The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Draft: Trade for a Vet or Keep the Pick? Plus, Jamal Murray on His First Championship | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos are joined by Danny Chau to discuss whether a handful of teams near the top of the draft should keep or trade their picks. They talk about which teams are in a realistic position to trade for a veteran or whether they should stay put and what prospects would fit best. After that, Wos talks to NBA champion and Denver Nuggets guard Jamal Murray about his time in the bubble, coming back from his ACL injury, playing with Nikola Jokic, and much more (1:10:34). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guests: Danny Chau and Jamal Murray Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Ryan Rosillo. I'm the host of the Ryan Risslo podcast at The Ringer. We are a sports show, but we do it a little differently because we want to cut through all of the nonsense and try to figure out what's really happening and give you those bigger picture observations. Do a lot of NFL, a lot of NBA, and of course, college football. Also have a great guest lineup, a lot of athletes, front office guys. And even we do some actors and writers from famous TV shows and movies, plus our life advice segment at the end of every show. So make sure you follow the Ryan Risslo show on Spotify. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Waz, but we have a special guest coming back to us after traipsing through the Canadian leagues forged in the fire of the overseas scene. He is back, Danny Chow.

Canadian wildfires. Yes, exactly. Yeah, happy to be back. Hello, old friends. Yeah, a lot has changed, Danny, including the fact that there are many, many people on this podcast now. But you were kind of an OG. You did the ground level, entry level edition of group chats.

Yeah, yeah. No, I was basically the fill in anytime, you know, one of, I don't know. You had like a rotating list of like five people, like, just constantly on the show. So I was like, yeah, sure, I'll pop in. Well, we've locked down the rotation, I feel like. We have a stranglehold at this point. Me and Waz have jumped in. But this is, I feel like, and if you love something set at free moment for us with Danny,

he's come back to us, blogging about Victor Web and Yama, downloading us on the prospects in this draft. You know, we've been waiting all year. You know, we've been eating tape and mock drafting and debating and remock drafting for this moment to learn who is even in this draft class. And Danny, I really need your help. I mean, it's funny. You say that because this is actually my favorite time of the year because now that the season's over, you know, all the high-level basketball is.

and exhausted. I can freely embrace my insecurities and I can tell you that I don't know ball. I straight up don't know ball. But, you know, I can watch the footage of a prospect and tell you how that player makes me feel. And there's no right or wrong answer there. You know, it's completely liberating. It's the best time of the year. Well, Waz in particular, is kind of offended because he has been grinding tape for months for this very moment. So you're just going to have to get over his pretensions. I've been grinding tape for a few hours of Victor Wimbignama taking the subway, New York City subway. He did that gimmick.

He was flanked by like trillions of security, but I was like, man, thank God this guy's about to be rich as hell and didn't grow up in New York. Because there's no way you could ask that dude to hop a subway every day. That would be insane, dude. It just made me think of how, like, Mo Bamba did it. It's a right of passage, I think, for bigs of a certain size. But in the vein of how process. make us feel. How did it make you guys feel that Victor Webminyama on the Old Man in the Three podcast said that Attack of the Clones is one of the greatest Star Wars movies? Because I know

how it made me feel and I have doubts. I have more doubt this morning that I've ever had in Victor Webbenyama. Shades of, I think it was this time last year, E.J. Liddell, now of the Pelicans, said that Ant Man in the Wasp was the best Marvel movie ever made, end up immediately sliding, I think, into the second round. So I'm worried about our guy Victor's stock. That's all I'm saying. Listen. Is this worse than the Celtics coach watching the town? Yes.

Four or five times a week? Wow. It's worse. It's worse. It's worse. It's worse. The one thing we know here on this podcast is that young people know nothing. They cannot contribute very much of anything to society.

So I give Victor the benefit of it out here. He probably hasn't been exposed to the type of high-level culture that both Rob and potentially my other co-hosts on this podcast have, you know? I guess Victor Wemanniama come on the big picture. Like, I don't know. We'll work something out. There you. We could do some classic French films for him.

That's more of his lane. All right. So we are going to do a schick that we typically do around this time, as you could probably guess from some of the powering around here. The three regulars on this podcast know nothing about the. draft. I know the names. I know what people are telling me about these prospects, which is why we bring on our friend Danny, not only to reunite, but also to inform us of some of the necessary info we're going to need going into Thursday's draft. The stick here is we're going to go through

some of the teams that could either trade the pick for a veteran player, which it seems like some of the teams at the top of the draft, more so than usual, are in that mix, or if they should keep the pick and if they should keep the pick, who should they take? And I think, think the conversation here starts at number two with the Charlotte Hornets. It seems like things are headed toward the Brandon Miller zone, Danny, to the point where I guess Mitch Cupsack on a podcast, or no, on a press conference today said that Michael Jordan is going to be involved in this pick. It sounds like he is enamored with Miller. Does Miller, to you, seem like the clear-cut guy they should take? And if so, can you tell us anything about this guy?

I mean, if Jordan is making the final call, that is definitely a sign that the Hornets are thinking about picking Brandon Miller because Jordan has always loved that Blue Chip NCAA prospect. You know, from 2012 to 2015, they drafted Michael Kid Gilchrist, Cody Zeller, Noah Vonle, and Frank Kaminsky in straight seasons. And they're still recovering from that. Brandon Miller, like, there's a lot to love there. He's 6-9, 220, out of Alabama. I had one of the most productive seasons in the country. Definitely the best freshman. The big thing with him was that he was an incredible three-point shooter.

And he used that to kind of display a little bit more of his game, a little bit more of his off-the-dribble game. He had really good vision. And obviously with that size, you know, He's going to be able to hang on defense. I think the big thing with him is that he doesn't really have that kind of pop, that burst that you're looking for in, you know, the ideal modern NBA wing. I kind of compare his ability to finish, his first step, his last step.

It reminds you of R.J. Barrett, who has had his ups and downs finishing. And I don't know, R.J. Barrett as, you know, the, the, the, number two pick. How does that sound you? I mean a sweet shooting, RJ Barrett. That does sound a bit enticing. Yeah, that does sound better. That sounds pretty delicious, actually. And to Justin's question of whether Charlotte should keep or trade the pick to bring in some proven vets, no, Charlotte, you're not in proven vet mode. You are in find young cheap talent mode, try to develop them and build a well-rounded roster. Like the idea that they would move on from the potential of drafting this guy or scoot

or anyone else so that they can pursue 39 wins next season seems insane to me. So yeah, they should absolutely be making this pick. And I think it should be Brandon Miller, honestly. Everybody loved Jabari Smith last year. And I watched Brandon Miller a few times in the SEC tournament. I was like, well, this is Jabari Smith. he had feel and fluidity and actually looked like a real hooper. So I'm into the pig.

I mean, yeah, they are not in veteran mode. They are in RJ Barrett with a sweet shoot sweet jumper mode. Like that is the kind of talent they should be looking to acquire caveats in all. Don't overcomplicate it, I think, if you're Charlotte. Like you are in this stage for a reason. I think lamella ball is a flexible enough prospect where you can pair lots of different players with him, whether it's Miller, whether it's scoot, whoever ends up being in the spot. I just, I'm, I'm so worried about the Hornets, especially with new ownership, trying to accelerate the timeline.

And especially if they end up trading this pick, man, if they trade this pick for like a Brandon Ingram, like a good, often injured, almost all-star level player. Bring him home. No, do not bring him home. It would be a total disaster. Like, they really need to take this pick no matter what your questions may be about Scooter Brandon. Well, I think Lamello is an interesting discussion point because you are basically asking yourself if you're the Hornets at this point, if you're Jordan or some of these other tech bros who are going to come in and clean up the joint. Well, venture capital, they're not tech bros. They're more like hedge fun guys.

Yeah. They're all the same. Slightly less douchey bros, but bros nonetheless. I might push back on that one, but that's a different podcast. So do we think after a couple seasons of Lamello, is Lamello? a guy, like a future all-star, a guy you could build a team around. Do you think next season, if he is in hopefully healthy, like, is this a team that could, I don't know, flirt with an actual playoff spot, not just a play-in spot?

