The Ringer NBA Show - Most Intriguing Free Agents, Gainfully Employed Players, and Draft Picks | The Mismatch

Episode Date: October 27, 2020

Verno and KOC get together to chat about developments in the ongoing negotiation over when the next NBA season will start (1:20). Then they get into the free agents, currently employed players, and draft picks that intrigue them the most this offseason (14:45). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Kevin O'Connor on today's episode of The Mismatch with me and Chris Vernon. We talked about the potential December start date for the next NBA season, as well as our draft picks we're watching for, our free agents we're watching for, and current players who could maybe be on the move. All that coming up next. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Join him as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Coneman, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Candiland, Kevin O'Cand. Kevin O'Camra. Kevin!

Why are you looking at me like that, Chris? Ladies and gentlemen, for those that are listening to the audio version of the Ringer NBA show, Kevin Oblizarian is clean-shaven. He was very tired of all of the comments directed at my youth, and he said, I am tired of being the one that is not considered the youngest on the mismatch. therefore I am going to prove that I'm the youngest on the mismatch. I am going to shave my beard. And now we have a Kevin O'Connor that we have not seen in, gosh, I don't know.

Since at least, I shaved once in June, but I grew up back quickly in July. So not since last December. Unbelievable. How do you feel? Do you feel like a new man? I feel great. I think it's fun to shave and to grow it back. and that process is very rewarding.

So it feels, it feels weird looking in the mirror and it's like looking at a past version of yourself. I feel like I'm looking at like, I don't feel like I'm looking at December 2019 me. I feel like I'm looking at like 2015 me. I went from looking like I'm 40 to looking like I'm 25. Let's go.

I feel fresh. So let's go. Let's do it, Chris. Hey, pray for the ladies. Pray for the ladies, everybody. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, like, you can't please everybody. Some people like the beard.

Some people hate the beard. He is going to do what feels right to you. Well, it makes you happiest as your own person. All right. This week, we are going to, we are going to examine three different players, one current player, one free agent and one draft pick that intrigue each of us as we head into this NBA off season. Before we get to that, a quick note on all of this news that is coming out on a possible return to play for the

2021 season. There's been a lot of reporting over the course of the last couple of days from Adrian Wojianowski, Shams, Mark Stein, etc. About the idea that training camp could start on December 1st and

return to play could be December 22nd. If anybody heard Danny Green yesterday on with Rajan Logan on the NBA show, he scoffed at this and I won't be there. will be there. And so what's weird is, you know, it's kind of like everybody says this. This is what the NBA wants to do. But obviously they've got to get the union to agree. There's been very, very, very, very, very little reporting from the player side.

And so you do wonder, is this just a, is this reality or is this a complete negotiation taking place in public, right? I mean, I mean, everything's a negotiation. But it is real. I mean, it is real. I mean, for weeks, for weeks, it was, oh, February or March. And then suddenly it turned into January and then it turned into December. And the number one reason why for like, let's just, you know, that Danny Green comment is true. Like the Lakers and Heat players, that's a quick turnaround. And even for the Nuggets and Celtics as well. However, every other team, they've been off for a long time.

Half the league hasn't played since March. That's right. I mean, it's just most teams are ready to get back going. That's why we were talking about fall league. So I would imagine a lot of teams would like to get back in December. And maybe that with the negotiation aspect with, you know, a portion of the league wanting to wait longer, maybe you'll end up seeing January around Martin Luther King Day weekend as the new start date. But I do know the league is spooked after the low ratings for a number of lot of reasons.

and moving the calendar to like December timeline, would at least give them the flexibility to stay with December next season or maybe move back to October if that's what they feel is best. But a lot of people in the league would like to have a permanent December start. So why not push for that now? I was told earlier this week that this is 100% about the broadcast rights. Yes. And not fans in the seats, correct?

It's not. It has nothing. to do with it. That is so up in the air. They have no idea what's going to happen with that. So this is, and I think when you saw there was an article that came out last week about this and about a return to play and a meeting with the board of governors. And it also mentioned in there that ESPN was calling teams. Okay, that's all you need to know, right, as to who's got the power here. And so now when you go and you have these meetings, it's going to, is this a ploy? to say, here's when we want to start.

The players will say no. They'll say, okay, well, we can start blank, you know, maybe Martin Luther King there, whatever, but you've got to give up this, this, this, and this. Right? And so it's like we're giving in on, this is what, if you come out and say, this is when we want to start. And then they say, that's too soon. We don't want to turn around and start right then.

Then they say, okay, we want to. we won't start then, but here's the concessions you have to make. Because we are conceding we won't start when we want to start, right? And so therefore, that's why I say negotiation in public. The other could be that this is what they have to have happened in order to do right by the broadcast partners. And if that's the truth that they have to do right by the broadcast partners and that's the only way that the broadcast partners are going to be cool with it, If the broadcast partners come at ESPN and the other say, we're not giving up Christmas.

Like you could try to make you Martin Luther King Day all you want is a tent pole day. But we want Christmas. And we want to be able to get in. No canceling Christmas. And we want a full season. Like that's what we paid for. We just made this last thing work. We just made this last thing work.

So you got to make this work. So y'all figure it out. I mean, that's a possibility too. The truth is, players can say they're not going to show up. They don't want to do this. They don't want to do that. If it's going to cost them a fortune, they're going to show up. Then they're going to do whatever they have to do.

