The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Festivus: Airing Grievances on Adam Silver, Draymond Green, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here celebrating their yearly holiday tradition of NBA festivus! The guys are here to first air out some NBA grievances and then they talk about some of their holiday related and otherwise grievances. (00:00) Intro (3:01) FanDuel Ad break (3:53) Draymond Green (9:50) NBA Grievances (20:41) FanDuel ad break (58:18) Holiday Grievances Send your questions to [e-mail]! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Audio Producer: Isaiah Blakely Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Social: Isaiah Blakely and Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me for this Festivist extravaganza. We're actually recording on Festivist, which is appropriate. Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man. Rob, do you have your poll handy? What do you got over there? Well, yeah, where's the Vasili Mietchich pole? You're the pole man, typically, if you'll pardon the expression. Is that like a stick man or is that something different? Yeah. Quite a pole man, JV. No poll, which was actually a broom, just happened to be around. And the Vasily Mietich photo, which was, I believe, black and white and just had all those lines in it that you get from just like a shitty printer.

I don't know where that is. It's somewhere. I definitely wouldn't throw out just like an artifact like that. I hope not. That's a piece of group chat lore. We could auction that off to the highest bidder. Well, today is Festivus, but also NBA Festivist, which we always do in preparation for the Christmas Day slate.

You'll probably be hearing this on the day after Festivist, which is unfortunate because we will be already tuckered out because we celebrated so hard. Just quick bit of like housekeeping here before we move on here. We're on a holiday schedule a little bit. So we'll be recording on Sunday as

per usual, but the following we won't be recording again until the following Sunday. And for that episode, we're going to do a mailbag. And so if you have any questions, Preferably like big picture evergreen sort of topics. Not like your trade best ideas, which we can get a lot of, which are fine. But, you know, there's only so many of those we can address.

Send those to what was the email again? The email is ringer group chat at gmail.com. And as usual, I read every email that comes into that inbox. Every, every subject invites to your social events, recipes, your trade ideas. Like, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I will read them. And in this case, we will read them for content. So I'm hoping we get some really juicy stuff for this mailbag, JV. Yes.

And thank you to the person who invited me to their, like, jazz concert the other day. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it. I had another event already lined up there. But I would have gone and I would have said hello and just, just vibed out to some smooth tunes with you. Well, so now you know, one more thing you can drop in the inbox. If you are in a jazz trio or quartet of some kind, Justin's your man. you know, in the greater Portland area. Just by the vernacular alone,

I can tell that you frequent these types of places where you said smooth tunes. I think that was basically a credibility check and you passed, Justin, you really did. I don't have any sunglasses handy, but I would definitely would have put those on right before we're replying to that. All right, we're going to get into some airing of grievances.

But why don't we take a quick break and we will start from there. The Ringer MBA show is presented by Fandall. Fandall, Fandall's Got It All, same game parlay, quick bets for, jumping in live in your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandul app or head to fandul.com slash ringer MBA to get started.

21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gandr. Or visit RG-Help help.com. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, NBA Festivis. We only really do part of this. We don't do the whole shipbang. We don't do the feats of strength.

Well, we could if Rob Lulay wants to start fighting some people in order to show his dominance. But we're going to do airing of grievances, which is the main part of Fest of this. And we're going to do that specifically about some NBA topics, but about some other stuff too. Fortunately or unfortunately, I don't know how you want to look at this, but it looked like Jermann Green beat us to the punch because he and Steve Kerr were definitely airing some stuff last night on the bench. I don't know if you guys saw that. Yeah, I mean, business as usual, I would say, for Dremont and Steve at this point. Yeah, that kind of reminded me of when I was a kid, my dad had this tremendous power. Now, I didn't get to hear like the volume that this argument went to.

It seemed like it got heated if it involved Dremont. I did. But from our perspective, you just kind of see the talking. And then you see him like resigned in resignation. Draymond walks away. And it just kind of reminds me of like whenever my dad would sort of like get on my case and just sternly say something to me as a kid. And I would just kind of know it was over. Like there was really no protest.

That was just sort of a like, all right, I'm fucked and just kind of like silently skulk away. I don't know, man. That's you hear people kind of like making bigger picture assessments of this. And just kind of wondering like, does the dream, at what point do we reach like maximum fatigue? with the Draymond experience. If we're not getting maximum Draymond production, you know,

Steph still looks like Steph. Jimmy, when he's, you know, at his full strength still looks like Jimmy, it's like, are we close to it with Draymond? When do we hit it,

you know? I think we're about there, to be honest with you. Like there is a level of reputation and achievement that he carries with him and is always going to open certain doors and give him certain allowances that other players don't get.

I just go through this process with him where you kind of can't be the ultimate winner guy and the guy who needs to go back to the locker room to have your tantrum at the same time. It's like both of those things kind of can't be true. And yet there's no question that he cares. There's no question that he's invested. He wants the Warriors to be a good winning team.

And he has a particular idea of what that looks like. It's just if that idea is constantly bumping up against the young players who are around you, the coach who's trying to pull it all together, basically anyone who's not Steph, then you have to ask yourself, what is all that like high-minded philosophy? about basketball really worth at that point.

Yeah, I think the dicey thing for Draymond is there seems to be a reckoning of players of that era who are losing their power in part because they're just aging out of a point where they could wield that sort of influence over an organization. We're seeing it to a certain degree with LeBron, but LeBron is on a completely different level than Draymond. But you start to look around and everyone's getting old on that Warriors team and you're also looking at the standings and how they played this year and you're like, well, in order to make a big move, you need a big contract.

They only really have three of those. And Jimmy hasn't been just a gangbusters fit this season, but you would argue that he's having a pretty solid individual season. And you do wonder, like, if you have to start cutting from the core, Drayman makes sense. And I also always look at Steve Kerr in these instances, because he feels like he ages two years every time Draymond does one of these things. And he has been out front about this.

He does not have an extension past this year. And it would just surprise me if he doesn't re-up and really finish out the Steph era. But I could also see him walking away and being like somebody else deal with it and somebody else isn't going to have the maybe emotional intelligence to deal with Dreymond like this on a daily basis. Oh, yeah.

I think it takes a really particular skill set to coach Dremont Green. And to the larger point here, if he was the Dremond of 2016 or so in terms of just one of the best defensive players we've ever seen play basketball, you put up with a lot. The version he is right now is still brilliant, still incredibly savvy in terms of how he defends,

not quite as flexible in terms of playing the five as much as he used to be able to. And so now he's just like one of many good defensive players and attached to that a serious offensive liability in very specific ways, in particular, like his willingness to shoot or not shoot on given nights. And this is where the Dramont stuff and the Jimmy stuff

sort of overlaps. Like they're similar personalities in certain ways, but they're also similarly reluctant offensive players in a way that it's great, have Steph being Steph. It's great to have these, you know, certain breakout games from the supporting cast now and again. But there's some games where it's like you need Jimmy Butler to take more than five shots and you need Draymond Green to not be allowing defenses to cheat away from him. And the fact that both of those things are happening simultaneously just puts a lot on

stuff. I mean, at least Jimmy is at least reluctant. You know, Draymond doesn't have really the choice to toggle into that mode. And it's true. You mentioned the contract thing, JV, it's like, you can't the context of what made him pop so well and fit he's one of the most interesting players in NBA history and the fact that he is so brilliant like you alluded to Robin like I think that would have ported pretty much anywhere I think the pace and space era

probably was inevitable even though Stephs you know ushered it along but the the circumstances were so perfect for him to pop the way that he did that now that he's aging it's kind of like can you port that somewhere else and make it work somewhere I just don't, I don't see anybody culturally, it just seems like Golden State was built perfectly

where Steph is just sort of this like, I don't know, these padded walls to contain him in a way, not alluding to him literally being crazy, although it seems like it sometimes. I just don't know that you could send him to another team, and I don't think, I can't imagine any other team wanting to take that risk at this point.

Yeah, Dremont makes them special and he still does to a certain extent, but you have to wonder, like, could they be a little bit more conventional even in the front court, get rid of him and just have two like rotation level guys and will that satisfy what they need at this point because that's kind of the level

he's playing at. I saw a stat where he has as many field goals made, field goals made as he does turnovers. And I think that crystallizes it altogether. We're just like the reluctance to shoot, but also isn't as sharp in some of the handoff decision making stuff that you expect for him offensive. Yeah.

