The Ringer NBA Show - Mitchell and Murray Face Off, Kawhi Clinches the First Round, and Blazers and Mavericks Head Home | Real Ones

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

Logan and Raja discuss the incredible back-and-forth guard play between Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray in the Jazz-Nuggets series (5:22), what moves the homeward-bound Trail Blazers need to make in order to be a real title contender (32:35), Kawhi’s outstanding play and Marcus Morris’s dirty play to send the Mavericks home (45:39), and finally The Ringer’s Jason Gallagher joins the show to pour a little liquor out for his Mavericks (49:35). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Jason Gallagher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Or on West Virginia, visit www. www. www.1-800 gambler. net. In Indiana, you can call 1-8009 with it. Or in Colorado, call 1-800-522-470. Welcome to the Monday edition of the Ringer NBA show. I am Logan Murdoch staff writer, NHT Stepper, Rihanna Navy co-chair, town representative. And I am joined, as always by the curator of vibes, staff writer, perennial loser of the sneakers app, a media mogul. Wait, wait, this is just going to turn into like kill. me with nickname segment? Okay, Roger Bell, and yes, it is.

What's popping, bro? I'm good. I told you, I'm already warmed up. So if you get me like, if you, if I'm rolling with the tongue more than normal, because I've been warmed up for an hour now. I got a tennis match in about another hour. So it required. Oh, you got a tennis match, young, young Arthur Ash here?

Yes, young. Is that second career? Correct. What's going on right now? No, so I came up playing tennis. and my dad's really into tennis. So, you know, because of COVID, we've had to shut down a lot of our,

like, you know, regular sporting outings with the kids. And this is the way we get out our competitive, like, juices, bro. I don't know why, but I'm going to make funny about this. I don't even know why. Because you brought out a great point about tennis and, like, you know, the history of it. Right. So I don't get these jokes.

How was your weekend? Weekend was good. Yeah, it was real good, man. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, yeah, man. I had a little birthday this weekend, man. Happy belated birthday. So like what is that for you?

Uh, 27. I can't, how do that make you feel? And really, really old. Thanks for like, like highlighting that. What is, what is 27 year old birthday in COVID look like? Uh, just one up to sag, come with some fam and got some ice cream cake. That's pretty much what it was. It was, it was, it was cool, but I don't really turn up anyway.

So it was, it was just, you know, it's cool, man. A little, little, little, little, little, little family vibe. Happy belated, bro. Yeah. Yeah. You ever play tennis versus Nash or anything? Do you ever play? Do your teammates know that you play tennis? My teammates knew that I had played tennis. And I don't think Steve and I ever played, but he's heavy into the game. Kobe and Rob Polinka apparently were heavy into the game post-career. So it's a really good sport. And a lot of the movements, not to like turn this into a tennis slash basketball pot, but a lot of that like side-to-side, like quick burst is really beneficial when you try to cross-train.

Oh, yeah, especially for defense, right? Like, it's just the same movements, right? Yep, a lot of shuffling, a lot of quick cutting. Same muscles. I would make the joke that like, hey, man, when next time we see each other, we should go play tennis? No, not going to happen. No, because that's tiring, bro.

And I'm too nice for that. Okay, well, all right, well, all right. That's fine. You could call, you call wherever, I mean, if anybody wants to smoke, like, I'm not even front. Could you have been a pro? I could not. There's a lot better than me. I'm better. I'm better. That's factual.

Okay. Okay. All right. All right. Before we get into stuff, though, I just want to have a quick, a little note. We're recording this at 8.19 a.m. Western, or Pacific Time, excuse me. We had a show earlier this week, or a live reaction show. We threw up some, threw up a little prompt about getting names. There's been a lot of dope names coming. I've seen a lot of cool stuff. We need some more suggestions. So if you guys got names, send Raja a fax or something because he does not have social media. Just go into my mentions. Send him a fax. Send him like a notarized note or something like that.

I don't know. What do you do old people do right now without social? I mean, like your basic like Morris Code type of messaging, I don't know. Like any type of, what they used to do when they go from like those old Westerns and they run into like the telegram? The telegram. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Just I don't know. You're probably not going to get Roger. You're probably not going to answer the phone. But whatever. But yeah, send us your name suggestions. Get right into the show. Okay. Nuggets Jazz. Game six. Did you watch that, Roger? Did I watch it? Listen, I was the guy who like, that was going to be my favorite game from the, from when the slate came out. You saw the schedule and you were like, yeah, I was like, I got to see that. That's my game. Yeah. Yeah. So, Jamal Murray became just, that's the third player to get multiple 50 point games in a playoff series. The last one was Alan Iverson in 01. And before that it was MJ in 88. What is, he just seems on a different level, Jamal Murray does. He just seems like he's playing.

It reminds me, honestly, of Iverson in 01 against the Raptors. He's going up against Donovan Mitchell. Two really great scores that seem to be coming into their own within their first five years of the league, right? Yep. What does it like to see that, man? Because at least for me, it's very entertaining. And I wish this series got a bit more pub than it did or than it's doing right now because

you've got two small market teams. Don't have like huge followings like that right now. So we're more inclined to watch the Blazers, Lakers, five game series, and we are to watch this one. But this is the most entertaining series early in the postseason. It's been great, man. Hey, look, this is, so you just kind of talked about it. Well, I found myself sitting there last night watching it to myself,

not even knowing the stats supporting that this was, you know, the closest thing to that 2001 series. I found myself sitting there saying, damn, the last time I saw two cats just go at it like this. And they've had great help from their teammates, just like AI and Vince did. But just aesthetically, it looks like you just have two dudes, just one-upping each other offensively.

