The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Fact or Fiction, Plus Coaching Hot Stove | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 7, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by running through some NBA Finals story lines and deciding whether they are fact or fiction (6:20). Then they briefly talk about Quin Snyder’s resignation (48:07). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up? It's Ricillo with the Ryan Rissala podcast on The Ringer and Spotify. Make sure you're checking us out every Tuesday and every Thursday episodes through an NBA playoff run that is unpredictable as maybe any that I've ever seen in covering this sport. And also the NFL draft that doesn't have the top headliners at QB, but our guest, I put it up against anybody, the best draft analyst in the business to be joining us almost every week prior to the draft. And a little break from all the sports, having fun, telling stories, and trying to give out. some life advice to the listeners out there that feel like they need it. And by the way, just like sports, I don't always get that stuff right either, but at least it's fun to listen to. Listen and

follow the Ryan Rusilla podcast on Spotify. Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. Joining me as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Guys, did you hear Pat Riley yesterday talk about how every week he opts in with his wife? You know, he brings her back. He rolls it back. He runs it back. Yeah, it's how I feel about this podcast and you guys. I just want you to know that every week I opt in and I decide to come to work with you guys. I was about to say if you feel the same way he does about his wife, I'm like, do we got to get HR involved here? It's all love, you know? You guys were just at the NBA Finals. Yes, sir. How was that? What was it like in person? Give us some on the ground details. NBA Finals, good event, as it turns out, you know, good basketball, loud

building, a ball goes through hoop. It worked out pretty well. Okay. So this is the first time I've been to the final since 2016, which I went to the two games in Cleveland where literally by game four where Cleveland just got mauled and they were down 3-1. And I remember taking a Snapchat of this girl who couldn't have been more than like 19, 20 years old. And she was on the sit, she was sitting on the sidewalk outside of a bar,

uncontrollably sobbing. Right? This is after Cleveland went down at 3-1. I was just like, guys, I get it. Like, we love the team, but really, is this what it's come to? That was not the scene in Golden State. Even after game one, of course, they ended up winning game two. And I thought the atmosphere inside of Oracle was pretty good. I heard some people, People say it was like, man, I thought it was damn good. But again, as I like to tell people, most of my NBA in-game experience has been clipper games where the loudest cheers are for free Chick-fil-A. So I don't know, like, Oracle, excuse me, Chase Center seems like a big step up in the right direction. Yeah, I mean, I've spent the last, most of the last two years in my apartment.

So any remotely loud building feels pretty, pretty freaking loud to me. But, Waz, I think we need to circle back on your Bay Area. evaluation. You know, while you were out in the bay, it didn't seem like you were enthused to be in that particular locale. Look. Oh, no. Look, I stayed in San Francisco to be as close to the stadium as possible in the financial district or whatever, which is close to Union Square, close to all this other stuff too. It's not, it's not hard to get anywhere important. And what I've found out is that basically it's kind of hard to go somewhere late and either eat or listen to loud music anywhere in the city, which is just like, as a New Yorker, something that I've taken

for granted, even in L.A., which is pretty early too. And that's a problem for me. And then, you know, you ask people like, all right, so what do people get jazzed about paying these absurd rents and all of that in San Francisco? Nature. I'm like, yeah, not. I just, I just, I, I, look, man, I hate trashing people's cities because it comes off as a certain way, especially as a native New Yorker. It's like expected of you to just hate on everything, which I generally fall in the category of. But like, I just, I'm trying to love it. I'm trying to embrace SF as a place, as a concept.

I can't do it. And then Friday night I went to Oakland with a mean, so my man Mark Spears, my man Vinny Goodwill. my man Jay and Donde, you know, Black Media Illuminati shit. And Oakland is just the exact opposite. As soon as we, I got out the damn Uber, it was people everywhere. It was loud as hell. There's people playing like music out of boombox. There's people playing live music.

This is all at like 10.30 at night, mind you. I'm like, all right, yeah, this is more to speed that I'm looking for. However, I still think I'm going to stay in San Francisco because I don't feel like traveling far for games. convenience wins every time. Yes, every time. Rob, is that your Oakland experience too? Absolutely.