And if not, do you have to step back and reconsider things and maybe starting fresh with a Scoot or someone like that? Rob, where are the Hornets overall? And then maybe, Dan, you can give us your take on Scoot, too. Yeah, Lamello is definitely a guy. whether he can be a definitive 1A superstar. I think he has lots to clear up and clean up in his game before we can definitively answer that kind of question.

But he is a guy. They still have some good veterans on this team, honestly. Like it's easy to gloss over it given the season that they had, but just getting Lamello back healthy will make them a lot more credible, a lot more viable. They're just so shallow. They were so shallow last year. They really need especially young talent,

no matter what you think of the Terry Rozier's and the Gordon Haywards and kind of the supporting cast, they've cobbled together. They were kind of good at the end of the year, Rob, especially my guy, Gordy Hayward. They've absolutely had moments, and honestly, just getting bodies on the floor will help a lot. And if whatever rookie they draft is capable of filling minutes

at even like a Dennis Smith Jr. level, I think they could be cooking with something that will at least get them in the mix. And that's where you're starting. You're saying, can we get in the mix for this season in a way that will appease, you know, the new ownership interest and all that? And can we have someone who can actually build

with Lamello long term and can fit into something cohesive. Yeah, to that point, I am of the opinion that the Hornets should be swinging for the star. And I think Scoot Henderson has a bit more star potential and a more likely star potential outcome than Brandon Miller. Do they fit? I think they do. Scoot Henderson is 6-2.

Apparently he might have grown since then. He's like absolutely ripped. He has a 6-9 wing span. He can definitely play bigger. And he has just a really fiery demeanor, really just intense kind of psycho-competitiveness that you're not necessarily getting from like a head in the clouds, Lamello, but they could be like a kind of yin and yang there. And I don't know. I think they can work together because Scoot is really good playing off the ball. And Lamello is as well, being, you know, a 40% three-point shooter.

They kind of balance each other out and there's enough size there. where I don't think you should be concerned with, oh, do they fit positionally? This is a time to draft the guy you think can be a star. Yeah, and to the lamello point, once again, he reminds me in this situation of where the sons were with Devin Booker at a certain point, where people had what I think are legitimate questions about whether this guy was a winning type of player. Obviously, it had shown flashes of what kind of talent he had and what kind of a player he might maybe eventually be.

And look, I like Lamello. I don't think he's ever going to be as good as Devin Booker is right now. I'm just saying at this point in Booker's career, at the Mello point, people had questions about him. And guess what? He still got extended. They still ended up drafting guys like Bridges and Aiton to sort of fill out the roster. But I think, you know, you should go with who you think is the most talented, as Danny mentioned.

And I think Lamello has proven enough that, you know, he's young enough that he could grow with the new guys that come onto the roster. Then I think positionally with his size, you know, the guy passed dribbles and shoots and is a pretty big wing. So I don't think positionally it's like, oh, we're stuck with these, you know, like size sort of repetitive players. Yeah, the one thing I will say is if the Hornets are really considering both players equally, I would consider trading down to three and trying to get into whatever the Blazers is trying to do. You know, get a few extra assets

for their troubles. But, you know, that really depends on how the Blazers end up shaking things out. Sure. Does the calculus change for you guys at all if it's more of a Zion rather than an Ingram, Rob. Does that make it worse or better?

I'm not sure. I don't think the Hornets are in a position to bet on a player like Zion. I think... You can always go home, though. Him too. Everyone can always go home, apparently. North Carolina is not South Carolina.

I know they got the same Carolina... Well, I was thinking more Duke, but... Oh, Duke. Okay, sure. Yeah, I guess. They're all the Carolinas to me, okay? Yeah. I think I would be very worried. Look, if you're a team like Charlotte,

given their market considerations, given what that franchise has been, given what they ultimately need to do and where they need to be going, you cannot be drafting players or trading for players with that significant an injury history.

You just can't do it right now. And I say that in part because you want to be good as soon as possible. I also say it because Lamello Ball, for as much as the Hornets can try to do to appease him, is a flight risk ultimately.

Like you want to do enough to convince him to stay. And trading for a potential co-star who never plays is probably not the way to do that. Was you seem put down on Zion experience. I just think

with Zion specifically, there's the injury stuff. And then again, his lack of professionalism, accountability, he just has not behaved like a professional adult in his career. And the idea that you're going to send him to Charlotte and what's going on there culturally, like they don't have a culture. There's nobody to sort of set the standard there. And then, of course, Mike is, I mean, Mike is Mike. Let's just put it like that.

he's going to retain some of his Charlotte Hornet shares, right? Like he's not going to completely be out of the picture. But I don't know how you could expect Mike who didn't want to work as an owner in the first place to like now that he's got way less stakes involved to actually do the mentoring or accountability stuff that we see, say, in a place like Miami. I just don't understand why you would want to do that. Yeah, the number two pick for Zion, I don't really see the number three pick for Zion. I could be convinced, I think, just because of the difference in circumstance.

Okay, so that brings us to the Blazers, who are the big movers and shakers going into the draft on Thursday. Danny, the mock has them on the ringer, has them taking Scoot. Do you feel like either Miller or Scoot makes more sense based on where they are right now and which prospect maybe makes more sense if they were to rebuild and start fresh with Shaden Sharp as kind of the co-pilot for this other. pick. Yeah, like I said, with the Hornets, like if you're making a star bet, I would make it on scoot. If you're trying to keep it just so that no other team can have the third pick, yeah,

maybe Brandon Miller, he definitely fits the type of player that they've been searching for for the past like six years, just like a tall wing guy who can do a bit more than just three and D. But yeah, no, I'm definitely going scoot. And I'm fingers crossed. They trade to the Raptors. Okay. Just thumb on the scale a little bit there from Danny.

Come on. So just so we could get back up to speed, right, as far as where Portland is. There was the whole hand-wringing after Dane, after the season where Dane, the coach, Chauncey Billups, the GM were all allegedly in alignment that the Trailblazers need to bring in veteran talent to win immediately. next year, right? There's that. They asked Dame Lillard to sit

at the end of the season, and they told him. This is not like conjection. They told Dame Lillard, we're doing this so that we can get a better draft pick so that we can bring better players in. Right? That's what they told Dame Lillard.

Then I was listening to my man Brian Winhorse over at the Hoop Collective, shouts to Wendy. And he was like, I talk to Dame's people. I talk to the Portland Trailblazers people. And there's this idea of quote unquote threading the needle, meaning you get to have your cake and eat it to the two tracks like the Warriors

where you're young, but you're getting vets too. And according to Wendy, Dame is wholly uninterested in that. And so, yeah, like, I think if they take this kid, whichever kid, and keep it, Like, we're talking about the Dane Lillard sweepstakes coming up. Like, that's just plainly clear. And I thought, and I said it at the time here on group chat, that this is where this thing is going, right? And also, I know the Charlotte stuff is real. That's 100% real.

They want Scoot really badly. Also, the stuff about them, Zion being potential trade fodder. That's real. They've soured on that dude, like, a lot. then yes, a lot of it does have to do with this professionalism. And so I think the draft really starts with this pick. If the Blazers make this pick and keep this pick, Dane Lillard is gone.

It's over. I love the way all that folds into each other, too, in terms of, you're right, coming out of the gate, Dame and Chauncey and Joe Krona have to express an alignment that we're trying to get veterans in here or trying to get better players. But in doing so in expressing that, they depress the trade value for the number three pick because everyone knows what they're trying to do,

which means they have to then either at that level or like the assistant GM level or the staffer level, put the whispers out there that, oh, actually, we might actually take the number three pick just to get the offers back up, which then forces people like Wendy to go to Dame's representatives and say, like, what would you think if this happens

and entertain the thought of like, are we not in the kind of alignment that we thought we are? And it's just the snake eating its own tail and Damian Lillard is either the head of the snake or the tail or the body or the mouse that the snake ate. I don't even know anymore. But we're just in this mess of a place with Portland in what is probably like the most consequential pick or consequential moment in this franchise is history, honestly, post at least

Greg Oden, maybe post like Samboat, like Sambole, I don't even know how far you want to go back. This is a huge franchise turning point, one way or the other. in a weird way getting the third pick almost like resign them to losing dame because if you're at four or five optically passing up on like an amend thompson or one of these other prospects that aren't as high profile no one's really going to bat an eye right but the fact that you could draft scute henderson this guy who is now the forefront of a forthcoming documentary from the ring of films and all this other stuff he's been in the public eye he's going toe to toe with victor webbing yama not

just drafting that guy and going forward and rebuilding with him, I think like it very clearly is setting up this public dynamic. And I also feel like since then, you've almost seen both sides trying as much as possible to not be the bad guy for what seems to be an inevitable outcome, which is that this is going to be a divorce. The point where I feel like I see a new rumor every day basically, basically, no, no, no, we really want to make this work. We want to make it work. But there's no way, and I think you guys would agree. And Danny, I'm curious what you think. Like, there's no way this works, right?