And I said to myself, man, this really feels like when I was like a young player in the league and I had a front row seat to watch those two in that phenomenal 2001 playoff series. It is just, when you get in that zone, like I don't know how to describe it. Like a zone doesn't have to be a one-night zone. Like the grades can dip into like a playoff zone

where they're just scorching. And I think you see that with two guys who are gifted offensively, like really gifted. Yeah. But they're playing above their left. level. Do you know what I mean? Like that's not a sustainable level for either one of them to play. They're both phenomenal, but they're in a zone on top of that. And that's, that shit's really, really cool to watch. And so I was on last week and we had, I was on with Ryan and, and he asked me the question about Donovan versus, versus Jamal. This was pre-Gemal going off again. And I took Donovan slightly, but I'm interested to hear like where you're at with that. Because you're right. They're on the same kind of path in terms of years played and stardom and all of that. Like, what, we, we, we Does one of them float your boat more than the other? I think that I got, I think I'm still caught up in the Donovan Mitchell.

Just, I guess his early season career, he didn't win the rookie. He wasn't a rookie of the year conversation. But it's, I think that they're getting, they're getting on equal playing field right now. And I think that. We've talked about this, haven't we? You said that before too. I hate that, I hate that, though. What?

Because you're right, you're right. But I think Jamal is, I think, I don't, no. You're right. And I also don't want to get caught up in the moment, man, but I do think that they're on level. Just I think that Donald Mitchell just has a shoe deal right now. You know what I'm saying? He just has a signature shoe.

And I think that's the difference right now. But I do not want to get caught up in that. I don't want to get caught up in the moment, but I'm getting caught up in the moment right now. You know, Chris Bussard said that Donald Mitchell was D-Wa with a three. I don't know about that. I don't know. I don't know.

You got a long way to go before. Yeah, bro. Also, you can't, you know, De Wade also, what, in this third year made it to the final? So, like, you know, I don't know about all that. But I do want to see more of a body of work from these guys before I can make a true, say who's better and who's not right now. I think that they're, I think they're about even right now at this point. And like, Jamal Murray's out here, ISO and dudes. He's out here saying, he's out here pointing dudes out and going to the cup like, dude is, dude is, dude is balling right now. Jamal Murray, if you saw Chuck and Shaq in them at half time, like Chuck made a joke about him clowning, but he really is out there when he starts feeling it, doing shit that if you're an opponent, you're probably being like, yo, dog, you ain't need to do all of that.

What's it like when somebody calls you out and then scores on you? I mean, you could get the high road to say it's never happened before. Like, okay, fine, but I don't want to know the real, Roger. No, there's a gentleman's code for most of that. Like, like, if I'm not engaged in, in the exchange of shit talk, then if you're going to come out your mouth and say something to me after you get a bucket, then I'm going to feel some kind of way about that. Like that now, now the all bets are off. But, you know, if we are talking, then that's fair game. I felt like some of what Jamal was doing, like, and it wasn't disrespectful.

But he was just feeling it to the degree that he was doing. But that's the kind of player that Jamal Murray kind of is. I have no beef with you. And that's not even disrespect. He's just a guy that is just real confident in himself. And he's the one that's throwing up signs when he, when he scores. He's the one that's talking shit when he scores. This isn't new.

Right, right. But it's not new. I don't know. Like that's an old school taking me kind of like Chuck. Like when you do that, then you may make yourself a little bit more open for the, hey, man, I got to make you get up off the ground and knock down these free throws. Like nobody's saying that about Donovan and Donovan. Donovan had close to 50, but it's just, you know, kind of the aesthetics of it.

You're like, all right, well, if you go, you're going to rub it in my face every time you get a bucket, then I'm going to have to do something about it. Okay. We'll get to this. Okay, Marcus Morris, down to that. We'll get to that later. Do you, we talked about this early in the segment, but like you, you did play in that Iverson series against Vince, the Raptors versus Sixers back in the O-1 semifinals. If I remember correctly, you guys played the Bucks in the conference finals. What was that like seeing it up close?

Do you have any vibes to tell us? Do you have any vibes to share with us? I don't have a great story. I was kind of soul searching for one. You got to remember I was just kind of, I had just got there. I was happy to be there and everything was happening so fast. Some of it wasn't really sinking in. But I do remember sitting there because a lot of that time I sat on the floor,

because those benches were, you know, you had so many people on the roster. And I remember just watching the two of them. And it felt like, again, I know there were great supporting cast. Like, I remember the faces. But when it boiled down to it, it felt like I was seeing like eight shadows, like, with kind of faceless people and no numbers on their jerseys. And two, like, stars that were, you know, just being highlighted. And that's all I remember.

I just remember Chuck and Vince. And, you know, again, there were great other players in the series, but those two were just, it was like watching a one-on-one, you know, best to seven. Yeah, right. Yeah, I remember watching as a kid, it was, it was just crazy. It was like a heavyweight fight, you know, literally to the last shot. So that was a fun series of watch.

So back to him, Jamal Murray. And that game six, he wore, he wore some Adidas with George Floyd on one and Brianna Taylor on the other. And this is coming after. we both been a part of this, Roger, the week that will live in infamy of the NBA when these guys going to strike, they're demanding, you know, the bucks going to strike, they demand accountability and to arrest accountability for the cops that shot Jacob Blake. And, you know, and then that goes into players demanding arena. be voting stations and a lot of different things are happening. But I do want to get to Murray, who was very emotional after that game with T&T.

He says, quote, I play with a lot of heart, play with a lot of passion. And when you're fighting for something, it means a whole lot more. And we've been fighting this fight for a long time and we're tired of being tired. It is an emotional thing because it's lives. It's not just your life. Imagine use your life. I don't know what to say. Imagine a father losing their life while they have kids.