This whole season is going to be a mess anyway because they're losing a massive amount of revenue no matter what. Like, if they sit down at the table and they say, look, guys, we ain't going to be able to have fans in the stance. That's 40% is gait. We're artificially inflating the cap this year. We're trying to get back on track for next year. the only way we're going to make the money that we need to make to even get you guys what you want this year is by making these broadcast partners happy and this is what they want. And if that's the case, the broadcast partners, it doesn't matter when the NBA wants to start

or when the players want to start. It matters when the broadcast partners are cool with you starting and ending and how many games you're going to be able to give them. And we'll see. We'll see. And we will see. I mean, I'm sure we'll get word in the, coming weeks. Adam Silver did say they'd give two months notice ahead of the plan, you know,

for when they would actually restart things. I mean, it is a quick turnaround, though. I mean, you're talking about having to figure out the salary. It's two months today, by the way. I know. It's less than two months as of today. Today's October 27th, less than two months. So we're at that point now where a plan's going to be figured out soon, but it really is remarkable that we could see the draft of November 18th free agency a day or a couple days later. And, Then 10 days later, training camp around December 1st for December 25th-ish start. That's crazy, man. I mean, we could see, let's say the season starts in December.

Olympics next summer ends in mid-late August. And then the following season, maybe October, maybe December. There's not going to be either way, there's not going to be a lot of time off until summer offseason 2022. Right. We're got a lot of nonstop basketball for professional athletes between now and then. Well, and what happens when, I mean, we'll have to see what happens with the Players Union, the Players Association, et cetera, because, you know, not unlike America, the middle and lower class are not going to be nearly as represented as the upper class.

And there are guys that are made men in the NBA, including your best players in the league. And if they say, we don't, we're not ready. We don't want to return on December 2nd. 22nd, how much of a decision is being made for, you know, now is that golf has widened. You have a lot of guys making a boatload of money and a lot of guys not making a boatload of money. And there's not that many in the middle, not as many as there used to be in the middle. And so those that say, hey, we'll take a little bit of a financial loss to be able to start in January. Are they speaking for, you know, this 400 people?

in the league. Because once upon a time, LeBron James and the Clippers walked into a meeting and said, we're ready to go home. From the bubble. Like, we almost didn't have a title, you know, that it was taking place.

And so, who knows? Who knows who is represented when it comes to that? And when you have a lot of guys that have made a lot of money, you know, it's different, you know. How many of the 400 are willing to take a financial

loss bigger than what it would already be, which is going to be significant in order to start a little bit later. And there's another aspect here we're not, we haven't touched on yet that, you know, originally one of the ideas with starting in, say, March was that by waiting more, you give more time for there to be potentially be vaccine or further improvements with treatments or testing that would allow more fans to get into arenas. And I think there is an element of the league would rather bet on. the known, which is having a December start with Christmas would be good for the long-term health financially of the league,

versus the unknown, which is how many markets would actually be able to allow fans? What are the treatments, vaccine? Like, you just don't know that. So the NBA, understandably, might be pivoting from a business standpoint and the broadcast partners from a business standpoint in terms of just pushing. Plus, we've seen the NFL, MLB, you know, you know, other leagues be able to sort of power through and effectively make this work. And maybe with MLB, maybe that's the formula here. MLB has used a bubble during the playoffs.

Maybe the NBA could, you know, travel during the season, then figure out a playoff bubble down the line or maybe by that point you're able to have fans, who really knows? Like, you can always allow fans if at some point it's okay to do so. Reading the tea leaves, that timeline seems extreme, though. I mean, because you're talking about a November 18th draft, then free agency, then being in training camps by December 1st, free agency doesn't last a week. Like, that's not the way it works. Guys stay free agents for like months.

I'll tell you what, it's doable though. It's doable. We saw this with a lockout year. Everything happened quick. It can happen quick if it needs to have to construct your entire, you would have to be done with free agency. If you want those guys in training camp, you would have about a week.

Let's be honest, though. Free agency has already started. Well, let's just be honest here. With between agents and teams, conversations have already begun happening. Let's just be honest. That's illegal, Kevin. That's against the rules. It's also illegal to jaywalk in certain states and certain cities, when people do it anyway. I don't. Free agency has already started. Let's,

let's be honest here. All right. Right after these words, we are going to get into our three intriguing players, a current player, a free agent, and a draft pick. All right, Kevin, let's get into it. All right, We'll start with the free agent. So these are players that are intriguing to us as we head into this off season. And we have picked one from each category, free agent, current player traffic. I'll start with the free agent. And the free agent that I chose is Danilo Gallinari.

Hey, I like it. Okay. So in this year that is light on free agents, and you do have guys that have different player options and whatever else, and there's some restricted, some unrestricted. Danil Garnar is just out on the market. And his current team, I think there is a, I don't know, 99% chance. They don't resign him to his next contract.

