The Ringer NBA Show - Metta Sandiford-Artest on His Journey After the Malice at the Palace | The Answer

Episode Date: August 13, 2021

Seerat is joined by NBA champion and former Los Angeles Laker Metta Sandiford-Artest to talk about learning about his family’s history, growing up in Queensbridge, and listening to Nas (1:09). Then they talk about the Malice at the Palace, how his relationship with his former teammate Jermaine O’Neal has grown, and how he is enjoying being a basketball coach (22:00). Host: Seerat Sohi Guest: Metta Sandiford-Artest Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer FC is your podcast home for all things soccer on the Ringer. Join us on Monday and Thursday for Stadio hosted by Ryan Hunt and Musa Akwanga, as they cover the major European football leagues and a lot more. On Wednesday, Arsenal Legend and former England international Ian Wright hosts Ritey's House discussing the latest in European football with a rotation of special guests. Check out Ringer FC on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, welcome to The Answer with apologies to see our heads. No Chris Ryan this week.

We are giving him a much deserved break. And by break, I mean, you can catch him doing the watch if you miss him. In his stead, we have a very special guest. Meta Sandoford Artest joins a show to talk about a number of things. Talk about a number of things. You know, as he tends to want to do, I thought it was a really interesting conversation. We obviously got into the documentary that just came out about the malice in the palace in the palace that he would actually like to reframe all of that and more in this conversation.

I hope you guys enjoy it. So, I mean, there's a lot of different places that feel like the start, but one thing that you mentioned in the documentary was that, like, pretty much from the off season on, like, you knew that there was something that was up. Like, when were you starting to figure out, like, okay, there's something going on that I need to sort out? Well, I never really thought about it like that, you know, in terms of like, you know, in terms of mental health awareness and stuff like that, you're saying? Yeah, or just, just that you, like, we didn't really have a literacy for it at the time, but just that there was something going on. with you? Oh, I don't look at it like that. I look at it as, you know, when you're growing up in our neighborhoods, a lot of people, you know, in America, especially from suburban America and different places in America or even people that probably tried to oppress,

you know, African Americans, they look at it differently. Like, for example, you know, when you back in slave days, you know, the blacks that Africans that came from Africa and the slave ship, they didn't know the American language, right? We had our own language, right? And then when you fast forward that, to in the 1920s, 1900s, 1880, 1940s. And then you hear a lot of people say, you know, athletes are dumb jocks or blacks can't read. Well, imagine going to China and then trying to read Chinese book, right?

And then a lot of that, a lot of people made fun of a lot of blacks back in the days, you know, because they didn't really have the education, right? And then with that, you have to learn how to read the actual books to actually understand how to run a company, to actually understand, you know, processes, right? So then if not, if you're in China, trying to run a marketing company in China, try it, try it. Right?

So then we had to actually learn the language. So then we actually learned the language here. So with that being said, when our parents were separated, as a whole, when we were separated from our parents on the slave ship, imagine, you know, you're having a baby or your parent having a baby, and somebody's taking that baby, and you never see that baby again, right? So with that being said, the guidance wasn't there. Right.

So as a whole in our communities, it's not so much a mental health thing as much as it's a trauma issue. Right. So and then now with the new generation, I guess I'm, I guess I'm a millennial. I don't know. Or maybe a Gen Y or something like that. What year were you born? 79. 79.

Okay. Yeah, I think you're right in the middle. I'm writing the rule as well. I mean, no. But, you know, now with the, you know, now it's, you know, the type of information and now that we learn the actual language, you know, hopefully they don't spring another language on us and take us to another country. You have to, you know, get on more slave ships and learn Russia or something.

Learn Chinese. I don't know. But now we understand, like, how to, you know, communicate with each other, right? We understand how to build families and stuff. Our families are broken. So as a whole, this is not a run-out testing. This is a big, big issue. And this is something now that I took some steps back

and beat myself down for things that happen. When I beat myself down with things that happen, I'm able to see, I'm able to look at things in a different light. And I'm able to help people. when you understand yourself and when you understand your history, you're able to understand why you are how you are and you're able to get through it. And that's more, that's more of a narrative that we have to paint. You know, mental health is cool, but it's not the main narrative. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, when you look at language too, especially, like that is

something that people don't want African Americans to have access to. Like it would, you know, anybody who was trying to read or write was doing it while they were also just feeling, I'd imagine just a sense of terror about getting caught at the same time. And I still feel like there is that legacy even to this day. So it's not just like that you have to learn. It's that there is an active part of this country that doesn't want you to learn, that doesn't want you to have the tools that you need, you know? I mean, you have a point.

You have a point. And then, you know, from an education standpoint, If you're not educated and then you're not getting in school in order to make it. And nowadays, you have to be somewhat educated. So if that's not happening, then you're subject to taking a lesser job. You're subject to more stress. You still want to have a family. You have babies.

You got to pay for the babies. You got to try to keep your marriage straight. Financially, it's stressful. You know what I'm saying? And that causes issues. The kids grow up in this situation. Parents separate. Kids are sad.

Kids are depressed. You know, depression. add up and then that leads to something bigger. So mental health is, it's not just one thing. It's multiple things. Sometimes it can be genetic, but, you know, for us, it's really important to understand. I always tell people, you know, from my communities,

that you were set up to fail. So you got to understand that you are not supposed to succeed. So don't beat yourself down, you know, don't give up and different things like that. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. like when you are able to figure out why it is that the things that happened to you happened, I feel like there's two parts of it. One part of it is you have this sense of promise that you feel.

Like now I know that a lot of the things that happened weren't necessarily solely my fault, and I now have the tools to figure it out. But there's also the part of you, like, do you ever mourn for like younger, younger Ron Artes that just didn't know what was going on with him? No, not really because young Rontas is tough. Like, I'm from the streets and I'm tough, you know, like, you can get through it. It's just how we built, you know. If we were weak, then, you know, I would have been selling dope.

