The Ringer NBA Show - Making Heads or Tails of James Harden in Houston. Plus a Retrospective on John Wall in Washington. | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

James Harden has finally showed up to Houston training camp to participate in the COVID-19 preseason protocols—but does that mean he’ll remain a Rocket in 2021 (1:00)? Plus, Michael Lee of the Washington Post joins to discuss John Wall’s under-appreciated relationship with Washington D.C., the pressure he faced as the Wizards’ savior, and what changes about the franchise's direction with Russell Westbrook at the lead guard position (21:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: Michael Lee Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat the ringers weekly NBA group discussion where jackets are always optional. I am Justin Varyer joining me today. Rob Mahoney. Justin, you know, our good friend Jonathan Charks is always telling us every team needs to go small. We're going real small today. We're clearing our big man out. Me and you, we're going to eat today. Yeah, there's no one to impugn your clutch ability, especially when you go and play for another team. It was just absolutely not. Just us. Michael Lee of the Washington Post.

is going to join us later in the show. It was a really good conversation we had about John Wall, Bradley Beale, Russell Westbrook, and everything going on there. Mike had covered the Wizards for a very long time, and now he's back with the post as an enterprise writer. But first, Rob and I are going to get into the topic du jour in the NBA. That is James Hardin. And where is he now? We know where he is. And we will talk about that just after this. So Hardin is back, Rob. We found him. He's in Houston. He apparently. has undergone a COVID-19 test when he'll be able to return to actual basketball remains to be seen. But he's here, which I guess is a step forward.

The other big news kind of yesterday on the hardened front was just that ESPN reported that the Sixers are now in the mix. The way just reading the tea leaves and reading into the news are a bit, it seemed like the Nets isn't likely, at least right now. and he's just willing to go to Philly. So it's kind of like, well, why not here? If he has to, he'll go to Philly, you know? If you're going to make him, he'll go to Philly. One of the best teams in the NBA. Yeah, and I do like the Sixers perspective on it,

as reported by ESPN, which was basically like, yeah, sure, but we won't give up two of our best players. So I don't know if this is going to resolve quickly. Where are you on this whole thing? Because there's a lot of different ways we can take this. So where do you want to start? One thing I've been thinking about with this is, are we in this position if the Rockets had successfully hired Ty Loo?

You know, that was the guy that reportedly James Hardin, Russell Westbrook both wanted to be the next head coach of the Rockets. And I'm by no means putting this in Stephen Silas's lap. This is so clearly not his fault. But if that had happened, because it seemed like Hardin was very invested in Ty Lou being the next head coach of the Rockets, would he be making these overtures in quite the same way? would he be skipping out on camp the way he did? I really wonder how this whole episode would have played out differently if Lou was the head coach.

Yeah, so there was reporting today. I believe it was Joe Varden in the Athletic who suggested that Lou was Hardin's first choice. But Tillman Fertita, as I think everyone assumed, did not want to hire Lou. I think it's safe to say that it probably has something to do with how much Lou is making for the Clippers right now. I believe his preferred choice was Jeff Van Gundy, and Stephen Silas was just in the middle compromise. between the two. I got to say, man, Stephen Silas really has a raw deal where he finally gets his opportunity as a head coach and what he's doing pretty much every day now is being like, I don't know where James is. Like, I hope this works out. I just really want to have a talk with

him. Why won't he talk to me? It's impossible for him. I've been watching these availability with Stephen Silas to walk that line between, you know, trying to be responsible to his guys that are in Houston and playing and reassuring for them. and also, you know, drawing a certain line that, oh, we do lose something by not having James Harden here, but also basically making a plea for James Harden to come home. Like, there are moments during Stephen Silas's availability that are very Ben Affleck talking straight down the barrel of the lens and gone girl to his wife begging her to come home. The parallel may get a little shaky from there, but I do think, you know, an impossible

situation for a first-time head coach. And by all means, Silas seems to be acclimated. admitting well to the variety of interest he has to serve now on a day to day and kind of hour to hour basis. Yeah. I could just see Silas just being like, we got your favorite wizard. Come home. We have your favorite snacks. We have coupons to the strip club.

Please, James. But to your point, though, like, I don't know. There was also reporting the other day, I believe it's Kelly Eco in the athletic who suggested that James made a similar mandate last season after the Chris Paul fiasco, which is what led us to the trade for Russell Westbrook, which we knew. We knew that James Hardin played a big role in that, but it was interesting to read it into this context where this isn't really maybe new for Hardin, which I think gets into the question, which is something that you wrote about on the site today on Wednesday, which is when does player empowerment go too far? Like, I think

both you and I are in the camp where players should wield the power that they have, you know, things tilt so far in the direction of owners, anytime players can maybe wrestle some of that back. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but we're at the point where I think you need to ask some existential questions about team building and also about just the league in general, especially as they enter into this era where ratings were already a question and they're going to be an even bigger run in this kind of pandemic, even post-pandemic world. Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on how you frame it, right? player empowerment at its core is a players versus management type of tension.

It's the idea that players should have freedom over where they play, especially in an industry where they're drafted and don't have a lot of say of coming into the league in terms of what market they're going to live in, what franchise they're going to play for. There's not a lot of agency up front. And so players have rightly reclaimed it over the years in terms of later in their career what they're able to do. But at what point does that shift from being player versus management and that tension to player versus his own teammates to players versus.

versus the concept of a team, if they have so much authority that can kind of strangle it as Hardin, you know, has basically held the Rockets hostage over the last couple of days and weeks. You know, it shifts subtly, but quickly.

And once you hit that point, I do wonder how you're going to kind of put all that back in the box. Yeah, and this is something you brought up, but I think is the key point here. This isn't a situation where the organization just made awful moves in order to do their best to put anything next to Hardin,

or they changed. cheaped out, at least in the beginning. Clearly now they have some issues with their new ownership. But Hardin, it seems like, was essentially in the room with Daryl Morey, like making some of these maneuvers. At the very least, he had something equivalent to sign off. Like we just said, he asked the trade for Russell Westbrook. It didn't seem like he put his body in the way of a Russell Westbrook trade in order to get John Wall. I don't know where he stands on Wall because you would believe that he would be okay with it considering the things we've heard about. about him and Russ and all the fallout between their one season together.

But on the other hand, it seems like Walzer's going out there and, like, maybe has talked to James, like, maybe he thinks he's going to be there. So it's a very strange situation. I'm just left to believe, like, I don't know if I have much sympathy for Hardin in this situation because he really has gotten everything he wanted. And if he wanted a shorter time with the Rockets, why didn't he prefer some of the shorter contracts that you've seen LeBron James sort of sign in order to be able to escape in this situation. Like, if you're going to take the money, then you really can't complain now when you're trapped

in for a couple of years. Yeah, I mean, he opted for the security, right? Like, there's a balance of these things. You're either maxing out the money, going for the secure long-term contracts, or you're going for the flexibility. Some players have been able to walk the line and kind of get both. I think that's, you know, Hardin is probably looking at some of those models and saying, oh, if LeBron could do this, if AD could do that, why can't I?

do my own version of that thing, even though it's kind of a more exaggerated case. It's just a hard sell, I think, given the length that he still has on his contract, given, as you said, his involvement in the creation of pretty much every Rockets team to date. Every shot as well. Every shot, yeah. Like, I mean, his usage rate is high in the front office and it's high on the court. Like, he has a level of authorship here. Yeah.

