The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos start  this holiday-themed episode by discussing the news around De’Aaron Fox and whether he could leave Sacramento and where he could go. Then, they bring their grievances to the table for NBA Festivus. They discuss the All-Star Game format, the second apron, and much more.The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello football fans. Shield Capadia here to tell you that the Ringer NFL show is the best place to be for fun and in-depth analysis of all your favorite teams and players throughout the 2024 season. Join me, Stephen Ruiz and Deonté Lee twice a week for an insightful preview of the weekly slate of games every Friday, followed by the Big Monday Recap Show where we delve into our patented hot takes on all the NFL action. And don't forget about Wednesdays, which will feature me, a special QB segment from Stephen, a breakdown of the biggest storylines around the league from our own Nora Princiatti, plus much more.

You won't want to miss any of it, so make sure you subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, and follow at Ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTokX, and YouTube. Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Verrier, and joining me from the Brooklyn Penitentiary, Rob Mahoney, Santa Waulde, Santa Walsh, What's up, boys?

Oh, ho, ho, ho, bitches. I just want to say, we got your tweets. We saw them. We saw your jokes. I'm hoping we can avoid the Brooklyn pen, the three of us. I'm hoping we're not out here committing light to medium fraud. Oh, my God. Or human sex trafficking.

Well, I didn't want to touch the other two. God Almighty. That one wasn't a favorable comp. I'll say that. No. I think the real question is, which one of us is? Luigi and one of us is RBF? You know, I was asked this, but I was like, is it Justin Italian?

He has to be Luigi. I think so. I mean, it goes without saying, you know, plus, you know, according to Hinge and Raya, he's the most handsome of the crew. So we got to give him that Luigi moniker, Rob. See, I thought, you know, people were just skating right past the was as Luigi possibility. Oh.

Cross racial comp. I'm just saying if one of us is a comrade who is fighting for the people, it's what. It's true. Well, that and, you know, as Christopher Walken said in true romance, the Moors once invaded Sicily. So there's that component as well. What else did he say in that speech? Do you want to go through the entire thing? It's probably the best scene in the movie, but no, we don't need to rehash that here.

That's okay. Yeah, no, I don't do well on. by the way. So I don't know if I'm at Luigi status. You catch me on Hinge, though. I put up numbers. There you go. Let's go. Give Justin a shout out if you're on Portland Hinge. I'm on there, so I'll find you eventually. All right. Should we get to the matter at hand here? Because it is the holidays. And in particular, it's one of our favorite holidays. It is NBA Festivus. This is where we air our grievances about anything in the NBA or if you're me. Just, just all walks of life.

Yeah. The good thing is today is actually what people consider actual festivist. So I feel like the timing for this is quite ripe. Yeah. Do you feel moved by the spirit, Justin? This is really your Super Bowl, I would say. I feel moved by this particular spirit, the gripe spirit pretty much every day. Yeah.

This is a 24-7 thing for me. But I don't have the poll this year. I don't have Michich. I don't have the photo. I know. I'm trying to celebrate this. with my heart, not necessarily with my accoutrement. Well, look, you've gone through a move.

Things famously get, you know, misplaced, the tree, you can't quite find it. You don't have all of the accessories and decorations. The pole. The pole, Mietchich himself will have to stay in the closet or in some box that's been squirled away somewhere. But, Waz, I hope we can bring the spirit of Festivus in Vassili Mietch's absence. You know, I hope we can match Justin's level of griping and really just, I think, him getting the head start of already being so aggrieved all the time all year. We have to muster

it in a different way. Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely going to be channeling my inner George Costanza today. And it won't be very hard to be fine. Maybe we're just getting older, you know? I've been keeping track of some of these grievances over the course of, I would say the entire season. So I've got a list of like 10 to 15 deep. If you want the deep cuts, maybe you can subscribe to our Patreon. And, We'll give you the cuts. But first, we should probably talk about some MBA matters before we get to the very super important NBA matters.

In particular, it seems like things are going pretty poorly for the Sacramento Kings. Like, it's going bad for the Nuggets. I saw them live here in Portland. And let me tell you, even after our pod, even after we wrung our hands for what seemed like 15 minutes, it was way worse than it actually was in person. But the Kings might be in a worse spot right now because it sounds like Deere and Fox is kind of making the moves or inch and toward the exit here. So they've lost four in a row, Rob. And Fox is in the athletic. He's, which Paul is coming into town. He's talking to the

brass. He's saying things like, oh, I don't know. Like, maybe they need to make more moves. So, like, if we're talking about worry, like defcon levels, are you all the way at the top or are you somewhere in the middle? I think it's somewhere in the middle still because you can see the Kings talking themselves into the intermediate panic trades to try to, you know, give Fox something to believe in. But the panic is real for a reason. And it's like if you look around in Sacramento right now, what are you hanging your hat on?

What are you choosing to invest in if you're a player of Deeran Fox's caliber? This is a team that has been circling the drain for the vast majority of this season. We can go through the laundry list of the things that have gone wrong there. First and foremost, I feel like the offense has devolved. this is not a team that's good enough defensively to survive that kind of thing. It's not a team that can bring in DeMarterosen and then not understand how to use him

or not implement him in a way that's going to make him comfortable in addition to everything else that they're doing. And so, yeah, if you're Deerran Fox, who can be a free agent in 2026, I can understand why you'd be looking around at alternative situations. If you're the Sacramento King staring down that same free agent deadline,

you have to be realistic about this stuff. Like, they are on the clock right now and they are losing game after game after game while they're on the clock. Yeah, I feel like it's middle of the road for me, just because, you know, shouts to Slater and Amick, my guys at the athletic, two guys that are super duper plugged into what's happening. Great to see them at the NBA Cup. I found Amic to be quite warm in fighting and great to see. Wow.

Amic is the goat. I didn't run into Tony Slater, but always love seeing him. But those guys are super plugged into what's happening with the Kings. And so if they're writing this article, it's not like where this, like there's smoke here. Definitely. I think there was smoke the day Fox turned down that contract extension. Turn down the extension, exactly. You know, but what I will say, just, yes, the team is having a shortcomings.

I think the difference between, you know, a couple of the guys that they mentioned in the article, Anthony Davis and Luca Donchich, these are guys who had previously played at MVP levels, you know, before AD ultimately forced his way out, and Luca Donchich ended up staying because, you know, they put together a nice score, ended up making a finals run, they look really elite again this year.

