The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Facilities Opening in May. Plus: ‘The Last Dance’ Episodes 3-4 | The Mismatch

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

We react to the news that the NBA is considering opening its practice facilities up to players starting as soon as May (1:40), before discussing Marc Eversley’s hiring as the new Bulls general manager (7:06). Then, we close by giving our biggest takeaways from episodes 3-4 of ‘The Last Dance,’ including some revelations about Dennis Rodman and intriguing moments with Phil Jackson (18:40). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Mismatch on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen. Their relief team is working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals and communities that need support. They're now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and Los Angeles. And they're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh, hot meals to hospitals and clinics, fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants and business. You can directly help the heroes in hospitals and clinics who are fighting. for us and you can help keep your local restaurants alive. Please go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate.

We're trying to raise $250,000. And if you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants. Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. Welcome to the ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me

he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Compterter, Kevin O'Connor Kevin O'Connorcercy, Kevin O'Connornaided, Kevin O'Brien. Burdo, how you doing this Tuesday morning, man? As well as we can do, let's get to a few stories that have happened since we last spoke.

The first of which is there was news that I'm sure you got a lot of text about, I got a lot of text about over the weekend that the NBA was going to be opening up facilities for their players coming up on May 1st, which is now just a few days away. And now by the time we have recorded, that has been changed. At the soonest, it would be May 8th. And this is for the states that are loosening up their shelter-at-home edicts that have been sent out. And so Atlanta was kind of the one that was brought up because Georgia has started to open up

gyms and whatnot. But now it looks like, though it was this Friday, it is next Friday at soonest. And here's me betting, Kevin. It is going to be longer than that till things open around the country. This feels a lot more like it was a response to what was going on in Georgia than what the majority of NBA teams feel is a responsible action. Yeah. I mean, I had a couple conversations over the weekend. And the first one was on Friday night before that report came out. And someone said to me, hey, if the NBA were to do this, what do you think they would do to, you know, to make sure that there's no competitive imbalances where one team's able

to start training and another team can't. And then Saturday morning, the news dropped. And then, of course, more people start talking about it. And someone said to me, they're like, this doesn't seem right where one team will be able to and their players will be able to train, sure, but they're all. also be a greater risk too. Will other teams begin to travel there as well? And of course, the NBA quickly did change their ruling from May 1st to May 8th.

Then we'll see if that stays as well. But like you said, Chris, I would be a bit surprised that date doesn't move again to a later date. Well, and just for those of you that don't know, the major basis for this, or at least the team that was used was the Atlanta Hawks because they are in the state of Georgia. And for those that are around the country or around the world that have not kept up with this, the governor of Georgia has been the greatest of colossal dopes in all of this. This is the guy that at the beginning of April said, well, it's been a real game changer because within the last 24 hours, I was told that asymptomatic people can pass on the virus. It's like, bro, have you not had a TV since February?

Like, what are we talking about? This was the freaking governor of Georgia who's doing a press conference saying he just found out that asymptomatic people could pass on the virus. And so nobody is going to follow the lead of this kind of a guy. Right. And so now you see where Travis Schlink, I believe, was the one quoted like, yeah, no, we're not doing this. Like even if we're allowed to do this, we're not doing this. And so I think you'll probably get closer to what you were talking about, Kevin, which is some kind of happy medium of,

hey, how can everybody start to do this around the same time, rather than, oh, there's this team in this market and their state is allowing people to go to gym so they can go to their gym. I think we'll probably get closer to a situation where there isn't this competitive imbalance. And so just feels like a, you know, a false start on this, honestly. Yeah, for sure. And look, everybody's confused. Everybody's confused.

The NBA doesn't know. We've talked about this for over a month now. The NBA doesn't know when they'll be able to be back to some semblance of normalcy. And this is just a little bit of a false start. So it was the right move for the NBA to change from that May 1st date for reopening facilities to May 8th. And it's also worth noting that one of the requirements in there would be a maximum of four players in a gym at once. And I believe they also said players would have to wear masks as well until they're actually on the practice court itself. So precautions are being integrated in there.

It's just a matter of when this actually is going to end up happening. Well, I can speak to in my case in a market like Memphis, nothing is none of the big business. are going to have, like, that employ a lot of people in this town, are going to have people there until, like, the, the next marked date is May 15. That's the next marked date where a decision will be made from there. But generally, the edicts have been made March, or I'm sorry, not March, May, May 15. And so that the edicts have rather been made, like, that, okay, we're going to reevaluate then.

So I would imagine that that date, honestly, even though it says May 8th now, it's probably a lot closer to when people will even start making decisions. Yeah, you know, it's like as I've right now, the governor of Massachusetts is speaking, you know, as we're speaking right now as we're recording and he's supposed

to be giving an update on the non-essential business closures which are still currently May 4th if that date's going to move in, which I would expect it to. But don't know that until after we finish recording this podcast. But hopefully, you know, he makes a smarter decision than

than Brian Kemp, who you rightfully called a dope, the governor from Georgia. Yeah. A story did break yesterday that Sixers' assistant GM, Mark Eversley, has agreed to become the Bulls' new general manager. Agent Ward Genoske reported yesterday. Eversley will join Executive Vice President of Basketball Operations, our tourists, Carni Sovis, and lead the reshaped front office. I mean, this is another step towards when this originally all came down and John Paxson was moving to another role and they did blow out Gar-Forman. I kept saying like, geez, man, like in the end, who's got Jerry Rinesdorf's ear? And, you know, Paxson's still being around as a consultant, are these guys really going to be able to run their own show?