So it's a hard thing to kind of wiggle your way out of. in the way that other stars have wiggled their way out of their situations that they didn't have so much of a hand in forming. Yeah, it's kind of like changing everything in your house to fit like a left-hander and then being like, nah, I don't want this. Like, were you a Cribs fan growing up? Like, I remember. This is a very specific, like, have you ever done this? Have you ever lived with a left-handed roommate or something and just upended your life? Well, no, like I always, I watched Shack's Crib, for instance, and everything is enormous. Like the bed is as big as a beluga whale. And I'm like, what is the resale value of this? Like, how can anybody else fit into this after you've made everything fit your preferences? You got everything you

wanted. And then if you want to leave, like, I don't know what else you want to do there. So, well, speaking as someone who has stuck my arms into many ceiling fans over the course of my life, I kind of want Shaq's house. Like, let's go for the oversized comically large house. I, I want to feel that experience. Come on. Mears, seconds ago, you were talking about James Harden and actual news, and now you're talking about the resale value of a house that Shaq had in the mid-2000s. We're saying that from a producer's perspective. I love the tangent. What do you think the resale value is, Bob? You think he'll get, you know, 5% on what he paid? There's enough rich people out there in the world that they would actually add to the value because it used to be Shaq's house as a novelty.

You know? Think about Cribbs, part two, not Shaq in here anymore. Just Rob. Now I'm just going to picture Bobby just like doing Starfish position in Shaq's giant bed. The reason that I don't have my video on right now is because I'm in Shaq's house right now. Okay, great. Well, I'm glad we're, you know, we're kickstarting our, you know, spin-off real estate pod. This is really kind of the backdoor pilot for that. So Bob, you'll be hosting.

Look out for that on the Ringer podcast network. Listen, if anyone wants to do rewatchables house hunters, I'm game. I'm ready to do all 500 episodes. Oh, boy. So I think we could look at this two ways. One, I'm still curious about this in the big picture. So I think we could say that it seems unlikely that the rockets would want to find Hardin, considering they still need to have some relationship with him, at least in the immediate.

I do wonder if the league is going to step in here. And I do wonder how much of a concern this is for the league at a weird time where, you know, Adam Silver has basically admitted that there's this divide between. the online discourse and how passionate people are about talking transactions and also like this viewership problem. And I wonder if we're getting to the point where those two things coalesced. And so is this going too far in one direction where it's directly affecting the gameplay on a day-to-day basis? Like if Hardin just doesn't show up or he dogs it throughout the season, like that's going to be a problem. It's going to be an eyesore for the league.

And then I also wonder, is this going to turn off fans if we're at the point where a player gets everything he wants? He was just in the Western Conference finals three years ago or two years ago, whenever it was. And he's already asking out, even though he's under contract. I think there are like bigger existential questions for the league here. I'm curious, where do you fall on this? Do you feel like that this will turn people off? Or is this just news of the week and we'll move on to it as long as Harden just suits up and does what he does? I think in the moment, it'll be another reality TV type aspect of the NBA presentation.

And there's good and there's bad reality TV, right? Like some of it can be actively problematic or embarrassing to the people involved. Some of it is just kind of good, harmless fun. Over time, I think you start to see what's what in terms of the NBA, you know, maneuverings, players, interactions with their teams, with other players. It's kind of hard to assess out in real time what the fallout of something like this could be. So, like, that's what makes it tricky. And the magic words, of course, are breach of contract, right?

If Hardin is not showing up, that's one thing. But now that he's reported, hopefully he's going to be participating on some cursory level and what the Rockets are doing, that's a different conversation. Players can push for trades. That's totally fine. It's well within his power to do that. The problem was when he was just refusing to show, period, not communicating with his team at all.

I mean, that's in void of what he agreed to do. So, you know, he can show up. he can give a half-assed effort, he can push for a trade in the background. That stuff is all totally above board and fine. Maybe not palatable, but well within his right to do. Yeah, because it seemed like the league, not to seem like, but it pretty much is on record at this point push Anthony Davis to keep showing up. They have the pelicans, keep putting him in the lineup.

And that just became... Yeah, forced the pelicans to include him, right, essentially? Yeah, and so that became a disaster. And I wonder if they want that back. And so this is kind of the Mulligan situation where do they do this? same thing. If Hardin says, hey, I don't want to play, get rid of me, I'm not going to suit up for actual games. Do they step in again and say, well, you have to, but then if the product's so poor that it's actually, it's the opposite of what they want from the situation, do they then

step in again and say, well, actually don't do it? It's a very complex situation. I don't know if there are any winners, I guess except if you're a team with assets and you have a reasonable packaged to trade for Hardin. So the Nets are the team that we'd heard about for a while. It seems like that's Hardin's preference, despite what Kevin Durant might say about the situation. Philly's now back on the board, on the board, whatever you want to say about it. What's your take on this?

Does this seem like if Darrell really wants James to really bring the band back together, he can make that happen? If you're him, do you want to make that happen before you? get a look at Joel and Bede and Ben Simmons together without like all of the things that were in the way before. I mean, are we assuming that the Rockets would trade James Harden to a Daryl. That's the question.

Look, I mean, Darrell was just a guy torn between his home life and his career. He just wanted to have it all. Wanted to have that one year with his daughter. Sorry, Gap Week with his daughter. It's like,

I mean, it's like a rom-com B plot, except instead of leaving his job to like start his dream job, he, you know, a cupcake bakery. He went to go manage the Sixers instead. Sure. I mean, I think this is a win for all the other teams, all the non-Nets, non-Sixers teams. Those have been in the ether.

Those are out there. I think if the Rockets are willing to do business with the Sixers, those conversations almost have to happen. They make a lot of sense. The Nets are online one whenever the rockets are ready to take those calls, I assume. But considering the length of time that Hardin still has on his deal, a two-year window is not nothing. Like, you can give real assets for two years of James Harden.

you think you're in a position to be a pretty good team. Look at what the Clippers gave up for two guaranteed years of Paul George and Kawhi Leonard, right? I think there are a lot of franchises who would jump at that opportunity. And so we can go around the league and look at what teams make sense for that. I think there's not a lot in that next group that's really looking to jump up that's one James Harden away and it's willing to kind of cater to his style in a way that, frankly, his game deserves and has shown it can be that it's deserving of.

that's the tricky part, but the longer you stretch this out, the more interesting it gets in terms of the number of suitors, the diversity of offers, and ultimately what the Rockets could get back for one of the best players in the NBA. Yeah, I think the Chris Paul situation in OKC, ironically, is a bit instructive for what the Rockets might want to go through. Now, obviously, there's far more tensions at play here. And it does seem like, based on what everyone's saying about Chris Paul and some of the other veterans that have gone through OKC recently, that Sam Presti is kind of a maestro. getting distressed asset guys, like in order to buy in. Dennis Schroeder was like willing to come off the bench in OKC and all of a sudden he gets in front of LeBron James. He's like, no, start me, which is pretty wild. But I don't see why the Rockets don't just draw a hard line. If Hardin doesn't show up, then he might get penalized by the league and he still won't get what he wants. I mean, Anthony Davis, again, is an instructive situation as well where they only had to go through

half a season, but they didn't trade them at the deadline for something that would have been, you know, a couple cents on the dollar. And they caught a massive amount of assets from the Lakers. And so maybe that's what we're headed for. Maybe, or maybe, I don't know, maybe, like, would you trade a Ben Simmons type immediately if you're Philly? Or do you just wait this out and say, let me at the very least get a look at these guys? The Ben Simmons case is agonizing. just because of his age, because of, you know, just the fact that we've seen them,

you know, Simmons and Embed together for so long, but never quite with as much shooting as you would like, and they may finally get that chance this season, at least a taste of it. On a gut level, I think James Harden is one of the very best players in the NBA, one of the best scores in NBA history. I would wait.

