The Ringer NBA Show - Mental Health in the NBA Before and Now. Plus, DeMar DeRozan on a New Chapter With the Kings and His New Book, ‘Above the Noise.’ | Real Ones

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

Howard and Raja take a look into how the discussion around mental health in the NBA has evolved over the years. They start off by discussing the reaction back when DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love opened up about their mental health struggles (06:06), how the issue was dealt with, if at all, during Raja’s playing days (10:33), and more. After, Howard sits down with DeRozan upon the release of his new book, ‘Above the Noise: My Story of Chasing Calm,’ to discuss his signing with the Kings, entering the later stage of his career, and his personal mental health journey (42:13). Email us your questions at [e-mail]. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody. Syriot Sohey from The Ringer here, and I wanted to let you know about a new show that I'm hosting, the Ringer WNBA show. We're breaking down and analyzing the latest happenings in the W, the personalities, the people who make the league as fascinating as it is, and we're going to be featuring some of the best guests and experts from around the league. Tap in with us every Friday through the end of the season over on the Ringer NBA show feed

on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the real ones. Now we're back, senior writer at the Ringer. With me is Raja Bell, our pal Logan Murdoch, still on hiatus. We will get back to that some point soon. Raja, what's going on? How are you, man? Slow motion, Howard.

What's good with you? I'm good. It's been a few weeks since we last recorded. It may be another couple weeks before we go again. But we're going to get back to the normal cadence here pretty soon. Training camps are, my God, like two and a half, three weeks away, depending on the team. That's so crazy. I feel like my podcast form is like I would be in training camp, just rusty as shit.

No rhythm. Like just because we're not on a, you know, you're not usually, you're not on a regular playing schedule, shit like that. So forgive me if it's, if it looks like preseason, preseason me. I mean, podcasters should get the chance to like work ourselves back into season shape too, right? Yeah. You know what I should do? I should come in this effing office like every day and get some, just get some bars up.

Like if I was shooting in the backyard, just like sit down and get a lather or go through some topics. But real talk, it's weird because we're not doing it on the regular. Just like debate yourself on a blank screen. Just take out the microphone and get some reps. Get some shots up. Were you the, I'll play my way into shape during training camp? Like, because back in your day, too, like training camps, it's been a while now since they changed

But training camps used to be the entire month of October, basically. And teams were playing seven, eight preseason games. Now training camp is like three days. There's never really, I don't think they even do double days anymore. And it's like straight into exhibition games. So like you actually have to be in shape now. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I was because of the way I cut my teeth in the league,

I never really was able to get comfortable with not being in shape. Because usually, especially early in my career, I didn't know if I was going to be there for the whole training camp in all the preseason games. So, like, I couldn't use any portion of that to get into shape. I had to be the guy. And I was the guy that, like, vets would be complaining about in the first three days of practice.

I won't see any names, but I literally had people saying, hey, man, you got to, like, slow down. What are you doing? And I'd be like, hey, man, I'm trying to, I'm trying to secure a job. So that became who I was. So I would always, you know, I mean, sure there were probably times where I was in better shape than others, but I generally prided myself on coming to camp ready to hoop. And today's hooper, you remember this, Howard, like, those were two days. Those, those were two hours in the morning of

beat the, beat the hell out of you, uh, meat grinder type of practices. You'd go back. You'd have a meal. You'd try to squeeze an hour nap in. And then you were back in the afternoon. You couldn't even feel your legs and you'd do it again. And so, uh, yeah, I just couldn't afford not to be in shape for that. Yeah, this is one of the subtle ways the league has changed that doesn't get talked about much. But like, we're now guys basically do train year-round. A guy's, you know, so many guys have their own personal trainers, especially the stars. Like, nobody's using training camp to get in shape anymore. They're pretty much.

Like, it's not 100%. There are definitely guys who show up every year. You can go like, eh, you know, he obviously didn't do much upset on the beach this summer. Friend of the show, Boris D.L. was not a big proponent of like, He just, his summers were his summers, man. Like, he wanted to be in the south of France and in French Polynesia and stuff like that. And you could, that was reflected by the way he looked when he got the training camp. I only had one person ever really say something to me about what I had done in the offseason.

And it was Kevin O'Connor with the jazz in my exit interview one year. And he asked me, it was my second time in Utah after the first season. and Howard, I came in in phenomenal shape. I mean, I was as lean as I had ever been. I had made a commitment to cross-training. Like, I felt fantastic. I just was older and I wasn't playing the same way. I just wasn't the same player.

And he asked me at the exit interview. He said, hey, what are you going to do this summer? And I laid out a little planning. And he said, yeah, because clearly what you did this year didn't work. And I said, oh, my thank you, sir. Cold. But that was the only time anyone ever complained about my offseason grind. I will say, I can't exactly disagree or really argue with Boris Dio's training regimen or offseason regiment.

I get it. Like, yeah, that puts you in the hole a little bit in October, but, you know, can't argue with the offseason strategy. That's what the offseason is there for? Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, Boris was like, what good are all these millions if I can't, if I don't. don't take them and live my life with them when I have the opportunity to. So I felt it. And he, look, with any of that, Howard, you know, it's life. Like there's a ratio between how talented you are and, you know, how much you need to do to to be able to survive at the top of the field you're trying to survive in.

And Boris's ratio was just different than mine. It worked for him. Yeah. It worked for him. So later in the pod, I meant to tease this right off the top. But I got a chance to sit down with DeRosen, who is on a book publicity tour, new book out called Above the Noise, My Story of Chasing Calm. It's mostly autobiographical tracking to Marr's career, but also just his life growing up in Compton in L.A.

And all the way through USC to the Raptors, to the Spurs, to the Bulls. Oh, the story, of course, was published before he knew he was going to be signing with Sacramento, so chapters yet to be written there. But it's a really good book. I definitely recommend it for folks. But I got a chance to sit down with DeMar at the NBA store here in New York earlier in the week. So our discussion, our conversation is a little later in the pod. But, Raj, I thought this would be a really interesting thing for you and I to talk about as well. And it was, you know, obviously, we tried to work it out so all three of us could talk, did not work out timing-wise with various schedules.

