The Ringer NBA Show - Miami Heat Overcome the Celtics to Face the Lakers in the NBA Finals | Real Ones

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

On today’s newly dubbed 'Real Ones,' Logan and Raja discuss Miami’s monster victory over the Celtics in Game 6 to win the Eastern Conference finals and go through to the Finals (3:23) and the Finals matchup between the Lakers and Heat (35:05). Then noted Celtics fan Jackson Safon of The Ringer’s video team joins to pour out some liquor for his Celtics (58:46) and Jordan Ligons from The Ringer’s copy desk joins to talk about everything that’s happening in the Wubble (1:06:25). Finally, Logan and Raja each award their Real One of the Week (1:18:08). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guests: Jackson Safon and Jordan Ligons Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Real Ones on The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken original logger is made with pure malt and their famous Aeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. You can drink Heineken a lot during these, even during these social distance quarantine times. You can do it maybe at a Zoom party where you're with your homies and you're just toasting it up. Or when you're watching the NBA finals and seeing the Lakers potentially get their 17th title. Pick up a pack and have it delivered today. And remember, most important,

Make sure you drink responsible. I don't think Jason Tatum is built like that, bro. I told you all my take on him. Like, I probably threw shade at Carmelo by comparing him to Carmelo. Damn. No, I did because Carmelo is a bona fide, like, all-time great score. I don't even know if that's his ceiling. But I don't, you got to put somebody with him, bro.

Like, he ain't going to, he's not carrying you to championships. I don't know, man. I think Tatum is, I'm a big fan of Tatum, man. His skill set is listening. He's 22. Hello, welcome to the Monday edition. the ringer NBA show. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Tripping, bro. You're tripping, bro. I'm tripping, bro. My bad. Wait, so this is a perfect opportunity, my co-host, Roger Bell. We got a new name, bro. No doubt. Tell them what it is.

Let them know. You know, we always talk about what we like in a person, right? We always talk about that. We always talk about the characteristics we like in a person. We like real ones, right? So I feel it's only appropriate that we name our show, real ones. with Raja and Logan. And it was like right there the whole time.

It was right, bro. It was right there the whole time. We had it the whole time. We did it. We did, hey, man, let's throw out some names. Hey, you guys give us some names. Bro, we had just the whole time in the tuck. We had this in the tuck the whole time.

How are you doing, bro? I'm good, though. Fresh cut. You got the real onyx cut right now. Eye whitening serum. Cains 1. Do you know I'm a big Hurricanes fan? Do you college football fan?

Because I'm a, like, I grew up as a hurricane. Cain's fan. So I grew up as a USC fan. Yeah. All right. So when the Cains are good, like all's right in my universe and the Cains are good, dog. Okay. You went to Florida International. I don't, uh, I did go to FIU. There was no football program at the time. You said like you're ashamed right now. No, I'm saying. You cut me off before I could even say anything. I know where you're going. People ask me all the time, how am I a Miami fan if FIU, but FIU didn't have a football program at the time. So I still got to maintain my cane. Okay. Okay.

That makes sense. So you just have a cane stand right now, right? You grew up with like, you know what I mean, grew up? Listen. Michael Irvin, Jimmy Johnson. There are people that went to the University of Miami that might have played a sport there that bleed less orange and green than me, dog. Like, just that's facts. Okay. You know and in Coral Gables, right?

I know. Yeah. Hey, Rogers name rings bells and Coral Gables. My wealthy neighborhood pass is stamped. I'm good down there. You got all the plugs at the homeowners association, huh? Just you good, huh? Oh, man, it's good to see you, dog. You too, bro.

You too. Man, no, but we got a good show lined up for you, man. You know, just always tap in on Spotify. We got a lot of dope stuff for you guys on the Ringer NBA feed. And we got the NBA finals coming, man. We got some mismatches coming on. We got some group chats popping. We got real ones popping all on Spotify and wherever you,

guys get podcast. It's going to be a good week, Roger. It's going, hey, look, and we've talked about Coral Gables, like Miami's on fire right now as a city. The heat are in the finals again. Yeah. You grew up a heat fan? Like, was that a thing? No, full disclosure, I did. I was a bulls fan. So, like, when the Heat became a franchise when I was like in the 8th grade, so I was already linked to MJ and Scotty. Was it like I still want to rep, but I'm a Bulls fan? Did you have Miami Heat gear? Like, how did that work out? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no heat gear. Straight Bulls gear?

Yeah, I hold a little place in the heart for the heat because it's my town, but I'm always, you know, I'm a Bulls fan. And then once I played in the league, like, you don't really cheer for anybody anymore. How many tickets did you have to give up when you came to the Miami? What was the ticket situation like? 20, 25, depending on, you know. And that's throughout your whole career, because I know like in the beginning, you know, you get a lot of ticket requests.

And then as I see as people's career goes, you know, goes on. and on, those ticket requests kind of dwindle down. They do. So my rookie years, the year we went to the finals, and I know we got a big show lined up, but a funny story is, like, I wasn't making a lot of money. I didn't know, like, what the checks looked like. I just thought I was going to make more money than I ever had. And I was handing out a playoff ticket like they were bubble gum.

And so when I got my check, I made, I don't, it was, it was really upsetting to me how much I had spent on tickets unknowingly. Like, I was just handing them out. Your playoff share wasn't as good as, you know. It's not what I thought it was going to be. All right, man. Come on, Roger, bro. Catting off right now, man.

Let's get into the biggest story so far. I was getting to Heat Celtics, bro. Yeah. It's what I thought. It's what I thought. This is what you thought was going to happen? I mean, after game one, it's what I thought. The tougher team, look, the tougher team won.

Yeah. What you want me to say? Like, we're going to get into all the dumb shit, but at the end of the day, the tougher team won. The biggest thing that I was just disappointed with was the Celtics had a six-point league into the fourth quarter, in the midway through the fourth quarter. They were up 96-90, had the game in the balance. And then the heat just say, Bam out of bio, just win this game for us, bro.

I didn't know, I knew Bam was tough. I didn't know Bam was this tough to where you just put the ball in his hand. He's literally the point guard and say, you just go get us a few buckets. Put this game away for us. I mean, BAM, yeah, I guess I thought BAM was tough, like physically and mentally. I didn't know that he had a bag like that maybe. But what I'll say to that, Logan, is when your defense is as bad as the Celtics defense was in the fourth quarter, there are a lot of guys in NBA games.

And this isn't to minimize what BAM did because that shit was cold for a young player to, like, put it all on his shoulders down the stretch. Like, that's big boy basketball. And I would say, like, Jason Tateau, like in the juxtaposition there is really interesting, right? But the Celtics defense was awful. There were multiple times as I sat there and watched a game where you were waiting for that second defender who was like, just step over and give your body up.

Like stuff that you do in the regular season to win a game, they weren't doing it. And this was like the most important game of their season. And they had multiple times where guys were ISO and getting downhill and people wouldn't step in and take the charge or at minimum, you know, try to affect the layup. And it was just really interesting. And not to mention, like, Boston shot 14, three-pointers or like, you know, 20-footers in the fourth quarter.

They made, what, like, two of them. The heat only shot four. They made all four. Like, that tells you who the tougher team is, right? Like, one's going to stand out there and cast up threes, and the other one is going to put their head down and try to bully you at the basket. I just think the biggest thing, I think the Celtics for big stretches of this series were the better team. but when you put a zone in like the heat did and there was nothing special about the zone

that they played against the Celtics, but it completely just annihilated that team. And we were talking about this throughout the, you know, we were on the text thread, I'm in the group chat, and you are pissed every two seconds you see a zone and that the Celtics cannot take advantage of it. Tell the listeners and the viewers out there,

tell them the one thing, that you told us every game that you were pissed about. The middle of that bullshit zone was wide open. Like some people play a two, three, and will at least have their guy in the middle bounce back and forth between the free throw line and the rim to give the illusion that you can't hit the middle of the zone, right? So if you were to even think about putting someone in the middle,

uh-uh, my big is there. The heat realized that the Celtics had no, idea what to do. They left Bam out of bio basically under the rim. They were inviting a catch at the free throw line. I paused the TV last night 19 times. The people I had watching the game with me left the room because I just keep saying to everybody, will you please look at this shit? And they refuse to hit the middle of the zone. Like I'm really, I text Steve Nash about it last night. Like, I text multiple people. I was just so upset and couldn't figure out how you missed that over the course of six games. And is that a strategic thing? Does the coach

needed to, is that a, is that a Brad Stevens thing? What is that? Because it's the, it was the same zone we kept seeing throughout the entire postseason. I mean, about the entire, the entire series. Brad Stevens made Eric's bolster job so easy over the course of this. He never had to make an adjustment, Eric's bolster, that is, because Brad Stevens never made the adjustment to the zone. So, like, I could imagine the heat brass sitting around like at dinner, like laughing like this money, he's just going to come out here and do this again. Yeah. Like that, that, okay. Okay, well, let's roll it back. It was clear that Brad Stevens believes in screening the zone.