With Eskoo, or a Miller and a Dane. It's just incredible that the Blazers have found themselves in this position. They have the number three pick. This should be a position of leverage. This is a great pick. But this entire ordeal has kind of been framed as like this moral dilemma. You know, do you do right by the one star who has never turned his back on you? And what does that even look like?

And it seems like every possible outcome is just going to be underwhelming. So this is the thing that I think complicates things. And I think people have a hard time juggling all of these thoughts in their heads at the same time. It's like there's this idea that disgruntal superstar X is the same as Z is the same as Y. And that's not the case. Every disgruntal star is not created equally. Dame Lillard is not the same as Bradley Biel. Not only are they different caliber of players,

we're talking about Dame Lillard has made his franchise a lot of money. They would not be selling tickets in that town with this mediocre-ass squad if they didn't have Dame Lillard on the team. So there's that level of equity of just like, yo, I've made you guys a lot of money. And part two, like if you look at a place like Atlanta, where they're willing to swing for the fences for the likes of Trey Young

and Dame has to look at Portland and their ownership and management like, y'all can't do for me what Atlanta's willing to do for Trey Young? That's fucking crazy when you really think about it. When you think of the caliber of player and the actual accomplishments, right?

And so that's what I think is complicating this stuff. It's like, yeah, I get it. Donovan Mitchell, just the... It feels like the next in the line of secession of disgruntled stars, but it's not. This is actually quite different.

Well, especially because he wants a reason to stay, ultimately. And that's why if they do trade the pick, and we can investigate what the market for that pick might actually be in terms of what it can get back, if you get any kind of star talent back in a way where you can also bring back Jeremy Grant, you can have the bones of a reasonable team, like Portland sandbagged all the way down the stretch of last season

in a way that makes their record a little bit deceptive, they would be at least in the mix with Dame and another star and Grant and a reasonable veteran corps. That's a viable team. And in a way where I think the math is different for Portland than other places. You want to take that kind of gamble

and reward this kind of patience from a player like Dame. Yeah. I think the question is which star can they get for that pick? Because I feel like I have heard literally every NBA superstar attached to that pick, including most recently Zion Williamson, who we just talked about.

Bam, out of bio, that's one of the hot rumors. Pascal Seacum, O.G. and Anobi, pretty much every Toronto Raptor since their inception in what, 1997? Paul George today as well. Prime LeBron James. Magic and bird fuse together like Frankenstein's monster. And also an AI version of Wilts Chamberlain with the horniness turned down. Wow.

Which of those was excite you the most? Is it the, is it the, is it Will? So another person you got to throw in there. So the clip is trying to trade Paul George. That's like, that's not just like, oh, it's like a superstar that you or a star or whatever that you can get. That's a thing. We're getting some waz bombs today.

I didn't want to call this out. That's happening. That's happening. The Timberwolves are trying to trade Carl Anthony Towns. Y'all know where I'm at with that. And to me, that's not really breaking news. We had my man, John Krasinski on the podcast. This was like December, he was like, look, if this don't work in Minnesota,

the first domino to fall is going to be Carl Towns. And I think some of his erratic behavior on podcast is like, I think he knows the writing. The writing is on the wall. And so, yeah, and Zion Williamson. And, I mean, I think the best player when they're playing of all the people, and Justin mentioned is Zion but out of all of the guys mentioned

OG Pascal Paul George Paul George for sure he's a guy who I've seen in the playoffs I've seen this guy play as well as LeBron James in the playoff series before you know like I can't say that about any of these

other cats is a Paul George Dame team up a little bit too much like the villain and the hero joining forces for the sequel situation you should love that that's fair he was running from the ground How damn, Uncle Gotti ran from the grind. That's not the plot of attack of the clones. Okay.

I don't think I've actually seen it. I think the problem with George and, of course, with Zion is can you trade this precious number three pick and then get a guy who might not play for you? Because you are going all in in the immediate. And if Paul George is going to play 50 games, is Zion's going to play maybe 29. Like, that doesn't help you either. So I do think you need some sort of cost certainty in addition to just a. an adult basketball player who can play well. There's also the thing where the clippers

to get Paul George traded Shea, five first round picks, two swaps, and Danilo Gallinari. And, you know, we can debate that to death as much as we want, but like, would they even be willing to take a return that is like the number three pick and Anthony Simons? Like, is that acceptable given what they paid in the first place?

Rob is four years later. You better be. The dude is four years older. I look, you want to explain some cost fallacy to Steve Balmer? Like, I don't know that that's, that conversation's going where you think it is. Also, you gave up all of that to get Paul George and Kauai Leonard. Like, that's the part that like, Juan Leonard was literally holding a gap to their head. It was like, we're not doing this unless you get Paul George. So like, I think the timing is relevant as well because they do have player options for not next season, but the season after.

And so if you're trying to get ahead of that, if you're trying to get VALZEGELF. value for them for a season upcoming where do we even know if quai's going to play in this one? And if he might be able to play, will he play in like as opposed to dragging this out as he has in years past? So Danny, I almost wonder as a L.A. native, your sort of pseudo-clipper fandom will just pretend that that's a thing. Do you think that this is a good time to eject on the Kauai and Paul George, like just era or are they

like committed to this and they have to see it through if only because they have 90 other players making like 20 million dollars a year that they have to then figure out what to do with. Speaking as a fan I would I just need to see it happen at least once. You know where everyone is aligned

like give me that kumbaya moment. Everyone has you know played 72 games together. I want to see the full range of their chemistry. I personally wouldn't do it. And honestly, it's like, if you're the Blazers, they needed the Paul George of like six years ago. They needed this guy for longer than the ringer has been in existence.

Does anybody like anyone else other than George? Do any of these names, Rob, jump out to you? Like, do you think Zion is worth? the gamble. Do you think one of the the raptors that are in every trade rumor would make sense just if only to shore up a defense that has needed it for what, probably longer than the ringer has been in existence? I don't think the Raptors guys are enough, but Zion, I would really think about it. And bam, look, if I can get Bam for the third pick, I'm getting a cabana set up for Scoot Henderson down there. I'm connecting him with a realtor on South Beach. Like, I'm, I'm down for

If the heat can stay on the line for that kind of thing. I doubt that Miami would. It just doesn't really align with where they are as a team or what they should be interested in. But Bamatabio would be transformative, I think, for the Blazers. Zion, look, the best case version of a Zion trade for Portland is one of the all-time, like, trade steals, right? He comes in to Nike's backyard learning under the tutelage of, like, say what you will about Dame, a legitimately great professional.

and great leader for a franchise that desperately needs him, a guy who is so clearly a top 10 level talent that everyone in the league is like tripping over themselves to try to get into these trade conversations when he hasn't even played very much basketball yet. The best version of that trade is so, so amazing an outcome, I would absolutely entertain it and probably make it. Yeah, there's a fit too there with Dane and Zion.

I think on the court, like you trying to send two at Dame on a Zion and Dame pick and roll. That's fucking curtains, y'all. So that's a beautiful on-court fit. But again, it must be said, this off-court Zion stuff is

real and people are very concerned about it. To find a point. The Blazers were the third worst defense in the NBA. And putting Dame and Zion together is maybe the biggest white flag you can wave on defense. Oh, it's not great.

It's not great in that regard. Not great. But I'm willing to lean into it if that's the kind of talent we're playing with. That's the thing is like, I don't mind being kind of a one-sided team if we're talking about absolutely groundbreaking elite talent. And that's what Zion is ultimately. And it's the best version and actualization of the sort of two-track model that so many teams try to figure out, where you have your elder superstar and Dame, your younger potential superstar in Zion. on if those talents fuse in a cohesive way that's sustainable,

and that's a big asterisk on sustainable, it's just, it's franchise changing. And I'm willing to take that gamble if I'm Portland, just because what else you got going on? Like, I mean, I'm just really not liking any of the other options on the board.