Imagine a father, a son, a brother getting shot seven times in front of their kids. Imagine that. He was really emotional. What has this kind of week been for you and just everything that's going on? Yeah, well, first of all, let me just, I thought his post game was really, really dope. I thought that you saw the best case. scenario play out for the players once they decided that they were going to stay and use the platform, right? Like, you had someone go completely ham and just electrified, like, the basketball

world. And then to be interviewed postgame, have the shoes. And then you could see the emotion, like the raw emotion that a lot of those guys in that bubble have to be feeling. I thought it was, I thought it was really cool to watch. For me personally, Logan, you know, it's, it's my it's my life, like the same way it's probably been your life. So I have a lot of people asking me about it and I'm like, well, this shit ain't new for me. Like this is, you know, it is what it is. I, watching the NBA, the WMBA, and then other leagues decide to stand with them has been really, really cool. Like I am really proud of all of those players in that bubble of the, you know, of the ladies in the bubble,

like I think it's, it's been really cool to see them use their platform to at least try to leverage their position here. You know what I mean? But like in terms of me personally, it's just, I mean, this has always been my interaction with police. Like I was, you know,

I'd be put in cars and brought home for jogging. Like my mom would have to, yeah, like, my mom would be like, why is he in the car? And they were like, well, he's jogging. Well, he didn't, okay. And well, you don't have on running shoes. Well, we can't have. afford them. Like, you know, like shit like that, you know, and so it's, it's nothing new,

but I have three young boys, right? And so this is, let's, like, I have three young boys. My wife is white. The conversations that we have are interesting, though, because while they are halfway, they won't be viewed as such when they're out in the world. They will be viewed as black men, you know? And so the conversations that I have with them are that of a black man. And, and, and, and, and, and, Those are tough because they're only 13, 9, and 11. But I have to explain to them, like, look, this is how we operate with police. And the conversation isn't, cops are bad. It's not that.

It's like, look, there are good people and they're bad people in every walk of life, right? You just want to make sure that you're erring on the side of caution all the time when we're dealing with anybody because we don't, you know, we want you coming home. You know what I mean? And those have been difficult conversations. Well, yeah, man, because, I mean, you're still Roger Bell, but like when you're you go out there, you're still a black man, you're still subject to all these things, and I'm still subject to all these things. And Van Leithen said something that was really poignant during our

emergency pot earlier this week and was talking about how all this stuff is connected. People try to people try to separate sports and politics. You know, there's always the argument, you know, get those politics out of my sport, get all these things out of my sport. But I think now you're seeing that this is all connected. This is ever this doesn't if you want like Van said if you want your sports you're showing now that yo you got to be down with

being down with equality you have to be down with because it's not a left issue. It's not a right issue. It's a human issue. People are getting killed out here man. People are getting popped all the time and there was this I was I was just doing some research on this and that's

something that mean you don't already know but blacks are shot by the cops at a disproportionate rate than white people. Hispanics are shot by the police at a disproportionate rate than white people. And this is something that you see time and time again. It's not just a gender thing. George Floyd gets pop. Brianna Taylor gets pop.

There's so many different things that go into this. And these guys see this, man. Just like how you said, LeBron James has kids. All these guys have kids. They see this and it could be, it could be anyone. No one is exempt from this. I thought it was really interesting. First, like when you just said people know what politics in their sports,

people don't care about politics and their sports as long as it align with people's own politics. Right. They only really have a beef when that shit don't vibe with what you're talking about. They didn't really care when the national anthem was being played after 9-11. Yeah, nobody gave it. That wasn't, you know, I was patriotic, but that's still politics and sports. It's politics and sports. So what the other part was like, and I heard a lot of this as it pertained to like,

NBA players and, you know, the privilege that they have and, and, and, you know, all of this. And my point was like, look, man, a lot of those guys are so visible, so marketable, so famous, that they might not be able to be taking advantage of in a situation like that as easily as someone else, right? And so they might not have the worry for themselves necessarily. But everybody in that bubble's got a daddy, you know, most of them have. brothers or sons, and they're real concerns for people who don't have faces on billboards, you know, so it touches everybody. So, like, just because he's LeBron James or Janice and a police officer might know him or publicly they might not be able to be abused like that,

there are people in their lives that are susceptible to that. And that's a real concern. Like, people are scared. Yeah. And, you know, even with the 9-11 thing that I just said, I'm just trying to make the point that there is politics. are in sports. And obviously it's like we all love this country. That's why we want to make it better, right? We do we want to uphold everything that has to do with that. That the flag

says it represents, right? We want equality. We want all these things. And I just I think that and as a protests are as American as apple pie. That's how we literally got this country through

revolution. We got it through speaking up and demand. what is right. And that's not even just a black thing. That is literally how the Revolutionary Wars started. The United States of America thing. Right. And this is how this happens. And it just happens to be the minority that are speaking up. And I think that, you know, we'll see what happens. But I think it's a lot of feelings that have to do with a lot of feelings that these guys had going into the bubble, right? I think that just manifested again. with this shooting in Kenosha.

It just manifested. It just bubbled up again. I think the players did a really great job of getting at the end of the day when we see it. Because in the moment, we didn't know what exactly was happening, what plan was. But I think when the dust settles, the players, they got voting places in these arenas. They got more, right? And they also show that they have leverage. Hey, man, like, it's crazy to think.

These guys sat out games. These guys said, we are going to strike. I don't even know if that happens. That's never happened. I don't know what that happens a year ago. I don't know if that happens five years ago. I don't know if that happens. That was mind-boggling just to see that.

Yeah, and not as a league as a team. Like, you may have seen the individual, you know, do something like that, but not as a collective unit. It was super, super cool. And I do think they did a good job. But you and I spoke, I mean, one of our earlier pods about when the NBA owners decided they were going to give a million a year. It was 10 million? Was it 10 million? It was a 300 million contribution as a whole.

As a whole, right. Over the course of 10 years, I think it was. But you heard Jalen Brown recently come out and have some quotes that, you know, allude to the fact that he's concerned, you know, to some degree about ownership, holding up their end of the bargain. When it comes to some of the things that were demands of the players, where are you on that? How do you feel about that? You think everyone's going to just hold up there under the bargain without fail? Or do you think there's some gray area there? I think that with everything, there needs to be oversight and you have to lay their feet to the fire to make sure it happens, right?