But the erring of grievances, I think is allegedly supposed to like bring about some good tidings and like solve some things. I think that was the original concede or at least we can go with it. So perhaps that will work for them and perhaps it will work for us in this exercise because we're hoping that

our airing of grievances will fix some things in the NBA or just like get it out in the open so we can just start to come up with solutions. Yeah, I just want to see these things exposed. You know, just called out, just put right out in front of all of us to consider, to mull over to glare at occasionally.

I feel like they deserve that, these things. It's therapeutic. is what it is. Rob, do you want to go with yours first? I would love to. Janice onto de Kumpo, you are too big a superstar and too large a man

to hide behind your agent and it's getting embarrassing. Sheesh. I mean, like, the whole dance around, like, I personally have not had a conversation with the Bucks, and I personally can't control

what my agent does as far as navigating my trade future. Like, you're too good for this. Like, he's too good. and too important, and in the grand scheme of things, we're talking about one of the greatest players to ever play in the NBA. Why are you pretending like you don't have this power? When you were in one of the unique situations where everyone would kind of get it.

I think even a lot of Bucks fans at this point would look around at the team, which has been good at some things, but ultimately not good enough on balance to support contention around Yonis. They would get it. I think Bucks fans would get it. I think the NBA at large would get it. I think the brotherhood of players certainly would understand. It's okay if you're a.

and have been in Milwaukee as long as you have to want to try something else. And the fact that he seems to want that on some level, but also feels so conflicted about it that he won't embrace it out in the open in literally any capacity. I just think it's such a bad look and the refusal to claim ownership of his situation is bad superstarring as far as I'm concerned. I think it's just such a hard brand pivot for him that you can imagine why he would have some reticence to do that because everything that he's done, and he's one of our former, you know, everything about Janice off the court

that has sort of built his personality, the charm of his personality. You know, we love the fire and the things and him yelling at Ben Simmons and saying he's a baby, all that stuff is great, and he's proven himself repeatedly

on both ends of the court. He's an excellent two-way player. It's still very good. But it's like, the off-court stuff just kind of thrust him into the Akeem-el-Lajuan sort of stratosphere, in my opinion, and Tim Duncan kind of thing,

where it's just, never ever fills the air with that kind of nonsense he never ever seems self-serving in a way and he's the ultimate culture guy and maybe maybe they are having conversations behind the scenes about like this is a will this is a worthy trade off to kind of trade what you're talking about rob which is like for people who are paying it close attention i don't even know that the average fan is even paying attention to that what you're talking about ultimately it's about like yonis is this you know salt of the earth guy ultimate teammate guy never ever, ever, you know, causes any of that bullshit to distract the team. And I'd imagine that's why

they're being so careful about it at the end of the day. I'm just getting major Anthony Davis leaving New Orleans flashbacks where he wants his cake and eat at two basically, where he wants to follow all the traditional steps that other superstar players have laid out, but is so clearly doing it in a way where it's almost like he's checking a box after he says the right things. Like AD had that thing. I think it was that All-Star weekend. It was like, well, I'll play, put out a nice little Instagram and everything will be fine, but it was very transparent about how, like, he was doing that specifically to try to mend fences with anyone in New Orleans that might be upset by this.

With, with Yannis, it just feels like everything is, is inevitability at this point. And I don't even totally get why he's walking the line at this point, because, like, the team is, like, not doing well. The writing is on the wall. We get reports from Shams every couple weeks. And so I think he almost thinks, like, the PR can pay, paper over people's intuition about these certain things. Like people can sniff this out.

And if anything, the people around you, the PR people who are manipulating this thing, should be telling you that because now it's starting to turn on you a little bit. Well, I mean, they just seem to have lost feel for the situation. Like, there was also the trickling report a couple weeks ago that Janus, in light of all these trade rumors, had like addressed the team and quieted them all. And then when asked about that, all of his teammates are like, what are you talking about? He never has had that conversation with us.

We never had like the big heart to heart in the locker room. That's not a thing that happened. If you want to do it, if you want to be the steadfast guy who says all the right things, you can do that. But you need to actually participate in every part of that process and not just stand in front of the media and say, oh, this stuff absolutely never happened. When it strains credulity to ever believe that a player like Janus in this spot would never have even looked at another team.

Like we know empirically that's not true. And so it's almost like he's operating maybe this kind of serves. the Duncan comparison, Kyle. It's like he's living in like a 2002 media landscape and we're out here with the minute-to-minute Sean's updates. Yeah, he also had that quote recently where like he's the hottest chick in the game because everybody's talking about this. It's just like talking is not helping him. Like I also think it like we're expecting too much from these athletes that they could be as finally manicured and as precise as like a movie star or even LeBron James. And I think one of the reasons LeBron was able to execute these sorts of maneuvers and being able to

finagle his way to whatever destination he wants in a way that only upset people in Miami. And after that, everyone was almost too scared to even go at him at that point was because LeBron is very good at this. He talks almost like a political figure and is able to manipulate the way that he's talking about things, almost a Machiavellian sort of approach. And Yan is just like isn't on that level. He's too busy like doing Instagram lives about and saying like pretty bawdy things about like what he's doing with his wife and all this other stuff.

And so it's like, play to your strengths almost. You do that on the court. Maybe think about that when it comes to the public perception game. One can dream. But in the meantime, I will be grieving and griping about every step of this process because it really isn't even how long it's drawn out. Like we've seen almost every superstar saga gets stretched out to more or less these lengths, sometimes even longer.

That's fine. Like we can do this for a couple more months or even longer if you would like. I just want him to be a little more honest and transparent about the situation. And granted, I want to acknowledge there's things that play. can't outright say without risking being fined, without risking penalty from the actual punishment from the league, not asking for those things. I'm just asking for a little bit more human-to-human interaction

from a guy who, as you're saying, Justin, has sort of purported to be the every man superstar despite the fact that he is built in a way that no one else on the planet basically ever has been before. The no comment is right there for you. That's fine, too. I would be cool with the no comment. Yeah.

I'm here for as long as I'm here. I'm going to give my best to be a. buck like something like that is totally fine yeah um all right Kyle what about you do you have a grievance uh I have a broader one um this is just about the way the game is presented um on broadcasts um I just want to put out an appeal I'm not going to name me names here but I'm just want to put out an appeal to all broadcasters to just keep it simple I don't we don't like I think there needs to be a major dial back in like actually terminology and just going into the minutia of the labels of certain things that are happening

on the court. I just think there's this urge to elevate the discourse and the quality of the discussion that has been driven a lot by the blog community that's gotten into analytics. And I think everybody has kind of done their part to sort of make terminology. And I just think the quality of the discussion on that front is very, very high. don't need it to be driven by the people who should be the simplest marketers of the game. It just drives me fucking nuts when I'm watching a game. And they're like, pistol action into blah, blah, blah.

Number one, what I said before, number two, you're stepping on the toes of the color commentator who should be the person who pulls you to the side. And it's like, hey, this is kind of what this means. You know, like that's what that means. Just tell me what's going on in the court. It just drives me insane. I don't know if you all notice this. But when I'm watching games, I'm like, just be simple. Good Lord.

Like, it's madding. Kyle, you're not naming names. I would like to page Mark Jones to the courtesy phone to hear this particular grievance. Again, I think it comes from a really sincere place about wanting to engage with the game in earnest terms based on what's happening on the floor. And the best version of a broadcaster

is someone who understands what a pistol action is. There are also someone who can then decipher it for a casual audience, or as you're saying, leave the air for the color commentator to jump in and fill that void. It reminds me a lot of, You remember when Carson Daly used to get dinged for modulating, like, how he talks about things based on who he's talking to. And the response was always like, well, when he would talk to like a rapper, it would be different than how he would talk to like a rock star.

