The Ringer NBA Show - Manu Ginobili Retires, the Sixers’ GM Search, and Kobe Fans vs. LeBron | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 308)

Episode Date: August 28, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and John Gonzalez react to Spurs legend Manu Ginobili announcing his retirement (0:59) and discuss the Philadelphia 76ers’ ongoing search for a new GM (16:38). Then, they examine the NBA rookie survey (30:13) and debate Kobe fans’ scruples about LeBron James (38:26). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me this week in the place of Kevin O'Connor is John Gonzalez from the Ringer. com. Hey, John. Verno. How's it going? Excellent, my man. I'm going to try and probably fail to fill KOC's big time shoes on this program, but we're going to give it an effort. I'll get to Kevin

later. Yes, we have to talk some Kevin. It has been slow NBA news for the last couple of weeks, which has been fascinated considering it seemed like there was a massive story every week for a couple weeks until yesterday when there was kind of word on the street

that Manu Genoblee was contemplating retirement, and then yesterday, he makes it official and walks away. When you first saw that Manu Genobley was retiring, what's the first thing that ran through your mind? I felt bad for Shea. We're going to pour some of Shay's tears out for Manu, who's never going to play again. I bet, I wonder if we'll hear from Shea again. He wrote a wonderful story on The Ringer.com. You can check that out right now. The really funny anecdote about what Manu meant to San Antonio writ large, and then specifically to the Serrano family, the extended Serrano family, which I I thought was pretty fantastic.

But I was just thinking about the impact that it has on that community. And then beyond that, what this means for the Spurs? I mean, is it like hard reset for the Spurs? Are they about to dip below the playoff line? Is this going to usher in the end of, say, maybe the pop and R.C. Buford era? I just wonder how many ripple effects it has when you combine it with Tony Parker leaving and then obviously Kauai getting traded. Yeah.

And you know, Manu probably looked around and he's like Tony Parker's gone and Timmy's gone. and Danny Green's gone and Kauai Leonard's gone. So it's like, I guess, like, Patty Mills is like last man standing, I guess. Yeah, Patty's the last one. Right. And then beyond that, Verno, he's 41. And as a fellow 41-year-old, I am also ready for retirement. I don't have that same luxury as him.

He can just go off and do whatever he wants. I'm going to work until I die. But I get it, man. I get it. Go do something else and have a good time. You know, he is also one of the very few guys that played with one team, his entire career. And in fact,

three guys that had played 10 years with one team are all lost this summer. Tony Parker, Manage, Nobly, and interestingly enough, DeAndre Jordan was another one. Now, Steph Curry becomes one, but here are the other ones

that have played a decade in a uniform and never changed. Dirt Novitsky 21, Eudonis Haslam 16, Mike Conley 12, Mark Gassall 11, Russell Westbrook 11, Steph Curry 10. I mean, that's incredible. You got six players in the entire NBA, six.

Yeah, it's a select group. But then on the other hand, I think to myself, like, I'm kind of surprised that there are that many and then the guys that you listed off are among them. Like, I can't believe Russell Westbrook has played that many years in the NBA already. And then beyond that, Conley and Gasol, I feel like that went quick. It went quick. And who knows with those guys, it could be over this year.

If things don't go right from Memphis, they might end up moving those guys. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it's a very select group. And there's something to be said about longevity in a sport. at an athletics writ large where that's not really something that generally ends up happening anymore so for them to make it that long with those teams

is really impressive and again it speaks to Manu and like they had an amazing run and now it feels like it's really over yeah and if you go through like the let's just say like last years we go through like top 10 leading scores right Harden he's changed teams

Anthony Davis could have a chance he could have a chance he'll probably get he might get 10 in New Orleans It'll be close. I wonder if he wants that, you know? At what point does AD look around and go, it's time for me to go?

All right, so you got LeBron. He's already moved. Lillard, I mean, there were already rumors, right? You got Lillard. What would you do with that backcore? Haley wrote about this for the ringer, yet another ringer.com, shameless plug, but it was a good piece.

And obviously your normal running mate KOC is always talking about blowing things up. Would you jettison one of them? No. You like to keep them? Here's where I come in on this kind of stuff. Tell me. They ain't the problem.

The problem's the rest of it. Yeah. The problem is Evan Turner. The problem is, you know, you said, or is Nurkich. Talk to me about the rest of the roster. Like, that's always the crazy thing. We focus so much on stars and the guys that get paid a lot of money. Tell me about how the rest of it, how you've built around it.

I mean, no lie. Who's the third guy you would take off that team? I line them up on a wall and now I take Lillard, do you take McCallum or vice versa? and now you get the third pick. Who you want? It's slim peckins. I mean, you've got, it's not all for Ricamino. They like Zach Collins.