I mean, that's why in Washington, D.C., they have oversight committees to make sure these plans put in place keep happening. And that's why you have to at least now have the threat of a strike, right? You have to at least now have a threat that, you know, if our demands aren't being met and you guys aren't saying what you guys said you're going to do, then we can bounce. We've done this before. So I think that, you know, and that's something that I've always felt too is, you know, Jalen's right, man. This is so new right now that we don't know if the league is going to continue to do this. you have to make sure you keep the pressure on. And I think Chris Haynes of Yahoo Sports had a report out basically.

And I think Mark Spears of the undefeated also said this as well, where there were a lot of, you know, at the beginning of this bubble, there was a lot of Black Lives Matter, guys wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt and things like that. And that kind of trickled down, you know, that kind of started to wear off. You know, ball boys stopped wearing that stuff. And people got a little too comfortable. And the issues, it didn't seem like they were being taken seriously as the bubble kept going. And that was a fear that players had going into the bubble. And this kind of put a spark into everybody of like, hey, man, this ain't over. And it's not going to end in three months.

We talk about it on the emergency pod. This is not going to end in three months. Yeah, I think that, you know, the players, the fact that they have a. you know, the threat of a strike now, I think it's good for what they want to accomplish. So this is going to be interesting, right? Because anytime you're talking about striking, my only experience with it is, is, you know, and it's not a true strike because we were locked out, but it's a lockout situation where you're a collective group and you're trying to leverage and get what you can out of another group, which would have been the owners, right?

But to do that, man, you got to have solidarity, bro. Like, you got to all be on the same page. And I was proud that those boys like all stood up and were on the same page. But my fear is, because you even heard like rumors about like kind of not everybody maybe being on the same page behind closed doors. Do you know what I mean? And like so when you're talking about moving forward and having the threat of like solidarity and strike, I got to be honest. I'm a little concerned that with more time and a talk of longer strikes, you're going to have people start to fracture a little bit. Well, I mean, to be honest, the even start of this strike,

the whole player shooting wasn't on the same page. People didn't even know. That was a point of contention reportedly in those meetings that, dude, why y'all didn't tell us that you was going to go out like this? Why didn't you guys tell us, Georgia, why did you tell us why you guys were going to do this?

And even a point of contention was Pat Bev, Patrick Beverly, saying to Michelle Roberts, when they have a disagreement, no, I pay your salary, which was, in my opinion, kind of whack.

because that's, that's one that's a black woman who has been on the front lines helping you. Right. And, you know, I don't think that that's the way to go about it, especially if you have a, it just seemed like there was a lot of divide there. And even LeBron with, there's reporting with Stephen A, and I've heard this too, and that there's a divide between young and old. And we've, you know, that's not even just a union thing. That's just a generational thing, right?

where you see older folks and younger folks just kind of go out of it and not see, and not see eye to eye on a lot of different things and where you see this, you know, the younger guys who don't make as much money and the older guys are making Buku amounts, their visions don't always align. So it's a lot of stuff that, you know, to be looking out going forward. Yeah, I think, you know, that's the LeBron thing with the older player versus a younger player in the league. You know, when you come into the NBA, when I came into the NBA, there was a hierarchy, man, like that you were put in your place as a rook, you know?

Like, I came into the league and I had to be a rook three different times. Like I was a rook for the Atlanta Hawks when I tried to make their team with DeKembe Matumbo and, you know, J.R. Ryder and Jimmy Jackson and Alan Henderson. And then I was a rook again in San Antonio, where I had great vets like David Robertson and Terry Porter and Jaron Jackson, Sr., and Avery Johnson. and then I was a rook when I hate the Philadelphia team, right? So I had a great indoctrination into being a rook. Like, I knew my place.

Like, I knew where it was supposed to be. Now, I'm not saying that's right, but that's the way you were conditioned to feel as a younger player, right? And on the flip side, those vets, they made you feel like that, but then they took care of you, right? They taught you how to be a pro. You know, they probably involved you in some of their family thing because as a young player, we didn't have families at the time. They take you out to dinner, maybe buy you a suit or two, teach you how to be a pro. it's not the same way in the NBA anymore.

Like as I started to get through my career, it was less like vets taking care of rooks, less rooks having to do the rookie duty type of things. And so I would- What do you think that stems from? Do you think that that stem from the younger generation? Yeah. And so I think it's kind of ironic, right?

Because LeBron and that generation of player were so good, so early, weren't treated necessarily as rooks. Making so much money. Making so much bread that you've kind of, like, you started this movement. So these young players now were like, hey man, when you were 19, you were swinging a big stick in the NBA.

Like, I'm not bowing down. Like, I have my own opinion here. And again, I'm not really judging which one is better than the other. I'm simply saying it's kind of, it's interesting that LeBron and his era ushered that in. And now they may not even be on the same page as the younger group and feeling like the younger group should just kind of, bowed out.

Yeah, bowed out, right? like that's just not the way these cats are wired these days. You even saw it in the relationship kind of between LeBron and Kyrie. Like, Kyrie was like, look, dog, like, I know you're LeBron, but like, I got my own mind. Like, how was that, how was that managing that from an executive perspective of where, you know, your close to Kyrie, how are you going to, how do you mediate that to make sure you guys are good enough to win? The year that they won, I had left.

So I was only there the first year. And I think because everyone's interest, were aligned, it went in that championship. Like for Kyrie, it was, you know, validation of being a top three point guard in the NBA, right? Like, his teams hadn't won. Like, so he was a great individual talent, but, you know, hadn't produced. For LeBron, obviously, Legacy, I got to win Cleveland a championship, right?

