The Ringer NBA Show - NBA 2020-2021 Season Dates Are Set. Plus: Where LaMelo Ball and Other Prospects Will Wind Up in the Draft | The Mismatch

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

Verno and KOC get into all the NBA news that’s broken over the past couple of days regarding the start of the 2020-2021 season (0:45) and where LaMelo Ball could end up in the draft (11:00), and then they talk through some of the most interesting prospects in the draft (30:30). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Kevin O'Connor on today's episode of The Mismatch. Chris Vernon and I discussed the latest trade and free agent and draft rumors. And we talked a lot about La Mello Ball, Patrick Williams, and Tyrell Terry. All that next. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.K.

Kevin O'Bomber, Kavana, Kevin O'Compenter, Kevin O'Candness. Kevin O'Haw. Burdo. We got NBA coming back soon, baby. We do have the NBA coming back soon, and there has been a lot of news in the last couple of days, not the least of which was we got a date for free agency, which will start two days after the NBA draft. And so on today's show, we will talk a lot of offseason. We're going to talk about the draft. We'll talk about that upcoming free agency and maybe some trade possibilities.

But first things first, just the details of how this thing is going to play out. Adrian Ward Janowski reported last night that the NBA has now kind of put together a framework for the way this is going to work. So walk me through it. So on November 16th next Monday, the trade moratorium ends, which means deals will be able to happen. That's two days before the draft on the 18th. And then on the 20th, free agency begins at 6 p.m. And players will be allowed to sign at 12.01 p.m. So next week is going to be insane with trades, with the draft, with free agency.

It's all going to happen quickly with only like 10 days to spare before training camp on December 1st. And one thing to note with the report last night in the league and the union, both also issued a press release about this, that the cap will stay at $109.1 million. The luxury tax will stay at $132.6 million, which means the mid-level and the bi-annual exception amounts will stay the same. The mid-level will be worth about $9.3 million, which means some of those teams that are over the cap could have the opportunity

to contend with teams for some of the players that are in that sort of middle range and Jeremy Grant, a Christian Wood type of guy. And they're alleviating some of the luxury tax burden, which is going to help a team like the Warriors because of the financial impact of coronavirus. And just one other thing, the cap will increase by a minimum of 3% per year and a maximum of 10% per year to the rest of the current CBA, which means next season. And this is important because Janus and all these stars, Rudy Gober are going to be a free agent next year. The cap will be at least 112.4 million with a maximum of 120 million.

And that means a team like the heat or even Dallas can pretty easily create max cap space to make a run at Iana Sancta Campo. So we learned a lot in the last 24 hours. And this next week, I mean, it's going to be a wild ride, Chris. Wild. Okay. So as I followed that timeline and everything that's going to take place and this moratorium ending for trades prior to the draft, given that we have such a small amount of time to build your team prior to a training camp beginning, because we're talking about

less than a two-week span from the time the draft ends. Really, 10 days or so from when free agency, when you could sign something for that. Okay, so you don't have this much time. Does this in your mind mean that we will, in fact, see a flood of trades come in prior to the NBA draft? Because if you are going to be wheeling and dealing for the draft, the upcoming draft, then you might get those done. But beyond that, even outside the draft, just in terms of team building, that if you're going to make a trade, you go ahead and make that trade,

and then you have the draft, and then you have free agency, and now I have my roster put together. And so if I'm going to make this deal, right, like to me, if there's a trade for a point guard or a power forward out there, and the best available player, and I've got a top pick, is a point guard or a power forward, that obviously informs my decision making going into the draft, And so do you sense that there could be a huge flurry of trades,

even in those few days before we get to the Wednesday draft? It's possible. I mean, there's a lot of conversations happening right now, both for free agents, you know, with teams, you know, tampering, whatever it is. It's understandable, you know, everything that's happening. And there's, you know, potentially minor trades that we could see happen as well. And who knows with major trades, you know,

there's the rumor about, you know, Daryl Morey wanting James Hardin. and, you know, I would highly doubt Houston Woodtray James Harden. But it is interesting the last 24 hours. I did have multiple sources that I trust tell me that teams believe Russell Westbrook could be had. That Westbrook could be had. And I've heard the Clippers have interest. I've heard the Knicks have interests in Westbrook. And whether anything materializes there, who knows?

Who knows? But the fact is, is that there is a belief that a guy like Westbrook that become available. And I want to be shocked if over the next week we hear more names that kind of come out of nowhere because this is a wacky year,

man. Some teams are trying to cut costs. Some teams are willing to make big moves, you know, that they otherwise maybe wouldn't have tried to make because it's a week free agent class. This is your way to get a star player and trying to make a run here.

But we're going to see a lot of rumors over this next week with the draft, with trades, and with free agency. And Westbrook being one of the big, the biggest name that I've heard the last 24th. I'm not letting you gloss over this.

Russell Westbrook being on the move, okay, it's a million things that run through my mind. The first of which is, wow, after one year, right? And they just did it with Chris Paul. Like he wanted out the year before. Obviously, you had the Dwight Howard experiment. I mean, this is going to be, I don't know how many superstar teammates James Hardin needs to have that run away from him. But now Russell Westbrook, the whole idea that he can be had out there, This is something that is insanely intriguing.

