The Ringer NBA Show - Mailbag: Ja Morant and the Grizzlies, Best Player in a Bad Situation, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos open up the mailbag and answer some listener questions about Ja Morant and the Grizzlies, best League Pass teams, player fashion, best players in bad situations, and more. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Galaxy Lights, Coachella, Lightning Bolt Necklaces. 20203 was the year of Scandival. On March 3rd, one cheating scandal launched a reality TV investigation that generated hundreds of conspiracy theories, thousands of podcast episodes, and millions of dollars in revenue. I'm Jody Walker, host of an American Scandival. One retrospective story told in three salacious parts. Listen, December 26th on the Ringer Reality Feast. feed.

Hello and welcome to group chat. I'm Justin Verrier and joining me a couple of dogs. Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. Rob, welcome back from your trip to the forest. Is that where you were? Yeah, it was just communing with nature. Just really trying to get in touch with the real world. You know, touching some grass, touching some trees.

Honestly, staying in a pretty bougie cabin. So I was doing none of those things. But it was a nice little getaway. Is that qualifies glamping? No, I think it was a step above glamping. This is actually a point of discussion. Like, where is the line between Glamp and Cabin? Somebody got to get Ted Kaczynski on the phone to be decided on that one.

He seemed to have been an expert on that joint. But you guys had restrooms and running water? Oh, yes. Yeah. It was a glorified house just in the woods. Yeah, y'all wasn't camping. Y'all wasn't serious. No.

Yeah, I think that's just being in a house. You know? I think it's like a step actually below a hotel. You're in the Airbnb range. The level of carcacity is so low on that one, just like, come on now. Be serious. You got to sleep on the floor in the mud, Rob. You know, you got to use forage for, you know, certain type of uses.

Like, come on, you got to light a fire to make your food. Like, actually start the fire with wood and all of that, make coals out of it. Come on now. You got indoor plumbing. You did not go camping. I'm sorry. You're saying I got to get my caucasity up. Up.

Oh, yeah. Really? Come on now. I would think, you know, what could have more caucasity than pretending you're in nature, but building a house around it in which you have all of,

you know, all the comforts of home? You know what? You're right about that. That is coastal elite carcacity. That's a different category of it. And which, you know obviously the three of us are very familiar with that's how we do it i was going to ask

where is your level of of camping i guess caucasity was like are you are you a camper i'm not doing it no just we just know about it it's it's not happening yeah of course um you know you talk to your homies about like oh what are you guys doing this weekend oh we're gonna go camping we're trying to get out the city for a few days and blah blah blah blah and it's just like wait So like your idea of relaxing is not a soft bed that's warm and, you know, the creature comforts that make us feel like good every single day. Your idea of relaxing is making yourself uncomfortable just for the fuck of it. Okay. It's cook.

You know, go ahead with that. I'm chilling though. We're launching the Kickstarter today. We got to get waz on with like bare grills on some kind of extreme adventure out in the wilderness where they have a very, very, charming heart to heart in the middle of their hike or whatever. I need to see Waz's soul exposed out in the world, out in the natural world. I will say every time they do the breakouts, you have this beautiful Christmas setting behind you with the tree and it's not just like bulbs and whatnot. There's like

flowers and whatnot. So you are probably more in touch to nature than than either of us. Yeah, guys, I can't take credit for this wonderful tree that you can see back here. Yes, it is natural. It's not one of those fake things that you buy and you stick into your closet every single year. But yeah, my lady got it. She decorated it. I don't think she's quite done with it yet because

she seems to be constantly tinkering with it. But yeah, man, this is real stuff. We do real things over here, man. It's reflecting off the mirror. It's just a beautiful setting. I just marvel every time we do these podcasts. I'm trying my best here, guys. All right. So today's

docket. We have a special mail bag that we thank you, all of you lovely listeners for sending us emails to a new email address that Rob set up for us. Which, Rob, I got to ask just briefly. You're welcome, by the way. Why did we switch emails? Well, our previous email address, which will not be mentioned on this podcast to avoid confusion, was linked to a bit and a sponsored segment that no longer exists.

Ah, yes. I think we can't sell that again? Maybe we can, but I just wanted to broaden out the scope of the emails we're able to receive. So all season long, please hit us up at ringergroup chat at gmil.com. Send in your questions. Send in your comments. Send in what you think of Wasz's Christmas tree and where you think the finishing touches could be. Rather than limit ourselves to one bit that, you know what?

We're not beholden to anybody. We don't have to sell ourselves anymore, Justin. We're here for us. Wow, that got increasingly passionate. I love that. But I have to say, I was struck by how global the emails were. I noted that we have one from London, one from Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, Germany, Australia. Wow, this is an international operation for sure.

Yeah, I mean, our game is global. And obviously, it makes sense that one of the top five podcasts and NBA going today would also be a global podcast. I'm not surprised by any of this. That's right. We need to set up satellite podcasts in different areas to grow the podcast audience. Maybe get a group chat, Africa going. Let's go. Mold the youth into shit talkers about the NBA. It's good stuff. Well, I want to start with this first email from Emma.

This is topical because Emma seems to be a Grizzlies fan, even though she lives in London. Her response is the Gris used to be my league pass team, but I'd rather they not be now. so who should I start watching more on a regular basis? And I have to say, since we're coming off of recording this John Morant's debut game, I have to say maybe it's a bad time. Yeah, a bad time to be leaving the bandwagon there because I have to say, Rob,

Jawa's electric last night and just reminded everyone, like how actually good he could be. Absolutely. I mean, he just gives them a totally different kind of explosive potential that they've obviously been missing because not only is your offense going to be better with a player like Jha, but you can actually make comebacks.

You can actually go on runs. You can actually be not just competitive, but aggressive and push other teams in these games. So, you know, spinning right through Herb Jones for a game winner, like that's the kind of shit only Jock can do on that team. So needless to say, they're happy to have him back, and he's going to change so much about what they do

from Desmond Bain on down. Like, he just makes everybody's life so much easier there. And I assume we'll make Emma's life much better in terms of actually watching this team on a daily basis. Now that Ben Simmons has retired, Zion Williamson has probably become the poster boy, whipping boy, of this show, or at least for me, but it's just crazy watching these two guys juxtapose against one another

because, of course, Zion comes into this season, having had his first ever alleged professional training regiment in the summer and seeing him look lethargic at times throughout the season in John Morant. This is 25 freaking games. He comes back and he looks like he's barely breaking a sweat out there, making game winners, dropping 34, getting to the basket with reckless abandon, just completely unstoppable, looked as explosive as ever. And yeah, man, it brings you back to why everybody was so disappointed by his behavior,

because so many people, both fans and executives in the league offices, and at Nike headquarters, quite frankly, had pegged this guy to be the next sort of, you know, standard bearer of the league. You know, he's going to grab the proverbial torch and run with it. And last night reminded you why everybody, you know, was so disappointed of the direction he was going because he means so much to the game. And his game is so captivating.