This is where I'm from, Akron, Ohio. And then even Kevin Love, who, you know, people forget about Kev in this equation. Kev was a fantastic player in Minnesota, like, statistically speaking. like didn't win much didn't win much but statistically speaking like he was the voice of a team like he was the alpha on that team and so all three of them came together and I think it was like we're aligned like we're not going to be as concerned right now with like personal space and growing as an individual we just want to win now I had a lot to prove at that point right they did but after you won I think you saw people saying okay well we did that and now like I'm not part of like the lebron brand I am

Kyrie. You know what I mean? Or I am Kevin Love. And it doesn't always work when you got that many people in the room that are alphas. Do you think that's when Kairi kind of got that when after he won a title? Like after, then he's like, no, I don't know. That's Kyrie. Okay. Yeah, Kyrie is, Kyrie is, Kari is, man. He is a- When did you know Kyrie was different, though? When did you know that he had a different mindset than all the younger guys? So I spent some time with Kyrie, like, he was injured that year. Like, you know, and when he hurt his knee and I'd have to fly down to see Dr. Andrews with him and Drederick, like, you know, those were conversations and time spent with him individually where I got

a glimpse into kind of who he was. I'd sit on the plane with him sometimes and just kind of talk because his dad played at Boston University right before I did. So we had a common thread. I could kind of, you know, talk to him. And you could tell he was a really interesting, really, like, thoughtful, this is bigger than basketball type of mind, you know? Like, I'm not, a flat earth or like i don't agree with everything kairi says like his leadership style at times i've criticized but like he's he's he's not a a shallow dude like he's there's there's there you know do you think that uh that he can win going forward because you know there's there's you know even when we talk about there's the argument that boston got better when he left right there's this argument

um you know that when he was injured that brooklyn was better right is that fair and do you think think that he can, whatever, you know, criticisms you have, that he can rectify that. It's fair and that the stats bear that out. Like, you can't really argue with, with the numbers. I mean, they are when they are. So you have, you know, that is what it is. Kyrie is like any other player in the NBA, LeBron included. Like, you learn how to be a leader. Like, that doesn't happen just because you say, hey, this is my team and I'm the best player on it. You learn through trial and error. You learn through successes and failures.

And I think Kyrie can lead a team to a championship. Kyrie has to be open and honest enough with himself to take the so-called failures maybe in some of those places and learn from them and change the style. And I also think pairing Kyrie with the right co-star is really important. And pairing him with the right coach is even more important. Like you have to have the right situation for him to feel secure. to feel like he's heard, to feel like he can be hit. All right, let's get you talked about LeBron.

Let's get back to the playoff series. The Lakers, we'll get to this later, but they just, we got to pour out a little liquor later. They beat the Blazers. With Dame going back to Portland, this was kind of inevitable, right? You know, we thought there was going to be a sweep, five game at best, and it was five games.

But let's get in some Blazer talk. Mello says that he wants to stay in Rip City. He wants to stay there long term. Mello is always kind of weird, especially in this iteration of his career, where he's a Hall of Famer, but he's one of those guys that's like that's overqualified for the role that he has,

but underqualified for the role that he wants. He's in that gray area right now. Well put. And I know the Blazers are trying to build something. Do you think you keep, do you keep Mello long term? That long term. I don't know. See, like, I don't know.

Yes. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. Just because of the simple fact that just for all the reasons that I just laid out, I just feel like he's not a franchise dude, but he ain't no scrub either. And I think that that works against him. Okay.

I've done this before and I caught a little flag for it because people said I was comparing myself to Carmelo. I'm not comparing myself to Carmelo. I want to be clear. I'm drawing like a parallel between like I was a player who towards the end of my career, people didn't necessarily want to take a swing at me because they weren't sure that I was going to accept the role that they had for me because I was too competitive

and I had gone to Utah and kept winning the starting job even though clearly other guys should have started. So I kind of have some experience with that, right? Where people are like, I don't know if he's going to be cool with what we need him to do, you know? I think Mello has done a really good job. That was the narrative a year ago. I think Mello has accepted to some degree that it isn't what it used to be.

Now, the Blazers situation this year, because of all the injuries and all of the open shots available, I think may have given him maybe just a little bit more life in the belief that he could still carry. So to answer your question in a long roundabout way, I would keep Mellow. I think Mellow is a great piece. At least for in the short term, right? The short term and make obviously financially like a prudent, you know, contract for the team. But it can't be in the role that he was playing this year. Like that role is too big of a role for Mello at this point in his career.

Like you're, you know, it can be a bucket getter, but it can't be a primary bucket getter. Like maybe six man coming off the bench, get me 12 quick ones. And if you're cooking, we'll give you some more. But it sounds like what he's always, we've, teams have always asked from him. And he was like, no. Right. But so he came in this year and he said, I'm going to do it. And but then it just morphed into like, all right, we got all these shots available, dog.

Get back to doing what you do. So I'm worried about him now. Yeah. You know, we'll see what happens. Do you think Portland is, this is a team that went to the Western Conference Finals last year. Are they a contender? They got NERCES coming back. Huh?

Nah. Okay. All right. Let me. Okay. It's a good question. And I want to be fair to Portland. I don't know. You got a reaction like it ain't a good question.

My gut says no. My gut says they're not. My gut says... Like a five-six seed, maybe? Yeah. That's where I think they are. I think they live in that space because they're so talented with Yusuf Nurkich and Dame and CJ. And just there's a lot of talent, like even Hassan, Whiteside and Collins, there's talent. There's just something missing for me. That's always what it seems like with the Blazers, right? like a very dangerous team, but like not that dangerous to where you can count on them to win.

Right, right. I mean, even even last year, they were up double digits in every game in the conference finals against the Warriors and not, never bat or not. The Warriors never even like, they swept them still. So what's missing? Like I'm interested to hear your take because I, it always. This is a conversation that keeps coming up multiple times and that's breaking up the, breaking up CJ and Dame and you're not going to trade Dame. So you trade, do you trade CJ to get some pieces? That's the big thing.

And I like CJ's game, man. And also he played like a G this playoffs playing with a broken back. I don't know, man. I don't know. Do you trade him to, you know, addition by subtraction? Like, I don't know what to do with that. Okay. So I don't think it's addition by subtraction.

