The Ringer NBA Show - Mark Cuban’s Comments on Jalen Brunson’s Departure and Late-Season Scheduling Woes | Real Ones

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Logan and Raja are back to discuss Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban’s recent comments on losing Jalen Brunson in free agency to the New York Knicks (1:00). Next, they talk about last night’s game between the Los Angeles Lakers and Los Angeles Clippers and the role scheduling plays in late-season matchups (26:58). Finally, the guys close out with their Real Ones of the Week (50:10). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. What's popping? Real ones Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Raja, hey buddy. How you doing? I'm good, buddy.

What's up, man? There's some best and shit going on in the NBA at this point right now, man. I just want to get right to it. I want to just talk about it really quickly. Something that I read in this, not even in the pre-pod meeting, something that I just read waking up this morning that deals with some friends of the show and also just, you know, some free agency. I'm talking about Mark Cuban doing an impromptu media availability in Dallas yesterday,

just basically was just walking around and said, hey, guys, come talk to me. Baseline prior to last night's game, Bavricks game against the Kings, and the subject of Jalen Brunson came up, Raja. And Mark Cuban was very candid about the process and why Jalen Brunson is now a New York Nick. and he basically blamed Jalen Brunson's dad, Rick, who was, who Mark Cuban said, was instrumental into bringing him into the Knicks. He also showed text messages between Mavericks' GM,

Nico Harrison, Aaron Mints, who was Jalen Brunson's agent, and basically talked about why the Mavericks aren't to blame for Jalen Brunson. leaving. I don't, we're going to, we're going to just go through all of this and the quotes and stuff. But I do want to get your take. You read the article very briefly before we got on air, Raja. What president does this set, just in the overall piece of this story, what president has said that the governor of your team is talking about stuff that happened in free agency the previous summer, and how is that going to affect not only this summer of free agencies,

free agents, but free agents classes to come in the next few years? How does this thing kind of shape into what the Mavericks got going on in the immediate future? Well, what it does to their potential free agent targets in terms of whether or not they would sign what the I don't know that it has any real ramifications there. I don't know if anyone's looking at that. Certainly, I wouldn't be sitting there as a potential free agent. If the MAVs were coming at me with a bag of cashed,

it was more competitive than someone else and saying, oh, Mark Cubans, air, and dirty laundry, you know, in the media. Like, I don't know that that would affect my decision-making, just quite frankly. But I would say it's messy. I mean, it's, you know, these aren't things that you typically see done by owners of of clubs and it speaks to you know a few days I guess

maybe slight embarrassment you know by the club and the feelings that they kind of harbor seeing what what Jalen's doing in New York and obviously paired with you know the way they're playing and the moves that they made this year to try to get better and that seems to have

backfired at least in the in the in the now so there are a lot of emotions that probably go into YCubes is doing that obviously friend of the show and I'm a I'm a fan of cubes and company but that that's that's kind of tacky I think to be out there you know showing text messages and and so on and so forth and and I mean we will get deeper into it so I'm not going to air it all right now but you know I just think that if you I can sit here as a co-host of real ones who doesn't know Jalen Brunson doesn't see him every day in practice

is not around him in team meetings don't know what he means to the fabric of your your team on a day-to-day basis. I can sit here and tell you that I am genuinely surprised at the numbers that he's putting up in New York. Me. That people in that building that were privy to all of what I just said, the ones that did see him on the day-to-day, the ones that did know how he commanded a huddle, the ones that did know what, you know, he meant to Luca and everyone else in that, they shouldn't have missed the way we missed. And by the reporting, I saw, they had multiple opportunities to extend him prior to the summer when he would have gladly taken the deal.

And they chose not to do that. So that's a miss. That's why when Mark Cuban talks about, you know, the parent aspect of this and the other blaming outside factors in this, it rings a little hollow because you had opportunities to lock this guy down. Maybe, and you could have probably locked him down for cheaper than he wound up leaving for, right? Like, if it's that early, you probably were able to do that. Mark Cuban, one of these things, and this is the real question that I want to ask you, right?

Where Mark Cuban is a quote where he says, where it went south is when Rick Brunson took over, when the parents took over. And I know you're sensitive to this because you are a child, you are a father of asking. athletes, right? Much has been made of the Jalen Brunson free agency in terms of his father's going to, you know, getting hired to the Knicks staff and having overt influence on his son. When you hear stuff like that, Raja, when you hear the coverage of that, does it give you pause at all? Or like, how are we covering the, are we, how are we covering the dad's son relationship into this?