And he would try to like almost switch based on whoever he was, his personality, his delivery. You can kind of guess where we're going. Yeah, code switching Carson Daly does not sound like it would go great. Yeah, I didn't want to say it outright, but yes, that's what he was doing. But then they will tell you, I don't know who then. is, but like people who will drop like random bits of information, that it's actually a sign of intelligence to, to switch based on who you're talking to. At the very least, you're recognizing that. It reminds me a lot of that where it seems like there's a certain credence to being able to

spot off like buzzwords like that. And so people are falling to. So I don't necessarily want to ding them for it, but I agree with you. It does feel really superficial. Yeah. I think there's, there's a fine line where you never want to talk to the, talk down to the audience, right? You never want to over-explaining the most basic stuff. But it's also a function of like what broadcast are you talking about? Is this the game-to-game local broadcast where the people have a connection to you, the viewers have seen you five, ten, maybe 20 times already this season? Or is this a Christmas Day game where most of the people watching the game, I would venture,

are not average regular everyday basketball fans. And so that's where the modulation needs to happen. And maybe you need a way to walk through or explain some things. But as far as this stuff goes, like, I find the NBA on NBC walk through on the basketball court with Dirk and Nash and Eudanis and Blake and those guys to be a much more effective version of, oh, I'm just going to drop the terminology and you're going to know that I know what I'm talking about. I think there's just such a divide between saying the name to say the name versus actually explaining the concepts that a viewer might find really helpful. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul. Tis the season to be boosting on Fandul because this year you're getting

seven straight days of holiday rewards, each one waiting in the app for you to unwrap. Every day brings a new way to play, so keep checking in to see what drops next. And it all leads to the Christmas Day special where you can get something extra special. So we're looking at those Christmas Day games, a couple good ones on the slate here.

I'm looking at Spurs Thunder, which is probably the marquee game of the night. I really like the Spurs plus 11.5 as we're reading this off on Tuesday afternoon. That's a lot of points to be laying. I know the thunder are pretty dominant, but spurs look pretty good the last time around, so give me the spurs in that one.

And with Fandul, they are seven days of gifts in one big finale. Head to Fandual.com slash Ringer MBA to get in the holiday spirit. Fanduel, play your game. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

Optin required, bonus issued as non-witrable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wage or amount. See terms at sportsbook.fandual.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-dash-help.com. Call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Yeah, I think they're a little like, you know,

we can pull off the interstate of the basketball discourse and pull off in the, and intentionally go find the things like Eudonis and Dirk and Blake in the studio. I think those have been fantastic. And some of that's bringing over the stuff that was on NBA TV. But I actually think some of those have been even more high quality. I've been really, I thought Eudanis has done great, honestly. He's been a nice surprise for me. Not that I didn't expect him to be good,

but I just, I don't think I'd ever heard him talk in specifics about some of the things that he's been talking about. He's a really good communicator. I really like that broadcast crew overall, or I guess the in-studio crew. I think all of them work well. There's probably like one too many of them. I wish it was more of like three people who were analyzing this. So each guy got more time.

I know this is a common gripe amongst the ringer. But I don't totally get like the in studio aesthetic where they're just like in a smoking lounge or something. Like what would you like it to be? Literally smoking is what I would find. Well, there's also like alcohol bottles in the back there. And so I think they're trying to play on this being almost like a speak easy. I actually don't mind the clothing things. I've heard people gripe about that

where they're not dressed in suits but they are classed up to what like a normal 30 something celebrity would wear. That doesn't bother you so much but it's almost like you went a little too far after that. Well, first of all, I think the bottles are probably contractual. Like that's UD's brand of tequila back there and they got to have it a shot or else everyone's going to get mad.

Yeah. But I mean, here's the thing. You don't want it to be the totally like antiseptic studio floor with the desk and the normal stuff. So it's like I get what they're going for in a more casual dress-down environment and the set to match. Is there some fine-tuning that can be done? Absolutely. But I think the vibe is more or less where they want it to be, which for a first-year product on a major new broadcast player, I think that's a pretty big achievement in itself.

It reminds me a lot of Jimmy Kimmel when he started where it's like he tried to do away with the suits. And I guess Seth Myers is doing some of this too. Then he ultimately just defaulted to like the typical presentation of a talk show. It's like, oh, you could do something different without completely upending the entire sort of approach there. This isn't kind of what we're talking about, but I had this down too as like a side grievance to one I'm going to bring up a little bit later. But did you notice Adam Silver taking a jab at ESPN on the Amazon broadcast? It was essentially like complimenting Amazon but was clearly trying to say you're doing it right and ESPN is not doing it right. And I don't disagree with them.

Like I think ESPN's broadcast is pretty shabby, especially the in studio. I think finally they have a pretty good number one crew with Legler joining them. But I just, this is different than when we're talking about. But like it just seems like silver and a lot of people's understanding of what broadcasting should be is that the ESPN stuff is negative and we have to go overly positive. And I want to just be careful with everyone here and just think that we're not a state run media where we have to just completely glorify everything in the way that the NFL does. And I think that's probably where he's getting it from. I think this can get really dicey pretty quickly if we all want to be complicit

or just expect people to be complicit in the product and only want it to be upholding like the brilliance of these people and like almost like glorifying like them as these humans. It's like there's an in-between zone that we can do here. That doesn't suit anybody except for Adam Silver and the stakeholders

in the league, right? If you want just like puff piece after puff piece, I get why that would appeal to you on a certain level. I think the the de-espianification of the broadcast experience, to me is less about positivity and negativity and more about, are we going to talk at all about what is happening on the floor? And if the whole pregame segment is 60-minute chunks leading into commercial breaks, and during that 60-minute chunk, we are only talking about who is

available via trade, you have all day, including a daily NBA show to talk about those things. It's not like there isn't a forum for it. You can absolutely dig into the transaction game anywhere you want to. But on the game broadcast, I kind of would like them to set up the game. And so I feel like that is the gesture that both NBC and Amazon have gone after.

It's like, yeah, it's a little schmaltzy to do like the, the Bob Costas, like pregame essay sometimes. But also it kind of works on me. And if nothing else, as like a table setter,

I like, that's more of what I want than like digging into the nuts and bolts of who is going to be eligible to be moved via the trade machine at this particular moment in time. I'm feeling the Holy Spirit when you just start. I just think

I think we talked about this at our Ringer MBA summit like before the season that it's so antithetical to what makes the league work and makes it romantic whenever they do the stuff that you're talking about, which is just essentially like the gossip of players changing teams,

which I'm guilty of that too. Oh, sure. On trade deadline day, I'm just like I just want something to fucking happen. I don't care what it is. You know, like, let's go. But I think number one, the narrative stuff. is the really intoxicating stuff that draws people in. It drew me in when I was young.

Like the cost of essays, it influenced my approach to how I even do my own work. Like, that's the kind of stuff that I really enjoy. But I think otherwise, you know, you're talking about the negativity. I think the show, they've got to, they've got to continue to find ways to get into that sort of danger zone between being brutally honest. Because, you know, that clip about, you know, where Blake calls out John Morant, you know, that went viral. people really love that. They're like, oh, we're being honest about this kind of stuff. But the highest highs I think of like back in the day when I was watching was like Bill

Walt and calling out Shaq, Shaq got pissed at him like that. There were real consequences for that. I don't think you ever forgave him for that. But it was Shaq needed to hear it. Like I just think those are the types of things that really elevate it. And I hope they continue to pursue it. I don't know how you do it because I feel like the whole league and the players are more connected than ever in terms of, you know, you can like look down and get a text.

Maybe like two seconds later from whoever you call out. but I hope that we have like producers in place that will continue to facilitate and allow things like that to happen. If we're going to get some state media leanings, the version that I want is Udonis Haslam being like fucking pissed at the heat art rebounding to his standards

and not the version where it's like, oh, the refs really screwed us this game. You know, it's like they're ultimately, they've done, I think they've done a really good job of picking their spots with that kind of like very specific criticism of a star, of a team, of a moment. And it doesn't come off just in like, the inside guys where it's like,

this is clearly the first time you've seen this team play all year and you're picking, you're just like taking a big swing for the sake of it. It just feels a little more earned. That's true. I ultimately think that

probably nobody watches pregame or halftime shows anyway because they're probably watching this on an illegal stream or they're just not as plugged into that. They're flipping over to like two different second screen experiences simultaneously. To watch group chat, I assume.

100%. and then going through the backlogs and listening to them again. But this is probably like a one percenter thing, and I guess if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably doing the same thing as well. Since we're talking about league business, I have one too, kind of in this vein.