And to shoehorn my Denver nuggets into this conversation for absolutely no other reason but for the fact that they're my nuggets in Jamal Murray interview coming soon, right after this. Just three years ago, if people would have been like, how do fuck are you supposed to defend

with Yokic, Porter, and Jamal Murray, people would have said that's a legitimate concern. I just find that the best players, they make themselves useful on defense in the biggest games. We saw all three of those guys play at levels of defense when they played in the most important games

they found it within them to be like passable defenders, you know? The other weird rink of this Portland situation is in order to make the math work in order to trade for a BAM or someone else, you're going to need to trade Anthony Simons. And obviously, Simons

isn't a great fit next to the day, and we've seen that. How they end up with scoring small guards in abundance is beyond me. It's the point where I almost want to see Scoot with Simons and Lillard just to continue the legacy, almost like in a succession of a Star Wars movie. But like, you have to

get rid of Simons. Yeah, I know, I'm just throwing this against the wall this point. Let's say you have to get rid of Sharp. So let's say you're even Lillard, Grant, and Bam, which pretty intriguing three right there, defense finally and just like flexibility and all the other stuff you want to see around Dame. What else do you have for this forthcoming season? Like, it's going to be like Trendin Watford playing significant minutes for this team. It's going to be Yusuf Nurkich playing the two effectively because you just don't have it. And so like if you're trying to take advantage of the immediate, like, you're,

your media is going to be highly complicated if you do swing a trade for this. And so, like, I guess we're just doubling down on the thing we keep saying, but like, this doesn't make sense. If you're looking at the actual components of it, there's no way in the world that they could trade for a star and still be good. And so Trenton Watford can play, and I will, I will buy no slander on this podcast. Yeah. And they have a John Butler, 7-2 movement shooter.

Look, he's there. He is there, yes, he's employed. Quickly, though, if the Dame Sweet stakes does kick off, which I assume it probably will in the next weeks, was, do you have any, like, favorites? Is it Miami? Is it Brooklyn? Do any of these teams, like, jump out to you as like,

let's get Dame there because that would be dope? Um, not at the moment. I don't, I think, Denver. New York, Denver, that would be sweet. But Jamal Murray staying put. Um, New York, I think he had been linked.

to the Knicks for so freaking long, but that, that just doesn't make sense with what Jalen Brunson has become. I think the Miami thing could absolutely work. To me, that's the one that makes the most sense at the moment, but nothing immediately jumps out at me. I know I've heard some whispers that Phoenix, well, not Phoenix, but Isaiah Thomas as a Phoenix proxy, He might have, you know, don't some overtures at Dame to do that. By the way, Isaiah Thomas, like, Chris Paul was not just needling that dude.

Like, that's a thing that's happening. Isaiah Thomas is out here reckless. And because he's not an official employee of the team, he can borderline tamper whatever the fuck he wants, which is just like, okay, cool. But I think, you know, I think Phoenix would have been something that made kind of some sense, maybe, but that's obviously done now.

But yeah, Miami's feels like the only team where organizationally, it feels like a fit as far as their culture, drink at home, and the temperament. And I think their mentality of, we want to win tomorrow. Dane fits into what they're trying to do over there. We need more like NBA team ambassadors

in the Isaiah Thomas slash Drake slash like Dwayne Booster. Yes, yeah, we do. Just some liaison. under the table. Like, let's just connect people. Absolutely. I will say this, like the Isaiah stuff notwithstanding,

I love what's happening in Phoenix, if only because it is messy in the way that we just don't typically see in the NBA anymore. Like the dumb GM summits that Bill used to do like 10 years ago or whatever. Like, I feel like everyone's at the very least professionalized it,

so they're at least like hiding that stuff. The sons are on front street basically being like, we don't fucking care. Just give us all the stars. We might actually play four players at a time and do the weird Kings thing where they're like cherry picking. Like, we'll do that too. But like I'm all for it. This is like now my favorite team in the league.

And also so people understand like the Bradley Bill thing. I mean the Bradley Bill thing didn't happen in Miami because Miami's waiting on damn. Yeah. Like Bradley Bill wanted to go to Miami was at the top of the list. And Miami was like, bro, we're not rushing into fucking Bradley Bill. Like, we're not rushing into $250 million for, you know, a guy who, you know, he's a nice volume score or whatever, possessions, innings, eater guy, but like, let's be real. He's not on the level of Dame Lillard.

So that's something to keep your eye on. Like, they didn't do that deal because they want to see what happens with Dane. I mean, that's something to keep in mind with whether we're talking about Dame and where he moves or, you know, potential Paul George trade. Like, Paul George is owed $46 million. this season. If he and Dame end up on the same roster, if he ends up in Portland,

like that is a lot tied up in those two guys when Paul George has the injury history that he has. And frankly, now so does Damien Lillard. Right. And Jeremy Grant now has leverage and you're going to be paying through the teeth and you have to wonder, we didn't even mention the ownership situation. It seems like they want to keep Dame probably in some small part in order

to keep the jacking the price on our friend Phil Knight there. But man, it's a total mess. Why don't we move along here just because we have to hit some of these other teams. The Houston Rockets at four, probably in the similar boat as the Hornets, where it seems like they want to be better, but I don't actually see how it happens, especially since all the indications are that Hardin might go back to Philly. Danny, we have Amend Thompson in the mock. Is that the guy that you think is a fit there? Are you a Thompson fan, I guess, or would you rather them go a different direction? Amin Thompson fucking rule.

Are you more Thompson than Miller? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have Amman higher than Miller. He's just someone who I don't think we've ever seen before. His level of athleticism, I've tried to explain this and I did on KOC's draft pod yesterday. Here's how I would describe him. Imagine Ricky Rubio in young Sean Marion's body. I'm already sold. And you put Sean Marion's body on, like, ice skates, and you allow him to jump in the air with a jetpack. Like, he moves in a way that I have never seen before. And he's 6, 7, 2.20. He throws passes that, like, no person should ever attempt, and they work.

He just can't shoot. He just can't shoot at all. But he's a walking paint touch. And on a team, like the Rockets, where they have a bunch of just real athletic maniacs and just a lot of actually like pretty good shooting. I think it's, I think it's a match made in heaven. Man,

when Houston gets again, one guy who can consistently draw and kick. Like the, like, you know, for everything, all of our problems with Jalen Green, like his decision making over the years

and how he slots in as like a primary ball handler man, if he is your second side guy exploding against the defense, that is dangerous as hell. Like they, they are in such need of a player like that to the point. that I don't even know that there's any conversation to be had about them trading this pick.

I don't know what they would trade it for. They would be reasonable. I don't want any part of drinking that Kool-Aid, whether you have James Hardin or not. I really think that a young driving prospect is so critical to every other player they have, their development, that they cannot pass that up right now. Yeah, I'm conflicted a little bit because I think Houston has one NBA basketball, mind of their young core and that Schengun

everybody else is out there just doing stuff and so like you know I would I think Schengun is kind of doing stuff too for being honest but I think he has an idea of what a winning possession looks like

on offense maybe like he has a concept of it in the finals come on man We're not doing this. But sometimes you wonder if a team has sort of reached their max of young, inexperienced guys. At the same time, I'm not sold on Jabari Smith. You know, like, to me, he's not the guy.

I mean, some people, a lot of people have their questions about Jalen Green. And I think it's legitimate. You can't be like, oh, I have the guys, my young core already so I can go out and get this veteran help. They should definitely be making this pick and I think they should be shooting for the moon, honestly. So I tend to agree with Danny. If this guy is a superb athlete,

like elite athlete even on the NBA level, he's the kind of guy that should be bringing in because Jalen Greene as much as I love him, he hasn't shown what Aunt Edwards did very early on in his career where everybody's just like, all right, this is the dude to build around. So yeah, they should be making this pick and they should be going for upside for sure. Yeah, I think part of the discussion of trading it

is driven by the fact that they owe a top four projected pick as a result of the Russ and CP trade, both of whom have been on like 17s since that said trade. The one name that you are hearing now, and this is from Mark Stein's substack, would be Paul George. If George is in play, is he worth giving up on this pick?