He's 32 years old. He is one of four players, I believe, that shot over 40% from three the last two years on over 300 attempts. Other guys in that list include like Davis Bertons, Joe Harris. but the list is very short. Also, and this is mega intriguing, he was a major factor in the clippers having their surprising run two years ago, then was a major factor in Oklahoma City

making their surprising run. So this is, though he is not a massive name, this guy is a real needle mover in terms of making teams better. And in fact, last year, the Thunder scored almost 17 more points per possession per 100 possessions when he was on the floor. They scored 117 points versus 100 points roughly,

when he was on the court last year. That is the biggest differential for offensive rating amongst any of the 236 players that played 1,000 minutes for one team. So if we're just talking about a guy that actually really impacts winning and losing, I mean, they were an extremely good team with him on the floor. They were not without him. And when we're talking about, obviously, Chris Paul gets a ton of credit for being the leader of that team and whatever else.

But the sneaky thing is, Gallinari was essential. I remember Doc Rivers saying he was our most important player two years ago with the Clippers. and then last year, and he stayed healthy for the most part, the last couple of years. Hasnambed hurt since 2017-18. Clippers two years ago, and he's 32. He's right in the middle of his prime. He's perfect for the way the NBA is playing right now. I think he's playing great basketball still.

And he's obviously shooting the shit out of the ball. Come on. Gallinari, when I used to write for Celtics blog years ago, he was a guy that I wrote, I think two articles about like the Celtics should go target Gallinari. underrated player, you know, at six, six, nine, six, ten, can create off the dribble for you, can play off ball, can cut. He can do so much offensively. He brings so many versatile qualities. And, you know, now at 32 years old, you know, injuries still do remain in a concern, even though he's been healthyish two years in a row now. They do loom the injury concern is

there. But fact is, is that for any contending team or any team that hopes to make a push for the playoffs, Gallinari might. be a little bit past his prime, but he's not far off from it with his level of production. And he can help a lot of different teams with his scoring elements and his reliable, you know, veteran defense. So to me, like he stands out as somebody who, even if he doesn't sign with a team, Oklahoma City is in a position with his bird rights to sign and trade him. That could also be an option for Gallin area as well, which is why the Thunder weren't in a rush to trade him to Miami

during the, right before the deadline. Miami was into Gallinari, they had conversations, nothing ended up happening. But OKC knew they could hold on to him and possibly have more options during the free agency period. And that's what we're going to see

over the coming weeks, I'm sure is we're going to hear some rumors about where Gallinari might go. And don't be surprised if one or multiple of those teams are teams that don't have cap space because that would lead to a sign and trade scenario. Gallo is just one of those guys that has not been a consistent all-star.

And so, but he's hitting this free agent market. And I actually do think he could drastically affect what I think a team is capable of, right? He is not in that class of the guys that you would typically think are big needle movers for an acquisition. But if the right team acquires him, I think their ceiling goes up exponentially because he's just, he's perfect for the way the NBA's played right now. If you can knock down 40% of your threes on big attempts, and he can do the other stuff too, and he makes people better. You just saw the impact he's had.

That's two years in a row. He was on a team that was not expected to be nearly as good as they ended up being, and he was a massive part of it. And you know what? With him, it's a type of thing where he's kind of like star insurance too. I like to have, if I'm building a team,

I want to have guys who, if my best player goes down for a little bit of time or an extended period of time, you've got to have guys who can pick up the slack. And Gallinari is the type of guy that if your number one player goes down for a couple weeks, you know, give Gallaudari three or four more shots a game and you can survive. You can get by, even if you only go 500 or whatever, you know, that's better than, you know, going in the toilet for those two weeks. So to me, Gallinari and what is a week free agent class with stars,

there are some guys out there that do make sense for contending teams or teams that want to make a push for a playoffs. All right, who's your free agent? I got a quiz for you, Chris. Okay. One player this season shot over 38% from three and over 70% in the pick and roll. Who's that player? 38% from three. Over 38% from three.

And over 70% by my immediate pick and pop guy was going to be Yokic, but he didn't shoot that high from three. Well, one of your guys came close. Brandon Clark came close. Just an honorable mention there. just under 30% from 3. But the guy who did it. Who shoots off the pick and roll a lot? Kevin Love?

Well, I'll give you the answer. Okay. Christian Wood. Is that right? Oh, I should have guessed a free agent. What am I thinking? Yes. Christian Wood.

I don't know if you would have guessed Christian Wood in that scenario, though. But Christian Wood, to me, we talked about him a little bit in a recent episode. But Wood is maybe the third or fourth best free agent in this class, in my opinion, when you're looking for a guy. Look, when you sign free agents, you're not paying for past production. You're paying for future production. And Christian Wood right now, in his mid-20s, this last season, he really figured things out with Detroit. And with conversations I've had with people around the league is they're like, yeah, it's a small sample.

It's a small sample after Drummond got traded, where he started for Detroit and was awesome, averaging about 20 and 10 for an extended period of time. But to me, the progress was shown last season when he got a little opportunity with the pelicans. He looked really good there. He looked good coming off the bench for the Pistons. And he looked even better as a starter for the Pistons. And you talk about what's important in today's league. Defensive versatility. Christian Wood sometimes might make some mistakes for you, you know, defending the pick and roll.

But he can switch and at least reliably, you know, hold his own against a lot of guards and wings. He can alter shots around the rim with his length. offensively, he can space the floor for you as a potent shooter, or he can roll and finish with finesse with either hand, or he can throw down lob dunks. He has improved his, I mean, his screening,

if you watched him at UNLV, he didn't know how to screen. He just didn't know how to do it at all. And he's become a pretty good screener, which has really, really activated the abilities he's always had as a score in the half court. I think his passing has gotten a bit better.