So if you will, you have two, three at the top. There's a ball handler on one side of the zone. They want to set a screen coming from the middle of the floor and bringing their guard towards the free throw line, which is the area I'm talking about, right? The problem with that is they weren't ever getting a good enough screen or they rarely did to make the second guard have to suck in. When the second guard sucks in and you kick,

it to the wing, then the bottom of that zone, one of the bottom wings has to come up. And you can usually get another skip to the corner or another quick pass to the corner. And it requires Bam out of Bio to get out. And usually it's too late. There's a three in the air. They just weren't able to collapse the D with the drive. So my point was if you put the big in the middle and just give him the ball there, or not even the big, just a playmaker, a Jason Tietam. Because I was going to ask you about that.

I was going to ask you, if you put a big in there, does the big have to be an offensive threat? Because in my opinion, the only offensive threat that the Celtics had is Ennis Cantor. And we saw how he was horrid on the defensive end. So how do you need an offensive threat in that situation when you put a big in the middle of the zone? Yeah, ideally you're big as someone who can make a play. So Ennis fits the bill more than Tice does. But then when you do that, you sacrifice on a defense. So let me give you another option.

You throw Jason Tatum in the middle of that. This is going to sound nuts to anyone who thinks of like your typical basketball. Put Kemba in the middle of that. Put Kemba there, right? Let him catch it. Bam out of bio is back at the front of the rim. Kemba catches it in turns real quick. It's a Frito line jump shot.

If Bam comes up, Kemba's going to go right by him. Put Jalen Brown in there. Like any of those options would have created something in the middle of that zone. And then you can hide Daniel Tice in the short corner. So when BAM's got to come up and play, you can slip Tice behind them at the rim or now you've got a corner kick and you put the baseline wing in a really tough spot. Am I going to take away Tice on the duck in or am I going to get out to the three-point shooter? Like it's just, it ain't rocket science, dog, and they just never made the adjustment.

Is that, what about the argument? There's been coaches before to make the argument. I mean, we're playing the way that got us here and we're not changing. Have you been a part of those types of coaches? I don't know if Brad Stevens is that guy when it comes to that. But there's definitely coaches that we've both seen that just don't make adjustments, say you're going to have to adjust to us. Do you think that that was a situation right here where a guy is just like, you know,

has gotten us this far. Let's not make the adjustment. I don't want to believe that. I have definitely been in locker rooms with guys like that. They're usually not very good coaches. There is something to be said. I shouldn't say that. Let me take that back. Because Mike DeAntony is a guy who will tell you,

we're going to make you adjust to what we do, right? That's what I was referencing. That's what I was referencing. Mike does that. But within that, you're going to change up what you do. It's not like I'm going to keep beating my head against a brick wall. I might throw some wrinkles into what I do, and you therefore are going to have to deal with what I do.

It's just another way of the way I do it. I don't think Brad Stevens is like that. He seems like a guy who makes adjustments. I just, I don't know if that was, I can't put my finger on the low game because I think he's a really good coach, and I'm going to say this. He got his ass handed to him by Eric Spostra,

and if I am the Celtics brass, like it might not seem like a lot to a lot of people, but not figuring that two, three, zone out that had no unique qualities to it. That's like an AU zone, bro. It's really concerning, dog. It's really concerning, dog. How about I think it's just one of those things because every coach has gotten their lunch taken from.

Every coach worth their salt has done that. We'll see what happens next year because this is a team that some people are saying like a year ahead of schedule, you know, with Tatum, balling and things like that. We're going to get to Tatum because I know that that's something that you were very passionate about. We talk about this all the time. All right. But what do you think about the Seljik's team, though, right? Like they got to the conference finals. They seem like a player going forward.

We don't know what's going to happen with Brooklyn. and Kevin and Kyrie over there, but I see the Celtics as being among the top of the Eastern Conference. Am I wrong to think that? No, I think you're right. I think the Celtics are poised to have some shelf life in the Eastern Conference.

Look, in one breath, I just said that Brad Stevens would be really concerning. If I'm the Celtics, I'm like, look, if it's just a matter of you getting, like, caught like a deer in headlights, I could give you the benefit of the doubt. It was just a zone. So that would be the me playing devil's advocate, you know, against what I just said. So the two things that they would have to clean up would be not getting outcoached in that situation. Because these are two things that, three things, not getting out coached in that

situation. Your star in Jason Tatum being a star, like, you know, taking the reins and saying, I got this shit, I'm not going to go over 13 through three games in the first quarters. I'm not going to do that. And then a little bit of a level of grit that I feel like the heat might hold that advantage on most teams in the NBA. So I can't really even hold that against you. Like the heat, you put them in any game. You're going to say the heat are probably the tougher, grittier team.

That's just the way they play. Even against the Lakers coming up? We'll get to that in the second. Yeah, they're much tougher than the Lakers, like straight up. Okay. We'll get to that in a second. You talked about Jason Tatum. Yeah.

This is somebody that we have definitely classed in views on. I'm a big Jason Tatum fan. I think you're not as high on him. You're not as, let's keep it a butt. I think that Jason Tatum is going to be a bona fide superstar. All he needs to do is figure out how to get to the line right now. And I think that this was one of those series that every young player has where they just get figured out. They get their ass kick.

They just don't have a great series. But they show, they show some things. And every LeBron has had this series. Michael Jordan has had this series. Kevin Durant against the Lakers in 2010, his meta had this type of series, right? This is the series that you,

in my opinion, that happens right before you become a superstar. And Tatum showed signs. I think that the biggest thing that we need to see going forward with him is how we get to the free throw line. And that's how he becomes from a 20-something per game score to a 30-point per game score. And I think that he's right on the cusp of that.

Okay. I don't know if you feel the same way. I think all that's fair. I think you had some really good points in terms of that failure at that moment or not being able to get over the hump at that moment, being the catalyst for you going back to the drawing board and really rounding out what you need to put in your bag to be the champion. So I can't argue any of that. I think he is as gifted as there is in the NBA with the ball in his hands, a size. skill combination is really unique, he would be impossible to guard. Like, I really do believe that.

What I worry about and what I try to articulate is my concern with him is the mental part of it. There is a killer that is in certain people. You saw it in Jamal Murray this postseason. You saw it in Donovan Mitchell this postseason shit. You saw it in Tyler Hero and Bam at a bio in this series that I, quite frankly, worry about Jason Tatum having. don't know that that's fair to him, you know, ultimately it doesn't really matter.

I don't care, but I worry about that with him. And that you don't develop over the course of an offseason. You can get to the Frito line. You can round your game out. You can become a better score. But do you have that guy in you? And I don't know the answer to that. And so that's the concern I have.

Here's the thing, though, he's 22 years old. And I'm not making no comparisons right now. I'm not as far as game goes. but when LeBron was 22, there was a lot of people talking about, oh, man, he just doesn't have it in him. He has all these skills. He just doesn't have it in him. We're looking real stupid right now saying that in hindsight, right? Like I just said, he's not a fully mature person yet.

That is very fair. It's also not fair to be comparing Jason Tatum to LeBron James. I'm not comparing the arguments around them, right? Like, we have seen players go through this cycle of they're really, really good. They don't play well in one postseason series. What year did LeBron, like, you got forgive me for not having, I didn't know we were going here, but what year did LeBron make the finals? Was it what year?

At 22. Yeah, no, no, no, but I mean, at 22, right? Was it like his third year? Let me check. You make some good points about Jason Tatum, though. I'm not saying that he can't do it. I'm saying that I have my concerns. He was 22.