Black Media Illuminati. Well, I don't get the invite to those particular meetings, but, you know, I'll wait, I'll hold out hope. But I think, look, I think if we come back for game five, I guess we have to come back for game five, we're going to try to win Waz over again. We already got one, like every person who's on this call right now, us, Isaiah Ben, we all went out to a nice ringer team dinner. JV, you did not get that invite.

Sorry. I think I must... I just paid for it. Yeah. I forgot to text you. I'll hit you up next time. But I think we're going to win Waz's over one meal at a time in SF. That food, that Peruvian rotisserie chicken was...

They had a hot sauce that was perfect. That was... The grub I did very, very much enjoy. I ate so much damn food in San Francisco. Thank you, Spotify. We love to hear it. SF. I didn't even know SF was a thing. So I'm just learning so much from you guys. All right. On the docket for today, we're going to get into some coaching hot stove because some moves are starting to percolate, starting to get some business done on that end as we turn to the offseason or at least 28 teams. And the NBA does. But first, let's talk about the NBA finals, the big event on everyone's schedule of this week. We're going into game three on Wednesday. We're recording on Tuesday morning.

So we're a little bit in between. You know, we've already assessed everything happening in the first two games. We want to preview a little bit going into game three. I figure we'll play a little factor fiction finals edition. And let's start it here as a way to kind of maybe just get a grasp of this series. Factor fiction, Draymond Green was right. Now, this could apply to a lot of different things because Draymond has said many, many things. But specifically, and Robbie wrote about this the other day, after game one, he basically,

suggested that the Celtics below average three-point shooters would not do so again. Al Horford, Derek White, Marcus Smart, shot 15 for 23 from 3 in the first game, two for seven in the second game, and obviously they won the first, lost the second. Do you think ultimately

that estimation of like what was going to happen is right, or is there more to this? I mean, he unquestionably was right, right? Like just by the box score was right. But this, I think, was a little more complex than Dremond up at the front of the class in the Tweed jacket

teaching us about regression to the mean. They played totally differently. The Warriors did defensively. They changed some of their matchup stuff. They ramped up their defensive energy. They actually closed out to those same guys who were hitting shots. Thank you.

Including in the first half of this game too. Like Derek White hit two threes. And then after that, the warriors started taking him seriously. There was one position where I think it was Draymond and I want to say Gary Payton both closed out on a Derek White three and made him travel. So that's the difference in the kind of intensity

and the kind of focus that those guys are getting at this point in the series is now you're getting a double close out from two of the best defenders on the team. That's what you have warranted in terms of the Warriors' attention. Yeah, I think Jermann, his overall point at that presser was that there's no reason for the Warriors to jump out the window

and act like this series is in hand for Boston, right? There's plenty of things that they can do. I don't know that he was right about the shooting part. Those threes that they took in game one, there were a couple of Derek White threes that were like, okay, this guy's ridiculously open. I mean, he made a ridiculously hard shot. But most of those other threes, as Rob mentioned,

were practice level, test the win with your finger, take a three type of situation. So I don't think he was wrong about that. I mean, right about that. And I think where he was super wrong is that Boston's defense just wasn't up to snuff in this game. And, you know, in the first half I tweeted of game one, I was, you know, it was like, are they going to start playing Steph Curry like he's the best shooter that ever lived? Or are they going to treat him as if he's Rajan Rondo and sag off of his, you know, his pull-up three-pointers?

It was ridiculous. And I think a lot of the stuff they did in this game was just bad defensive execution. Big Al was scared to come up to the level. They're losing Steph in transition again. it was rare to see Steph do the hard, you know, jab step into the paint, step back, pull up three over a guy, creating space, which is like, as far as energy consumption, those are the hardest things to get off in the game. It's rare that he had to do that.

Most of the time, he's coming off a screen, nice and calm, his screener, freaking plants a guy, so he's wide open. And he's just like, look, I've been doing this my whole life. This is easy. So yeah, no, Draymond was not right about that. Yeah, before we pivot to what Boston was doing on defense and the wars were doing on offense, I do want to like address some of what the warriors are doing defensively first here. Because I do think this fits into my kind of follow-up question.

Rob, you brought up kind of the two key aspects here. Was it like the physicality that jumped off the screen if you were watching from home like I was just because Drayman was involved in so many kerfuffles, let's say, near technicals, should have been technicals, whatever you want to call them? Or was it more like a schematic thing? And because like a lot has been made in the aftermath of the physicality and probably because it's so, I don't know, it's just like it's easy to talk about. I think because Draymond's evolved in the near text.