His decision making, he used to take so many dumb, shots with 25 seconds something, McClock at UNLV, and now he's a guy playing within the flow of the offense. This is a new Christian Wood. He was somebody everybody understood had high potential in his draft year after going

undrafted, and now he has become that player. And to me, he's like a discount Anthony Davis. He's not AD, but he has some of those versatile qualities on both ends of the floor. That to me, if I'm a young team like Atlanta, I'd be after him. I'd be after him if I'm Phoenix. I'd be after

him if I'm the Celtics or the heat. you know, if I'm a contender or if I'm a young team on the rise. To me, Christian Wood is one of the top targets in free agency. Do you think this is risky? This strikes me as risky. And I say this because there are two, there's two red flags. Okay. Number one, put up numbers on a rat team.

Number two, he did it in a contract year, right? These are two scary things to me that I sit there and I say, okay, he became a player that he had not been before. and here's two factors. Somebody has to score and put up numbers. They're getting their ass kicked every night. So it's not like it was, you know, contribution to winning.

This is the Hassan Whiteside fear. Yes. The Mark Blunt fear. Yes. Guys in contract years that were awesome. And then they fell off a cliff. They fall back into bad habits. They get their money and then they're back to what they always were.

Yeah. And that's the fear. Was it? And so that's what I ask you. What is your level of risk on the? Is it a flash on the fan? Or are you a believer? Are you believer that in whoever signs him is going to be thrilled that they signed Christian Wood?

I think you can look at it two ways. This is a guy that got cut from a Chinese basketball association team just a couple of years ago because he wasn't good enough for the team. And that was a wake-up call. And I think the improvements that have happened for his game since then, they seem real to me. and I don't think it was sudden. Like, I don't think what happened in Detroit, like happened overnight.

Like I said, what happened in New Orleans the year prior, again, like a small, like a couple week, you know, stint for him, I thought he looked pretty good with the Pelicans last year. And then this year with Detroit, even better. And to me, I'm seeing an upward trajectory in terms of his individual progress as a player. And that's somebody I feel like would be worth betting on, you know? I do think there's an element of risk here. I would be afraid of him, you know, turning into another white side where he just falls off a cliff. But to me, like, you could look at it the other way.

What if you bring in this guy who's been in losing situations throughout his career and still has gotten better and hasn't given up? And you bring him into a winning culture that emphasizes his defense that has good camaraderie in the locker room. What does he turn into then? I'd be looking at it from that side, too. Two things. I'd much rather sign the guy that was, that has been humbled completely. I think that shows a lot of character to be in this position that he is in, right? More so than the super talented guy that it hasn't clicked and then we make excuses that it hasn't clicked because he's in losing situations.

This guy has had to scratch and claw and fight to even be in the position where you're talking about him on the show. So that at the very least, that shows an immense amount of character. The other thing is he was undeniably awesome. Detroit. It's just a do you buy it, right? Like, do you buy it? Is it because he was, is it because he was in a contract year? So he was more motivated than he's ever been in his life. Is it because he's playing for Detroit and they weren't winning games? And so, of course, somebody's going to be putting up numbers or is that real? And he is just a different guy now. I don't know. I just, I usually, I usually get scared by these guys. I do. Yeah. You know.

just because of those two factors, right? Like, it's not a huge track record. Absolutely. It's a small track record of me being able to trust you, you know? Understandably so. And I think that is a fear that some teams do have with him, for sure. They do fear spending, you know, Bobby Marks has mentioned the mid-level exception,

9.3 million as a potential target range for him. I've heard maybe much more than that for him, you know, maybe 15, 16 million. Okay. That's what I'm saying. It's a big investment. But, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, hold on that. Nine, a hundred percent.

Oh, yeah. And that's what I'm saying. 15 is the risk. Like, nine, nine is, is a, is a easy gamble to me. But, but if you're talking high teens, the more you're spending, the more risk there is. But he might be worth it. And that could end up being an undervalued contract because, like, you're talking like, Clint Capella makes $16, 17 million dollars.

And he's a really good player, but he can't shoot threes. He can't comfortable. switch. Christian Wood brings those qualities. And like we're talking, we talk so much about the importance of bigs. It's, it's,

it's the, the requirements to be a productive big at a high level of change. And Christian Wood brings those qualities. So to me, it's worth gambling on him. I would a million percent spend nine. 12, we'd have to have a long conversation.

15. I'd be terrified. Terrified? I don't know if I'd be terrified. I'd be terrified. Because he's got to be a starter for me if I'm paying a 15. and is he a starter on a good team?

I mean, Chris. That's what I'm saying. I know. Chris, he just turned 25 years old. And like, like I understand that he's not a draft pick here, but the top pick is going to make around $9 or $10 million annually,

the number one pick who has never played in NBA game. Phoenix just took a 25 year old in the draft last year. And Cam Johnson, it turned out to be pretty solid. I was wrong about Cameron Johnson. He plays like a six-year veteran. Yeah, exactly. Because he's as old as one. Yeah.