And regarding teams, you said clippers maybe? And Nicks maybe. Knicks makes sense. Clippers are a little bit of a weirder fit there because it's one or the other. It's either you're treating a whole bunch of salaries, you know, Beverly, Zubots, Landry, Shammett, or you're trading Paul George. How about for Paul George? They can all just play musical chairs.

And you know what? Like, I mean, who knows if anything happens there? But the fact is, is that we're going to get a lot of this over this next week about players who could be available. And by the way, for Houston, losing Daryl Morey, you know, some of the dysfunction there, you know, some of the, you know, changing head coach, you know, for Titta being the owner that he is, it's understandable perhaps if they want to make a move there and split that up. But if they were to trade Westbrook who James Hardin wanted to play with,

I'm not sure how well that would go over with Harding. Okay, but you're saying that Westbrook has interest in maybe getting out of there, right, in terms of what you've heard? More so that teams believe that he can be had. As for Westbrook, I mean, who knows? He's a California guy. Maybe he wants to go to a bigger market, but I don't know that for sure. But teams believe he can be had. Okay.

So this clearly is a massive deal that could happen. and, man, usually when there's smoke, there's fire on something like that. If somebody's told you that, Kevin, and obviously you've sourced this with people, if somebody's told you that and that word is going around, it's hard to imagine going into another season with those two and everything just being fine. It just is. Conversations happen, though. Yeah, but it doesn't.

I mean, so let's put it this way now. Who does that happen to? Conversations happen, though, all the time. Like I said, Darryor Mory, there's a report he watched James Hardin. Of course he watched James Hardin. I'm sure he made an offer. But that's different. But I'm sure he made an offer for James Hardham, too.

Is that going to hurt Ben Simmons if he was offered for James Hardin? No. Probably not. It's different if you're saying that it's framed as he can be had. It is a big story if somebody says Ben Simmons can be had. It is a big story if they say Paul George can be had. It is a big story because that means the team. that means the team is out there floating that around.

And if we know that ahead of time, then that's what I say. It's hard to believe they're obviously not enthused about running it back with those two. For whatever reason, if that's out there, if there are people that say that, but if there's people that say he can be had, that is a big deal because what that means is Houston isn't exactly enthralled with running it back. it is a big deal and you know with houston you can understand why after everything went wrong in the playoffs after westbrook wasn't defended in the half court when he didn't have the ball on his hands and maybe that there's a better fit with hard and to maximize the years that you have with him

pulling the plug sooner rather than later can sometimes be the best choice that a team can make you know that i'm not the biggest westbrook fan if i'm the clippers i would not trade for russle westbrook and i definitely wouldn't trade paul you know i wouldn't trade any stars for for Westbrook, but I understand the appeal there, you know, for a team that does need some shock creation, does need a guy who can create for you. And Westbrook can bring that at a high level as a playmaker. In fairness, you now are the best friend of the guy who's been divorced three different times, and you say he picks bad chicks every time. I mean, at some point it's your buddy's fault, Kev, I'm sorry. I mean, he's on his fourth, and they all want out. Something,

is awry. Maybe he's just poor at choosing his partners. Maybe, maybe. But he'll have, but now he can maybe marriage number four. Hell, it took what? Like Larry King got married like seven times or something, right?

So, hey, you never know. Larry King is still a legend. I know. And he's still a legend. All right. So we've got that whole trade stuff that is, we don't know there could be a huge flurry leading up to the draft. And given that this draft is not one that so many teams are intensely married to players or even their pick slot in this draft, there could be a lot of action in this draft, right?

Because it's not like, hey, we pretty well know who the top five players are going to be. I would tell you this, right now, and I know there's a lot of people that believe that there's the top three that are behind you actually in your, in your Zoom background. Those three guys are three. But I will tell you, Kev, I'd give pretty long odds to somebody to pick the top five correctly. And I'm not talking teams and who they pick.

I'm talking just who are the five players that go off the board one through five. And so that to me tells me how crazy that draft could be too. If you can't even properly predict who's going to go one through five, at least the players in some order, then that makes it a lot more difficult.

I mean, you think about last year, there was no question. We knew Zion Williamson, John Morant, R.J. Barrett, that those guys were going where they were going, right? And it might be so that the top three is the top three this year, but everything seems to be wild behind it. But I want to start regarding the draft with that top three. So I felt like Jonathan Gavone took shots at you and Ryan Rissillo yesterday.

I really did. listen to it. I was like, damn, man. You know, look, anybody, people can say whatever they want to say, but he said, I don't get all the Lamello stuff basically accusing, you know, the idea that, because you guys were both out there pretty, I mean, you're on videos that were passed around the internet that went viral saying that you're hearing Lamello could drop that some teams don't love Lamello. Ryan went as far to, I mean, he's out on Lamello. Simmons piled on. Simmons doesn't like him either.