Fox has just not been that level of players. So to lose him would sting, but like it's just not the same as Lucas, losing Luca D'Otner. I guess I'm not a rocket science for figuring that out. But that's why I'm not like so like, oh, whoa, is me for the freaking kings. That being said, you know, they had that magical run the first year of like the beam. And they've regressed both years since.

And if you're a guy who finally got his taste of real postseason basketball, that stage and that magnitude and that level of who. and all you've done is see your team get worse successively, why wouldn't you be like, yo, that's where I see my career. Ultimately, I want to be on a winning team. I want to be playing in the most competitive games at the end of the year.

This team doesn't seem to be headed in that direction. You know, this is probably the last time he'll ever be able to wield this level of influence in his career. He's turning 27 years old, y'all. He's no spring chicken. This guy's been around for eight years now. Yeah. So, you know, I understand the saber rattling.

And yeah, it would suck for the kings. But at the same time, you know, worse rebuilds have had to happen. Yeah, but worse rebuilds in Sacramento. Like, it's all relative, you know? That is weird. Yeah, I just, I don't know who the kings are if they're not Deer and Fox in to Mona Subonis at this point. And to that point, they went and traded Tyrese Halliburton and brought in Sabonis to aspire to some level of competence that hadn't been there for.

nearly two decades. And so it just gets pretty bleak pretty quickly. And I think that's why I would be concerned if I'm the Kings or a Kings fan or just anyone watching this team is it seemed like they got De Mardozen in part to stabilize what they used to have to get back to the playoffs. Now, we're not even aspiring to the second round at this point. We're just trying to get back to what we accomplished with Fox and House. And the fact that De Rosen, they go out and trade for him. They didn't give up much. So there's that. There still is a big move in there if they do want to make a panic trade. but it just hasn't given them enough to be competitive. And you look at the roster too.

It's not like they've been suffering injuries. Like Monk missed a few games, like Drozah missed a game or two. This is just the team. If anything, this just shows like the team just isn't talented. And that level of transparency that like what we have just cannot compete with even like a team like the Spurs, for instance, I think is very depressing. And so I understand where Fox is coming from. Yeah. I think it's every level.

of the organization that is struggling right now. If you want to go on a player to player basis, like, King and Murray can't shoot. That's a problem. Like, that is one of the guys that they do have on a team that is already quite shallow, as you said, Justin. So the fact that the team is shallow

is a management problem. The fact that some of the players aren't performing up to their usual levels, I think Murray, Kevin Hurder, falls into that bucket. Demar is hard to place in this because it's tough to parse out what is his discomfort with the offense

and what is the team not using him particularly effectively. he scored two points in that blowout loss to the Pacers where the Kings got booed on their home floor. He has scored two points in a loss. The last time he scored so few points in a loss was 2014. This is one of the most stable, bankable scores in the league. You put DeMarrozen on the floor,

he will get buckets for you unless he feels this disjointed and he feels this much of an accessory to what they do. And all of the movement and handoffs that used to feel really dynamic in Sacramento now are so wrote and predictable and teams know how to play it. And there's a lot of heat coming at Mike Brown right now. And I think for good reason. Like his rotations are very confusing.

Like why Keon Ellis continues to be a marginalized part of this team, I don't really understand. Malik Monk has done well enough as a starter, as you alluded to, JV. But I just don't see anyone on this team covering themselves in glory. And when you're Deerrin Fox, that's when things start to get a little bit spicy. When you're not having faith in the organization to make the right. moves when you're not having faith in your coach to push the right buns, when you can't look down your bench and say, those are the guys that I really trust to do their jobs. That's when it might be time to move on, to be honest with you.

Yeah. Also, eight years is a long time, guys. Long time. Like eight years in Sacramento, many of those years in the wilderness or with weird ownership situations or just like, just the precarity of being up there. It hasn't been some like smooth sailing great time over there. That being said, obviously the fans are incredible and there's major support for the team. But, you know, and I've spent a decent amount of time.

I shouldn't say decent amount. A little bit of time talking to DeAnne Fox before. And this kid is like really sharp and really perceptive and self-aware. and like in a way that's not common for NBA players. And, you know, it's not shocking that he can take a look at the landscape of the NBA and be like, this ain't it. And this is not something I want to be attached to necessarily as I'm reaching literally the entirety of my prime here.

This next contract is going to encompass the rest of his prime. Yeah. And so, yeah, I understand. And I understand why the alarm bells are going up right now. And listen, this is kind of what we were talking about with superstars not necessarily like griping or putting pressure on their front offices. And the way that they have in the past but haven't in recent years or at least publicly, this seems warranted.

Like to the fact that they haven't gotten anything out of the draft practically since Kegan Murray, which is in 2022, like I know Devin Carter, their lottery pick this past year hasn't played because of injury. But like, they're just giving away draft picks. They punted on one pick two years ago in order to re-sign the bonus at a higher number. But you look at like the lack of a bench, it speaks directly to the fact that they've kind of not replenished anything on the back end when they had the opportunity to do so. Like it's not like they didn't have the means to go out and add a seventh or eighth man.

They've just kind of punted. And those are the type of things. If I'm Fox, I'm concerned about as an organization. And so I'm looking like, where are the next guys coming from? If you make even a big splashing move who like, by, the way, the Kings haven't really drawn much in free agency or in trades. Like, guys still don't want to go there despite the fact that things have turned around a little bit in recent years. Like, that's it. There really aren't many moves left to make here. And so if I'm Fox,

I'm looking over at, for instance, the Spurs, a team that keeps getting mentioned as potentially interested in Fox if he does hit the market. And like, there's a runway for me. And frankly, I appreciate it. I appreciate a superstar being like, I could sign for the most amount of money here or I can go and win and make the most advantage of my prime. That's what something we, as fans should be congratulating. That is the move there. I want to see these guys want to win. Yeah, there's a bit of a tightrope because you, you know, I want to believe in an NBA

ecosystem where fans of a team can grow with it, grow with the players that are on it and not live under the constant threat that their superstar is going to ask out. But this is not a guy who just showed up as we've been talking around. It is a veteran established entrenched member of the Kings who has. has not been done right by the organization. And I think we make the jokes about clutch, but clutch exists as a correction to the way the NBA used to work, right? It is a grab at power and a shift in a different direction. And the fact that he is represented by Rich Paul is certainly material here. You're right that San Antonio is like screaming on the board, right? That is a,

possibility that if you are a point guard, that could be your spot. If you are a dynamic creator, that could be a spot for you for the next, you know, for the foreseeable future, really. I also think if you were the Houston Rockets, this is one of the windows you've been waiting for. And Dearen Fox is not the Kevin Durant level star that they've been linked to him or a heart in return or whatever. But like, Fox has some Houston ties. He is exactly the kind of creator that they need.