I would say there's typically power and numbers, and so he is at least being able to, Carni Chauvases, put together a front office. I do not know much about Mark Eversley. Do you? So I can't really, I don't know if this is good, higher, bad hire. I mean, obviously everybody's going to build up whatever accomplishments a guy has, but I don't know him. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know what he actually played the biggest factor in. Right.

You know, Keith Pompeii reported that he was one of the big reasons why, Toronto was so interested in DeMarterozen or why Philadelphia was so interested in Matisse Thibel as well. You can point to the successful draft picks, but I'm sure there's probably some poor decisions along the way as well. I mean, ultimately, like, that's true for any general manager, any executive in the league. For Mark Eversley, it's just great he's getting an opportunity. First Canadian basketball player to become an NBA GM, the first African American GM in Chicago Bulls history. Those are the accomplishments we can look at. that and think, oh, this is great.

Great for the Chicago Bulls and for Karshi Novis to hire him underneath him and work together. This is a good thing for the Bulls to at least upgrade over Gar-Pax and what they had before to have this brand new reshaped front office. It's fascinating because, you know, just reading here, as I'm catching up, he started at Nike. That's where he, you know, I guess made all of his connections. So he was a Nike guy that ended up getting hired by Brian Calangelo.

and then kind of followed Calangelo around in Toronto and Philly. That's one thing worth noting, right? He did follow Calangelo around, but when Calangelo was let go from Philadelphia, he was one of the guys who stayed on the staff. Right. You know, some guys did move on. Everisly did stick around.

Yep. You ever heard of this guy, Bobby? You're from Philadelphia. Have you ever heard of Mark Eversley? I mean, do you know, does anybody that you know have an opinion on him or losing him? I think the Sixers fans that I follow who are process truthers, process trusters, are a little bit skeptical of a guy like Mark Eversley because when Calangelo was removed,

and I know a lot of Philly people who are not fans of Calangelo, when Calangelo was removed, I think people interpreted it as a problem that a lot of his staff stayed behind because it makes it hard to have a smooth transition and to move on from an era that was admired in controversy and general weirdness. So I think people have a largely negative view of Eversley. I don't know if that's really founded in anything, but we'll see what he can do to change that public perception. Fair enough.

A couple other things. Aaron Gordon dropped a disc track about Dwayne Wade, nine out of ten. Did you listen to it, Kevin? Yeah, it's fine. I'm going to tell you something. The video is cornyered in all hell. But I thought the video funny.

I was, I was kind of impressed. Because here's the problem to me, the video wise, okay? It doesn't feel as tongue and cheek as it should be, right? Like I can't tell if it's supposed to be, if I'm supposed to laugh at it, or if he's like, you know, acting like a boss about this whole dump. contest thing. Like, I don't really, it falls in a weird line.

Like, it feels like it could be a Saturday night live skit that's mocking rap videos, or I kind of feel like he's taking himself seriously. But I will say the rapping was not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. In fact, I thought it was pretty good. Aaron Gordon had a couple of bars.

Yeah, it was solid. It was solid lyrically. It was fine. It was not the bestest track, but it was fine. That's when you know guys are really bored as hell. Poor Aaron Gorge has been sitting in his house stewing over that dunk contest thing. But, you know, maybe, maybe now, I don't know.

Wouldn't you think you'd drop that sooner to the dunk contest? I feel like he's been sitting around his house like mega bored and it was like, all right, I'm sick of this crap, you know, or maybe he watched it back and it infuriated him all again. but I mean we're several months past that dunk contest. It was so weird even when I watched that video and thought about that dunk contest. Doesn't that seem like just forever ago? It really does now. It seems like forever ago.

In fact, I found myself trying to remember things about the season. That's how long ago it feels now, which is sad, but it just does. Or is that just me? I mean, everything simultaneously. feels like a century ago, but also yesterday. I mean, like this month right now, it's April 28th. It feels like April just began. But in some ways, it's gone by incredibly slow.

So that's true for nearly anything when I think about what the season. Like, we're doing our defining moment series on the website. We're all writing articles about like the best moments of the season and the weirdest moments of the season, like Chris Paul, you know, talking about Jordan Bell with his jersey untucked and all that. Like that feels like forever ago. And yet it's sort of just like, it feels like yesterday.

Everything feels that way in life right now. It's so weird. Much to my dismay, Zion Williamson did an interview last night and said, where there's a will, there's a way. And I'm staying in shape.

And I'm ready to go whenever they crank it back. So as I said, a guy like Zion, a guy like Nicolaeokets, these bigger guys, uh, that they would, you would think that,

uh, There's many of them that could be at risk of, you know, getting lazy, sitting around, eating a lot of food, and then maybe not coming back in the greatest of shape, especially considering Zion had been off his legs for so long and it only played 19 games since he had come back. And that training hard might be a difficult task to do, especially given our circumstances. But Zion says he is, you can throw the ball up tomorrow and Zion's ready to go. go. So that was a pleasant surprise. Look at Mr. Responsible Zion Williamson. Every player I've talked to since this started for interviews, it sounds like they were just itching, itching to get back to the court. Even guys on some losing teams want to get back onto the court. I mean, there's this belief that a lot of guys are going to be like,