Maybe, God, when I go, maybe it's Zach Collins. I think that tells you quite a lot. All right, so don't tell me. So that's what I'm saying. When everybody brings up McCollum and Lillard, tell me about the other 12 guys, 13 guys on the roster. We can't even decide who you're not sure who you'd pick third. I mean, if you were going to go just like right off the top of your head,

it would be Yuse of Nurkich, but I don't, I used to. love Nurkich and I've since soured on him because he is kind of what he is, right? Like he did help their defense when they plugged him in and they became a better defensive team. But he's a really traditional center in a league that continues to move

further and further away from the basket with their big. So yeah, maybe I'd roll the dice on Zach Collins, but your point is made. Your point is made. Yeah. And I'm not trying to hurt Portland fans' feelings, but I mean, that's the truth. There is no sure thing third player, much less as you

get farther than a roster. But Lillard could take it 10 years in that uniform. Janice, it's a possibility. Durant's moved, as we know. Westbrook, we mentioned. Kyrie's already moved. And then you have Lamarcus Aldridge and Victor Oladipo. And then, by the way, the next one,

DeMar de Rosen. So I guess our next chance would be Embed. He was 12. Yeah, and he had a couple of redshirt years there just to get it under his belt. But yeah, no, I mean, it's crazy that, you know, there's just such a select handful of players that get that opportunity to stay.

You have a number of things have to happen. You have to be really good. You have to be on a team that needs your services. You have to fit in with the culture and the community. And then you have to get lucky, too, in a lot of ways, right? Because even if you're winning and you're prospering with that team, it doesn't mean necessarily that you won't just be tossed into a deal. Like, we saw what happened with, say, Isaiah Thomas,

when things were still going well with the Celtics, and he felt betrayed. And we wrote a number of pieces for the ringer about how loyalty in sports is really just this fanciful concept that never really existed, right? So you do have to get lucky. too. I mean, there's a world, there's a scenario. Don't forget with the Mavericks. I mean, yeah, Dirk went 21 years, but remember before that, he was with Michael Finley and Steve Nash, and those two guys didn't make it that long. So, Dirk ended up staying and the other two guys

didn't. The other thing, you got to take less money. Yeah, sometimes. That's the story of a lot of these guys, certainly with the Spurs guys. They could have made more money if they would have gone elsewhere. Dirk could have. Dirk could have several times. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And Manu, you know what strikes me beyond the, you know, played the whole career in a uniform and we don't see him. It's going to be weird to see Tony Parker in a Charlotte uniform this year. Just is. Just like it was weird to see Patrick Ewing in another uniform or Elijah Juan or whatever. And mostly we end up forgetting that and we think of them in the jerseys that they played most of their careers. But beyond the whole playing so long for one franchise,

I am struck by the idea that I think Manu Genobley, as the years go on, he will end up being colossally underrated. That's what I think. I think people are going to look and they're going to have their arguments because, you know, you look at the stats and it's like 13 points, you know, four rebounds, four assists, whatever it is. And he played like 25 minutes on average for a career. So he did what he did in 25 minutes, which obviously enabled him to play until he's 41

years old. But the numbers, when everybody gets into numbers arguments, they're not going to tell the story of this guy. They're just not. and people are going to look at, yeah, he was part of four championship teams, but he only made two All-Star games and he only did this. And you know what I'm saying? And we will look back.

And I wondered if, tell me what you think about this. Let's say, even the, I think the year that he averages most points, it's like 19 a game, he only played 30 minutes. So, I mean, you got guys that play like 10 more minutes than that, or certainly 5 to 8. And so what if he would have played 38 minutes? that's a night. You know, what is he scoring then?

Is he a 25, 27 point per game guy? And let me get your opinion on this. Because I was talking to my buddies about this yesterday. Do you think he could have been the best player on an awesome team? Do you think that if Manu Genoblee went the hardened route? And he, instead of being a cog,

instead of being a cog, he would have gone to a team because he's actually not totally unlike Hardin, right, in the way that, you know, he's not the mega athlete, but gets by and obviously could score at a very high rate. If he would have just gone off and been the man somewhere, like he's the key guy instead of 25 to 30 minutes a game, do you think he could have been, maybe not Hardin, MVP of the league, but do you think we're talking about him as a 25 to 30 point per game scorer? I'm not sure. I think. I think. I think. I think. I think. I think. I think part of the question, the part about him being the best player on a great team, that's where

I wonder, I think, like, he was already on a great team, and what he was great at doing was being the other guy, right? Like, some, you, you mentioned it when we were talking about the Blazers, where, you know, they have two great players. Well, what about their other guys? Well, their other guys obviously aren't Manage Genobley and why he, part of the why the Spurs became the Spurs is because they had the luxury of their other guy being Manu Genobli, right? Like, he was this guy. who would come off the bench and would play 25 minutes and would do all the intangibles. And on the drive in here today, I was thinking about like, why do we love manager nobly and why is this such an outpouring of affection for him and this conversation about his career when

he was sort of, you know, a six man. And part of it was because he did all these other things. And it was all his greatness is rooted in that very thing that it's hard to figure out the one thing that he did to elevate the spurs or to be in this conversation, he was the intangible player. I mean, he was an amazing passer. And I think, like, he doesn't get enough credit for, like, those magical passes that he would throw. But it didn't really always show up in the box square. And you mentioned, you know, the best season that he had, he still didn't average 20 points

per game, you know, the most assists that he averaged in a single season still had him under five. It was 4.9. He did that a couple of times, right? But he did all these other little things. and you went, oh yeah, man, it was an amazing person to have on this team. So I don't know that I would say that he could have gone off and like carried a great team by himself, but that also was part of what made him great.