So, yeah, man, it was dope to see Jha do that last night. Yeah, I thought it was pretty instructive that after the game, after he won the game at the buzzer. He was pretty much being upfront that he didn't want the final play, but he almost couldn't help himself but to finish that game for the Grizzlies, it's a complete opposite

of Zion where it's like you have to just really rouse him in order to have that sort of effect. So great to have Jah back. I mean, we should probably ask, Rob, do you believe in the Grizzlies now? Did you see with Jha a path forward to at least be back into the playing sort

of mix? Well, they're closer than you think in terms of getting into the play-in group. I think the question for them is going to be overcoming the warriors who have shown some signs of life lately. It's not just a matter of games back, but competition. But it really does look like it's going to be about a 12-team race for the playoffs. I can't imagine the jazz are really competitive there in the grand scheme of things. So I think the answer is why not? You know, if some of these other teams who are in the playing bracket or near enough right now get an injury at the wrong time, have their key players out for any significant stretch like the Grizzlies had Job Miranda out for a significant stretch.

Things can change pretty quickly. So I wouldn't be shocked to see them climb into 10th place, climb into 9th. I think they have that in them. We've seen when they have even a remotely healthy roster. They can be a regular season jug or not. And the defense has been good enough all season to give them something to work with here, supposing that Jah can be this kind of daily force. I'm with you, I was really impressive debut to come back with that kind of energy,

that kind of flow, that kind of feel that Jha did. but some of the rigors of the NBA season are what happens when it's stacking weeks on weeks on weeks when it's long long road trips it may still take him some time to get his legs under him for that reason and if Memphis can steal some of those games

in the meantime I think they could end up with a pretty respectable win total honestly yeah so right now the play in mix is the Pelicans the Lakers the Rockets the Suns the Warriors and the Grizzlies and also the Jazz who are currently ahead of the Grizzlies outside of that mix so one of those four teams Pelicans Lakers Rocket Suns might not make it in there.

Maybe even two of them if the Warriors ever get their shit together and Jemond Green comes back. So it's going to be a pretty fun down the stretch race here. But I do want to kind of answer Emma's question if she does want to give up on the gris and gravitate toward another fan base. So I kind of want to do like a re-ranking of the best league pass teams here, at least the top upper crust there, was what's at the top right now? What is it? A third of the way through the season of your league pass rankings.

As I assume all of us, maybe the Thunder? I mean, the Thunder actually is funny, man. Obviously, I've been waving to Chet Flagg and Chet We Trust. You know, Chet again look crazy against the Nuggets. I mean, I don't know how you can. I guess Shayette Gilgis Alexander gave him a step stool for the nine blocks, according to Michael Pina. But that's neither here nor there.

You wasn't here for that craziness, Rob. I got to catch up on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Pina was he was denigrating the exploits of Chet, Holmgren saying, oh, he's the beneficiary of whatever, whatever. I'm not going to, you know, they go low, I go high. So as much as I love the thunder and they're very high on my league pass list, my number one is the Timberwolves.

Just because for me personally, I just love the way that they get after it on defense. I love the cohesion of that unit across lineups, by the way. their big man rotation fascinates me endlessly, obviously, because they're paying all three of these guys, but they're all freaking delivering this year. So it's nice to watch. And of course, obviously, man, Anthony Edwards and just what he's able to do on a night-to-night base, and how he can surprise and do these eye-popping, jaw-dropping plays night-to-night, even when he's only going, you know, seven of 18, he's doing something subtle that I'm just like, wow.

or he's, you know, he's reading the defenses for passes and playmaking. And I'm like, oh, okay, he's stacking stuff on top of his already impressive, offensive game. So night to night, once I see the Timberwolves are on, that's coming on. That's number one for me. With a bullet kind of. Yeah, they're kind of a perfect league pass team because you have a rock solid foundation with their defense, which having seen them in person recently, is really something to behold. They are smothering, and it's not just Rudy Gobert and Jane McDaniel.

It was like, Nikiel Alexander Walker is having an amazing defensive season. Kyle Anderson is wreaking havoc out there. They're just enormous defensively and put a lot of pressure on you. So they have that going for them. And that's going to keep them in pretty much every game. And then you have Edwards, as you're saying, was who's going to do something basically every night that's unbelievable that catches you by surprise, that even when you're watching them time after time after time, he's going to deliver in fun and interesting ways.

And I'm also kind of loving the season that Kat is having, to be honest. honest with you. He's really found like a nice little niche in terms of attacking from the three point line and also kind of attacking into the elbow area and finding some good kind of like longer postups from that range or little turnarounds from that range that have been working. I think there's a lot to like with the wolves. I guess the only question is as far as adopting a new team, are they too good? Can you adopt the number one team in the West standings? I just wish with Kat, whenever he is having complimentary quotes about Anthony Edwards. We just had a picture and picture

where we could see his fingernails just like digging into his thigh or like him just like gritting his teeth in between it. He is saying all the right things. Anthony Edwards is the guy, yada, yada, yada. But you know deep down, that shit burns. This is big time projection. This is anytime anyone asked Justin about us

what happens, was. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Here's where I will come to Justin's defense because our guy, John Cresenski, He wrote a great story, you know, centered around Kat and his relationship with AD. And how the tweet came out was essentially Carl Anthony Towns gets along way better with Aunt Edwards than he did Jimmy Butler. And I'm like, that's damning with Faye Braves if I've ever seen it, dude. Yeah, but Kat is playing the good soldier so far.

It is working. But I think that's a good question to ask. Are the, all the wolf's too good to be qualified as a league pass team? because these are typically the more intriguing teams that teams that are still kind of figuring their shit out. So, Rob, who do you have at the top of your re-ranking? I mean, I think the Pacers are still there, and they're low enough in the standings that I think you can,

there's still room on the bandwagon. They're still accepting newcomers. They're still selling seats. And honestly, maybe the Timberwolves are in that group, too, just because they've been such a long-suffering franchise, they'll take all the support they can get at this point. But the Pacers are on the up and up. They're really fun to watch on an Ily Bay.

basis. And right now, if anything, this is a time to buy low, right? They've dropped four straight games. They've had, they've been missing guys for most of those games. But I think they're a team that if you watch nightly, you're going to really enjoy your experience, whether that's what Tyrese Halliborne is cooking up for the Pacers or who it is on the other team that's dropping 50 tonight. There's, there's always going to be some redeeming quality of that regular season basketball that's rewarding on a, you know, a recurring basis. Well, can I push back just just quickly on the Pacers because I too was a big Pacers proponent earlier in the season like 150 points like in that range like most of the time is something you don't typically see even in the high scoring

three point era of the NBA but like I think the flip side is starting to happen where there are too many like 150 to 130 games where like the offense is great but the defense is so bad that we're getting into more like muckbang territory where it's like oh this is like this is too much of a thing that like my stomach is hurting a little bit as this goes on. Interesting. So is it a desensitization of what they do or is it just like starting to wear on you the cumulative effect of all of all this scoring going both ways? Too much of a good thing. A lot of scoring is is great. This sort of extreme might be too much. So for instance, I actually have the Kings pretty high up on my list because it's almost like

a more adult measured version of what you're getting with the pace. There's a more fine. Wow. How it. Wow. Like a really like a really like high end burger basically is what the kings are. Whereas like maybe maybe with the the Pacers you're still just like scarfing down like the gross out triple decker sort of thing. He's he's calling the Pacers barefoot wine, Rob.