I'm just ready for summer, you know, packing in, season's over. But that's not the case. It's that most guys, every guy that I've talked to wants to get back out on the court. And it does seem like that teams and players are doing everything they can to keep guys in basketball shape. Zion, of course, you know, I believe he mentioned or was reported that Pelicans sent, you know, workout equipment to every single player's house to keep them in the best possible shape as they can while doing Zoom workouts and all that stuff too. So teams are doing what they can with these guys. But again, it gets back to what we've talked about a bunch. There's a difference between basketball shape and being in. regular person shape and they're going to still need that time to get back on track,

whether it's three or four weeks before actually playing competitive games. So it's great to hear, though, that Zion is staying in the best possible shape that he can because you're going to keep these guys healthy. Look, we all know this too. It's very difficult to self-motivate, especially if there are at your house. I mean, you know, I see every once in a while, uh, some, will ask Shea Serrano, who is always willing to give tips about, you know, how he got to where he is. But he says, you know, he has this office elsewhere because if he stays at home, he's not going to get

anything done. And I am of that cloth, right? Like, if I go somewhere, I'll go and work out. I will go. But if you just leave me to my own devices, I'll find a way to just sit around and, oh, I'll do it tomorrow or whatever else. It's very difficult to, you know, you have to really really, you know, be self-motivated or have been at a breaking point where you're just determined that this is what I'm going to do because I think there's a lot of people that, you know, whether it's working or working out, it is much, much more difficult to do it from home. And everybody's learning that now. Everybody is learning that over the course of the last couple of months, how difficult it can be.

Whereas if you go to the gym or if you go to work, you know, like you're there to do what you're there to do. And when you're at home, that's not where you're typically working out or doing your work. And so it's very, very easy to get distracted. And you're asking guys to keep in pristine shape under those circumstances. That's a challenge for all of us, much less professional athletes.

I think I'm the opposite. I have a hard time finding the motivation to go to a gym. I don't know if I'll ever have the will or the motivation or desire to go there and get like a summer bod, but I do have the will to like do a high intensity interval training workout for 15, 20 minutes at home or to ride a stationary bike at home. So for me, like, really? It's a bit, yeah, it's just the truth.

It's a bit easier in that sense that I've always sort of always just done at home workouts when I'm actually, when the switch is flipped on for me being in a healthy mode. Because sometimes I turn it off for like months at a time where I'm like, eh, just don't care. Kevin's coming out of this with the. beard all the way down to his six-pack, Chris. Man, you ain't lying. These guys, Kevin's going to look like damn,

Dan Blizzarian by the time this is all done. Kevin O. Blazarian. Hope I could have the amount of fun that he has, too. Man. Man. Trust me, no, I am not at all going to have a six-pack. I've not worked that hard. I'm still eating.

I'm still playing Call of Duty at 1130 at night with like one of those Amy's burritos that you told me about. Oh, let's go. I'm not going full diet mode here. I'm just, you know, trying to trim some of the fat that I gained the past year or so with everything going on. If I don't have Kevin O'Connor's bearded head photoshopped on Dan Blaserian by 10 p.m. Eastern tonight. Yeah. all for. What am I, what are, what are we even doing these shows for? If I don't have a Kevin Oblizarian Photoshop by 10 Eastern, then we're not doing Friday show. How about that?

If I, if I get some good photoshopps, I will use them as like my Bumble and Tinder photos. Oh, catfish. I want some high quality ones. All right. Well, the biggest thing that has happened since we spoke, Kevin, is we saw episodes three and four of the last dance. Three was primarily about Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson and then in, and then they're working together and how that relationship worked and kind of why it worked and got a little background on that. And then episode four was more about Jordan climbing the mountain that was the Detroit Pistons. And then finally beating them and the pistons walking off the court without shaking hands. And so you got a little insight into how all of the members, or at least the key members,

of that situation feel even over 30 years later, including Jordan still hating their guts. But let's talk about our biggest takeaways from what we watched. I will tell you that there's a lot of this stuff that I did know. but either you forget or in this case the documentary gives you another side to the story that maybe you didn't know, which is including their views on this. The one thing you can't know is how everybody feels about it 30 years later. And Jordan's candor about these situations is truly a godsend because you didn't know. how he's going to play it. But I swear

he is keeping it real about stuff for sure. So let's go through your biggest takeaways on episodes three and four. I mean, like just number one, I loved it. I really enjoyed those two hours. I mean, Dennis Rodman, he was somebody that you knew, even if he didn't know much about the NBA in the 90s or even 2000s, too. I mean, he's one of the most interesting people in NBA history,

dated celebrity icons, befriended a dictator. didn't play high school basketball, but became a Hall of Famer and a five-time champion. It's wild, you know, and through all like the eccentric, you know, qualities about him, I thought it was really cool that they showed just how much he really loved the game and worked at it. The clip of him talking about how he would go to the gym with guys who would just miss shots and he would try to read the trajectory of the rebound. so he would be able to enhance his athleticism by being in the proper position knowing that where a ball might bounce. That was sort of like his own way of doing analytics, you know, before it's time to know

the highest probability of where a ball bounce, depending on where it's shot from, and depending on who shoots it. That was really cool for me just to see how Rodman's off-court, you know, nature and his on-court nature, for that matter, too, was balanced. with his will and drive and love for the game. You know, Kev, as we think about that, I am, I'm taken aback by, one of the things that was a great takeaway

from that portion of it. Of course, the story about him going and having somebody shoot and then studying rebounding is that many times I think that we think that these gifts are God-given or that a talent is innate. And there's no question that there are some people that have a knack for something or they are quicker learners or that when you teach them how to do something, they have the ability to uncrack a level that none of us will achieve. That being said, so many times what you find when it, and whether it is LeBron James or whether it is Michael Jordan or whether it is Kobe Bryant or in this case, something different, Dennis Rodman, it is also the guy.

that work the hardest. It is not a coincidence that a guy became this amazing rebounder, one of the greatest rebounders in the history of the NBA. It's not just because he had a nose for the ball. He also practiced this, you know, and how many guys truly go out and do that? I will guarantee you, there's almost nobody in the NBA that takes somebody to a gym and says miss a million shots and I'm going to, you know, watch where it careums. And it does bring up this thought of as you're watching this and you're seeing the level of preparation and work that goes into becoming what Dennis Rodman becomes, I do have to wonder there will be people out there that will say, of course he's getting on the court.