And not because I'm totally sold that the Simmons and Beat stuff would work, but because I think there's going to be a little bit of a window here to explore what we have versus what could be. Yeah, I just keep going back to how much of a show Darryl Moore made of saying that Joelle Embed was so great in his introductory remarks.

And now, on the one hand, I think you could read that into perhaps Joelle needs the love a bit more than Ben Simmons. It reminds me of the Doc Rivers. DeAndre Jordan is a future defensive MVP sort of thing. Was there a Bill Russell comparison at some point? that sounds about right. Perhaps from Tommy Einstein, RIP.

No, from Doc, I think. I mean, I could be totally mistaken. It's been a long time. Forgive me if that's not the case. Well, similarly successful in this league. So I can see where you get that. So, yeah, one, it could have just been, you know, the PR war and him trying to curry favor for guys who had been clashing

and probably not as happy as they could be. On the other hand, like maybe Juel long-term is the better player. like, I personally love Ben Simmons as a player, and I can't wait to see him unleashed on a team where he doesn't have to play with four other centers. But he's also a much tougher player to, like, really figure out. You really need to jigger your entire organization around him. I just don't know if the Sixers have that leeway.

And so inevitably, maybe it is going to be a hardened Joel situation. And I guess the question becomes, like, when is the deadline, right? for for darrell does he have to act right now or does he have time to really slow play this out it's going to be fascinating to see but well to me that's where these other potential suitors come in because you know you do have this two-year window of hard and under contract plus a player option that's worth a lot of money you know not necessarily a given that he'll turn it down to sign a longer term deal it's it's worth quite a lot if if hardin is requesting a trade this early. The trade-off for that is that he may not go where he wants to go. You know, Anthony Davis was

able to maneuver a certain way because of the threat of his free agency, because that was looming on the horizon. If that, if you take away that threat, there's really no reason for the Rockets not to just take the best offer they could possibly get, even if that means sending him to Minnesota or to Charlotte or to Orlando or to, you know, whatever that team may be, even if that's not Hardin's first choice. So we'll see if any of those teams actually become realistic options and are able to put together the kind of pieces the rockets would need. But the only thing really checking the rockets in that regard is their reputation with other stars around the league and the idea that they didn't do right by James, a guy who, again, requested to be traded. Sure. Yeah. And I do wonder how much

this situation is entwined with the Bradley Beale situation, where there are teams seemingly just gearing up to whenever he comes available on the market. It seems like in an inevitable situation. And so I wonder if Beal becomes available, then all of a sudden the suitors that the rockets can leverage against other teams. Like that becomes more of a, they lose leverage in that situation. And that, my friend, is a good place to transition here to our conversation with Mike Lee. So we recorded this on Tuesday afternoon. So if anything doesn't hold up, that is why.

But it seems like most of it should. Other than that, we will take a quick break. And when we come back, you will hear that conversation. All right. We're back. And we are going to talk about the most fascinating team in the NBA. We wouldn't have said this a couple days ago, but all of a sudden, the Washington Wizards are at the top of most people's minds,

except for maybe James Harden. To talk about it with us, this whole situation, Michael Lee from The Washington Post. What's up, man? Hey, what's that, fellas? Thanks for joining us. So I think the first time I was ever in Staple Center was for a Clippers and Wizards game.

And my introduction to the Washington Wizards was, John Wall and I believe Nick Young eating chicken fingers in the locker room about 20 minutes before the game tips off. I think that is when I first met you. Was that the heyday of the Wizards? Because it is for me. It is for a lot of fans. I mean, they still love that team because it was definitely one of the more ridiculous teams, collections of talent that you could imagine with John Wall, who's like this pristine number one pick, you know, the future of the franchise, the future of the point card position. And then you got Andrea Blatch and Jabel McGee and Nick Young who, you know, they were labeled

knuckleheads and I'll say they were not knuckleheads. I thought that was a really bad nickname for him. Somehow it stuck, they just weren't the most professional guys, but they weren't bad guys. And most of the stuff they did was harmless other than, you know, self-inflicted stuff or silly stuff that made people laugh. But yeah, just having that whole collection of talent with John Wall, it was probably disturbing introduction to the NBA for somebody who had just come from Kentucky and, you know, had won all these games.

And all of a sudden he's taking a lot of L's and then just watching his teammates just do ridiculous things like chase triple doubles just because they can. I'm just glad we got to, I'm just glad we got to Andre Blotch early, you know, right here. Inside the two minutes. I mean, let's just clear out for a good 30 minutes on Blotch alone. God, I haven't thought about him in a long time, but he was such an interesting player for a while. He was. He had a real complete skill set for a while.

He just, he told me once that he also had a problem that late at night, he just got these cravings. And he had to eat. So he couldn't, he couldn't fight it, you know, two in the morning. It's like, hey, man, let me just go grab a bite. Who among us, can't? identify with that feeling. I could totally identify with everything he said. I just don't happen to be a professional athlete. I feel like at this point he's probably played as long in the Philippines as he was in the NBA, at least as like as a core rotational NBA player because he's had like a second

life that I don't think a lot of people even realize. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he went over to Asia and it's funny because if I'm not mistaken, I think Javelle McGee was sort of the first guy at the Philippines really came after to try to be on their national team. And like he had thought about it. He is contemplated going to play for the Philippine national team. But then Team USA invited him to come play, to work out for them. And I guess he left the Philippines behind. And then they were like, well, who else can we get in the NBA if we can't get Javelle

McGee? Let's get his teammate, Andrew Blatch. And he worked out for him. So he found a pretty decent career out there. I think he is kind of like a, I don't know what the specific terminology is, but he's like a part-time citizen or something, they have to like naturalize them in order to like actually be there. He is a dual citizen. Yeah.

I love it. Before, before we get into more Wizards history, let's, let's kind of set the scene of the current day wizard. So obviously they made this huge trade. Russell Westbrook shows up early. He's got these big smiles that we haven't seen from them in,

in years on some of these media day photos. Is that the sense you get from just the team, maybe the fan base, maybe DC at large as much as you can through like Zooms and, and whatnot, are people more excited about the wizards than they have been in a couple years? I think people are in like this weird space because, you know, imagine if like for two years, you know, they just told you, hey, everything's going to be fine once John gets back. For two years, oh, you know, you know, we suck right now, but we're not going to tank because

you know that John Wall's coming back. Hey, we're not going to give up. We've got to keep fighting and we're going to keep competing and playing hard and establish this culture. And when John comes back, everything's going to be okay. And you keep getting told that over and over again. And you see John working out. You see a couple of these videos of him doing things. He's dunking.

Oh, John might come back. And then, you know, as a fan, you've been watching this guy for, you know, eight years, play, make five all-star appearances, get hurt. And you expect him to come back. And you never see him again in a wizard uniform. Like, you didn't even know that in December of 2018, that'd be the last time you'd ever see. see John Wall in a weirder's uniform, and you never will see them in that place again. So for a lot of fans, I think there's just that kind of just that awkward thing and just anticipating like, you know, this great meal that you're going to get because you've been

building up, you're hungry. And then it's like, oh, yeah, we're not going to have macaroni and cheese. We're going to have steak. And you're like, oh, well, I was really looking forward to mac and cheese. But the steak is pretty good. You know, this is a former MVP, nine-time All-Star. Like, this is pretty good. we can deal.