And the kings are like the truce or something like that. That's basically what he's doing there. I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. And who among us is above an occasional triple, triple decker, greasy burger, Justin? It's fine every so often. But like on a game to game every single game basis, I don't think I could do it. Was, who else do you have?

Dallas Mavericks, man. I've had to watch them because they've been playing in a lot of prominent games recently, a few of which they've come out on the top end of, you know, that Nuggets game notwithstanding. They kind of got crushed. They ran up against a buzzsaw. But honestly, right now, I think because Yokic is not playing, let's just say he's not trying his hardest at the moment in December. Like, it's kind of obvious if you watch the Nuggets at all.

Not that he's not giving great production. He's just not trying his very hardest. I think Luca is playing the best ball in the league right now. He seems to me to be the most unstoppable force on offense. that exists right now, this side of Nikola Yokic, like you just cannot single cover this guy at this point. The freaking step back to his left is just completely unstoppable at this point. And yeah, once he gets going downhill, it's amazing.

His footwork in the post, you know, which always like when people did the Harding comparisons is like, I don't know, man. Hardin doesn't have this post footwork backdown game. Hakeem Elijah, element to what he's doing, you know, as well as the off the dribble stuff. I just think he is, he's playing his best ball ever. You know, we predicted his MVP campaigns like three seasons in a row. This year, particularly the last two weeks or so, watching him play, I'm like, man,

this is LeBron stuff. This is LeBron in Miami, first think Cleveland stuff. This is Yokic last year stuff. And B stuff. Like, this guy is playing at the top level. of the league right now. To me, if you get a chance to watch Luca and how he's operating

with Kyrie out, mind you. You know, he just looks incredible. I have lots of Luca thoughts, lots of MAV's thoughts that I want to touch on a little later with another question. But can I pitch you guys on a deeper cut league pass potential? Really, I guess we're pitching Emma on deeper cut

league pass teams. Of course. If wins is not what you're interested in. Don't do it. the Portland Trailblazers Okay Interesting You know I'm all aboard the Shaden Sharp Express

Shadden Sharp looks incredible Oh my Lord Really really good Anthony Simons has been back And really impressive Matisse Thibel is having the season of his life Tumani Kamara

Are you kidding me Love Tumani Kamara And don't even talk to me If you don't know about Dwaprith yet Don't even talk to me To op wreath Yeah You are

Yeah You can't come to Christmas dinner If you don't have Noop wreaths Uh Yeah I like them Uh I would say though

I tend not to lean on them as my late night sort of team on the Pacific coast here I tend to Would prefer a Kings or like actually the team I have in my list Which might not even qualify As a league pass team

Because they probably don't play Enough League Pass games If you're in the States Because they might might be blacked out. If you're in L.A., for instance, this is the Lakers. Basically, outside of the 2020 title year, every Lakers season has games that can go one way or another. They're in every game to the end because they have just enough to where there's stakes and that there's, like, exciting superstar play happening. But they're, they could lose any game at any moment, even if they're up big, even if they're down big.

Like, it's going to be interesting in the fourth. And for that reason, the late era, LeBron. experience has been one of my favorites. Best sitcom on television. I've been saying that for three years now. It's true. They also have that thing going where teams get up to play the Lakers and they get up to play LeBron. And that's always going to result in a pretty great product.

Yeah. So before we leave Emma's email here, she did also have a secondary question, which I think we have to address here, which is what have been the silliest metaphors used so far on this season slash what was the most obscure turn of phrase, Justin has. used. Great question, Emma. Well, it's dev talk season here at Spotify. And I feel like this is a good opportunity, Justin, for you to do some self-review because one, we know you listen back to these podcasts, like a real sicko. And two, you were recently complaining about your multiple use of the same phrase in like back-to-back sentences within a minute in our collective group chat. So I know this is

on your mind? No, that's just more me being self-critical of myself, more than it is just like flagellating myself for like a beautiful turn of phrase here. I would say I'm doing R&D. I'm doing research to make sure that the pot is moving smoothly. I don't listen to all the time. I would say like maybe once every two weeks just to make sure that I'm not doing the same sort of like ticks, you know, or like for instance right there where I just kind of stammered. I'll just definitely Oh, no. Pull the rubber band on my wrist to give myself a little slap there.

But I think what Emma is saying is just like congratulating me for my charismatic and just awesome hosting performance. That's how I read that. That's certainly one way to read it. I just take Justin's literary flourishes for granted, honestly. It's like a thing that I just know is about to happen. I'm not just like, oh, Justin got off a one-liner metaphor. It's like it's what he does at this point.

It's like LeBron. Yeah. Don't take your powder toss. Yes. I was going to say you're like the Indiana Pacers. We're just getting deluged by great metaphors all the time to the point that we don't even feel them anymore. You know, they just wash right over us. Great.

Great question, Emma. This has been a beautiful discussion. I appreciated this. All right. Next one. Kevin Halligan, who just gave us some facts, which I actually kind of liked I did. He gave a lot of opinions. and they were pretty sharp and pretty incisive and kind of deep cut here.

So I want to go through a few of them because I think a lot of them have interesting jumping off points. The first one he has is Orlando will be a premier free agent destination within 10 years. And was, I think this is an interesting one because on Bill's podcast recently, Doc Rivers talked about back in the day when he was the magic coach and they almost got Tim Duncan and Grant Hill and T-Mack in there. This also popped up during the KD era before. we realized he just wanted to go to Golden State, there was the very different dude sort of vibe going around the league, wondering if he would go to a smaller market team, join up with

an Al Horford on the Magic, which was a popular rumor for a couple weeks there. Do you see the magic given where they are in Florida, no state taxes, nice climate? Do you think guys would flock to there if there was a reason to be there, like with the team being good enough? I mean, yeah, I actually missed the doc episode, but it's funny because I was going to invoke that Grant Hill, Tracy McGready, Tim Duncan era of the magic because basically essentially since that time where Duncan backed out at the very last minute, if legend is to be believed, and Grant Hill actually went, actually left Detroit. There's never been this like groundswell of like the magic as this great free agency destination. But I think things can change.

that, you know, superstar composition, you know, if they end up getting some superstars, if their ownership front office gets a reputation for being hyper-competent and able to produce winners, I think winning matters. San Antonio was able to get guys like Richard Jefferson and the like to go over there because they thought they could win, right? So I think winning will go a long way. But I do see Orlando as having the ability to be no different than the Suns, right? Like you said, great climate.

And there's more wealth in that area than people would honestly expect or understand in that central Florida area. And why does that matter? Because rich people need shit to do. Like, you know, there's only but so much shit as a rich person you could do in Oklahoma City. No offense. No disrespect. San Antonio. Like, it's just not Scottsdale, right?