And I'm not saying people that sell dope is weak, and some people don't have, you know, the opportunities that I had. But, you know, from that standpoint, a lot of people that were selling dope to my friends, that's selling dope that's still locked up right now. They didn't have no option, you know, and different things like that. So, you know, with that being said, I don't mourn, I don't feel bad because we're tough, you know, we went through something

and we don't go through more stuff and we just tough. It is what it is, mentally tough. And we get through it. We know that we have a lot of obstacles in front of us and we just go towards the obstacles. We know they're there. We know they come in, you know,

But the thing I do like about today where we're at today, back in the days, you didn't really know the people that act, the other skin colors that actually supported you or that had real pure heart. I'm pure loving the heart because the narrative was painted that people were against people. So if you grow up in one community or one ethnicity, you think that you should only be with that ethnicity

and you think that other ethnicities might not like you, right? And that's how it was painted. But now you look at today is a melting pot. And some people don't like a melting pot. You know, even people on my side don't like milton pots. I know people that don't like multibots, but when you look at today as humans, it's a beautiful thing to see, you know, people from all ethnicities,

people from all nationalities do different things together, whether there's a partnership. whether it's a friendship, whether it's a relationship, right? Isn't it such a beautiful thing, right? It's such a beautiful thing. And that's the real narrative, right? That was, we was deprived of that years ago.

And still somewhat, people still try to protect little bubbles, you know, of, you know, history and culture. You know, and culture, I believe cultures are mixed thing, right? I don't believe it's one, Because if it's only one thing where you and your culture supposed to be only with you and your culture, if that's true, then we would never have made contact with each other. We would not be able to mate as humans.

So I don't believe in that. And I kind of like where we're at today. I still see people trying to throw a little messages out there to separate us, but I kind of like where we're at today. Yeah, yeah. That's a really interesting point. Like, I remember even in the documentary you talked about it, like you didn't necessarily feel like you trusted a lot of people at the time. Like, do you feel like it feels like maybe that's that's tied to what you were just talking about.

Because, you know, trust is interesting, right? Especially in our neighborhoods because we're used to having someone of your same skin color, have drama with someone with the same skin color. So from that perspective, you know, you have this shield that you kind of developed over time. time. So you just don't trust people because things that you experience. You know, but as you get older, you know, you're able to process things more. You're able to process things a little bit more easier and be more understanding and be vulnerable a little bit. I think vulnerability is a great thing. You know, I think it's a great thing to be a little vulnerable and, you know, have a little fun, like, let your guard down, you know, a little bit versus like just always,

you know, on head. I know people like that to this day that you might see, you know, their face down, no smile, you know, and just like walking straight. And that's how they feel. You know, that's how they are. Like, they just, it is what it is. And you should be able to experience a full spectrum of, you know, of your spirit, your soul, or human, I mean, human emotions, you know, happiness, sadness,

the downtown, the great times, the different things like that, versus just experiencing just one you, which is, I'm tough today every day. Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the shell just hasn't been cracked for some people yet. And I honestly, like, I always consider it a gift to have that happen to you, just allow you to sort of like keep going from there.

Like, when did you start to feel like that was happening for you? Well, being from my neighborhood, we're very proud. And I think a lot of people always try to hold a torch for Queensbridge. So with that being said, holding a torch for Queenbridge is like, that's a big thing because it's a big neighborhood. You know, a lot of energy. A lot of, it's just a big neighborhood filled with people and people's energy. Right. And whether you have drama with somebody, you don't.

don't like somebody, you love somebody, as humans, you still absorb all this energy. That's the, that's a whole other piece and part that we don't understand, right? When you're in a relationship with one person, you're just absorbing that one person's energy. But when you around thousands of people every day and everybody going to something

and you're trying to represent whether people like you or don't, you still representing that. You know, that's a happy burden. What's Queensbridge energy? Well, you know, it's a great place, but it's just, it's a great place. And, you know, I just feel like it's way more potential there than what, you know, we expose. You know, it's more potential. And it's a shame that, you know, people have to be subject to, you know, drama and violence, you know, versus education versus like raising the family versus being able and qualified to work.

it's just amazing that in New York City where we're at that not everyone, you know, has the opportunity of education and skill. And then some people just don't know how to get out and then mentally. Right. So that's why I'm always, that's why I've been attached because I was able to, I mean, I was locked in as a kid, but it was still things happening. Like anything can go wrong at any point in time. You can be shy.

You can go to jail. Police can, you know, back in the days, they used to do where, stuff out there. Anything can happen to you, you know, but you just got to get up, go out to your building, go outside, and, you know, be tough and be ready for whatever's going to come towards your way. Yeah, yeah. Who's your first white authority figure in basketball? White authority figure? Yeah, in basketball. Oh, man, a lot. When I first, Bob Reese in my neighborhood, who we love daily, Ardy Cox,

Mr. Lodge, early in the 13 years old, Carol, female from Astoria Queens. Then we had Bill Abrah, Coach V, Coach Valentino, Coach Bruno, a lot, you know, for sure. Some really good humans,

some really good humans. You know what I mean? That was in our lives that we, because this is weird because at that time, I mean, that was in 97. So we was going through stuff in 97, similar to what we go through today. But, you know, when you play for, you know,

black coach or a white coach, and I took a lot of a white coach, right? You know, it kind of erases everything that, you know, was said about, you know, I would say, like, bad, white people, whatever the case, maybe. You know, and it shows that, you know, it shows the world, you know, how it's supposed to be.

You know, it's supposed to be like, you know, black coach, coach a white kid. White coach, coach a black kid. Like, for me, it's not difficult and it's real simple. You know what I'm saying? And I don't, I kind of understand why people would be fearful of their culture or their history. or their history being, I guess, diminished. Our history has been erased for the most part. It used to be 20 million black African-Americans in America.