And so then I think Gavoni then responded while he was on with Zach Lowe by saying, I don't know where this is coming from. It sounds like guys that are outside of the top 10. Teams that are outside of the top 10 are the kind that are saying this kind of stuff. But teams within the top 10, they're super excited about lamello ball. Despite what I think he said, part-time draft experts or a part-timer. I've always thought you were a full time like Kevin.

But anyways, I don't know, he cared a little too much about La Mello Ball in my opinion, but whatever. I get defending your work and having him number one on the board and saying that.

But what do you make of that because you came on here, you know, when we did the show a couple of weeks ago and said you were hearing that there's some teams that aren't into Lamello and that he could be a dropper.

For what it's worth, Gavoni's report on ESS. Spian was that he's hearing that teams are operating as if Lamello will be the number one pick. Yeah. And last week, Rucillo and I and others reported that he could potentially slip. And, you know, Gavoni's awesome what he does. I respect his hustle and his work ethic. But in this case, I just think our sources are saying different things.

With Lamello Ball, you know, maybe he does go number one. There's a chance of that. With Minnesota, there's a lack of clarity with who they're going to select. There's a lot of noise out there. I've heard there's some noise that they could take Weisven and trade him. There's some noise that they could take Lamello and trade him. There's some noise that Anthony Edwards doesn't want to go there. So who knows what Minnesota is going to do exactly.

It's hard to predict the draft and we don't know which teams are going to be picking where. And in this case, I called over 15 people yesterday after that report came out because I want to make sure I get this as right as I can when there's so much uncertainty around the draft. And all of them, every single one of them said the same thing. we're not operating like we know where LaMello's going to go because they don't know who's going to take who's going to have the number one pick Minnesota could trade that and they said yeah with La Mello there's a chance that he could slip how far I don't think lemo would fall far here I think Chicago if he were there at number four I would be willing to bet that the Chicago Bulls would take lamella ball with that fourth pick but we'll see what happens on draft night man this is very very fluid if you're playing on Chicago though that's not dropped That's not, I don't, see, that's something I don't, that's like slipping, you know, it's a little slip, but you don't fall on the ground here. It's a little slip to number four. But it, it, and by the way, that might be the best fit for him, Chicago.

I'm just, look, I'm just giving my opinion on this. I appreciate anybody that is willing to go to the wall for somebody. I just, listening to it to me, and this is just my opinion, I found it strange to go so hard for Lamello. Like, I got it with Luca, but this guy is not. like we're not talking about Derek Rose here. We're not talking about, you know, somebody that's like Zion Williamson, right?

That's not Lamello. And then like, I felt like, I don't know. It just, it came, it came all strange to me because it was like, this is without question. And there's a lot of themes that love him. And I don't trust Anthony Edwards. And I don't like James Wiseman. I wouldn't take him either.

And I was like, well, what the hell? Like, what is going on here? Like, it all, it just felt all in on Lamello. And so I don't know if that was a reaction. to the reaction, or if he really loves Lamello that much, or I don't know. It was just, it just, it just came off as odd to me as someone listening because I, I had never heard anybody go so hard for Lamello. I mean, that could be it.

There's quite a lot, you know, floating out there. And with Lamello, it's the type of thing. We're like, the talent is unquestionable. I mean, he's an unbelievable playmaker. He's so fun to watch. Remember that move during the season, the double spin move with the behind the back pass? It's fun. It's great.

And the playmaking's there. There are legitimate questions about the jump shot, shot in the 20%. He had a low free throw shooting percentage in the low 70s. His decision making and shot selection are not great. His defensive energy and effort and focus are all question marks. And with Lamello, maybe over time as he continues to mature, like I said, last week, I don't think Lamello's gotten enough credit for going to Lithuania as a 15-year-old and getting better, going to Australia and getting better.

He deserves a lot of credit for that. He does. And it does show maturity. It also shows what a screwed up deal he got. And to me, like, we could act like the dad's not on freaking first take and on you speak first or whatever hell show is on in the morning. Like, he is. And his dad will run 10 miles to find a microphone. And your dad being something a team thinks of as they have to teach.

deal with rather than being an asset for you is a thing. It just is. I don't, I don't know why everybody pussyfoot's around this. It just is. I've been around so many prospects over the last 20 years. I've been around everybody from O.J. Mayo to now John Morant and Mike Conley. And I've seen, I've seen Mike Conley's family move to town and be around him and be just this absolute backbone when adversity hit. And you had guys like me on the radio saying we should get rid of this guy, like he had that kind of structure and he had that kind of great leadership that he could fall back on. I see it all the time with John Morant and with Jaron Jackson. That's why I bet on these guys so much because I see, and then I see other guys that move in and they got a house with

six of their homies from college or they don't have that kind of family structure. And when things go wrong, they don't have something to fall back on. And we can act like that's not a thing. we can act like they don't have an effing reality show, but they do. You're drafting like a Kardashian. It is what it is. You're going to be on, his plight on your team is going to be documented outside of your team.