Is it the fair route or do you see that there's a bit more nuance that we're missing? Well, I don't know how the masses in this conversation, the general we, I don't know how we are covering. I haven't, I, if anyone is trying to paint Rick Brunson into being a bad guy for getting his son paid more than he would have gotten in Dallas and to a franchise that seemingly values him and is going to use him and all of his. talents. If anyone is is labeling him as anything other than a good dad, then I don't, then shame on them. What? I mean, look, I have children. My job is to help steer them and navigate through what can be choppy waters at times. As a 25-year-old young man, you know, if one of my sons is in a relationship where, you know, he feels a certain way about it, but it's obvious to the rest of us that they might not feel the same way. And we feel like to whatever degree, and I'm not saying this

happened there. But if I feel like one of my sons is in a relationship where someone is trying to sell him a six, four, or nine, and they don't appreciate him in their actions, don't show that they appreciate him in the way that their words do, I'm certainly going to get involved and try to steer my son in the direction that I think is best for him, you know, in his future. And that is outside of the Dallas Knicks conversation, that's my job as a dad. So I'm never going to have a problem with the father, you know, like ask Mark Cuban what he would do if his son was working for a company or playing ball for somebody. And they were like, yo, we love you, bud. We love you. And his son was like, yeah, well, if you love me that much, like, you know, let's go ahead and

extend this. Let's go ahead and get it done. And they were like, yeah, just give us a second. We really love you. Like ask Mark Cuban what he do. And when I see stuff like this, I see, a governor that is probably to hear your point embarrassed. And it's just bitter about stuff that happened that you can never change, right? And also, when I hear Cuban talking about Jalen Brunson's dad, I'm thinking you couldn't, you couldn't forge a relationship with someone's father, right? Like, I just don't, I see a disconnect there because, let's be honest,

man. And this is something that, you know, maybe it's not talking about, maybe it is talked about, but there are so many different dynamics with players' parents that are just having to be navigated in the league. Like, this doesn't seem to be on the scale of things that team owners go through, GMs go through in terms of parents, this doesn't seem that big of a deal.

It doesn't seem like something that you can't. You know what I'm saying? It arises that you can't mend, dude. Like, this happens all the time. Parents of players that you guys know would love, be going at behind the scenes, it can get a little testy. So for this to come out like this, it doesn't feel like it's that big of a deal because this happens all the time. If you can't navigate that, then it's hard for you to build a team.

All of that is fair. Let me say that Mark Cuban may have just been answering a question and saying here's why this didn't happen. X, Y, and Z. He may not harbor any ill will towards Rick Brunson or anything like that. And, you know, he could just be. answering a question as to why this didn't happen. Here it is. I still think it's messy that you're showing the text messages and so on and so forth. But maybe it's as simple as that, right? You asked me a question how that Rick Brunson thing went or how the how the Jalen Brunson thing went down. Rick, Rick got involved and it didn't happen. So be it. Right. Like boom, done, done deal. What I would say again to anyone, this isn't specific to the MAVs or NBA basketball.

You take any young professional athlete and when you're dealing with them, especially in their younger, more formative years when they're learning how to become a pro. They have a team around them. That team usually consists of an agent. Is someone in camp from the family, right? Like a mom, a dad, an uncle, and someone who is there to kind of navigate. And so if, if, I mean, everybody's significant family member that is in that camp is going to help sway decision making. These decisions are not made when these players are young solely by the player and his heart. You can't do that. If you did that, you would have adult billionaires praying on young kids that don't have a ton of business savvy or experience yet

and tugging on their heartstrings to get them to play for much less than market value. So that model, no one, I mean, maybe it worked at one point, but since I've been around, people have been like, yo, man, I got an agent, I got a family member. We're making these decisions together, especially when I'm young. As I got older as a player, I was telling people what I wanted to do. Like when my agent would call me, here's what I'd like to do. All right, here's what I'm thinking. Hey, mom, dad, here's what we're doing.

They're always on board because they trust that I can make decisions for myself now. I got a family. You know, I've been through some things. business failed, X, Y, and Z. But when I'm 19, these are familial decisions. Hey, man, what do you think is in my best interest? Like, let's chop this up. Sure, I have input.

But anyone sitting here suggesting that that's solely the kid's decision and implying that the parent is a problem for helping to steer it or put input in, that's absurd. When I see when Mark Cuban does this, I'm just like, I know it isn't the right word. I don't know these people. You know, like, I don't have a vested interest personally in these. But like, maybe it's just a collective eye role because like Cube has been in this business for a long time, has navigated conversations like this for a long time. And I know this isn't the first time he's got on the phone with an agent and then a parent had or a family member had an influence on a decision making. Right.

It's called recruiting. Right. It's called this is what this is how this is the game, man. So when like, because one of the quotes was, you know, everything was good when I was talking to Aaron. and then I then it then you know Rick Brunson gets into this and then it turns it to a shit show I think your job if you want

Jalen Brunson is to mitigate that damage and figure out how to sign Jalen Brunson right like if that's who you want and I feel like there are a lot of this isn't going to go the way that I think Q thinks it's going to go like I don't think he

I don't think that I don't I just think that this is going to be where there's going to be revifications beyond this because like a lot of this stuff that he put out into the public is usually reserved private you lose a player you're not going to the media and showing text messages of why you lost said player that's just not that's not that's not good good that's not good practice in this league right so like what if say boom this is why I ask if this is going to have ramifications in the in the in future free agent

discussions because I feel like other players are going to see this and be like, yo, man, obviously the bread is always the bread. But I think other players are going to see like, man, what if, what if we talk and you're going air out, you're going to, if it goes sour, you're going to air out, you're going to do your little media availability to tarnish my name? Like, I think that there is a thing, there is something to be said to that. And it's probably not the best timing for Mark Cuban to do this, considering it's not a sure bet that Kyrie's staying, you know, you kind of want to be on your best behavior on all ways.

and not do stuff like this, especially when you are trying to make Dallas a destination, not only for Kyrie Irvin, but for any player that you want to put alongside Luca during this time period. Right. So I understand what you're saying. I don't completely agree with it. Because, first of all, you can make a mistake.