06-07 when he got swept by the San Antonio Spurs. Right. And showed some, yeah, showed some chinks in the armor. Had some things, you know, highlighted for him that he needed to work on. Had to work on his jump shot. People said he didn't have a killer instinct. I'm not comparing their games. I'm just comparing the coverage that, and that was the 2006-07 season when he was 22.

I don't, I can't recall a point in LeBron's career where he was the guy. And I'm not, I'm not, I just want to purpose by saying. I'm not trying to compare them. All I'm trying to do is saying that there's president for people that have not, that you think are, they're 22, but. Shit, at 22 people told me I'd never play in the NBA. I played 13 years in it.

So like, you could talk your shit. Talk your shit. No, but no, but the point is like, yeah, at 22, you could be, like, mis-evaluated or people can miss on whether or not, like I could certainly miss on whether or not Tatum develops into that. Because you are young, there's, there's hopefully a lot. in front of you. It just went, all.

First of all, LeBron in those days, never had a Jalen, Kemba, Marcus Smart, who was fighting for shots. Like, he was clearly the alpha, so he had to play a different role. He couldn't just sit back and let it come to him. Jason Tatum just looked like he was passive in times where you can't afford to be passive if you are that guy.

And maybe that has something to do with a supporting cast, and I should give him more of a benefit of the doubt. But I think that there's still time for him. to mature into that guy and I wouldn't write that part off of him yet. I can't write them off. I got my concern. So just put that in the file. Put that in the file. And, you know, talking about that, it was, it was funny to see the juxtaposition between Bam out of bio, Jimmy Butler, and then you go to Jason Tatum, right? Because there's a close out, it's a closeout game. How do you as sense the moment of,

okay, I got to take over right now, right? And I know you have never put in that position to do that, to like say like, yo, I got to, you know, put it on my back right now. But when do you see that a star player, you know, from your vantage point has to sense that? When have you seen them have to be like, okay, it's my turn to do this? So I've never, I didn't have to do. That wasn't my job in the NBA. But in college and in high school and at other levels, that's your job, right? So I have, I do understand I understand what you have to do in games like that, just not necessarily at the NBA level for me personally. There's no time to take over.

It's when we come out of the gates, and this is a loser-go-home situation, people are following me. They are looking to take their cues from me if I am the alpha, right? And so whether I am hot or not, because I don't ultimately control that, I must be aggressive and I must look like I have this shit under control. if I look stymied or if I look confused

or if I look like not confident that is going to trickle down and there are going to be people a la Marcus Smart last night who sense it and feel like it's then their job to step up and play out of character to some degree shooting too many shots because they don't trust that I'm going to do it

and that domino effect is dangerous so for an alpha he's got to be ready to go bro it ain't got you can be 0 for 8 and still pushing the envelope trying to get buckets That's what I was going to ask you. If he's aggressive, but he's, but he, but you can't say this, though. He was, he was, he was going over in the first quarter. Like, he was trying to be aggressive shots weren't going down.

Yeah, but they were, they were, they were all J's, bro. They were like deep threes. So if he was going to the cup and he was just 0 for 8 and was just really aggressive, you would feel a different way. Well, good scorers, once you realize you're 0 for 4 from 3 and you're that talented, they go to the cup. Like you, if you're a good score, any good score will tell you, dog, if your jump shots off, like, and you ask him, just open any question,

question, what are you going to do if you're 0 for four for threes? What's your next move? They're going to tell you they're getting to the cup and trying to either get a layup or get some free throws. They want to see the ball go through the hole. So that's your job. That's what concerns me about that, that you just kept casting up jumpers until you eventually got hot. But by that point, I mean, you know, we were in a ball game. I think though, if Tatum, say if this series happens next year, I think Tatum will be ready to, I have faith in him. Okay. And I feel like he's going to be, if you put Tatum in this series and he's so good in the

first quarter, I think the Celtics won the series. Yeah, I'm with you. If Jason Tatum looks good early and that team feels normal, right? Because what you're talking about, Logan, and what I'm talking about is as Steve's running mate or Sean Marion or Amari Stoddor, running mate. I want to be the best that I can be to support them in my role. So, you know, like when I look over there and they look out of sorts and I'm looking out the corner of my eye and I'm like, damn, bro, they don't look like they really want this smoke. Like, do I have to do a little

extra? Once you start having me and other players on our team having to pick up slack or perceive slack, you have a problem. Like, that can't manifest itself in that game. Everybody has a role on a team and their role is to lead to lead you. And whether you're scoring it at a high, an effective field goal percentage or not. Just knowing that you're confident and you ain't going to stop doing what you do is really important to me and my role. And I felt like, to your point,

if he had been that dude early, it would have settled Boston down. They would have been a lot more effective. And I do believe they could have beat the heat. He was just out of source. Do we need to put more respect on Spolster's name? Yeah, I think, look, Eric Spolstra, you're talking about Pop.

He's one of the best three coaches. Do you think he's a top three? coach right now? I do think he's the top three like pop. Who would you put pop, Kerr, and Spoh? Like who would you put? What's the one I said? Pope, Steve Kerr and Spolster's name. I wanted to put it at number two. But yes, Steve Kerr is in the mix and then, you know, Eric Spelster's right there with them for sure. And does this push Brad Stevens, this, this, does this push him out of the top five in coaching right now? You're asking me to go through a, because I just think it makes him like fourth. Yeah, I don't, I don't, you know what I mean? Like,

I think that, you know, Brad Stevens is getting slander. Yeah, I mean, you're still in the Eastern Conference Finals. You still have a really good basketball team. Unfortunately, my job is to sit here like with y'all and dissect that. And it was, I still think he's top five, Logan. But, man, I mean, I know I keep beating a dead horse with this shit, man. Like, if you knew how, like, if I'd love to do like a breakdown, like maybe the ring or let me do like a breakdown on just the zone.

And I could just whiteboard you how open the middle of that. No, man, you might break the equipment of how pissed you are. You might break the equipment. I don't know. Damn, Brad. You might break the telestrator. Damn, man. But how do you know what a good coach is?

And do you know that instantly? What are the characteristics of a good coach versus a bad coach? As a problem. Yeah. Not saying that, and I want to preface it, not saying that Brad is a bad coach or supposed a bad coach. But I do, how do you know that? How do you know when you come into a locker?

Yeah, I think, first of all, like, we all know. Like, we all know the game. So knowing your shit is critical, right? Like having a mastery of whatever your philosophy is and not really wavering on that, being able to teach that. Once you've taught it to us and really, and we can see whether it bears results or not, like that's an indictment or endorsement. Right.

So if it works, you're like, yeah, okay. Then once you've got through that, I think it's like communication, being a guy who can really get down and have conversations with players and different people that bear fruitful relationships is important. Flexibility, Logan, is important. You talked about the My Way or the Highway approach. Like, you're dealing with guys in the NBA that are savants. Like, you have to have some input from your best players.

You know, you have to be able to take what LeBron's telling you and figure out how to make that work within what you do. And then being able to adjust, like, on the fly, which is kind of flexibility because the other great coach is going to. to counter what you're doing. And then this is where Brad did not do his job. Like you have to make an adjustment to at minimum make the heat make an adjustment.

And they just didn't do that. Do you, what do you think about when you talk about coaches? It's especially NBA coaches. You're coaching grown men. How does that differ from coaching kids? Because you can't always just push a hard line on a grown-ass man. It just, you know, how do you gain respect?

from a from a 28 29 year old when you're a coach. It's a good question. I think with a lot of young players, you have to, and I keep saying it's a relationship business, man, you have to build relationships with people so that they begin to trust that you don't just want to win for your pocket,

but you have everyone's collective, like, pockets in mind. right? Like I'm trying to help everybody win here. We are a family. I think holding everyone similarly accountable within reason is important, right? I don't know if that's realistic, though, is it? It's not, no, no, not every. I said similarly and within reason, right? Because I can't hold everyone exactly the same way accountable. Like, that's not realistic. But I do- Can you hold Raja Bell the same way accountable as you with Steve Nash? You, so Steve Nash and I had this conversation in regards to like when we were talking about his coaching philosophy and stuff like that.

And he said that he has to develop relationships with players and to where if Kevin Durant or Kyrie should do something wrong or execute poorly or just generally fuck up that in a film session, he has the equity to be able to say not beating a dead horse about it, not harping on it, But just matter of factly, hey, Kevin, you fuck this up. And this is the way we want to do it. And then you can move on from there. But you have to have the relationship in place where you can say that to your best player. And then everybody else in the locker room is like, oh, okay, because I know he say the same shit to me.