Everything that you are frustrated with as a Rockets fan with the way Fred Van Vleet has played this season with Jalen Green stop and start playmaking, Deer & Fox is a, he coalesces in all of those traits in all of those skills. And he can fucking go. people. If you are a team like Houston, I think you've got to get to the phone. Yeah, I think Houston makes a lot of sense. The Spurs for obvious reasons because the past few years,

he's played in such a system that highlights the skills of the big man. And so Deerrin Fox playing off of a big is not hard. He already knows how to do it, even if they want to feature. When Binyama even more than they do now, De Aaron Fox is going to get hit. He's going to eat no matter what. And I think Houston just has a more, I guess it's more spread out the talent amongst his players than, you know, a generational big.

But like, you might almost want to play on a more well-rounded organization. I just think, you know, the Sacramento thing has run its course. unless something drastic happens, I don't see how they avoid this guy leveraging his free agency to do something that he thinks is just better for his overall career. I like the Houston option for this season

because I would imagine the kings aren't going to let go of Fox unless they get a couple birds in the hand, like some actual young players that they could start the rebuild with immediately. And if I'm the spurs, I'm not getting rid of Castle for sure. I'm probably not getting rid of Vassel, a player I still like, despite the fact that he's been a little bit

up and down and injured of late. And so it becomes a little tougher with the spurs, with the Rockets, for instance. I mean, I'm the biggest Devin Vassell booster there is, I think, and I'm trading Devin Vessel for Dier and Foxx. Yeah, that I feel pretty comfortable with. And to be honest with you, the idea of a Fox Castle backcourt,

while small, is something I can get behind. You need to get on the phone with, with Jeremy Lamb and figure out some Sacramento real estate ASAP. Sorry, Harry Barnes is going to hook him up. Yeah, that's right. I don't know. I'm still pretty high on Bissell long term, but I get it. If it's Fox, it makes sense.

But I assume the Spurs' interest would be for picks so they could just add Fox to what they have. The Rockets, for instance, as we talked to Nazim at this point, like three to four young guys in there for Fox, like that starts making a lot of sense very quickly. Yeah, especially if the kings are a Jalen Green believer, then you can really get somewhere if that's kind of the conversation starter. Tarisan, Jalen Green, some sweeteners. You can make something happen.

Tari Isan was born a king, you know? He is a king, but also he's destined to be on the Kings one day. You say that, but they could really fucking use a Tari Esen right now. Like that is a big part of their problem. That's what they think Keon is giving them. Can you imagine if we had Tari Aeson on this show right now? He would just be yelling at us the whole time and it would be great. We could use some of that.

You know, I think we need to channel a little bit of Tari Easton at 2025. Just like get into each other's faces a little bit more. Raise our level of antagonism on this spot. We need to be mean to each other in 2025. You know, that's what we need to do. We need to turn the page toward just aggressiveness. And as a really, result, how about we get to our grievances right now?

Yes. Yes. What a perfect time to bring in our favorite holiday. So every year, we air some grievances, as we mentioned, as a nod to Festivis, a sort of real holiday now. It's gone from like a Seinfeld bit to something people bring up fairly regularly and are at the very least like going out there and doing the performance of it for social media or whatever. here we're going to talk about grievances about the NBA, but sometimes not so much. Who would like to start us off in this feats of Shren? I would love to hear a Wah's grievance out of the gate.

Oh, gosh. It seems like every week this podcast just turns into how did Adam Silver piss Waz off again this week? And I got to say, man, this All-Star thing, like I basically, I ignored it for as long as I could. I was like, wait, what? The multiple teams and the blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, inevitably silver goes on his PR tour. Oh, I talked to staff.

I talked to different guys about how to goose it. So they're picking three teams? Or is it, no. Four teams. Four teams. It's three plus the winner from the Rising Stars thing. I think it's a combination rising stars plus some G-Lie guys. Sorry, four teams.

It starts in the semifinals, a mini tournament, four teams, mini tournament, then a final. Kenny, Shaq, and Chuck pick a team as well. Giving Candace the Rising Stars is bogus, by the way. I just want to go on record. What, like, just why? Just why. Like, we know what the problem is. These dudes refuse to play harder.

it's not because of format, Elam ending, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These guys just don't want to try during the All-Star game. This isn't going to save it. You know, at the very least, just hit me with the East West, throw the balls out there,

pray that some pride kicks in, let's go. And I get it, like, a lot of it as well, if you're not trying, if you're not tinkering, then you're not doing, bro, stop. We've done the tinkering. We've done enough for this.

It's over. Just back to what it was, East West, let these dudes figure it out. Hopefully John Moran is pissed off enough people. Well, in this case, it'd be his own teammates. But you know what I mean? Somebody, just please make it end with this all-star fixes and tinkering

and, you know, silver. Damn, they're being brought the tears at the trophy giveaway at the end of the last. last years. It's just like, stop it, guys. Just get back to normal, back to basics, figure out a way to get these dudes to care about hooping, which is what they've been doing their entire freaking lives. Just figure it out. Just figure it out. Figure it out. Figure it out. I'm torn. On the one hand, I agree with you. Like, there's been a lot of tinkering in the NBA lately. And in a way that I think makes some of the product unrecognizable to certain

pockets of people, makes it feel like every problem is bigger than it is because everything is being addressed all the time. Like, I think that's a real psychological thing that's happening. On the other hand was, I think you are underestimating the power of shame. And in particular, not being the team that loses to the rising stars and the G League guys, I think is a motivator. I also think something we've experienced with All-Star Games in recent history is the game starts. You are quickly reminded of how not basketball it is and how like, oh my God, I'm going to sit through four quarters of this shit and separating it from one four quarter game