Like, it's just not. There's just a more concentration of. well. So that means this, like socially, these people are able to feel more comfortable in those environments. And so I think Orlando is very underrated in that regard. Yeah, I don't know that they'll ever hit the premier level of L.A. or even necessarily Miami, like I think those markets have different draws for different reasons. But you could see the magic pulling a big time free agent with the right timing. If Paolo is popping off, if Franz is popping off, if they continue to win, if the market aligns just so where the right guy comes available,

you could see them getting one of the best players on the market in a given summer. But as far as this 10-year timeline, how sure are we that Florida is going to be above water in 10 years? Here we go. I admire the optimism. I admire the optimism. That's all I'm saying. Because you're suggesting that they will have formed a separate state with California.

Oh, no. I just think in 10 years, half the country is going to be underwater at that point, and we're going to need to accept that. So as long as we're living on house folks. Global alarmist Rob has checked in. Yes. I'm just sad. I couldn't get my YouTube Waz takes off on this pod because it might explode up here, boy. Well, there's more pods.

Yeah. I assure you was, you will have your opportunity. So I'm actually mixed on Orlando as a free agent destination. To me, they seem more like a team that's going to have to trade for, for instance, the way that Denver had to trade for Aaron Gordon. And the guy is willing to stay both because the team is good and because they will make more because of no state taxes. My theory about the NBA in terms of free agent destinations is you actually, we need a scatter plot of the U.S. to track the conglomeration of Instagram models because that is where guys actually want to be. And so I don't think it's a coincidence, for instance, that guys want to be in Brooklyn and New York, as opposed to even a Chicago, which a lot of people have suggested is a sleeping giant.

So Orlando, maybe, but like the LA teams, definitely. Yeah. Chicago doesn't have the IG models. This is news to me. No, no, no, no. No, no. I'm too cold. Well, correct me if I'm wrong.

This is, I'm waiting into waters that are deeper than I'm used to here. But just me, Miami. Miami, the concentration of them in Miami, you wouldn't even believe. And obviously, L.A. is the Mecca, North Hollywood specifically. But don't ask me how I know that. Isn't the appeal of the Instagram model, though, that you can fly them out? That it's a transportable enterprise. But that's an added expense.

Sure. From Miami? Like, I think that's close enough. You know, it's a regional flight at that point. Isn't an Uber X preferable to a flight, Rob? If you get my drift, it's just the concentration, those levels matter. And again, like even a place like Houston, which, you know, to me is like the black Boston, where like the way white people talk about Boston, like a lot of minorities are just like,

what is that? Like, why? Like, what's the big deal? Like, that's how I feel like white people feel about Houston when they hear black people describe it like, oh my God, Houston is it, blah, blah, blah. And it's for a lot of those same reasons to be quite honest. you know. And so, yeah, I think Justin is hit the nail on something there.

Okay. I need to get a research paper out on this and see if I can get it to Sloan. Also, don't forget about ATL in that mixture. Don't forget. That's true. All right. So this is a multi-tiered sort of prompt here because it's all based on coverage and TV and the future of game casts.

ESPN is finishing a run similar to that of MTV in the mid-80s, 90s, it will ultimately be sold and rebuilt as a sports betting entertainment product. That's one. The structure of NBA television coverage has researched logical conclusion and will feel quaint in five years. A social app will sign a deal for sideline access to players and coaches within five years. A player produced live stream will become a popular alternative to traditional network postgame coverage within three years. It makes more sense for a social network to stream an NBA game than for a broadcast network. What do you think, Rob? This is just a lot of thought. about the way we kind of consume the product.

Do you think in the next couple of years, things will be different than what we're used to? I don't think so, in part because TV revenue is still such a huge component of league revenue and the league's finances and the way everything is broken down and split up. So changing, what we're talking about is not changing how NBA games are broadcasting consumed.

What we're talking about is changing the financial structure of the way the NBA works. And that's a much... bigger and thornier proposition. And it's a reason why all of the mess with the regional sports networks right now has become such a problem in terms of availability of games, but also like are these companies even going to exist in the near future? Who's going to acquire them? Who's going to operate them? Ultimately, I think broadcast TV, especially when it comes to sports, is going to have a bit of a longer tail than Kevin is suggesting here. I think at the germ of

all of these ideas make sense. And we can see some of them already. For example, like a player produced post-game live stream after games, kind of replacing, say, inside the NBA over the course of time. Like, we've already got Dream on Green doing podcasts after games. We've already got players. Not anymore. Well, we did.

We did. But we already have some form of that with live podcasts, with video versions of podcasts. Like, what is all? ultimately the difference between that and a post-game live stream. It's just a matter of logistics. So I could see something like that happening. But in terms of where the games themselves are broadcast, I don't think the NBA is going to jump too quickly into a full streaming revolution.

It's going to take time. It's going to be a very long dwindling tail here. And in part, I think they just don't want to leave, like viewers who are still tethered to their cable subscriptions entirely behind. They're going to have to wean them off of those things. What I will say, though, that the viewers, feels like is speaking to is that I don't know that the NBA

and its product has been very well served by ESPN over the last few years. I don't know that, and I'm not saying, like, a lot of, full disclosure, I have friends that work over there. These are people whose work I admire. I'm talking about the suits and how they've positioned the NBA.

I don't know that they've done a good job, of eventizing the actual product that are NBA games. Like, that's just my opinion. And, you know, a lot of people might say, oh, you're nostalgic and you washed it. I'm just like, yo, if you look at NBA on NBC and the presentation of that product, compared to how ESPN handles the NBA,

it just doesn't feel as important. I think whoever the broadcast partner is, be it a streamer, be it a traditional broadcast network, work, just has to do a good job of explaining to people that, like, this is a must-see event and you need to be here to watch it when it comes on. Certain, like, football just obviously has its own built-in advantages because of the scarcity of the games. I think college football has the advantages.

College football, honestly, reminds me of the EPL and European soccer because those clubs have been there for 100 fucking years. Right. Like, they've been playing Army Navy for how freaking long. Like, Nordename has been playing USC for how freaking long, right? Same with Michigan and Ohio State. There's like this built-in tradition and culture around these events that don't exist with NBA events. And I think the best partners are going to find a way to tap into that type of thing. Obviously, they can't do it from, you know, decades and millennia of, you know, tradition. but they're going to have to find another way to goose it, right? Like you see F1 doing this.

You see, like, other sports doing it. I think the NBA has a very freaking compelling product and the right partner, whoever that BB at ESPN or somebody else in the future is going to have to figure out a way to tap into that sort of appeal for fans. That kind of goes back to something Adam Silver was talking about earlier this season two, about the way we package the game and sell the game.

And I think the takeaway that a lot of people had was, oh, he's suggesting more like X and O's, type of like in-game coverage. Like, let's talk more about the on-court product. I think there's lots of ways to goose it, as you were saying, was to create interest that go beyond play breakdown. I think it's just a matter of understanding that the drama of basketball, the drama of the sport is not just the trade market and it's not just gossip.

There's all, like, look what's happening between the Pacers, the Pacers and the Bucks right now. Because of the way the season is scheduled. This is the most blogger shit I've ever heard of my life. I don't think so. I don't think so. Like, look at the response to the game ball bullshit after that. Yeah.

That's an emotional, petty moment at the end of a game. And that's a way to sell the next game. The next game. Not the next trade. Yep. Not the next signing, but like something that happened on the court, that's a way that expresses why this next game is going to have stakes. See, I actually, I don't think that those are scratching different niches.