But it's interesting because, like, you overlapped with DeMar's career by about, I think, two, three seasons, tail end of your career, beginning of his. And, you know, Damar is known for, among other things, obviously he's a great player and has been part of a lot of really great teams, especially in Toronto. And I think he's going to be fantastic for Sacramento. But the other aspect of his book that is a really important part of, of why I think he wrote the book. In 2018, of course, DeMar and Kevin Love separately, but within, I don't know, weeks of each other maybe, both at some point spoke publicly for the first time

about their struggles with various mental health issues and just, you know, kind of set a new path for the NBA. And I think we've seen this across sports over the last six, seven, eight years. But in the NBA, this was one of those kind of like, I don't say taboo topic. That's almost too strong. But like, it just wasn't talked about during your time. And so 2018, DeMar talks about it publicly for the first time in a sit down with Doug Smith, the reporter, great veteran reporter up in Toronto. And the conversation, I think today in 2024 is just different. So DeMar's book gets into that a little bit. There's a lot of really valuable stuff there and a lot of really interesting thoughts from him when we talked. But,

but, but, Raj, I was just curious from your standpoint, do you recall much about, like, when, when Damar and Kevin Love and others started to talk about this more publicly just a few years back or six years back? And were you struck by that given, like, this does not seem to be a public topic for you guys during, during your time? I don't know if it was even a topic that you discussed even quietly with yourselves. Well, I mean, I guess I was surprised because no one had really come out and openly, you know, talked about their struggles with that in that way. You know, I wasn't surprised because, you know, even though people hadn't really been out and, you know, sharing that with the world, like clearly people were struggling with all types of, you know, issues from the inception to time, right? And so like my basketball career was no different.

Like I played with people in high school, college, the pros, even, even, you know, myself at times have dealt with things where where you probably put them in the bucket of mental health. And at times would need someone to help you maybe sort through that. It just wasn't a it wasn't a public thing. So while I was surprised that they were out and open and sharing, like I wasn't surprised because I mean, I knew it. Like I knew it was happening. like we could see it we had people we spent so much time together like you know i'm sure your your fan has some idea but you really don't know exactly how much time you know those guys that you see on that bench or walking into that arena or actually spending together over the course of a

season i mean it's hard not to know stuff about you know intimate stuff about your teammates like that so so you would know if there were people struggling um having issues or or or you'd be you'd be you'd be Even if they didn't know it, you might have an inkling about it just because you're with them that much. Yeah. I mean, what if anything were teams doing during your time? I mean, you get in the league like 2000, your last year was 11, 12. In that time span, how common, if at all, was it for a team to have like psychologists on staff or therapist or offering guys, hey, every year in training camp, like talk about like, hey, if you have the need at some point, here's how to avail your, like, was there. any conversation like that from the team

standpoint at all? I'm trying to think. Because I remember the Bulls, right? Like, Phil Jackson used George Mumford in Chicago and then I think brought him to LA when he was with the Lakers. But I felt like even by my own recollection, like that was like they were the outliers. Yeah, I think there were

a few teams. I want to say Dallas. Dallas had, I forget the gentleman's name, but he was kind of performance coach slash you know, sports psychologist at your disposal. He spent a lot of time around the team. I don't really remember having access or recognizing that there was someone in the Philly

organization when I was a first and second year guy. But by the time I got to Dallas in that third year, I was aware that there was someone there in that capacity. Utah, I don't think so. It wasn't in every organization thing, Howard. Like this wasn't something that was that was, you know, a resource for, for every team that you went to. And it wasn't college.

I mean, you know, at that point, that was like 94, 96, 98. Basically, it was like, you know, and I fell into this bucket of having to go see somebody for anger management, right? Like, and a lot of things fell under the umbrella of, like, anger management. And, you know, I'm like, well, I mean, I'm not angry. I mean, I don't, you know, like, I did something, you know, out of anger. But generally speaking, I don't know that I'm walking. around angry, but that's what you got if there were things that someone on staff didn't know

how to deal with and they didn't know what was going on with you, you were sent to anger management. So that was their, that was the team's approach to mental health back of the day was if a guy's flying off the handle and getting techs and flagrants or, you know, being mean to his teammates, but that's the extent of their sophistication about mental health, I guess. Yeah, definitely. And again, that was college for me by the time I got my first few years in the pros, Um, you know, like I wasn't the type of player that would warrant many people, quite frankly, caring about what was going on with me.

I wasn't affecting the bottom line like that. So, you know, I was just kind of there. I can't really speak to like what was available to maybe like Michael Finley or Nick Van Exel or Tyrone. Uh, uh, uh, why can't I call Ty's name? Hill. But Tyrone Hill, sorry. Yeah, my bad tie.

But like we, I couldn't speak to what they had at their disposal and who they were dealing with. I just, I didn't know about it that much. Yeah. And so it led me to think about this. Like when DeRosen starts discussing this publicly in 2018, when Kevin Love starts discussing, and in his case, it was panic attacks. In DeRosen's case, he had tweeted, this is what kind of kicked off the whole thing. He just tweeted out of the blue one night, like this depression's got me, I can't remember the exact phrase that's depression's got me, got me down or something like that. And it just kind kicked off these broader conversations and it led it to Rosen having this sit down with Doug Smith and I think Kevin Love ended up doing something in the Players Tribune.

And I feel like, Raja, those revelations by them, the disclosures, the choice to discuss this publicly, hey, I'm a pro athlete, I'm a household name and I'm going through something right now. I may not tell you the public all of it, but I'm letting you know there's a struggle here. and I feel like in 2018, maybe just because of the way we'd all evolved as a society, but like I think the reaction was like overwhelmingly positive of, oh, man, like, you know, these guys, like this shouldn't be a shocker, but hey, these guys go through it the way the rest of us do in our lives. And obviously, fame and wealth does not solve everything. It does not,

you know, it can't necessarily make you happier and it can't necessarily solve your, your, uh, issues of stress or panic attacks or depression or whatever clinical issues. And I think there was a pretty constructive reaction by fans, by other players, in a way that I thought was really encouraging. And I feel like that's like that that's a that's an inflection point. And it has remained, I think, in that zone since. And I think probably will. Like we have we have made that leap as a league, as a society.