in which the second half is just interminably long because no one is playing hard and no one wants to watch it. Trading that for three smaller games in which we get new people in and have to kind of restart the action, I wonder if that might actually help a little bit where it's not just, oh, we're rolling into the second quarter, but here are the other teams and one of them might lose to the gym. She league. I think you have the right idea, but I almost wonder if the shame works because there's

fewer places to hide. If you're on a team with fewer roster spots, you then are more on stage. There's more of a reason to like give your all or give something approximating that. And so for that reason, I get it. I think the format is interesting enough, but I wonder if it ends up like the draft, the All-Star draft that we just had where it's like a fun novelty for a year or two and then it completely dissipates. I think Woz's whole point is just like the main thing that they need to solve here is the guys need to care. And so if they don't care

in a different format, it's not going to solve anything. I think there's two ways to do this. I think you give them money, which is, seems like the only thing that people get up for these days and more power to them. And two, I also wonder if you revert back to

East West, if the younger generation starts to be like, well, I'm going to care because like, I used to care about the all-star game when I used to play. And I'm talking specifically about Victor Webbenyama, who I saw a quote from was like, go back to East West. I'm going to care. Just like, let's just turn the page here. I think it's like a generational thing where it's like, oh, this generation did this. Well, we're going to rebuke that and go the opposite way. And we're going to make this a thing. And so I wonder if we just need to hand it over to the young people.

Listen, Adam is good at getting a bag. I heard the Saudis have a sovereign wealth fund. We already got the Emirates involved with the cup. Sure the Saudis got some change that they look into unload. Let's get them involved with the All-Star game and put some money up. I'm not doing a hoop idea involved the Saudis. That's not a thing we are going to participate in. It's not it. It works for our government all the time.

It works for the NBA. It works for our government, you know. Yeah, I think the. I think the key is just somebody, something within the players themselves infusing some level of a competitive spirit. For whatever reason, man, these guys try their damnness at the cup. Maybe it is the money. Maybe it is getting their guys at the end of the bench. You know, in certain cases, three-fourths of their damn salary added on top, you know.

Maybe it is just that. But yeah, to me, it's just, this is basketball, guys. It ain't that complicated. You're supposed to want to cook the guy in front of you and not do a glorified layup line for 48 minutes. That's another thing. I'd probably like to see this thing you turn to eight-minute quarters. Like, it would just get us closer to the end of the game faster.

Faster, but, you know, with the sponsors, and they got to milk every single dollar out of every single thing, the freaking TV partners and so, you know, I know that's going to be a tough sell, but yeah, this All-Star thing is just God, it's annoying me. Yeah, if I can sneak a grievance within the grievance here,

I have seen a creeping nihilism out there of why even try to save the All-Star game. Look at the Pro Bowl. Look at the MLB All-Star game. Like, no one pretends that these things are important. They are like complete. The Pro Bowl is done. I don't even think they played a Pro Bowl.

I'm upset. Like they're non-events. They completely nuked it. So why are we fighting to keep All-Star? I think you identified something wise that's really important and why the NBA All-Star game should work, which is the nature of basketball is so much more confrontational, specifically than baseball. But because it is five-on-five, because it can devolve into a one-on-one game in a good way, even more so than football too. Like there is much more. I am going to score and embarrass you. I'm going to isolate and attack you specifically. You can't guard the Bick and Roll. I'm going to call you up. and I'm going to show you up on national television.

Those things should juice the competitive environment, and there is a basis of something here that can work, but the guys have to be invested in it. And I'm all four of the conversations as to like how to incentivize them to do that, but I'm still a believer that the All-Star game can be a thing. I think so too, but again, traditionally it was a showcase for younger talent, right? It's like I turn on my All-Star game. I know who Carl Malone and Stockton are.

I know who Gary Payton and Sean Kemp are. Whoa, KG, like I heard of him, but this guy is like something new, something different, something exciting. Oh, this Kobe Bryant kid. Oh, Grant Hill. Like, it was like a learning experience about these new guys in the context of something that resembled actual NBA basketball. You know, the best players in the world in the showcase for these new guys.

and, you know, had they arrived yet? And now that basically everybody's just like, no, I'm not trying, I'm not even going to, like, this, I did it. NBA basketball players, again, these guys have been playing basketball their whole lives. This is their entire identity that, like, it's just impossible that they would show up in hoop. It's just nuts to me. It's where Jordan took off. Like, this is foundational to the NBA and its brand and its history in the way that the Pro Bowl will never be. Like the NBA has to figure this out, but I think we all agree.

Like it almost seems like a return to form and just like getting back to the roots is what we're all wanting because like it reminds us of those sorts of guys starting to come to form becoming the next wave of guys, which is honestly one of the biggest problems in the NBA right now. And also I think another thing that it avoids like players want to avoid this because they have their own egos like this concept of a pecking order. Like some of y'all, and we had to do it in the Olympic, because they fit in the Olympics. It's like we just, we can't lose to Yolk it in a bunch of mechanics, right? Like, we can't let Wembe Nyama and these cats embarrass us. The pecking order getting established and it's ruthless. It's like Jason Tatum MVP can and it's just not going to play.

We need to bring that energy to the All-Star game. I'm sorry, like there needs to be this concept of like this. Some of y'all might show up and not play. Some of y'all might get a quick hook. We're trying to display the best that our sport has to offer because news flash, y'all, we're selling a freaking product to the public. Yep. Let's try to do that.

You're not to embarrassing people, all right? Let's just embarrass some young people, some millionaires. I'm sick of this. Oh, the feelings and the fifis and the sensitivity. You guys are getting paid more than anybody ever. Sorry, if you get embarrassed every now and again, get over it. Crying to your riches. Well, speaking of embarrassing people, I have one here that kind of dovetails with that general idea.