I get out of my mentions about the damn missed calls. I hate Ref Twitter, by the way. Yeah. Right. But I mean, you guys were there. So like how much did the physicality that Draymond and the wars play with it? Did it really like you think affect things? Well, now I want to just start tracking potential.

technicals. You know, we track potential assists. Can we track every post-confrontation kerfuffle Draymond is in? Just to get a running tally of what's going on. Just to check the Twitterati and the Celtics claims against the facts. But, uh, I will say this just briefly,

the non-Double tech with Jalen Brown was pretty egregious. There's notice of, see, egregious implies that we care that he, like we wanted him to get ejected. I would rather all things being equal, he'd not get ejected. By the way, I was sitting next to Nate Duncan for this game, and he very astutely, before

the call was even made, he was like, Zach Zarba doesn't like to throw people out. And that's what ended up happening. Like, Zagsar was like, bro, we're not throwing this dude out in the first quarter of the damn game or whatever it was for this regular playoff little shoving match. Like, although I thought it was hilarious that he used, he used him as an obvious. him in, he just rested his two legs on the dude. That shit was so funny. But I'm, you know, I don't want to see guys get kicked out of game for that kind of stuff. This is the NBA finals, man. It should be decided on the court. Yeah, if you're a ref, that's the reputation you want,

is the Zach Zarber rep. You want to be the guy who doesn't throw people out. Don't ruin the game. Yeah, no, I agree with you guys. I just think like, I wonder if Dremont is almost finding the loophole here where he knows if he gets one tech, he can. kind of do whatever he wants because nobody's going to want to throw him out. And like he seemed to even up his aggression after he got that first deck. And so I don't want to give him an advantage. That's all. Yeah. I mean, I think that's fair. And he certainly, I mean, he is habitual line stepper, Draymond Green. So there, there is a history of that kind of behavior. Absolutely.

I think you're right that his physicality, his energy played a huge role in that game. I mean, it dictated terms from the opening possession. He ripped the ball, or at least jump ball, like, you know, locked up Al Horford on the very first office. defensive possession for the Celtics. That was kind of who he was throughout this game, into people, challenging people, pushing, holding, doing everything he could get away with. And that changed a lot of what they were doing in terms of their matchups

and what they were able to do defensively. Like, when you shift the line and you shift the battleground like that against a team that's as talented and as capable as the Celtics, you're going to win some ground doing that stuff. But as far as like, was it his physicality or was it their strategic decisions as a team that kind of swung the defensive balance of this game? they seem kind of inextricable to me

because the decision to put Draymond on Jalen Brown for example, which was a big matchup change in this game, that allows you to get into Jalen Brown more because Clay Thompson isn't on him anymore kind of like treading water and holding on for dear life. So once you change that matchup,

you put yourself in a position to be more physical, if that makes sense. Yeah, and there was, to speak even further to that, there was some like strategic changes behind the play. Like, even when guys were getting penetration, you know, people like Otto Porter and stuff were doing great as zoning up these guys. And Jason Tatum had an incredible floor game in game one. He had 13 assists. And so what they did was they timed their zone-ups, they time their switches. They time their helps. And, you know, Jason Tatum, God bless him. He's

gotten better throughout his career at playmaking and finding people. He ain't no damn Luca Donchich. And, you know, a couple of times he threw into some turnovers and stuff like that. Like, they were smarter about their defense, but I didn't think Boston was getting, like, horrible looks at all. Like, it didn't feel that way. In fact, they came out and they were winning this game, something like 23 to 12 or something like that to start the game.

Like I said, I thought it was on the other end where they sort of lost the plot. And I think, you know, like Jason Tatum, he, I think, smartly was trying to draw contact, trying to get some files, trying to get to the line. And I think he did it a few times in timely fashion to like stop a couple of runs, right? Like where it's like, all right, cool, let me get two free throws here to stop the bleeding. But oftentimes it's just like, yo, these guys are kind of smaller than you. Just rise in fire over these dudes. You're a great mid-range shooter.

You are great with that step back to your left. Just shoot over these cats. I feel like that's a direct knock on our friend the mitten. you know? I mean. I mean, I think it's unavoidable that the minute in minutes made a difference. One might say someone saw this coming going into the series. Oh boy, here we go.