So I think fans are just kind of getting over John Wall and then starting to accept that Russell Westbrook is pretty good. And that, you know, despite, you know, criticism of his efficiency and some of other things you can say about his game, he's still pretty good. And if you look at the numbers he put up last year in Houston, despite dealing with some injuries, you know, he still's one of the best players in basketball. So you don't have to worry about trying to see John Wall work himself back in the shape. you got a guy that you're plugging in and he's ready to go. So I think that there's just sort of this, just getting over to break up and just accepting the fact that, you know what,

you still got a pretty good player here. And we might be able to make the playoffs if he's healthy and everything works out right. Yeah, there's, I can feel my brain at war a little bit because there's the part of it that wants to see good players traded all the time just so we can see them in different contexts. You know,

we get to see Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beale try to figure this out. That's going to be really interesting to watch. But then, and maybe this is just me being a sap, but there's the part of it that is regrettable. Whenever any player who's been in one place as long as Wall has been, who was as in touch with that fan base in that city as he was, has to move on for whatever reason. Even if it's their own free agency, you just, you lose a little something there, especially as the NBA moves towards that more mercenary place. I mean, it really hit me as I was looking through the teams and trying to figure out who has been with their team longer than Wall was with the Wizards. and there's really only two guys left. And it's Udana's Haslam.

Steph Curry. Yeah, exactly. That's crazy. Udana's been with the heat since time immemorial, basically. Like, he's going to be buried somewhere in that arena one day. But he played next to Ronnie Cycly, yeah. But it hurts with Wall in that way. Like, I mean, even just aside from the weirdness of seeing him in a different uniform,

that dissociation of taking him away from this group of fans and this organization that's really gotten to know him, it hurts to lose that. Yeah, and I think that we've lost that. I mean, I know that we were in this player empowerment era, which really only seems to affect a couple, handful of guys. But, you know, it's like, well, if you're not winning championships and just leave and find a team that you can go win. And I think we've lost an element of just that bond that you have with athletes

and that connection you can have that just comes from being with somebody and seeing them fail and seeing them succeed and just going through that whole journey that rise with them. I think it's one of reasons why Damien Lillard has such a strong connection with the fans in Portland. And like he's never won anything, but they love him. They adore him. And he talks about all the time about how he wants to stay there and win there. And that is deeper than just trying to win a championship.

Sometimes it's about making a connection with a community to where they love you so much, they want to raise your jersey to the rafters. And I think about a lot of players that we've seen just in this lot of mobility. A lot of players moving around, you don't get a chance. to have a home, you know. You know, like Shaq, you know, has his great Hall of Fame player. He's bounced around a lot of places. His numbers retire a lot of places because he's just a uniquely special guy.

What happens to a guy like Ray Allen, who was a Hall of Fame player, but is looking around and sees that Janice Anta Dacompo, where his number 34 in Milwaukee now. The number is retired. It's probably not going to have Allen on the back. And then he goes to Boston and went to championship there. Now Pierce's numbers already retired. KG is probably going to have his number. number retired there. But Gordon Hayward just wore number 20 in Boston. And he had just as much

role in winning a championship there as anybody else. He goes to Miami and wins a championship. And like, as great as Ray Allen is, is this number ever going to hang anywhere? As great as he is, he's a Hall of Fame player, best shooter we've probably ever seen. And so you've seen a lot of these situations where, you know, guys are moving around and it's like, well, I just got frustrated, I couldn't win here. But there is something to be said about guys who stay and who want to stay. But then I think there's also a sadness here with the John Wall situation in that it's sort of like a bad marriage where you can kind of see the warning signs that this is over, but you just hold on because you've been together. It's like, you just, well, you know, she's still here. So I guess I got to keep showing up.

And that's sort of what the Wizards had been doing the last couple of years. And I think the injuries are sort of like having a baby where it forced them to stay together because they had no other choice but to stick it out. because, you know, he was hurt. But I think that, you know, the fact that they traded him, I think it was a good way to just kind of, you know, separate, you know, get that separation that should have happened probably two years ago. Because honestly, I believe that once John Wall signed his Supermax in 2017, that's where a lot of the problems started and where there was a separation

between him, the organization, and his teammates. And it manifests itself in that really funky, crazy way. wild practice they had back in 2018 where, you know, John is cursing out Scott Brooks and Bradley Bills. Like, I've been putting up with this for seven years. And it just turned into this big blow-up that never really, they never really resolved. And then John got hurt. And then, you know, they come back. And for two years, there's anticipation. And then there's a video that comes out of him flashing gang signs. And then it's like, oh, yeah, I remember now. We don't really want to be with you anymore. And that's, that's, that's, what, what's triggered the end. So, um, but, but yeah,

I know it's a long, long rant, but, um, but yeah, you, you wish that guys could find a way to stick it out and, in the, in the, keep playing, uh, with one organization. And I thought that John's connection with DC was just really, really unique, um, and really special. Um, he's always going to have love in DC. Um, why do you think that is just because, you know, you brought up the Lillard Comp? I feel like that's a little bit more known now. nationally, but I wouldn't necessarily think of DC having this deep bottom with wall. But for you, you see that as just as just as strong as some of these other ones. Well, think about it this way.

The Wizards haven't really been a relevant franchise for over 40 years. They haven't made to the conference finals since 1979, right? And in that time, they went some very long stretches without even making the playoffs. So when you have a franchise has been that low, and you have a player that gives you. gives them just the little slightest bit of hope. And that bond is just automatically, like, it's like, whoa, we love you, you know? And it's not even just that they loved him. He loved them back.

He always talked about how much he loved D.C. And he had this really unique connection with D.C. And that he grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina. But his dad is from D.C. And his dad is somebody who he didn't really get a chance to know very well because he was in and out of prison. and then he died when he was nine. So when he wound up being drafted by his dad's hometown team,

he really felt like, okay, I got to make this home. You know, I can walk the streets that my dad walked. And in some ways, it gave him this connection to this place that he didn't, he didn't grow up with, you know, no one. But it gave him a connection with his dad. And so he really was D.C. I mean, he enjoyed the nightlife in D.C. You could see him out.

John Wall might be hanging out. at the club and you might say, hey, there's John, look at it. He's with us. He's with the people. And he also was big in the community. And it was a sincere thing that he did with the community. It wasn't just something that he just did. Like he had backpack giveaways and, you know, he would stay there and take pictures with every kid that came up and got a backpack from him. You know, the other time guys were just standing there, hey, whatever kid, you know, here go on. John would sit there and talk to these people and laugh with them and joke with him. And so he really was just one of the community. And he would do this stuff in the hood. Like he would do it in like, you know,

southeast, like the roughest parts of D.C. And he was at home in these places. And there was like he was, he was somebody that just was so big that he wasn't approachable. And there was a sincerity to him. There was a genuineness to him that he was going to screw up. He was going to make mistakes. He was going to do bad. Sometimes you do things you would not be proud of. But he would fess up and say, I messed up. Or he would have a bad game and say, you know, it's my fall. But he also, if he had a good game, he would also say, I did this for DC. And when you have that kind of relationship with somebody where he's going to be stand up and to accept responsibility for his mistakes, and then also big up his community when he does well, you can't

help but love a guy like that. Because he never ducked. He never ducked, you know. I wonder if we're missing some of that willingness to accept those kinds of incidents over a longer term throughout the league. As we're talking about guys bouncing around and the fraying relationships between superstars and their teams, you know, you really have to have a lot of patience on the team side if you're going to draft a guy like John first overall and, you know, weather through him this, you know, over this long a period, the injury is just being part of that, but also things like this video with the gang signs, things like, you know, hit him and Brad getting into it now and again, whatever it may be. And as a player, you have to be willing to accept some

of that too and be willing to push through that stuff. I don't know how many guys are willing to do that these days. They're not that many guys, but there was also something unique about the Wizards and John Wall's situation. I know a lot of Wizards fans didn't really blame him for the shortcomings because they always blamed everything on Ernie. But if you think about it, Ernie's presence with the Wizards organization probably is one of the main reasons why John stayed there as long as he did, because he was a very secure general manager. He was in his position and everybody knew he wasn't going anywhere. So if that's a situation, you may make the best of whatever comes your way. A lot of times these teams, they change direction

every now and then. They always get a new coach, get a new general manager. And when that happens, you can see it right now with the James Hardin situation. They finally lose Darry and James Hardin's like, get me out of here and he wants to be traded. And so look at what happened with the Wizards. They fired Ernie Grunfield while John Wall was out injured. They have a new general manager there. Now, Tommy Shepard is the new guy. And he's, you know, but he also worked with Ernie for a long time, but he's got to worry about his future. He's not as secure as Ernie was. So if the opportunity comes to say, okay, we got a guy who's coming back from a rupture