Joke Twitter accounts, specifically NBA ones, specifically this NBA centel guy, woman, people, got to stop because there is no joke within the joke Twitter. A lot of the, in air quotes, jokes or tweets that this account sends out are just lies. And for whatever reason, people think that this is funny. Like, I'm willing to go along with it if there was like some artistry behind it. And I guess in a weird perverse way it is. But the artistry is just disinformation that you convince like adults like us on podcast that it was real. But it's gotten to the point where even the things they're trying to trick you with are like they sound like they're not even like crafted to be a joke. They're just like wrong information.

you an example here. This was from December 13th, NBA Centel. The Warriors would prefer to keep Brandon Przemsky out of any Jimmy Butler trade scenarios per Crispy Haynes. It's not a joke. That's just a lie. That's just a lie. I mean, Justin, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Have you ever been Centeld before? I don't think so. Not knowingly. Okay. Have you? I also, I don't know. Maybe we've gotten to extended bits on this pod that were rooted in fake news. But look, I agree with you. The whole point of it is that it needs to be so ridiculous that when someone does take the bait,

ha, ha, we can all laugh together. But if it's just, if it's just fake trade posturing, that's not a joke. Breaking. LeBron James announces his retirement from the NBA. It's not a joke. That's not a joke. That's not a joke. And if LeBron was, and if LeBron's was like completely stinking it up, then it'd be like kind of funny.

Like, see, like, I interpret the Warriors tweet, and this is just like a Roarshark test, I interpreted as, you know, Kirk Lakeb dissing. You know what I mean? Like the Kendall Roy- I think you're giving them too much credit. Leakibs. I think you're like... NBA Centel is not operating at that level.

I just don't think that's what the intent is. I'm like, oh, is that a joke about the Kendall Roy's running the Warriors? but no, it's not. It's just me projecting. This isn't punching up at power. That's not what's going on on NBA Centel. It's a joke because Pajemski has been bad this year. And so that's why they prefer to keep him because that's what they didn't.

It's just like nine layers deep of meta if you really want to get to a joke. And I don't know. I think even that's giving them a lot of credit. Just stop lying as jokes. I'm here for it if you want to put something behind it, some sort of like craft to it. But this ain't it. So no more of that. Would you volunteer your services as a joke doctor?

How much am I getting paid? Well, I think it's open for negotiation, but NBA Centelle, if you want to punch up your material, Justin Verrier is all ears. Let's get the W-2 going. All right, Rob, you want to do one of yours? I also want to talk about the ways in which we are communicating with each other. But in this case, the way that the teams are communicating to us. And I say us being fans, I say us being members of the media.

I say us being everyone outside of the little bubble, we got to cut the shit with the way teams are disclosing injuries. And in particular, the communication around things like Joelle's injury to start the season was embarrassing. Like genuinely embarrassing. And I think damaging for the league as a product and most importantly in the spirit of Festivist, just very frustrating for me personally. And I will not stand for it. If a player has swelling in his knee, call it inflammation.

Call it swelling in his knee. If it is the complication of a surgery, tell us that is the complication of a surgery. You cannot sit out indefinitely for rest. You cannot sit out indefinitely for gradual ramp up. Like you get one game. One game, excuse free, like he's sitting up for rest. After that, I think you've got to start saying what the fuck is actually happening.

So this is another thing we inherited from the, you know, 2012, 2013, 2014 era NBA media coverage of the goddamn San Antonio Spur. and everything they're doing they did being genius and smart. And Lodeman Schmidt was one. It was so genius. Oh, Pop is the best. And then everybody adopted and fucking ruin the product. And this injury report chicanery is another one of their inventions

that everybody has sort of taken up this like, you know, playing around with like who's injured, who's going to play, blah, blah, blah, blah, like this fake competitive advantage shit. Yeah. Or just like just a sort of, you know, just a general media, Omerita, where we don't give them, you know, like Marky Mark said, feed him shit and keep him in the dark, treat them like mushrooms or whatever. Like, it's literally.

What was the basis for that Marky Mark quote? He said that's his theory on the feds into departed. Oh, okay, okay, got you got you. That was a Marky Mark song we're referring to here. I thought this was him in real life putting that up. Is that the Walberger's motto? What's going on? Yeah, well, that's Marky Mark in the depart of his theory of the feds

and apparently the Spurs theory of the media and the public. And everybody adopted it because guess what? Oh, Pop and RC, they're so genius. Everything they've ever done is the smartest basketball thing ever. And now everybody does it. And it's stupid. it's damaging to the game. Yep.

The new permutation that I particularly, like really sticks in my craw is we're going to give you an update about an update to come. It's like we're going to reevaluate someone in two weeks. Yes. And then there's another three weeks tacked on to that. And so what really is is five weeks. And they probably know that in advance, but they don't want to give you that up front because it leaves the possibility that they might come back sooner, which they never do.

Like this is a classic Zion maneuver, which like what is going on with Zion right now? No one knows. And that's like another classic example of a player that leads or it gets off on obfuscation. But it's always like it's a month away. It's never seven months away. It's a week away from being a week away from being a week away. See, this is why I would recommend if you are a team, swing in the other direction. Tell us that every player is going to be out six weeks.

And then when they come back in three, it's like, oh, my God. what an incredible trajectory. What a great rehab story. Like, I'm fine. Yeah, exactly. Set expectations low and deliver over them. I think is a totally valid thing. But the way it works right now,

it's just not good for anybody. And I know this because it's not just members of the media who are upset about it. It's not just fans. Like the interaction between Joel and Sixers fans at the start of the year got really toxic because no one knew what was going on. The communication was trash.

And it's bad for the coaches, the head coach of a team is the most accessible member of the organization. Like they're available twice on game days. Basically every practice or availability. They are being hounded and questioned constantly. When is this guy going to be back? What's the update for this player?

And they just have to stand there and be frustrated that they don't have good information or new information or can even reflect accurately what the fuck is going on. So who are we serving ultimately by giving these weird vague timelines for things? Can I give a hoop idea? What if we sent Daryl Morey to a desert island? Because I almost wonder when we look back 20 years from now, We'll say everything that we didn't like about the NBA at this time. It's all Daryl's fault.

I mean, in addition to the Spurs, which Waz clearly has his gripes about. But we're talking about the injury obfuscation, talking about the three-pointers. We're talking about the refereeing and, like, players trying to manipulate the refs. I think a lot of it ultimately goes back to him. I think you're giving one person too much credit for literally anything. Those are giant league-wide trends. Yeah, but he kind of started a lot of them. Yeah. I think, look, there's a difference to me between there's the things that become league-wide trends because they work.

