where it's like, oh, we have to pay Dord again. Actually, let's not because we have Wallace ready to maybe slot in and start. Try to go find your Jaden McDaniels, right? try to go find your J-dub.

Try to go find these guys. Try to go find your Isaiah Joe. Some damn shooting around Wembe. Like, try to go find these guys for your prize piece. That's, to me, getting two cracks at it. You know, show off that legendary alleged spurs scouting that they're so damn good at it. Player development.

Show that shit off and find two guys to bring around this dude. Allegedly about a franchise. that it's just had like some of the most home run second round picks we've ever seen. But yeah, I'll let you leave it again. Do it in this, do it in this millennium. Do it again. Then make another dynasty.

Do it in this decade. Give me a break. Do it with the number one pick. And then do it with another number one pick. Then do it with another number one pick. Let me a break. All right. Let's,

let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to steady Eddie Ocampo for jumping back in here. Hell yeah. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Saturday. Keep watching us on YouTube. Keep listening to us on all your favorite podcast players, hopefully Spotify.

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