I wonder, like, if somebody had made that same kind of revelation publicly just out of the blue in the 90s, early 2000, like, do you, would we have been ready for it? Would the league have been ready for it? Whether the players have been, like, what would the response you think have been back then? Would people have been as, you know, supportive in that time? I don't think so. First of all, proud of those dudes for doing that, like, and, and opening up that way. And, like, just quite frankly, proud of where we are, you know, as a society,

that we could we could empathize and and and meet those kind of soul-bearing moments with like compassion and understanding and stuff like that because to your point Howard I don't think we were ready in the 90s in the 90s and early 2000s to give people that type of grace and and try to understand where they were coming from like look I've I've never dealt with a mental health professional but I've said on this pod many a time like I deal with impulse control like I it's clear. Like you can see the pattern of behavior like across, you know, my lifetime. Like I'm not, it's whatever. So there are things there that maybe I could have had dealt with. But what I got labeled as was crazy. Like that's the word they just throw around in the early, you know, late 90s, early 2000s for anyone who,

who again, an organization doesn't really understand, right? Like, why is that happening? He's crazy. And so like crazy, even in my house today, like when when someone just says, oh, he's crazy, that shit triggers me. Because I'm like, hey, man, don't, don't, like, it's not, nobody wants to be called crazy, right? Like, I might not be able to parse through these feelings and you might not understand because you're not a professional, but I'm not crazy. There's just something going on that I don't really understand, right? And I think, you know, we've come a long way in that space. What people, what, What the general person that doesn't have to go out and perform at the level that a Damar de Rosen or a Kevin Love would have to perform at, what they don't realize is the compartmentalization that has to take place in your world to go out there and perform at that level every night. And so by the nature, by the definition of that, you're suppressing a lot of things.

Like whatever is going on in your world, you're burying them and you're putting them down deep inside you so that you can go out. and perform on this stage and put out that product. And this isn't a woe as me thing. This isn't a woe as they thing. It's just a fact. At some point, if you're dealing with that much stuff and you've shoved enough of it into these like little boxes,

at some point it takes its toll on you, right? So like I think, you know, I think we're in a much better place in that regard, but we were not. We were definitely not. It's not just me. I'd probably point to like,

you know, there were guys scattered across the league. I forget what the guys. I forget what the young fellow's name was. He was still around the league when I was in the front office. He was with the Milwaukee Bucks. He was a big, long, very interesting, like kind of center. You might have had substance abuse issues or something like that.

Yeah, I know you're talking about Larry something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, look, I don't know him from Adam, but I had to do a lot of background and research and looking into him as a potential target, as it were for the Cavs when I was there. And you don't have to be a, a psychologist or a psychiatrist

to know that there's something going on there. It's not that he is, quote unquote, I hate the word, but crazy. There are some things that need to be dealt with. There were a lot of people.

I mean, if you look roster to roster across the landscape of the NBA, you could point to a lot of people where you were like, look, man, clearly there's something going on there that is unidentifiable to them. And if someone could help them work through that

and give them some tools to deal with it. Like, it might be a more stable situation. I certainly was one of them. By the way, it was Larry Sanders with the Bucks as the guy we're thinking of. So you mentioned a couple really interesting things there, Roger, including just the kind of very cavalier use. And we're all guilty of it, the cavalier use of crazy and just like kind of

throwing that around to mean a lot of things from lighthearted stuff to very, you know, serious stuff. But you mentioned that being triggering for you. Like, if you don't mind, you know, you don't have to, but obviously, but like if you're comfortable, like, what got team officials or others weaponizing that word against you? Like, was it just like the impulse control stuff and like some acting out on the court? Like, where was that coming from? Yeah. Look, I, like, I've never really done great with, I've never done great with like authority that isn't really collaborative.

it's just I just haven't done well with that right like and so you know I would get in situations as a player where between that and you know my scrap to survive mentality um I just be in shit you know like certain things that that player A may let slide um in the middle of a practice that happened to him physically from player C, well, I didn't let it slide. So now, like, I, I'm, you know, I might want to fight you because I'm like, oh, man, you fucking hit me with another elbow. Like, I don't, like, I'm not doing that. And that's just who I was. Um, it's the way I played. It's the way my brain worked. And, you know, I talk about it with one of my good friends today. Like, we're still two people that in situations where most people would be, hey, man, just let that

person get away with that. And 99% of people would be like they shouldn't get away with that. But 99% of people would let them get away with that. Like I don't let it go. Like I'm like, but that doesn't make sense to me. I don't know why. Like, why do I have to let that go when everyone knows they shouldn't do that? Like again, I don't mean to be sitting on the couch here with you, Howard, but I'm trying to explain to you like those type of interactions would get me into spaces with teams where they didn't understand what was going on with me. Right. And no one ever said to me, hey, man, can we, like, give me 10. Let's go see what's, hey, what is, what about that situation made you do that? Like, or what, how did you feel when that happened

that made you do what you did? Like, no one ever did that. I don't know that I could have articulated it, but you're just going to crazy pile, right? And so I turn crazy into like, if people don't know what they're going to get from me, then I don't really have to, you know, it's a, it's of my weapon now, right? Like, because I keep people, people don't know what I'm going to do, or at least they don't think they know. Look, you can ask anybody who knows me. I mean, I'm not, I'm not crazy. Like, I'm one of the more calm people 95% of the time. Now, there is 5% of the time where I might not be calm, but for the most part, by and large, I'm just chilling. But I took crazy and I said, well, I'll use crazy to my benefit, right? Because people are,

of crazy. And that's an advantage for me. Like if I hit this court and I have, you know, this superstar over there that thinks I'm crazy, well, that might have him just a little bit afraid in a way that is advantageous to me. So I took crazy and kind of ran with it because it, it worked for me. But like, nobody wants to be fucking called crazy. I'm not like, it always crazy, you know? No, it's, it's the kind of where they got thrown around back then for if you were maybe a little edgy, maybe little volatile on the court, right? Quick trigger, you know, unpredictable, right? Like, in your case, it seems like it was just more like they didn't know what was going to set you off in a given space. Yeah, so I'll tell you,

I'll tell you another story. Like, because I mean, I'll tell you another story. Like, this is an interesting one, right? Like, I was at Boston University. I hadn't got recruited by the coach who wound up there. I was recruited by Bob Brown, Brett Brown's dad, right? Like, great legendary coach. And then he was fired. And so I was retained by, you. Dennis Wolfe, who was coming from as an assistant at UVA. And, you know, it was probably too late for him to scramble and get a class. But I was a good player, probably playing above, you know, recruited. I was kind of playing at a level under where I should have been recruited, right?

So he wasn't, he wasn't naive to the fact that I probably was, was a little bit better than I, than that league. And so he kept me as a recruit. But what happened was every year, and this happens in programs, he would go out and try to recruit me. or stronger faster, right? And I would get in a practice with the next me and I would make it my mission to like make their life miserable. Well, if someone had asked me why I did that to like the freshman when I was a sophomore, like why I was going at him in practice, why if a coach,

if it was face cutting, let's say, right? And a coach was like, hey, we can't get face cut, guys. We can't get face cut. There's going to be a penalty if someone gets face cut. Well, guess what I would try to do to that kid over and over again in practice? Face cut his ass. Because this is a competitive environment and I'm trying to survive and thrive in it, right? And so I feel threatened to some degree because I recognize that this kid is a good basketball player. He's a little bit bigger than me. Like, he's a little bit more polished than me, maybe a higher recruit than me. And this is my survival, like, mechanism kicking in. But when I would do that and I would take on like those.

those, you know, stances and be competing in that way, it was just labeled as crazy, right? Like, he's crazy. Like, he's going to try to make this kid transfer. Like, that's, and I'm like, I didn't see that as crazy. I saw that as like, hey, man, why in God's name, what I sit here and let you recruit the bigger, stronger version of me and not compete in a way that made you realize that I was the better player? But no one ever sat and really asked me about that.