We'll go next, Chris. Let's get to our current player. Oh, you're going to love this so much, Kevin. Okay. You are going to love this because this is a current player that intrigued me as we head into this very short off season. Because I think he is for sure going to end up in a different situation. And it is a guy that you still have a lot of stock in. In fact, I would tell you, Kevin, run and go buy all of his basketball cards right now

because his stock has never been lower. Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon, baby. I love it. Yeah. Aaron Gordon is going to be on another tee. Okay? Because here's the facts.

Sources say? Or just reading the tea leaves? I'm just reading the tea leaves. Nobody tells me this. I called John Hammond. No. Look, this is actually, my source is math.

So they have $100 million. They have $100 million already. And that's before Fornier picks up his player option. Okay? They can't afford this. So they're going to have to say goodbye. And if Fornier picks up his player option, which is about a million percent chance

he picks up his player option, you can't afford all of this. You also used your first round draft pick a year ago on a guy that I loved, Chuma O'Kiki, the kid from Auburn. he should be back. He'll be able to play next year. Guess what Tumokiki plays. Exactly what Aaron Gordon does, right? Like you, the fit has always been weird. Hopefully you have Jonathan Isaac back. You got these other two bigs at Buzovic and you've got

Bamba, right? Fornier is going to pick up his player option. I don't know, this is obviously you're not going to, you may get 50 cents on the dollar for what you're giving up because I I do believe Aaron Gordon could be much better in a different situation. But this is just mad. You're Orlando. You can't afford all of this. And the second that Fornier picked up his option, you're going to have to move off. And you're looking at their roster and you go, okay, so who are they moving off on?

And Gordon's the guy, especially when they used the draft pick on Okieki a year ago. And they're trying to figure out the fit with what they've drafted around. And Isaac also hopefully comes back and was looking like he was really coming into his own last year. I think Gordon's going to be in a different uniform next year. And so that's why I chose him as my current player that intrigues me. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I think if you're looking for a guy who's going to pop in his next situation, you would look for somebody who has versatility on defense to defend guards, wings, bigger guys who can short roll for you. and he's never really been able to do that with Orlando, never been able to be used as a screener who can pick apart defenses of the pass or finish with power or finish off the dribble. Aaron Gordon, like, you can look at his flaws as a guy who shoots 30% from three,

and that is understandably a real concern, but he has also been somebody who's had to be put into a situation that doesn't emphasize his greatest strengths. I would recommend anybody who wants to know about, like, what Aaron Gordon could be in a winning situation, go back to the 2018-19 season, watch his defensive possessions against Kauai Leonard and James Arden,

and watch the way he plays defense and now put that onto a team that has championship hopes. That's a very valuable player. And Aaron Gordon, to me, is somebody who could pop if he goes to a winning team. Yeah, it's just, look, it's honestly, it's a math equation here. When you're a team like Orlando,

you can't be spending $120 million on a team that stinks. And they're not good anyway. way. You know what I mean? Like, it's different if you're spending a fortune on a team that's good. Like, you got to move off some of this stuff. Would you consider trading, say, Vucevic instead, even though he is a really, really good player, too, who can shoot threes, good pay pass.

You wouldn't trade Vooch. Nope. I think Magic fans would largely agree with you. Yeah. I should text Kevin Clark and say. Gordon's been a disappointment for them. He has. Especially after they paid him a fortune.

He got a big contract now, Kev. He's got a, he got a, he got a. He got paid. And he does not, he had a bad season. Yeah, bad season. So anyways, that's my current player. Who's yours? Gordon Hayward, who's kind of sort of a free agent.

He is a player option for $30 million next year. But he's not really, I mean, he's sticking up that option. But he, something's funky up here. I mean, like the thought has long been that he would just opt right into $30 million dollars after some disappointing seasons coming back from that unfortunate injury. people assumed he would opt back in, but that doesn't seem to be so much of a certainty here for the Celtics or for Hayward.

I know Zach Lowe, I believe mentioned this on his podcast this week, but it seems like his agent Mark Bartlestein is playing the same Al-Horford playbook here and just reviewing the options that are available. Horford had a player option that he could have opted into. People thought he might. He didn't end up signing with the Sixers.

Gordon Hayward here. he is a situation. So if he doesn't pick up his player option, he's unrestricted. He is an unrestricted free agent. And with Hayward, he could have appeal. There might be appeal for him instead of taking the player option for $30 million in a year in which there will likely be financial losses with escrow, with money being withheld. You're likely not going to get that $30 million.

You could maybe opt out of the $30 million and sign for like a three-year, deal 20 million annually, something like that. Do you think the Celtics would do that? I don't know. Do you think 360? I don't know. If I'm Boston, I wouldn't, I wouldn't undersell that the value Hayward brings as, as a ball handling, playmaking presence for you.

So you see that thing about Indiana wanting him, that rumor that came out? I was like, of course they do. Of course they want it. If I'm Indiana, I'd be worried about a little depot leaving. Okay. But let's say you move Oladipo. I don't know if you're going to move O'Oledipo because I'm not sure what value he has right now. Teams that I talk to, they want to see Ollipo look like Victor Olipo.

The guy we saw this past year after returning from, again, another major injury, more major than Haywards. That's fair. He did not look like himself. And it sucks to see that. He would also be a guy that you could probably get for 50 cents on the dollar right now if you did believe. Right. Yeah. And with only one year left, you could always say goodbye, farewell. Right. His value's never been lower.