Sure. And you look, when you're talking about the numbers, he only had two seasons where he played more than 30 minutes per night, right? Gons, there were 71 guys in the NBA that averaged more than that just this year. 71. He only did it twice in a very long career from 2002 through 2017-18 season. And when you think about the way, I mean, obviously it's always hard to extrapolate. Like if we just say, hey, well, this is what he average playing 25 minutes. Is he just amazing at 25 minutes? And then if you played him at 37 minutes, that's, LeBron led the league in minutes, he played 37 minutes a night. And Jimmy Butler, and Janus were right there too. At 37 minutes a night. Paul, George, Damien Lillard, all those guys. So five guys in the league played 37 minutes a night.

What if I played him 37 instead of 25? Yeah. I don't know, right? Was he maximized doing what he did do, right? That if you played him the other 12 minutes, he wouldn't have been. It's hard to know because it's the pop effect, right? I mean, like, you play on that team and you play for Greg Popovich and you're going to, look, the spurs were way, way, way ahead of the curve in terms of like,

managing minutes loads and how many games you're playing and the effect that it takes on your body, not just for a single season, but in terms of like the cumulative effect. And then like, you know, taking some time off and taking some minutes off and scaling back for the regular season so that it can benefit you in the playoffs. I mean, they were way ahead of the curve on that. So it's impossible to know. I will say, though, that I'm like, I'm looking at this. And part of it is the pop effect. And part of it was just Manu, too, right?

because he never in his entire career played all 82 games. And there were a lot of seasons where he'd play in the 70s. But then, you know, there were multiple seasons where he was injured and he, you know, he didn't get north of 60 games or, you know, a couple where he played, you know, fewer than 50. So that's also hard to know, too. What if he had been like slightly healthier at times? What if he had played for a coach who, like you said, was going to play him more than 25

minutes per game? I don't know. I will say this. I like the way that Manners' career. panned out. We could sit here and do all these hypotheticals. But again, I think his greatness was rooted in the fact that his career zigged where everybody else would have zagged or tried to zagged. That hunger to be a harden and go be your own guy and lead your own team. He was like, nah, I'm good. I'm really good at this and I want a good team and I fit and it makes sense to me.

And I've had an amazing career and I'm cool with it. He could have done probably more. probably could have made more all-star teams if he went elsewhere, but he cared about winning the most. And I think that's, and there's something to be said for that, right? I mean, like, there are players who late in their career go ring chasing because they missed out on that.

And he found a situation early on that was perfect for him and he was perfect for them. And it was this symbiosis. And he was like, let's not fuck with something that's good. I'm going to just stay here. And, you know, good for him and good for them. It worked out great. Yeah, Bonafide, championship,

level player. And I hope that I'm wrong about like as, as the years go on, that history, I hope history remembers him as fondly as those, you know, like now, that we got to see him currently, right? That it's not one of those when, you know, because there's players that have succumbed to that from like the 80s, right? That if you didn't, or 70s or even earlier, that if you didn't see them and you weren't aware of what they did and then you go back and you're going to have the argument, or you're going to try to explain something. somebody how great a guy was that just your box score career numbers are not going to represent just how awesome he really was. Yeah. And you know what? That's that's a good point because a lot of

times I am also guilty of looking at the numbers and going, oh God, all right. Like your stupid eye test, like your uncle at a barbecue or your dad or your granddad who's like, I don't need any numbers. I can just use my eyeballs. Well, yeah, it's a combination of both. And I use the numbers as a supporting argument of what I'm seeing with my eyes. Man, there's a great point, though, because you could look at his numbers again, and they're not, flashy, and a lot of that is the pop effect that we mentioned. But if you watched him play, he was one of my favorite players to watch, and again, I'm sort of, I'll gravitate towards anybody who can throw a pretty pass, and man, could he do that?

And he was obviously just a very smart, sound, fundamental player, and I know that sounds like super nerdy and wonkish, but it was great to watch. It was great to watch. He wasn't a great defender, but everything else. about him. I love to watch. Well, certainly miss watching him for certain. All right, let's move on to the 76ers. And Adrian Wojianowski put out a story yesterday.