Adam Silver, I think he stinks. Okay, walk us through it. What do you not like? I think he cruised for a while by getting a couple early wins and easy wins on his ledger. I think the Sterling thing just kind of, sending off a slum lord quite literally,

like definitely put some, some like good will on your resume there. And then like he kept stacking things that seemed to be in line with the culture that worked well. But practically since the bubble and a little bit after, he's trying to make this pivot to someone who's more about business. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of his stakeholders, the owners who are effectively his bosses in all this,

which is important to remember whenever he's doing something and whenever the league is doing something, that Silver has to respond to his bosses, who are the owners. I just feel like he's trying to be more about the bottom line and the dollars and cents in the way that the NFL is. And it's been a tough pivot. And I also think he's trying to meld that approach, the business savvy one, with still being the previous guy who's about the right things, who's more progressive

in his ideas. And I just don't think that they're congruous. Like I think that they clash a lot of times and he wants to have them both ways. And so we get situations where recently a lot of scandals are unfolding. We're gambling. The Terry Rozier thing, obviously the Clippers thing. And he's giving first and foremost a pretty tried and true PR line of like, well, we're really doing our due diligence. We're going to do this investigation. And we really need to make sure we're getting this one right. And then months and months go by. And they're just hoping nobody says anything. But these are so big that I think it's very clear

that he's trying to buy time in order to find the right approach. I don't think there is a right approach, just fucking make a decision and go from there. There's also this other stuff happening where he's constantly borrowing from other leagues. And I think that's fine if you want to have influence and like take things from other places. But like he's clearly obsessed with soccer. And a lot of the new things that they've been trying, I have been soccer leaning the cup first and foremost. But also like he's extending into the Euro league right now, which takes away from expansion

domestically. And it's just like, I don't know. The thing that really kind of grinded my gears was. was the like, let's go to Duke for the NBA Cup final. I'm just like, that's their thing. That's a college thing. You don't need to keep borrowing from other sports and like other leagues. Like, can we just be more adventurous in trying to come up with things?

Frankly, I was thinking, Kyle, about the game they had in college on an aircraft carrier. Do you remember? Like, I can't believe they fucking did that first and foremost because you have a little bit of spittle on the court and people freak the fuck out in the NBA right now. Imagine like right next to the ocean. But like, what about something like that where there's a completely new? environment, like an outdoor court, for instance, and go to Venice Beach or one of the famous ones in Rucker and play a game there.

Why do we always have to borrow from other places? Yeah, Justin, you've been saying off Mike a lot. You just really wanted the NBA to have more of a military industrial complex kind of presence. More spittle. Yeah. That's right. More camo uniforms, too. I mean, I like that eventizing, especially for regular season games.

Yeah, host them in different cities, different venues. Let's mix it up. Let's try some different things that are unique to the NBA. I agree with basically everything you're saying, JV, and especially as it relates to taking the NBA Cup to these hollowed venues of college basketball. Kyle, please cover your ears. You're better than them.

Like, this is the best basketball league. You don't need to do the thing that the lesser basketball league does. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. I wonder, though, with Silver, how much of this is our fault? That when the Sterling stuff happened in particular, how much did we project,

oh, this guy's about the right things. And we should have accepted from the jump, oh, this is an opportunistic business-minded man who's a consensus builder and will always be driving the league's bottom line relative to anything else. And any other part of it is really just marketing. And I wonder how much of that is our fault

as much as it is his. I think there are a lot of things at work here. I mean, when did Stern leave? It was what year was that? I mean, I'm blanking on the year that his last year. Early aughts. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, Silver ultimately is the first social media era commissioner.

So he's under, he's in a situation to receive unique pressure that, you know, Stern on a day-to-day basis. I don't know that he ever really, even though he was around the league. He didn't get the like direct, you know, swelling of community, you know, pressure in that sense. But then also I think that he is faced with a different kind of set of problems, whereas like Stern, you know, as much grief as he. got for, you know, holding up the league in the terms of the way it was marketed because the public just seemed, or they were accused of being deeply uncomfortable with the league being predominantly black. You know, those things. I mean, accused feels generous. Like, they put in a fucking dress code. Well, no, I mean, I'm saying their fear of the public being ready for the league

or just whatever was driving their marketing, their response to all those things, you know, yeah, they lagged and they were way, they were behind on those things. Even though Stern, behind the Dean's fought a lot of battles, I think, that were pretty, pretty genuine and righteous. He was being told that, like, no one would, no one's going to want to support your lead because it's so black. And Stern was just like, this is, you know, would just push forward. But, I mean, Silver is just faced with new, with new challenges in terms of, like, where do we go? Because we're kind of stuck between, you know, they're never going to catch the NFL. They're never going to catch, you know, Premier League soccer or whatever it is like that.

So it's kind of, you're trying to, you're trying to, you're trying to. you're trying to chase something and level up and I think he has no choice. So it's a combination of just unique pressures, I think, that are kind of overall making him look a little bit flaccid because he has to be responsive in a way that Stern didn't really have to. I really would have been interested to see Stern

in this modern era just because he just had such major Palpatine vibes and such major, like, I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want vibes in a way that Silver doesn't really seem to have. No. Yeah, I appreciate creative thinking, and being progressive is like your base approach to some of these things.

Like that's good for a league. You want someone who's going to push things forward and try to come up with things that other people aren't. But he's gotten to the point where we've lost sense of like the core values of the NBA by changing so much. Like if you're changing every little thing, the All Star game, the logos on the NBA floor and just like all these little things that seems like it makes him overreactive to the online discourse in a way that I don't think is beneficial to them.

We shouldn't be pining for the years, as Kyle is alluding to, of law and order with David Stern. I shouldn't see so much reaction of like, I wish Stern was here to just like lay the law on this guy. We should be like. Force lightning. I always imagine Stern force lightning people. Right. I just, I think there's a nice balance between you shouldn't like your commissioner. Like I can't think of another commissioner where I like them in any sport, but you shouldn't

outright just think that this guy doesn't have a good handle on being able. to problem solve, even small things like the All-Star game. Yeah. I mean, maybe the DAP was the canary in the coal mine. As soon as he became the dapping commissioner, it's like, maybe this is, maybe we were going down a dark path. You know, maybe this is not what a commissioner should be doing. I do, you know, in taking what Kyle, what you were saying about this very specific, very online moment. And JV., some of your broader criticisms about how reactive that Silver has been, I just like, I keep zeroing in on the betting stuff. And like, this is a, this is being treated as yet another thing that would

come up in the NBA season and it is not. Like, this is a battle for the, this is a battle for the sole of professional sports. It is a crisis in professional sports. I don't disagree with you, but I guess I tend to ascribe that more to sports overall rather than the NBA specifically. I guess the one wrinkle is the NBA has particular problems that other sports don't with the daily betting stuff where there are like lines on very, like, particular things that seems to lend itself to shenanigans. But I guess that's another point against them where it's like, that's an easy way to clean that up.

Just get rid of that stuff. Yeah. I mean, there was just some new kind of like in league legislation this week about the disclosures around who is going to be available for these games on what timelines. It's that stuff that I think is good in cleaning up some of the ambiguity around what is ultimately like a huge business consideration for the league. I'm less concerned about those elements and more concerned about the Terry Rozier. style elements and like not know going into a huge betting like partnership with the league itself

and not at all considering what do we do when this gets manipulated like not having a plan in place before that even starts to me just like a really gross oversight of exactly the level of like the level of complication that they are now dealing with and have welcomed in welcomed in for the sake of getting all this money i just kind of wonder me in about like 15, years from now what we're going to look back and say about this era because this is just like a minor anecdote. The way this has sort of invaded day-to-day life, I think is fascinating because I was in a store near our house recently and I was picking up for a party. I was picking up some libations and I struck up a conversation with the cashier. There was somebody in front of me

who just was like repeatedly buying and betting. And it went on for a long time. time. And I was, I just couldn't help myself. And I was just like, I was like, on a day-to-day basis, I was like, how much money do you see people burning on this stuff as opposed to alcohol? And he was like, it's not even close. He was like, it's betting. It's gambling. And I just had a moment where I was just like, man, this just feels like a like fucking societal rot that we are just kind of like, I don't know. Like people, people who are, who are like benefiting from it. I mean, we're all staring into the abyss together in more ways than one right now. Having said all this, I don't know if you guys saw the Powerball number, 1.7 Bill.

Yeah, I'm going to buy it on that. I'm going to buy it on that. I'm going to buy one in like 20 years or whatever, but like I'm in baby. They've got you back in. It's maybe less like it inherently just we need a like regulatory revolution with it. I think it's kind of in the way that like smoking or whatever. I mean, you know, just. Seriously.

Yes. Something, something has to happen because it's just it's bothersome. So, yeah. And that, I mean, that's, That's why it's going to be one of the biggest tests, if not the biggest test of Adam Silver's NBA. I think if you zoom out, when I zoom out and I close my eyes and I think about Adam Silver's tenure as commissioner, Sterling stuff comes up front and center.