You know what I mean? You don't got to chew them out. But you have to have that level of respect and the relationships to pull that off. That's a good point as far as gaining that respect. And I think that especially, you know, this day and age with players is they want to know that you actually care about or actually or some semblance of that i know kairi does i know you know kevin does you have to have um a built-in relationship with a person to respect them he can't just walk in nash can't just walk in and be like this is how it is and my way or the highways this doesn't

work that way um what's the best thing a coach has done for you in your career just instill confidence in me bro um you probably know you probably know this like this is it transcends a sport like when you have someone, whether it be a boss or a coach, who believes very strongly in what you can add, even when you might be like on the edge of your confidence level and they're looking at you like, no, bro, this is what you do. We need you to do it. Even if it doesn't work right now, go out there and do it some more. That was Mike D'Antoony for me. And that was huge in my development as a player. The other thing that a coach did for me was my high school, I mean, my college coach, Shaky Rodriguez did it. And then Jerry Sloan did it for me when I was with the jazz was just let me be

who I was, you know, emotionally and physically. Like a lot of people wanted to tone me down because it didn't fit in their box of like how you should act all the time. And I was going to do some dumb shit. Like I was going to punt a ball in practice or or like choke somebody. Yeah, I was going to do some stupid shit, but they let me be who I was within reason. Like, if they needed to calm me down, they would. But they weren't always in my ass about trying to fit into that box. And once they let me be me, they got the best out of me. Did the player, I mean, did, were you the type of player that needed an occasional arm around you like, yo, Roger is all right? Because I feel, I'd imagine you felt like the world was on your shoulders, especially after the Kobe shit.

And then, you know, you have that rep. Like, do you, occasionally do you have to be like, yo man we got you roger were you one of those guys like yo chill no i didn't need the like i played with a lot of guys that needed the the reassurance of like hey man you're great like you know we love you type of thing i never needed that like because um i did need occasionally and full you know like there were times where i didn't trust i came into the league and and i wasn't asked to shoot and therefore like i stopped shooting and then i lost all confidence in my shot and I had to rebuild that through like work in the summers. So by the time I got to Phoenix, like I shot it well, but no one had ever said, just keep shooting if you miss. I was always like,

if you miss a few, probably start passing. And so I needed occasionally Mike to tell me, hey man, you're good, you got it. Like we trust you. Keep shooting. Like that went a long way from me. I just kind of talked about that. I was more of a guy that like would, you know, just I'd have a fight every now and again. Or like I wake up sometimes and I'm not in a great mood. Right? So like if you say the wrong shit to me, you know, I might pop off and, and, you know, we're into some shit. And you had to know as a coach, like, let him be today. Like don't, like, Raj's tripping, bro. He's just going to sit over there and just. He was a Rogers tripping?

Okay. Raj's tripping. Just let him go. And the ones who could figure that out, like, you know, they were better coaches in my estimation than the ones that were always like making you do dumb shit. Because once you start making me do stupid shit, like, you know, it's punishment. I'm extra tuned out, you know? Yeah, for sure. Let's take a quick break, and then we're going to come back and talk about the NBA finals. The Ringer NBA show was brought to you by Fanduals Sportsbook.

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The finals are set up, Roger, though. Okay, Logan, listen, let me tee you up. Let me tee you up. Don't me out. Don't me a lot. Yeah, let me tee you up. One point. We know how you feel about the Lakers.

We know. This is like not new news for anyone. The heat are a really tough, scrappy team that's as hot as anybody. My favorite team in the bubble, by the way. I'm on record saying that. Okay. So then you have to be conflicted going into this finals, no? I'm not conflicted.

I think that the Lakers win relatively easy five games here. Really? Yeah, I do. I think that BAM out of Biles been great. I think the biggest thing that we haven't talked about this entire postseason is how small the heat are. Okay. The heat are not a very big in the front court. The Lakers have mobile bigs who can, I'm curious to see what BAM does against Dwight Howard.

Yeah. A very mobile big that can stick with him. And then, and then A.D., and then he plays against A.D. So is there any concern from your end about the flip side of that argument that is like someone of those bigs has to, to stick with Duncan Robinson coming off of like, he's at the four a lot for them. And he is, he is running off of a lot. There's a lot of action in his game.

Do you, is there any part of you that worries about the Lakers getting caught up and being too big, maybe? No, and not necessarily because of what they figured out in the Houston series is, you know, if you put AD at center, you're unstoppable. And I think AD is going to be the biggest X factor in the series. And that's something that you have talked about throughout the postseason. Even before we got to the postseason, AD is the biggest X factor. And I think if you put AD at center, I'm taking the Lakers small ball over anyone in the league right now.

I'm with you on that. Is that fair? I'm with you on it. So you imagine a series that, all right, better question. Who do you think makes the other team scale either, scale first? Like, do the heat have to scale up first to handle the size of the Lakers or do the Lakers have to scale down? I think it's what happens with whoever sets that tone, right? Because I think the Lakers just didn't set a tone with their front court against the Rockets.

And the Rockets kind of dictated those terms early on. If the Lakers can dictate terms and shut down, bam, early on with their size, then I think that it's going to be a relatively quick series. I'm with you. And I would take it a step further. there were plays in the Nugget series where Dwight Howard was as big as he could be at the front of the rim with Daniel Craig or somebody like, not Daniel Craig,

but what's the boy's name, Tori Craig? Tori Craig on his back, like on a straight pick and roll. I think the Lakers have to be willing to give him that ball. I know he's not Dwight from like those days, but all he's got to do is turn and dunk that on. My thing is this, though, this is the best part. Like, to have Dwight this good right now and all he has to do is focus,

something that we've been trying to ask him to do his whole career, focus on two things, defense and running the floor. That's all he has to do right now. And I think that's going to do wonders if all he has to do is focus on defense. One of the greatest defenders of all time. Yeah, he's tough. All he has to do is focus on defense. And I need you to, I need to offensive rebound like he did in game.

game six too. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Was it five game five, my bet. If the Lakers imposer will in the front court, this is a quick series. There's, I don't think that there's any argument there.

I'm going to take the Lakers in six. I worry about if from the Lakers perspective, not AD and LeBron, although I would say like Jimmy Butler and Andre Igo Dala statistically are two of the better defenders on LeBron.

Like that Iggy, you probably couldn't have foreseen this if you were a heat fan coming in. You didn't think you were going to find us. I want to talk about Igodala. I want to talk about Iguodal. All right, bad. That's insurance. Like, that's just insurance with Jimmy Butler. Those are two capable defenders.

I know one's stopping LeBron, but they're very capable. I worry about the Lakers' consistency around like the Alex Caruso's, the playoff Rondo, the Danny Green, who made, you know, big shots. but like, you know, I could make an argument where the heat have the better supporting cast. Clearly the Lakers have the star power, but I could make that argument is all I'm saying. You can't make that argument. I don't believe that, you know, with Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero, they're going to be good, but they're also up and down too, you know? True. You know, Tyler Harrow was great, and he was great down the stretch of game six, too.

I'm going to be wrong. He balled down the stretch. But those guys are up and down as well. And so that's just, that's just, I think that's just what it is right now. And you can make the same argument for the mining heat. Guys can be up and down. Will Jimmy, will Jimmy Butler play like he did in game six to start? Or will he play like he did most of the playoffs to start and is not as aggressive, right?

And we'll see. One thing I am concerned about is like, I felt this way in 04 with the Lakers when they went to the finals and they played the Pistons. and we were saying the same thing. Lakers are going to sweep. They have Carmelone. They have Shaq. They have Kobe. They have Gary Payton.

They have the super team. I think this Lakers team is better than that team. And I think a bit more focused than that team. There's a lot less drama than that O'4 team. Mm-hmm. But should we be concerned that the heat could pull a Detroit Pistons? It's, it's, uh, no. No.

No. I mean, I thought that he could get out of the east. I've always maintained that once they got to the Lakers, their true kryptonite was going to be that star power. I still believe that, Logan. I still believe that you don't have an answer for either one of those two. So I don't think they can beat them. I think that Detroit team had been together a little longer

and had more veteran leaders, guys that weren't maybe as erratic as you just alluded to Duncan and Tyler Hero. like there was some more stability there. Here's what concerns me. Another thing that concerns me about the Lakers, they're top heavy with LeBron and AD. Both of those guys can go through like low energy levels in games, right? You know what I'm saying?