This used to be your calling card in Philly Gons. Yeah. I know you know this franchise. Well, the GM stories that have come out, you know, it's kind of like it was off the radar there for a while. We saw, you know, it sounded like when it first happened and everything fell through. with Colangelo, you kind of figured that they would hire somebody quickly, at least I did, but instead they went through the draft and they went through free agency without a GM necessarily entitled. The Mike Zarin name came out, as did some other names. Then the story dropped from

Mark Stein that they had talked to Daryl Morey, which was quite bizarre considering his relationship with Sam Hinkie, and that he didn't want to go there and he was staying in Houston. And now you fast forward and then it just kind of falls off the radar completely until this week and there are the stories out from the ownership there talking about general manager and kind of what they're looking for and a odd timeline to say the least. All right. So what do you what do you make of all of it? It's the Sixers, man. This is hilarious. A couple of things here. It doesn't surprise me that they put out a statement because the Sixers aren't stupid. The people who run. the Sixers aren't stupid. They made a lot of money. They're billionaires, many times over many of their

ownership groups. So with the Sixers, I think they looked at it and they went, okay, we've gone through this in the past. We've taken some heat and we don't want to take any more heat on this. So we're going to update people. So they send out this email and they're like, remember the guys who were doing stuff for us in the front office before? They're still doing stuff, but now they got new titles. So like we're still on this. It feels like packaging and branding. Like Josh Harris, I think he learned something from the disaster that happened when they got rid of or when when they forced out Sam Hinky and Hinky was like, all right, I'm going to hit the road. And like they got a lot of critical PR on that one.

And I think like in Philadelphia, they got smacked by the local media. They got smacked by the national media. And I didn't think they wanted that anymore. And I think that they realized with training camp approaching and preseason approaching that they're going to get a lot of questions about this. And so they try to jump out ahead of it. And they were like, look, look, you know, we're still on this. and we don't want to compromise on hiring a GM.

I think that was very carefully crafted language. But it made me laugh because it's like you don't want to compromise on finding a GM that you haven't found. It's like, well, we're not going to go to the prom because we're not going to compromise on who we're going to bring. So we're just going to sit at home with our 12 cats and our vat of Ben and Jerry's. And eventually they're going to have to go out and get somebody or just actually elevate either Ned Cohen or Mark Eversley or Alex Rucker to the full-time position because this sort of half-hand. measure feels very Sixers managed PR fallout. That's what it feels like. Smart time to drop it, though, because I can imagine a talk show in Philadelphia be like, yeah, and the Sixers, you know, they're undecisive about what they're going to do with their GM. So what about Carson Wentz,

right? And like, I mean, no, does anybody care, like, honestly, like this week or the next week or, you know, until it all really gets going, what do you think, or am I wrong about that? Do you think that would be a big topic in Philadelphia right now, them kind of just putting that out there, that, hey, we're figuring it out. No, right now it's not. That's what I'm saying. This all feels like very smart strategy on their part

where they're like, hey, we know you're going to get questions about it. Eventually, we're going to jump out in front of it. And, you know, in the interim, all the guys that were handling it are still handling it, but we gave them a nice pump. This feels like it was managed and packaged and they worked it over with some consultants and they're like, let's roll that out. That'll be good. Here's my thing, though, they had a window here where they should have hired somebody. Like, you would say you, you expected them to hire somebody right away after Brian Colangelo. I didn't because the timing

was so god-awful. Like, it is next to impossible to hire somebody in that window right after the season ends before the draft, before free agency, because any executive anywhere in the league, whether they're already running their own shop or whether they're an assistant, there's no chance of hiring them away if they're any good in that window because they're already, they've got their own proprietary information and their own secrets for their teams and they're prepping for the draft and they know what their board looks like and they know the free agents they're going after and they know the kind of cap space that they have and which guys are going to renounce and which guys are coming back. And it's like to unplug somebody from their situation and put them into yours would

be very difficult in that window. However, after free agency and after the draft in this summertime window before training camp begins, boom, go out and find your guy. And it makes me nervous that there were reports out of Philadelphia, a guy John Johnson, who does great reporting for WIP Sports Radio in Philadelphia, reported that his sources told him that the Sixers are thinking about rolling this hiring thing over until the 2019 offseason. Well, you've got a lot of things you've got to do next off season. That's going to be your cap window closing where you're going to go out and find a free agent or not find a free agent, and you damn world better have your general manager in place.

And if it's going to be a guy who's already in house, fine. But if it's going to be a guy that you're going to go out and get, you better find them before that because things are going to get complicated and trying to do them both at the same time doesn't make much sense to me. Do you think it greatly hurt their offseason, not having someone there? That's a yes and a no question for me,

because I look at it and go, I wasn't a huge Brian Colangelo fan and he made a lot of mistakes and moving on from Brian Colangelo makes sense to me. However, not having somebody to spearhead it. Yes, in theory it's Brett Brown and I'm great with them just like taking stuff to Brett and being like,

what do you think about this? Even though he's like not actually going out there and doing the front office duties. Yeah, I think part of it hurt them. Yes. I think not having one guy is a yes, but not having it be Brian Colangelo could have also benefited you. Because who knows what he would have done with that money? Maybe he threw it at somebody he shouldn't have.