Second is like the feigned, like actual care of like group economics jerseys. You know, it's like that kind of thing. Bubble stuff. Yes, everything surrounding the bubble. I mean, to be fair, successfully pulling off the bubble and maintaining. a sporting event at a time where no one else was, was an incredible level of production, but also ridiculous and some of the messaging

around it. Guys getting suspended for getting door dashed orders across the line and lighting people in. Have you guys seen Eddington? You should watch them. I watched that. I love that. Yeah, that was a flashback.

Anyway, proceed. I don't want to derail. Oh, no. Just that the third thing is unquestionably this whole gambling fiasco and what will become of it. And we don't know the resolution of all these things yet. We don't know what the league will ultimately do

with players like Tara Rozier. or the teams that are kind of like put in a bad spot because of his behavior and his actions, there are no easy answers to JV to what you were talking about as far as like dragging their feet on trying to find the perfect solution. There isn't one and they're never going to find one. And so maybe that is at further evidence to your cause of like you just got to do something at some point. Yeah. These feel like flashpoint moments for his entire tenure.

And we'll see how he handles them. I haven't loved it thus far. But ultimately his decisions are what are going to ring out, I think, years and decades down the line here. All right, Rob, you want to go with one of years now? I'm just going to go with much less important. We can't follow up Adam Silver and sports betting by leaning even harder into bigger picture issues. So this is more of a very personal hobby horse for me.

There are too many three-point celebrations. I'm all for personal expression. Do you call them sellies? It's a sub-point. No one should be calling them cellies. Sub-point to that, grievance pointed at myself. Grammar and vocabulary are more descriptive than prescriptive. At least I believe that.

and so who am I to stand in the way of quote unquote progress in terms of Selly's. I guess if that's what you want to call them, I bless you on your journey. I will not be doing it personally. I just think to be, to get a three point celebration, you need to be like,

I was invited to the three point contest level of shooter. You can't just be a guy on the team. Signature, like not like celebrating in and just raw note. Celebrating in and of itself is fine, but you think there are too many guys with like signature celebrations is what you're saying. I think the signature part underlying.

bolded is where things really went off the rails. Six ellies is what we call around the... We simply don't. No, absolutely not. When it was just guys reacting in the moment, I hit a shot and I'm celebrating, that was cool. When it's very much now, like, I practice this move in the mirror every day for the moment that this hits,

and now I get to do my signature like threes, like reverse. What are we doing? Why are we doing that? Can I... Not everyone gets their own three-point celebration. I would love to hear the counter. I think they're really fun. and you're just doing that whole my glasses thing. I'm just like

that just made your grievance even better. I really fucked it on that one. I shouldn't have enacted it. But the first thing that came to mind was this happened like yesterday or two days ago. There was a young girl, I guess, who had a viral video about Jalen Brunson. It was doing like the three on her face and just saying Brunson in an incredibly adorable way.

And then she ultimately got to meet Brunson and show him like his little doll she had of him. Like, that just warms the heart. And like, And so if something is like a signature of a player, yeah, it's literally a doll of Jalen Brunson. I don't even know if they sell these. Like maybe they made it themselves.

I don't know. It's amazing. Uh, questions. Yeah. It was plush. It wasn't of the Barbie variety. Not talking about Mattel stuff,

but I don't know. Maybe we should all get one for Christmas. But this is the thing. Like, you're really playing into my point here because Jalen Brunson obviously gets his own celebration. My point is not about the Jalen Brunson's. It's like,

does Isaac Akoro get his own three-point celebration? I just, Does he have one? I don't know, but maybe he does. Name names. Who's the most egregious one that gets on your nerves? Go ahead. See, it's not even a name names thing.

It's just the volume. I'm just watching a game and I'm seeing arrows shot. I'm seeing every manner of three fingers in relation to your face, possibly being displayed. I just don't think we're pushing the celebration, the cellie, if you will, forward at all. Like, you know, we're not doing anything revolutionary. We're just iterating on the same shit we've all been doing and yet claiming it as if it's some signature thing. I wanted to point out that I'm absolutely a hypocrite because I didn't name names when it came to the broadcast thing.

I wanted to point out people, I'm aware of that. Thank you for the self-grievance. First of all, yeah, I mean, it is hilarious. I mean, simple stuff like the mellow like that, like just a simple, subtle, like, I hit a three. That's fine. Yeah, I mean, if we're doing like choreography, that you better be, you have to reach a like a certain level of,

it's sort of like the Draymond thing. Like there's a tolerance to skill ratio that you have to kind of hit and maintain, you know, if you're like, you know, staff level, nobody is. But if you're in that upper tier of three-point shooter, yeah, you can do something. Like, Jamal Murray doing the arrow thing. He's been doing that for a long time. It's whatever. So it's college.

Yeah, he did it. Yeah. I disagree. I think we shouldn't be rating this based on the quality of the player, but the quality of the celly. Like, I think we should be thinking about this more in terms of creating. Yeah. I just, for instance, I think about Deniabia, as I so often do these days. When are you not?

Yeah, that's a wire jar right there. That was really shoehorned in here. I'm going to flip this on you guys. He does the, like, the John Cena, I can't see you hand in the face thing for multiple things at this point. That's just not that all that creative. A lot of guys do that. And it's such a like a popular thing.

And I'm glad that he has something, but he could do better. And so I think we should just be embracing the guys who really. come up with something new and inventive and shaming the people that don't. I think we're all in agreement on that. And frankly, I would love to see, I don't know if you guys caught Thomas Bryant foolishly trying to do the too small gesture,

but then falling over as he crossed half court while doing it the other night. I would love to see someone the next time they try to too small somebody do the Thomas Bryant. Like do the too small and take the tumble and then jump back on their feet and just get back on defense. I just think we need to get a little more postmodern

with this. And we're a little stuck in the very specific, I'm just going to put up three fingers in some variation, celebration. I want to see the creativity. I think Steph really did usher in the era. We're definitely, we've seen a major, major uptick in I hit a three, I turn and like chirp at the bench. That has just gone to the moon. I don't remember that happening that much when I was growing up watching basketball,

or the like turn your back, you know, as it's in the air. I feel like that has gone up a whole lot. Speaking just for myself, Rob, you're going to hate this. but if I'm feeling really good and I just made a three, I'll do like a, I'll do like this, like I hit two, you know, I'll do like a bird.

I might, or, you know, I'm a little bit, if I'm feeling good, I'll definitely throw some three point celebrations. You know, do some skip,

just wave those three fingers around. I'm not about it. You sound like a real cool guy, I got to say, you know, just an adult man waving around his fingers like feathers. You know, it seems really cool.

I'll be honest. I want to see some more antagonizing going on. It feels like an extension of the baseball stuff, like the bat flips, just talking shit whenever you get like a totally normal hit now. Like it seems like people are more open about talking shit to each other and multiple different arenas. And so leads to more fights.

Yeah. Not the worst thing in the world. So be it. Okay. Kyle, you want to do one of yours? This is lighthearted. Can I go,

can I go something like more, more lighthearted? This is more, this is another one in the presentation. Mine was pretty serious. You know, I think you need to really fit the theme. I do not give a flying,

fuck about trampoline dunking. They need to get rid of it in games at halftime. I don't care. You're on a trampoline and you bounce tight. Great. I understand that that takes some balance and stuff like that. I just like, why are we still doing this? I like, no trampoline basketball league has succeeded ever. You know, it's like it's fun for like five minutes.

And you're like, oh, okay, like let's just move on. I think I've complained about this in the past. But I just don't, I'm not entertained by it. Whenever they come down and they're flexing and they're, oh, my God, wow. You know, like, I don't, I don't care. Like, it's just not anything. Maybe I'm just really jaded with the halftime performances in general, but I don't know. I don't know where you guys on trampoline dunking.

Am I a mega scrooge with this? Well, we watch players in the air dunking and marvel at them for 48 minutes a game. Why do we have to see lesser athletes need a trampoline to do the same thing? Like, it's obviously a bigger point in a bigger distance. But like, it's just a lesser version of what we're watching. And so just to clarify, the two of you think that those people should be fired. The industry should be wiped out. Well, I mean, if you really want to take this a step farther, I was at a game last night.

And I do often marvel at the amount of just like bells and whistles that go off as soon as like play stops, especially because there are so many goddamn stoppages with reviews at this point, which is a whole other side topic we can get into. Honestly, we need another podcast for this. But like as soon as play stops, it's like, get the music pumping. there's dancers and there's can. It's just like, it's like a fucking forlorn fire. I'm just like, I don't think we need these things anymore.