And now I think it's 46, me and a lot of mixed cultures now, a lot of mixed babies and stuff. But when you look at it, you ask any black in America, where they're from? They don't have to go to the website. They don't know. as any other ethnicity where they're from they can tell you where they're from

they're from Germany they're from Pakistan if they're from China if they're from Japan you know what I'm saying and the art is there you know and I also

and that's why I started to do research because even when I was so stressed I started to want to know more about myself so I needed to know about the art I needed to know about the history where we're from you know to actually get a better understanding not just me and my family

and my bloodline and we're from my neighborhood. But beyond that, right, where are we from? You know, were you ever great? You know, are you just this kid from the hood that's just dirty and just like grimy? Or did you ever, do you come from somewhere that was great once upon a time, right? You got to go back and reverse beyond the walls of, you know, slavery and oppression. You got to go beyond those walls, you know, get to the other side.

Then the grass is open. It's green. It's beauty, right? And you're like, oh, wow, this is really beautiful, right? And now you're able to attach a smile, you know, to that shield. You know, you need that. And when you have that, you know, I think that's a great thing. So, you know, with that being said, you know, that's our culture.

Everybody has their own culture, you know, and I think it's a great mix, you know. I changed my name to a Buddhist name. I'm still as ghetto as it comes, but I just like Buddhism. You know what I say? It is what it is. Right. And I think that's a great thing about where we had to. Yeah, yeah, you got the chance to like flip the narrative when you start to like really look at the history and say, oh, no, this is actually who I am.

Like it's not who everybody here has been saying who I am. How old were you when you started to go down that wormhole? Wow. Which one roll? Just, you know, reading more history. Oh, wow, that's a good question. I started to do that. I would say 2007 or eight, I started to really become interested in New York City.

is different from any other place in world, right? So in New York City, you have five percent of us. You have your other religions, you know, your big religions like, you know, Christianity and Muslim, Judaism or Jewish, you know, religion. So you have your big ones that everyone knows about. Then you have your smaller ones, like 5% nations, the Hebrew-Israelites, the God bodies.

It was so much religion coming from our skin color, I would say that, our ethnicity or whatever you want to say. Yeah. So many different beliefs and faiths that I was learning about. And then sometimes they often were arguing, debate and they don't let each other. But as I was reading on these different religions, I was getting information from everywhere. And it was really cool information. I'm like, how?

I'm like, I need to be taught this in school. So I would go uptown and just listen. to what they're saying and listening to the debates, which really opened me up. And that's how I actually really got into meditating and looking at life differently was through those debates, you know, which I really enjoyed.

So, you know, then I started to go backwards. You know, we started to go back to Israel and to see if that's where we're from. Then we go back to West Africa to see if that's where we're really from. Like all that stuff is so important to search because it's not easy. It's not easy for us to find out where we're from.

They don't make it easy. Right. So you just have to search and then use your imagination, right, to kind of put it together. Yeah. Did you ever tie back learning about like the five percenters and God body and all that stuff? Like I know you listen to Nas.

Like was there a point where you were like, oh, wait, like this is actually something I know about already. in some sense. Well, you know, when you listen into Nas, Nas is like, he's the upper echelon. He's from the hood, right?

He's definitely, but he's like the upper. For anybody who doesn't know, he's from Queensbridge. Yeah, Nazis from Queensbridge. Dad was born somewhere else and raised Naz Nassah, brothers from Queensbridge. But Nass is like the upper echelon of, like, ethnicity.

Like, you know what I'm saying? He's teaching you at a high level, like a beautiful level, right? But before that, we always heard, we know where kind of Nas got those teachings from was the people that were surrounding him, right? And you had multiple faith and beliefs that were surrounding us. We all made contact. When you hear it through the music, not only hear it through Nas, but you hear it through tragedy, different artists, but from Queensbridge.

You hear from Kormega from more of a, you know, more of a hustle side. Nass was gave you a big picture of the hustler side of the ethnicity of the culture, of what to look out for, you know, and who, why you feel, how you feel, you know, and that type of stuff, you know, you start to put that music with what you're learning years later. You're like, oh, wow, Nass said, Nottis used to say this, right? And that was 1995 or three, maybe 1990. And then in 2007, you started putting things together. Like, wow, he was way beyond his time.

And he still rocking. And he had such a, you know, like those albums, they had such a visceral style to them, too, where, like, he kind of put you where he was. Like, there were, like, a lot of just, like, the sounds or just like sounds of the neighborhood and stuff like that. I mean, that's just, I mean, he's, you know, he's not, right? What we're more can you say? I do want to take this a little bit back to back to, back to,

to what happened in the palace. When you started reading and like sort of relearning everything, like did that help you reframe what happened that night? That night is weird because that night somebody just hit me so, you know. Right. That night is weird because

it's big news. I'm not about to get caught up in what's big news and what's big media. And I went into a locker room and I asked Jane and Stephen do you think we're going to get in trouble. Because I, you know, I have fights with people. before. Like, I've never got in trouble for someone that hit me and I hit them back. You know what I'm saying? But in big media, that's a different ball game. Yeah, you don't,

you don't run into the stands. And I can see why you don't run into the stands, you know. Yeah. People don't know what was in that cup. What do you mean? When I hit the cup, right, the bro, I started the old bro. Right. Did you, did you feel like there was something else in that cup? I'm saying people don't know what was in the cup. Yeah, I guess you don't even know, right? Nobody knows what's in the cup to this day.

Yeah. Yeah. Is it in a cup? Nobody knows. Yeah, you don't know. Is it water? Is it purified H-2-O water? Is it, what do you call it?

It was alkaline water? I don't think so. Right? Was it purified water from a singing bowl? No. We don't know what to the cup. Was it big? So I'm just saying from that perspective, that's like, that has nothing to do with nothing.