In fairness to him, he was in a very, very difficult situation, right? Replacing somebody that became beloved by Sixers fans, he did do good with the Bellanelli and Iliasova. Like the additions he made in the middle of the season were good moves. Yeah, I'll give him credit for that. But that's also like two guys falling into your lap and way overperforming against their general production, right? I mean, like how often does that actually? happened, but sure, I'll give him credit for that.

But then you could also, like, the reverse of that is sitting on Jaliel O'Khafore and refusing to trade him during the offseason and refusing to just let him go and buy him out and instead insisting on trading him. And in order to do that, having to give up a second round pick for a guy in Trevor Booker who then you moved on from, like, that's one of the great all-time idiot, like, Y, WTF trades of general manager history. It made my brain hurt. You could have just let him go.

and instead you had to trade a second round pick to let him go. Like, tell me how that makes sense. So yes, he gets credit for certain things, but there are other little things like that that I think, like, if he had just been less prideful, he would have just found the simpler solution. It's always interesting when it comes to management because there are always people out there

that would have a very strong opinion on who they would want to coach the team and that this guy could be great for Ben Simmons or this guy could be great for Embed or this guy would excite me if they hired him. And most, I would say, majority of fans will have possibly a strong opinion on a coach. It's just not the same with a general manager or is it with you? Do you have an opinion of who they should go get? Is there a possibility that you would be greatly disappointed if they went and got blank? Well, so you mentioned like

them talking about some of the lieutenants, right? Like so obviously Mike Zarin was a hot name, assistant for Danny Angel Boston. Gershon Rosas would have been a hot name, but instead they went after Darry directly, which I think is very curious. And there's been a lot of rumors in Philadelphia that part of them trying to wait out and this whole thing about how Josh Harris is saying, we're not going to compromise, is aimed at potentially. And we were just talking about the Spurs and whether the Spurs's run is over, if they can somehow pry R.C. Buford away from San Antonio, I wonder about that. Like me personally, a Gershon Rosas would have been great. It doesn't sound like Zarin wants to go anywhere. A lot of people are talking about how

he thinks he can just, you know, wade it out with Danny. And when Danny is done, he'll just inherit the subject, which would be perfect for him. I like the idea of the next up and coming, go out and find your hanky, right? The problem is, they did, right? They previously did go out and find their hanky, and then they fucked it up. So, like, I wonder, I wonder about them, like, going out and finding the next guy, because when they were, when they got one hot light put on them by the NBA and by Adam Silver and by other owners who were like, what are you doing with this tanking? They ended up forcing out the guy who would have been perfect for them.

So I don't know. They've screwed up their general manager situation twice now, and now I'm worried about time number three. Given that the situation is unresolved, do you believe there is a chance that Kevin O'Connor has been camped out outside of the Philadelphia 76ers facility yelling, Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand. Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand in hopes that they will take him seriously and possibly name him general manager of the team.

I'm really worried about him. How close is he to having like a cardboard sign with Ben, like written with Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand and like a cop he's passing the cop and Venice Beach? Like he's on vacation right now, Verno. And while on vacation, I guess he's like touring. the conspiracy parts of his own mind for vacation because Ben Simmons went on James Corden and he pantomimed shooting with his right hand, which then sent off alarm bells in Kevin O'Connor's head.

And he made a video that he then sent out on Twitter, like basically like, you know, zooming in on Ben Simmons shooting with his right hand. And I'm like, he should be out, I don't know, like on a beach somewhere with his toes in the sand and a drink in his hand. instead he's breaking down James Corden videos. I am paranoid because I have not heard from Kevin. I don't know. I don't know where he's been.

Somebody from the ringer needs to go check on him because there is a great possibility. You know, and he's not, he does not drink. Yeah. But what if he's like in his apartment with like a whiskey glass in his hand and he's gained 60 pounds and he's got a big beard and he's just mumbling to himself? He's rattled with the wrong hand. He shoots with the wrong hand. I tried to tell him.

He's rattling around his apartment like Howard Hughes. got tissue boxes on his feet. He's just talking to himself. I'm 100% way. He might not come back. This could be the end for him and might have set him over the edge. Didn't you see the pantomime? Look at, oh God, he's on TMZ.

Look at the way he puts his arm around the Jenner. What's her name? I don't know. I don't get them mixed up. I think it's Kendall. Isaac, which Jenner is. I have no idea. I have no idea.

You don't know either? No. The reason why you are on these programs, is because you're a millennial and you should be... I'm not a millennial. I'm Gen Z. Oh, you are? Yeah, no, it is Kendall Jenner. Oh, yeah.