I did not know very who was going to come in here and do his freaking Rick Flair strut and take a victory lap here. Listen, first game, Al Horford. in his 15-year career just happens to make six three-pointers most he's ever made. What did he do in? What might have called him? What are he doing in game two? That's why we didn't lead the podcast with this because of the thing.

But the question was specifically who is the most important player? And like the fact that he didn't play so well, one might argue, means that his effect on the game was very important to whether or not they win or lose. Anyway, no, but I do wonder if like those sort of, rotational adjustments help too. Like I guess Iguidal is just hurt yet again. Like I don't really know what's going on with him,

but just not having him out there and having someone is active, uh, and is, is like defensively capable as our friend of Mitt. And like, I do think it made a difference like plus 15 in 25 minutes. And like, you know,

he made an open three, which is like all you could really ask for him. And, uh, you know, they went to him a little bit more than they did in Jordan Poole in certain situations. And like, I think it's,

it's, really important to have another wing defender on a team that's like not getting peak clay and like doesn't really have anyone to turn to in that role aside from like I guess ostensibly Andrew Wiggins. Yeah. So here's the difference between Andre Aguadala and Gary Payton. Andrew Godala, brilliant basketball player still I think played pretty well defensively in his first game back. All things considered. So I mean, he got blown by a few times. There were some problems. But he is who he is on that end of the court. He is who he is on offense. And we saw in the third quarter of game two, when the Warriors are going pick and roll bonanza

and the Celtics are doing everything they can to hide Al Horford from Steph just getting torched in the pick and roll. One of the things they did was they put they put Horford on Gary Peyton, challenging the Warriors to use Gary Payton as the screener in the pick and roll. And guess what they did? And it worked. You put Andre Aguadala in that situation. He's rolling down the middle of the lane. Let me tell you, Item 1A on the scattering report, Andre Aguadala will not attempt a layup. He won't do it. He refuses to do it.

He's not a threat rolling down the middle of the floor. He's not a threat moving toward the basket in almost any scenario unless he's like 100% sure he can dunk it. It's just tough to plug him into some of these really dynamic offensive situations at his age and with his current injury and expect him to be a finals level performer or the Andreo D'uadala he used to be. He's just not that guy right now. And I like what Gary Payton,

the second. I've had like this conversation three times this week. Why is he not a junior? I don't know. We got to get one of our intrepid reporters on that. I like what he does in transition. Like there was that phantom call on

Jalen Brown, which he ended up going to the line. He missed the dunk or whatever. But he also puts pressure on transition on a rim. Rob mentioned he's a lob threat when he rose to the basket. He's just more dynamic. Even when he's not shooting, it's just, you know, if he's going to plan a guy on a solid screen, he's on the Jason Tatum stuff, yeah, he can shoot over him.

But if you get in the guy's airspace and, you know, the way the game is being called, you can be more physical than would normally be expected. You sort of mitigate that advantage that Tatum has on you if you were just all up in his grill, right? And so, yeah, I think he did change things defensively. And what matters is like it's not just how good he is. It's the drop off from him defensively and his counterparts being pool and clay. Like that's why it's huge. It's like the drop off is so significant. We're like the Celtics have it in their mind and you can tell whenever Jordan Poole is on somebody.

They're just like, it's lunchtime. You know what I mean? We got to go to work on this kid. And that's just not going to be the case. when you're facing Wiggins, Draymond, or Gary Payton the second. Yeah, that trio, when they were on the floor together, was the best the Warriors have looked defensively all series so far.

No surprise. But the fact that those lineups could also key big offensive runs at the same time, that was a huge development. I think that's kind of the lineup to watch right now is Wiggins and Peyton and Draymond out there with Steph and insert, whether it's Auto Porter or Clay, wherever you wanted to that fifth spot. That's kind of where the Warriors are headed, I think.

Wow. It's mitten time. Who saw it coming? Since we're kind of on the subject already, why don't we talk about Clay? Fact or fiction, there's something wrong with Clay. Was, what do you think? Do you think, like, health-wise or just like even psychologically?

He once tore his fucking ACL and his Achilles back-to-back. Yeah, there's something wrong with the dude. Like, he's not a freaking, you know, a plotting big man. He's a guy that needs to play with movement and quick twitch and explosion. and yeah, those are two of the worst injuries in the damn sport. And so, no, he doesn't look like a ballerina out there the way he used to. Yeah, that's a fact. His lateral movement is not what it used to be.