Because you would, like, CJ McCullum is a damn good basketball player, Don. Like, I have my boys come watch. him because I think he represents more of a of an attainable thing for for for not super freaky athletic six eight dudes right like look at what he does he's six three I mean he can dunk but he ain't really putting his elbows on the rim and like he is out there when you see him you see hard work you see hard work and preservation bro like you see like a dude who is just overcome all odds so I can really dig that and so makes what I'm about to say even harder um I don't know that you win with that backward. I think if you're Portland and you want to be sentimental and you don't

care about necessarily winning a championship, keep them together, keep riding into the playoffs. Maybe you knock somebody off. Maybe you don't. Or maybe you have like a Malone John Stockton down the line. Maybe like one or two finals appearances or something. Maybe like way deep down in the line. No. But I think like they were the cream of the crop in the Western Conference for years. They just couldn't beat the Bulls. Right. Like I don't think you even get to that with with Dame and CJ as two smaller guards, neither one of them really defensive-minded or good defensively. And so I like the team, and they're fun to watch. I tune in every night they play.

They can win a lot of games. And again, I think they can make some noise in playoffs if everyone's healthy and everything is legit. I don't think that that team contends for championships. And so if you're asking me, if I could get back a real couple pieces for CJ, I would probably if I were the trailblazers, bite the bullet and make the deal. And I'm, and, but I could make a case for being sentimental and saying, hey, we're good with just being really exciting and being the fifth seat.

Yeah. This is the moves that you see down the line. I mean, they hurt in a moment, but you see why it happens, right? And I don't know a deal that, I don't know a deal that you can get for CJ. I don't know what the market is. Probably good. He's a really good player. But we'll see what happens.

Let's, let's pivot to the, to the Clippers Maverick series. Clippers won that series in six games. Game six, Kauai, bucket, down the stretch. He scored 33 points, had 14 rebounds. But the thing that really kind of pegged my interest was how Kauai was getting his shots down the stretch. They were all mid-range. It looked like I was watching the game from 2009. Every time down, he's backing dudes down.

He's just inside the three-point line. It was kind of, I ain't know why. I was kind of refreshing to see that in a league that's, all about spacing. That's all about, um, three point shots for a guy to just, ah, I'm going to get you right here. Ah, I'm going to get you at the wing. That was fun for me to seek Roger. Yeah, I loved it too, bro. I am, you know, analytics have a place in basketball. I'm not saying that they don't, but it can't be all about analytics, right? Like, it has to be a combination of like analytics and eyeball and and and what's like time and place for the analytics and so coming down the stretch of

games bro pace is really important right so like we can't fly down the court all the time and shoot threes what if they're not going in like it's opening the door for other people to come back at us right and so when you're getting the ball in that mid post area working a little bit to get at the ball there and then really letting him work you're controlling tempo like you're controlling the pace of the game and then like i'm a believer in getting buckets Logan Like, I don't give a damn where they come from. Like, but if you can work in that midpost and you are as effective as he is, I am not trying to take that away from you, bro.

Let's go get it. I'm the same way with CJ. CJ's a great mid-range bucket getter. Like, I'm not going to ask you to stop doing that, dog, because you've carried us home like multiple times with the mid-range game. And so I think it's coming back. Like, I know I'm probably not. I'm in the minority.

I don't know what comes back tomorrow. But I do think that the art of that mid-range is going to come back at some point. I mean, this is coming back to balance, Man, life's all about balance. You know, you can get those three-point shots. They're available, but also, you know, I think there's a, the Warriors are probably the face of the pace and space movement, probably, right? Or a motion offense where you got, or three-pointers are prioritized.

But people forget, they didn't beat the rockets on three-point shots. They beat them because they had one, probably the best mid-range player in the league and Kevin Durant who can get a bucket for you whenever, right? So I think that there's balancing that. I think that the Warriors were a great example of that, where, yeah, you are a three-point shooting team, probably the best that's ever happened. But you do still need every once in a while

to go get a mid-range shot if you need a bucket. If you need a bucket. Look, I would be interested on your take. This is off-topic. It's on topic, but it's got nothing to do with the NBA. I have two boys that are basketball age. One is 13, one's 11, turn to 12. I'm teaching them like off, you know, the nuances of offense, right?

And we spend a lot of time working mid-range. Like so my 13-year-old has like kind of like a pro-style game where he works like Kauai does off the post kind of like hit fadeaways like really, really like above his pay grade. But it doesn't really translate in today's game. And I'm teaching him to play that way because I believe it's the right way to play. Like if you were teaching a kid to hoop right now, would you even spend any time doing that? Or would you just teach him like? I would just teach them to have a well-rounded game,

like teach them three-pointers. Why can't you teach them everything? Well, I mean, ultimately that's what I'm doing, but I deal with a lot of, you know, I'm in the youth basketball scene because of them. And a lot of these teams have like six-grade teams that play like the Houston Rockets, where they're just coming down,

they're firing threes from all over the court. And like my program, I won't let them play like that until they're proficient in a three-point shooter. So we work coming off, you know, down screens, real nuts and bulge like 1999 basketball, right? I think, yeah.

I think that you, what you do is I think that you go from the hoop out, right? You teach them how to shoot a layup. They do teach them how to shoot a jumper. Then you teach it like so they'll have a well-rounded game because what if they take the three-point shot away from you? Cool, bro. You need to come work with the kids. Or at least make me a little side video so I could sell to some of my parents.

All right. I'm sure, because I'm trashy a hoop. I don't know if I can, you know, help them out. But anyway, so another thing with Kauai, the load management conversation, right? And it keeps coming up. He's playing some of his best basketball now. He played 57 regular season games. We talk about, I know Kobe Bryant in the last dance,

talk about how he was in a older league than it is right now. But I'm going to give you some names. James Hardin, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kauai Leonard, all over 30. All these guys are superstars that are over 30. Do you, this be common practice to make sure you get load management and make sure that your guys are an optimal shape going into the postseason.

Absolutely. First of all, Kauai is over 30. I should have known that, but it doesn't feel like he's over 30. Yeah, I think it is for a franchise that's ultimate goal is to win the championship. And if you believe your team as constituted has a real legitimate shot, not one of those on the first day of practice, like we're winning a championship, but nobody believes it. then yeah, dog, you need to rest them. You need to make sure that your highest paid players, your best players,

your best assets are protected and at their best coming down the stretch and when you need them the most. And so I've always maintained that the amount of games NBA players play is too much for them to be really looking good into playoffs. You just don't see it because everybody's played the same amount of games. So, you know, if you can rest these guys and have them look better, I think it's the wise move to make. Yeah, I think so.