See? You know how I know is because I, what's her names on the cover of the new GQ? Kylie with Travis Scott. Yeah, and I read it on an airplane the other day. And evidently, like the article was saying she's the richest one. And I was like, damn.

Like, she's got more money than the rest of them. Pop culture, Jenner Talk with Verno and Gonzo. I feel like it's not going to ever be, a big podcast here at the Ringer, but we did great just now. Yeah, totally locked in on the Jenner. All right, so hopefully, hopefully what we will find out is that Kevin O'Connor is able to return,

and he is okay. But I do agree with you. It has gotten to very dangerous levels over the shooting hand of one Ben Simmons. Guys are going to take a quick break. We'll tell you by some of our sponsors. We'll be back after these words. The Ringer NBA show is brought.

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And now back to the show. All right, guys. One of the things that has happened over the course of the last couple weeks is NBA.com put out their 2018-19 NBA rookie survey and some super interesting results when they asked the rookies to vote on different things. The Kia Rookie of the Year award, the rookies voted D'Andre Aiton and Colin Sexton in a tie for winning that. I wouldn't be all that surprised. I mean, obviously those are not bizarre names by any means, right? Right.

Either of those two guys would win that. So no big deal. What was the most fascinating is when you get to the second question, which is which rookie will have the best career. And the winner of that was Wendell Carter Jr., who obviously was super impressive in Vegas. But I am a bit surprised that when all the other rookies were asked, they voted Wendell Carter Jr. Wendell Carter Jr. came out on top. That was interesting. Also interesting from who will have the best career was who was omitted. Did you notice who didn't make that list?

the guy that's already had a better career than all of them. Yeah, he's already been a professional. He doesn't do anything else, right? If he doesn't do anything else, Luca Dajic has had a better career than all of these guys. Yeah, the only professional among these guys to date was left off of which rookie will have the best career. I wonder how that happens because in the initial question about

who could end up as the rookie of the year, Luca Dach came in third behind Diannrei Aitin and Colin Sexton. So it's not like he wasn't on their mind. He got voted into that little group, that little cadre of potential rookies of the year. But then when they decided to think about it over the course of a career, he got left off entirely. He wasn't even among the guys receiving votes.

Yeah. Which rookie will have the best career? Wendell Carter won. But then tied for second, Kevin Knox, right? Which isn't all that surprising. But Jerome Robinson was shocking to me. Yeah, he plays for the clubbers, so I'm going to say no. Yeah.

Did you, real quick, real quick, real quick. What's that supposed to mean? I'll tell you exactly what I mean. Did you see, Verno, as a quick aside here, did you see Lawrence Frank talking about? I put this in Slack the other day. And poor Isaac was like, what the hell does this mean? But did you see what Lawrence Frank said the other day? I saw Isaac bitching about it, but I didn't click the video. Yeah, so, Verna, so about the clippers, Lawrence Frank the other day did this interview. This is an exact quote. Other organizations have probably made this mistake. They're always talking about the future so that they ignore. we're the guys in front of them. We want to love our guys every single day. Or put another way, the LA Clippers, who gives us shit about the future?

So I feel like when you look at Jerome Robinson, I don't have a lot of hope for Jerome Robinson. That is, obviously, listen, it is the perfect ethos for Doc Rivers as your coach. It's amazing. It's such a clippers thing to say, like, we don't think about the future.

Yeah. The one that was of the rookie survey, we'll just get to one more, because I thought this was fascinating, which rookie was the biggest steal and where was he selected in the draft? And the reason that I take this seriously, and maybe I should take this more serious, this rookie survey more seriously than I have, is they evidently, and I don't remember this, the rookies nailed Donovan Mitchell. Yeah. Last year, they had him.

Now, in fairness, it's after Summer League, and after I saw him at Summer League, me and Kevin did a whole show raving about him. I mean, he just looked so much better than literally everybody else outside of Tatum and maybe one or two other guys. But, I mean, there were Summer League games where it looked like Donovan Mitchell was like a five-time NBA All-Star, like, kind of playing in the Summer League. Yeah. He was that much better than everyone. So I guess it stands to reason that it's a little easier after you see him in that setting, and he was so dominant that you could think he was going to be a steal. But this year, they voted Keita Bates' job from Ohio State. I will tell you, there were at least two NBA executives in Vegas that told me, as job was there, that they thought that was true to, that he was the one they were surprised dropped as far as he did in the draft.

He was in the first round on boards, certainly on MOX. He was in the first round in many cases, and he almost fell out of the top 50. I mean, he went, you know, the bottom part of the second round. Yeah, he was 48 to Minnesota. therein lies another in the same way that I have my doubts about Jerome Robinson because of the organization he plays for I look at job and I go oh yeah what about the Tibbs effect though because he doesn't he plays like if Tibbs could play four guys he would play four guys you know like or three so his rotation is like that tight I just wonder how much like they'd possibly get out of him

yeah one thing I will mention because we did we did mention Luca a little bit earlier in not getting votes on who would have the best career. I happened to be in New York City this past weekend, and I walked into the NBA store. And they have, as you can imagine, I mean, you walk into that first floor. It's crazy. You've never seen more LeBron Laker gear in your life. How many did you pick up? Did you pick up some Lakers gear? I did not. But as I was walking through there, you know, they have all the jerseys and they have all like the shirt jerseys and whatnot. And so I'm going through, and it's interesting all of the players that are displayed out there. And obviously at the NBA store, they've got a million, right?