That just has something. That's stuff that happens in the other. Like, actually, that don't happen. You can't really get away with that. Yeah, you can't get away with that. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what happened, like you mentioned big media is at that time. And it was such a, it was such a corrosive moment, I think, in media.

There was just such a lack of nuance about a ton of things. Even, even, and I don't think it's a historical thing. I just think the early 2000. They made it. It shouldn't have been that big because like, I mean, but you have to make it that big because, I mean, when you talk about impressions or in TV world, it's visitors or viewers, right?

When you talk about the, when you talk about brands paying per viewer, right? That's big dollars. If you look at the financial statements from the revenue that was generated from those, you know, viewers, right? That was big. and that story carried on.

So I get it from that perspective, you know, when you have these investors that are invested in big media and, you know, you want returns on your investment, right? You want to generate revenue for your network. So I get it from that perspective. But when you talk about, when you talk about breaking it down, you know, hey, you know, don't hit somebody or they are going to hit you back.

If you don't hit someone, they won't hit you. If you hit them, they will hit you, boom. That takes five seconds to a paint. But I'm not going to sell, you know, a Kogi, Two-Face. No, probably not going to tell Kulkei, Two-Face. So I respect it from, I respect it from all angles. If I had a big media company and this happened on my network,

what would we do? Right? We're going to call our editors and say, Let's go. Right? Let's go. What are you going to do? Right?

So I understand it from all perspectives. Yeah. I mean, you went on the Matt Lauer show after that. Like, was there, yeah. Like, what did you think was going to happen going in versus what actually happened? Verbaly, you know, verbally, I just said, hey, I don't want to come on your show. I didn't want to do that show. You know, I had an album coming out on November 23rd.

It was an R&B girls album, Allure. There used to be signed to Norah Carried album, Beautiful, Whoever, please listen to the album, but still on Ice Zone, and it's an incredible album that I was ever to produce. So that album was coming out on November 23rd. The brawl happened on November 19th. I was suspended on November 21st, right? And then that was it.

We couldn't promote the music. It was positive stuff, you know, that I was doing. So from that perspective, I told NBC, whether I'm not, to NBC like, hey, I'll come on a show, but I don't want to talk about the bro. I got an album coming out. Like, you can still use my face and still, you know, get impressions or the envisitors that you want. I'm the hottest topic right now.

You don't have to, but then, you know, if I'm going on someone else network, Matt Lauer was not welcoming. You know, when you have a, when you have a talent coming on your show, you're supposed to have a, it's supposed to be an even plan field. You're interviewing the talent, but he, well, the person, I got to get the person's name. Somebody helped me find this person's name because the person that solicited me to come on NBC lied. They said, yeah, okay, we're not going to talk about the bra, maybe a little bit. Then Matt started attacking me.

Well, why would you do that? What did you mean? What'd you mean? Why would I do that? Watch the tape. Right? But then, when I looked at the documentary, I never. have seen all those quotes.

I wasn't looking at nothing until I sort of documentary. I didn't even know people was calling us thug. I knew people would call me thug every now and then. I would read it. But I didn't realize it was that many people. It was insane. I was a certain documentary, I'm like, oh wow, thug, Doug, Doug. But you know, it is what it is.

I mean, back home, we call ourselves that because we know what it is. Like if I say, hey, what up, real inward. Right, because I know how to speak the lingo, you know, or somebody say, you know, Ron, you're a real G. You're gangster. You know, it doesn't mean I'm not killing people, right? It just means I'm a gangster. You know what I said? That's what they called me.

I go to Annie Hood. And like, you're real, you're a real one. But it's not, but in media, these people don't know how to, they used it in the wrong context. You know, we thought it was probably a little bit racist. Because how do you know I'm a thug? Well, show me how I'm a thug. Oh, because someone hit me and then I hit them back. That makes me a thug.

Oh, you can do it laugh at that, right? Oh, you can just laugh at that. I don't make no sense. That's like one of those Chinese movies back in the days when they bring a Chinese movie to America and it's in English. And I watched tons of hundreds of Chinese karate and film. right and then the guy is talking to Chinese but then the English is in English and the words is not moving the same it's not moving the same right he might be saying hey I'm going to kick your butt but you can see something in Chinese on a video that's how this was painted you know it wasn't saying the same thing you know they you see it so I'm not going to I'm not going to be answering any questions if you're just going to be paying the narrative I don't control media, I can't make an edit.

You know, I can't make a title. I can't say, no, I can't say this is not called the malice in the palace. I didn't want that title. I wanted it to be called Fan attacks player. That's what I'm in it. Fan attack player.

Yeah, I mean, there's something about the culture of fandom that's really interesting here too, where I think well, looking back at watching all of those clips and the montages of like, you know, how talking heads were reacting to. it. I wasn't, you know, the malice in the palace was something I learned about, or fan attacks. Fan attacks player is something that I learned about.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Refram it. It's something I learned about much later. It wasn't malice, but you got to just frame it. It got to be like, you know, the frame, you know, what's the, what's the title of the story? who came up with the malice in the palace we need that person's name because that person probably should not be working I can just picture the New York post headline

it was probably just like it was probably a clever producer who thought they were clever I'm gonna I'm gonna dig in I'm gonna actually try to find that after this yeah we should be like hey we should ask them why did you name it actually that was okay

you know what I don't have much problem with the malice in the palace in the palace because that's really what it was. But when you talk about malice, that first word, what is that word connected to, right? And I really break it down, right? When you say malice, are you talking about the players starting trouble? Like, what does that mean? What is it supposed to mean?

Like, I really like to break that down, you know? Because malice in the palace to me means players attack fans. That's what that means. Yeah, that's kind of, that's how it was framed. Now, one time ever in my life did I ever attack a Detroit fan? Out of all the bad stuff that we heard from these Detroit fans, now once ever in my life did I ever attack of the fan? First, I did attack a fan.