I've been grappling with that because, you know, it's also money involved, right? You're not going to, you don't want to reduce the season, as you can see right now, from 82 to like 65 or something like that, right? So I don't know what you do. I do think that this is, Kauai is a prime example of, like, what load management does. It's something that you kind of have to do. So let's see what these guys over 30. Do you want to get to somebody that you was out here caping for, Raj.

and he let you down. What? Marcus Morris. He was ejected for swiping at Luca Donchich. He was already, he already stepped on. He said he didn't do it on purpose, stepped on Lucas' foot, his injured foot or injured ankle earlier in the series. You got some explaining to do, Roger Bell.

Yeah. Okay. In retrospect, let me say that I was probably wrong about the intentional ankle stepping. It was probably, I'm big enough man to say that. I'm being honest at the time, though, I thought no one would intentionally step on his ankle, like, right in front of everyone. But following what happened yesterday, probably, let me ask you, man, because I clearly

I have my history with, like, flagrant fouls. A little bit. Yeah, I mean, not to open old wounds, bro, but clearly, where are you on the, today's flagrant foul? Just did it does it warrant Does that warrant a suspension? I don't know because you have to do it And you have to take into account intent

Honestly in this the last one where he swiped at Luca When I was growing up When you were playing I was a playoff foul That was what they called a playoff foul right You know they that happens They do like the fake beef stuff Where they fake fight they ain't nobody going to fight But they do that

And then you go play two free throws You probably get a double technical Or something like that I think it was a reputation ejection for Marcus Morris. I don't know though, man. I think he needs to read the room. Could he, I mean, could he cost them a title doing this? I think he needs to read the room that like,

yo, you are a valuable player, bro. Like, you are a valuable player for this team. I know you're the tough guy, but you are also not on the role. I don't think of where you could just, you know, like the Kendrick Perkins front of the show role where you're just giving elbows. You know what I'm saying? You're just giving balls and that's literally why you're in the

in the game. He's not that. He's too good of a player to be that. I have experience with this. Mark Ivaroni used to coach us with the Sons. And I've always referenced Mike Dantoni knowing who I was and how I had to play to be successful

and allowing me like the space to do that. So he knew that my emotions ran hot and that I played like right on the edge every night and there were going to be some texts and some dumb shit that I did that he was going to have to live. live with. So he kind of let me ride. Mark Ivaroni, like, used to try to talk to me all a time, even going to the point of like slipping a note under my door in a Chicago hotel

that read like, I'm concerned that you're going to cost us like when we can't afford for you to cost us. Like real shit. I took real exception to it and wrote him a fucking note back, telling him like in not so uncertain terms that I had this under control. But I didn't because, like, in that series against the Lakers, like that series was game on. Like, we had just clawed our way back into it at 2-3. And another word, you could have fucked that up. I really could have fucked that up. Like, that was just really stupid and really put my team in a jacked-up spot.

But it worked out. So to your question, dog, yeah, he got to get that in check. I hope it was just a Luca thing, though. Like, you know, for me, it was just a Kobe thing. It wasn't like, I didn't have that beef with, like, Dirk Nowitzky or Josh Howard in the next round. I just had it with Kobe. Yeah. Again, the dude is too good to be that.

Yeah, you can't do that. You know what I mean? He's too good to, he's not the guy that could just give out five or six fouls, right? That you're just throwing bows and we know what time it is when he goes in the game, right? He ain't been in a game in like three months. He's coming out, Chau. Right. Yeah.

Exactly. So he could cost his team of title for doing something like that. But hopefully that's not the case. on their end. All right, let's take a quick break in this time to pour out a little liquor. And we're back. And it's time to pour out a little liquor for the Dallas Mavericks. We got our friend, Jason Gallagher, Maverick's friend, half of ice to ice with Isaac Lee.

He has a banger song. Can you tell us about your song, please? Yeah, absolutely. First off, thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me do this for a second. The song is called Halliluca. It was written just a few years. or a few games into his

rookie season. I was an early adopter and early believer. And yeah, it was just an ode to a young star, a welcome star into Dallas, something we desperately needed after counting on Chandler Parsons and people of that nature.

Okay, all right, shots. Okay, all right, all right. He almost came through in free agency once. There you go. And, yeah, so that's the song. And you can find it on YouTube. We got you 30 seconds. We want you to just say everything you feel about the Mavericks losing and how you feel going forward. I'll give you 45 seconds. We need rant right now. We need it.

Okay. Okay. Here we go. Here we go. I feel great. I'm in that sweet zone where we were playing with House Money the entire time. KP. Out. Luca, still young, still not getting the proper respect we feel as Dallas fans from referees, still not surrounded by the pieces you would think that a superstar of his caliber would need around him. So it's all hopeful. I mean, the Clippers are an incredible defense and he didn't really bat an eye. He didn't bat an eye against some of these sort of, you know, the sort of bullying tough playoff basketball that he's going to encounter several times in his career. And as a Dallas fan, you can't feel any better than that. I mean, when you're second and third guys or Tim Hardaway Jr.,

Trey Burke, people like that, and you do as well as you do against a Clippers team of that caliber, it's all gravy. Now, next year is going to suck because the expectations are like, where are we going, big guy? You know what I mean? So it was nice. It was nice after the little playoff drought to get a little fun, just carefree, just nothing to lose basketball. So it was great. I like Logan, look, I think the attitude is the way I would be feeling if I was a mass fan. Like I think there's some bright stuff on the horizon. You were playing with House money. I think here's my only question though.

And what do you do with the roster around Luca? Because you just talked about him, maybe not having what you would expect a star like him to have. Like, what do you think they? Yeah, I think you have to sort of surround him with shooters. and then I think your big guys personally just have to be more sort of enforcer types. I mean, it's crazy to say this, but he kind of needs a Marcus Morris type next to him.