I personally don't think it makes any sense, but George would at the very least be intriguing to me as opposed to some of these other mid-tier guys, which I don't think really move the needle for them. Is the idea of bringing in Paul George and James Hardin? Or is it kind of an either-or proposition? My understanding of reading Mark Substack is that it would be just George because all indications are that Hardin is now going back to Philly. Yeah, that's a no for me. That makes no sense. And you have cap space, I guess. Like you would have, you could, you could like get Brooke Lopez and some of these other guys

that fill out around. I think part of my issue with any of these like bring in a star, whether it's Hardener George or anybody, like are we just, if we're doing that, are we just turning Jalen Green into Jordan Pool? Like, is Javarri Smith Jr. just like standing around for decoration? Like, what is the point

of these guys? How far off is that conversation? Actually, look, it's, we're going to have to have it at some point, but you don't want to pigeonhole him into that. Like, you want to be backed into that corner if forced to You want to give him the opportunities to thrive in a different kind of role than playing alongside Kevin Porter, Jr. Right?

Like, let's give him a real chance. Let's get some clarity into what any of these guys are. And that starts with playmaking. Or you mentioned Brooke Lopez. How about using your cab space? Yeah, Brooke Lopez, I don't know, fucking Bruce Brown. Bringing some actual veterans so that your young guys are developing next to competence and not just a bunch of dudes who are. shitting the bed every other game.

Like, how about just do that? Bring competence in. I don't think it needs to be a superstar, but guys that are highly professional, highly motivated, and also allow for the young guys to do their thing. Like, Bruce Brown has proven,

like, yeah, I could play around ball dominance, plug and play, do what I do. I'm high energy. He's positionally, he's very versatile. He's basically playing one through five in the damn, You know what I mean? Like do that type of thing instead of being like, oh, let's get a star in here. But, you know, Tim and Fatita did take out a $300 million loan.

He might be worried about selling tickets and that type of thing. And so maybe they do need a Paul George in there. I can't believe you're trying to break up your Denver Nuggets just like that. You know, shaking Bruce E. You're just shipping him off. Look, man, Bruce Brown came to the Nuggets to do exactly what he's done. Play great in the playoffs. leave and get a bag.

That's what he set out to do. We've done nine of these podcasts. Let's move along. I'm going to skip the Troy in Orlando at five and six only because they have uddles of cap space and they kind of fall into the rockets and Hornet's territory. It doesn't make sense to trade for a bet. They've got some good stuff going there. Just follow through.

The Pacers in particular are interesting to me at seven in part because they do kind of have the rough outline of what the team probably will be. Halliburton was awesome last year, although it got a little bit of her. Turner's back. Yet again and potentially yet again on that trade block. We'll see. But Danny, KOC has Jarris Walker. Am I saying that right? Yeah. Yep. Great. From Houston, how do you feel about him in indie first and foremost? Yeah, I think that would be a really great pick. He's very, very talented.

He's built like Beef Stewart. So he's like 6-8, 250. He's huge. But he's much, much lighter on his feet kind of moves a bit more like a Paul Millsap. And he's very, very versatile on defense. You can kind of play him in every coverage. He's been able to like, yeah, guard on the perimeter, guard around the paint. Yeah, I just think the team needs a lot of like long-term defensive upside to pair with Miles Turner and to kind of succeed Miles Turner once he eventually gets traded, probably. So yeah, I think this would be a really solid pick for them.

this is what's wonderful and dangerous about Danny's return to the ringer is like all you need to say is this guy moves like Paul Millsap and I'm fucking sold I'm so in if you were like my scout or my assistant GM I'm like we're trading for the first pick to draft Jaris Walker immediately so that's that's how in I am on that prospect but where are we overall was on on the Pacers do you think like they should slow play this or you think they're ready to be committed to if they were like in the mix before the injury started to set it early in the season. I think they could slow play it.

And to be honest, after the Brad Beal trade, I now have hope and belief that anything is possible. And Miles Turner can also be traded because these guys have been trade candidates for four years. I think Miles Turner is like even more. It's like five years damn there for Miles Turner. So because Bradley Bill finally mercifully has been moved, I think Miles Turner. I think Miles Turner can too and I think yeah they can bring in get whatever they want for him and build slowly

like I don't see any reason to kickstart this thing and to overdrive and move out some draft picks and I think there are teams that could absolutely use Miles Turner's you know abilities because obviously I'm Miles Turner hive till I die sure your your friendly reminder too

that Bradley Beals Wizards and Tyrese Halliburton's Pacers had the same record last season despite the fact that so many Pacers guys were hurt, so many Pacers guys were young. I honestly think they could make a nice little push if whoever they end up drafting can be at least somewhat of an immediate impact player. And I don't mean that in like, oh, they're really jumping off the page.

They're really like a huge part of the team immediately. But even if they can just play credibly, I think this team could be in a pretty nice spot. Yeah, I think they're in an interesting position where they can maybe do both. Like, are they more of a trade back candidate? it, pick up a veteran and still get a younger player in order to round this out. Well, Danny, I'm curious, first of all, with the draft.

Like, is this the type of draft where you could move back, let's say, into the mid-teens, pick up a veteran and still land a good player? Or is there a gap there? Yeah, no, I think there are a lot of players in this draft that are lottery talents. But I think with the Pacers' unique situation, they're at number seven. They're at a position where they can pick someone who falls out of the top five for them. So like we're talking about tiers of talent here. And I don't think the Pacers are at a level where you're getting, you know, like moving back to, you know, 15 and 18 or whatever like that.

I think there are, there are players in the top eight that would really, really benefit playing alongside, you know, all of the core and the Pacers. Well, I guess the counter would be, so the names that they are linked to, which got to be honest, not all that sexy. Tobias Harris, DeAndre Hunter, Dorian Finney Smith. So it would be like a plug and play stretch for defensive type of person. So someone that could

just round out the starting lineup. I could just tell by the face if I could just describe Waz's face right now. I love, I'm a fan of Dorian Finney Smith, especially on the money that he makes. He's way better than DeAndre Hunter and makes half as much as the dude.

Right. And so I think value-wise, the kind of player that he is, I'm all for doing it. But I wonder, maybe it's because of the money. You can say, look, he's signed for a few more years and he's at a beautiful number. It's worth the number six pick. DeAndre Hunter? Hell no. Absolutely not bringing that dude's bloated ass deal in here so he could underachieve on my squad. Like, it's just not happening. I'm making the pick at that point. But I think Finney Smith is such a beautiful contract, man. And he's such a plug-in-play type of player. And he fits any system.

And obviously he's a two-way guy. He plays on both ends. I don't know, man. I would definitely be tempted by Finney Smith. But, yeah, yeah, yeah, DeAndre Hunter, he's got a, yeah, yeah, you stay in Atlanta with that. See, I think Finney Smith kind of fits every system. He can offer something to everybody. But where he's especially good is on teams with next level playmakers, guys who are not just getting him like kind of open threes, but really open threes.

So Luca and now potentially Tyrese Halliburton is that kind of passer. Like is the guy and a guy who can create that sort of space for him. We saw in Brooklyn, you know, it's a small sample size, but just like wasn't able to kind of hit consistently from deep the way you would want a player like him to do. And I would think if I were Indiana, I would have more optimism in him being able to deliver closer to his Dallas numbers in terms of three point. shooting with us than he potentially did with the nets. And so yes, like the Dorian Finney Smith, Tobias Harris, DeAndre Hunter mix is not quite what I thought. Like Brian Winhorse alluded to them being in the market for a quote unquote high level

wing player. I don't think that's quite the market I was thinking of when he said that. But I think Dorian Finney Smith could be a nice fit. For Tobias, I'll give you a second rounder or two for sure. You can't get no first rounders for that. That's insane. Absolutely not. let me throw this out there.

What if it's Jonathan Caminga? Seven two, seven to Jonathan Cominga? Okay. Yeah, I think he's seven, six now. He's bigger than Women Yama. It doesn't totally make sense from Golden State's perspective

because if you're giving up a young guy, you would want to vet back and it'd probably have to be Turner, there'd have to be a third team. But it's like someone that like that with high upside, but a little farther along in the process more interesting to you.