Achilles, you know, which is like the worst possible injury you could have for a guy who's known for his speed and his explosiveness. And he's going to have to work himself back. Well, I have to show my owner that we are making progress as a franchise and we're moving in the right direction. We just had two back-to-back lottery seasons, really boring seasons that nobody really cared about. As great as Brad was, he had a couple 50-point games, average 30 and still didn't make all NBA because nobody cared.

The Wizards just are irrelevant franchise. So do you have time to wait, you know, Scott Brooks, you know, last year's deal? So there's a lot at stake for the Wizards right now to where they had to make a move right now. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact there are people out there who have to look at for their jobs. And so I think there's a lot of dynamics that go into, you know, why players leave. And a lot of that stability, you know, comes from up top and it plays down to on the court. So a lot of times just you have situations where you have people who don't have that emotional tie to these athletes and they come in and they say, you know, well, what's not working?

Okay, let's go. Let's move on. And Tommy was there long enough to kind of understand, you know, all the dynamics for the Wizards, but also to understand that if you get a chance to get a guy like Russell Westbrook who might be 32 and may not be able to play at this level for the duration of his contract, but might get you that one year

that can get you in the playoffs, that can get you an extension, you got to go for that deal, you know? Because he, I mean, what a Russell average? Like 27, 8, and 8 last year? That's incredible. Like, those numbers are incredible.

Well, you say what you will about the shooting percentage or whatever. A dude gets 27, 8 and 8. You know, we're ready to, you know, lift him up as being the greatest. We're like, oh, but you know what? He didn't average a triple double last year. So he had a down year. They had to get rid of him. Yeah, well, what you're talking about with people with ticking clocks on them,

that just kind of makes the Beale part of this so fascinating. And especially just like his own growth underneath, like, Wall's wing, sort of. Because I can't really think of another player like him. I was trying to think about it before. Maybe Tatum is sort of similar to where Kyrie was looming over him and then he kind of stepped forward and became the guy. But even that had its own certain dynamics that would make it a little bit different. Beale was pretty much brought in to be Wall's peer.

And then when Wall wasn't there, he kind of grew into the main guy. And now there's just like whispers like maybe he didn't want to go forward with Wall anymore. Like where's your sense of just that relationship? Because I feel like it's just gone all over the place throughout their entire time together. It has. I will say that on a personal level that they are good friends, that they like each other, that they, you know, look out for each other and that they, you know, bonded over some similar experiences and that, you know, they both became fathers around the same time.

They both kind of just matured into manhood, you know, in this thing. They're both one and done guys who just had the whole world thrust on them right away, and they've kind of experienced all of that at the same time growing up together. So there's a connection there. There's a brotherhood there that will always be there. Now, there's a professional relationship where that's been up and down. And there have been moments where, you know, it was a tug of war to see who was going to take control. Because, you know, all these times you have teams that have these losing seasons,

they collect all these number one picks or top top picks. You throw these guys together and say, okay, figure it out. A lot of times they don't figure it out. because they've been told their whole lives, I'm the man, I'm the man, I'm the man, I'm the man. Then you add somebody else who's like, well, I'm the man, I'm the man. And you're like, well, who's the man? And you try to figure it out.

And when you're losing games, it makes it even tougher to search yourself. And then when you start winning, who gets the credit for that success? If you look at a situation, say, like you look at the, like Kyrie Irvin, right, in Cleveland, when he wound up, he didn't win any games when he was the front guy, but you add a guy like LeBron, seven-year age gap, right? So do you understand the hierarchy of the team? With John and Brad, they're like two and a half years apart. So it's like, well, we're right here facing up against each other.

But it's funny you mentioned that this is a unique situation, but it's not. It's very similar to what happened previously in Washington. Gilbert Arenas, a guy who, just like John Wall, had a debilitating injury. me, his was a knee, John was his foot, his Achilles. He essentially missed two seasons. And in that time, Karan Butler ascended and became an all-star. Now, Karan and Gil were not as close personally as John and Brad are. So there was never that type of thing where they got along to where it was going to work.

And when they finally got to play together, just everything fell apart that year. You might remember what happened later on that year with Jarvis. Crittenden and everything else. But it was almost the identical situation because while Gilbert was out, Karan ascended, the franchise kind of said, okay, you're an all-star. You're going to be one of our big guys. But when Gil came back, it was almost like, well, yeah, I'm still a man here. I'm the one on a $100 million contract. Everybody else needs to like follow me. And if you don't, then you're going to be left behind. And that led to some very, a very difficult season, one that actually wind up leading to John Wall being the number one pick in Washington.

So it has happened before. But Brad's unique in that, you know, he had been there the whole time. He's one of the guys they had drafted and developed. And he wanted the role of being the man and being a leader and being somebody who could be a front-line superstar player in the NBA. And he embraced it in a way that, you know, a lot of guys wouldn't, especially you be like, man, I don't have the best player around. man, this sucks, man.

Just trade me, get me out of here so I can start winning. Brad was like, well, I might not win, but I'm going to do everything I can to let everyone know just how good I am. And I'm going to try to make sure that the guys that I play with understand that we're going to try to win games, even if we are short on talent. And I think the organization looked at this and was like, you know what, this is the mentality that we want.

This is the sort of personality of culture that we want to set, that we're going to be competitive, we're going to play hard, we're going to compete, we're going to give everything we have. And Brad sort of became the person to represent what the Wizards want to be. And with that being the case, everything had to be done to acquiesce him to make sure that he's happy, to make sure that, you know, and I think that John in some ways was willing to accept it, but only but so far. I think he was saying the right things before they got together. Like, yeah, you know, Brad's come on to his own. And yeah, it's going to be me and Brad are going to be on equal footing.

And that all sounded good. but I think that once they got on the floor, I'm sure John would have been like, yeah, that was nice what you did without me, but I'm back. You know, and I think Brad in some ways, he may never admit it. He's probably looking at it and saying, I don't know if I'm ready to go back to being

John's little brother on the basketball court. I can do that in life. You know, you're older than me. Fine. But on the basketball court, man, I should have been 13-mall-N-B-A last year. Like, I average 30-and-6, man. Like, any many people in the lead that can do what I'd

did. And so it was going to be tough for that to come together. And I think the Wizards did, you know, they were, there were wise in some ways that they avoided what could have been a souring of their professional relationship on the court. And I think that, you know, now, now Brad can move forward with Russell Westbrook, a guy who sort of fits the culture that they're trying to establish. Because one thing you can say about Russell, you know, you can't ever say that he doesn't bring it. You know, the one thing about, Russell's like you kind of want them to tone it down sometimes but you never have to worry about you know them going you know to to play a bad team you know going in a city where you know

everybody else is going to be you know on the second end of back of back just like oh who's on the schedule them oh man I don't even want to play Russ doesn't ever have that attitude Russ is like oh we got oh um I don't know I don't even know who the bad teams in anybody or we got the kings tonight right uh I don't even I don't even I I don't really get bleak. You know, everybody else doesn't give a bleat. Well, Russell will go out there and try to give the Kings 35, you know, just because he just wants to destroy everybody in his path.