Mark Cuban can make this mistake. This is a mistake. You shouldn't air this in public, right? It's messy. You can make a mistake, and that doesn't mean you're going to continue to do that. Like, there's no real history of him doing. it before. And, you know, I think, you know, when Cubes, he's a smart guy and his team is

smart when they sit back and, you know, like, they're going to be like, they probably don't do that anymore. So I don't know that that becomes standard operating procedure for the Mavs. I do think people discount because the public and the fan is so invested in the championship and the ring that people forget that dudes, these are livelihoods and vehicles to secure. cure, you know, in a lot of cases now, generational wealth for families and pull them out of in some instances situations that that are, that are over-bearing. I mean, just completely, you know, in some instances, hopeless. So, you know, the business of it is first and foremost, the bag, bro, like, I'm telling you, like, look, is it, is it full? Is it a full bag? Is it nine-tenths full?

You give me the loaded boat. Like, listen, I don't give them, you say whatever you want about the text messages that were put out there. I also think that the Mavs, it's going to be the combination of the bag and can I play with Luca and this style of play? Does that highlight me? Can I be successful there? What does that look like for me securing, you know, the next bag or continuing to be the type of player that I think I should be in this league? I think those things are going to hold more weight than Mark Cuban coming out and doing this. as messy as I will acknowledge that this is.

I would just say another thing. You're talking about that relationship with Rick and it being kind of incumbent upon you as the club and the governor of the club to get in there and mend the relationship with the dad and make sure that you take care of it. I agree with all of that. I would just say that I've been in two situations,

albeit neither one, you know, as lucrative as this one for Jalen Brunson. And I wasn't that type of player. So, but bear with it. me on scale. One was with Mark Cuban. I played on a team in 2003 that went to the Western Conference Finals. And, you know, Dirk heard his knee and we lost Steve Kirk came out of nowhere and hit like five threes. We were sitting in a zone. You know, it was crazy. But we were a really good team. Damn you, Steve Kerr. Damn you, Steve Kerr. In that season, I had started like half of the games and played

significantly. And then in the other half of the games, like Nelly wouldn't even play me. So it was a really weird year, probably hard to tell exactly who I was as a player and all of that. But I was on a minimum deal. They had brought me back from Spain where I was on a non-guaranteed deal. And I remember sitting around like wherever the deadline is for my deal to get guaranteed. Like in January, we were in New Orleans. And I don't usually go to casinos, but I went to the casino that night just because I couldn't focus on anything other than like, is my deal going to get guaranteed at 11 p.m. whenever it was. Like I just needed a distraction.

So I just went in there and just, you know, I was going crazy. But anyway, they secured, I was kept for the year. And at the end of it, I want to come back to Dallas. I felt like, you know, that team was set up for success. I felt like I had played pretty well. I played a lot in the playoffs. I wanted to come back to Dallas. And Mark Cuban and company only,

only wanted to offer me the minimum. And I had played on two minimum deals. And I would have signed there for anything, literally anything, $1 more than the minimum. Because there wasn't a great market for me, but I would have signed. And they were like, no, minimum.

Now that's your right to do that as a club, right? But it's my right to be offended by that. Right? And so when Utah came in and was like, you, we'll give you two years for like 2.5. I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to Utah. You know? So that was the first time around the block. The next time around the block was with Utah.

After those two years, Phoenix got on my phone at 1201 and free agency, along with six other teams. Right? And five of them wanted to come in and meet and make deals and sit and chop it up. And Phoenix was like, here's a deal. robust for a player of my stature at that time, right? We're going to need a decision on that. So we go to Utah, straight up, in the middle of the night. We go to Utah like, hey, man, haven't heard from you,

have not heard from my home team yet. They've said they want to keep me the whole time. Have not heard from them. I've heard from six other clubs. What's that look like? Here's our situation. They hit me with, we'll talk tomorrow. There's not going to be a tomorrow, sir.

Well, there wasn't a tomorrow. And that worked out for Utah. I'm not saying that they lost anything and losing me. What I'm saying is at that point, you've chosen to treat me as such. I've been in your building for two years. If I meant anything to you, you would have acted in this situation a certain way. You chose not to. Now I got to do what I got to do.

And so if Jalen Bruns has been there and you've had all these opportunities and his camp is watching you repeatedly, not put your money literally where your mouth is. And it comes down to the end. And now you want to be like, oh, okay, let's, they're turned off at that point, bro. Yeah. Especially after I just helped you get to the Western Conference finals, we didn't even think we was going to get there. Like, bro, there was.