Whether you like it or not. Like that's happening. And so why are we acting like that's not a thing with him? Like that to me is the thing that we're, me the most. It is. He's on a reality show every week. Like, they're talking to, and his dad will, you never know if you're going to wake up in the morning and the dad's going to be on the, on first take saying the coach is a dickhead. Like, what are we talking about here? I'm sorry for my rant, but like, are we going to just act like that's not part of this story? I mean, Chris,

along those lines, there are people in the league who believe Lamello, I mean, I know this is going to pick that, but some people believe with the stories about the poor interviews that he's had, some people believe, like, those interviews have been so bad that he's tanking to try to get to the Knicks. And you've heard that as well.

When you told me about interviews, look, now, I watch, Hubey Brown screamed at Dwayneway during a workout. I saw James Harden tank a workout. I saw Paul George take a workout. I've seen all manner of players that just said, look. You've seen this in the past then. Hell yeah, the Grizzlies were the worst team in the league.

They won 20 games. They had drafted Mike Conley. Point guards don't want to go there. Steph Curry, how about this? The year they had, they took stupid the beat. Steph Curry didn't even come to work out. You're still so sour about that pick. But no, no lie.

Steph Curry did not work out for the team. Wow. At all. His dad didn't knew. I mean, like they had just drafted, you know, they have, they have Mike. Conley, they have OJ Mayo, they have Rudy Gay. And it's like, okay, the team stinks. The owner doesn't spend any money.

And I don't want, I want to steer my kids somewhere else that maybe he might play a game that has a camera on it. Because at that point, nobody, like, Grizzlies, you would, if you watch Sports Center, you wouldn't even know they existed unless the Lakers kicked their ass. I mean, that's just the reality. Yeah, for sure. Players do this all the time. Yeah.

And like, that's why, like, when I say that, I know it'll get picked up because it's Lamello. is that that's nothing unusual. And, and with Lamello, it's the type of thing where New York would be great for him. They're a team. They're a clean slate. They need a point guard, put him next to R.J. Barrett, and maybe they add a star through trade or for agency over the next year. They could be a winning team pretty soon. That would be great for Lamello. And, you know, we'll see where he goes on draft night. But from everybody I talk to, and I trust my sources, who knows where he's going to go. It could be one. Maybe Minnesota makes a trade. It could be number

forward to Chicago. We'll see what happens. Or maybe he slips past there because Chicago does also like Patrick Williams. They like Danny Avdia. And I can't imagine Lamella would want to go to Cleveland. And I'm not sure how Cleveland would make it work with Colin Sexton and Arias Garland and Lamello Ball. You got to explain

to me this Patrick Williams thing. So Patrick Williams, Florida freshman, Florida State freshman, came off the bench. He was their sixth man, really great team in the ACC. You look at the numbers, 22 minutes per game, nine points per game, and you think you're talking I don't know if this guy is a lottery pick, be serious.

But with his size, six foot eight, with his frame, an NBA body, NBA length. And with his style of play, he, Charks wrote a great feature about Patrick Williams. It's up on the ringer.com today that everybody should check out. And Charks had a paragraph in there about like, right now Patrick Williams isn't a great scorer, he's a good score. He's not a great defender. He's a good defender. He's not a great passer.

He's a good passer. And teams look at that. this year's draft and they see somebody who's the youngest player in the draft with his size, with his overall skill set as somebody that could grow and continue down that path and become perhaps the best overall player in the draft class. I've also raised Patrick Williams on my latest big board, which will be out, I think, Thursday on the ringer's 2020 NBA draft guide. I had him like 15, 16 for the large part of the year. But reevaluating him, the more I hear about him as a person with his work ethic, how much he wants to get better.

And, you know, from what people say, he has improved since the college season. He hasn't worked out for any teams. But teams do believe he has improved his shot, which was improved from his high school year to his freshman year as well. So he's already on a trajectory of improvement. And I'm going to have him rank somewhere in my top eight, top 10 with the big board update on Thursday. Because this is a guy who checks a lot of boxes in a year with a lot of questions.

marks. It reminds me, there's actually two Carolina guys that this applies to that I remember, and they were always a little bit hard, but I'm saying like the whole didn't play a million minutes, but were, what ended up being drafted highly. Like they didn't play a million minutes on their college team for whatever reason. Brandon Wright years ago for North Carolina and Ed Davis years ago for North Carolina. I mean, it's a some extent. I mean, and we've seen guys like this because some. Sometimes it's like the guys that play. Typically, if you're awesome in college, like you're playing 35 minutes. But sometimes teams play you 20-something minutes your first year. And then your next year is because they want you to come back for another year. Like honestly. But I mean, Brandon Wright, this happened to if you go back and look, didn't play a million minutes in college. Ed Davis.

Like those kind of longer, lanky, like a lot of potential, but you didn't see it all the way in college. And then they end up, you know, going in the top 10 of the NBA draft. And so it's happened before. Sure. You know, and those guys, they ended up being solid NBA players, but not stars. You know what? And with Patrick Williams, I was one of the first to report, like, maybe about a month ago, that the Pistons really liked him at the seventh pick.