The only rookie one that I saw was Donchich. Really? They had a Donchich 77. Yes. So you didn't? He was the only rookie of any rookie in the NBA. He was the only one that I saw swag for. Weird.

So you didn't pick up Isaac, a future LA Clippers MVP, Jerome Robinson, jersey? They did not have that. They did not have Jerome Robinson. That's weird. No. Shocking. What floor would you...

If you're going to get a Clippers one, you've got to get the Gilges-Alexander, simply because of the way it looks on the back of a jersey. There's four floors at that store. What floor would you have to go to to find clipperies gear? Like the fifth floor? They have it in the back in the warehouse. They got it in the warehouse. I tell you this, the funniest was walking through there,

and they do have one of the floors, and it just says one of the sections is clearance, right? And so obviously, I walk back to the clearance. I just wanted to see what was on clearance. dude, there's like a thousand Kawhi Leonard jerseys and t-shirt jerseys. I'm talking about every variation.

You want the camo jersey. You want the... Those are going to be throwbacks in a couple years. Those will be perfect. And the only other one, like there was one rack. It was like of jerseys.

And it said clearance, right? And this rack was, I'd say there's probably 150 jerseys on it, right? maybe five Isaiah Thomas Cleveland. Oh, wow. That's going to be a collector's item. 130 Kauai Leonard in all different variations and 15 de Roses.

Did you count all 130? No, no, I did not. But that's about, I'm saying I'm roughly estimating. If there were 150 jerseys, 130 of them were Kauai, 15 of them were DeRosen, and five of them were Isaiah Thomas Cleveland. You're playing fast and loose with the reporting numbers on this. You're tossing out 130. you're telling me you're just estimating. Next time I need you to count every single one.

I've been pretty good at just eyeing it. We're about accuracy here at the ringer. There you go. So I've got a, yeah, Dantich was the only one though. And I was kind of surprised. I figured they'd have some Knox stuff. Maybe there was knocks. It was. I'm sorry. Forgive me, there was knocks. Because I remember thinking he's here because he's a Nick. The Verno reporting stories from the NBA store, huge. Oh, stop. Next time we need you to go live. We'll send you with a video camera. Absolutely. I'll tell you this.

Here you go. Here's fake news for you. Tell me more of it. I would say 75% of the people that were in the NBA store had a LeBron Lakers something. No lie. Like that's what they were in line with. I believe that. It's going to be all over L.A. man.

Can't go anywhere now. It's a perfect segue. So you've seen the Kobe stuff and you obviously did this interview with Rich Eisen recently. Genie Bus has gone out because it's this whole thing. that there are conflicted Kobe fans. Like that is a reality. That's so stupid. Right?

Because they've gone to war for Kobe for so long, and now LeBron is there, and everybody kind of says they'll warm up. And of course, Kobe's big thing, always every time he talks about LeBron, is he wants to remind everybody how many championships he's had, right? And that winning is what matters. He just is never going to let anyone forget. In the end, you can have all the arguments about Kobe and LeBron, but Kobe is going to keep on reminding you that he's got the titles and that that's what matters. And so it's his

kind of passive aggressive way of making his own argument for himself, right, when he talks about it. But I am interested in this dynamic because you guys are boots on the ground there. Generally, what do you think has been the reception of LeBron being a Laker now in L.A.? It's weird because there are the Kobe stands who are like, you know, I'm a Kobe guy and I didn't want LeBron. And I think it's just ridiculous because in general, with Lakers fans, they're all about just like mercenary championships and like how can we get it as quickly as possible. And like, let's add one more banner to the rafters. So I think ultimately what Kobe said about, the part that I thought was great was Kobe saying that his fans would fall in line being like, they'll do what I say. And they'll eventually like LeBron because I tell them.

to. But if he wins, that he threw that in. If he wins, if he wins, they'll love him. Because do you think that Kobe Bryant is rooting for LeBron James to win? I say no. That's interesting. I mean, like, you know, Kobe loves being Kobe and he loves having all those rings, as you mentioned, and he loves his place in Lakers history. So, you know, does he secretly, surreptitiously want LeBron to fail? Maybe. But ultimately for his fans, I think it's exactly this. He's LeBron, right? He's the greatest player of his era. Look, I think Kobe was amazing. He's not LeBron. And ultimately, people are going to look up when the season starts in mid-October and go, oh, shit, LeBron's in L.A., and he's wearing a Lakers jersey and how cool is this? And

everybody's going to fall in line. It's going to be fine. I do wonder, I mean, listen, I do think people are underestimating, especially in the age of social media. Do you know how many hours and whatnot have been spent by Kobe fans arguing. Like making the argument against LeBron. I mean, you're talking years. It's crazy. Of energy, you know, standing up for their guy in the argument. Right.