Now I got leverage. Now I got a market. And now you want to give me, no, I'm good. When you look at it from that point of view, right, let's look at the timeline, man. They were from the Mavericks point of view, there were, offers that just pale in comparison to the Knicks offer that he ended up getting, right?

And if you look at the timeline based on all the cubes, and based on Jalen Brunce's actions, it very clearly points out a timeline where it was, okay, we offer you this stuff that you don't think is really that good. You're going to play really, really well. And I'm probably offended by that, and I want to play for the Knicks.

Like, that's where we're at right now. Like, you had me in your... This is what the timeline seems to be. beat, right? Like, we stop answering the phone. We're not going to give you a number because when you had your opportunity, your offer wasn't sufficient and it was a slap in the face to us. So at that point, I'm going to play out my contract. I don't care if Nick's people come to the front row of the playoff game. It don't matter. I'm still a Dallas Maverick for now. And at this point, I've kind of already made up my mind. Well, that's fair. It happens in relationships all the time,

Logan. It's, one person loves the other one way more. And they're just waiting for that person to love them back.

Just love me back like I love you. Love me back like I love you. It's somebody that loves you back all my real ones. Okay. Let's get somebody that loves you back. Word.

But at some point, that person that's like loving you way harder than you're loving them starts to realize all that person don't love me like that. And it happens all the time. And then that person is like,

wait a minute, maybe I do really love you like that. And you're like, you know what, I've been waiting too long. I'm emotionally not invested anymore, man. I'm out. You didn't love me more. You just saw that I was about to leave.

That's what's up. And so, you know, like, again, I'm not, Mark Cuban might have just been answering a question. Maybe he felt a little, some kind of way, and he's just answering it. So I'm not saying, I'm not sitting here saying the Mavs are crying or anything like that. They might just really be trying to be forthright as to why he's not there. And that, and that's, you know, I applaud them for that in some regard.

I don't think it needs to go as far as the text messages and so on and so forth. But you should not be surprised by all that's come out that this cat, I mean, like, come on, man. I just, I understand Cuban's frustrations. And I just don't feel like you should say that publicly. And I think that's where it is. I think that's where I think, I don't think we need to do all of that, especially when your team is in the heat of a playing run or trying to get into the playing game. you could tell me that in the next off season or something.

That's a great point. Like that, the timing of this is just, I mean, it's terrible and it speaks to, it speaks to some, at least some level of, I don't want to use,

dysfunction is a very strong word. I'm not going to use that, but it speaks to some distraction and not just what the distraction of this is going to be to the players, but just general distraction within the organization right now, a lack of focus.

Yeah, I mean, and also like, and Jalen had a, I had an interview, I think a couple weeks ago with BR. And basically had said his piece or whatever. And I got to think there has to be some level of ego from Mark Cuban. And not necessarily a bad thing, but it probably comes down to the fact like, yo, man, you spoke on it?

Bad, I'm about to speak on it. It don't even matter. I don't care what we're doing. I'm going to speak on this. And this is what we have. And this is, you know, like, this shit happens. It's entertaining. know, it's cool. It provides fodder for a segment on a real ones. I like it. We're here.

Oh. It's just, but at the end of the day, it's just business. Again, it's business, man. Like, what I have liked to have been a Mavs, sure. Man, they didn't want me there. Like, it doesn't, I still love cubes. That's my guy, you know? And, and all the people. Friend of the show. Same with the Jad. Like, it's business, man. You move on. So, like, again, hopefully, that's just like, they asked the question. He was feeling a little emotional at the time, but he was genuinely just trying to answer the question. Because he'd been in too many situations.

Like, come on, man, that's just business. Let's take a quick break. Then we're going to talk about scheduling woes. The NBA season is coming down to the wire, and now is the perfect time to download FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. Because new customers get a no-sweet first bet up to $1,000.

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1-800-522-470-470 Wyoming or visit www. www.1-800 gambler.net, West Virginia. Raja, we are back, the game of the night last night. Lakers, Clippers. Clippers won it handily. Russ got his revenge, Raja. Got his revenge, all right, against a Lakers team that was playing three games

and four nights on a nationally televised game against the Clippers. They didn't get into Los Angeles yesterday until 3 a.m. And then had to play a basketball game, which, I mean, based on a circumstance. Hold up, man. Listen.

What I do? I haven't even set it up yet. But you're setting it up as a Laker fan in tone, though. And I would then ask you, like I always do, if you cry, what's the baby going to do? People get in at 3 a.m. and have to play basketball games all the time, bro. it's called professional basketball I wasn't even doing it

I wasn't even like you did bro your tone your tone was hello apologetic for the Lakers forgive me if I misconstrued it sounded like oh they had to get in at 3 a.m. And then they had to play a basketball game

that can be so difficult to do it's NBA basketball bro. You're not talking to just you're not even talking to me right now. You're talking about the complainers that were that were on the Lakers who complained about this. If you would have let me fucking set it up, Raja. I could have fucking just said by full point.