There was conversation about him at the eighth pick for the Knicks. I mean, there's conversation now that he could go number four to Chicago. I mean, he could go that high. I would expect his range to be somewhere in the four to eight range. I can't see. I mean, maybe he drops. I know San Antonio likes him at number 11.

They have a number of guys that they like their Jada McDaniels too. It seems like San Antonio may be targeting one of these bigger, longer wings who have a lot of room to grow. Both Patrick Williams and Jada McDaniels fit that profile. And if the Spurs like a guy, hey, a lot of people should like a guy. And that's been floating out there for a while.

But I'd be surprised. if he were to fall to 11 at this point based off what we're hearing this past week about where he could go. The most fascinating thing to me is that the teams that are at the very top of this draft are not miserable teams, right?

There's different lottery odds and so like the truly terrible teams like the Clevelands, like the Detroit's, like the Knicks, those teams are farther down in the draft. But they're the ones that could benefit the most by having, you know,

moving up in this draft and like they need it. They need a savior. I don't know if there is a savior. But what I'm saying is, but what I'm saying is, them possibly moving up to one of those top spots seems to me, you know, because look,

it sucks to be terrible for a whole year and then pick seventh. If you're Detroit, like you've mentioned Detroit a couple times on this. Like to me, if you're Detroit, move up. I don't know, man. This year is different. This year is different because those, you know, we're talking about Lamello, Anthony Edwards,

James Wiseman, all those guys have a lot of questions. And, you know, years from now when we do redrafts in a year, two years, three years, it would shock nobody if a Patrick Williams is number one. It would shock nobody if a Killian Hayes is number one. Or even like if Tyrese Halliburton, we talked about him recently as one of the safer picks in the draft, but if Halliburton's ball handling

continues to improve in addition to his reliability on defense, his good spot-up shooting, his awesome playmaking, he's a guy that could like in redrafts be a top three pick. And he, by the way, John Hollinger today had him going number four to Chicago and I don't think that'll happen,

but there is a possibility we do see Halliburton go forward. He's really the third name that I've heard connected to the Bulls with that fourth pick, Patrick Williams, Denny Avdia, and Tyrese Halliburton. So we'll see where he goes. But to me, you can factor in the strengths

and weaknesses of these players, the concerns and the uncertainty with them. The sweet spot might actually be like that 6 to 14 range. Reason being is also the rookie scale. The number one pick is going to make a lot of money.

The number one pick, let's say it's James Wiseman. James Wiseman is going to make more money as a rookie than a lot of good starting centers in the league. And that is something that teams take into consideration with whether to trade up or not to trade up because of the rookie skill and the path that you go down as that deal gets larger over the first four years during his rookie year and then perhaps a max contract on the second deal. There is,

there is incentive to stay in the middle of the lottery rather than trade up. So we'll see how there shakes out on draft night. Nothing would shock me when it comes to trades, whether it's, you know, Minnesota and Charlotte flipping spots or whether it's Golden State trading down with a Detroit or in New York. There's a lot on the table, a lot on the table. And one of the things teams do consider, though, is the rookie skill and how much they're going to have to pay some of these players. One of their note, though, on trades, Chris, Boston seems to be the only team that's

really trying to trade up. They have 14, 26, and 30. And they're trying, like, hell to package those three picks with some other. assets together to move up. For who? I don't know. I haven't be able to put my finger on the player that they're targeting. But for one of those teams in the middle of the lotto, to me, that's appealing. Because again, this is a draft with a lot of good quality role players and maybe guys who pop towards the middle in the back of the first round. To me, that's appealing if you don't love any of the guys in the top seven or top eight. A guy asked me this morning, he's like,

who do you think's going to go number one? I said, I still think it's going to be Wiseman. I do. I think what it's all said and done, and the dust settles, I think it's going to end up being him. I said, and this is why I told him, it might end up being one of those Chris Weber situations, right? Where you get the Chris Weber one, you get the Penny Hardaway three, but then you get the swap that goes between them. So maybe he does end up in Charlotte, actually, but they take him number one and then they flip, you know, for maybe a guard or whoever it is, you know, that ends up getting drafted third. so I still kind of think it's going to be wise, but I do want to ask you about a player that I have not heard anybody really talking about in a long time. And it is the guy that was the best of all of them in college basketball.

We didn't get to see it play out. So maybe it's different. If they go, you know, right, this feels to me like the kind of guy that if they got in the tournament and they went to the elite eight and then they went to the final four. and maybe he's playing in a title game, it's obviously a massively different conversation than it is right now. But that was stolen away from all these kids. They weren't able to play in that.