We have so much stuff assaulting us via like our phones and social media and all this other stuff. I don't, I think we actually need less just of everything at an end of the area. I mean, less of everything in modern life in general, I think would be great. But yeah, I think to the trampoline point specifically, we're on to something that it's just a lesser version and a worse version of actual basketball. And why would that be the benefit of, you know, taking this little. breath in the game. I'm a little more allowing when it's just like a timeout. When teams try to use this as like actual

halftime entertainment, like I know you, it's hard to book these things. Like, misleadingly difficult to book these things for an entire season when everyone is fighting for Red Panda every night out. There's only so many amazing slod decks out there, right, right? Well, I mean, you know. Red Panda. I for one, do not want to watch Amazing Sladeck die on the Hardwood.

And I know, I'm worried. I'm going to watch it. I'm so worried, man. I just damn. I just am. Panda was at an NFL game last night. I think she was at the Niners Colts game. And I'm like, wow, she's even leaving the NBA. Like, what the fuck can we keep for ourselves anymore?

What does it say about me that I feel betrayed by that? I do. No. Like, I honestly feel like, I'm like, how dare Red Panda be gainfully employed by another sports league? I will say I was at, I was at a Kentucky game and the amazing Scooby or whatever it is. It's Christian and Scooby, right? He was there, and it was funny to, it was so funny.

It was amusing to see a crowd that had not seen him. Genuinely, like, I'm very, very, very jaded, I guess on that front. I have another gripe about the arena experience. The freaking parachutes that come down from the top, they always land in the lower level. I just have a big problem with that. They should land in the upper level. They need to make an effort, magnetize them in some way so that they fly. I don't know what we have to do.

I'm just saying, if you're in the lower arena, you don't need a freebie like that. Somebody in the, some little kid in the top needs it. So they got to figure that out, man. You're extremely right. But it's like, how do you have the pageantry of watching the parachutes fall if they're not falling all the way to the lower bowl? So I think they need to let some parachutes fall. But then there's just somebody up there who's tossing out stuff to the upper bowl.

Because you're right that we can't have a class conspiracy here. Like, we don't support things like that. This is a real Hunger Games take where it's just like, why does the inner city get all the nice desserts? But you're right. They also don't fall into the media section, at least where I am in Portland. I'm like, I want to fucking knock somebody out trying to get a T-shirt that's two sizes too big. I want to see you and Danny Morang throwing bows.

Yeah. I think Danny would crush it. For a chick-fil-A sandwich. He's pretty strong. I actually have an arena one, too, if we're going to run this jag here. Turn the volume down. Now we're just an old man territory. See, it's old man, yes.

I admit that. But also, I think arenas are getting so used to piping in music that when the crowd is actually into it, this happened to me last night where the game got really tense, the Blazers came back, and all of a sudden, everyone's standing, everyone's cheering. But they were trying to raise the volume on top of that because they were still piping it in. I think it gets into this weird feedback loop of like, you think you're going to add more, but if anything, you're overwhelming the senses. And just like, just overall turn it down.

and if it's quiet sometimes, just eat it and do better. I fully support this take. I do think it's too loud in general. So, I mean, look, I am similarly old to you, and so we have to call that out. I think it's also not just them pumping up the music on top of the crowd noise.

It's a lot of these teams, a lot of these arenas, they're pumping in crowd noise too. Like, they're doing it on both ends. They're trying to supplement the excitement in the game and then top off the excitement in the game. And it's just too much. Like, the sensory overload, JV, you're absolutely right. It's just, it's way,

too much for a random weeknight in the NBA. And I'm not saying you should save it for the playoffs. Please don't do that either. Let all of this stuff breathe a little bit more. I really I can't OKC fans seem really genuinely into this. But one of my favorite things is just the like

what's it called? It's like the Vanegraff generator with like the static, but it's just the OKC logo and it's just like at some point in the game they just all look up at it and they're like, there it is. It's sending off sparks. That's one of my favorite things. And then one last thing, I will say something positive.

One of my favorite things in all of League Pass culture is the Memphis in-house arena guys, Pompadour. I don't know if you guys have seen this guy's big slick back. It's incredible. You should watch it. I don't know the dude's name. I'm sure he'll hear this now. But, yeah, so I was wanting to in on a positive note.

Those are two things that I like. I like Memphis's whole, like, Uber, basically. They got the wrestling stuff where Gris puts on that outfit. You got the whip that trick at the end there. Like, they play to, like, the, you know, like, the, a certain, like, personality of that audience that I think people can learn.

Yes, they are, they're the game ops. Five people who do the game. I know. But, like, they are the game ops gold standard for that reason. It's organic.

It's specific. It doesn't, like, so many other teams, when they try to go local, have the feel of, we are making our eighth city edition jersey and therefore need to pick,

like, something recognizable, but actually not recognizable. I never have that feel with anything Memphis does. Like, it always feels like you're going to a Grizzles game and nowhere else.

Do you guys have other NBA ones? Because I have some more holiday leaning and then just other stuff. I do have some other NBA ones. I guess more discourse related. I want to talk about assists, specifically assists. If a guy has the ball in his hands, I just don't care that he has six assists a game. I'm just kind of penciling it in. And so, yes, if you're getting into 8, 9, 10 category,

or if you're, say, a facilitating wing who all of a sudden, has eight assists, like that's notable. If you're just like a point guard who brings the ball up every time and gets six assists, that is like a matter of course. And we all need to accept that that is not a notable stat. Six assists just doesn't impress a problem. Well, it might. It depends on what you do.

This is the rust dilemma, right? I mean, like, you know, if somebody has 10 assists, you're like, oh, well, you know, the unsumperish player all this, that's his teammate job. Oh, well, I'm steering the ship. It's like, well, you had the goddamn ball the whole game. There's the home run assist that I think that is sort of a like, I don't know. I feel like the helio sort of movement in the past few years of the Hardens and then the trays and the Lucas and things like that. It's like, oh, we want to sort of laud their ability to get everybody going.

But there's also sort of a downside to. I don't know if this is exactly what you're alluding to Rob, where it's like, is the value of assist and assist the same if like you did all the work? And then at the very last second, if I couldn't score, I like threw it to you. And it's like, do you get as much credit for that? I don't know that you necessarily do. If it's like you've got the ball in your so much. Yes. I think you only get credit for it at the point where you are compromising the entire defense, right?

If you're trying to make a play, trying to make a play, trying to make a play, and all of a sudden there are three defenders around you and you're kicking out to a wide open shooter, then yes, that is like a, that's a real meaningful, created play that wouldn't have been there otherwise. If you're just dribbling around for 18 seconds and then dish off the ball like a grenade to a semi-open, shooter on the wing and they make it, I just think we should have even more discretion maybe in the assignment of these assists. I know there's already like a huge home court bias

as it relates to a lot of these things, but really we just need to be a little looser in general in terms of adjudicating. Did they actually contribute to the opening of that shot? See, I thought that's where you were going, where there's just too much home cooking even now where it feels like we're super sophisticated

about these stats because I'd look up sometimes, I'm like, that guy had eight assists. It seems like that was more. of like someone else creating that opportunity or they just made a pretty simple pass. I think that's something that I would like to see more of like adjudicating between like what was, that pass created the opportunity versus he just passed it to him and he scored. And it was wide open. It was a transition bucket whatsoever.

If anything, I think it should take away assists. Almost like we, I wish we did with rebounds that aren't contested. If a guy is just the only one there, I just think that like there's another level we can get to and it's not that hard to get there. NBA used to have contested defensive rebound as a stat, didn't they? I thought it was on the official site. I think it still is. It's just a little fuzzy sometimes. But yeah,

I mean, that's the trouble with all this stuff. At the point where you make it a little looser or more open to interpretation, is it as valuable comparing apples to oranges in that case. I'm sympathetic to those arguments. I'm just looking at like the Kevin Porter Jr. types. Kevin Porter Jr. has

the ball in his hands more than almost any superstar in the league. Like, going to get some assists because he has the ball in his hands a lot. And I'm not so moved by him getting seven assists when he has the ball more than like Anthony Edwards, for example. Yeah. All right, why don't we take another break and we come back. We'll get to the good stuff. All right, we're back. We did all the NBA stuff. A lot of content for there for you if you really want to dig in there. I have the really important matters at hand here. First and foremost, it's the holiday season. And I got to say, what the fuck is going on with mistletoe?

like was the guy who invented this just a real sexual deviant? Like, so I put up some twigs of time above your head and you gotta kiss me. You gotta kiss me. Like, that's fucked up. It's incredibly fucked up. I love this one because mistletoe on the one hand is just a plant, right? So it's like, it's always been there. And a guy saw it.