It's fair. I'm just saying. It's fair. That's fair. That's fair. LeBron said this about the scheduling. Why don't you tell him what you just told me right now? Because he was the one that brought it up and talked about how it's hard. We didn't get it until 3 a.m. We were playing three games

of four nights and this was a hard game to play. He said it like, wait, well, no, that's he said it. He didn't. I mean, that's basically the gist of what he says. I'm paraphrasing, that's basically what he said. I know, but tone is important when you're taught, when you're like the way something has said it can be important, right?

So like if again, someone is just asking the question, hey, why weren't you guys great tonight? You were like, man, that was three and four, man, we just didn't have it. That was tough. We got in late. We just didn't have it. That's not really complaining. That's simply saying.

It was one of those scheduling conflicts, James said. It definitely got the best of us tonight. That's fair. He's an older player. Like, that's a fact. coming in it three and four at that age, although I didn't play 20 years in the NBA, but in my last few years in the NBA, three and four, the last one being a back-to-back, the legs just don't respond the same way.

Now, you can't be crying about it. Again, this is professional basketball, but from the quote you read, he ain't crying about it. Now, if he was crying and complaining, then I would say, like, listen, bro, again, professional basketball. That's what every club has to do at some point. the younger ones are able to navigate that better, but it didn't sound like he was doing that.

And you could see from the jump. Like Russ and them had like three days rest, I think. Russ was flying up and down the court, pushing tempo. Russ didn't give a fuck about that rest. He was like, we're going to get up a run, baby. Let's get it. Let's do it. Yeah, because the Lakers are, I don't know,

top five, top seven team in the league in terms of pace, I think. And the clippers were on top of them, bro. they were coming at you. Did you feel some, how'd you feel seeing Russ just get it, get back in this bag? How did that make you feel, bro? Of course, I was excited to see Russ. He's damn near. You can make the argument he's saved with the Clipper season, bro.

He's in a bag. Look, I want, I'm happy for Russ because he is on a team and he's contributing and he seems like he's being valued. I don't, I don't have to be here saying, hey, Russ is the greatest player in the NBA and he's, I ain't doing, I'm not doing that. All I've been saying is like, he's a player, bro. He could play basketball. Yeah, he has some deficiencies in areas offensively that are more egregious now than they were 10 years ago. But, you know, it trips me out when people get up here and try to act like this man can't play basketball. And so I'm happy for him that he's being valued and he's able to

be contributing. Like, Russ is one of those guys that needs affirmation, not dissimilar to a lot of us in this world, right? We all want some level of that, right? And what I'm happy for is when he fucking goes to the bench or he goes to the locker room or he goes and by at large, it seems like whenever he goes to practice, they love him. They're saying, we want you on our team, pal. You're part of the fabric of this team. We love you. We're not going to, as opposed to when he was with the Lakers every day was either subliminally Russ's fault or they were or the star players were subliminally, like, getting on his head, uh,

public and privately. It doesn't seem like there's that here. And I, I really like that. I'm really happy for us that he doesn't have to deal with that shit anymore. They were on his head, man. It was,

it was, it was, it was kind of ugly. It wasn't great. This isn't anyone's fault, but this is kind of the way I see, I see this, right?

Because, you know, you're in the same town. Um, you just changed jerseys, right? So, I mean,

yeah, different fans. band base, but same media, you know, basically in town, at least. One team he went to, see, Russ is an alpha. Every clip you see a Russ, even last night when I'm watching that game, and I think this was maybe third, maybe fourth quarter when Russ was on the bench and they had Bones and Norman Powell. They couldn't guard either one of them, Norman at first half bones in a second. But like, when those guys were out there rocking, you saw Russ up, like pacing the sideline, cheering, you know, energy.

And I think Russ is just that type of player for better or for worse. When you drop him in, his inclination and his organic self is going to be an alpha, right, a leader, vocal, you know, demonstrative, leading with this energy force, not just by his play, but, you know, talking and dance and doing all the things that he does. and one situation the Clippers needed it. Like, their best players are relatively like, you know, quiet. You know? We're talking about quiet.

Quiet. Quiet, right. Well done, sir. And Paul George, like, you know, a star, but like not super demonstrative, kind of chill. You know what I mean? Like more chill personalities. And then so when you drop Russ into that, it was needed. It was appreciated.

like you know you can see people catching vibes off of him you know you could feel the energy kind of being contagious and then in the other situation you already had that in in lebron like you you have an alpha so when you try to bring another alpha and now you're asking Russ hey man don't be yourself completely and you know we talk about this on the court a lot as it pertains to playing with the lebron and people having to kind of change their game on the court but this is also this is off the court where you have to give up a little bit of your natural self if you're a Russ type of guy to allow LeBron to do what LeBron does. It's not a knock on LeBron. I mean, he's the LeBron, bro. So I'm going into that situation. I got to give up a little bit of myself. And you try to do

that, right? But now you're getting heat from the media for not being good. And the resentment just builds because you're like, yo, maybe, maybe if they would just let me be me and I could be me, maybe it would be different, but I don't even get the chance to do that, and I'm still getting roasted. Hashtag let Russ cook? Yeah, but not physically. I mean, what I'm saying is it was the perfect fit for him with the Clippers in a way that the Lakers couldn't accommodate, not just the player, but the person. That's the biggest thing, right? Because we talk about how much ability matters in the NBA.