That Dayton team was awesome, and he was the best player, and he was throughout the year, the best player of college basketball. And it started, I remember, in Maui, was the first time I heard about him, and I saw people tweeting about him. I flipped on those games,

and I'm like, Jesus, who is this? guy. I mean, he was so clearly the best player on the floor. So now we've got this guy who was the best player in college basketball by, I think, a decent margin. I don't know who was the second best player at college basketball, but he was the best. And I hadn't heard a damn thing about him in forever. And I have, I think it's like all over the map. Have you heard anything on Obitopin, who ended up being the best playing in college basketball in a year that was just so insanely strange it didn't get to finish. I know teams in the top five like him. I'm not sure if a Minnesota or a Golden State would take

him one or two. I'm sure the preference would be to trade down. Nothing would shock me. I mean, we saw Anthony Bennett go number one in 2013, which came as a shocker to everybody on draft night. Something like that could happen this year with like a top and going number one and number two. Who knows? But, you know, I do think Cleveland at number five, on the latest information that I've heard that they like Denny Avdia, who I mentioned Chicago also like Golden State likes Deni Avdiah too. Cleveland seems to like Topin and Avdia for that fifth pick. And if they were to take Obie Topin, that's adding another big guy on top of Andre Drummond and Kevin Love and Larry Nance. And maybe you bring back Tristan Thompson as

well. So they have some moves to make the shake that up. So we'll see what happens there if they take topping, but ultimately with him, man, there's no denying. Obie is a special offensive player for a player his size. He looks like Amari Stademeyer. You saw him play. He can leap out of the gym, finish with power at the rim. He can finish with finesse and touch. He can shoot threes.

He can reliably attack a closeout and do a little bit off the dribble for you. I mean, there is so much to like from him on the offensive and the floor. The question is the defense. he's a vertical athlete, a north-south player, but he doesn't move very well east-west. He doesn't have the lateral quickness on a switch. He doesn't look great, not necessarily even big enough against a true big, like a yokeach.

So he's a bit of a modern tweener in that sense, but if a team brings him in for workouts, if a teams feel like with their strength and conditioning programs, that they can make him passable on defense, passable is all he needs to be, because his offense is going to be a significant impact, from day one. He's a solid bet to win rookie of the year, by the way.

If you want to place a bet, Obie Toffat probably has some good odds on him. He's going to put up numbers. But it feels a little Rui Hachamaria. You know what I mean? He's way more skilled on offense than Rui, though. Way more skilled.

Here's what I will say. I talked to two different talent evaluators that wanted nothing to do with them, which I thought was strange. What was the reasoning? I'm curious. Just not the, He's not, he's not going to be an NBA star.

So why are we talking about him that high? Like he's. Because of the defense? Yeah, yes. And that he is, some knocked the age, right?

Of course he was all. No, but I mean, like, of course he's better than everybody. You know what I mean? Like, that is one thing,

right? The other is that, I'm sick of the ages. I'm in the draft. Because of the, it was really, For the most part, it's the size, and he's not a guy that's just going to bang down a ton of shots.

Everybody wants shooters now. He shot 42% from three in college, and I know it's only 103 jump shots. It's so low. Only 103 shots. That's low. That's low. You know that.

But that's promising. And by the way, I mean, like, that is one of the sources of fear that I get when I talked to people around the league, too. They have questions about not just the defense, everybody, even Dayton fans who, I said this to Titus and Tate last week when I was on their podcast,

I get more tweets about Obie Topin from Dayton fans than anybody, than any other prospect than any NBA player, I get more about Obie Topping because I have him ranked like 11th on my board. And like the reason why is not just the defense, but also

there's no guarantee with the jumper. He shot only 70% from the free throw line. Free throw percentage being a more a stronger indicator of future three point shooting success in the NBA. So there is concern that the shot isn't for real. And if it's not, that changes a lot about who he is. You can go to a local gym and you could go to your local lifetime fitness and you can

find a guy that bangs down college threes. It's not that hard of a shot. It's really not. It's really not. Making the college three at a high rate is not impressive to me. It is a radically different shot shooting NBA. threes at a high level. It just is.

It's, I mean, like shooting shots in an open gym is totally different, but like, you know, compared to, in a college game. There's also a lot of college kids that could destroy you from the three point line. Yeah. With Toppin, though, I feel some, I feel some confidence in his shot. I think he, he tends to make good decisions. I don't think he falls, he hasn't fallen in love with his jubber. He still likes to play inside and attack the rim.

And that's his priority. And, you know, at 22 years old, You know, I understand. I understand why somebody would want to go with a younger player. And like I would too. I haven't ranked 11th on my board. You know, I don't have them as a top five pick like some people do. But with Toppin, the age I don't look at as quite as much as the pure skill that he has and the potential.

Two things. First, I think that the reason I brought him up is because if he ended up being awesome, it would be hilarious to me to be one of those yeah what the hell was everybody watching like this guy was obviously awesome we just watched him in college basketball kill everybody and you overthought it and you took guys that were sixth men on other teams because they had more potential than the guy you already saw was awesome i i am always the defender of the older guys i find that the NBA gets incredibly agest when it comes the NBA draft number two I will back you up completely on your Dayton talk. Dayton made it all the way to the Sweet 16, the lead eight, and their pod was in Memphis, Kevin. I have been all over this country to the NCAA tournament over the last several years,

and Kentucky obviously takes over arenas. The most impressed by a fan base I've ever been in my life was Dayton. That's when Archie Miller was there. and was coaching them. And, I mean, they took over an arena and they were the loudest. It was a sea of red. It was like the entire city had come to support that basketball team. And I, I guess it was just by, it was just the immense surprise of it all when you walk in

the arena and you're like, oh my God, it was like they were frigging Duke or Carolina or Kentucky or somebody like that. I mean, they took over the arena and were the loudest. I mean, it was unbelievable, absolutely positively unbelievable. So shout out to Dayton. I am unsurprised that they are that invested with a player that has a chance to go that high because it's been a long time for them. It's pretty cool because.