A guy saw it and made up the rule and there's no question it was a guy. And was like, yeah. 100% a guy, for sure. It's like when you watch a movie and the emotional sensitivity is just way off. You're like a dude wrote this for sure. Yes. I feel like we just wrote a Tim Robinson sketch. Like the guy who invented mistletoe feels like such a Tim Robinson character.

But you're right, Jaby, it's fucked up. I don't know why we're just allowing this to continue to exist. It's one of those traditions that, like, it had to be started, you know, hundreds of years ago. Because I don't think you could get that one going. I think it would be the, speaking of Tim Robinson, and it would be the equivalent of like the wristband party kind of a thing. It's just like, yeah, it's not. But even then, Kyle, it's like, do you really want to be kissing people in like the ages of the bubonic plague?

You know, it's like there's a sweet spot where we're post penicillin, but pre standards of consent. And that's where that's where mistletoe was invented. I just, there's a whole reckoning about that song, baby, it's cold outside, which. Yeah. Sure. But I got to be honest, like, baby, there's some sexual predators inside that I would be more worried about because this shit is fucked up. Take a half of this cloth.

I love that song. I don't know which day on the Advent calendar is the chloroform day, but it's one of them for sure. I got a few more here if you guys want to. Please, I would love to. You're off to a great start. Okay. So we did away with the word

moist because people were uncomfortable with that. Totally fine with that. But the word yummy in any context. needs to go. Like if we were just having lunch and we go through a half hour, 45 minute lunch, and it was really good. And I say to you guys, boy, that was yummy. That would be weird. Well, there's a couple things happening there. I think there is... Yum. The word is weird. And then you saying yummy specifically would be a big like,

you've been held hostage and are trying to get our attention. I agree with you, though. Why is anybody saying yummy? Wait, so are you pro- yum, but anti-yummy or anti-ym as well? All of it, but yummy is even worse. Yum is just like an exclamation point. Like, that's bad, but something about really leaning into it and bracing the m is not good on it. It's just not a natural. It's very much a like George Lucas dialogue type of word.

It's like nobody says yippie out loud, you know? Like I just, yum is one of those. My wife and I, part of our dynamic is we try to irritate each other on purpose. It's like a humor. We laugh a lot about how good we get at it. And one of the ones we jokingly say is yum, but we'll say yumbers just to try to piss each other off. And she's like, if you say that again, we're going to have a problem. You know, that's kind of what we're going with.

So no, no, never say, never say, yum. See, I feel like it's just kind of not passing the smell test for guys like us. But I would love to hear if there's anyone out there who's just like a staunch advocate of yummy to email us at bringergroup chat at gmail.com with what you think is the good you're putting in the world by saying yummy? I can imagine saying it to like my son. Ooh, that's yummy, isn't it?

But that's baby talk. Right. Right. I think that's the problem. It does convey a certain age range thing that is pretty unseemly. Also, there's a side part of this where it's like in potential

coitus situations. Like, you don't want to hear it there as well. Like, that was yummy. Or you look yummy. I have many follow questions. I got to go. I can't be here anymore. Just when I thought we had gotten to every depth of JV's personal life.

He goes from yummy to his mind goes to coyness situations. If we don't. I think it's more about like someone looking good. Like, oh, you look yummy. I've heard that before. Aimed at you? What? What?

Just get back to away slowly from that one. Come on. And tell other, yeah, wow. I got one or two more here. Please. Having to comment in order to get a recipe, like, what the fuck? Like, this is already, like, you're on Instagram.

They see a nice little recipe. I get served a lot of, like, pasta dishes and, like, this is the appropriate way to make a steak. And, like, I obviously watch all of those. But if you want the actual recipe, they don't put it in the caption. You got to comment something Then some fucking random person's gonna like DM you a recipe

What's going on there? I mean they're just fishing for engagement, right? So I agree from that perspective, it's definitely gross. Okay. But yeah, if you're posting a recipe video, It's got to be in the description. Like that feels like the least we can do for each other. Last one I have is that food shouldn't be served at a movie theater.

Okay, fuck you. No, stop. Why are you doing this? Well, specifically like dinner. Like, you're sitting in one of those comfy, like, layback chairs. Like, we're smashing two things together as George trying to put sex and eating together. It's just like these two things are good by themselves and we should leave them by themselves. Not everything should be combined as a co-ab where we put the fucking X in the middle of everything.

What's going on in your brain? I just got to know because sex and food, you did it there. Yummy and Coitus, you did it again. I just, I don't, I don't know what's going. This is like a verbal Roershack. Like for you, I just, I'm curious, Justin. I don't know. It's true.

So are we, are we ruling out popcorn? Are we ruling out candy? How loud is the popcorn? That's a key. Normal popcorn volume? What are you talking about? Can we legislate how, how loud of a chewer someone is? Like, I almost feel like you need to take a test.

Like, you need to have on your ID. Like, they have the real ID badge at this point. They have a DB meter. Yeah. Yes. And if you're chewing too loud where you're interrupting people's movie experience, you've got to go. No food. There's a DB cop who like holds up a mic and you have to like run your fingers through it. And they're like, you're sorry, no popcorn for you, ma'am. I think you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. We live in a world where people are taking flash photos of the screen at movie theaters, having full on conversations with their friends at normal speaking

volume. This is not a battle we can fight right now. You know, like we're just trying to get people to see movies. and not be complete assholes while they're doing it. Now, that said, is there a certain decorum if you're eating in a movie? Yeah, you got to wait for the explosion if you want to rip open that pack of milk duds or whatever. That just seems like, again, the least you can do. But popcorn, is popcorn really that loud? It's the lowest of the offenses. Okay.

But I think this is the battle that a lot of people are waging. Like, I would like people to go to movies. I go to a lot of movies every single year. It's one of my favorite things to do. But the movie experience oftentimes, especially in times of holidays, where a lot of people who don't typically go to movies are going. Like, they do not get the decorum. And I feel like that is slowly sliding as well as people just don't go overall.

And so, like, they only go once or twice a year. They don't know how the fuck to act. And it's making it worse. So the general take here regarding all of your grievances is just act like you've been here before. You know, don't say weird things. Don't do weird things. Don't make too much noise. Be respectful of your peers.

100%. I'm big on, you know, I'm a nachos at movies guy. And I know that those nachos are loud. So I know that at the outset, I need to make sure that I get those. They come in the bag. I got to make sure I make that transport early before we get going. We had a really good experience one time where I shamed my wife, not publicly in front of everybody,

but we had a conversation afterwards where big Mike and Ike's person and we were seeing Interstellar and there was a very quiet moment. And Meg had kept turning the entire box over. Just the cascading Mike and Iks in there. Like a fucking rainstorming. stick? No more. Yeah, I'm a big shusher. If people talk repeatedly in a movie, I will say something. Like, I'll be like,

I don't know. I'll keep upping the stakes as we go. I've surprisingly never shushed, but I have the impulse and I see for the entire movie. It's tough when you're fighting the battle of wanting to shush, but also wanting to be a more passive-aggressive person. And it's like, what am I supposed to do here? I'm going to glare at you. I'm going to be upset, but am I actually going to confront you in this theater? I don't know. I'm a little cowardly. I won't make it clear that it was from me. I was like, you know, oh, who said that? Wow.

Just throw your voice. These are the two wolves inside every podcast. The passive aggressive and the aggressive aggressive. I'm a little bit of a coward. I think we're finding that. Does anyone have any more grievances? Or I think we covered a lot of ground here. One, just like really small, somewhat basketball related grievance aimed squarely at myself. And Kyle brought this to bear on our young Coors podcast. I think I'm just over indexing on like, I saw Tyler Colick do one thing that annoyed me and decided I don't like Tyler Colick.