But first, you know, I'm like, hey, it is what it is. Becoming the Detroit, it's a hostile environment. We in the huddle, before we came out to the locker room, hey, guys, we know where we at. We're in Detroit. No matter what you hear, focus on the game. The fans are just being the fans, no matter what they say about your mama, no matter what they say, focus on the game. But we never say, hey, no matter what they throw, if they hit you in the face, focus on the game.

You know? Yeah, yeah. So when you were, you know, in the documentary, you said something along the lines of, you know, that was the one thing you weren't prepared for. Or it might have been in your book. But basically just the idea of like you, all the things that you just met. you knew you were going to get all of that, but you didn't know about a drink being thrown in your face. You couldn't have, you couldn't have like visualized, you know, yeah. I'm not going to prepare for that.

Why am I going to prepare? Right. Yeah, it's just like an unprecedented thing. Like, you just aren't like. Yeah. There's only 24 hours in a day. I'm not going to prepare. I'm not going through new scenarios, you know.

I'm not going through new scenarios. Yeah. Looking back at all of that stuff, it feels like this is something that still said to this day. Like, no matter what happens, the third rail is that players cannot interact with fans. And the way that it's said is like we never really unpack why it is that that's a rule. Like they act like it's the golden rule. Now the golden rule would be a little bit closer to, you know, don't treat others how you

wouldn't want to be treated. So maybe if you're a fan, like, you know, don't be over the top with some of these things. But looking back at it now, the philosophy behind that was not about sportsmanship. it was not about fairness. It was, it was capitalism. It's, it's, the customer is always right. That's essentially what it is. Honestly, I agree.

The customer's always right. Like, the fan, to me, the fan is always right. With the exception of the hit. Like, to me, I agree. Like, treat the fan, right. You know, the fan could do whatever they want. They can scream, you suck. You know, your mama have a pinky toe on top of the head.

Right? Say whatever you want. Is that, is that your go-to? That's like a little joke. Right? But I'm just saying like they say crazy stuff. But they're hitting. That's one thing that, you know, no one is going to accept.

I think it'll call everybody by surprise. I mean, and actually, that was not as bad as some of the other fights in the 80s. I see players fight fans. You got to look at the other tape. Wait, which tape are you speaking? Oh, you two. Look at players fight fans. in the NBA.

Sure. Yeah. You know, so that wasn't the first time. But at that time, honestly, I believed that no one was prepared for that. The commissioner wasn't prepared for that. I wasn't prepared for that. You see what I'm saying?

No one was prepared for that. The brands wasn't prepared for that. Like literally no one was prepared for that. The only one I was prepared for that was a fan that threw the cup. You know what I'm saying? So everybody reacted, everybody reacted, everyone overreacted. I might overreacted.

You know what I'm saying? I might overreacted. Like maybe I say, maybe I just curse that person out. You know, maybe I stick up my middle fingers and point them at the person. Like something like that. that, maybe I, you know, just curse out the fan versus running into the stands, you know, right or wrong, then maybe I don't, maybe I shouldn't have been suspended for 82 games. I thought maybe 40 games,

20 games, you know, maybe brands were saying, get rid of this guy. Oh, you're not going to I don't know. I wasn't in those meetings. I think everybody overreacted that day. Nobody was prepared for that. Do you remember it? Or is it just one of those moments

where it's like you see yourself on the screen, you're like, what? There's the last thing I think about, honestly, until people bring it up. I didn't want to do a documentary. I could care less about a malice in the palace documentary. So many people ask me to do a documentary.

I want to do a documentary. basketball. Yeah. That's it. I want to basketball content. I can care less about, and the only reason this documentary happened is because it was very important that Jermaine told the story. I didn't realize how important it was until I seen a documentary.

So I didn't want to do it. Then I did a, I did a documentary with Hulu and Showtime and Bleacher Report when they told me initially they said it was going to be about basketball. That's the only reason I did it because you can't offer me enough money. to do a documentary on the bro. You can't offer me enough money. So when they told me it was going to be about basketball, they sent a guy to me and said it was going to be about basketball

and you'll show your highlights. And I started talking, I gave them the sound bites all the time. So I started talking. They changed it from basketball to a mental health doc. And then they said it wasn't going to be about the bro. So I'm on the phone with Jermaine. I called Jermaine first. I said, Jame, I'm doing a documentary,

but it's not going to be about the bro. then they had some braw it wasn't a lot but there was some stuff about the bro you didn't turn from mental health bra no basketball no basketball you know I'll do a basketball guy I don't want to do a bro doc and then this Netflix one you know I didn't want to do one they asked me I didn't want to do it so then they went through Jameen you know and then I was like if we're going to do it then let's just charge him a couple million dollars but you know well you know but But the story was important and when I looked at it,

and Germain was an executive producer, so that made me feel a little bit better about it. Germain's story is very important because Jermaine was a superstar athlete, like, you know, upper Escher and Hall of Fame on him that didn't get his just due. And people look at him for that one incident when that wasn't even his fault.

He's protected me. I get hit from the stands and then I come down on the court. I had three people attacking me in the court. What's your relationship with Remain like now? It's better, you know. When I used to play, I never would. I mean, I just go home, go to practice and go to the game.

And that's all I'm thinking about. I'm not thinking about none else but the game. So I never really like went to lunch or dinner or nothing like that with teammates. I'm just in a gym staying, you know, two hours after. And that was pretty much it working. So I never developed a relationship where, you know, normally this is how a shit work. You say, hey, teammate, let's go get some lunch.