I think those are the same thing. It's all like petty gossip rumor mill type of stuff. It's just playing out. It leads to the game. Justin and the other leads to Twitter. Well, no. So here's the thing. Like I think the NBA had a mini boomlet when LeBron went to Miami specifically for that.

I do think the constant player movement does create intrigue. Like when you go into a new season, you want to see new guys in new places. And if anything, when guys tend to stick around now, maybe we're just attuned to the way the league operates now. I actually think it's the opposite. I think like just yeah, maybe there are more rivalries, but I don't know if there's going to be more interest as a result of that. So where I disagree with you on that, Justin, is that like, yes, people were interested because LeBron changed teams and that people were fucking angry.

Like, people were screaming at him in Memphis. People were screaming at him in Utah at the games, right? And so the fact that he switched teams and these Utah games now had stakes, like the game, had stakes because of that transaction. That transaction was tied to games having higher stakes. Transactions weren't tied to go to Twitter, keep refreshing your feed for the next transaction. You don't see the difference there?

I think there's a huge difference in that. I don't disagree necessarily that there's probably too much of the transactional stuff, that it might be eating away from someone who might be interested in back. basketball. There might be more of a divide between an online fan who doesn't consume the game and only the Detroit feeds and people who actually are still doing that. But I don't think they're mutual exclusive. I actually think that feeds into interest for the game. And I think like even the Janus Ball thing, like that's the same thing. It's off the court drama, building stakes, building tension. Like, I don't know. I don't really see those things as different, to be honest.

Well, they're not mutually exclusive, but I think the key is understanding that all of those things have a place in the ecosystem, and that the only game in town is not the transaction game, right? Because if you are only creating interest through players changing teams, that doesn't feel very sustainable over the course of an entire regular season, right? There's going to be a lot of interest at concentrated points, beginning of the season and the trade deadline primarily. Everything in between, that's why you're drumming up the end-season tournament.

That's why you're trying to get people interested in things that aren't just who is new on this roster. And I agree with you that the game ball thing with Janus leans a little bit into kind of the pettiness that drives people to the game, that pulls people to the game. But it came from a game in which everyone was pissed off where the Pacers were fouling him a ton and a matchup that even before that game, their previous matchups had been contentious.

And Damien Lillard was guaranteeing, I think it was at a charity event, telling kids, we're going to win tonight, I'm going to go off for 30 plus. Like there's all of these things that are feeding into each other. And one little mechanism that I think is helping with this is the scheduling of some of these games and these season series where you are getting more occasions of teams playing each other two and three times in a matter of a couple weeks. I think that is a really great idea that is paid off. I think that's leading to more fights.

Honestly, like what happened with Dremont choking out pretty go bears? We need more fights. We'll see. What's the difference between a fight and like a fucking trade rumor? Like you're acting like one is more like is better for the product than the other one. It's all like tapping into the same sort of like lizard brain sort of sort of approach to it. That's not why Draymond took a swing at Yusuf Nurkich. Like that's not what happened.

No, no, no. I'm saying in specifically the instance with the timber wolves where there was a scuffle in, I believe, Golden State, they played them the very next game and things popped off immediately. That is what's reading to the more fights. Yeah. And I don't think that's necessarily good for the game. anything as a national fan as someone who isn't watching each one team each game, I actually find the back-to-backs tend to be a little bit more redundant because I've already

watched this matchup to get it so soon and for the stakes to not build. I also think, like, by the way, how many people actually watch that Bucks Pacers game going in because Dame said something about wanting to score a bunch of points going into that? And how many people are going to actually watch that in the next one, though? But to me, as a league partner. Not as like a casual fan. I think you guys are projecting onto the stakes that people are more interested in that. We're saying our job is to create that interest.

To nurture and grow that interest. I don't work for the NBA. My job is to just say things are interesting when they happen. Yeah, but Justin, if the NBA ceased to matter, your job would cease to matter too. For sure. So the two things are related. If the NBA became a sport that nobody cared about but for Twitter, then what are we really talking about here? Like, to me, it's not that my job is to make people think the NBA is compelling.

Like, no, I think the NBA is compelling and therefore I do my job a certain way. I'm just saying, like, when the coverage gets, when the idea that what's most interesting about the game compels people to run to their timeline and not games that's a problem, in my opinion. I don't think we're saying different things. I actually don't think we're saying different things. I just think you guys are over-emphasizing what some of the other stuff you're mentioning is doing as opposed to like some of the trade activity. Like, that's all. It's all feeding into the same ecosystem for sure.

And there isn't the same level of interest without the movement, without free agency, without trade rumors. Like there's a reason why we talked about so much energy coming from that LeBron signing and that changing of teams and the way that. that really juiced the entire league and gave the entire league something to focus on and play into and play for. So it is coming from the same place.

I just want to make sure that we have room for lots of different kinds of coverage and lots of different ways to pull people in beyond just that. So ultimately, in terms of like the ESPN product or the way the NBA is packaged, these are complicated questions. They're complicated questions that are moving

against the slow deterioration of broadcast TV in general that are moving against overall tendencies away from watching full games and whether the league should care about that. Like should the NBA, should it matter to the league office that people consume their games in lots of different, more bite-sized ways

than watching games in full? Yeah, and I also think a lot of this conversation kind of taps into something foundational about how the NBA became successful to begin with, which is David Stern broadcasting the stars over the team of Magic and Bird over like even a Lakers and a Celtics.

And so it is sort of trying to move away from what was already successful. And I think that's why you get a divide, which is what was referring to, of maybe not having the same sort of history and legacy. It's because we've constantly put the players over the teams. And I don't really know how to change that, especially because the NBA has always leaned more young as a fan base. It has specifically targeted younger fans. And so, like, yes, there are a certain,

things to augment that, but ultimately, I think they're constantly chasing after what's new, and that kind of cuts against the history and the legacy that college football, for instance, has. Yeah, I don't see the star problem as a problem because if somebody were forecasting, they'd be like, oh my God, how do we replace Magic and Bird, Jordan? How do we place Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, AI? You know, how do we place that? Refreshing is the thing, as opposed to, like, the jerseys themselves.

Yeah, I think the ability for the NBA to produce compelling. individuals. I will never feel doubt and feel like there's any doubt of that. I think even right now, you think about the Jaws and the Ant Edwards and those kind of, like, these guys are compelling. These guys are cool. These guys are fascinating dudes. I just think, you know, it's a marketing problem. It's a promotional problem. It's a, or even probably, it's, that's how your league stays relevant is that you get people to care about it. And so, you know, that, that's for the suits to figure out. I don't know what I say.

Like the suits at the broadcast companies and the suits, you know, in Manhattan. That's for them to figure out. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandle, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any $5 money line bet. That's $150 if your team wins. I am looking at the odds for Wednesday's action. I like the Timberwolves. plus three and a half on the road going into Philly.