Like it's just not realistic that LeBron has the type of game that he had in the last game where he's just on point guarding the other team's best player and he can lay it out there for 40 minutes. He can't do that. The heat are the type of team that are not going to stop playing. playing for anything. They're playing hard from first whistle to the last whistle, whether they make shots or not. That could be a concern for the Lakers, because the Lakers will go to sleep for you or on you for stretches of games. That's why they've gone. That's why the first round was five

games, right? That's why it took a minute for them to be Houston. Both of those series, in hindsight, if they're on, should be sweeps. And I think about that now with the heat, you know, are they going to Are they going to have trouble because they don't? I think that they're going to give up one game because they just don't care. That's just the game that, you know, LeBron is just not laboring, but he's just walking up the court. He's just standing in the corner. Those are the games that they're going to lose. If he's engaged, which he has been since that MVP debate that he had, this is going to be four or five games, in my opinion.

And speaking of LeBron, Paul Pierce had some words about LeBron talking about players are scared of LeBron. Now, I know that, you know, back in his day, when Jordan came to town, there were people legitimately scared of playing against Jordan. And I know that there's definitely a level of awe from opponents when they see LeBron on the other end. I wouldn't, I don't necessarily disagree that players are scared of LeBron. I mean, it just is what it is. He's the best player in the league right now. And he has been for some time. Paul Pierce says some wild shit sometimes. Like he just,

he says a lot of crazy. I'm not saying that he's wrong either. This is, I don't think this is as crazy as a take is when he said that he's a better shooting to Clay Thompson. Yeah. Yeah. Stop.

There's a generation, LeBron is playing in a generation of kids that, like, grew up watching. So there's some real reverence there. Like the first time I played against MJ, was that Wizards M.J? Wizards MJ in the preseason, 2002, we were in Happy Valley. We were playing at Penn State.

And there was not a bigger MJ fan than me. Like I sat with MJ when I was 13 years old after a practice when they were practicing in the Miami Heat. Every Bulls player got on the bus and left. MJ wouldn't sign shit. He got on the bus. And I was like walking away with my head down. And I was the last person there watching the bus leave.

And then the bus stopped. MJ got off the bus and sat down. down was waiting for somebody to pick him up to play golf. So I sat with MJ for like 30 minutes talking like, you know, just it was the coolest shit in the world. So like at 13, there was no bigger MJ fan than me. But when I saw him the first time, there was a little bit of me that was like, damn, this is coolest shit.

And then I went right to like I want I want everything I could get. So like I had 21 on him in a preseason game. How was it? How surreal was. Okay, first off, you opened something. How surreal was it? What do you talk about for, uh, for, 30 minutes with MJ at 13. Just everything. Like, so I was there for about 10 to 15, like,

Dolo, and then people started, like, there were probably about six or seven of us at the end. You know, we talked about, he was like, he asked me my shoe size. He was like, man, I give you, I give you mine, but your foot's bigger than mine. Like, I had on, I think the fives at the time, like, and the toe was all torn up. So he was like, man, what you've been doing, skateboarding the nose? And I was like, nah, just, you know, it was. Your shoes too expensive, bro. I can't buy them new. I like, yeah, let me. So it was pretty cool. No basketball because I was just in all of being in the presence of MJ.

Mike have an aura to him? I have pictures of that shit. I think there is a glow around Mike. There's like a, yeah, there's like a green glow around Mike in the pictures. He was cool as hell, like cool as hell. But the point, the overall point I was making was by the time I was, I don't know, 23 and I got to play against Mike, there was no fear in my heart. Like, that is, I, these are opportunities for me to like, to. put a stamp on on like who I'm going to be in this league. So if anyone out there is afraid of

LeBron, then they ain't the type of dudes you want to be getting into games with me. And you shouldn't have any fear. You can respect the hell out of a dude, have some reverence for him. You readily acknowledge not everybody's like you, right? I know a lot of cats in the NBA, but that aren't built like that. Like, and ultimately, like, you better pair them up with some real killers because, like, that shit gets you eating up. Yeah. And. And. What is, was Michael talking mess during when you guys are playing? This is Wizards Mike. No, unbeknownst to me at the time, Mike did not give a shit about a preseason game.

Like, I did not, I didn't realize that no one cared about preseason. I did because I was trying to make the team. So when we came out and played the Wizards like in, I don't know, second or third game in a season in D.C., I scored zero points and Mike probably had like 27, like and he stole the ball for me four times. But the point was, I didn't know, but I wasn't funny. Now, you didn't say shit. He just let me be. Okay, okay.

But I do get that people would be like, at least in awe of LeBron right now at this point, right? Year 17, he's a legend. He's in the conversation to be the greatest of all time. We all know even on the nights when LeBron comes to town, it's a different vibe. It's just different. And I know young guys are still like, oh, man, this is crazy. Yeah, look, there's some. real shit to that. I think LeBron, I think what helps those guys, though, okay, let me, let me,

let me use Kobe as a, like, a, um, kind of a comparison to LeBron. See, LeBron is more new school. No one's ever done that before, by the way. Yeah, right? That's hot take. Um, LeBron isn't like, uh, LeBron's friends with a lot of cats. Like, you know, he, he, he is from the, like, collective we, like, this is our league. Even though he's the king, like, he doesn't really have like real beef with a lot of people. Do you know what I mean? Like Kobe, on the other hand, like if he sensed any fear in you, he didn't like you anyway. So like he was trying to, like that was really. He didn't like you. He didn't like you. So that was bully mentality, right? Like if you, if I sense any fear, I smell blood, I'm like a shark in the water. Um, I don't think LeBron

necessarily is wired like that. So it probably saves some of these cats who might be afraid of him. But it's just a bad practice, bro. You can't, look, man, I mean, people raise their kids all different kind of ways. Like, if I see my sons act like they're afraid of somebody, bro, they got to deal with me when they get home. Like, so that's, that's just the way I put it. If you, if you going to be scared to him, then you're going to be actually scared to me. What do you say to a teammate that says, man, Abrano over there? Oh, man. Oh, my goodness. Hey, Roger. A, Roger, do you see him. Do you see his shoes?

I've had teammates, Logan, that don't want to guard the best play. I've had teammates. So, for instance, I played on teams. I'm not saying names today. Where teammates have said, you guard Tracy McGrady. Like, that's not my matchup. We didn't go over that in shoot-around. Like, I'm 6-5, T-Mex, like 6-8, 6-9.

It's a mismatch, but they don't want that smoke. So I've had to go over there and tried to do it the best. I could. But right then, I'm just putting, like, in my mind, I'm like, all right, I can't, I can't count on you, bro. You could be talented. I mean, I don't know, but I can't fuck with you like, bro, I don't. Do you say that to them or are you just like, bro, I don't. No, that's just in a memory back. We'll have the conversation, like, at dinner with, like, another teammate who I trust. You'd be like, you know, you was a punk right now just for saying that, right? Remember when you said that earlier? We were talking about, you know, you had wanted me to take McGrady when that wasn't in the scout and report? I got to take him, but, you know how you did that to him? If I'm sitting around with like our GM and we're looking to add pieces that we think can get us over to hump and you say said name to me and I say, nah, I don't really like, he ain't built like that, bro. Like, you know what I'm? Those are the, they're indictments on who you are, like whether I could trust you down the stretch or not. Bro, every, that's what I'm noticing. It's not just a basketball thing or a sports thing, bro.

Every to a certain level, everything you say to a person is like a job interview. Everything you say, right? Like, I'll take them. No, I won't take them. Roger, yo, just take the switch real quick, bro. You know what I mean? And you failed. Put him in that pile.

He's in the other pile now. So who was the, let's keep it lit, man. Who did you hate guarding? You wouldn't say it then, and you would still guard him. Who did you hate? Like, damn it, I got it. I can't go out tonight. I'm chilling.