Right. Like, no one was, no one wanted to know that. They just wanted you to be what they wanted you to be. Yeah. It's, um, as you were talking about just like using it to your advantage, right? If like, if you're getting labeled like this and then it's like, okay, well, if that's going to put people on edge, like, yeah, okay, I'm going to maybe use that to my advantage. It did make me think too, and I should have mentioned him earlier, but, you know, run our test, Meta World Peace. Like is another one who I think really during his playing career, first of all, I think you could probably find a bazile. references to versions of crazy and other things that the way he was labeled early on. And again, it was the combination of intensity and volatility. But I wanted to bring him up actually because obviously years before Tamar and Kevin Love come forward and start talking about mental health, you know, shout out to, I think he was by then met a world peace with the Lakers, you know, on the night of winning the championship in 2010, you know, shouts out his therapist from the

podium. And he really in a lot of ways is like, you know, there's a lot, obviously a lot of people contributed to making this more of a comfortable conversation and a more just almost, just normal conventional. Normal is the wrong word. But just making it so that this doesn't seem unusual to discuss in a public space. So shout out to Meta World Peace for doing that as well. But he was another one of those guys who, like, if he had come up in this era. I think, and it's not that he didn't get help. Like, it's not that teams weren't trying to get him support back then.

But I do think coming in today's MBA, a similar personality type would have so much more support from day one and so much more understanding from day one and less labeling, less ostracizing. You know, it's just, like, that's the positive part of this. Well, I agree 100%. And, you know, meta was one that his talent level was so great. great that you would pour resources into trying to help him because of what he represented to like your winning and losing equation, right?

Like that was, that talent is obvious. I think that today, like so even back then, you would find a team that might ordinarily not put the resources into someone like that, put him into it. But today I think that the me's of the world that would come into the league and not affect winning and losing right away that display some of those characteristics early, I think that they have a better chance because of what you're saying, right? Like this is a normal conversation now. This is, it's okay.

We understand that it's happened into way more people than we did a decade ago. And, you know, that's very cool, right? Because I wasn't, you know, for whatever it's worth, those first things. three years. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't something that was putting me in situations with teams over and over again where they had to make a choice, whether they supported me like that, or they just cut bait with me. And I can't say definitively because it didn't happen. But there was a way higher percentage chance that a team would be cutting bait with the player of my level back then. And they would now if someone was struggling with things that a coach didn't

really understand. I want to get to the interview. But before we do, let's talk about Demar just for a few minutes as, DeMarre, the player. Damar's had a pretty damn good career for a guy who was, you know, taking ninth overall. Obviously, you know, lottery pick,

but I don't think anybody necessarily expected the kind of impact that he's had. Obviously, a bunch of great seasons in Toronto. He's made, I think, three L NBA teams, six-time All-Star.

And, you know, shocking moment for him, personally and professionally when he gets traded to San Antonio, and obviously that was the Kauai deal that sets up the Raptors to win the title. And he writes about that very thoughtfully in the book as well. So there's just there's a lot of interesting stuff

there. But so DeMarre's now made the decision here at age 35 to sign with the Kings, a team that's had a breakthrough, kind of hit a wall after the breakthrough, right? Like they just kind of plateaued. They record wise, they're about the same, but they sank in the standings as the West got better. and they're pretty well established in terms of like an offensive pecking order with Dearen Fox and Domas Sabonis. How do you see this choice for tomorrow, this choice for the Kings? His fit basketball wise is obviously he's, you know, this is one of our great, you know, maestroes of the midrange in a three point in a heavy three point era and going to a team

where like having another guy who could create a little bit and score from anywhere is actually, I think, helpful. But I have, there's been some skepticism, Raja, from the get go about his, his fit there. What do you think of Demar's fit? Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I've always said that I thought SAC needed a little bit of age in there, right? Like, now they've grown together. So all of those guys are naturally more mature and have more experience, right?

but I've been beating this drum for a few years now. They are more mature. They do have more experience. You wouldn't call them all just young pups at this point. But I do think it's good at times to throw something into the mix that isn't necessarily like in that wheelhouse. Isn't in that that demographic, if you will, in terms of age. Like there's something that's a little different, something that a deer in Fox, could go to and look for some advice in a way that, quite frankly, Malik Monk or Sabonis

wouldn't be able to provide advice for it because they just are living in the same time, basically, as you are. Like, they wouldn't be able to see it from any other perspective because of that. I think those are important things when you're building roster. So I like it from that respect. In terms of offensively, you ask 90% of 99% maybe. of basketball, true hoopers, NBA guys. Like, who are cold-blooded players?

Most of the people they tell you are going to be guys that make tough shots because it's just so cool and it's so appreciated to see a guy make a tough-ass shot over and over again. And so I'm a huge fan of his ability to consistently find and knock down tough shots. I think that fits great with Sacramento.

Now, we can get into Pennsylvania, pace and all of that kind of stuff and the time necessary for him to seek out those shots and how that relates to like what they ultimately want to do in terms of, you know, getting up and down and stuff like that. And we can have those conversations. But I've said it over and over again. When it comes down to the playoffs, maybe not games one through three in the playoffs, but certainly games four through seven, when things start getting tight and everybody knows habits, it a lot of times comes down to do you have a lot of times. Do you have have multiple dudes that can make tough ass shots.

This is above the X's and O's. This is everybody knows what you want to do. Go get me one. And do that five times in the fourth quarter. And I think he adds in spades to what they ultimately can do in that regard. Right. And so, look, I don't know what it will wind up. I'm not a great prognosticator.

Anybody who listens to this pod knows, like, that's not my strong suit. But I actually think he fits there. Now, if they're moving so far, that he can never get his feet wet offensively and he can never really get into his bag and you've marginalized who he is as a player. You know, obviously I was wrong. But just at face value, I kind of like it, Howard.