I've been a big believer in, like, I love the memes. I love the social media department, and they put out all these fun little Dallas Mavericks and best friend things, but I'm ready for someone to like smack KP in the head when he doesn't box out. Like we need somebody.

Boban just can give him a hug. Like we need somebody. out there who's just like get your shit together. I mean, that 2011 Mavs team had a couple of those guys. Sean Stevenson, you know, even Brian Cardinal to an extent would come in and just beat the shit out somebody in the leave.

We need a guy like that. So that's to me what we need. And then we need shooters around Luca. Luke is the best at kicking the ball out. One of the things I was most impressed with last night was even as his team wasn't shooting well and he was. And as the ship was going down, he was still making the right plays. Even though his guys

were just not hitting. They were shooting horribly from three. Tim Hardaway Jr. was, I think, like, two for 11. So once you start to sort of surround him with the shooters that are just knocked down, you know, don't need a dribble, nothing, spot up shooters, I think it's a different outcome.

Well, that was pour out a little liquor with Jason Gallagher. I really appreciate you coming on. Gee, hopefully it's not too many, there we go. Hopefully it's not too many more times like this. You know what I mean? Next time you come on, Maybe it's not so negative, but I think you, thanks for coming on, bro.

I felt like it was a positive negativity. Okay, cool, man. I'm sorry we got some stuff off, bro. Okay. All right, for sure. Well, that was Jason Gallagher of the ringer, man. Thank you for coming on. Thanks, guys.

Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. All right, man. So that was Jason Gallagher, with his, you know, pouring out his little liquor for the Dallas Mavericks,

I have to pour out a little liquor for the Portland Trailblazers. Not just the Portland Trailblazers. More specifically, Dame Lillard, an Oakland legend, a town legend, town representative, put his heart out. He bawled out. I don't know if they're going to win a championship. I don't think they are. But he showed the spirit of a town representative.

he showed the umph and the vibes and the just i don't care attitude it was like he was playing it was like oakland high was playing against peed my high you know what i mean there was a lot of just anger around that and he showed up and he bawled out so for dame lillard i thank you and i'm pour a little liquor for y'all man no doubt moment of silence for dame in the moving this guy. All right, man. We're going to start with you, man. Let's get to it.

Real one of the week. Man, this was a tough week, bro. It was a very tough week. The real one of the week is someone who would exemplifies the attitude of Raja and me. And is correct. Just just has some dog in them. Or her. Or them.

Or they, yes. Or any pronoun. We. I mean, we, right? All of us. Go ahead, Roger. wanted to so badly do a off-the-court real one this week. But what happened last night would not allow me to do that.

There's only one real one of the week for me. I think it's obviously Jamal Murray. Yes. What he's doing in the playoffs, we talked about like, you know, the second player in the last 20 seasons with the points scored and whatnot. We could do the stats all day. but being down three to one in and of itself, super daunting of a task. And he's almost single-handedly, like, pulling them up out of that and trying to win the series.

And so for me, there is no other real one of the week than Jamal Murray. I got that. Shout out a real one in Jamal Murray. He's rightfully, he deserves all that. I have a different one. I'm going to a different league. One is the WMBA. Both.

I'm going with Kennedy Carter from the Atlanta Dream out here bawling. She almost beat my spark single-handedly last night. She had 26, if I'm not mistaken, she's going to be the rookie of the year, in my opinion. Kennedy, Hollywood, Carter. Okay. The Atlanta Dreamer ball and just is WMBA in general, man. It's been really fun to watch them play. They've also been real ones.

They, without questions, acts, just in solidarity, says. said, we're going to shut down our league too. Yep. Right after the NBA did. So Kennedy Carter, my favorite player in the WNBA right now, real one of the week. Shout out the WNBA. Real one. We also had some tough blows in the basketball world, man.

And just in the world in general. But we lost Cliff Robinson, Arizona coach, former Arizona coach, Lude Olson, lost Chadwick Bozeman. And this morning lost legendary coach. coach of Georgetown, John Thompson. It's just a tough week for the basketball world. And I do want to just say a quick spill about both Chadwick and John Thompson, man, two black men who were just really inspirational, man.

You talk about John Thompson, who was a black coach of the Georgetown Hoyas in the 1980s. And I'm sure you can imagine just how tough. that is to do that because as black men and women know, when we take on a job, it's not just that we have to do that job. We have to do it exemplary. And we have to do it with a lot of shit coming at us that, you know, other races don't deal with, you know, there was, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of, you know, he got a lot of stuff thrown at him, you know, inwards and things like that.

He still was the first coast to win a national, first black coast to win a national title, right? And Chadwick Bozeman, probably, you know, one of the defining actors of this generation, who played the role of Jackie Roberts and played the role of Black Panther, gave a lot of inspiration. He was our, the first black superhero that we saw on the screen, did all of this while battling cancer. Real one. So a lot of tough blows, man.

I don't really know what's more to say about that, but a lot of real ones lost this week. Yeah, no doubt. You said it, you said all that needed to be said. Georgetown was the school that when I was coming up as a Hooper, like it was my dream school, right? It was, it was like. We thought it was an HBCU.

You thought, yeah, it was just where I wanted to play. It was where you, you know, it represented things that you wanted to be affiliated with. represented, you know, greatness. And so, you know, I, I, that, John Thompson holds a, holds a, a dear spot, like, in my heart. Chadwick, you know, I got young boys. Like, I referenced them, like, three times a day, but, like, Black Panther, that's, that's, that's, we didn't have that, right?

Like, and they had, my sons all have, like, when they were younger, Black Panther costumes. They were Black Panther for Halloween. Like, we, like, you know, it's like, Wakanda forever, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, Blow, bro. Tough blow. And yeah, man, just rest and peace to all those men. And yeah, I don't know what's much more to say that, but thank you for listening. And this has been the Monday edition of the Ringer NBA show.