Getting a good night's rest tonight. Gilbert Arenas was, was, was, was, a bitch to guard. I didn't, I didn't like guarding him very much. Why not? Because he just was so like crafty offensively. Just and pull up from Andy. Before people were really pulling it from like way out there. Like you was completely unpredictable. Like you just couldn't ever prepare for what was going to happen there. Um, I did not like guarding Carmelo at all. It was too physical. Um, he's a big boy too. Yeah. And I used to have to, they knew I would take charges on him. So a lot of coaches would put me in there on him. But that shit just hurt. It was, you hurt. You hurt.

the next day. He was going to make you pay for every charge you took. And then Genoblee. I didn't like, I didn't like, I didn't like, I didn't like, I didn't like, I didn't like, Genobley is an interesting one, right? Yeah. And he was new, it was a new style of basketball too. So you're having to figure that part out. And he's just so good. And he's coming off the bench. So you know he's on a tag mode all the way. What was it about Genobley that you were just, uh, it's just so slithery, like, or he's going to flop. Yeah, all of it, left-handed, um, which is, I don't know how many players there were. It was him and Tashon Prince, a few others.

But, like, you don't see that. He had that offbeat type of game that always kept you kind of like, you knew he would flop. So if you tried to get too close, there are like memes of like both of us like flopping or whatever they are. I feel like, yeah, I've seen you flop. And I don't know how I feel about that. But cool.

Get your buddy. Well, you have to flop against like Genoblee. Because if you don't flop, he's going to flop, right? So it was really weird like that. And then he was just so good at getting back to his left. And even though the game plan was pushing him right, the more you pushed him right, the more it opened up his ability to get back to his left. I just never really had great success guarding him.

I just, I didn't love playing him. What is it like playing up against the spurs like that when they're not a, they're not a team that talks trash? They just say, good job, good job, way to go. Like, they're not. But they give, I'm sure they give little bows and stuff on the low, but what is it like? playing against de novoly in the spurs when they don't they're not the the flashy team that at least outwardly that's going to just talk talk mess um infuriating because like we felt like and i've always

felt like they got the benefit of every single situation call like suspension um and i always felt like it all it all played into like their that brand that you just described right like, hey, we're the San Antonio Spurs. We do it the right way. And I loved it. Like, because, like, and it was part jealousy because I was in their camp. They were the first team to sign me and they kept me. I always wanted to play for them.

You seem like a prototypical Spurs player like in your 13th year, we get Raja. Like, why, how come that didn't happen? Why didn't you get back on what's going on? Was the Spurs ever an option for you after camp? I wasn't ready. They cut me for Derek Dyle. And admittedly, I wasn't ready. Like, I didn't, they ran a lot of pick and roll.

I didn't understand pick and roll. Pop has always said to me when I see him like, man, like I wish we had kept you should be on our team type of deal. He's a nice. It seems like he's a very, like, nice dude. I know he's not, I know that Pop isn't necessarily nice to us. No, Pop is a good dude, man. But he seems like a nice dude. Pop is a really good salt to the earth type of dude, man.

I had an opportunity. I sat out at last year in Utah because I wouldn't go back under their conditions. And then the next year, San Antonio flew me out. And it was expressed to me that it was going to be like, I was going to come out and play some pickup with Manu and Tim and those guys so they could kick the tires and see what I look like. So I was like, all right, like, I'll do that. I had come into the league in the meat markets, which were like free agent camps

where you go to a camp. They're like 30 of y'all. Y'all beat the shit out of each other. And like at the end of the two days, they may ask one of you to come back to like vet camp or something. So I had always vowed that I wasn't going to do that, like at the end of my career. But this was different because I was going to go out and play some pickup. They wanted to see if I was still in good shape.

And I always wanted to play for. When I got off the plane, I saw Kalina Azabuki and two other players. And I was like, huh. And my first indication to something was wrong was like nobody met me at baggage. So like that's how you know as an NBA dude. Like if nobody's there to get you at baggage, you're waiting. You're going to get a taxi? Yeah, I had to go out to the curb.

And I had to like wait around. And I was like, okay, this is. And then I saw Kalina and I saw another player. And then a van showed up. When the van shows up, I was like, it ain't no town car. Nothing. It was a white van. And I was like, oh, fuck.

So I get in the car. I start asking the dude who's driving the van some pointed questions about what the weekend is going to look like. And it was a free agent meat market. So I got to the hotel. I had my travel agent make me a flight back to Lake Florida. And I called R.C. Buford on the plane before we took off on the way back saying thanks, but no thanks. Oh, okay.

Yeah. I couldn't, there wasn't much I controlled in my career, bro, but like, I don't know what it was the way call. How'd I make you feel? Um, I could sleep at night because I always said I didn't want to do that anymore. Like, that's not the way I wanted to go out. I understand that. I understand that. You talked about Salt Lake City and Pop. I went to this, uh, this, um, restaurant called Walters in Salt Lake.

I'm sure you. That's my man. Okay. I went there before. It was real. Shout out Walters, man. You know what I mean? That was good.

But you see all these pictures of all. all these NBA players and all the, and you see a picture right in the middle, right when you go on the entrance, it's pop. Yeah. With a wine, yeah. He is going to sit there and drink a case of your finest, I'm sure. Volta started at a place. Did you ever go to Cochina, Tuscana?

It's like right around the corner from what used to be the Delta Center. But it was even closer to where we played. I used to, I just heard about it, you know, like Volta is a really big place in NBA circles, as you know. I just, it was right. I saw it I kept hearing about it. It was around the corner from my hotel at the time. So I just took a little, little scoot, scoop.

You feel me? Just mobbed over. I mean, I didn't know nothing else about that. But Walter, shout out Walter. Shout out, Pop. Shout out the Salt Lake. No doubt. I guess.

Let's take a quick break and we're going to pour out some liquor. Today's episode of the Real Ones is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. If you thought a cold, crisp summer Heinrich. with something, just wait until you taste the Heineken fall liner. Is it a new product? No.

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apparently there's Celtics fans in the building. I didn't know that. I didn't know that we had a, that was a thing here. I didn't know that we, this was like a Celtics run organization. I didn't know that that was a thing. So apparently it's not that hard to get Celtics fans at the ringer.

We got our guy, Jackson Safan. What's good, Brody? What's going on, guys? Thanks for having me on. A noted Celtics fan. Are you from Boston? What's,

what's the origin of this Celtics fan? My dad is born and raised in Boston. And so that's sort of just brainwash me from a young age, you know. Okay. Video producer, higher learning, doing big things for us at the Ringer. Yes, sir. I'm just going to give you the floor, man. The Celtics have lost.

We are, I don't know if you heard. We had some slander for Jason Tatum and coach Brad Stevens. Let's see what you have to say. You have a minute to just get all your grievances out. You have a minute. Slander for Jason Tatum. I don't know. I don't know about that.

But Brad got coached in circles by Spow. There's no doubts about it. It's unfortunate as a Brad supporter like I am, but Brad took him five games to figure out the zone. The Iggy substitution by Spoe in last night's game really just there was just no counter on Boston's end. And that was tough. I mean, as a guy who's been a Gordon Hayward supporter, and he looked great in game three in his first game back, man, it's tough to watch out there. That blown lap was brutal. And I was thinking about it.

When guys like Steph or KD shoot the ball, that's like you think it's going to go in every time. And there's like a range of guys you have confidence in, guys you don't have confidence in. I have close to zero confidence in Gordon Hayward shooting the basketball. He actually didn't even shoot it that bad last night when I went back and looked at the numbers. But man, when it's coming off his hand, I just, it's tough.

It's tough right now. What do you, okay, so I am of the mind of that Jason Tatum was about to be a bona fide superstar. Roger, all I think is all that Tatum needs to do, needs to just get to the free throw line. Roger is of a different mindset. I am of the mindset that Jason Tatum. Hold on.

I'm of the mindset that he's really skilled offensively, but I have concerns about whether he is the alpha, the guy that you have to have on that team to ultimately win championships, be the best player on the team. What do you think, Jackson? I think that I agree. He needs to get to the free time.

throw line more, but he's so young still. And I think that in a game like last night when he wasn't shooting the ball well to start the game, and he hasn't shot the ball well in the first quarter as the whole series, but he had eight assists at halftime, nearly a career high at half time. So like if he can level up in his playmaking and his passing, that is how you sort of compliment his lack of his not getting to the free throw line enough. Or if he's not the alpha dog that Southeast fans like myself would hope, even in theory, then at least you're supplementing it with great playmaking.