Like, team shoot a lot of threes because it's efficient basketball. And then there's this shit, which doesn't serve any purpose. Like, like, Wasas was mentioning, like, there's no competitive advantage to be gained. It's just the dark arts. Completely. And in this, just like a little smuggle of grievance in this, if you're an NBA head coach and you go up for your preseason availability and you're asked what the starting lineup is and you're like, I'm going to hide this until 15 minutes from now when I have to report my lineup card. Who are you? Why are you doing that? A clown. I don't get it. We're a big red nose. I think Quinn Snyder did that while we were in Vegas.

So many coaches do it. Yeah. Was, you want to do one of yours now? Again, something we touched upon briefly, but it's coming to stark focus the past couple of weeks, and that's this freaking second apron crap that nobody needed or asked for. Essentially, Adam decided that the NBA should be more like the NFL, and teams should be, there should be more parity. Funny, there's more parity now, but whatever.

That's a story for another day. But it was a solution in search of a problem that just didn't exist. Like, who were these teams? Again, post-Kady and the Warriors, which I think. think was a legitimate problem. But it's the only time it's ever really actually happened. And a one-time artificial circumstance

that led to it. Yes, that created it. Who were these teams that were just stacking talent that just seemed unbeatable? I remember when, you know, my guy Wendy was like, oh, there's people calling Golden State Championship in 22,

a checkbook championship. Because they had Andrew Wiggins and like some decent role players. It was absolutely absurd at the time. And the idea was that we need to prevent a 22 warriors from ever happening again. Like this was some insanely dominant, crazy advantage team.

It was nuts. It was an ownership group that was willing to spend. That's it. That's all it was. And, you know, this fake problem that we created. And like, I've become frustrated. with it in the past couple of weeks because of the Jimmy Butler thing where it's just like, I think Jimmy Butler would make a team that's trying to win meaningfully, you know,

like, like tangibly better, you know, like this would be a more fun, more interesting, and on the court, a better team, better product, more fun to watch. And it's like it's impossible to get a freaking deal, stitch a deal together because of these new ridiculous rules. And it's never really been pointed out who actually wanted this. And I have a sneaky suspicion. We know why. It's all the owners you expect.

Yeah, it's the owners. The owners. Cleveland, they just love the idea that no fan base could ever pressure them into dipping into their freaking profits again to keep a winner on the floor. And it's just bullshit. Nobody needed this. Nobody actually wanted this. It's awful.

Short-sided NBA. where they want to appease the owners rather than the fans. And so now they're up in arms like, why are the fans upset? It's because you prioritize the cash flow or not having to overspend in order to be competitive rather than the product, rather than building better teams, which has been proven time and time again. People want to see. People want to see the super teams. They don't want to see the parity in the smaller markets and all this other stuff.

And I get it if you're a smaller market and you don't have the opportunity to land some of those bigger plans. You feel like there's a disadvantage. I frankly don't care because the product overall is better. And if you care about money to begin with, this is how you make more money. Yeah. I think it's especially such a cry-fowl situation when you have ownership who is on the one hand begging for the restraints, right, in this way to not be pressured to have to spend, not be pressure to dip into the tax.

But with the other hand is begging for public funds for new arenas. And it's like, you got into this spot to spend money. That is your role. That is what you bring to the organization. You do nothing else. You have no other tangible contribution. Nothing. You add nothing but the money.

I know these are all self-professed titans of industry who believe themselves to be managerial geniuses. And some of them, I'm sure, are bringing something in terms of organizational value. By the way, libertarian is fuck, not to put my, you know, political cap on. But most of these motherfuckers are the most disingenest. genuine libertarian. Oh, everybody should be able to do what they want, how they want. What do we need the rules and the constraints for? Oh, the market is just the answer to every single question we've ever had in the history

of humanity. But then they add shit like this. Of course. The market solves everything unless we're talking about free agency or the draft or overall spending under the apron. God, this freaking owners disgust me. It's a lot. I actually have an idea for you guys because I had this down on my list as

well. So the apron has become the biggest boogeyman in the NBA at this point, right? All about second apron, can't do the second apron, can't even go over the first apron because that restricts you in certain ways now. What if because the apron is such a deterrent from transactions, we actually get rid of salary matching in trade. So in the NBA, unlike in baseball, in particular, you have to match salaries up to a certain percentage, right? So that's why you can't trade Jimmy Butler for Brandon Pajemski straight up. What if we just abolished that and allow the aprons to do the restricting? And so you could trade a big star for a bunch of young players without having to take

back contracts like the expiring contracts are just bad contract, which is a huge part of this discourse every single year. And you just let teams, the penalty would just be the apron penalties at that point. So it would really be come down to who wants to spend and who doesn't. Yeah, I actually like that idea. I'm sure there's some unintended consequences we're not quite reckoning with yet, but I agree that it's kind of redundant to have both in a certain extent. Make your first NBA bet a swish with Fandul, America's number one sports book. Fanduel has all your favorite bets from who will win the game to how many points a player will score.

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fandle.com. Gambling problem, call 1,800 gambler, or visit rgishdhelp.com. And if I can offshoot here into one of my grievances, I just think the current state of the league makes us care about contracts too much. And we have sort of like an adult collective GM brain. And I say that, not just for the people who are, who are terminally online and in the, trenches arguing about the NBA on the internet every day. I'm talking everybody. Like, there's a certain class of player for whom it is impossible to. have a conversation about how they play without starting to talk about their contract. Like, you cannot say the name Brad Beale without getting into a giant referendum on how the

sons were built. And some of that is, look, some of that is us in the media. Some of that is just like how we got here. I think some of it is the sort of overall trajectory of turning us all into human trade machines because of the way that the NBA has operated, not necessarily right now, but over the last decade. We are at a place now where trade, like the trade possibilities are so limited. by the aprons.

It's insane. Can we just, like, if that's going to be the case, if we are going to have an apron to NBA, can we get out of talking about every player by their $45 million price tag? Like, I just don't care how much CJ McCollum makes at the end of the day. I know we have to be realistic. I know there's a dovetailing conversation with expectations and reality. But ultimately, I would like to talk about basketball. And I feel like we spend way too much time as a broader basketball society talking about

spreadsheet bullshit. Yeah. need a more neoliberal, deregulatory environment in the NBA. Y'all could clip that, y'all can put that wherever y'all want. That's what we need in the NBA. Bring it back because this is just nuts.