Oh, they love that team. I love it. I mean, I appreciate the passion. When the draft guide first launched, I had, like right now, if you look at the guide, the shades of comparisons that I have for top and arm. Amari Stottomire, Kyle Kuzma, and bouncy Marcus Morris. When the guide first launched, I had Amari Stottomire on offense, Jalea Loko for on defense.

Oh, no. And Dayton fans were all over me for that. You should have just put traffic cone. Traffic cone on defense. And, you know, I changed that because, I mean, it wasn't as accurate as I would like it to be. I think Kuzma is a more. accurate comparison for him. Kuzma, a fine defender.

Yeah. Not a lockdown defender, but that's what you hope it becomes. A fine defensive player and somebody who has that Amari Stodemeyer style offensive impact for your team in the modern NBA. I like him, I like him. The defensive impact is why I have him behind some of the other guys like an Okoro or James Wiseman or an Okongwu because I feel better about what those guys can be in the defensive end of the floor as big players on your defense.

The top 10 player on and let's go with your draft board that's going to come out on Thursday. So we won't, I'm not going to spoil the whole thing. But pull up your draft board that you have sent into the ringer that is going to come out on Thursday. Okay. Look at what you are going to send to the ringer on Thursday. And of those top 10 players and I, I'm a GM and I call you. And I say, Kevin, of the guys that you have, have in your top 10, who would you be most scared to draft if you were me?

I mean, if it's like top three, Lamello. No, any. Top 10. Top 10 players in the draft. On your list, who would you be most scared of? I'll give you two names. One top five guy, one like five to 10 range. Okay.

Top five guy, lamello, for all the reasons we talked about with the jump shot, with the defensive impact. I mean, there's fear there. And everything you mentioned as well, like the Facebook show and all that as well all these off-court variables that off-the-court stuff matters I just matter yeah I don't want hassle out of my rookie rookies are supposed to be going getting everybody

donuts and carrying our bag not not not not bitching not a bitching about me on a reality show maybe that's old school but I'm sorry yeah and then the other guy I would say Isaac Okoro which is a weird one to say and with Okoro I have no doubt no doubt that he's going to be a really good

offensive player really good with his body, with his length, with his mindset. It's Justice Winslow-esque, where I loved Winslow in his draft year. I had him, I think, second on my board. But Winslow's jumper has never really panned out to the level I need. So it's gotten better, but he's still not a knockdown guy. And with O'Coro, last year, his freshman year at Auburn, he would pass up open jumpers. he'd pass up open jumpers, Chris. Do you like him better than I loved Chuma

last year? The kid that Orlando took that bust his ACL. I loved him. The Auburn kid. Yeah, man, I mean, people forget about him. Yeah, no. That's why I told you I think they're going to trade Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon is another guy that, you know,

I feel like this has been reported already, but Orlando is having conversations of things about trading him. They can't afford to pay. I remember I told you a couple weeks ago, it's math. If Fornier's picking up, his option. You ain't got a choice on that. So now what? Now I'm paying both of them? No, I can't. I can't. We'll see what happens there with Fornier, too. I mean, there could be a lot of movement

with Orlando. But with Okoro, I mean, I love Darren Gordon too. I love Justice Winslow. I have a thing apparently for for players who can clearly defend at a high level, but have questions about their jumpers. And that's why with Okoro, I have him 10th on my board. I think he's going to stay in that 10th spot in the update. I love saying that. No, because I think I was thinking about this the other day. There's a couple of things. Dremond and obviously that we went through a phase where people were like, ooh, he could be the next Dremont.

And then everybody realized like, yo, you can't be the next Dremont. Dremont is a unicorn like other guys are unicorns in the sense that you're not finding a guy that is that height with that wingspan that rebounds, passes, dribbles, shoot, everything that he does and get facilitated off. and be a perfect piece to play outside of start. Like everybody was searching like, oh, you could try to be like that. Like, it was so unfair to so many kids. But I have, I was having this.