This is a guy who, again, I'll bring it up every single time. In 2016, that series turned around. Clay Thompson put the damn clamps on Westbrook, the most explosive, athletic, quickest, fastest guard we might have ever seen at that position. and Clay Thompson in 2016 just put that man in a straight jacket. He ain't doing that anymore, right? And then conversely on the offensive end,

please, when he puts the ball on the floor, it's like, oh my God, just stop it already. Just don't even think about it with these damn tarantulas that Boston got on their team. Like Clayton, this is not the series for you to be playing with this dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble stuff. So, yeah, he's not the same guy that he used to be, but he's still a threat.

Right? We talk about in transition what Gary Payton can do with the rim. This guy is causing the same amount of panic at the three point line when he's fanning out. And when he comes off of screens, they got to guard it. When him and Steph are setting screens for each other, that's just panic time for the defense. Like, he's still a threat. But no, he ain't the same guy that he used to be. I mean, if you, you know, unless you, you ain't changed your prescription for your glasses, anybody can see this. Well, I think the question probably is even is he worse than the diminished version that we've seen from Clay throughout the season. And I think one of my main concerns is he's still operating in his mind as Clay Thompson of old. And is he not going, is he going to take too many shots when he's off when he should probably be kicking out? Should they be like limiting his minutes in certain situations when he doesn't have it and giving those minutes to Jordan Poole or maybe Gary Payton or somebody else? and they won't do that because he's Clay Thompson. It's possible. I think the reputation could come into play at certain points,

especially just from like a Steve Kerr, who do I trust mentality? It's hard not to trust Clay Thompson, given his history, given his ability to explode in potential games. Like that could be incredibly valuable. But as for whether he's worse in this series compared to the Clay Thompson we've seen throughout the season

or in previous series, I think he's just playing against an incredible defensive team and he's smothered by guys like Jalen Brown all game long who are making him look even slower and even less twitchy because he's going against guys who have size and speed who have everything that Clay himself used to have and doesn't. It's tough.

I think what really is tricky is what you identify, Justin. Can Clay be effective without being full boat clay all the time, hunting the kinds of shots he used to hunt? The stuff that really kills me is the stuff inside the arc because it's clear he's not getting to the basket at this point. And so he's settling for a lot of really tough drifting, fading, one-footed type, like pull-up jumpers from mid-range. So it's just not what you want out of some of these possessions.

And he's just not a guy who resets the offense. That's not what he does. You know, like if the shot isn't there, he's going to keep hunting for a shot. He's kind of an end point to a possession, whereas some of these other warriors guys will keep working, keep churning, keep facilitating until they find something else. Clay, for better or worse, has never really been that guy. And the thing that kills me about what he's doing right now, when he had that 30-whatever-point quarter that one time,

all the fucking noise coming out of that was, man, he did it on like four dribbles. Right? And like, he still looks good coming off of screens on the catch-and-shoot when he squires his body. That shot still looks amazing to me, whether it's beyond the arc or inside the arc. It's when he starts playing around and doing his God Sham God impersonation that I'm just like, all right, I don't know that this is the right route for this team that has Steph that has Jordan Poole who are just way better on ball creators. They're just like by measures of like exponentially better, you know. And so it's suboptimal for him to be playing that way.

And I hope that he gets it through his head. And, you know, I got news for y'all, man. Steve Kerr, if you keep fucking around with his defense and you doing all this crazy shit on him, he's going to sit you. This is the finals. I'm sorry. Like, you don't have to play, Clay Thompson. He's running picking roles now.

Like, this is a whole new Steve Kerr. He's a, he's militant. He's ready to just cut him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even if you do about a numbers, like, it's not like, they're not some ridiculously heavy pick and roll attack. It's just for the Warriors. It's like, oh my God, they're actually running

their most effective play. Right, right. No, well, just before we flip to stuff here quickly, do you think Clay likes Jordan Poole? Like, I think it's probably tough for for anyone to hate Clay Thompson. But there are

just like some vibes like permeating on the TV screen or just like emanating from the TV screen sometimes where I'm like, I don't know if he loved. like the Jordan Poole experience and the fact that like he is kind of coming up from behind him. I look