What is it? You know what I mean? Of course Dennis Rodman. Like, it doesn't matter what era. Like, there is such a premium put on spacing and shooting. threes, does a Dennis Rodman, who is amazing at rebounding and amazing at defense, does that guy get on the court now? You know, what's fascinating about Dennis Rodman, too, is he is a player who obviously,

obviously was an unbelievable defender, could defend guards, bigs, wings, any view position. But he never averaged over a single stealer block in a season in his career as a guy who average 32 minutes over his career. And a lot of the analytics would say that guys who average low steel and block numbers are not, you know, high-end defensive players. So with that said, I do wonder if maybe if he were a young player, obviously coming from an NIA school at 25 years old, as a guy with the limitations that you're talking about

as a shooter, as a free throw shooter, the limitations with his block and steel numbers, If that guy would have entered the draft and maybe gone overseas and gotten lost in the shuffle or would have gone in the G League and gotten lost in the shuffle, it is very possible that could have been the path for him in today's league almost because of the amount of information that we have now. Listen, I'm not saying that it's not insane. As anybody that listens to this show knows, I miss these kind of guys. And I do think they have value even though, but I am telling with Dennis Robin, it would now

nobody would be talking about what an amazing rebounder and what an amazing defender would be. It would all be about his warts and how you don't have to guard him and look if they, you know, they should be playing this guy that can space the floor over him. Now, one thing you can say to his credit, which is, you know, you do have the steals of blocks numbers, which are not out of control. The rebounding numbers are obviously out of this world. The other thing that is out of this world is, you know, steals and blocks, one of the major things, they do, assuming your team is able to recover, steals, of course, blocks usually.

You're creating your team extra possessions. And his last year, or second to last year with the Pistons, he got, he had 523 offensive rebounds. I mean, that is just preposterous, preposterous. So, I mean, what is the value of creating? an extra possession 523 times in 82 game

I mean that is just that number is just so outlandish 523 he had 523 offensive rebounds and over a thousand defensive rebounds

and that year had 1530 total rebounds in that season the 91-92 season. He averaged 18.7 rebounds a game, 12 defensive, 6 and a half offensive rebounds. He averaged over five offensive rebounds every season

for a good like six, seven-year span. I mean, there's a value to that, right? And he shot 52% from the field. But he only shot it for a career six times the game. So he just didn't, he wasn't part of your offense, right? Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like he was offensive rebounding the ball and then kicking it back out, finding shooters immediately. Yes, exactly. And in today's league, I mean, offensive rebounding today, teams typically get back on transition rather than crashing the offensive boards. But if you had a rebounder at the

level of a Dennis Rodman, would you therefore tweak your philosophy by having a guy like him crash the boards knowing that if he gets that rebound, he's going to have three or four shooters around him on the court to find and kick out for an open spot-off three. I wonder if a guy like him were to come along again with his blend of anticipation and work and athleticism would a team change their philosophy and use that guy as a weapon to get those extra possessions that you're speaking about. The other thing is, does he just play like small five. You know what I mean?

I mean, if you're grabbing that many rebounds, theoretically. I mean, I was trying to think of anybody that was really like this that got to play a lot on a good team. Like, maybe the closest would be like DeAndre Jordan. But DeAndre Jordan was never taking jump shots.

And they obviously hacked him at end of games. But there were those seasons where he averaged an inordinate amount of rebounds. He was never the defender, Rodman is. So, I mean, maybe it's a little, it might be a little, it might be a little extreme to act like he couldn't get on the floor.

I just feel like nowadays, before you would get to see, like what you were saying, before you would get to see everything that he could bring to the table, he would be discounted coming out of college. You know what I'm saying? Like he would just be right off the rip. You would never see that because he would just be thrown aside because he can't do what you need him to do in your offense now,

which is everybody pacing and, and spacing and making sure everybody's guarded. I mean, it's not like he wasn't discounted when he was drafted either. He went 27th in the second round at the time. So he did, you know, fall past a bunch of guys. And by the way, like pulling up that 1986 draft, it's actually kind of shocking to see some of the guys drafted in his range. Subonis was taken by Portland at 24.

Mark Price taken 25th in that draft. There was other talent. Nate McMillan, 30th. There are some quality players taken later in the first round that year. So, you know, you see that, of course, every year in the draft, they're steals. But you do see certain guys like a Mark Price go there and you do wonder, maybe it would be the inverse. Would have Dennis Rodman, because there's so many more eyes and people and gyms,

finding these talented players, would he not have played all his college years at NAA school? would he have gotten plucked from that school and transferred to a Division I school and gotten more opportunity? It's impossible to know. But the fact is with a player like Rodman, to your point, his journey would have been far different had it happened today because of the amount of resources in today's league for better or for worse. Hey, Chris, before we move on, I have to tell the listeners about today's sponsors. As the novel coronavirus pandemic escalates in the United States, public health officials are encouraging those who are experiencing signs or symptoms of COVID-19,