Is he farther along in the process? that's a great question well he just hasn't played is another part he would definitely get the minutes he desperately wants Danny where are you on comminga I'm still not really sure what he is at

at this next level like are we are we to expect him to be like a kind of Gerald Wallace type like he's definitely not getting that shot he doesn't think he's a Gerald Wallace type I think if you're going to trade for Jonathan Cuminga you better be under the impression

that he is a star in hiding in plane in sight because that seems to be what Jonathan Cummina is. That's what he thinks. That's funny because I thought he was going to be like a more roided up Christian Brown. Like why can't he do that at like a way higher quality of course for a real team? You know what I mean? Embrace a role and be a superstar in that role.

That's what I would want for Jonathan Comingga. but he would have to embrace that. And guess what? Superstar role players get paid. Look at McKell Bridges. You know, and shit, he got a freaking, he took a freaking pay cut at what he's making now. And he kind of grew into what we now see him as. But superstar role players can still get paid.

And that should be his mentality. You know, he should want to go to a team that's going to be high achieving where he can get big minutes and star in his. role for said team. So everybody could see him as a player that contributes to high level winning and not just a dude who thinks he's Kobe. Yeah, it would absolutely break my heart,

but the Pacers should really look into trading for OG Ananobee. Mm-hmm. Mm. That would be interesting. I like the flexibility there, too, in terms of what Ananoi would be given the opportunity to do offensively, which I know is something he's been kind of clamoring for and

really pushing for is just like a little more freedom to explore the limits of his game. And I think there's like Miles Turner. Well, I think, well, for one, Miles Turner was allowed more freedom to do that. And I thought really played very well with given, given that opportunity. And I think, oh, gee, he, he's not necessarily a guy who you want. I'm trying to think of the way to say this politely. Exploring off the dribble in like very whimsical ways. Like he is kind of a straight line drive.

You don't want him messing around with the ball too much. But there's room between what he was asked to do in Toronto and what he ultimately wishes he was able to do. And I think within that spectrum, we can find a place of negotiation. We can mediate ourselves to a nice little spot on a team like Indiana where I think there is, there's room to grow, there's opportunity to create. But you know, you're not our lead ball handler necessarily. And that's going to be okay.

I have a question for you guys. because we've heard the rumors that Toronto wanted four first round picks for this dude. And let's just say a team like Memphis was able to be like, we'll offer you two of ours and we got two other ones that aren't ours

and could make that deal. Or two Memphis picks, right? Two future Memphis picks and two picks that say 22 that they're able to cobble together somehow. Is that a better package than a six pick? you know the future Memphis picks I'm just saying if all this turns out to be an elaborate play

to increase the value of the Memphis future pick it worked oh man I'm just saying because I feel like all the crazy Josh shit aside like Memphis is going to be picking if they send you two of their own it's going to be from like 18 to 30 their guys are young and under contract you're not getting six pick out of that package. So like I'm wondering if that four pick package is like, we got to pray on disaster

in Memphis is better than Indy just being like, here's one six pick in the draft. Yeah. Why don't we, why don't we jump to Toronto now? Because we're going to get to Dallas, but since we're already on Toronto, Danny, as a current resident of the Great White

North, like, what the hell is going on there? And maybe more specifically, what do you want to happen? Because it seems like they have all of the possibilities in front of them. They just need to pick a path. Yeah. I think just given the front office's track record, it's, it's a bit foolish of me to be like, yo, I want scoot, give me scoot no matter what, because they, because Maasai has always just preached patience. It was that way when they were getting absolutely stormed by LeBron James throughout the mid, you know, 2010s. And it really kind of feels.

like, you know, the heat have emboldened the team to stay the course because they think last year was just kind of a blip. And it feels like they're kind of just kind of pinning it on Nick Nurse, which is frankly kind of risky. But yeah, I mean, look, if it were me, I would try to trade Pascal and see if that is enough to persuade a frankly kind of teetering, desperate Blazers team. My only, and I think besides as good as anybody at his job in the whole league, like I think, I really think that highly of the guy. But my only problem with patience talks from GMs is that it's extremely self-serving.

So, like, I don't want to hear patience from the GM. I'm cool. Practice and exercise it. But, like, when things go wrong, like, I don't want to hear that shit from the guy who, yeah, you want patience. You want as long as possible to be paid to do the job of winning a freaking championship or bringing a championship caliber of squad to your organization and fans. And so I don't know.

But at the same time, you know, hard resets are very self-serving for GMs too. You know, it's like, oh, this kids got upside. We got to give them time to develop. So I'm curious to see what they do. I don't know that obviously they would have been too smart to do. something stupid like try to get Bradley Bill to come over there. But I wonder if they think they could get in the sweepstakes for one of these major stars or two of them and flip this thing on up. I mean, certainly was a workable formula for them in the past.

And you do wonder if they could talk themselves into something like that. I don't know. Like this is the core of a team that's very interesting that's fun to watch sometimes, maybe not so much last season, but theoretically sometimes. I don't know if there's enough here where even one transformative star completely recontextualizes everything, if that makes sense. They feel like they're more than one big piece away. And maybe that just hinges even more on the development of someone like Scotty Barnes becoming something interesting and different. But they have a lot of work to do in a way that I don't think they should be looking at any kind of short-term solutions necessarily. Yeah.

I just don't see how they could trade a pitch. for Jacob Pertl at the deadline and then potentially lose him half a season later and just like kind of write that off especially considering if you were going to be worse without Pertil than the picks would in theory become more

valuable. So I kind of like what Danny is saying like is there a middle ground between can we lose Pascal if only to see what we have in Scotty basically be Scotty and Anobi Pertil and whatever is left and just like try to move forward from the middle as opposed to

either bottoming out or trying to swing a big deal for a star. They should definitely go to that route because Scotty's the next Kauai. So that's what they should be doing. I think that is the drink at home that we mentioned Scotty Barnes. It's not even the, it's, you made that joke. That's the free space on the bingo card.

That's not even a drink at home. I just couldn't help myself. I couldn't help myself. That was a thing that happened on the internet once. Oh, people know. But in the mock, we have Keante George of

Ailer going to Toronto at 13. Danny, any thoughts on him? Pure Hooper. 64, 200, just a real confident shooting guard. He had ups and downs, but his highs in terms of just creating his own shot are as high as, you know, any shot creator in this draft. You worry about whether or not he has the requisite pop, the athleticism, you know, his attention to detail on defense. But for a Raptors team that literally has like 18 dudes who are between 6, 7, 6, 9 who can't shoot, having a guy who can confidently call his own

number, you know, hit a three, hit stepbacks, has a bag like to get, you know, from A to B. I get it. He's not, he's not my favorite of that kind of archetype in this draft. But, you know, he, he definitely has some fans in the fan base. Yeah. Who is your prospect you want the Raptors to draft? If they had to

stick at 13, I would say Kason Wallace out of Kentucky. 6-2-6-9 wingspan, probably the best guard defender in the draft. He is phenomenal. In that regard, like, reminiscent of, you know, the mountains, the

Derek White's. He's really on it. He's like really a guy who's going to hound the defense. He's like NBA ready right now. And he has the whole Kentucky allure, right? Like, oh, he hasn't really shown that much on offense. You know, he can kind of do a pick and roll. He can kind of shoot. But it's a bit, you know, tepid.

But we've seen it time and time again. These Kentucky guys come in and they have so much more to offer. And I think if I'm the Raptors, I'm banking on the defense and the room for growth. Why don't we flip to the Mavericks just before we go here just because they're probably one of the more intriguing teams going to the draft. Taylor Hendricks is the mock pick. Dan, you want to give us the quick download? Yeah, he's basically built in the Jonathan Charks Laboratory. 6-9, great shooter, flies around on defense. Really, like, you'll see some of his chase down blocks and they're like, awesome. So he's, so that's the pitch right there. Like, how many 6-9 big wings can shoot

40% from three and be a good rim protector. There was like maybe three. If that. So if he pans out, you're getting a very, very valuable player. Yeah. Unfortunately,

I don't know if the Mavericks have the time to wait. Rob, what do we do here? Because they need veterans theoretically. But I don't know how you even trade this pick and get someone that they need. So where are you in the Mavericks? going to the draft.