And if you're a Wizards and you try to establish that kind of culture, he's the guy you want. I think sometimes the last couple of years of John played, they were going to say, play the Knicks and it's like, or for the Sixers when they were like really processing, and you wouldn't know what you were going to get because it's like, why aren't they up for this game? The next night they played the Lakers and they gave them the business. It's like, hold up, man. Like, why are you getting all up to play Kobe Bryant, but you can't get up, you know, to play, I don't know.

Smith. Yes, exactly. And I think that that consistency is something that you won't have to worry about. They may not win a lot of games, but the effort is going to be there. And Russell can be a leader in that regard for the young guys to know how to play and how to go about, you know, to be a professional. You know, one thing I remember when people talk about what Russ does to his teammates in terms of like, like the Rust tax you got to pay to play with him. Like you're going to give up some rebounds.

You're going to give up some points because this is my ball, right? But he does, but the way he goes about his business, you have to respect it. Like Victor Oladipo, when he played there, you know, he didn't have the type of season that they maybe wanted out of him, his year in Oklahoma City. But when he went to Indiana, he knows, he understood the benefits of being around Russ because he knew that if I want to be great at this, I got to show up early. You know, I got to, you know, do my routine and make sure that whatever I practice, you know, on the floor is what I do in the game. I'm not just waste energy just like, I'm going to shoot this shot that I'm never going to take in the game. No, I have to shoot the shots that I'm going to take in the game so that when the opportunity comes, I'm confident in him. And that's what Russ always did.

He's a stickler. He's really about being disciplined and doing things the right way. And he's a neat freak, you know, he's probably OCD. He's like all these things to make sure that everything is done meticulously and done a certain way. And that's why he's as good as he is and why he's become a probably first ballot Hall of Fame player despite not being somebody who was heralded when he was drafted and had some rough patches over in his career. That contradiction of him as the guy who has the rust tax but also teammates will swear by him, like even guys you wouldn't expect.

That's why I really wasn't shocked at all to. see him go full-on charm offensive now that he's, you know, landed with the wizards. Because he's a guy who, if you spend any amount of time around him, you'll see him go from just full smile, like loving life, talking to, even if it's a sideline reporter for the TV broadcast and then he walks over five feet and he's ready to chew somebody's head off. Like he just, he turns that quickly. I think there is, there's an emotional intelligence there that, especially, you know, for us on the media side, we see one very specific stonewall side of.

him. But in terms of how he approaches his team, in terms of his interactions with guys, especially off the court, I don't think it's a mistake or a coincidence that so many guys, even ones you wouldn't expect, will still stand by him even years after playing with him. Yeah, because you know what you're going to get. Like I said, as a professional athlete, as a coach, anything, you want to know when you step into the court that you can depend on this guy to bring it, you know, every night. And some guys, you know, it's like, oh, man, he was out at the club and he's not really focused right now. This is going to be a rough night.

Rush, you know that he was in the gym and that he was putting into work and that his whole mentality is that he's trying to beat whoever's in front of him. He might not be successful in it, but you know you're never going to have him just go through the motions, you know. And that's one of the reason why I think a lot of his teammates respect him, but he also does a lot of things behind his scenes to look out for guys. And he's going to try to motivate him. And he's going to try to uplift him with his end.

energy. And, you know, when you see a guy just like, you know, just launching himself toward the rim and just attacking and screaming and just howling and hooting and like, you can't help but get fired up with that. And that's the type of energy that of Russ brings. And it'll be interesting to see how it comes together because this is his third stop, you know, in three years. And I know for him it's got to be just kind of odd, you know, spending 11 years of Oklahoma the city and, you know, being the man there for, especially the time after Kevin left and then just bouncing around now and like you're in your third place, but there is something unique about him because he is very loyal to the people that are close to him that matter to him. And if you look

at the situations that he's chosen the last two years, he chose Houston because of James, you know, his relationship with James and their friendship that goes back to when they were nine years old and playing the Boys and Girls Club. And then where else is you pick next? He picks Washington, because they have Scotty Brooks. They have the coach that was with him who really just let him figure out, find his way in the league. They have a training staff

that has a lot of, you know, people from the Thunder that he was familiar with. So in some ways, it's a new beginning, but he's with familiar people. So it's not like he's completely starting over. And I think that says a lot about Russ

and just what he, you know, was looking out for when he made this move. Because I don't think he necessarily wants to bounce around and be some kind of journeymen. I think he wants to stick in a place and try to, you know, be successful there, as successful as he can be, and also try to connect with the community. Yeah, it's interesting because even though Russ said times, especially during the playoffs last year or this year, whatever we're categorizing it anymore, like he did make substantial changes in order to fit into what the rockets were doing. He was basically functionally playing center for a lot of the times.

And he did well right before the season was suspended. but then you hear things where he's like, well, I want to get back to how I used to play. And I do wonder how much of that he's going to be able to do with Brad there. And ultimately, I wonder if it becomes a question more for Scott Brooks because as we all know, like, he wasn't staggering Russ when he was playing next to KD.

And I wonder how he's going to approach that situation because you could see them doing well if they don't play a lot of minutes together. But I don't know. Is that something that like he's going to, want to do? Yeah, I'm interested. I mean, given, you know, how he played with KD and I play with Paul George, I could see a lot of my turn, your turn going with him and Brad, you know, where, you know, and he may even be willing to defer to Brad a little bit more because he just won't be able to, you know,

bring it the way he has in the past as he gets older in ages. But I just think overall, the Wizards will have two guys instead of one. You know, last year, Brad just had to carry all of that wait and he stepped up and still was able to put up big numbers. But I think that, you know, for Russ, he'll have to lean on what he's done in the past. You know, Paul George was what, third in MVP voting playing with Russ. Katie, one MVP playing with Russ. So if you're Bradley Bill and you're worried about like how it's going to affect you might actually elevate you. If you view it from the perspective of what have guys actually done while playing with us and what can I do? And if I'm that next guy, you know, if you're, if you're somebody like,

you know, Troy Brown, you know, maybe you're not going to, you know, become the third star there. But, but you will figure out what it takes to be a pro by watching both of those guys. And if you haven't done the right things, I guarantee you one or both, and all likely that both will jump on you to get you to do what needs to be done. They're super intense. And I think that Brad last year, one thing that he learned is that being a leader is a challenge in the NBA. It's really hard to get guys to follow you and to go out there and play with the intensity that you play with. And I think in some ways he admitted that he didn't get it right.

He wasn't as patient as he needed to be with some of these young guys. And when he challenged them, he didn't necessarily uplift them. And so it's going to be something that I think he learned. from last year and how he's going to be able to motivate, you know, some of the younger guys on the wizard's roster. And with Russ around to take some of that leadership off of him, he might even have an even better season because he doesn't have to worry about all that other stuff because Russ is going to be there. And he, you know, Russ is going to get in guys' face and say what needs to be said. Brad doesn't have to do that now. He can just focus on hooping. And I think

that'll bring out the more joyful side of Brad. You know, I think last year, I remember, I wrote a column about it, just how I was like, seeing mad Brad is not fun. Like, I don't want to see Brad, like, angry and, like, walking out of media sessions and, like, fuming on the bench and, like, you know, just things that just letting that frustration kind of bubble over. I think you want to see a little more joy coming out of him, especially when he's having a career year. And that might actually happen for Brad this year because he can relax a bit and know that it is not all on him and that he has another all-star caliber player with him who can relieve him some of the press. even if they don't win a lot of games, he'll at least just know that I can come and just do my job.