Hey, teammate, what you're doing later? Hey, you call your teammate. Like, that's how it works. But that wasn't me, right? And I got, I had my first kids at 16 years old. So that's the last thing I was thinking about was going out, you know, and hanging with teammates. At 16 and then 18 and then another one was coming. So the last thing I was thinking about was making friends with my teammates because I'm

like I'm only 19, 20, 21, but I'm a father of three, you know, and so, and I'm still only a baby. So I only had so much, you know, bandwidth to share. And I was trying to have a good time. And I was going through a bunch at that time. So I was like, it was a really awkward time. And I didn't feel like putting that burden over my teammates, you know, because thinking I was, and it's going through a lot of that time. So I just, I never felt like, why would I go hang with my teammates and put my stress on them? I'll just go to a club, right?

I'll just go to a club and just like drink some alcohol. But then that type of stuff makes it worse, you know? You know, I used to go out loud and just like have a good time and try to, you know, have a good time and enjoy the fruits of the labor, go out, party, drink a little bit. But you still have those issues that you never really addressed. and then things just get worse and worse and worse and power. That's all the, the whole brawl was just, everything paling on top, top. Everything was paled on.

It was like crazy, you know? Yeah. Did you feel like if you had done that at that time, not the reality of it, but at the time, in your mind, did you feel like there was anybody that would have been able to understand what you were going through? Jermaine for sure At that time Did you understand that

Or is that something looking back now? I did understand that I did understand that he was a Big brother For sure Because he projected that all the time You know You ask all Jemain friends

He's a loyal friend He's a friend like a real friend You have a friend And like you have a friend you love Like that's Jame But that that time that I had to really build that real friendship.

I didn't build it. But I think now we're better. You know, I know now we're better. I explained to him, we had a phone call a couple times because most of my stuff he probably saw was in media, you know, things I was going through. And I started to expose what I was going through as, you know, during my time. But at the same time, I also did them wrong, right? So I don't care what somebody's going through, right?

if we did me wrong, like, middle fingers in the air, you know. But then Jermaine, like, he's just a great human. He's a great human. He did not have to be my friend, which would probably really eat at me. You know what I'm saying? Some things that eat at you, right? Some probably, so I was really happy. Like, we had lunch, I think, in 2000.

We had lunch in 2018. we had lunch for the first time, like, ever? That's insane. That's why I like LeBron so much. That's why I'm always, that's why I'm a little Broncos. People would be saying all those buddy-buddy stuff. I'm like, yo, buddy-buddy it up. Because when, after this is over,

the only people you're really going to have are, you know, are your people that you spend 24 hours a day with with your teammates, develop some friendships along the way. You develop some friendships because when you're 40 my age, you'll be able to call your friends that you've been jailed with. You see them more you see your family. And they can understand the specificity of all the things that you've gone through too, that nobody else.

I'm going to. And they want to. Like, players generally, genuinely players want to reach out to players. Like, it's a great thing. You know, some people are, I guess, like me and Kobe and other people were, what do you call it, isolate, what you call us? social, non-social? Anti-social?

Anti-social. It's cool to a certain extent. But I think if you are antisocial, you know, I think sometimes getting out of that comfort zone, you know, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yeah, it kind of goes back to what you were saying about vulnerability. It's just, it's important for everybody to open up.

Jermaine said on a podcast that he, that he apologized to you for not, being able to understand, like, what it is that you were going through. Yeah, no reason to apologize to me. Literally, he did everything again. But that's the type of man, Jermain is. That's what I'm saying. That's the type of man Jermain is.

In my whole mind, like, I was going through a lot at that time. At that time, I wanted to be the best. All I was focused on was being the best. In the West, you had Kobe and Shack. In my mind, I need to be the best. Everywhere. And I don't know how close I was, but I was somewhere going in,

direction that was good. And then in practice, I'm the same way. Like, I'm competitive, so I want to be the best on the team. I want to be the best here. I want to, you know, and then, but the problem with that was I had so much other baggage that wanting to be the best is fine. But then when you're, that message could turn into a negative, you know, if you have other baggage behind you. You need to go into this

that with a clean sleep. You understand? Like when you compete at the highest level, you really can't have all the baggage because you're playing with a team. You're playing with other people. I don't care what you think. Because I tell my players when I coach, same thing. I don't care what you think. You're playing with

a team. The team is first. And I never got that concept because I was always the best. You know, so it was always about me. So I'm thinking if it was always about me when I was in high school, then it's going to be about me when I'm in the NBA. I'm going to make it about me because I'm going to work hard

and I'm going to show people it's about me. And that's the wrong mindset. Right. You've got 12 other players through three on the reserves. And you're getting a ton of money. Right? But at that time when I was 23, I couldn't see it like that.

You know what I mean? So Jermaine had no reason to apologize. Domain has a reason to be in a Hall of Fame. Remain need to be in Hall of Fame. where it's Jersey retired in Indiana, for sure. And who else, when you protect your teammates like that, that's like Michael Jordan fighting for who coach. That's bigger than the championship.

Jermaine literally was the leader of that team and was fighting for the entire Indiana. For the whole, the Indiana field wasn't there. We was in Detroit. They was in Indiana. Donnie Walsh and Library was in the stands. Reggie Miller was retiring one in a year. That was Jermaine's team.

He fought for everyone. His jersey should be retired. He should be a Hall of Fame because he was that talented. I'm not just giving it to him. It was that talented, six-time All-Star. No? At that time, one thing I wanted to ask you about was looking back at your game logs from that season,

November 9th and 10th, there were two games that you missed. And I think... I did miss a game that year? You missed, yeah, you missed two straight games. They were back-to-back November 9th and 10th. So just, you know, two weeks before what happened. And I think I was watching something, and it was, the sense I got was that it was a consequence of you asking for time off. But more is a, not you getting the time off, more of a punishment.

It was, I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I was playing very well that year. But I was going to retire. I was going to retire. When I looked at my contract, and then I looked at like where I was at, I said, you know what?