And of course it does, right? But I don't think we talk enough about, we talk about ability and we talk about numbers and how, that that is what is required to be on an NBA team. I don't think we talk enough about institutional fit a lot in this, right? Like, Russ, on paper, that's why there's a difference between NBA 2K players and the actual NBA. It's just a totally difference, right? Where you have to have a, if he's not,

if that person is not a organizational fit, then it could basically nullify. their basketball ability, right? Like, if they can't, he can't get along with their other teammates or can't get along with the program, that's more catastrophic than anything than their ability or whatever they do. Because what happens when Russ is constantly getting talked about when he's a Los Angeles Laker? It is, he's sulking, right?

He may not go for that extra defensive possession on every time because he doesn't feel like his teammates have his back. or we get the last game of Russell Westbrook's Laker career on when he is taking shots away from LeBron, sometimes seemingly seems like out of spite in a game where he knows he's about to get traded afterwards, right? Where LeBron's going for the scoring record, but Russ is like, I'm cooking. Relax. This is my show. But I think we need to talk more about organizational fit, Raja, is all that I'm saying.

when we analyze these free agent signings, because I think the first thing we always hear, or free agent trades, first thing we always hear is, well, you know, their PER doesn't match up with the rest of the roster, or their person doesn't, you know, they can shoot three. I don't think that we see the institutional fit a lot, or we actually talk about that when people are acquired.

I would agree. I think that people behind the scenes building these teams, that's a huge deal or is organizational fit. I think that the media can gloss over that for sure. but believe me, I've been in those meetings. Like that is a real thing. Does this person fit? Can we absorb this personality into this locker room?

Or are we at our limit of that, you know? And we can't afford any more of whatever that is. That's a huge part of the team building process. I had a question for you. Yeah. What is an example of somebody that you were, that when you're in a front office, that seemed to be an organizational fit for your team

that I guess somebody had written off and you guys were like, oh, no, no, he'll fit in our group. He'll fit what we're at. J.R. Smith. J.R. Smith was with the Knicks, and, you know, things had gotten a little wonky. I don't remember exactly what was going on.

But there was a lot of debate and deliberation over whether or not at the time when I was with the Cavs, we should move. I guess it was, I think it was Dion Waiters was in that deal and someone else wound up leaving the calves and we got Amman Shumpert and J.R. But it was a lot of the fit conversation revolved around JR.

And we felt like our locker room and the way it was set up with the leadership that was in place and not really having anyone, you know, on the team, that kind of fit into the JR box, at least, I didn't know JR at the time. So, you know, I didn't know who he was or what he was about,

but just superficially, and when you're hearing these things, you're like, well, do we have a lot of guys that, if you put them together, it would exacerbate that. And we didn't, right? So we were like, we think he'll come here and be a really good version of an NBA player. And we think that culturally were set up to, to maximize his talents.

And we know that what he's doing on the court is going to help us maximize, you know, our opportunity to win games. So JR was one of those guys. And I lobbied for him. Like I was, you know, because I also, let me just tell you this. I would tell you a little quick story.

I think I've said it before. When I got into the Cleveland Cavs front office, you know, I was trying to learn on the fly. A lot of different things. You know, scouting, all of this, right? And so there's the scouting database that you can go into, plug in a name. And when you plug in the name, it will give you, you know, it'll give you a bunch of information

on the player stats and all of that. But what it'll also give you is any interview that you've done with a staff member of another team or, you know, a security guard or anyone who gave you what they call quote unquote intel on the player. And you're kind of obligated to type that up and put it in this file. So I looked myself up, right? And, you know, it was good stuff, like until I got to Charlotte. And when I got to Charlotte, it was an unnamed staff member.

that just eviscerated me to whoever in Cleveland was doing this report. They said, you know, I was this and I was that. They questioned the legitimacy of my children with my wife. I mean, this was an in detail. My God. What? Bro, I was seething. Like, and right then and there, I said, you know what, bro?

Like, we have to be better. And I said this in our meetings with the Kaz. I was like, this has to be better. Like, this can't be in people's files. This is unvetted information. it's patently false because I can tell you for a fact because it's about me, right? And they know my wife and my kids are there, right? Like, so this is, this is lunacy.

And the fact that we're putting any credence into this is beyond me. And the pushback I got was, well, we have to have some insight into who a player is and so on and so forth. And I get it. But at the same time, it can't be this. It can't be like- That's completely irresponsible though, bro. And dude, and the person is unnamed, too. That's cowardly.