And it's not even just Brad. I mean, you look at the league. Look at what LeBron James did last year and won a championship in L.A. One of the more underrated storylines of him winning a championship with the Lakers is that Lakers locker room. They had Jared Dudley, Rajan Rondo, they had so many veteran guys, Danny Green, all these guys who've one championships that know how to put out fires, that all they got to do is say, hey, LeBron, you just go out there and be LeBron. We'll take care of all this small stuff.

If somebody's mad about minutes or about not playing, you just go out there and be you, you'd be great. AD, you guys carry us. We'll take care of this other stuff. And that means that goes a long way, no matter how great the player is. And I think that's probably something that's not mentioned enough is the impact that LeBron had, it's being a leader but not having to lead and do everything. Because, you know, its first year in L.A., it was a struggle trying to motivate these young guys and get them to do this.

And, you know, trying to organize gatherings, trying to organize dinners and things. That's a lot that had to do and try to go out there and do your job. If you got other guys out there taking care of that, it'll help you. So I'm just bringing it down to Brad. Having a guy like Russ there to take on some of that leadership role, I think will help him be even a better version. I mean, I think that's where the optimistic case for the wizard starts, right? If you want to make a case for them as the eighth seed is competing for something even more than that, it starts with, okay, we're taking a lot off of Brad's plate. And he can focus on being the best player, he can be, hopefully make things easier for him.

And then you get into what you mentioned, Justin, about Russ, already, you know, having a pretty successful year when he was healthy last season. And you're surrounding him with spacing, you know, especially at the big positions here in Washington. I'm curious, you know, from you too, Justin, like, what do you think of this? team now? Like, how good do you think the Wizards can be with this kind of revamped group? I mean, the floor is pretty low, I guess, you know, in terms of the Eastern Conference. Like, they don't really have to do too much. They were already kind of in that mix. And they really don't have to do much better than last season, especially considering that you only have to get to 10th now to even have a shot at this. I'm excited about what they have, though,

which I feel like is more important than any sort of like X's or anything like that. Like, just to see how this plays out, to see Russ with probably the most amount of shooting he's ever played with in his career. That's why I bring it back to Scott Brooks. Brooks, like, manages those two guys. I do wonder if they have enough pieces around them to make it through the season and to at the very least threaten teams like, I don't know, the Pistons or wherever else is going to be in that mix for like 9-10, Charlotte. Like, if you're looking at this on paper, like, would you take the Wizards over the Hornets with Gordon Hayward? I might. I'm sorry

they were nine last year I mean they were invited to the bubble they had no shot at making the playoffs but they were right there without having a Russell you know and and then Bertens didn't play in the bubble you know you add him to the mix

you know one of the best shooters in the league guy who will be upset if he ever misses a shot like you know somebody who you know he's going to get a lot of open looks because of the attention that Russ is going to bring and also the attention that Brad's going to bring So, I mean, they were already there with the collection of talent they had last year, you know.

So now you're adding a healthy point guard to the mix, you know, and then you add a Robin Lopez and, you know, a couple of veterans. So, you know, they'll be right there in that seven to ten mix. You know, I think that, you know, some people maybe thought they could go a little higher. I don't see them going that much higher because the east is loaded. And if somehow Hardin winds up on one of these teams like Brooklyn or Philly, then, they're really, really going to be even much more loaded. But they're right there. They should definitely be in the running for one of the playoff spots.

If they're not in the playing after what happened last year, if they're not in playing this year, then they really did something wrong. Well, I think the big variable with that too is how much did they really give a shit on defense last season? Not at all. Yeah, I mean. They were the worst defense team ever, right?

For sure, but even just on a focus level, like it really did seem like they were just trying to outscore people on most nights. They had kind of resigned themselves to the fact that that's who they were going to be. So even before we get into the personnel changes, you know, will there just be a different commitment to trying on, you know, in half the game essentially? And even for a guy like Beal, who I think can be a very competitive defender when he's locked in and engaged, when he doesn't have to score 30 a night, can he give you a little bit more on that side of it too? when you're comparing to these other teams that are going to be in the running

for the seventh and eighth and the east, I don't see any two-way juggernauts in that group. It's like, you know, can the Wizards be a better defensive team than the Hawks? I think they probably could. And so then that kind of really puts them

in that conversation and things could get interesting for them from there. Yeah, my only concern with the Wizards is that like there have been the upgrades made by other teams, you know, like you mentioned the Hornets, you know,

adding Hayward, but also adding a mellow ball. And you look at Atlanta, which, I mean, I'm, I'm pumped to see the Hawks play this year. Like, I don't know what it's going to look like, but I'm ready to see Tray Young playing with some really talented guys. And I'm excited to see what they're going to do. And really, that Southeast Division was just garbage for so long. But now, like, you know, Orlando's been good. Miami, obviously, was a conference finalist.

So that's going to be tough, you know, just to win every night there. and I think that every other team is getting better. You know, Brooklyn was a playoff team, but, you know, they're going to be a notch up above. I think Philly actually made some additions by subtractions, so they're going to be good. So it's just the East is a lot stronger. And a lot of teams that may not have been, you know,

that have been in the same mix as the Wizards, I think they made some upgrades to their roster. The Bulls, I think, should be fun. They should be a fun team to see what they do with a new coach and see how the players respond to Billy Donovan, a guy who's proved that he could be a really good NBA coach in Oklahoma City. Especially what he did last year,

and everybody thought, some people thought they weren't going to be a playoff team, and they're right there, nearly upset Houston in the first round. I mean, for those counting at home, that's now the Hawks, the Wizards, and the Bulls, the teams that we have collectively genuinely expressed excitement for. 2020 continues to surprise.

Well, one of the advantages is the Wizards have is they're two core guys. Like, they're not young. Like the Hornets are going to have to play through all of LaMelle's mistakes. The Bulls seemingly have like four guys who were just in the lottery last year. And they still need to develop those guys and like work through all that. Whereas at the very least, the Wizards had veteran talents. Like you were saying, Mike, they can count on Russ to show up every night.

Maybe Brad gives it a little bit more, especially on the defensive end. Like one thing I am worried about, though, is if they get off to a rough start, is the Bradley Beal inevitably going to have to leave town discussion going to start to pop up? Because he's been, it seems like, and you probably know it's better than us, like pretty careful about what he's saying in the aftermath of this.

He seems like he's pretty focused on, well, now we have to win. Now we have to win. But what happens if we're in February or March and they're not winning? Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's been dealing with it for a long time. I mean,

it's in like whenever a team realizes they need a star, it's like, well, on one of these lousy teams. Oh, yeah, there's Brad Bill. Let's get him. And, like, you see his name thrown out there. But I think the Wizards are going to try to do everything they can to keep him.

They feel like he's a guy they need to build around. You know, and I'm going to say something, honestly, after they traded John, even before they traded John, I honestly felt they should have traded Brad as well for his own good. Because, you know, even if the Wizards make the playoffs, let's say they make the playoffs. And they're aced. And they get Brooklyn the first round, Katie, versus. first round, let's get it. If that happens, what progress has they, have they really made? Because this is a team that came within game seven of the conference finals back in 2017. And until they get back to that point or until they get to the conference finals,

they'll never top what Brad has already done in Washington. So if you're not a team that's trying to get to the conference finals or to the finals, then what are you doing? And what do you want. And if there's ever a moment, if you're Brad, and every moment where you think, okay, I want to win big, if you think that's going to happen in Washington, why? And how are they going to go about doing that? Because I don't think that that's enough. And for, in Brad's 27, he's in his prime. He just gave one of his prime seasons away and just had an awesome year that no one even going to remember because he didn't make all-N-B-A or even make all-star team. So you're giving yourself to this franchise that's really not headed anywhere.