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Bonus issued as non-witrable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. Let's move along here because there's also another one on this list that I specifically want to get Waz's take on, which is that player fashion has reached a nadir. 100%. That's a fact. That's not even a question. It's like, to me, what these guys are wearing right now, it's no different to when my mom

forced me to wear certain stuff to go to school. This is what's happening with players only. It's just their stylists. They've all farmed out this job to stylists. Professionals, not to say these people aren't good at what they do, but like a lot of is just dudes are just literally just showing up in whatever their stylist told them to wear all these freaking designer name brands. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

It's just, it looks like a Halloween costume. I swear to God with a lot of these dudes. And I would agree with that statement. So yeah, shout to you for pointing that out, brother. Kevin Halligan. Rob, what is your take on player fashion? I have zero take on player fashion. I mean, I do agree with the idea of like the depersonalization of player style.

And you could look at this at player branding more broadly. Like who these guys are is less and less represented in what they do. There's so many different corporate interests. There's so many different like bodies to serve and agents to appease that I feel like in some ways we have lots of access to these guys. In some ways we have like no idea who Jason Tatum is. and maybe that's because Jason Tatum doesn't want to put himself out there in quite that way and that's fine

but there are a lot of stars who are really interesting and there are a lot of stars who I have no concept of what is important to them even if it's a matter of like what they actually want to wear beyond what their stylist would tell them to. I'm pro getting away from suits from coaches. I'll say that. Sure.

The more I think about that, yeah, like it must be awful to sweat in a suit for 82 games a year. And now I think a lot of like a con of class would prefer that like to see the same thing that they used to see with Pat Riley and the Gucci and all that. I have to say like I'm just a fan of coaches being liberated, being no longer bound by neckties. Do you know what's so funny? I'm of two minds of that because personally I hate a dress code of any kind. I'm like pretty much morally opposed to the idea that we would tell a grown up how to show up to a place.

so that they're worthy of some type of respect and dignity, right? Like a lawyer can't do his job in a hoodie. I find that to be ridiculous as a concept. At the same time, like, I kind of do want these guys in suits because it makes the games feel important, right? Like, they're dressed up for work. You know what I mean? Like, it makes it feel like we're at this professional,

really big deal event because these dudes are dressed up. So it's, like, personally and hypocritically, I would not want to be subjected to that dress code. But as a consumer, I do enjoy watching the coaches get dressed up. I recognize my contradictions there, Rob. I'm a human being. Bring back the team suits. Bring back like the LeBron buying Tom Fords for everyone on the roster.

That's what we need for a playoff front. This is why I wear a suit to every podcast, actually. The listener doesn't see that. But every time I'm bringing it. It's looking great. Well tailored. Honestly, great fit, Justin. Yeah, thank you.

All right. So this one is from Scott Tobias. I believe acclaimed TV and film critic on Twitter. He's a constant fan and gives a lot of feedback and we appreciate that. His first question is, would you agree that the greatness of a Muppet Christmas Carol lies in Michael Kane taking the assignment seriously and giving the definitive Scrooge performance? And I have to say, we got a lot of Muppet Christmas Carol feedback. Damn straight. We did. Is this another podcast you guys did without me? What happened here? I have no idea. I included it in the tweet prompt because this is a movie that's very near and dear to my heart. And clearly, very important to lots of people, even if you, you two have never quite treated yourselves to its wonders just yet. What do you think about Michael Kane's performance?

Oh, this is without a doubt the correct take. Like, that movie works because Michael Kane is welling up at like Fossey Bear. Because he's like full on screaming at fucking Beaker. He's going 110% completely sells it. It's genuinely one of the most masterful performances I've ever seen. And sometimes Michael Kane is like acting opposite a Muppet cabbage. So please, please, this holiday season, if you've never seen the Muppet Christmas Carol, go see it.

If it's playing in some theaters in a rep capacity right now, go see it. Get yourself a DVD. Get yourself, I think it's maybe on Disney Plus. Just the greatest Christmas movie of our time. Was, do you have any Christmas staples? Any Christmas movies you watch every year? No, I don't. And I have to confess, I've never seen a Muppet Christmas Carol.

Was, come on. And I want to bring the listeners behind the scenes a little bit. When I was being interviewed to work at the ringer, I was explaining to Sean Fantasy. Shouts to Sean Fantasy, the big dog. I was like, yo, I'm actually a big consumer of the ringer. because it's like educational. Like my white cultural literacy

is being like enhanced by consuming the content. Like nobody in my crib, whether it be my older brother or older sister, definitely not my Haitian-ass mom, was like, yo, let's watch a Muppet Christmas carrot. Like it just wasn't a thing. So learning what this thing is and why people loved it is the kind of thing that I would consume the ringer for. And that's not even like a dig.

That's just a straight up like for real, bro. It sounds like a dig, was. It's not. It sounds like a dig. You're treating this podcast like a sociologist. It's like, what are these weird and crazy things you guys are into? Their traditions are so fascinating. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

Like even, you know, when I'm listening to Robb show 60 songs, which no cap is my favorite individual Ringer podcast. It's my favorite drinks that we put out. whole company. Holy shit. Rob is killing it. I never listen to Incubis, but I'm going to listen to the episode

because I'm about to learn about it. Straight up. Like, I never listen to these cats. You know what I mean? Yo, like, the other day, Rob put out a sublime episode, right? Great episode. You guys are going to absolutely appreciate this.

So when I was at Penn State, my first Christmas, I was trying to avoid taking a bus back or a train back to New York. This is like forever. And I was like, man, I hope I could get a ride. And it was like a Facebook group of New Yorkers at Penn State. And it's like, yo, we're only, anybody who needs a ride, all you got to do is pay me.

I think it was like $20 for gas. I'm going to Long Island. This kid was going to Long Island, which Queens is on the way to Long Island from Pennsylvania. So it was like a perfect thing. And, you know, I get there with my bags or whatever. I'm meeting this kid for the first time. And he says to me, the only thing I got to tell you is that we're going to listen to Sublime and 311 the entire way there. And I was like, brother, you go play whatever you want, man.

You're dropping me door to door from Penn State to Queens. I don't give a dance. So it's like, yeah, man, a lot of times I just love up in my, you know, cultural blind spots. And a lot of that stuff, honestly, is just like, shit that's just coated as white as hell. You know what I mean? Sublime being one of them. Yeah, Justin, were you a sublime guy? I could see you being a sublime guy.

I had a phase. Whatever the popular album was, I definitely played that on repeat in high school a bunch. Your Santa Rias and whatnot. You're what I've got. Right. So I didn't get into the deep cuts. No, like, whatever that cover band that came up after the singer died, something with Rome. Well, I think it's the same band.

just with a new singer. So not technically cover band. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's also a cover band that does it like religiously. That also is in heavy circulation. I don't go to that extent, but yes, sublime.

I actually haven't seen a Muppet Christmas Carol either. Fix it. Not part of my rotation. Yeah, I know. Fix that. I watch Manchester by the sea every year instead. Jesus Christ. Jesus, Christ.

What the hell? Sick old New England, bro, bro. sickle. Really puts me in the frame of mine, you know? All right. Well, Scott also had a basketball question, which I thought was really fascinating. What would be your choice for the league's best player in a currently bad situation? And where would you move him to unlock his potential greatness? And now Scott uses a manual quickly as an example and putting him on the spur.