But I don't think the Pacers would trade out of him for 50 cents on the dollar unless he's pushing his way out, which I don't think is true. He does have a wandering eye. Yeah. And he does want to contend. But I'm not sure like he's, you know, slamming his fists on the table, telling the front office to trade him. That's not the case. If you're in the Celtics front office, what do you want Gordon Hayward to do? I mean, let's say he opts out. There's a scenario in which you could end up with caps. base. If he does opt out, there's a scenario in which it opens up your 9.3 mid-level exception. It gives you more financial flexibility. I mean, if you're the Celtics, you know your options.

I mentioned to you, Christian Wood. I'm putting you in that office. I'm putting you in the office. I would want Christian Wood if I'm the Celtics. So you would want him to opt out? I mean, I would want to be able to get Christian Wood. Whatever way, whatever path gets me to that, which includes Hayward opting out, I would want Christian Wood.

I think if you bring in Christian Wood to a winning situation, it amplifies the things that he can do. Interesting. So, I mean, with Hayward, there's value. If you want him on the Celtics and it really the great Gordon Hayward gone. There's value. There's value in Gordon Hayward, though, that shouldn't be underrated just because of his struggles and injuries. To me, the concern with Hayward is how much does he continue getting hurt? Some of these ankle injuries are worrisome that he keeps seemingly having to undergoes.

go and recover from. Take a quick break. When we come back, we are going to give our one draft pick that intrigues us, as we are now less than a month away from the NBA draft. All right, Kevin, we're going to get to our one draft pick that really intrigued. Wait, wait, wait, one second, Chris. We got a text from Kevin Clark. Oh, oh.

I asked him, you can only keep one, Gordon or Vrucivich. He says, Gordon. Vucevic requires a certain style of play, and Gordon can provide value in some way with any style of ball. Very interesting. And that's along the lines of the way I feel about Gordon. But I would be willing to bet if you pulled 100 NBA executives or a hundred Orlando Magic fans, most people would probably say Vucevic. Not Kevin Clark, though. I'm interested. I say, Vucci Maine. I want to keep the Vucci Maine if I'm an Orlando Magic fan. All right, the draft pick. Oh, you're going to love this, Kevin. Please. You are going to love this. Deliver it. I love

draft talk. He's low on your board. Low. But this guy intrigues me more than any other player because it feels to me the teams, executives, talent evaluators, et cetera, are more split on him than maybe any player I can remember in a long, long time. And that is Cole Anthony. Ah. So hear me out on this. Cole Anthony was for the longest time, the best player in that class. I mean, from the time they were little.

I knew Cole Anthony's name when he was 13 years old. Cole Anthony then lived up and surpassed most all expectations while he was a high school basketball player. He then went and played amongst the best of the best in all those games. He played in the McDonald's game. He was the MVP. He played in the Jordan brand game. He was the MVP. He played in the Hoop Summit.

He was the MVP. He was like the most sure thing this guy is going to be a big NBA star, you know, that you can get. When you team up all of that, right? And then you go play. They put these collections together, all the best guys. And you're the best guy. Every time. Every time.

He was the best guy at McDonald. He was the best guy at Jordan. He was the best guy at the Hoop Summit. It's like, okay, this is pretty, you know, it's pretty easy stuff to figure out here. And then he went to North Carolina. That season was a disaster. The team sucked. He did not have, the numbers are fine, but they're not efficient at all.

All right. And he got injured and missed like whatever it was, 11 games in the middle of it. And then obviously we didn't see, you know, they weren't going to the NCAA tournament anyway. way, right? So there's a couple things here. To me, I look at a guy like this and I say, all right, this is a down draft. This guy has infinitely more star potential than a lot of guys ranked ahead of him. All right. Is there a chance he busts out? I think very, very, very, very low. I watched an interview with this kid about two weeks ago about all the way. he's done community service-wise during the quarantine and all the coronavirus and all this kind of

stuff. Obviously, we know his father who's a broadcaster. His mom was a lawyer and then now, like, is a filmmaker. I mean, like, this guy, this guy's got great bloodlines, right? We know the parents, right, that are out there. And I watch this interview with him. This kid has an unbelievable head on his shoulders. Like, he just seems like a wise kid. I found him to be so likable. I really did. And I'm like, geez, man. Like, you listen to this kid talk, he talks about how much, how much work he's done in the community and how important that is to him and everything else. Just seems. And, you know, I juxtapose that against the way people talk about it, right? Doesn't make his teammates better. He doesn't, you know, pass well. He doesn't

have great vision. He doesn't have this. Bad shot selection. Yeah, bad shots selection, all this kind of stuff. But now, all right, now let me play the defense on this. Number one, this guy was the best of the best every time he played until that one year in college, which was a goofy year in college anyway. Number two, where are the other North Carolina guys on these draft boards? As far as I know, he was playing with a bunch of nothing. Like, where are they? There's nobody.

There's not one guy. So the expectation was that he was like, he's going to be like John Morant at Murray State and he's just going to lift up the entire team. You can't do that in the ACC. You can't have one awesome guy. And this whole, like, he doesn't really make players better. He doesn't really have the vision. I went back and watched his highlights.