And like I said, we talked earlier about, you know, staying in the same place and not not abandoning a team when situations get bad. But I think that for Brad is different in that, you know, there's no pressure on him to win. Like no one's saying that, oh, Brad's got to win. But I know that Brad's a super competitive guy and he wants to win. So if you want to win, you have to ask yourself, when is it going to happen for me in D.C. And are we going to be able to get the pieces that we need to actually make that leap? Because the playoffs shouldn't be enough for him anymore. Just getting into the postseason shouldn't be enough.

We've seen Brad have monster games in the postseason. He had 38 in that game seven, I believe, against the Celtics. And so we know that when the lights are on, that he's going to step up. and perform. And we know that he's a big time postseason player because it's his show it. And if you look at the list of players who've been doing it from the jump, I mean, he's on the list of the youngest players to do XYZ in the playoffs. Look at Brad Bill's stats. He's right there. But it's got to, you ask, like, what more does he want out of his career? What more does he want out of being in Washington? And can Washington ever give him that?

And I think that that's something that he's going to have to consider, you know, going forward. because for me personally, I don't think the playoffs are enough for Brad. And he shouldn't accept that as being success anymore. And so I thought that if the Wizards had just had a clean slate, you know, the fans are already devastated by losing John. If they lost John and Brad, at least they could be like, okay, let's just start over with something new. Kind of holding on to Brad, you're just kind of keeping it going,

but you're not really moving forward. And so that's my one little thing. I thought it was good they traded John, but I don't know if they did enough to actually get the franchise in a position of where you're not just treading water. It reminds me a little bit of the Anthony Davis situation where he finally broke into the second round of the playoffs,

and he's kind of looking around like, I expect to be in the finals every year. I don't know what you guys are talking about. And so I do wonder, and the more and more I think about this, I do wonder if this is kind of the Boogie Cousins trade to New Orleans for Bradley Beale. Like, will this satisfy him for the now?

But in the bigger scheme of things, is this really going to satisfy his urge to compete on a finals level? Yeah. And I think that, you know, like I said, I mean, he made three or four playoff appearances that advanced the second round twice. And honestly,

should have been in the conference finals every one of those years. they had that Pacers team that was dealing with all their inner turmoil in 2014 Roy Hibber just forgot how to play they almost beat the Pacers that year and then the Pacers just got waxed by the heat in the conference finals was like oh why were they even there and then the very next year John Wall breaks his hand against Atlanta and you know misses I think two games three games in that series

they almost beat the Hawks which is a 60 win team and then the Hawk got there the next round and they just got dusted by LeBron again. And so, and then the 2017 era right there again. So they've, he's been really, really, really close to being a guy in the conference finals. And I mean, obviously, LeBron owned the East, so they probably weren't going to make it to the finals. But, but if you look at the way the roster's, which is Russia set up now, they got a lot of money committed to Russ. You got a lot of money committed to Brad. And they just committed a lot of money to Davis Burtz. where is the opportunity to really improve the team and what can the CILMB?

They got to really hope that these guys, they drafted in the lottery the last two years, Rui and Danny, that they come in and they can hoop because I don't see any other way for them to improve the roster. Wizards aren't known for, they won't have the free agent money anyway. They aren't known for attracting free agents. And unless there's some kind of crazy trade that they can jump in on, like this, where you have, you know, a Hall of Famer that's just available because he's in the crazy situation in Houston, where do they have the ability to get that third option or somebody else to really elevate them to being a contender? And if that's the case, if you're Brad, you're looking

down for the long term, like, do you want to just leave a legacy in Washington or do you really want to play and compete and win because I think that he can get his money and win anywhere. And his connection to D.C., I think, is different than John's. You know, because, like, John was sold to the fans as being, this is our future, this is the guy that's going to lead us to the promised land. Brad was never came into Washington with that kind of responsibility or that burden. He was brought in and is like, this is a guy that's going to help John get there. And he obviously moved beyond that and emerged as a guy who could be the player to the team wants to build around. But I don't necessarily feel like that the fans, you know, have that same kind of love for him that they said that they have for Brad.

I mean, for John. They like, they like Brad. I mean, there's a lot of fans that do love Brad, but it's not as deep. And the ties aren't as strong because he didn't have to go. John went that rough patch before Brad arrived. and Brad, pretty much he had that one rough year, but he's been winning for the most part. So it's just interesting just to see what he decides to do long term

because, you know, I don't know, like I said earlier, I don't know if the playoffs should be considered enough for him. And I know his mentality, he's not going to be satisfied with just getting first round exits. I mean, I think that's a really interesting idea that they kind of already should have explored trading him already, just because it can be so tough for teams in real time to identify the tipping point between

how do we build around this guy to how do we convince him to stay? And I don't know when that tipping point was for Brad, but it seems like we're way past it. We're now in full-on salvage mode. How can we possibly get this guy to extend or sign a new deal? It's tricky. And some of it comes down to what we've been talking about in terms of, you know,

I feel like we've made a boogeyman out of this idea of the treadmill of mediocrity, but the Wizards are in the worst place which is they're just striving for mediocrity. They're reaching desperate for mediocrity in a way. Let's get that eighth seat. Let's get that seventh seed. Please, we need that to kind of stabilize our franchise.

And it still doesn't do much to help with the appeal or relevance of the franchise. I mean, this was a team that was invited to the bubble and was not listed on any national television games. Think about this. We're in a pandemic. We're struggling for, content. We're struggling to televised games and get people to watch basketball. And they're like,

okay, who can we get on TV? Not them. Like, they were good enough to get invited and they never were on TV. Like, nobody wanted to put them on the air because like no one cares about the Wizards. And it's, it's tough. It's a tough position to be in when you have a team with a fan base is just kind of like, whatever, man. You know, these. DC loves basketball. I live there long enough to know how much the people there love basketball. They may not all love the Wizards. They love basketball. And they just, they just need a team to kind of get behind. And it's weird that there's no fans out there now. So it's, it's, this might be a fun team, but there won't be anybody in the building to notice it. Yeah, you were talking about how Russ wanted to get back to his vibes in OKC. I do wonder if by this time next year, he will practically have the new version of OKC or Scott

Brooks and it's just him leading a bunch of young guys. So we'll see how that works out. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see just how he responds to being back, you know, in Russ Moe, you know. Because like you mentioned, he did change his game to fit with James. And James is not the easiest guy to play with. Like, you know, you saw Chris Paul was able to do it and actually thrive that first year that they were together. But for Russ, you know, when he was 11 years, and it's the last three years, previous three years, he was the man. So to give up that and like say, okay, James, you be the man and I'll try to figure out, try to find my way.

That's got to be a tough adjustment. And he did it and he didn't succeed. But it's hard to give that up. Like, it's hard to give up that mentality of saying, okay, I know when I step on the court tonight, everybody's looking to me to bring it and to carry them. and to do what I have to do. I'm not really a guy who's used to being the supporting cast member, so I don't really like that role. So get me out of here so I can be back in my element.

And like I, so I think it'll be, I think it'll be good for him just mentally. I think he's in a good place right now because he's going to be back in a familiar position with familiar faces. Well, it's going to be fascinating to watch this all play out.

And I'm sure you'll be keeping track of it on the ground in DC there. Mike, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, thanks for inviting me on. I appreciate it. All right, so that's it for us. We will be back next week. Until then, we'll catch you later.