I do too, in the abstract, I like that they have another go-to offensive weapon if it's a night where, you know, Fox doesn't have it going or Sabonis doesn't have it going or you just need somebody else who can do something with the ball in their hands. And as you put out too, Roger, like, like part of the whole,

Mark of DeMarre's career is like making tough shots. And he's he's a guy who footwork-wise is right up there with some of the best we've seen at his position. I wrote about him years ago. In fact, it's funny because there's a play he mentioned specifically at the garden that he mentions in his book. And it's footwork that he had patterned after Kobe to make like, you know, turn around jumper. And Kobe had patterned his after Jordan, of course. And so the story had written for Bleach Report like eight years ago was about just the idea of this lineage and how the ghost of Jordan had kind of faded, whatever. But Kobe in that story had told me about, listen, I saw it in DeMar the other night.

And we were talking about this to the lens of Jordan. And Kobe says, I saw it in DeMar the other night. There's this play. So Kobe walks me through the play. And then I went and looked it up. And I wrote about this to lead off that story. So anyway, DeRosen, big shot maker. He did make that shot.

It was like 1.9 seconds left or whatever. win that game. And to the extent that that's part of his repertoire, well, Dierin Fox was just like, what, the first ever clutch player of the year award winner in the NBA just a year ago. So like, like, Damar's later in his career, I don't think it's not going to be one of those, oh, who gets the ball with time running down every, like he's, he's not at that stage. Like, I don't think ego is going to be proud. I don't think there's any of that. I do think that DeMar, like anybody who is a, you know, career go-to score, you have to adjust to now being probably like the third at best option. And you've got like, you know, they needed Kegan Murgi to keep taking steps and

bleak Monk's going to get his shots. Like, so I do wonder about like, I think it's going to be fine. I'm not trying to say there's going to be chemistry issues at all, but it is an adjustment. Like he's going to have to find his way there. The other thing I thought about is like, DeMarre at the stage of his career has been more, you know, forward than anything. And a lot of times, like de facto power forward, though he, started off as a shooting guard. And on that team, like, it's basically like him and Murray at the forwards, right? And Sabona says, kind of your stretch five stretch-ish, but Damar's not going to shoot a ton

of threes and doesn't shoot him at a high accuracy percentage. And Sabonis shoots a decent percentage, but doesn't take a lot of, I don't know, is it? I guess maybe spacing issues if I was going to try to flag anything. And then defensively, obviously, because this team has always struggled a little defensively. Yeah, I mean, those are valid. I think those are both valid concerns, right? Like with any team, the win or the loss hangs in the equation of whether or not you can get a team to play the way you want to play more often than they can get you to play the way they want to play, right? And I think that becomes the focus for them.

Like what is going to be the identity when we drop DeMar into this? Like what, you know, are we, are we, are we. with maybe playing a little bit more zone. Like are we, you know, just, just Howard, like, we got to get creative in ways where, because you, you know, you hit on something that was interesting and I say it a lot. You are like kids telling me, hey, I'm a point. I'm like, well, can you fucking guard a point? Because if you can't guard a point, like, I don't know that you're, I always like to,

like, you are what you can guard, dude. So like. Yeah, that's that old adage. That was a Larry Brownism, wasn't it? I don't, I don't know. Like, it could have been, like, but I might have heard it before. But like, that's what, I mean, you're what you can guard. And so if you got to be playing them at power forward,

then we're going to have to maybe get unconventional at times defensively. Do we have the flexibility to do that? And it's not a problem, but do we have the flexibility to do that. And spacing-wise, yeah, I understand what you're talking about. And, you know, my brain, whenever you ask me about whether something fits doesn't naturally go to new era basketball with the pace. It just doesn't. It's like a flaw in mind.

right it goes to uh more of a conventional old school type of game but in this new you know we're going to pace and space um you know i i think there's i think there's operational room for him around elbows you know if you're going to put sabonis deep short corner or try to lift him away from the ball you know free throw line extended and you've you've got a semi honor that you're just not going to leave him. I mean, teams might choose to do that and see if they can beat him. But I do think you can find areas when he has the ball. The question then becomes like, if he doesn't have the ball and they're not going to honor him as a true three-point shooter, then what are we going to do there? So I could see the, you know, some of the things you're talking about,

and they'll have to figure those things out. Yeah. And look, like I say, I like it for the Kings. I like it for a lot of the other, the more non-exas-o's aspects that you outlined earlier. just like, yeah, this is a team that's got some experience, but they're still on the younger side. And De Rosen's got just a ton of playoff experience and just experience period and like just having a vet there. And he's kind of walking into Harrison Barnes's role both in position and maybe locker room role. So different perspective. But, you know, and Harrison Barnes is a great vet too. But sure. I tomorrow bring maybe a little bit more to the table just in terms of, you know, skill set, obviously. So,

be interesting. I don't, you know, listen, it's, don't know that it's changing pecking order in the West. You know, I still look at it. I don't know, you know, we'll get to, as we get closer to the season, we'll start talking about, you know, all of our pointless predictions that will blow up in our faces. But like, Oklahoma, Denver, Minnesota, Dallas feels like the top four in some order. Yeah. And then, you know, you've got, you know, the sun's actually improved in the off season and if they can stay healthy and you've got, we'll see what the clippers can do without Paul George. We'll see what the Lakers can do with the exact same roster.

The Pelicans are, you know, like the Kings kind of up and coming. And, you know, I like what the Warriors did in the off season, like, not dramatic, but like I think they're still in the mix. And so Houston's rising, Memphis is jumping back in. Sacramento was a 46 win team that finished ninth last season. And I just, no matter what they get, no matter what leap is coming potentially from Kegan Murray or, you know, incremental development from Fox, whatever DeRosen brings to the table. Like, I just,

breaking through that pack is just really tough, Raja. Like, I think there's a, like, and I'm not saying there are any better or worse than most of the teams I just named. I do think there's a clear top four.

And then they're, they're in that mix, you know, five through whatever for the rest of it. But, um, I think this is one of those things where you hope things are, you hope things are going to break your way and that,

that all the, the, the misfortune, uh, is only for your, opponents for a given season. Yeah, no doubt. And I would agree. I would agree with that. I mean, like we can

like it and like them more and all of that. But the move itself doesn't take you out of that group that you're describing and put you into the group of four favorites. That's just what it is, right? So like, then the rest of it's got to sort itself out. Yeah. And we will do a lot of sorting out in the weeks to come, Russia. I think we are Hback. I love it. Yeah, I like that.

A way to go. We will be getting back. to it in another couple weeks here. Producer Kerm can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the next show is maybe around the 24th. That may be in flux. Listeners, don't hold me to it. But somewhere in a couple weeks, we will be back.

And then we will get back on our twice a week schedule, not far after that. I can't believe it, man. Training camps are right around the corner. Raja, I'm not ready for it. You and I may need more ghost reps in front of our computers with talking to microphones with nobody in the room. I'm going to practice with my cats. How about that? Handle that, man. I mean, my wife likes to argue with me, so maybe I can bring her in here.