Yeah, for as appealing as that pitch was, Danny, they cannot make this pick. Like the, I think there's a lot of different ways Dallas can go, but you just paid $750,000 in fines to get to this spot, to have this pick as an asset, basically to trade it. And I think the most realistic outcome at this point is probably trade down from 10 while picking up a veteran who can plug in. and then you're hoping that whoever you draft

at whatever lower landing spot that is can also play. And then you have a decent young player on a rookie scale deal and a veteran who ideally could dribble. Those things would be really nice. And if you can manage that, especially a veteran with size,

like they just need, they have such a need for like real wing depth at this point that I think transcends whoever they could get coming out of this particular draft class. So Dallas needs a lot. There are a lot of questions. There are a lot of holes in that rotation that need filling.

They cannot make this pick a tent. They cannot do it. I thought this was part of the package for Braun. I thought that was weird. Well, that's a veteran who can dribble, you know? Like, if that's what it ends up being. He's a veteran. Three and D sometimes.

Sometimes three, sometimes D. Secondary ball handling. Sure. Him and Kyrie have a great relationship. Well, wise. The specific rumor outside of LeBron James 1 from ESPN is 10 for 15 in Kling Capella. Does that do anything for you? Clean up your defense.

Still get a young guy that you could figure out later? I don't think Capella is a defensive cleaner anymore. He used to be. He used to do that for James Hardin. When he first got to Atlanta, he was doing it for, for Trey Young. But I don't know, man. All of the injuries, I think, might have sapped him of his ability to be this sort of one-man wrecking crew, you know, the sort of vertical spacing on those alle Ups on picking rolls.

Like, I don't think he has that in him anymore. So I don't know if he could find a fountain of youth to be the Rockets version of himself, I'm not mad at that deal because of what he provides in the paint when he's actually catching the rock. And defensively, you know, he used to be a guy that could move his feet late, late in the clock now on switches, not an automatic switch guy. But I feel like the injuries of sapped him of what he was. But the Mavericks need to be looking at guys that can defend.

That's that's that's a huge need right now, especially if they're going to pay this Kyrie guy. So like they need to be loading up on people that could stop folks. Yeah, I like Capella in that way as more of a stepping stone option, if that makes sense. Like there is no big that they're going to get right now who is going to save their defense. And was you're right? Like the way Capella has been slowed by injuries has taken him out of that, you know, fringe all defense, like maybe third on some people's defensive player of the year ballot, some years kind of thinking.

Like he's not that guy anymore. But he gives them a chance to play defense in a way that I'm not sure there are other bigs on the market. Yeah. They can do that right now. And like you don't want to be swing like, oh, let's trade for Rudy Gobert. You know, like we don't want to be doing that. So I think the option is let's trade for someone more in the Capella mode while also retaining a decent mid-first.

I kind of like that construction for Dallas, honestly. So I have a couple similar names, Danny. I'm going to throw them to you. And they are equally underwhelming, but they also trade back or they dump Bertanz's contract. So depending on what's more interesting to you. So I have Boyan Bogdanovich from Detroit. I have Kelly Olinick.

This is a little bit more confusing because it would have to be a sign-in trade, but Harrison Barnes, PJ Washington, and Doug McDermott. Are any of those like sign me up? I mean, I love PJ Washington. Me too.

He can definitely do all the things that they need. The other guys don't really move it for me. Like Harrison Barnes, would they really welcome like a reunion there? I don't know. I like PJ Washington. But he doesn't always reach his defensive capabilities, man. I think he'd, look, he's, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he's, he, he's gonna do well.

But they really need guys that lock in on defense around Luca, um, because somebody who's a little bit less offensively talented than him, but really brings a consistent level of defense. I think Luca's so talented on offense, he's going to make that work. I think you can sacrifice a lot of the skill. parts of things, if the guy's really going to lock in on defense. I don't know, man. Is Doug McDermen not doing that for you? He's not locking it up.

Dougie McBuckets is not. He's not a straight jacket. No, he's not a human straight jacket. Absolutely not. I think Doug is underrated, though. I would like to see him playing on a good team. I actually saw one of the Victor Webenyama murals in San Antonio is like a wraparound mural with many members of the Spurs, one of whom is Doug McDermott.

Wow. He doesn't have his own. No, it's, but the fact that Doug McDermott is part of a composite mural. What a time to be alive. I think he's like going to make the most amount of money on the Spurs next season. He is their face of the franchise, at least until tomorrow when Victor gets drafted here. If I'm Jaron Jackson, the original, I'm pissed off right now about Dougie McGuockets having that damn mural. Are you shitting me?

I also have Miles Turner down just because why not? Mams are really in a bind here. Like, I do not know how they get just more players, let alone, like, better fitting and good players into this team. Bro, they let Jalen Brunson go so that they can pay Kyrie 20 million more. Maybe. They hope they can pay Kyrie 20 million. Right, maybe.

That's a good point. All right. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Before we go, though, we do have a special little treat for you guys. Wise, you talked to Jamal Murray the other day. Do you want to set up this interview? Yeah, man. We got to talk to Jamal Murray.

He's celebrating his championship. Still talked to him about the season, about his road back. I thought it was just a really fun interview. Tried to get him to talk some shit about other teams. But it was fun. It was good. He's in a great mood. And I think the coolest thing is he's just like, I've been rehabbing for damn

in two years. having worked on my game one off-season this first off-season you're going to actually work on stuff. So just imagine that, Denver Nuggets fans. It sounds like us. Like, that's actually how I'm going to go into this off-season as well.

All right, but why don't we wrap it there? Thanks to Danny for joining us. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next week, same time and same place. See ya. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Ringers NBA podcast.

Of course, I'm Big Was, and I'm joined by a very, very, very special guest. today, Jamal Murray, NBA champion of the Denver Nuggets. Welcome to the show, Jamal. Appreciate you having, man. How's it going? I'm good. I'm good.

I'm really excited to talk to you today, for one, would like to congratulate you on your championship. And two, I want to thank you for making me look like a genius because I actually picked you guys to do this back in October of last year. I believed in you guys and you rewarded my belief, Jamal. Hey, man. I predicted that too. I love that. I love that. Man, so, you know, we got you up here with Crown Royal today.

Obviously, you're still in celebration mode of the championship. But I do want to talk to you about 2021 and going down. And quickly, I want to mention, I saw you on T&T very early on in the playoffs. And they said something about the Bubble Murray thing. And I saw you got visibly annoyed. And I was like, you know what? I feel Jamal because he was killing in 2021 before he went down. It wasn't the bubble.

He was killing. So talk about going down and coming back this year in that journey. Yeah. You know, I don't know. The bubble was a fun time for sure, basketball-wise. But that wasn't it, man. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, when everybody's talking about, you know, I wouldn't do anything or I wouldn't make a difference.

we haven't seen it. I missed two post seasons. I didn't just miss one season. You know what I'm saying? Two post seasons is a lot. And so I just want to make sure I came back with the right motivation, with the right mentality, and let everything speak for itself. You know, I know the level I can play the capability I'm playing with. And, you know, I think when Nuggets are playing their best basketball, you know, no one can beat us. So just getting back to that confidence, getting back to that mindset and not letting you know all the outside noise that I was dealing with all the time I was out, you know, get to me, just kind of use it as fuel. Yeah, I want to talk about stay on that confidence for a little bit because I'm a lot older than you, Jamal. I'm pretty washed. And so I

remember a time when ACL injuries would like completely cook an NBA player's career, right? If a guy went down with an ACL, you question whether he could come back and even be close to the same, much less actually achieve, you know, his prior excellence. But these days, we take it for granted that guys are going to come back from ACLs and be great again. Can you talk about just, when did you realize that, you know, the rust is off and I feel like I'm myself pre-Jamal pre-injury? Well, like I was, you know, I get that question a lot. But, you know, when you come back from rehab, there's a bunch of different.

boxes you check, you know what I'm saying? So the first back to back was a big box. To be able to play two days in a row, that's a big checkmark, you know, come back in rehab. And then, you know, not having as many sore days to having good games, not having so many bad games consistently, you know. All those are all those are over checkmarks and where I was like, okay, this is just growing, you know, being in the paint more finishing, rebounding amongst the tall trees, not worried to land on somebody, falling down, not worried about, you know, landing on my knee.