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The bad boy pistons was awesome stuff. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. His own 30 for 30. I mean, it feel like a lot of basketball fans have a real awareness of a lot of the, the Rodman stuff, you know, whether it is with Madonna, Carmen Electro, whether it is, the suicide stuff, I think, probably caught a lot of people by surprise, you know,

and that, and that, thinking about that in conjunction with the way things would be today would just be absolutely, I mean, all of this stuff would be a massively different story. A guy saying, hey, can I go away for 48 hours, would be a massively different story. but I was I was struck by every every every part of it I mean today it's even simply like after the finals on Michael Jordan and Dennis Robb the 97 finals when Jordan and Roder and Scottie Pippen were talking about you know whether the coming season was going to be there next year that today would be even I don't know if it even would have gotten to that point with the amount of social media pressure that's on player's say but sorry I no no I and the other thing is I was struck by And I was glad they kind of went into the whole Phil Jackson thing because you feel like, especially given where Dennis was and how Dennis was acting, that he was the absolute perfect coach for him. And I think it would be fair to say probably the only guy that could understand slash harness him at that time.

Like he's probably out of the league if he's on another team. seriously. Nobody's putting up with that crap. But Phil, Phil, like, you know, him himself was a wild child. And, you know, they even mentioned, and it's just kind of in passing. Oh, yeah. And he did, and he did acid. You know what I mean? So, how many, how many NBA coaches are we saying that that is probably true of? Like, none, right? Like, there's probably none that are like Phil Jackson and that kind of embrace this. He's different. he's a rebel, here's what he needs in order to be able to deal with him. And so I'm not so sure that Rodman's story isn't radically different if he isn't

acquired by the Bulls and Phil Jackson is the coach of that team because I would venture to say almost any other coach would be like to hell with this and be in the GM's office the first day, be like, get him out of here. He's a distraction. This is ridiculous, whatever, you know? Sure. I mean, in many ways, Dennis Rod, was fortunate to get Chuck Daly as well in Detroit.

Absolutely. You know, I mean, and then, of course, things didn't go well for him in San Antonio, but to get Chuck Daly and then to go to Phil Jackson and Chicago, two coaches who understood that he is a very complicated person, that he had to be handled differently and they were willing to handle him differently in the grand scheme of the entire team. But, you know, Phil Jackson obviously deserves loads and loads of credit for that, but so does him the whole team as well for understanding that Dennis Rodman is different.

and that is what you get with him and that you need to do certain things to get him activated on the court. It's Phil Jackson, man. I hope there's like an entire episode dedicated to him. I don't know if we're going to get that, considering so much has sort of been sprinkled in throughout. But like it goes without saying that he was the perfect coach for this team

and he's one of the greatest coaches of all time. But it's also amazing just how differently he did it. The Zen master. with just the way he connects with players, the yoga that they showed them doing during that episode. It just has such a fascinating background, such a different type of person that you get compared to like the typical coach that you might imagine who might be a jock or,

you know, or something like that. But Phil Jackson was like you said, he did acid. Well, and Kev, let me tell you something. It's one of the things over the course of,

my time covering the NBA that I have changed about. And that is that when you watch games, the easiest thing for people to do is to say, this coach made this mistake, this guy, he's playing this guy and he shouldn't be playing this guy, or this lineup. Does he not even look at the lineup data or whatever else?

And it's funny, I think there's probably a lot of people that listen now, and they would certainly consider you to be the more data-driven of the two. But as I've said many times, a show like this that was me i was the guy who was on an afternoon radio show saying look when when when when when when when when lino hollons plays shame badier and oj mayo on the wings here are the results and it makes all the sense in the world because it creates the spacing for the big guys and so this guy is a dope and blah blah blah blah right and whatever else and i was always just it was all about the rotations

the substitutions and then the data and what backed it up um and i will say that as the years have gone on. One of the things that I have learned is that that job, being the head coach and dealing with, it is a people job. There are a lot of guys that can do the X's and O's. And in the end, by the time you get to the biggest moments outside of like out of bounds plays with somebody like Brad Stevens has a million in the kitty or whatever, the other teams know your plays. This is about dealing with these players, getting the most out of these players. motivating these players and then obviously, you know, making them better basketball players. But that whole personal angle to it, it is, that is a gift.

And that is what these, the great coaches have. There's a lot of guys that can do the X's and O stuff. But in terms of dealing with the personalities and the egos involved and knowing how to do that, that's so much more of the job than I originally thought it was or gave it credit to. You just think of coaches and it's the plays they call and the substitutions they make. And if it doesn't agree with what the data says, then you're a bozo, you know, if you're the coach. But I do think that what you don't see is all of that other ancillary stuff. And that is what Phil Jackson was an absolute master at.

Can I ask you guys a question about Phil in this doc? So what did you make of how he talks about the triangle in this doc? Because to me, he tries to make it seem like it's not that special in his interviews in the doc. I mean, obviously it's important to him. But then if you look back in the last 10 years, when he took over the Knicks, he installed coaches, only coaches who would run the triangle. To their detriment, I would say, because it was kind of an outdated offense by that time. And so I'm wondering, like, he's kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth on the triangle. triangle right now where he's like it's not that special it's just about getting players to move

versus like when he actually was in charge of an organization it did seem like it was that special to him i think that he really believed in what tech's winter believed in there's no question he did right yeah i also believe that the whole the whole triangle thing has become it's kind of become its own overblown subject, which, so I guess I'd fall on that side, which is like, okay, yes, the triangle is a type of offense and there's a lot of motion and there's a lot of availability for it to morph into different things. And so what I have found to be true is over the years, no matter what offense it is, I'm not sure that it's antiquated. I think if you probably ran it right now with LeBron James and Anthony Davis, guess what? It'd be amazing. Like, that's what I'd guess, right?