We'll spar a little bit. You'll hand her a microphone. Head her microphone to record it. Listen back later. Those are good reps. That's a good reps. And then play it for us because, you know, we need to be amused. All right.

Stay tuned. My sit down with DeMard de Rosen is coming up next. I'm very pleased to be joined by D'Mar de Rosen here in the the NBA store. They've been very accommodating. Shout out to the NBA store. Thank you for the time. Tomar, great to see you. We were just talking about you just blew through, I think, about 100 autographs in 40 minutes. Are your wrist tired? Do you're like, no, no, no, no, no, that's all good. That was, that was, that was kind of simple. You got a lot of practice at this stage. I want to talk about the book. The book is great. Congrats on the book.

Congrats on the New Deal in Sacramento. If you don't mind to start there, actually. Because the book takes us through a lot, right? Your child. to USC, Toronto, San Antonio, Chicago. So this goes to print before the latest chapter. If we're looking a few years ahead, what do you think, I'm not asking to predict what the Kings will do with you there, but what do you think of this chapter? How do you view this next chapter of your career,

seeing as how each step, each stage, each team kind of brings its own challenges, its own era of your own development? What is this chapter about? I think, you know, having, you know, going to my 16th year, having, you know, 15 years of ups, downs, fails, success, you know, you kind of know exactly what they expect day in and day, day out, you know, when it's time to compete, you know, for something at a very, very high level, you know, nothing is new, nothing is a surprise

anymore. So for me, just kind of bridging and putting everything that you can work for every summer, every season, you kind of put it all together going into, you know, the later years of your career. You've already kind of moved into over the last several years, obviously more that leadership role, right? Because you're the vet now and you've had some younger teams you've been with. This King's team is one that's kind of like they're bumping up against it, right? They've had their breakthrough and then there's a little plateau.

Do you see a specific role in terms of not necessarily on the court, but off the court, all of it, in terms of helping them figure out how to make that next breakthrough? I 1,000%. You know, I think that's what it's all about. Just trying to find those pieces that you could put together for the team that's already, you know, establish in a sense, but sometimes missing the most important part at times. And hopefully I can come in and do my part and fill that void that, you know, I think it's definitely needed.

What do you see as different for you in this phase? Like these next, it's a three-year deal. Like, what is these three years? How is it going to be different than, you know, DeMar the rookie in Toronto or DeMar, the, you know, spur. Is it, do you approach it differently? I mean, you approach it with the window of, opportunity, you know, closing. So you don't want to take nothing for granted at all. Not a,

not a day off, not a game, not a practice, not a moment. So with that, you know, just understanding that, you know, kind of, you know, everything is at stake in a sense, but not in a pressure way, more so in a way of, you know, enjoy it, put everything into it, you know. And before you know it, you're knocking at that door, question how long you want to be able to do it. So with that, you just want to know you leaving everything out there on the court. Was that on your mind when you were thinking about where you were going next? Like, okay, this next one's probably or possibly the last stop? You would want it to be that.

You know, you want to, you know, kind of just dive all the way in rather if it's two years. And, you know, you never know what can happen. And, you know, some being on top of that as well. But, you know, focusing in and looking at it, you know, these are three years of opportunity to give everything you got, you know. And whatever happens then, you figure it out then. But, you know, from my standpoint, just looking at it, like, this opportunity at three years is just focusing and giving it all you got.

When you're 35, do you start to feel that, like, okay, I know, like, there's X number of games left. I don't know what it is or how many games, how many playoff runs. But, like, you start to feel, like, for an athlete, like, that's it, right? Like, you know that there's a hard out at some point there. Yeah, it's always a hard out. You know, you can't be naive about the fact some people die to have a, you know, 15 year plus career. You know, it don't, don't happen so often, you know, still be playing at a

high level and still be a focal point of the teams you play on. You know, that's, that's difficult, you know, so to be able to still do it at a high level, you know, you got to appreciate that more than anything. So it do cross your mind. Yeah. 16 years in, you finally get to play in your home state, not in L.A., but at least in California, how big of an appeal is that? How much is that going to be a boost for you just to, you know, friends and family can obviously get to more games, was I assume that was a pretty big part of the appeal. Definitely was. You know, majority of my career, you know, being so far away from home, you know, as you get older, it becomes more of a challenge, especially when you have kids.

Your kids getting older, kids in schools, kids in a lot of activity. You know, it's hard that, you know, how your kids come from west to the east coast at time, you know. So be a lot closer to home, you know, a 40-minute flight, you know, be closer to family and friends to, you know, be able to come to more again. games, you know, you kind of want to have that and you kind of need that, you know, on the back end of your career. You were a Laker fan growing up, so I'm sure you remember just as a fan watching those Lakers Kings series and how intense Arco Arena was back in the day. And we've seen like the Kings fans and that team obviously kind of blossom again the last

couple of years. You have a feel for like what that's going to be like, the intensity there and as they're trying to kind of recapture that kind of magic. I mean, you kind of, you kind of seen it over the last two years, just excitement that the fans have brought, you know, how engaged they've been. And, you know, it's kind of a cultural thing for them. Like you said, back in the day when they had those Lakers rivalry, you just remember that arena being one of the loudest arena's, you know, in, in, in, in, in,

NBA. So bringing that culture back of knowing that they want to win at a high level and bringing that same energy back is definitely something I want to be a part of. I think I got like some mild ear damage from those cowbells back in the day. Those things were like right on top of us. So the book, phenomenal read, by the way. Like I read this over the weekend. It's there's, you cover so much ground in here.

But I want to ask you actually, I never ask about a title. But the title really like intrigued me because so above the noise, the chasing calm, my story of chasing calm. I'm curious about like both of the phrases there. Like what is the noise and what is the calm that you're chasing? The noise is just a distraction that you, you got to maneuver through in life that could, you know, lead you down the wrong path, you know, a lot of distractions, a lot of, you know, wrong decisions, a lot of, you know, temptations that could, you know, kind of force you to go the wrong way. And you got to kind of be above that in a sense, you know, if you want to be successful,

if you want to make it out. And with that, while you're doing that, you got to find a kindness that you could kind of lean to one of those things are, you know, kind of after you. How long does that take to find? I mean, I don't think you ever find it in a sense, but I think you get close. than before, you know, you know, it's kind of one of those things that's just a complete, consistent journey that you got to be willing to, you know, take, you know, and as you get closer, you'll feel better, but, you know, sometimes it's, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when it's a full moon outside, it seemed like you could walk there, but it's a long way away, but you know, you're going in the right direction, you know, as long as you see it.