It's never going to be Luca Donchitz in that department, but at least getting eight assists in the first half yesterday was a positive side. Let's get to the shits, Jackson. We saw what Jason Tatum did during this postseason. We also saw what Jamal Murray did during this postseason. I'm going to put you in a GM. You're the new GM of the Boston Celtics, right? Wow.

What an honor. The Nuggets hit you. I say, hey, Jackson. I got an offer for you for a trade. I think I'm going to give you some Jamal Murray. And, you know, we know you got that extension. We'll just get a sign and trade to get Murray for Tatum. What are you saying right now?

I'm saying, can't do it right now with the current roster construction. Got Kemba under contract for a few years. But if we had a little bit of something closer on the line of the lines of Jamal Murray and Jeremy Grant for Kemba and Tatum. Now we're closer. We're closer. Oh. I'm not saying we're there.

I'm saying we're closer. He just said how good Jason Tatum in and just shipped his ass off right away. Shipped his ass out. That's my man. That's my guy. I like where he's at, though, because my question was going to be, like, roster-wise with this team. Like, what do you think they need going forward?

Or is this it? They just need another year together of growth. I don't have a problem with them running it back for one more year. It was close. The points differential in the heat series was like three points before last night's game. We got blown out, obviously. But I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of running it back.

And I like Daniel Tice. I think he's been great. He struggled mightily with BAM. I think upgrading the center position is got to be the goal, even if Tice is good, whether it's a guy before the season, funny enough, I was really of the mindset that the Celtics should trade Jalen Brown for

Domata Sabonis. I turned out to be dead wrong there because Jalen Brown level. up. Sabonis got injured. I was wrong, obviously. But I still think that that's sort of like... Are you sure you can be GM of the Celtics? No, but here's what I got, though. Here's what I got. We'll do a little Indiana thing where we trade Gordon Hayward and Romeo Langford to Indiana boys for one of the two Pacers Biggs, whichever one. Miles Turner or Sabonis. Either would be an upgrade. Whichever they take? Yeah, whichever they don't want. I don't know if Gordon Hayward's value is that high

right now, playboy. Yeah, it's not at a high point. I'll say it. I don't think that's happening, bro. I'm sorry. I don't think that's not happening. No, it's not going to happen. I know. So that's why I don't really know the move, what the next move is is tough. I think at this point, if you can't trade Gordon Hayward going into the last year of his contract, assuming he opts in, it's a player option. Assuming he opts in, you kind of got to just run it back. All right. I got another question for him. Let's say we could have done purely playoff basketball here, right? Like this had nothing to do with the regular season. Relationships and the lack thereof aren't, aren't a part of the

conversation. But Kemba, Kyrie, who would you have rathered for that Boston series against Miami? Who would have been the better fit in that particular series? Kemba or Kyrie? Hmm. That's a tough one. I think taking the personality things out of it is a big factor, because obviously Kemba much better fit with Tatum and Brown in terms of personality fit. I don't really think it would have mattered. Like, I think Kemba in a vacuum is a better, more skilled, offensive player than Kemba. But in a series where, Miami's playing so much zone and they're doing so much switching and their guys are so good at switching, it's not like Kyrie's really going to be that much of an upgrade, I don't think.

Kyrie is a guy that can get a bucket though. That's correct. He's going to get a bunch of business. Is he really that much better against the zone, though? Like, the zone is such a different wrinkle. If they're playing man the whole time, I agree. I'm talking about a dude that can get a bucket. I'm taking Kyrie over Kimber to get a bucket in the playoffs.

He hit the greatest shot in Cavaliers history. Like if Roger stays one more year Maybe I'm just bitter after watching him give up Against the Milwaukee Bucks two seasons ago Two playoffs ago That's probably what it is That's my man I got a little bitter taste in my mouth

The last time watching Kyrie in the playoffs All right All right you've gotten a lot of disappointment I don't know what you're sipping right now I got some essential water I don't know what Roger got something in his cup Let's pour out some liquor for your Celtics bro Hey it was a good run

It was a good run All right, man, thanks for coming on, Jackson, man. Hopefully we see you next time under different circumstances. Maybe not. But thanks for coming on, gee. Appreciate it. All right, now we're back with Wobble Talk with Jordan Liggins, our WMBA correspondent,

the goat of the NBA coverage. We're talking on the eve of Game 5 of the Western. Was it the Western Conference Finals, doing or is this just the how do we do this is the conference finals how does it work right now with the wmba yeah it's like conference finals but it's really just the semifinals like jewel lloyd through shade because like the NBA got shirts and hats but the wmba doesn't get that it's not it's just weird how that works out okay let's just say like this is the semifinals yeah the game five of the semifinals between the sun and the los vegas aces this has been one of the the better series of

the WMBA finals that I wasn't necessarily expecting. Once the, once the sparks got out, I was just like, okay, it's going to be between the Aces and the Seattle Storm. This is going to be collision course to the W&BA finals. But the Sun have made this a really compelling semifinals, you know, and I wasn't expecting this going into a game five, but Angel McCottery brought something out. It was like Atlanta Dream, Angel McClure. It was like Atlanta Dream, Angel McCotry, who just bawled out in game four of the of the semifinals to force a game five, why haven't we seen this from Angel Mcotry all season? Why has she been so inconsistent?

And why have we finally seen this now? This is what we need from her every single game for the Aces to have a chance. She has to bring her veteran presence and bring out vintage Angel McAuchy, who brought the dream to three finals over the course of her career. and she showed up. She scored 16 points in the third quarter. She was unconscious. And even Asia tweeted after the game that this is the player that they need for them to have a chance. They said, she tweeted, we need this Angel.

And that's exactly what we need. I was texting with Shea Serrano and I'm like, yo, man, she's finally showed up. It's about damn time. And I was a little skeptical going into the season with Angel because, quite frankly, sometimes it's not the biggest fan of her game because it's tunnel vision and she just, it's not, Roger, it's sometimes with Angel's game that frustrates me, she's so talented. She's such a baller. But she's one of those players that she's just going to get her own offense and she leaves

a lot of players like this. Like, hey, man, give me the ball. Give me the ball in the corner. There's a lot of that in her game where it's a lot of 39 points, but there's like one assist and four turnovers. Yeah. That's why I was frustrated with her game. But I think if she plays like this,

the aces can have a shot at the title. Yeah, and I was worried about that too. I was like, I don't think that's going to work with Asia Wilson. Like she has good players on her team this year, where in Atlanta, it was all on her. If she didn't have 39 points, they didn't even have a chance.

So I was worried because she has help. And she's kind of just taking her chance. Like she said, okay, I'm sure in half time, She was like, I'm going to shoot every shot in the third quarter. Just be good with that. Everything. And then in fourth quarter, I'll start passing. But yeah, she went for it.

And I'm so happy she finally turned up. Is all of that mood, though? Like, you're talking about all of that. But is it Seattle's, like, title to lose at this point? Like, I feel like, I don't even, admittedly, I'm not as informed as you guys. We're going to, these are all good storylines. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Yeah, I think so. But I do, before we get to Seattle, Raj. I do want to talk about the sun real. quick because I think we'll be remissed if we don't talk about how good the sun have been, a seven seed on the brink of a WMBA title. I mean, not on the brink of a WMBA finals birth.

They've been really good, and a lot of that has to do with Alyssa Thomas and how she's balled up, balled out. And there's a story that was in the New York Times that Gina Mizelle wrote, which is really good. You guys to go check it out. how the Connecticut Sun are being fueled by perceived disrespect. And I know I've disrespected them. I know I have.

And I just, I was really upset when they, when they just took apart the sparks. And I was just felt some type of way. And I was like, it's all good because they're about to get swept anyway. I was in that camp of disrespecting them. It seems like they've taken that.

How far can that go? Because I think they could still beat the ACEs. They've shown that they can play with them. Well, I have a problem with the disrespect storyline. Okay. Because I think it's kind of made up. I don't think anyone is really thinking that. Well, they started O and 5, and everyone was really surprised by that because they did get Dawanna Bonner.

And everyone was expecting them to return back to the finals because they've, you know, they've gotten better from last year. They don't have John Quill Jones this year. But everyone was expecting them to get better. So once they started 0 and 5, everyone was like, oh, the sun are out. Then they've started playing better since then. So the rest of the season. So I don't know where the disrespect is really coming in because they're a really great team. Raja knows this.