And also, like, I do wonder if, maybe there are fans who are just, like, the, like, Sabonis pointed out that the Kings are still three. 54 games left. They're three games out of fifth place or whatever, right? No longer, by the way. They have since slipped.

This sort of, you know, eternally optimistic environment. Maybe that stokes more enthusiasm for the fans. I haven't seen any proof of that. It feels like most people are just like, oh, all these teams seem like they're middling. But, you know, maybe I'm wrong. I have a more bold idea, if you allow me. I'll take the win and just like, double down here and just throw it all away. What if, if such an issue is the fact that big markets

have so much sway over the wants and needs of the best stars and because stars matter so much in the NBA, what if we got rid of all small markets and everybody just played in big markets? So how many, who fits the criteria to you? This is music to my ears. You just throw me to the wolves here. And I guess the wolves in particular, the Minnesota Timberwolves fans, like, Washington, Charlotte. It'd be tough for them to have a team anymore. Milwaukee.

You just have five teams in New York. You have five teams in L.A. It's like, it's almost like EPL. You know, everyone's just kind of in the same area or even like whatever ones are just based in London. Like you have seven teams in the same area. So there isn't really a market advantage. It's all about team construction and maybe, you know, money.

L.A., New York. Miami, some of the Texas teams. That's it. Those are the only teams I get to. We're criminally online now, too. People don't want to go to things. Just the idea that we snatch the team out of Seattle to throw them in Oklahoma. Sorry, Tyler Parker, I love you, is nuts.

But whatever, that's neither here nor there. I think ultimately, I don't know that I care enough about the NBA as a business to advocate for something like this. I just don't care if the NBA is maximized in terms of its profits. Now, if we're talking about, as you said, Justin, the basketball consequences of those things of where players want to play, then I think I'm more open to it. But also, like, there's a room for glamour markets that are not necessarily the biggest markets.

And that's where we're kind of talking cross with. I want to maximize NBA enthusiasm. I don't give a shit what they're doing on the money side. Like, that's their business. But, like, golly, let's maximize. some level of freaking excitement about what we're doing here. And the way to do that is coastal elitism at the end of the day. And also, Justin, I have to say from your perspective, quite selfless,

because you are advocating for Portland to lose its team and to give it to L.A., basically. Yeah, we will now be the L.A. 3 Trailblazers. There you go. The Highland Park Trailblazers. Just throw a new arena out there. Yeah. I mean, I'm just all for democracy, you know. Rob, do you want to do another one of yours?

This is getting real granular. We're getting more into the actual flow of the game. We need to stop challenging plays where there are not points at stake. If it's just like an out of bounds in the second quarter, what are you doing? Why are you challenging that? Get rid of the challenge just generally. Honestly, I'm totally down with that too. But so long as it exists, it needs to be used for plays of actual consequence.

And like a momentum changing out of bounds call is not enough. That's a good question, though. Has the challenge made basketball better or more enjoyable? Well, Billy Kennedy's delivery of the verdict has made basketball better, but the actual challenges, no. Not a single person has ever been like, oh, thank God, we've got instant replay now. Oh, my goodness. We need more stoppage in the final two minutes.

What did we do before this? Oh, my God. This is so great. Watching the, looking at your TV, staring at refs, staring at monitors, like looking confused. like, this is just great for the game. Everybody loves this. I would even go as far as to say it's bad for kids. If you are a child watching the NBA

and you are brought up to understand, for one, that you should be calling for replay anytime you play basketball, but also, let me tell you, there's no replay review in real life. There is none. Your circumstances are inherently unfair. Sometimes you just get screwed

and you have to move on with your life. That's a life's lesson right there. This is what I'm talking about. There are people all around you who are going to make arbitrarious, decisions about how you live your life that are going to fuck you over. And you need to get used to that at a very formative age. Sometimes you'll have a hot tub in your building that's out of service for months and nobody even explains it to you building management. Nobody as to why this

amenity isn't even available. And it's been months and nobody said anything. That may or may not be a personal issue that I'm experiencing, but that's life. Who can say if it's one was, going through. Here's a hoop idea. Next live pod from Waz's hot tub. Let's do it. First, first hoop idea, fix Waz's hot tub. Second, new idea, get us all in there. Let's do it. It circles back to my whole thing about we're constantly undermining the refs. And so we build in these new mechanisms in order to get the game right, like to get the calls on the court right, but it doesn't actually help the product. All it does is save the NBA from the inevitable two-minute report the next day or the news are like, oh, they actually got it wrong.

And so it really only helps marginally this veil that the refs are omnipidant and they get everything right. Honestly, I go back to my POP-Mobile idea. I think nobody should talk to the refs and we should just listen to them and whatever they say goes. We should know less about each other and especially about NBA referees. That's for sure. Unfortunately, I think what makes all of this so thorny is that the NBA is now so in bed with sports gambling culture,

that the verdicts of these individual plays are supercharged. And thus, the existence of something like a challenge is like the one last corrective you can reach for. If you're living and dying with these games, say, oh my God, at least they got that one play right that swung my over under. But like, if that's where we are, we're so screwed.

This segment brought to you by Fandual, America's number one. Here's the thing, too. And again, I get it. The NFL has. way more leeway to piss people off and get on people's nerves than the NBA or anything in the history of life does. But like, if you follow the NFL even a little bit, you know that the Kansas City Chiefs and the refs being like in cahoots is like, it's more than a meme. It's like, oh my God.

It's nuts. You can't really see any fan generated chiefs content that doesn't make reference to like, you know, like Pat Mahomes sending them gift baskets and shit like that. And everybody just has fun with it. It's hilarious. All right. I have two before we go here. One is semi-related, or at least related to basketball.