A lot of moon imagery in the book. That's, uh, I like that, having lived by the beach there in L.A. a while. Like that, that visual was really strong. I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I thought going into this book, I figured, like, definitely given your role in talking about mental health and making it a safe space or more comfortable for, for guys and league to talk about, I thought, okay, the book's going to lean really heavily into that. I think it was like page 130 something before you really got into it, because it was more chronological and you're weaving in and out of your, your life story, which I think actually provides like the premise for it, right?

Like it makes sense that it does come when it did. You know, a lot's changed in the six years, I think it's six years since you really started discussing that openly. And you do speak about it quite openly in the book. How much do you think has changed in the six years since you and Kevin Lover was right around that time and more guys since than have been able to come out and just speak openly, whether it's about, you know, stress or, you know, panic attacks, whatever it may be? Do you feel like we've come a long way in six years?

Or how far have we come? I mean, I think society as a whole has came a long way because you see more of that topic being discussed, talked about, brought up. I think just the other day I've seen, you know, commercial talking about mental health. You know, and it just shows you, you know, how far we came. You know, I just remember growing up you never seen commercials talking about mental health or would, you know, a number you could call if you suffer from, you know, these effects or, you know, so the help is there, you know, more so than ever before, you know, and that's

definitely a start. Even hearing people, you know, share their stories more and more, athletes, actors, entertainers, whoever it may be, it's more of a comfortable topic that more people are having. What do you think has changed in the NBA in that time? I mean, is the league kind of evolves with? that discussion? Do you think there's more support now? Yeah, it's a lot more support. You know, the necessity that they made, you know, having help on deck for every single team, every single person to have a

comfortability to have somebody to talk to while you're on the road or at home, traveling is there, you know, and that's big to show you how much to lead, pay attention and care about their players, and it's been big, you know, it's been very instrumental. what the leader's been able to do, you know, and offer guys the opportunity to share their stories and help other people. At the same time that that's going on, like there was a, I think it was at the Sloan conference one year where Adam Silver actually said,

like he was worried about kind of the mental health of players at large just because of different version of the word noise, but all the noise, the media, you know, social media, everything, that there's just so much coming at you guys on a daily basis that he was worried about. And this was right around that same time, I think, as when you started talking about this openly. But to the extent that you might have been concerned yourself,

seeing it every day in the locker room, like, is that concern level still there? Do you think like the league and players are finding that kind of healthy balance at this stage? Or is there a lot more work to do? Like, how do you feel about the state of things? I think it's a lot more work that needs to be done because it's a consistent change in just, you know,

society that we live in. You know, everything is so, so much. hiding than before. You know, you got social media. You got, you know, you got to constantly deal with being kind of in a spotlight, you know, when you athlete. It's hard to escape it at times. You know, before, you know, it wasn't social media. It wasn't, you know, all these headlines. Every single day you wake up and have to deal with, you know, unnecessary drama. You used to be able to escape it a little bit easier. You know, nowadays, it's just everything is so much in your feelings. You know, you know, face. You know, so finding different ways on how to cope where a lot of those situations is the biggest challenge that, you know, in the world we live in today because, you know, everything is so constant on everyday basis. So, but I think we're moving in the right direction and, you know, so many people speaking

up and speaking out, it's been great. How do you navigate that yourself on a daily basis? Have you, like, cut back on social media? Do you try to, like, block it all out? Is it possible even? Yeah, I think for me. me having the best of both worlds of, you know, being around when social media wasn't a big thing and understanding that social media isn't real, you know, kind of gives me my balance

and understanding, you know, I could escape from it and, you know, it's easy to cipher out, you know, the real from the fake. But, you know, it's a lot of guys that grow up in the social media era and they feel, you know, it's tough because, you know, you lean towards that, with everything. You know, you live in your phone in a sense. So for me, you know, it don't bother me. Is that something you can convey to younger teammates or are they like, you know, guys are just going to do what they do, right? And if you've grown up in this era, it's so normal, everybody's so plugged in. But can you get them to like, hey, guys, like, you'll feel better about everything if you can just like pull back? Yeah, it's tough. You know, it's tough because

that's like, you know, telling these young guys don't play call a duty or something. You know, It's like they, it's a need, it's a necessity in a sense. And as long as you use it the right way, it could be beneficial. I think more so expressing to them how to use it in the right way to make it beneficial, be more so helpful than anything. It's hard to just tell them, you know, don't, don't be on it, you know, because it's not going to happen. It's funny because there's always this a little bit of a contradiction that I've found over the years,

like players on the one hand, it's like, I don't read what you. guys wrote. I'm not paying attention. But then there's always like, I know people have been saying this about my game and so I'm going to do this and there are even parts of the book where you're talking about off guys were saying I couldn't do this. I couldn't be a playmaker or I couldn't shoot threes, whatever. So there's a little bit of a contradiction there, right? Like you want just enough of it to serve as like some motivation and know what people, but at the same time not get caught up in it. So that seems like a tricky balance because I know like guys, you're always looking for what is what can I use today to kind of like, you know, get me going.

So how do you strike that balance between like paying attention, but not paying too much attention. I think you use it to inform yourself by using other people critiqued to your advantage at times. You know, that's one thing I do express, you know, sometimes you, like you said, and even for me, like, one thing I always used to, listen, Jordan always told me he used to always read the newspaper. He didn't tell me personally I've read this, but he always used to read the newspaper and see what somebody had to say whether it was Flair, a reporter, and that kind of gave him the edge that he needed. And at times you could use that. You know, a lot of, you know, we live in such an opinion-based society now. You know, you can't take everything to heart.

And what you could also pick and choose pieces here and there. If it's going to help motivate you as a player to work harder, to, you know, work on your craft or do something better, you could definitely do that. But don't look at it in a sense like it's a Bible quote. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

It is a tough balance. I think. You also mentioned the book that, you know, as much as you have, like, talked publicly about mental health and therapy and, you know, people needing to, like, you know, take care of themselves in this regard, that you're not doing regular therapy on your own. People might be surprised to hear that, given how much of an advocate you've become. What is the, the, kind of just the, I don't know, the way you approach it there in terms of, like, this is something that you're clearly saying is important for you. It's important for everybody. But you're not going regularly yourself. Yeah, I think it's some, you know, everybody's different, you know,

and I think I always tell people find what works and how much of anything works for you, you know, because too much of anything could be overwhelming and not enough of some could not be beneficial, you know, so for me, it's kind of just a feel for me, kind of, when I feel like I absolutely need it, you know, then you lean towards it, you know. But that's, that's my theory That's how that's my comfort level that I find with it. And I always tell people just, just gauge it, you know, take step by step with it. You know, it's not something you got to do seven days a week if it's not called for. You know, try two days a week, you know, try once a week and see what works for you more so than anything.