I'm just going to retire. I'll give them the $40 million back. And, you know, figure it out when I get back. You know, because at that time, the money wasn't as important as, you know, serenity. and I didn't have none at that time. It was nobody's fault. You know, it is what it is.

I was 20 years. It's just where I was. It's just where I was. When I was going to retire, it, you know, it just wasn't really that easy. It could have been. I could have just never came back and put publicly and retired and I'm done.

You know, but then what I did was, I came back and I said, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't retire. Maybe I just take some time off. Because I knew I could come back. I knew I could come back and just dominate and we go to the playoffs and all that stuff. It wasn't going to be a team better than us. You know, so I figured I take a little time off, maybe a month, go on vacation, you know, during the season, you know,

and, you know, I don't need to get paid. We got a great team. Maybe we lose a lot of games and come back and we start winning. That's how I thought about it. That's literally how I thought about it. But I just wanted that time to just like, you know, be relaxed. breathe, just reflect and kind of figure out, like, okay, what do you have here? Okay, you have, good, you have NBA, you have, you know, you have opportunities and different

things, like, okay, how can you, how can you, like, make it nice and balance and calm? You know, I was like, I was just trying to do that. So then, you know, when I went away, I went to the Salsa Awards. The reason I did that, the reason I went to the Source Award, because the league was, I just figured I'll do something on my own. So I said, you know what? I'm just going to relax and do something on my own. So I said, rapping.

I wrote a sauce once and start, you know, rapping and telling my story. When I'm from, hustles I grew up around, you know, people I saw get shot, you know, just start telling me stories, you know, things like that. And that's why, you know, I started to go down that path, you know. I looked at the interview on Untold. I didn't remember what I said, but I was like,

hey, here I am presenting, and I said, I don't know what I'm doing up here. I can't. I don't know. It's insane. I'm literally, but I was just trying to find some escape. And Miami's great because Miami got beached, weather, you know, so I just said, you know, I was going to go to Bahamas after that, but I didn't have that much time. I was away for like three days, you know, but it was definitely much needed, for sure.

It was definitely a much needed vacation. Did you watch The Last Dance? I watched The Last Dance. What did you think of? I mean, I imagine you felt some parallels there with when Rodman needed that time off too. I never knew that. That's your guy. I didn't know, I didn't know Robin was taking vacation until, like, after you get older, you hear more and more stories.

And I found out Robin used to take off and just like, but everybody's so different. I don't think it's normal to want to take off. during the NBA season. That's not normal. Like Kobe played 82 games. Carl Malone playing 82 games in season. These guys ain't gone, they're not going to Vegas. But everybody's not built like them, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like if you played right now, the NBA, like, on any team and not, you know, not putting blame on anybody else because, you know, at that time, it was just, it was a very different time in terms of how people even understood, like, how athletes work, how anybody with any amount of, you know, you know, passion and something that they want to express, you know, how their minds work. We just have a very different understanding of that now.

But do you feel like if you had played now that, you know, your story, your career and the way, you know, you were treated would have been different? Mm-mm. Really? Why not? It would have been the same story. It's like destiny. You're destined to be great.

You're destined to be at the stage. You're destined to be when you all have been the same story, same time, copy and paste. you know, just copy and pace 1999, last I played to 2016, copy and pace to 2020 right now

and this is going to happen. It's like, that's just destiny, you know? We're just humans living in life, living in this world. You can't escape reality. That's fair. I appreciate this whole conversation. I feel like you've really just, you haven't wanted to let yourself off the hook at all. I don't want myself with a hook, but some people always have money.

Let's get you your money. Let's call them out. What's up? No, but that's why you, that's why we're here in America. We create opportunities. But, you know, some people, you know, yeah, really? But this is America. And it's a, you know, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a,

great place to be when people are not being assholes. When people are not being racist. This is a great place to be. Where are you coaching? I coach you every day. I coach every day. Coach every day. I got 10 teams right now that I'm coaching.

And it's hard because sometimes you get new players because people got jobs and I got system. I coach some lead, but I don't coach one-on-one. like we playing the right way. And it's hard because I only got to put in new sets for new people all the time. Right now I'm building, I'm building some chemistry, but a few people in my organization. So now we're able to build on what I'm teaching and how I want everybody to play, which is open and free, you know, but do it together.

And, yeah, so I coach every day. women, men, teens, team in New York, maybe four teams in L.A. Practices. A lot of coaching. A lot of coaching. How old? Oh, I coach men and some teens, but mostly adults. Yeah, mostly adults.

Oh, okay. Like, just people who want to. just keep working on their game? Yeah, people that want to work on the game, people that want to get better. Some people just want to get better. Some people got 9 and 5, so, you know, they're not trying to go pro.

They just want to, they want to learn from the best. And then some people are trying to go pro. You know, it's a difference from being a really good basketball player and playing at the highest level. Right? When you play at the highest level, not only do you learn, like, plays from Coach Alabama at all with call out and stuff. Not only are you taking what they learn from their past mentors or colleagues and teammates.

And they're giving it to us, that's the whole other ballgame. But then when you're playing against Russell Westbrook, that's different from playing against the best player in your neighborhood. Right? So you can't mimic that. So we have to, or me, what I do is try to teach different things. If you ever play against Russell Westbro, you're going to have to be right. But if you really want to be good,

or you really say you can play against NBA players, you say it. But I don't see it. You know, now, on the flip side, there's a difference between LeBron to Russell, to even Deladova, is levels to skill level. Right?

So on the flip side, I can prepare you where if you want to play in an open run and you're playing with LeBron or you playing with Westmore, or you're playing with Durant, they're going to say, good move. Good decision, right?