It's not a thesis. It was a thought that Kauai, and the thesis was that Kauai Leonard ruined this for so many guys. So many guys that are never going to be good offensively. He ruined it because he made you believe that the elite defensive guy, You could one day look up and he could score like Michael Jordan in the freaking playoffs. And it's like if we just, if we just fix him, right? And there's part of me that sits there and goes like, all right, how many guys

has that actually been the case with beside him, right? The guy that was offensively not, certainly not polished, but also like it was going to take a lot of work. And people just said, okay, it's going to take a lot of work. but if it works and like it has with him but it hasn't with a lot of guys with most guys at best they reach like an average level yeah as a shooter and that's why i think with okoro you know when i when i talk to people around the league agents and execs about how this draft could fall you know you know edwards wiseman ball these guys are going to go somewhere in the top six or seven you know all of them i mean like maybe top three or four abdi is going to go somewhere in there top and's

going to go somewhere in there. Halliburton's going to go somewhere in there. And O'Kongwu probably will too. That's seven guys. And where do guys like a Killian Hayes go? Where does somebody like an Isaac O'Coro go? And I didn't even mention Patrick Williams, who's another variable to throw in there too. There's questions with O'Coro maybe falling to the back of the lottery. And this is somebody who people, including me, projected him at one point to Cleveland at five or even Chicago at four. And now maybe he falls out of the top 10. And like if you're a team like San Antonio, I mentioned they like Jada McDaniels. I mentioned that they like Patrick Williams, who Williams probably isn't going to be

there. I believe they like Sadiq Bay 2 at that 11 spot. If you're San Antonio, can you work the same magic with Isaac O'Coro they did with Kauai? There's got to be some appeal because of what he brings to you on defense, what he brings to you with his character and his work ethic, what he brings to you as a decision maker. He understands his game. He doesn't make dumb decisions on the floor. He's smart player, really the only concern is what level does his jump shot reach. And that's a big question mark for any player in any position in today's league. Yeah. Let me ask you about a kid that you wrote about this week and a very good piece about

Tyrell Terry out of Stanford. It seems to me that you were a guy that liked his game. You didn't have any connection to Tyrell Terry. You'd never talk to Tyrell Terry ever in your life, right? until you were getting ready to do this profile about him because you were intrigued by watching and play. And then you talk to him and I sense just by talking to you off the air too, you fell even more in love with him once you talk to the kid.

Absolutely. And that's what teams have done as well. I fell in love with him more after talking to him because it's sort of like what you mentioned with the stuff about personality and those variables bringing in a guy to your team. where you want somebody who's low maintenance, you want somebody who plays their role and accepts their role and plays at a high level.

And Tyrol Terry does that. And when I first evaluated him back when I was doing my first initial Big Board, I had him ranked top 10. I had him eighth on my board. He still eighth on my board at this point. But when that Big Board dropped, I got more texts and more calls from agents,

from executives, from scouts, about my evaluation of him than anybody. And almost every single person except for one said to me, like, he should go back to school or that he should be a second round pick at the stage because he was so light, six foot two, barefoot, 160 pounds after leaving Stanford. But one person, you know, said to me, I feel like this is warranted because he's going to have the ability to put on muscle. The skill is overwhelming. And he has gained 10 pounds of muscle, you know, since the end of the college season with as I detail in the story of 14. thousand calorie a day diet, you know, doing weights and all that stuff. It's improved his vertical. It's improved his athleticism, which is evident in the video. It's evident in the

teams that I've worked him out that I've talked with. With Terry, the shooting ability is the number one skill. And he's somebody who can get you a bucket off screens, off of relocations. He knows how to move without the ball. And he's very good with the ball on his hands too. His ball handling does continue, does need to continue improving. At Stanford, I noted this in my draft guide. He only really took pull-up threes, like just pull-ups. He didn't take a lot of any stepbacks, any side-dribble-threes, the type of shots that you see, like, Tatum takes that side-dribble three all the time.

Hardin, Luca, take that step back. You never saw that from Terry. And when I interviewed him a couple weeks ago, I asked him, I was like, I tend to only see pull-ups from you. like are you working on other moves from three? And he's like, yeah, I'm working on stepbacks. I'm working on side dribbles. I asked him team to send me some video.

I wanted the proof. Yeah. I mean, the shot looks good. Obviously, it's in an open gym, but the handle looks better. It looks tighter, it looks lower. The footwork looks good, which he's always had good footwork. And so, you know, you package the shooting and the scoring skill together with somebody who's a really smart playmaker who plays hard on defense despite the fact he's under size,

who's like an awesome kid. He's just a great. great kid. Like that's somebody I'd want to bet on to maximize whatever he's going to be. Is that a star player? Maybe I think with that ability to create and to score and to create plays for others, I think there is star potential there for sure. But at worst, I think he's going to be a really good player who impacts winning for

your team and provides a spark for you. And is that a good player to have in the locker room? So for me, like Terry is undoubtedly a top 10 pick. I wouldn't be shocked if he goes. late lottery. I know there's teams that are digging around, you know, doing their due diligence, perhaps with him. But whether he goes in the teens or whether he goes low 20s, to me, he's going to end up being one of the steals of the draft. All right. We are not far away. In fact, it'll be a week from tomorrow when there is the upcoming NBA draft. We'll talk more about

the NBA draft with Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks on Friday. And surely with that moratorium ending, there's going to be a ton of free agency and trade news. that we will get to coming up this Friday also. Kevin, I'll talk to you then. It's got to be a fun next week. Man, yeah. Thanks to producer, Sasha, as always, and we will talk to you on Friday.