So not necessarily a player on a bad team, just in a bad situation. Was, what do you have? I mean, I think Jeremy Grant is still. would still be useful for any contender whatsoever that wanted to give up stuff for him, right? Be they the heat, be they, well, the bucks ain't got nothing, but he would like, he would turn the bucks into literally, you know, the greatest team since the 95, 96 Bulls, right? And so I think of Jeremy Grant in that way. So, like, I interpreted this question a little bit different.

I was just like, Lamello Ball needs to get the fuck up out of Charlotte. I mean, I think you could argue the Hornet situation is pretty bad overall. It's, it's, you know, whatever, new ownership. So hope springs eternal. But like, man, I would love to see him literally anywhere with like even a baseline level of competence to get out of this. So those are the guys that immediately came the mind for me because, you know, Jeremy Grant, I just think his talents are being wasted in Portland. And, you know, if you remember, if people don't remember this,

the reason why he got paid in Detroit is because he unlocked a lot of things for Denver during that playoffs, right? Just filling in the blanks and the gaps when Yokic is getting double-attacking double teams. For the first time in his career, he started splashing that corner three. You know, every now and again, he's taking smaller guys off the dribble. Like, he showed this sort of, you know, Swiss Army K-Ga. capability with a team that ultimately ended up in the conference finals that year. And that's why he's got paid.

But ever since then, he's been in exile, right? He's been, you know, on the road to Damascus. And so we need to get this guy on a real team, y'all. I will say by choice, though. He chose to go to Detroit over Denver. He chased the bread. And he did sign that big-ass extension. Yeah.

Absolutely. Counten loves him for that. Well, and the reporting around grand situation right now suggests that the Blazers don't really want to trade him, and we don't really have any indication that he's particularly unhappy there. Although, as someone watching the game, I would love to see him on a winning team again, Waz. I would love to see him in a competitive environment.

But yeah, I think there's a couple of different ways to come at this question. If you're looking at, like, the best player who's in a bad situation, that's when you get into your Lomelo's. That's when you get into, I think, your Lowry Markanans, who... Not an old guy by any means, only 26, but by the time the jazz are on their competitive timeline, like this is a team with a long way to go

before they're really climbing up the West. Is he willing to wait that long? Does he want to wait that long? Frankly, Michael Pina put the idea of Lowry Markinen as a member of the Thunder in my head, and I can't shake it loose. He's really sweet. Really sweet fit there.

I think on the lower, on the Emanuel quickly end of the spectrum, how do we make Quentin Grimes in Milwaukee, buck. It's a good fit. He's already been benched in New York. His minutes are erratic. His touches are erratic.

Don't you remember when Quentin Grimes was untouchable piece? He was like this untradable like you're trying to trade. You're trying to put Quentin Grimes in the trades. Like that's crazy. And now he can't get off the bench. I don't think Kevin Durant signed off on that apparently. I love that when he griped about not getting enough

opportunities. He immediately got sent. to the bench. It was like, it was a quick leash with him, which is disappointing because he's a good player. He's a good player,

and I think he could be better served in a lot of different places that need his perimeter defense, even if they can put up with some of the shakier come and go shooting from him. But also, Tyos Jones, he doesn't deserve this,

but let's get Tyos Jones out of Washington. You know, the spur, you know, reunite the Joneses in San Antonio, I think, makes sense. Put him on the Sons. And I think that could be something to really cook with. one of the highest turnover teams in the league in Phoenix.

Like Tyos Jones would be a great kind of caretaker for them. So I'm hoping to get Tyos Jones out of Wizards-based exile. One more thing about Lori Markening and the situation being bad. Like, I don't know, it went from, you know, he was basically trade fodder in a deal that was, you know, made to get as many picks as possible to All-Star Weekend. And you weren't there, Rob. But his posters in Utah dwarfed that of Steph Curry. Okay, like it was kind of crazy.

You got off, you got off the plane and it was just Lori Markening just everywhere. Like you would have thought he was an MVP candidate the way the jazz and Utah treated his, his All-Star Game appearance. It was kind of amazing. Yeah. He appeals to the fan base. So I have on my list, I have Kyle Kuzma for similar reasons to Rob with Tice Jones. Got to get him off of the Wizards. I have him going to the heat, which is a pretty popular destination,

at least on this podcast. Trey Young. How about Trey Young to the Jazz? Which is odd because we really are just shuffling the decks between two bad teams at this point, but could Will Hardy, for instance, find a version of Trey Young? It's a little bit more palatable, working into a system. And then I had Cade Cunningham going to the Spurs. Definitely won't happen.

There's no way that Shred gives up on him. He's like one of their few good salvage. eligible players left on the sinking ship. But putting him next to Wembe would be pretty fantastic. Oh, absolutely. And yeah, those are two guys that both deserve to. Like the Spurs and the Pistons are so bad. I think the Spurs situation is probably a little healthier and a little better

despite all the losses that have been mounting lately. The Pistons just have so much work to do in terms of figuring out what their roster needs to look like and creating the space that Cade needs to thrive. So putting him somewhere where he has actual room to breathe would be a nice relief and certainly a fair way for us to judge, like is this guy the playmaker he's cracked up to be, the superstar who the Detroit hopes he can be. We don't even really have a definitive answer on that yet

because he hasn't had the space to prove it. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Trading that man to the Spurs so he could be around even more bricklayers. I mean, come on, man. Let's get this man to a spot where he can get a good role, man, some nice shooting, you know, some good space and discipline space, incredible spacers and shooters. Let me see that just for once before, like, you know,

I throw in the towel on this guy and his all-star potential, man. Like, he's in just a calamitous situation right now, bro. Like, the roster construction is so uneven and discombobulated. Like, there's no logic to the lineups that they're putting out there. You know, I know Killian Hayes is supposed to be whatever. And, you know, all these, like, the, the, the, They're forcing Stewart to be a power forward now, even though he's clearly a setter. Just because you take threes, don't mean you're going to make them, okay?

It doesn't make you a stretch forward just because you take threes. Those threes have to go in occasionally. Like, I'd like to see this guy played with a roster that actually made some type of sense and was actually complimentary. Congrats to the Spurs, though, on breaking their losing streak. Huge, huge development, huge news. And, yeah, there is some real out-of-the-frying pan stuff at work with. Cade being potentially traded

to the Spurs, but at least they haven't lost 24 straight games. Listen, Devin Vassell is going to look like prime Steph Curry to Cade Cunningham after he gets off of Detroit. Like, just having one of those guys would make a big difference. All right, let's do one more because you fucking marketing executives

took 20 minutes on that question. We? We did. Yeah. Bullshit. Let's just do a bunch of play breakdowns on Twitter, and that's going to sell a game. I literally said, don't do that. literally said it. You said it, but you didn't, you follow up, kind of contradicted it.

Piri Rutherford, in quotes, a big fan of the Thunder from Down Under. That's also Waz's nickname when we get off the pod. Is this Thunder rookie group the best ever, has a group of players on rookie contracts ever been so impactful on a contender? And so I did some deep research on this one because this is a fascinating question. We should mention first and foremost that Shea isn't part of this rookie contract core for the Thunder as currently constructed. It would be Giddy, J-dub, J-Will, Uzman Jang, Chet, Wallace. And if you want to throw them in there, like a Trey Man, Amich.