Logan, I just got off a plane. I got traded. to Charlotte. I've been in Phoenix for three years. I just started a business and my wife just gave birth to my second son. Like, do you think, like, if you catch me on my first week there, like, you're going to get the best version of me? Probably not. But anyway, it's a long story to say this, as it pertain to JR. Because I understood, like, that all this information isn't necessarily the gospel, like, I'm not in there trying to talk people out of J.R. Smith because of some bullshit I heard. You know what I mean? Like that's that's that's not it. Like different people can be

you know different in different situations. And so I felt and we felt ultimately strongly that J.R. was going to be great. And he was. Oh, he was. And ultimately with J.R., like, and I guess this is a better question for you, but it did seem like during that time in Cleveland, he just seemed more comfortable. He was with his home. He was in Cleveland. He was away from New York. But he was also with LeBron. And it seemed like you guys were building a culture up there, right? Like, that's that we didn't, I don't think we appreciated it in the moment, but like, you guys seem to build like a team, team family type atmosphere.

Not to say that there weren't in trouble. Like, clearly people, like, there were some, there, it wasn't all rosy. But it seemed like there, when you look back on that, that 14, 15 team and that 1516 team, just really seemed like family vibes and that, that was really good for JR in that moment. Yeah, I think you have to give a lot of credit in terms of building the culture, obviously, to David Griffin and, you know, ownership, allowing David Griffin to do that. LeBron and what he brings in terms of stable leadership and, you know, just accountability that enters the building as soon as he gets there. And then we have really good dudes, man. Like, they were really good dudes in that locker room.

And, you know, David Griffin's staff, I was a baby. I was just learning. I didn't have shit to do it to anything. But like, you know, Trent Redding and Kobe. Altman and you know Mike Gansy and people like that who are all you know big time execs right now you know it all they all played a part in that and it was really fun to be around but it was really also eye opening I couldn't really understand being on the other side of the table right like the things that went into why you would sign me or why you wouldn't sign me and then this goes all the way

back to Russ so let me just you know as I'm sitting there you know and I have this argument all the time because I know I get on different people stuff and I hear people talking about Russ and the analytics and how he doesn't fit, and why do, and this is what always trips me out, why when you ask NBA players if they would take Russ over some guy who's analytically better, do they choose Russ? They're crazy, players don't know.

And first of all, for you to make your mouth to say that is bananas on a whole other level. Players don't know. But what I would say to you is, and this would be the way I explain it, like, if you take Russ, right, and all of his flaws, and you can put him on these teams

and he drags him and wills him and plays him into like the eighth and the seventh seed in the playoffs, right? And no, he's not winning a championship. So that's what you're going to bash him for, right? Do you know how much the players on those teams have to believe in trust and want to play for Russ for him to be able to do that? Do you know what I mean? And that gets discounted and lost in the conversation so much. Is he a fit on a team that's going to win a chance? and has all of this top heavy talent when you're going to ask him.

No, I'm not, I'm not necessarily arguing that. I'm just saying that ask people that play with him. And that'll tell you who he is. Like, because they're trying to tell you. 90%, you know, I mean, KD didn't love him. But again, KD is one of those guys that probably isn't, you know, an alpha and wants to lead. And that's okay. But ask all the other ones if they want to play with him and what he's like.

and he gets rave reviews. I will say this real quick, like on the Russ, Katie thing. I think that they're fine. I think that they have grown a lot since then, and I think it's a bit more nuanced than him just wanting to leave Russ. I think there were a lot of more factors

than him leaving Oklahoma City than just that. You know what I'm saying? I'm not going to... And they've come... And I will say they've come a long way in their relationship, but I feel like that's a bit overblown

than that, right? But like, I just wanted to just put that out there. No, I appreciate it. I agree with you. You got way more insight into that relationship. than I do. I was just using it as an example of one of the ones that didn't work out necessarily with Russ, you know? But I think there's a bigger sample size of players that you went around and you'd be like, yo, man, what was you fuck with Russ? Like, what's he like as a player? Not from the outside looking at and play every night, but on his team in the foxhole with him. You get down with Russ? And they're going to be way more to tell you, dog, all day. All day, including Kevin Durant, including all these people will say this. All the, like, That's another thing, man. Like, there's always a, and I think that was a point I was making earlier just in terms of institutional fit.

Like, I think that people could get that part confused, man, because there's always a disconnect. There is, you know, I don't want to say media narrative because, you know, media is, it's powerful. And also, you know, we try to strive and tell the most accurate picture of what's going on as possible. Right. So I don't want to, like, bash and say anything about the media or whatever. But I do think sometimes there is a disconnect in what are opinions of a player versus the opinions of people in the locker room. You know, there's another example of that is Kyrie Irving, right, where there is a clear disconnect on what people in the locker room think of him versus what is out there in terms of how the type of person he is, you know, maybe in public or things like that. We both know this.

every time you go in a locker room or every time that you've heard people at least in the league talk about Kyrie, they talk about them with glowing colors, right? Or they talk at least from a player's perspective. And, you know, at least nationally. And he, and I'm not, and I'm not defending Kyrie by any means because he has done some wild shit, including stuff that we have talked about on this podcast. But there is it, there is normally, there is, there has been instances, and he's an example of this of the, narrative being different than what's actually going on in the locker room is all I'm saying. And that also extends to Russ because a lot of people love Russ in this league. People love him. And I think that that gets misconstrued because we get frustrated by what we see on TV and the plays that he makes sometimes in a game. And I think that that overtakes what is the actual sentiment of him as a basketball player and more importantly a person. Well, well said. And therein lies some of the frustration with athletes towards media, right? because we're creating this narrative and they're living it. You know what I mean?