So there's, it was, it was less about, I'm back and more about, like, how comfortable am I out there? I think that was the biggest thing. And, you know, All-Star break, I think I had a good,

right before All-Star break, I had a good streak of playing well, and that's when I started to feel like, okay, I can go out there. And once I'm shooting at a certain clip, you know, the game will take care of itself. For me, once the after the also break was really when I started to feel like I don't have as many sore days as I normally do or I can lift a little heavier on a bad day

Those are those are those are the check marks that mattered And you know by time I hit by time playoffs came I was already hit my stride and in the full sprint so And crazy thing is you know This is off ACL Champions and I haven't had a summer to really know work on my game. It's just been working on my leg Wow. Literally. So I'm excited to get back in the gym, get back in the lab,

and be able to fine-tune my craft to get better and not just be back playing. So speaking to that, it was something that popped in my head before I talked to you today about the work that you've put into your games, but specifically the work that you do with Nicola. Because I think guys can get better individually. You know, I can shoot better, I can finish better, you know, I can find, I can be better at analyzing defenses and they're picking role coverage,

et cetera, right? But I feel like you've gotten better at being teammates with Nicola and playing off of his strengths and developing your skill with an eye on that. And I think a lot of guys just go out and get better individually, but it feels like you and you've gotten better at just being a teammate. Was that, is that something you intentionally happen? or are you and Nicola just so in sync with a mind meld that it just happens?

I think it's both. I think it's both. You know, we've always had the chemistry. We've always shown that we've been one of the best duels. I think there's a couple adjustments, you know, made in the picking row that we made that, like, it would make it tough to stop. You know, when I'm being super aggressive, you know,

you have to put some attention on me And then that leaves yoke open for all the time that we need, you know what I'm saying, to get him open or make him make the play. So I think just obviously we both get better individually, but what we do is so natural. You know what I'm saying? We don't fight the game. If there's a back cut, we go, we pass. If it's not there, we don't. We look at the time and score.

We look at the tempo, the pace. We look at the chances we can run in transition. We know when both each other, we know when each other is hot and went to give each other's space without saying anything, you know what I'm saying? So it's just a constant, a constant read throughout the game of each other's not only each other's game or how the game going, but also each other's mood. You know what I'm saying? It's a long season. You know, he might not have it every night. Then I got to pick it up or get everybody else involved.

And he knows I might not have it every night. He knows he's got to be more aggressive. So I just think it's a perfect balance of not just how our games complement each other, but know how we complement each other. as well. So speaking of the playoffs, I remember again, because I've followed you guys all season long. I know a lot of people, not just because I picked you guys, but also I just love watching you guys hoop, right? And a lot of people got nervous towards the end of the year and was like, oh, Denver, they're slacking, blah, blah, blah. This is not going to work in the playoffs, blah, blah, I've been watching you guys long enough to know that I think they weren't, you know,

maybe showing their hand at the end of the season if they'd lock things up. However, I think the only time it got a little wobbly for me personally was after Phoenix tied it up to two, two, and then in game five you came out and you guys handled business, and I was like, oh, this is going to happen. These guys are going to reach their ultimate destiny.

At what moment, obviously you win the championship in game five of the finals, and it's over? But was there any moments in the playoffs where you were just like, you know what? I think we're going to do this this year For real. Bro, from the beginning, from the moment I was healthy, it's not, the playoffs, we're going to make the playoffs. We're going to make out the first round.

We're going to lose a couple games. We all understand that, but like, we lost four games all postseason, bro. We lost four games. We dropped a sweep opportunity in Minnesota. We gave two to Phoenix. We gave none of the Lakers. and we lost one game in the finals. So I think our ability to bounce back

and just flip the switch on like, okay, once we're doing what we need to do, it does not matter what the other team does. How often do you dream about you playing your best? Like the best, how often do you dream about you playing the best that you could play or you playing or your team or anybody? How often does losing come into mind with that? You know what I'm saying?

So when you're focused on what you can do and what and you're showing your best, the win will become almost easy. It's hand in hand. So focusing on my rehab, focusing on my lifts, focusing on my game, focusing on my mood, my attitude,

my positivity, the energy I'm giving off to my team, that will all come. So I can have a bad shooting night and have a great game. You know what I'm saying? I think people don't understand. So I think not just for me,

but if everybody on the team is doing that, then we're going to be a very, tough team to stop even when shots aren't dropping. I think you start on the final game where we all, I mean, I miss, I don't know what I shot, but in the final game, I couldn't make a three. So I just think when you put your best foot forward through all the negativity, everything that you want would take care of it. So my partner, Rob Mahoney, was actually in the locker room watching you guys celebrate

for game five. He said, I think it was like his 12th championship celebration that he's been to. And he said Denver was probably the people that celebrate. that chip the most, which lets me know that you guys were absolutely relishing the moment and everybody's having a good time. But I want to ask you, how do you feel when you're watching Mike Malone talking all that shit on TV and in every interview possible? I love it.

I'm a New York City guy. Mike Malone's a northeast guy, New York, New Jersey. How do you feel seeing Mike Malone just talk cash shit on behalf of you guys winning the championship? Yeah, I think everybody's drunk. everybody's having a good time. You know what I'm saying? I think I think you just kind of, you know, staying whatever came to mind, you know,

with the media, how it was portrayed. And, you know, I don't know, man. I can't speak for him. But I think it's just a lot of buildup. You know what I'm saying? Like we've been waiting for this kind of opportunity, this kind of moment. And even going back to the bubble, you know,

we came back 3-1, they was talking about Utah. We came back 3-1. They was talking about the Clippers. It was never to focus on how great our team was and what we're capable of doing. So I think it's just a lot of buildup from all those years. You know, Coach has eight years here.

I have seven. Yoke has eight. So I just think it was a buildup for coach, at least speaking for his side. It was a buildup for him. So I'm doing my research in the last couple of days to figure out the things that I want to talk to you. And I read somewhere that you're actually the first,

Arab to ever win the NBA championship in the history of the game, which I was like, whoa, Jamal Murray is Arab and I read that your mom is actually from Syria. And of course, anybody who knows about your story knows about the work that you and your dad did on your game coming up, but your mom never really comes up. What does your mom think about all of this huge success that you're having here in the NBA and just, you know, throughout your career? This has got to be kind of surreal for her. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's just cool for her, obviously, to see all the work that I put in with my dad growing up.

Just see it kind of pay through and her be able to come to the games and all that. But she's never been one for attention or the lights or anything like that. She always gets nervous when my games are on and all that. So she just like to sit back from the far and enjoy what I love. And, yeah, she's just grateful. And I'm grateful to have her along with me with this journey. So can you tell the people what you got going on with Crown Royal and how they're allowing you to celebrate your first? first of what hopes to be multiple NBA championships in your career?

Yeah. You know, I thank you for Crown Royal for helping me celebrate this moment. You know, I wanted to give a little gift to my team, something smooth, something that everybody can enjoy. And I thought I gave this to the whole, you know, coach and staff and players, you know, something small, but something nice, everybody can celebrate responsibly. And, yeah, you know, it's fairly new. partnership, but looking to do more stuff in the future.

Last thing I want to get you out of here on, Jamal. I wonder how much you're paying attention to what your rivals in the West and throughout the league are trying to do to get better. Are you paying attention to these moves, Bradley Biel to the Suns, etc.? We're just getting started, or are you just, you know, focusing on your path and keeping it pushing? Man, I'm focusing on us, man. Like, every team, now it's like, it feels like, you know, now that we're at the top, it feels like every team's going to do what they can do to win or have the kind of team to beat us.

So that was also the same way a year ago. You know, we tried to put together a team where we could beat the best of the best. So now it's just, it's like a UFC championship, you know what I'm saying? You know, you fight, you climb, you blood, sweat and tears, knock guys out, any means, submissions, you get to the top, and now you got to defend the belt. You know what I'm saying? That's the toughest part when you got, now you're looking down on all 29 teams trying to come get you.

I think that's going to be a new test for us, a new challenge, something that we're all excited to do all over again. Hey, man, Jamal, thank you so much for coming on the show. I love watching you hoop. I'm a fan of the style of play that you guys exhibit every single night out there. Much respect to you, man. Enjoy your summer. I appreciate it, man.

Thank you.