While the world passed them by and everybody moved on to Jordan or LeBron, they're still fighting the good fight. I don't understand it. For Kobe, you know what I mean? They're out there on the front line for Kobe still. It's pathological. I honestly don't understand. Like, that's always, to me,

felt like the sports radio hot take, like call in right now and tell us who you think is better between Jordan and LeBron or Kobe and LeBron. I've never gotten exercised about that because why can't you just go, oh, and this is like, you know, crazy nuance, but why can't you go, Jordan was very, very good and so is LeBron? Like, isn't there space to appreciate all of them in their own right for their own purposes? Why does it have to be a binary either or scenario where Lakers fans are like, no, God damn it was, it was Kobe. I don't get that. I don't understand why you get out of bed and get heated about that. Because that's what makes sports arguments fun. Yeah. That's what makes them fun. You know what I mean? Like if you can't

argue about something, you know, I mean, I remember, and this is interesting because it was a couple of weeks ago, Simmons did this podcast, and I think he was talking to Francesa, and he made this argument that I had not heard anybody really vocalized. And it was basically about baseball and that one of the things that hurt baseball was the absence of argument. When was the last time you had a baseball argument? Because the stats era just like destroyed everything. Because the, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Like the second that you start talking about, if I say, say, I'm a Cardinals fan, right? So I say, listen, there's nobody better than Adam Wayne, right, in a big game, whatever. And then people like, oh, oh, oh, or Chris Carpenter, right? He was my big game guy. Went head to head with Roy Halliday once upon a time. And that was the year they won the World Series. I say there's nobody I want a big game better than Chris Carpenter. And then I'll have people tell me, you know, what?

Well, actually his bab-ip against so-and-so and so-and-so. Like, what? It's batting average of balls in play. I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up, right? Like, I mean, I just, it, like bastardized all arguments about everything. And so you can't really have a great argument anymore. Basketball, we still get to, right? Because there's so much left beyond the stats.

Yeah. Even if we go back to the Manu thing. I promise you, we're going to look and take. 10 years and someone's going to tell you that man of ginobley isn't nearly as good as you thought he was. Yeah, yeah. And you could be like, oh, screw you. You know what I mean? I guess my point was that, like, at some point we cross over the line between discussion and debate into, like, fever pitch, like, absolute lunacy.

And that's where I think a lot of the Kobe defense lies in that weird realm of, like, you know, they've gone off their shit. And I don't get it. I don't get getting that worked up about it. You loved Kobe. He had an amazing career. Guess what? Now you also have LeBron. Just shut up and enjoy it.

It's going to be great. I hope it's great for them. It's going to be great. How could it not be great? LeBron's amazing. Well, I'll tell you that. Well, he ain't winning this year. And when he doesn't, oh boy.

That's one thing I think is interesting. Are you prepared? And I wonder if Lakers fans are prepared or LeBron fans are prepared or even the NBA is prepared for the finals without LeBron. Because I just wrote a piece saying that the team that he has right now, this weird cast of misfit toys that he's got around him, is not going to be the team that they have come playoff time. They'll make a trade.

LeBron teams always do. They ticker with the roster. It'll be something else. However, it's highly unlikely that they get past the Warriors of the Rockets and make it into the finals. And so we're like barreling towards for the first time at a very long time. It'll be eight years. The finals without LeBron sounds and feels weird.

Nah, but if it's Golden State and say Boston, you'd have an embarrassing amount of talent. Yeah. I mean, that would be crazy. assuming Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum have the careers that we think they're going to have, that would be one of those that you look back in

five, ten years, and you're like, whoa, they were loaded. Because they were inevitably not all play their entire careers in Boston. And that would be assuming Kyrie and Hayward are healthy. And then Kobe fans will go, see, told you so, he couldn't bring them there. You know, they're

waiting on that. They're sneaky waiting on that. It's I don't know if we've ever had a situation like this. Honestly, I don't know. If there's ever been a situation like this where you know deep down, there are some people not thrilled with attaining the greatest player in the world.

I don't understand it. You get to watch LeBron, and it's going to be great, and he's wearing your jersey, and he's playing for the greatest organization in NBA history, and he's one of the two greatest players in NBA history. And that should be like an automatic,

this is so exciting. Yeah, I agree. agree with you. John Gonzalez, you are the best, man. Thanks for filling in today for Kevin. And if you get a chance in L.A., go try to find him. Just make sure he's okay. Knock on his door and see if he's still breathing. Somebody check on the guy for sure. All right. Thanks, Isaac. Thanks, John. That does it for another ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week.