You know what North Carolina did? They stood around all the time. I sit there and I watch their offense and I say, this is abysmal because they couldn't get stopped so they couldn't get out and run. And they also had two bigs in the half court too. Their half court offense is atrocious on these highlights. Atrocious. They're all standing around waiting for Cole.

Anthony need to do something. And then he goes seven for 19 in the game. And it's like, but those seven, you see something that other guys don't have. They just don't. And it used to be the combo guard was a bad thing. Like that was like something like that would be stamped on your head like a combo, like a scarlet letter. That's just not so anymore.

It's actually great to be a combo. Beaure, especially he's 6-3. So he's not a, you're not a, you know, he's not a tiny guy out there. The other thing is, I watch him and I say, this is a guy that will be so much better in the NBA than in the college game. The game that gets up and down, which most teams are playing now, he's built for that. And he can be dynamite. And so I think he's way too low on those boards. In a year that I don't love a lot of draft prospects, I would take a crack at him based upon, I would be able to overlook that North Carolina season and say, this dude from the time he was 13 to the time he was 19 was the best.

And he went and played against all the best guys and was always considered the best guy. So like, what the hell happened here? I blame college basketball and Carolina more than I do the kid. I love it. Scout with Verno. There you go. You know what, man?

I mean, you got me saying like, why? do I have them only 15th of my board? Because I'll tell you what, Chris. I've had a lot of those arguments with myself about Cole Anthony in recent months. And there's certain guys in this year's draft that I'm trying to get them higher on my board because I think this year, it could be one of those years in which the best players are the players drafted outside the top. It could be one of those years. We've seen it happen before. And it could be happening again right in front of us. And I look at Cole Anthony. I look at the guy I'm going to mention Tyrol Terry. a number of others, Desmond Bain, who we talked about last week.

There's just a lot of guys this year that I'm like, I like them just as much as Lamello Ball as Anthony Edwards, as some of the guys who are going to go top five. And, you know, Edwards might in a vacuum have higher upside than a Cole Anthony. He's six foot five and, you know, a brick house. And he can do stuff off the dribble for you. He could be a better defender than Cole Anthony. But it's not like with Cole Anthony, he doesn't hustle on defense.

No. Even though he's only 6.3, he grinds on the defensive end of the floor. He blocks guys at the rim. Like, I saw some of these highlights and I was like, the guy I'd compare him to as somebody like Fred Van Bleet. Fred Van Bleet in college, four years at college was undersized. He is undersized. But he battles on defense and has become a guy you can't pick on for the rappers.

And Cole Anthony, he's a bit thinner than a Van Bleet. But, you know, with that type of intensity, you can survive. You can survive. The other thing is, Kevin, you know the other thing when I watch his highlights? You remember how we were talking about how Rondo doesn't jump on his threes? He does sometimes, but a lot of times he just takes that set shot. He does not, like, waste a lot of energy on that three. And I think that kid's going to be able to knock down NBA threes.

Yeah, man, I think, I think Colin, look, he shot 38% from the field. He shot 40% from 2, 35% from 3, 75% from the line. He was very, very inefficient last year for North Carolina. And scouts and execs, they fall on one side of the other. The people who are supporters of him, as you're arguing for, say, look at the spacing he had. He was not able to get to the rim. They point to situations in which he did have space and they're like, look how good he was in these scenarios. The people who are against him as a player say he's only six foot three.

He's limited with size. the shot selection is poor, the inefficiency is there, he's not a true playmaker, what is he for you any more than like a spark plug off your bench? There's two different sides and two different ways of viewing him. And I've sort of fallen somewhere in the middle there so far with where I have him ranked at 15th. But there's no denying that for a guy who could go outside the top 10, he could, he has high steel potential.

At the least, there's high steel potential. if I told you Cole Anthony in five years is wearing an NBA All-Star uniform that would not be insane. And it just is for a lot of these guys. They're not going to be All-Star. Could he become like Austin Rivers, though? A good role player, you know.

Yes. And he could become Austin Rivers. And that's what people worry about on the side that are like, eh, let someone else gamble on him. That's right. But you're saying maybe he becomes a Kemba Walker. I think his ceiling is way,

higher. I think everybody admits that. If it all worked, his ceiling is way higher than most of his peers. This gets to what we were talking about with Christian Wood. How do you value, how do you weigh risk? That's right. How do you weigh risk? And some teams might be more willing to absorb risk than that's why this year is different to me. In a normal year, I'd be like, I don't know. But in this year, shit. If I could get a guy that might be an all-star, I could, you could see him. You could see him, I watch his highlights and I go, I could see that dude scored 30 points in an NBA game. Easy. Oh, yeah.

Easy. No doubt. You know what I mean? I'm with you. And how many guys do I watch their tape? And I go, yeah, that guy's got to score 30 points in an NBA game. Like, I, you, like, that dude was so good for so long. And again, I know that these all-star games aren't the end-all-be-all.

I'm not trying to make him to be. But just to understand, he was always considered the best guard, always. And then when he played against all the best of the best, he was always the best guy. And I don't know what the hell happened. But I make excuses for it because I watch those highlights. And I go, that's four guys standing around and a six three guy trying to make it happen. And in college, you could just stand in the frigging paint.

So it's harder, right? Like there's so little space. College basketball. God, you watch some of these highlights. It sucks. It can get ugly. It can get ugly. It sucks.