And so it was with Shaq and Kobe, and it was with Jordan and Pippin, and it wasn't with a bunch of rat players. And so then we say, oh, well, the offense isn't that good. Well, like, anything. So there is a truth to what people say you could have run anything if you were, if you had Kobe and Shaq. That's maybe so. But I will also say, to his credit, this episode does kind of make it seem like, hey, you couldn't just run anything with Jordan and Pippin. What it would create was Jordan being absolutely amazing,

but it might be it would not get the most out of all of the other players. I think the triangle in it of itself probably is just a little overblown. Like, all right, let me tell you something. And this is how I say this. Guess who everybody thought was a crap coach in New York and in L.A.? In two premier franchises. Mike Dantone, right? he sucked.

Ask Nick's fans what they think about Dan Tony. Ask Lakers fans what they think about him. He wouldn't any good. Did anything change? Really? You think Mike Dan Tony changed a lot? Or you think he had Steve Nash at one point running offense?

And then he had James Harden at one point running offense. And he had these sorry teams in these other situations that he was in. I just, I don't know. I guess that would be my long-winded way of my explanation. It's like the old coaching adage. Jimmy's and Joe's are more important than X's and O's. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that the problem in New York was that Phil Jackson wanted to run the triangle

or the problem in Minnesota, frankly, was that Kurt Rambis was running the triangle. It was stupid as hell, given their personnel. You know, you can't just run it with any personnel. And that's what I would say is the detriment, is when you are married to a philosophy so much that it does not fit your personnel. And to that point, Mike T. Antony has changed. Yes, there are elements of, you know,

the seven seconds or less stuff, but he knows very well that an isolation offense with James Harden and now with Russell Westbrook suits them better than just flying up and down the court as he did with Sean Marion and Amari Stottemeyer and Steve Nash and whoever else, right? Yes, I think, I don't know. I think I fall on both sides.

The triangle a little overblown, but in the other sense, if you've got the players, I'm not sure that it's antiquated and you couldn't run it, you know, or certainly elements of it. They did not focus a lot on him,

you know, stabbing Doug Collins in the back. I thought that was funny. I mean, when it comes to the triangle, the one thing I think about is, you know, Michael Jordan's willingness to adapt and sacrifice in order to be part of that system. Well, mega reluctantly though, Kev.

Yes, because of the quote where he called it bullshit. Yeah. He didn't want to. When Bill Cartwright was getting shot to the end of the shock clock, reluctantly, but he was willing to do it despite all the success he had. Right. And credit to him for sticking to it and being willing to do that because, like, yes, I agree with you.

that, you know, like I just said, Jimmy's and Joe's are more important than the X's and O's. But the system can influence and enhance a player's skill by putting them in better positions to succeed. Or as Phil Jackson said, it made it about more than just the one player. It got other guys involved in the game. That's what Steve Kerr has talked a lot about with the Warriors as well.

You know, when it comes to their system, not running a ton of pick and roll, that's because he says he wants the ball constantly moving so other guys are more engaged. That's the risk with what Houston does with James Hardin and Russell Westbrook. What other guys might just be standing in the corner, you need to have the right type of guys to do something like that. Player personality becomes a factor into it.

Michael Jordan on one side needed to be willing to sacrifice. On the other side, you're going to have guys who are willing to maybe just stand in the corner and take spot up threes if it's something like Houston. So it's about having the right system that fits the right personnel. and that perfect marriage with team building and coaching and production on the court, creating the best product possible. It all goes together. I know a lot of people have talked about a lot of different subjects that came out of it.

I have not heard as many people broach. One of the things that stood out to me in watching this, of course, people are going to talk about the bad boy pistons and how much animosity there is still there. And that's going to be a big subject. And then obviously even in the day since, I believe Rachel Nichols is in. interviewed some of the guys and and they have gone out of their way to say, you know, oh, I would have done it different.

And Bill Ambier says he wouldn't have done a different, whatever else. One thing that has not been talked about a lot, I don't think, but was seemed very significant to me. I don't know how you felt, Kev, but there is before the Bulls get over the hump. So the year before, okay, when they take the Pistons to game seven and there's the Scotty Pippin migraine game for game seven. Is it not abundantly clear that Michael Jordan does not believe Scotty Pippin had a migraine? Is that not what you felt?

I mean, he was like, I mean, he said he had a migraine. And I mean, you know, that's what he said. I mean, what are you going to say? I mean, just tough timing and, you know, I mean, like, when you say he said he had, it's almost like that that to me is said he didn't just say he had a migraine and God it was you know

I hate that it was at that time and I don't blame him but you know he said he said he had a migraine as if you say he said he did if you don't believe he did that's what I would say yeah he clearly he clearly believes either Scotty

didn't have a migraine or that Scottie had a migraine but he couldn't handle and Michael Jordan would have played through it because he's tougher and it's one of the two. There's just no way around it. He did that interview and I'm like, damn.

He's like, well, he said he had a migraine. That's not exactly the way to like go to bat for your guy, right? Like, I think he, you know, they got waxed. I can't really resent that. You could tell. You could tell. That was one of the moments that the Jordan resent came out. he could not talk about that and just, you know, give the company line on it.