I can help you fit in, and that's my goal. And that's why I enjoy it because, you know, we're teaching. I am teaching at the highest level right now. You know, I get a lot of local players that play on my local team and because they're the best on a team, you know, they think that they can't get benched or they go to another team. You know, I'll bench them, you know, and teach them on that bench. I'll teach anybody on a star player on the NBA team on the bench.

if I have I had a job I'll send them to the bench I don't care how much you get me you know if you have any issues you know and it is what it is and but they respect it you know like these players are starting

to respect it so I am so blessed that I'm able to coach I'm so blessed I'm able to coach at this level it is a high level because these players are really good and they got potential you know and I'm getting the best out of number sometimes you know so that's what I'm doing

nowadays. Are you working with guys that are in the NBA or hoping to get to see NBA? I do work with some guys in NBA. Yeah. Okay. I don't like to mention guys I work with an NBA. But I do work with some guys. I've been working with guys in the NBA on many different levels on different things,

but it's not anything, you know, to mention, you know, and to gain, you know, credit from whatever. Fair enough. Fair enough. How did you get into it? Basketball. I play. I'm really good. Co-coaching.

coaching. Oh, coaching? Because I'm just, you know what I really got me into it, Rick Carlisle. Rick Carlisle told me in Indiana when I was, he believed in me so much, you know, and he told me I was going to be a great coach. That's what he told me. Really? Yeah, he told me that when I was going through a lot, too.

Obviously, Indiana, I was with Rick at, when I was going through everything, I was with him, when I was at my best, had my best season under Rick Carlin. defensive player he under a call out, an all-star under a call-out. You know, and he told me one day that I was going to be a good coach. And you know what? Does that mean an NBA coach?

No, it doesn't have to mean an NBA coach. It means you're going to be a good coach. So take that and go coach. You know, take that and go coaching. And it's, I just can't believe how much fun I'm having coaching. It's unbelievable. You know, it's just so much fun. When did he tell you that?

That was before the brawl. That was like, that was, that was, the season before the brawl, he told me that because, you know, I'm just an effective player and I don't have to get 30, you know. I never had 40 in my life in the NBA. But, you know, I win him, you know. So when you, I'm doing everything right, close outs, deflections, boxouts, 50-50 balls, scorer. scoring, everything, literally everything. Listening, you know, I can execute, I can execute under pressure, you know, at a young age, I was doing everything, you know, with the exception of I wasn't really leading. I wasn't leading at that time. I were winning, but not leading is a difference.

You're worrying but not leading? No, leading. I mean, I was winning, winning, but not leading, yeah. That's a difference. There's a big difference. Yeah. So what do you think it was that he saw on you? You know, I just, I mean, he got a complicated offense and I'm not worried about it. It's shit easy. You know, I go, I learned every team I went to, just talking with the offenses, let's practice, like enough for you to fucking talk. Tell me with the offenses, what we're doing. Yeah. I don't need all explanations. The reason is because I had great coaching growing up. Um, Kevin Jackson, New York City,

Ardy Cox, Mr. Lois, a tournament player, Bill Aver, five-star. I've been to five-star camps. I have so much great coaching that,

you know, I play for Kenny I, with Kenny Hito in the summertime, a really good player. I played with Willie Daniels. All these amazing basketball minds, like teaching me since I was a kid.

Like, literally, I learned the triangle my first year of Chicago, 19 years old. You know what I'm saying? Like, then did the triangle, first year with the L.A. And, you know, insert in a triangle, which people running from the triangle. You know, that triangle.

Yeah. Well, you know, I can play any offense. Any offense. It don't matter. Yeah. What's it like now to be to teach guys who might not necessarily pick up on things as quickly as you do? Difficult. Very, very difficult.

but fun. You've got to have a lot of patience because some practices, I might have one group, and then the next day is a different group. Well, the next day is only half the group and half a new group. So I got to move quick, you know, and I tell people, hey, I'm only going to say it once today and do as best as you can.

Have any questions? Ask me. And that's it. Because, you know, I don't have practice every day with the same group. know, it's not that type of, you know, organizations. It's once a week and it's different people, you know. So they have to go back and I tell them you watch this team. Watch this NBA team.

Watch this player, you know, and then defense is super important to me. So defense is like, you know, has everybody worked on defense when you were in high school? Okay, do you remember what your coach told you? Okay, cool, let's get to it, you know. And then I got to look at the mistakes. I said, okay, you should be doing this. You should be doing that and kind of correcting them as we go. and we don't get a lot of time

for individual skill works I mean it's just really I'm just amazing that I'm able to it's amazing that I'm able to coach still it is at a high level for sure I mean there's absolutely nothing like being able to to take all the things that you've learned

and actually be able to you know help other people with it like I was reading reading about your son too like you were you were a math whiz and now he's a computer scientist right Yeah, for sure.

He's done, he got most of that from his mom. But, you know, he's a, I wasn't a math whiz. I was a, I wanted to pursue major in math because people said I couldn't do it. You know, so I'm competitive and you tell me I can't. I'll just do it. So that's what got me really in the math. And then it also kept me out of trouble. So I decided to, my first major was architecture.

I felt I could have did it if I was, wasn't playing in basketball. I could have for sure did it. And my son, he was at UCI, basketball scholarship, majoring in computer science, developing. Now he's working at Inuit, developing software for Intuit while he just got accepted to USC in a cinema school for AR and V. So, you know, he's still going to try to make it to the NBA, but he's not currently on a basketball team right now. He's going a different route. He's focusing on school first. And he's training and I'm training on planes. He's going to try to go to you.

He's at USC. He's going to go pursue his major. And then we're going to train when he has time. His defense is really impressive. I got two signs that's one's going to try to go to the G League. Ron on test third. And then Geron is going to try to go later, you know, to the NBA and G League. So, you know, good luck to both of them.

I'm really hoping they both can do it. Yeah, definitely. Good luck to both those guys. Mehta, appreciate your time today. Appreciate your candor. Thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Thanks again to Mehta. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Isaiah, for making this work on short notice. And we will see you when we see you. Happy off season.