Offen sucks in college basketball. You know what I mean? All right. Who's your draft pick? I mentioned him in passing earlier. Talked about him a bunch. Tyrell Terry. Freshman from Stanford.

Terry, I've had conversations because I've had him top 10 on my board since the draft guy had launched, I think in March or April, whenever it was. And people at that time were like, you get Tyrell Terry top 10. What is it that you see in his game? I have him outranked outside the first round. I've had multiple people who said that to me then who have now said, yeah, I got them ranked top 15, top 20.

Well, they haven't played any game since. Well, what did happen, though, is this year in this weird year for everybody, for draft prospects, the draft is normally in June. It's in November. Those five months between Tyrol Terry has been afforded the time to change his body. He's gained 12 pounds of muscle. He grew half an inch. He's 6 foot 2, 175 pounds right now.

still needs to gain more weight. But the goal for him, I talked to him recently for an article coming out this week, the goal is eventually to get to like 185, 190, which is C.J. McCollum, weight. And at his height and with his frame, he can support that. And with Terry, man, weight and body was the only knock anybody ever had on him. Every conversation I had was like, but he's so small, but he's so small. It was never anything about his game. Never.

He can knock down threes for you. he's a creative finisher around the rim. He's a quick decision maker. He's not like a lead playmaker for you, but he's a guy who can share the ball and handle some pick and roll responsibility for you. When I talked to him, he said he's been studying pick and roll a lot, like how to snake pick and roll, how to make reads.

On defense, we just talked about this with Cole Anthony, even though he's undersized. That dude plays so hard, man. He battles. If he's on a switch against a bigger guy, he will battle and get low and try to use his body for leverage to his advantage. And man-to-man situations against smaller guys,

he's good moving his feet. I don't look at him as somebody who is a liability in the majority of matchups on defense. I look at him as somebody who plays winning basketball. And I have him ranked eighth of my board right now. Part of me thinks he should be even higher than that. Wow. You're resisting for him higher.

You love Tyrell Terry. I love Tyrol Terry. And I think we're talking, if you're gambling on a draft pick, I would want, if I'm a GM, I'd want to bet on somebody who has high character. And there is no doubt from people I've talked to that knew him in college that also now have talked to him in the league. People are impressed by him as a person.

And as am I, I mean, like he's, he's, I think he's more mature than me. I'm 10 years older than him. But he is a, a smart kid who, who really loves the game and loves the work. And to me, that's the type of person that I would want to bet on. and to maximize their potential, whatever it might be, whether it's star, high level role player, or whatever, one-time All-Star, I'd bet on him to maximize whatever it is that he's going to be.

And to me, I have little doubt that at worst, he can be like Seth Curry, which is a really good role player for your team who can play off ball, who can handle the ball in a pinch. To me, at worst, that's what you're looking at. At best, I mean, he can be a heck of a lot more than that. with his shot-making ability and his passing ability on the offensive end of the floor. I'm in love with his game, and I think he's going to be a good player for a long, long time.

And I can't wait to see where he goes because it could be late lottery. It could be late first. It's a wide range for him. And I'm intrigued to see where somebody like him lands. Let me tell you, Kevin, one of my best buddies is Brevin Knight, who I do Grizzlies broadcast with, and he's one of the all-time greats at Stanford ever. And he constantly reminds me, they don't let dummies into Stanford. So when you're sitting there talking about his smart kid,

way more mature than me, whatever. I was like, of course he is. And with the freaking Stanford. As Brevin would say, they don't let dummies into Stanford. He says that because I couldn't have gotten in. No chance.

No chance I could have gotten into Stanford. All right, Tyrell Terry. I will, I'm going to do the deep dive. I'm going to do the YouTube deep dive and see if I can fall. You'll like Tyrell. I'll see if I can fall in love with him too.

All right, Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Make sure if, are we doing a mailbag on Friday? Yeah, I believe we, we're doing a mailbag. So email us at NBA mailbag at gmail.com to send your questions. A lot of, a lot of draft related questions would be really nice. Yep. And, you know, life questions are cool as well, but, you know, or NBA questions. Yeah, we're leading up to the draft.

Let's do a big draft week. And also, you know, in the meantime between Tuesdays and Friday show, today on the ringer I updated my mock draft. That's up there. We get some fake trades in there. I get Charlotte trading up to number one. I saw Wiseman at one. Yeah, yeah.

Got a couple other Charlotte fans aren't a fan of it, which is one of the reasons why I put it in there. I wanted to get, take the temperature of Hornets fans. They're Charlotte fans, huh? Stop. Don't say that. They exist. They're out there.

There are magic fans and there are Hornets fans. We've never gotten a Hornets question. ever. Let's get some Hornets questions for Friday show. Draft related hornets questions. But not all Hornets. We're going to do some other teams too. But yeah, check out the ringers NBA draft guide. You can find that pinned on my Twitter

page at Kevin O'Connor, NBA, or go straight to NBA draft dot the ringer.com. And you'll find the mock draft and my top 50 big board. Give them the email address. NBA mailbag at gmail.com. NBA mailbag at gmail.com. Thanks to

everybody for listening to another episode of the mismatch. Thank you to producer Sasha as always, and we will talk to you on Friday. Have a good week, everybody.