I wonder if we're going to get a lot more like that because Michael Jordan said that people were going to hate him after this documentary, which by the way, that's not going to, people aren't going to hate Michael Jordan. But how much more of these type of things will come out where people are like, damn, what an ass. Like even the thing with Scott Burrell on the plane, the plane at the end of the, at the end of the show. Brutal. when he's you know I guess Scott Burl might have

had a girlfriend at the time and Michael Jordan's like calling him Dennis Rodman Jr. saying he always has late nights out. Brutal. And he's like, don't say this my parents are going to watch this and he must have been sweating this video coming out for 25 years.

And Jordan looks at the camera and says his parents, he's an alcoholic. I mean, damn. Can you imagine? This guy was a jerk. Can you imagine if Gotti Burrell's watching the dock with his kids. Oh my goodness. Daddy.

Hey, he's on this. And they're like, oh, there you are. And then they get to that part. He's like, oh,

shit. He's like, he's grabbing the switch shirt, turn the TV off. Well, I will tell you that, like, look,

this thing, it went zero to 100 real quick in terms of the cursing in episodes three and four. Because I settled. then my 10 year old son was there and he was like can i watch it with you and i was like yeah sure because we'd watch the first two and i think there was one f word and maybe an s word i mean look i'm not he has heard these words before but it got like maybe first 15 minutes we're we're dropping a couple different f bombs and some s bombs i'm like okay like maybe we should watch it on the

other channel i didn't on ESPN too yeah yeah it just it became there for you i i understand but the first two, I do not think were a real indication of the amount of profanity. You know what I'm saying? I know there's the warning at the beginning. But I thought, you know, it's kind of almost like a PG-13 movie. I think the first two were, right? That's what it kind of felt like. And this one got rated art like pretty quick.

I don't totally understand the FCC. How is it that swear words are allowed on this documentary? but not other stuff. I mean, like, what are the rules? I don't get it. It's nine. I think that's why they're doing it at nine. Oh, so nine o'clock you're allowed to start, start pulling out George Carlin's seven words you can't say on TV.

Well, I may be wrong about this, but, you know, back in the day, I remember, boy, is this really aging me. I remember my parents used to watch that show, NYPD Blue, and that was a big deal when there was a, there was a bear ass on TV. Like one of the cops. I'm serious. I think about how times have changed. But there was like a bare ass on TV and that was like a big deal at the time. And that that show was on, you know, at whatever, 9 o'clock at night. So I think it is, I think you have to be after 9 Eastern, but I will tell you, Kev, that even earlier shows now, there's a lock. There's a, there's a warning that comes on my TV where I like, like, for the last dance, I had to enter a couple of to watch. I don't, I, I never recall ever changing any parental settings, but like for TVMA or

whatever it is. Interesting. I have to, I have to type, I have to type in a code to watch it. Really? Wait, you have to type in a code to watch the last dance. Yeah, yeah. Like it, like it, like it, my TV automatically stopped. I've never, I've never, you, you must have parental settings on there for your kids from a while back. But I'm saying, no, no, no. What I'm saying is I've never done that. I've never going in and set parental settings. So something did that automatically. Huh. It's almost like I would have to go and turn that off. Interesting. Yeah.

But as a parent, what's your take on like as you have two kids? What's your take on like how accessible everything is on the other than these days? You know, like, you know, like, I'm just curious. Like, I mean, I've tried to do. I don't even want to get into this discussion because people will end up, people end up getting mad at me. Look, the YouTube kids or whatever, like there's YouTube kids and it's great.

And for the little kids, like my, okay, so my daughter has a Kindle and she's six. And that Kindle and I've got like the kids Kindle, right, whatever it's called. I can't even remember what it's called. But the kids Kindle, you can't break it. Even if you do break it, they'll replace it. And it's got all the little kid stuff and it's got games on it. And there ain't no like typing in YouTube, whatever. My son now is older and he's in this, he's a YouTube generation or whatever.

And like, yes, there is YouTube kids and yes, there is parental whatever. But what I've done is I turned on like the filter on his, which will weed out like the really bad stuff. But that YouTube kids, it weeded out way too much. You know, for a 10 year old, like I understand. Yeah, yeah. It's probably for toddlers, right? Yeah, I mean, he's this guy's watching, like, he wants to watch like old wrestling matches and stuff and whatever else, right? And so I think the restrictions a little too strong on that for his age.

So I'm kind of an in between. But I do sneak into his iPad and change the settings. There is a filter. It can't filter out everything. But he's also not going to watch, you know, some, he can't watch some video. It doesn't, like those videos that are like, you know, here the F word said 150 different ways. You know what I mean? Like that wouldn't even show up on his.

You know what I mean? There's like a filter where you can at least, you know, get rid of like the explicit or the MA or like some kind of music video that's got a bunch of strippers in it or whatever else. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, we didn't, we didn't get our first computer until I was, I think, 11 years old. that's the first time I ever access to like the outside world in the sense that like it's at your fingertips right like watching TV with what's fed to you is different than like when you can look up anything at all and like kids have that from birth now and so I would just imagine as a parent it's a lot more challenging now to have kids you know be quote unquote safe but I'm sure there are probably a lot of parents out there who are like eh you know kids are going to get exposed and they probably just

don't even bother with the filters like I don't contrasting philosophies. I don't fall into that completely. I also am well aware that when I was a kid, I grew up in a strict house. And guess what I did? I went over to my friend's houses to watch R-rated movies. And I snuck behind their back to get like explicit. Oh, there, I have a bit.

Oh, look, my father, my father found NWA straight out of Compton in my book bag. Wow. Pulled, it was a cassette. Wow. What happened to you? What happened to you after that? Okay. So, oh, of course, it was horrible.