And so like sometimes the narratives that are, you know, promoted aren't aren't the realist, you know? And so like I've said about Kyrie, look, first of all, I don't, you know, I've got to apologize for Kyrie. Like I've, I've sit here and tell you if I think Kyrie does some dumb stuff, right, or something like we call, I'll call Kyrie out. I've also said that my interactions with Kyrie and the guy I know are a good dude. Great to my kids. Super thoughtful. Like does a ton in his community and super philanthropic has made a lot of mistakes. And we call them out for those.

But that doesn't make you a bad person, bro. That makes you a human being that's evolving and learning and trying to find, you know, meaning in your life. Like that's everyone's journey. They're just, we're doing it on a bigger stage with more lenses focused on us. And so, you know, again, you really want to know ass dudes that are around them. Not the, not the dude sitting in a suit at you on your, on your local broadcast talking shit. We'll be honest, though.

Hey, if players don't fuck with you in a locker room, they will make that shit known. Absolutely. It's all I'm saying. That, like, there's a listen to the people that are in the building. I ain't going to say no names. But I played on a team with a. with a dude that I used to have to go check on. I told him, I was talking, my wife knows him.

So we were having a conversation in the car the other day and we were kind of reflecting on it. I was like, man, you remember X, Y, and Z? I used to have to go over there after games. Nobody around his locker, head down, ice in his feet. Everybody else having a good time. And this dude just sitting there, dolo, miserable. And I'd have to go over and be like, yo, are we good, man?

You are all right, brother? Like, you know, nobody messing with him. So to your point, if they don't mess with you in a locker room, you're going to know. It is obvious. I am going to know for sure. Like I have definitely seen there's body language that y'all can't hide body language worth shit. You know that. Players can't.

Coaches can't. We'll know. But like, you know, I think that, you know, I know it got off on a tangent, but just more of like, spring some more balance. This is all I'm saying. Let's get to a real one of the week, Roger. we point out a person, entity, or an organization that just won the week. I am going to go first. I am going to go with a young lady that has been honestly my favorite basketball player over the last week.

Her name is Angel Reese. She is about all that smoke. She is, I fuck with her raps, okay? I just believe everything she says. And you should too, because. she stands on everything that she says. And she just unapologetically her, all right? And also, I just rock with what,

I just rock with her performance over the last month and all the comments that she has had over the last week standing up for herself, talking about, even going out the first lady talking about, hey, man, our LSU Tigers, we deserve to have our own stage at the White House. And we're not going to be doing this. Both teams get to come and participation trophies.

In fact, I want to have the celebration of Michelle Obama's house. That's what we're doing. So Angel Reese is about that life and about all that smoke. And she's a national champion, damn it. So shout out to Angel. Shout out to Baltimore. Shout out to everybody out there as a staff record label with a motherfucking crew. Shout out to Angel going with her.

brook. Who's your row of the week? Who's your own of the week, Rock? I mean, you stole some of my thunder there. I'm going to go with women's NCAA basketball in general. Let me just do that because, you know, typically this time of year, the women's final four is overshadowed by the men's. And I think this year, I was locked into the women's game way more than I was to the men's. And Andrew Reese was a huge part of that. You know, Don Staley, Alia Boston were a huge part of that. Caitlin Clark and what she did.

you know, was a huge part of that. And I just think that across the board, and I do appreciate the way the angel handled her business. I can also say that I appreciated the way in the aftermath when Caitlin Clark was given the opportunity on multiple platforms to shoot back. She took the, hey, man, like, they deserve it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I can appreciate all of that.

And I think, you know, Coach Mulkey back at LSU, I just think it was great. And I was here for it. I was locked in. It was super fun to watch. And I think the entity of women's college basketball is the real one of the week for me. Definitely, man. And also, I love how women's college basketball was growing.

And again, it's like, it's like how it was in the late 90s. There's personalities involved. You don't want to fuck with Don Staley and her Louis Vuitton jacket. And in a press conference. Bro, did you see the press conference at the end? She had all the smoke. Shout out to Philly. Shout out to Don.

You know, and shout out to all the real ones, man. This has been a Thursday show, Thursday edition of Real Ones. We will see you guys on Monday. Hey, man, going into the playing week. You know the fucking vibes. We're here. We locked in. We locked in.

Talk to you all soon, man. All the shit. Holla. Tap in. Ah, ha, ah, bye.