I was mentioned this earlier, just the book is very autobiographical and you kind of weave in the, that, those themes, the mental health themes. Did you want to go further with that as you think there's more to say there? because it sounds like there's also parts of the book where you're talking about like, listen, I'm not sure about being like, quote unquote, the face of, you know, mental health and the NBA. Like that's a role. It seems like you've kind of like struggle with like on the one hand, you're proud of the work you've done and the awareness you've raised at the same time, not necessarily wanting to be like

the face of it, as you said. Yeah, I mean, because it's still so much that, you know, I'm still currently going through that I will go through and I'm learning that I'm trying to just to. So, you know, to me it's a complete journey, you know, and sometimes even opening up kind of dig a deeper hole where you got to even find more about yourself to try to, you know, find that kindness. So for me, it's just, it's just, I know it's so much more, you know, I got to go through and it's so much more I got to figure out. I thought it was interesting, too. You mentioned this. This is something that I've heard from guys over the years, just that, you know, you watch teammates get traded.

You get traded, obviously. It was a big, you know, dramatic moment in your career with Toronto, San Antonio, that it takes, the business can take the joy out of the game. Once you've gone through that, do you find other ways to, like, bring that back? Or is there a part where it's like, once you've, you know, once that creeps in, is it hard to, like, still retain? Yeah, sometimes you just got to go through it. You know, I know, for me, when I first got traded, it took me, took me a little while, you know.

And with that, it put me in a new, new space of me trying to search and get, that feeling that I had before back, you know, that's an example of being part of your journey. You know, sometimes you're going to climb the mountain and sometimes you're going to slip and fall. You know, you're going to just stay at the bottom and look up and not want to climb again or understand how to climb in what direction you got to take. And, you know, for me, you know, it may take a little time, but it's all right, you know, just figure it out from there. A few of the things before let you go.

There was a couple just moments in the book that I just kind of like smiled like, yeah, I don't think people realize sometimes. You mention the fact that like younger players in the league sometimes are, you know, only interested in video games you said, but sometimes more than basketball. And you would mention, I think it was a podcast a year or so ago, maybe two years ago where you had mentioned like not everybody in the league is necessarily like all 100% passionate about the game. And I think it's something I had to learn as a reporter over the years that like there's

various levels of this. Like not everybody was wired like Kobe, who I covered early in my career. Like, you know, guys are in it for all different reasons. when you speak out about that, do you think it might ruffle feathers in the locker room or across the league? I think Pat Beva, I think it said something about it too, right, around the same time you did last year on a pod. So how prevalent is that, that there are guys who are just like, they're in it because it's a great life. It's a great league, but they're not necessarily 100% committed to the game. Yeah, I mean, it's some guys that I heard personally who said the same thing.

They're not going to let basketball, you know, be. And that's, that's them, you know, like, you know, everybody don't have the same mindset in the league, you know, and if it ruffled feathers, so be it, you know, the ones who know who know know who know they are, that's, they got to deal with the fact of, you know, putting half the effort in or not really fully caring about something that's, you know, we all get a limited time to do. So, from my standpoint, you know, that's just the truth of the matter of it. You know, a lot of guys, especially a lot of older guys, definitely tell you it's a lot of people in the league who who don't passionately love the game like that. Yeah. You mentioned Pops humanity, Craig Popovich. It's just, you know, his whole family first mentality and the way that team operated. And then you said, quote, I've known coaches who barely interact with their players outside of the huddle. It might strike people as strange that that would be rare, right?

Like that this, we always think about it. It's like, oh, teams are family and all this and you're, you know, in the trenches together every day and all this. Is Pop really the outlier there? Yeah, Pop is one of those, you know, amazing individuals that you don't see too often, you know, the knowledge of the game that he has, but also, like I said, the humility that he carry as a person to be able to bring the best out of a team, you know.

He has a special way of doing that, you know. And, you know, you could watch and tell when you just, just pay attention to pop when he speak on a lot of things. You know, he looked at people as people first before anything. How much does that matter for a player? I mean, you know, it's everything because most players want to be seen more than just a basketball player. And when you can see, you know, a person for a person, that person going to give everything

he has in you to, you know, want to compete for you. And that's why he has so much success as a coach. Do you start looking for that when you start looking around? Like, you're going to play for Mike Brown now and Mike obviously won a pop disciple. himself, but also, like, he's always struck me as somebody who's got kind of that blend of, like, he can be pretty hard driving at times, but he's definitely very personable. Guy who likes to talk to his players on a level that, you know, it's not just the basket. It's not just Texas and O's.

I mean, but you just said that he came under new pop. So, you know, for me, I've been lucky to be able to play with some great, great coaches that, you know, looked at, look at players more than the players, you know, and even going and play for Mike Brown knowing he came under pop, you know, says a lot. You know, that's the first thing when I taught the pop. Pop called me when I signed a San Antonio. And, you know, he made a joke saying, you know, I'm going to tell Mike Brown to kick your ass when you get there, you know.

And that's just pop. And, you know, Mike said the same thing that, you know, he know Pop. So it's a beautiful thing. So Pop gave his stamp of approval to that particular move. Yeah. All right, I let you get out of here on this. Again, the book covers a lot of ground. Really great read.

I recommend everybody go pick it up. What is the one thing? you hope people kind of take away from the book? That is all right to have a journey. You know, everybody's journey is unique. You know, don't compare your journey to somebody else's. But with a journey, you can find success through it. You know, it's going to be tough.

It's going to be ups and downs. It's going to be bumpy roads. Accept those and grow from it. You know, that's the best, that's the best experience in life when you go through things and learn and figure out how to, you know, keep going. You know, so that's one thing I definitely will hope people. take from the book. When you get to light the beam, do they let you do that on day one? Or do you have to like that? I'm looking forward to the to you know how that works.

You know, I'm looking forward to that seeing how that work. No, that's fun. I love that they're doing that. Tomorrow's has been great. Everybody go get the book above the noise. My Story of Chasing Com by DeMard de Rosen. Tomorrow. Thanks, man. Appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you. Let's be 21 years and older 18 years and older in DC and president in select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. The gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit FanDuel.com backslash RG in Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. Call 1-800-next-N-Hep or text next step to 533342 in Arizona, 188-78-9-777, or visit cCPG.org. slash chat in Connecticut,

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