Like, athletes are weirdos and they love to like make up stuff so they can have a chip on their shoulder. That's exactly what it is. You can hold on to. Yeah, that's what it is. That's what's fueling them right now. I think maybe it's their PR. They're just making up stories or something. I could be like to an athlete, hey, how you doing it?

Like, why you say it like that? Up in to score 30 on you. You know what I mean? I've been to win all this. No, you started the season 0 and 5. That's what happened. That's what happened. That's what really happened, guys.

Right. But I don't know. I think that, but are we sleeping on them or is that a mute point? Is that a moot point? I expected this to go five games, honestly, because of a lot. Alyssa Thomas and how she's playing on zero shoulders right now and is just a beast in the boards and the aces really don't have an answer for her. But it's going to take like Angel Makachi stepping up, Asia Wilson playing like the MVP that she is for them to get past and win game five.

So let's get to, um, wait, let's get a, before you go, let's get a prediction. Who's, who's, who's winning game five? It's supposed to want to spot, Jordan. I'm going with the aces. I'm going to be confident in that. They're going to win in. Jackie Young plays less minutes. Okay. I'm messy. I'm going to pick the ace.

I'm going to pick the son. I'm going to be messy and pick the sun just because you said that. And I'm here to talk mess to you and Shay and Marcus Thompson and all these, all these, these fake Aces fans out here. Y'all I mean, y'all was, I'll just, okay. I think he made an Aisist fan last year because of Liz Cambage. She should have been a spark. She should have been a. She should have been a spark.

But Roger touched on this a little bit. The Seattle Storm have been mashing all through the playoffs. There hasn't really been. There hasn't been, they had their two buys, and they just made easy work

at the Minnesota links. Are they just going to just straight up mob? I'm just going to take Roger's question. They're just going to straight up and win an WMBA title. Do we have, do we even know anybody that's going to just compete with them at all? I think the aces can. Unfortunately, I think Seattle still wins,

but I think the Aces could make it competitive. The Storm have only lost three games in the regular season, and the Aces beat them twice. So I think they match up well with them. I love, you know, the MVP race in the Post with Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson. I think of Connecticut advances, it'll be historic because they knocked out the number one C, but they will lose to Seattle. They were going to get swept. They will get swept. The aases, it will be competitive. Do the Aces have a chance to win the series, though? Oh. No, she's saying it.

It would have to take, you know, a 30-point Angel game and a 30-point. Angel has to act like she's in Atlanta still. Yes, yes. And she has to go in there and say, you know what, don't cry. I'm not passing you the ball. I want a championship. And they all just have to get on board. with that. And Caleb McBride has to hit a couple shots. That's what we have to happen. She got to do what Jason Tatum needed to do last night. Oh. Oh. What? What? What? Sorry. Is your mic on? Is your mic on? Oops. I think I just want to give something out like we,

I think we need to put some respect on Brianna Stewart's name. She had a torn Achilles, Raja. She had a torn Achilles. And it's still a top five player in this league. Yeah, that's crazy. Tough. Yeah, you don't come back from now. looking anything like you looked before. That's crazy. I'm just, and before we get out of here, Jordan, I saw on the rundown. I put down the rundown for the WMBA talk

and you added something. You added that there's shade on Candace Parker's name because of the defensive player of the year. There's shade on that? Can you tell me more about this shade? There is shade. And people are saying that she might not have deserved it. again over Alyssa Thomas

who led the league in steals and was second in rebounding and when you look at Elizabeth Thomas you say she's a great defender and people are saying when you look at Candace Parker she's a great score but maybe not the defensive player of the year and maybe it was like a pity award

I'm sorry I didn't say it this is what WMBA Twitter is saying because she didn't win WMBA the MVP because they didn't go far this year, they're like, here, Candice, you could have defensive player for the year. Wow. They said they're giving a defensive player the year for charity.

That's what's going around. That's what the street is saying? Yeah. I'm sorry to. Put some respect on Candace's name. Let's some respect on Candice's name. Okay. I'm not going to take this.

This is disrespectful. Okay. And the fact of the matter is if the sparks beat the sun they're winning in the WMBA title. I'm just going to put that out there. Ooh, okay. You know what I mean? They beat the Aces.

Another team that should, if Jewel Lloyd stepped out of bounds during the Sparks, during a Spark Seattle game, the Sparks should have won that game. You are sitting in an impartial seat, sir. I do not feel like this is impartial analysis. Oh, my gosh. I don't agree. I don't agree with the shade. All right.

So let's go pick right now. WMBA title picks before we get out of here. I'm going to go with the storm. Roger, who are you going with? I'm taking the storm. I don't want to do this, but I'm going to be contrarian. Let's pick the Ais. Let's do it.

Oh, okay. You're going to pick Connecticut to win tomorrow, but the Aces to win it to win it all. Well done, Jordan. Well done. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what I'm going to do.

Perfect. I don't expect anything less. You know the vibes. Thank you so much, Jordan, for coming on. It's going to be a weekly thing. We're going to have Jordan on, at least until the for the rest of the WMBA playoffs in postseason. It's going to be a joy to have you on. So thank you so much for coming.

We'll see you next week. Thank you. Bye, Jordan. Bye. Now it's time for another segment, Roger, that we hold near and dear to our hearts. It's one of the backbones of this show. Namesake, bro. It's time for a real one of the week.

We shout out somebody that embodies all the character that we feel is a real one. real one. Yeah. My real one of the week is Andre Iguada. Oh. Elimination game, Andre Iguodala, closed out Andre Iguodala, hit five threes in a close out game to make his six straight NBA finals appearance. I mean, I've covered him a couple of, for a couple years in Golden State, class

sack, a real funny dude, real eclectic dude. Real one of the week. Andre Gooddow. I can't be mad at that. I like, I like Dre. Dre's always been a good dude, man. I'm going to go on the flip side of that coin, and my real one of the week will be one LeBron James,

close out game himself. And while all the talk was the torch needing to be passed to Anthony Davis, and while it probably does over the long haul, at least in the close-out game scenario. LeBron dropped 38, 16, and 10 on 60% shooting, undertook the task of guarding, if that's even a word. Jamal Murray helping shut that down. Seven to eight free throws, not shabby for a dude who's in the 60% rage.

And he himself has been in now eight of the last nine finals. So my real one of the week is LeBron James. It's a really good call. And that has been our show. This has been, it's hard. I'm already saying like it's been the Monday edition of the Ringer NBA show. No, it's not the Monday edition of the Ringer NBA show. It is the real ones.

It is the episode of the real ones. Right. We out here. We got new names. We got, I don't know if you know, but we got new tunes. And if you're afraid of LeBron, you ain't no damn real one. I ain't say that earlier, but it said, ah, ah. I want to flexes.

Drop one of clues bombs. Lace's his shoes just like you do. Ah! All right. I just had to do it. It's early in the morning. I had to get up. All right, man.

In addition to the real ones, make sure you check out our other shows on the Ringer NBA feed. We got the mismatch, Roger. We got group chat, and we got some surprises for you guys during the NBA finals. We got some stuff, man.

You know, we did a live show last week. You might have some stuff in the works. And, you know, I'm just going to give them. a little taste. Some foreshadowing? Some foreshadowing? I don't know.

Maybe. I just said you need to tap in. You need to lock in. We got some stuff for you. We also got R2C2 with Vallejo legend C-C-Sabathia, real Bay legend, Raja. Vallejo. The Valley Joe. You know what I mean?

You know what I mean? Piedmont's finest. No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no. My bad. I don't disrespect Cici like that, okay. With Cici Sabathe and Ryan Rucco. We also have some cool stuff on the Ringer NFL feed.

tap in. A friend of the show, Chris Vernon, is also doing the Ringer NFL shows all week long. We got NFL season popping. We got MLB playoffs popping. We got the NBA finals about to pop off. It's about to be a vibe here, man. As a curator of vibes, you know this. It is a vibe.

It's what you young people. Is it lit? Am I too late with that? Like that was last year? Lit? No? Yeah, you're talking like a Pied, my resume. You need to chill out.

Take it. Make sure you check out all our stuff on Spotify, follow along, follow us on socials, send Roger a telegram. Yeah. Carrier pigeons. I like, they're like flying around right now. Send them, send them a card or something. I don't know.

But we're here, man, and we're going to see you next week on another edition of the real ones. See you soon.