So number one, he pulls it out and is furious. You know, it says something to me. And like, there's no explaining it. The second track is called F the police. You know, I'm a little kid. I mean, you're not talking your way out of this, right? Like, this is vile trash to my father. My father is a deacon at the church, by the way.

Okay? He rips out the ribbons of the tape in front of them. Like something you would see from a movie. Wow. And then snap, hey, and then snaps the tape in, too. I'm dead serious. It was not a kid's game. But the point is, I was the kid sneaking around to try to find this stuff.

You're so damn curious when you're a kid. So I don't have a lack of awareness of that. You know what I mean? I don't want my son, you know, definitely yeah yeah watching everything listening to everything i do monitor that stuff on the other hand i know that given the opportunity you try to figure out what's what and what's cool and it seems like you've struck the right balance where you're being where you're being yeah sure i mean like he's got he's got he's got to he's got to you know come across things you know and it's it's going to they go to a you know

the school that my kids go to is a Christian-based school. And it's not like, you know, overly, I don't know what it's saying. Based in morality, I love the place that he goes. And he does have this, you know, the reason I think I'm more trusting, he does have this moral compass that I do think. He, right and wrong, no matter what your opinion on is in, religion, for those of you out there listening. I am one that sees a tremendous benefit. I did not go to a school like this, but I do see the whole, this developing a moral compass and what is right and what is

wrong and how to treat people and what you should be watching or saying or whatever else. I do think that there is a tremendous value to that. Some will end up rebelling greatly as years go on, of which I'm aware of. I had many friends that were raised very, very strict. went to strict schools and then they went off the meter the other way, right, to another extreme. But in their case, with mine, I have found that they have that they know what's right and what's wrong and what they should be doing and what they shouldn't. But if you're going to sneak around doing it, that makes you no different than what I did when I was a kid or I think any of us. You're all curious when you're a kid, right? You're all, everybody had a friend who's, you know,

the TV was descrambled or had HBO or like it's it's it's only natural for a young kid to oftentimes rebel against their parents or to want what their parents say you can't have that that's

don't do that that's horrible for you you can't do that like it's only natural but a kid will then be curious about what that actually is and why it's quote unquote forbidden well and you guys know me because I'm I joke all the time

so what I do is if I like hear something on his iPad, whatever, then the next time we sit down for dinner, I'll be like, you know, his mom's there, right? And I'll be like, hey, mama, be like, you know what William loves more than anything? He loves watching videos with the F word. He loves the F word. He's like, no, I don't. Right now he's so embarrassed. Like, what? I heard it in my room when I walked by. I walked by. And somebody said, he's like, I didn't watch any video that said that word. You know, he's so nervous to say, you know, and so I just bust his ass about it. he sounds sort of like me at that age.

I mean, I remember sometimes, like, there was a certain song that would come on the radio or like that I would have on a cassette that I knew had a swear word in it. I would like turn off the radio for a quick second as the,

as that word came up in a song and, you know, to like mute it my own censorship. That's right. No, you learned your own censorship. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, like, I was like a good kid. I was a good kid. And I didn't want to, you know, quote unquote disappoint my parents when I was young with stuff like that even though I knew it would be okay because they're accepting as you are you know with your kids like if that like so what if william loved

music with swear words or TV shows and swear words uh you'd be supportive you might just because you know that he's a good kid no I well and I just that's that's the number one thing you just if I embarrass him like that then he's like no I don't no I don't I don't like the uh I don't so funny sounds to me like you love it. You know what I mean? Right? My poor wife deals with three children in the house. Trust me.

I'm just, I'm more like his older brother or something, trying to get him in, trying to get him in trouble with mom. I'm just trying to get him in trouble with mom. It's amazing. All right. Well,

hopefully now I've learned my lesson. I'll be watching the ESPN2 version of the last dance when my son is in the room. but I cannot wait for next week because real quickly, did you see the preview? I did not. Tell me. Oh, boy.

Oh, boy. So all the news, like this is great for us, too, as media members. So all the stories are getting out leaking about what's happening in the locker room. What's happening in the practices, right? You know, guys getting punched at practices, guys doing this, whatever. And they set this whole thing up. where guess who's jealous of not getting any shine? Horace Grant.

Oh. And so even all these years later, you've got the other guys saying it was Horace. Everybody knew it was Horace. Horace was telling our business out, so they got a problem on their hands. This Bulls team has a problem on their hands where all their news about their team is getting out and they all suspect and know it's Horace. and then the preview ends with Horace Grant saying, I never gave one story to Sam Smith.

Ooh. You know, because he wrote the Jordan rules. Yes. So it's like, how are these media members knowing everything? And they all blame Horace. And Horace is obviously talking on the episode. No, this ends up being good, right? Okay.

This ends up being really good. I'm looking forward to this. How did their news get out, right? how did their news get out? That'll be a good one. Just wanted also say for Friday show, we'll be doing some more mailbag questions. So submit those through email to me,

Chris and Bobby at NBA Mailbag at gmail.com. NBA Mailbag at gmail.com. We'll be doing it coming up this Friday. Thanks to Bobby Wagner, as always for producing another episode. Kev, I'll talk to you on Friday. See you, man. Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network that we are launching this week. It's called TV concierge. It's only available on Spotify. These are 12 to 15 minute mini podcasts that review the latest TV shows streaming on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, HBO, Showtime, FX, Apple TV, wherever else. We'll preview new shows that are launching. We'll break down the biggest shows that just launched. We'll review the biggest binge watch seasons that drop as they happen. It's our new.

TV concierge podcast from the Ringer podcast network. Think of it like a little bit of a playlist. Pick and choose the ones you want to listen to. It's available only on Spotify.