There's going to be more, because I think Giddy isn't eligible for a rookie contract extension until next start of next season. And thus it wouldn't roll over until the following off season. So there's actually another rookie class that they could shoehorn in here. So just in terms of pure depth, it is pretty remarkable. But I think first and foremost, where we have to start in terms of comparison would be OKC from 2009, 2010, which these are the players that they had not on adult contracts. They hadn't signed a second contract yet. Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, Russell Westbrook, James Hardin, Serge Abaka. And then if you want to throw them in there, Thabocephalosha, and Eric Maynard and Byron Mullins, who were.

Yeah, we do. Yeah, we want to throw them in there. Vow first round picks, so we were pretty, yeah, we were actually intrigued by those guys at a time. So we have to throw those in there. Because like some of the guys on the Thunder might not make as much of a leap as we probably expect. For the people who weren't there,

there was a legitimate movement that the Thunder need to start Eric Maynor over Russell Westbrook. That it was like, this, Russell Westbrook is taking so much away from Kevin Durant and Jeff Green that we need to start Eric Maynor. it got a lot of ground swell and hasn't quite paid off hasn't quite paid off, I don't think.

A team won 50 games. Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good. So I would say three MVP's is a tough bar to leap over. I have a few more here, but do you guys have any others?

For sure. I think for me, when I think about young cores all kind of coming up together, my go-to is of the same era and it's the 2009 Blazers, which was Brandon, Roy's rookie year.

Lamarcus Aldridge, Greg Odens, or sorry, this Brandon Roy in year three, Greg Odin's rookie year, but also Nicholas Batum's rookie year, Rudy Fernandez is rookie year, Jared Bayliss's rookie year,

a guy who I swore up and down was going to make it as a star in the league, but did not. This is my answer to that question, by the way, yeah. Love Jared Bayliss. I was obsessed with Jared Bailey. He had it.

I could have swore. I could see it in his eyes. He had the look for sure, and he was like the supremely confident dude. And in college the dude was freaking unstoppable. I was like, surely this six two guys are going to translate to the bros.

You just couldn't stay in front of them. But overall, of their top 11 guys in minutes, eight of them were in the first four years of their career. And that team won 54 games. So like that to me is another one of these like young core standards. But they didn't climb as high as OKC did. And none

of those guys hit the levels that any of Westbrook or Durant did, certainly. Except for sure. Rodriguez, you know. He had to run overseas eventually. Respect where it's due. Kevin Durand and Russ Westbrook didn't match the beard that Sergio Rodriguez produced over time.

So who's to say which one is more important? Yeah, even Ibaka's career was pretty insane. When you consider the contracts, that guy was able to earn non-max deals for the most part. But, like, man, like he got paid in the league. And so it's tough. And also, man, if you remember that series against the Lakers

where Kobe just went out of his way to really like, be like, yo, man, these dudes are coming, blah, blah, blah, which is just not a thing that Kobe did a lot, honestly. Like, he would be respectful of the opponent for the most part, but he definitely wasn't praising people in defeat. Like, that never happened. And with this group, he was just, you know, really blown away by the talent that they had amassed and collected.

You know, it's a shame that the cheapscape nature of the ownership had to break it up prematurely. but that's a pod for another day. We're not going to relitigate the hard in trade here. This team lost in the first round to the Lakers that year. Next year, they made it to the finals, which I think they were still underneath the threshold of a second contract, all those guys.

Unfortunately, the next rookie class was just Cole Aldrich. They had too many young guys that they couldn't actually bring in any more intriguing young guys. But that would probably be the one team. That would be the high standard. the finals team with all these guys. Yeah, I think it's a fair one. And the other way to take this question, I think,

is looking at who are the most individually impactful rookie scale players on like impact on winning for contending teams? Because yeah, you can get a long laundry list of guys on rookie scale for the Thunder now in the past. You can get that Blazers team that I mentioned. But I'm not sure there's a single rookie scale player who has ever had a greater impact on a contending team than 2006, Dwayne We, Wade. So, 06, Wade and Haslam came in together, both in their third years at that point.

Absolute monstrous impact. And as far as rookies specifically, I think Donovan Mitchell deserves a call out in 2018. Like, he transformed the jazz immediately coming in after Gordon Hayward had exited there. And that was a team that still had some other young guys kind of kicking around too. You had Royce O'Neill coming in at the same time. Joe Ingalls, who was in his fourth year going on 40, Dante Exum in his third year at that point. And that was a 48 win team. that almost ended Carmelo Anthony's career. They embarrassed him so badly in the playoffs. So I think there's a lot of different ways to take this question.

It just matters if like the depth of what the current Thunder have is what's impressive to you. Or if it's the fact that Chet could be an all-N-Ba-level player someday and we're already seeing flashes of it. Yeah, if you want to go high-end, obviously the Warriors, 2012, 2013, 147 games made the second round, I believe, that year. It's Kli, it's Klias, Traymond, it's Barron, Zeeleon, Baysmore. That was the year they pushed the spurs, right? just kind of like they're coming out party season. Yep. But if you want to go for pure depth,

I think this might be the gold standard, which is the 2017-2018-Las-Aflagos, who won a robust 35 games that year. This is the lineup that they had on the roster. Julius Randall, Larry Nance, Brandon Ingram, Gary Payton II, who I believe was like a 10-day

or maybe like a late-season signing, Zubach, Lanzo Ball Thomas Bryan Alex Caruso Josh Hart and Kyle Kuzma And if you want to throw him in

In addition to that Jordan Clarkson was technically in his fourth year But because he was his second rounder He got an extension sooner than possible So if we're just going by fourth year or less That's

Is it 10 guys? To have that many young guys And like the amount of these dudes Who are going to have 10 year NBA careers is kind of insane when you really boil it down. For sure. Like the high end, obviously, is Ingram and Randall, which, you know, but still, like, the amount of guys on this team that are literally legitimate NBA pros going to earn over

$100 million in their career is just like, that's staggering, dude. But not a winning team, not a contending team, certainly. No. No, but I do think there's like a six degrees of separation thing happening where I think you could tell the past years, the past like 10 years of NBA basketball through this one team. Just the connections and the type of teams that they ended up on. These are all like above average solid-ass players that we talk about constantly on podcasts. The podcast. It's so true. Endlessly relevant to this group for good reasons and bad, for playing with stars, for toiling away now on franchises in Kyle Kuzma's case. There's definitely a story to tell. In Lanzo's case. Well, and in Larry Nance's case, who's had a hard time staying healthy consistently. Endlessly relevant. That's what the New York Times is saying about the group chat podcast.

So we'll be back, I think a day earlier than is typical. Usually we publish the weekend pot on Sunday. I think we're coming to your feeds on Saturday because we have a special Christmas edition. Maybe Waz and I will watch a Christmas Carol before then, probably not. Maybe Rob will watch Manchester by the sea. Only Muppet Christmas. I don't care about any other Scrooge's but Michael Cain. He's my Scrooge.

It's Christmas time in the city. Carol or Waz in full effect. Yeah. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Saturday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fanduel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC.

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