So we'll go with that one first. We need some sort of asterisk or some sort of like addendum when a player goes over into overtime. And we need to aster's stat line. And so I constantly see like, oh, this guy put up 50. points, but with five extra minutes. And it's not the same playing field. And I constantly see this. And it's like it warps your mind when you're going through basketball reference and just

like the logs of the game. Like, yeah, like a player is doing better because they have more opportunity to add more points. And so we need to find a way to like mark this. Just so frankly, just me. Just as bad. Players are being praised for continuing excellent play into overtime. I just want the field.

to be the same for everyone, you know? Not everyone gets to play 47 minutes, like Nicolioch each every night because his team is garbage. Yeah, listen, if you play for the Knicks, you do, I could tell you that. That's for sure. I do agree with this, though. I think overall, like, some markation of overtime games would be good in the official record. Also, some way to include or legitimize the NBA Cup games as having actually existed

would be nice. The fact that we're talking about, like, teams, silly. Like winning streaks and losing streaks continuing around the cup. The stats not factoring into the official like season totals or season averages. It's just kind of weird. Yeah. Also, like, I don't like if the, why shouldn't the Bucks extra wins in the cup not count towards their winning percentage for the season?

I don't care if the Celtics end up playing less games or whatever the hell it is or whoever. Well, not even the Celtics. They're probably not going to catch the Celtics to the Cavs. But like, somebody else who wasn't in the cup, it's like, bro, I played. really good teams to earn these freaking wins. Like, what are you talking about? It's because LeBron cares about the record books a lot and talks about it constantly. I guarantee there's like a small percentage of that's why.

Because it disrupts like how many games. When you look back in history, everybody played just like in the same way that they don't want to. That's so silly because everybody does it. Like nobody's going to play more than 82 games this year. Maybe McKell Bridges will. I shouldn't say that because he seems to play. every single year, but like, nobody's going to play more than the maximum allowable games per season. Here's the thing, too.

What are we doing? If there was a team, like say that if you may get all the way to the NBA Cup final, that counts as an 83rd game at the end of the day, wouldn't that be a good marker in the history books to very easily and quickly say, oh, those were the teams that were in the cup because they have 83 game total. I don't see what's so bad about it. I don't, I don't know. If we're going to play 82, what the

fuck is an 83. And the idea that the NBA's all-time records have some, there's some sanctity to those records, like, you know, and I'm a LeBron guy, but like the fact that, remember when they were counting his double digits point street and pretending like the Mavs game never happened in the finals, that got on my nerves. I was like, well, guys, um, there was a pretty important game where he didn't drop double figures, but whatever. That's the need of. the hint or there. But yeah, the OT thing, Justin, is funny because Yonkis paid 43 minutes last night. Like, so what if it was OT? Josh Hart does that every single regular game. So like, you know what I mean? Like what we do here? Support Josh Hart is the ultimate point here.

This is a much more important gripe and one that we really need to solve here. Pants are just too big. Just seeing the kids, these giant pants. Yeah, the big Janko jeans is back. Yes. They need like the chain wallet or they need to go to Bob's in order to get the Jankos. They're just huge. It's like hammer pants now. Like you can fit like four people in these pants. This is the most millennial coded take that's ever been on this podcast. That's really saying something.

And that's the point because like if you look back 10 years from now, I guarantee some of us on this call might have been wearing pants that were way too skinny for them. they were just clinging way too tight. And I regret that. And so this is more of like a PSA to the younger generation. You're going to regret this. Don't get caught up so deeply in the trends. Because when you go to the extremes, my friend, you'll look back and you'll be like,

what the fuck was I thinking? 100%. But isn't that also like a neat marker for the passage of time? You can look back and be like, why did I have that haircut? Why did I have that facial hair? Why was I wearing pants that were three times too big? Your pants right now.

Show me your pants. I will not be showing you. any pants on this podcast. Because he's not wearing any, ladies and gentlemen. Spoiler alert. No comment on that. But look, I'm not partaking in the ginko-sized jeans. I didn't at the time, to be honest with you, because my parents expressly forbidden.

Maybe because they were of the Justin Barrier School. They were like, no, you don't need that. And they were right. Early 2000s, early to mid-2000s for me, high school, early college was three to four-X white T's headbands. when you weren't playing basketball. Just recreational headbands. Just recreationally wearing a headband. Just horrible, horrible looks for all of us.

These Jabot jeans that had all kinds of like straps and letters on them. It was a disgusting era for clothing. But, you know, we lived, we learned, we survived it. This is what every generation goes through, though. Related to this. We talked about the jerseys. Obviously, we need to get back to home whites. Obviously, we need to half the amount of alternate jerseys that exist.

Obviously, you know, special occasions like Christmas and shit like that, Lange demarcation, cool, whatever. Another thing that I don't think it's discussed, the sneaker situation. We used to be stricter about the actual colors of sneakers that people could wear in-game. That shit clashes and looks. nasty on my TV too. Let's get back to being more strict about the actual colorways of the

sneakers that guys can wear. Let's get back to that. Reserick David Stern from the freaking Graveport, please. For the love of God. I like this take. What if we just had drab colors that only our comrades would approve of? Like what?

Just like the blanket. I'm making a communist joke where it's like we're just completely filter out all color joy from life and we just have like olives uh you know your your description of communists is just so just western propagandized which you're talking about is fascism just it's very different uh i am okay with fewer jerseys there are way too many and there are too many bad jerseys like the new jersey every year like we ran out a good idea is five years ago and when you have a good idea just fucking stick with it it's fine uh

The white and road colors, like that, I don't care about that. You guys are so wrapped up. I do. I do. I do. There's two different colors. We have color TVs. It's fine.

No. Brand identification, contrast. These things are important. Oh, the team of white is at home. Oh, okay. Cool. Dope. Or just a giant logo.

Like, there's a giant screaming hawk in the middle of the floor. Like, who could this be? Yeah, but that hawk could be completely different colors from the colors the hawks themselves are actually wearing. It's like, bro, it's craziness. All right. I also have a gripe about Sidney being the ultimate bad hang,

but that's a whole other story. We can get into the social show. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why don't we wrap it there? Merry Christmas to all. Happy Hanukkah. Whatever you celebrate. I hope you do with people you love Festivists,

real Festivist, NBA Festivus. Justin, the war on Kwanza needs to stop. Please. I love Kwanza. Happy Kwanza to those who celebrate. I know my brother Zay does. Absolutely. We'll be back next Monday.

So a week from now, we're off for the holidays for the rest of this week. We'll be back then. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to all of you guys for listening to us. We'll talk to you in a week. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C.

Gambling problem. Call 1,800 gambler. visit rg dash help.com. Call 188-78-98-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or 800-327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call one 8778-8-Hope NY or text hope NY in New York.