Oh, here he goes. He's coming back. I'm just saying, I got I got to check myself. I'm airing my own personal grievances with Rob, with my internal process that your Spencer Jones types, your Tyler Colick types, I got to get a reality check. I got to touch grass

before I'm really taking these guys to task. So that is my resolution for 2026. There's huge fuck them kid, kids energy for him. Now, granted, Tyler's 24. You know, he's not a kid, but, you know, just be a little more patient, Rob. God. It's not a generational thing. Condescend to college basketball. You condescend. It's all beneath you. Well, that's definitely beneath me and should be beneath you too, but I guess the guy's got to make a living. I think the two criticisms that you've levied recently shouldn't perhaps like turn you against being critical overall. I have anything,

I feel like you're overly open to, like, foibles and whatnot and lean the other way. Like, I wouldn't go to the other, like, just not doing this overall. Now I'm just seeing the two of you as the angel and devil on my shoulder. And J.B.'s like, no. Who's who? Yeah. Well, I mean, there was never really any question. But there is a delicate balance there that we all try to strike in terms of genuine fair criticism versus just, like, I anchored this because I saw it early.

and now I think that's who that player is and I confirm it every time I see it based on one little thing he does but I got to open myself up to the possibilities of the Tyler Colic universe. You know, like this is, it's a new year, it's a new day. I want to be a more open

podcaster and pundit, if you will. See, I don't think this is good. That openness, bad. Well, I think one of the beauties of basketball is your preference in style of play or players or whatnot It really is a preference. It really is like something you craft,

almost like an opinion about movies, for instance. You could have a good movie that just doesn't reach you in a certain way. And I don't want to lose that. I don't want to like a player based on reasons I can't really describe, but I'm going to go to bat firm every single time for no actually objective proof. Like, that's the beauty of basketball podcast. I mean, I'm not saying I'm going to lie to myself every day about players I don't actually like or appreciate.

I'm saying maybe I need to be more open-minded. it about what liking and appreciating a player even means. That one, this isn't totally fair, though, because you mentioned it that when we were talking about the young cores, I had the total different perspective of an advantage of forming an opinion over years about Tyler Colick. So I wasn't going off of just one game. But I was going to say, like, with the preferences of players thing,

I'm kind of a hilarious contradiction because the players that annoy, me the most when I'm trying to evaluate and decide how good they are are often the guys who play the way I personally play because I love to score. And it's one of those like as you get older, you're accepting you can't really do it kind of things. Like I can't really just score as a bit anymore. Anyway, I'm not that good a player, but that's a kind of a thing that's funny about me. We all want to score though, I think. I mean, this was, I remember this was always a thing that we would talk about with sharks too about like, would you rather be the like charles? Barclay scored but never quite won or the Robert Orry type who won everything, but like,

you're a role player. It's like, there's really no question you want to be the Charles Barkley. Like, and with all due respect to Robert Orr are the great winners who have kind of bounced around in more limited roles. Like, scoring fucking rules, and especially when you're playing basketball, it's, it's especially great. You do that because you couldn't be the other guy. Right.

You're resigned to that role. Yes. At that level. Right. Right. I have a couple I just fly through really quickly here I genuinely love

people who walk their dogs without leashes a lot of my like crimes in life I do a lot of dog walking so it's gotten to the point where I will just I'm sure the people who live near me near my park hate me because I will just I'll just be like they'll be like oh I make you are they friendly as your dog free

put your dog on a leash I'll just and just keep moving Do you ever do that not friendly not friendly? I should honestly I should yeah yeah There's a guy that I've like like yelled at because his dog like ran up to boogie and like took me out basically. Like I fell down because his dog. Yeah. So that guy.

Unaccepting. Yeah. Pick up gripes. I just have one pickup gripe I wanted to say really quickly here. People who insist on bringing the ball up the floor and pick up when there's zero chance that they're going to score or do anything. Like just there's, I don't know what that's about. There's like somebody at every gym that does that. Rob, have you experienced this?

You know what I'm talking about? Of course. But what do you want? them to do. Go run the baseline, be a cutter. I feel like it's okay to give people small but ultimately meaningless jobs if it makes them feel like they're contributing.

You're killing the break, man. No. Killing the break. Yeah. Yeah, if we're talking flow, a flow problem, then I'm sympathetic to what you're saying. Like, after a made basket and we're all just kind of like trotten up court anyway, I don't see the harm in it. Let Derek dribble. Like, we're not going to let him

shoot, you know, so you might as well let him get his, get his yahs out right now. It's a dead action. They're killing it. I'll do respect, but I'm not playing a role in a pickup game. I'm not in a fly, even though I'm going to make one from 12th. I mean, I appreciate the abandon, honestly. To be clear, I would much rather play with the guy who lets it fly every time than the guy who clams up and refuses to shoot every time.

Those guys drive me absolutely crazy. Yeah. Do we have, I have one last one that I actually do. Those were flybys. Let it really. Go for it. So I have a little son, as I've said, you know, millions and millions of times had nauseam. So I'm revisiting a lot of the Christmas classics.

And we watched Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer, the Claymation Classic. And I just want to say fuck Santa. Santa, not a visionary. You know, he... Not a visionary. Not a visionary. This is a guy who one night a year flies in utter pitch darkness in the cold across the globe. and he has this miraculous specimen get dropped into his lap,

this once-in-a-generation talent. He's a horrible GM. He should be fired. Or Santa needs a GM, I think, is what we're trying to see here, because Rudolph has this guy's flying in total darkness in the cold, and he has this reindeer that has a lot. It's a one-in-a-billion chance that this would happen to him, And he, like, is at a repressive force in the North Pole.

I don't know, man. And then when he's needy and he's in a crunch, he's just like, he's lauded as the guy who's like, oh, I'm open to change now. I just have a big problem with Santa. I'm not a fan. So Santa is Mark Jackson? Doug Collins? Who do we think? David Conn?

I just don't. He's just like there's a generational talent right here. I want, you know, I need these other young bucks who are coming up who have just like normal black noses. It's egregious, honestly. That's my first problem with... With Santa. I don't know if you guys have any comments on that. Well, I mean, he's breaking into people's houses.

Let's just be honest. You could ring the fucking doorbell and do this cordially, but you just decide to go through the chimney unannounced. Like, that's not cool. So there's a lot going on here that we... I don't know if we want to unpack because it's going to get really dark really quickly, but like, just your job shouldn't exist. He's got issues.

There's really no... I mean, like, you named a deer vixen. Like, that's weird. That's a weird thing to do. Oh, talk about, I didn't even think about, I don't even. He thinks Vixen is yummy. I hope not. I hope for all of our sakesh that Santa does not think Vixen is yummy.

Jesus Christ. I'm never going to recover. Also, I just wanted to comment on the island of Misfit Toys. There's a big problem here. There's a big, there's a big, there's a lack of distribution of blame here. I think that the marketers of these toys are the people who should be ostracized on the island. I just like, I look. Look at those poor toys and I'm just really sad.

And I'm just like going down the list here. It's just like, okay, Charlie in the box, just change your fucking name. I don't understand that marketer on the island. A boomerang that doesn't come back. That's just a weapon. That's just a mismarketed. A piggy bank with no slot. It's just a toy pig.

What's the issue here? A winged bear. Why's the winged bear on the island? That's awesome. When you were a kid, when you love to have a winged bear, spotted elephant, same thing, bird that swims. My son would love to play with that. boy that rides an ostrich, that's hilarious. They should have sold millions. I just think the

marketers should have been ostracized and put on the island and justice. I think we should hunt them all down. They're probably really old now, but we should hunt them down. We have to hold power to account. There's just no way it was the toy's fault. Well, I also think there's a side take to this where I think we should adopt the misfit island and just like send people who do dumb shit there. Like people who recline on planes, island. Get out. I don't want no corporal punishment or anything like that, but they got to go. Everyone who does stupid things, got to go. And no trial either.

Just send them. Send them. I think we should be the trial. We should be the tribunal. I like this for us. I like giving us that kind of power. I think we're off to a good start with the people who are reclining on planes

and also the people who are letting their dogs walk off leash. That's a great place to start. Cast into the fire. Do you guys recline? Never. I've never done it once. Not once. Love it.

You do it? No, I'm saying I love you for that. I am an absolute hard-o. If I think it's like an inch back, I'm hitting that button and making sure. Like, and when the stewardess comes by and adjust the seat and I didn't realize it, I feel deep shame over that. Understandably, it's just again, it's like you're living in a different world than the one we've been flying in for the last 10 to 15 years. You know, the climate has changed up here. It is a hunger game situation in the air.

And if we're not doing something to help out each other, then we're really, we're really, just feeding this machine. I think we solved everything. All the world's problems, this has been great. I got to say, what's up with mistletoe might be one of the great grievances that's ever been aired on this podcast. So Justin, take a bow, please. This has been a great episode for you. This is always your Super Bowl, the airing of grievances, but you really brought it. Just predatory basil when you think about it.

And yummy vixen. We covered it all. All right, we'll be back on Sunday. Remember to get those questions into ringer group chat at gmail.com. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz for all their work this season. Also, happy holidays, everyone. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanuk, whatever you celebrate.

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