I think Clay is the type of cat you know if people will remember when they got KD he was like oh man it's just more open shots for me right? So I think that's his mentality no matter what I don't think he sees Jordan Pool as some

entity that he needs to be deferential to. The guy doesn't see himself is deferential to anybody when it comes to offense and getting shots up. I've got it on decent authority that there has been some awkward attention, being that they play the same position and the same role. But, yeah, I don't know. Like, when Jordan Poole made that incredible, which is one of the most craziest shots I've ever seen, like he does a move and pulls up from half court and takes a normal jump shot

and swishes that thing. Like you see Steph going nuts and just loving it. Yeah, those vibes weren't emanating from Clayton. So I'm saying. Yeah. I'm glad it's not just me.

But that hates Jordan Pool. Do you feel, do you feel that kind of animosity toward Jordan Pool? I'm pretty indifferent about Jordan Pool. Although I do think we kind of anointed him as the next step a little too soon.

Like seems like a pretty adequate sixth man who could potentially turn into something down the road. Let's give it a little more time. All right. But speaking of the real stuff, here's my next question. Factor Fisian. Steph is breaking Boston's defense like no other player before this postseason.

I'm cribbing this from Nate Duncan, who said this in the midst of game too. And he's not outright saying that other players haven't had more success because Janus had three 40 plus games. Butler had two pretty amazing games. But it does feel like the Celtics on defense. fence are searching for answers for Steph in ways that they probably wouldn't. And I do wonder if you're looking back on the first two games that we've seen, like if you remove the outlier fourth quarter in game one, you look back on it. You're like, Steph's actually been doing some pretty good

work here. So I wonder, Rob, do you think like there's any truth to that? Yeah. He's, he's giving them more problems than anybody else, even like a Yannis or a Butler. Well, he just gives them different problems that they're not built to solve. No one is really built to solve. You know, like the Celtics are one of the better switching teams in the NBA, and they're still not built to solve the problems that Steph creates. And when you think about, like, what made Boston's defense good this season? It's like spot for spot, they have a lot of really good defenders.

The way they position Robert Williams around the basket and allow him to roam and block shots, it's like, that doesn't really matter. Like, it doesn't really matter spot for spot if you're great across the board defensive. It doesn't really matter if you're protecting the rim, if Steph is going to pull up off one screen that comes six feet beyond, like beyond the three point line, and he's stepping into open shots

because all of your bigs are going to just get roasted by him off the dribble. I don't know who's supposed to solve that. I don't know who's supposed to have the answers for that. But as far as the other match of the Celtics have had, like playing Janus is a great training exercise for guarding Jimmy Butler. You know, like they operate in similar spaces on the floor.

They're different players. But like the mechanics of how you do those things, are similar, there's nothing like guarding Steph. There just isn't. Yeah, and, you know, the problem that I've noticed for the Celtics defense is most of the found money man with the stuff has been against Big Al, who, you know, they rely on the guy. And he's just been deathly afraid to step out on Steph. He just doesn't have confidence in his ability to stay in front of him.

And so he just stays back, which obviously is the death knell. I think the answer would have normally been the time lord where he's so huge, so explosive, so athletic, he covers so much more ground. But he's not feeling as mobile or looking as mobile as he would have normally been. So now it's just like Grant Williams has to be the guy that steps up on these switches. And early on in the series, to be honest with you, I'm somebody who was like, you need to let Steph isolate. the amount of space that he's creating against Grant Williams is not tenable, right?

Like, it's okay for Steph to get some level of daylight on his off-to-jurble one-on-one step-back thing, but he's creating like, you know, vistas between him and Grant Williams so far this series. And so that's what I think the problem has been. It's like the big men haven't been able to deal with Steph in any meaningful way. And there's been times where Horford, you know, he's switched on the same. Steph, he trust his help, and the help came, and Steph kicked it out, and, you know, they were playing two other non-shooters, and so the defense can look stabilized. But other times, Horford just doesn't seem confident in what he's supposed to do when he

is matched up on an island with Steph. And I wonder if there's going to be some fixes for that. I think Boston's going to make some adjustments to that. But Horford is the guy. He's the one who the warriors have identified and said, we are bringing this man in screening role. Boston adjust and sends another guy puts out on a different guy like

say Gary Payton and they're like no Gary Payton come set the screen like they want out in those actions and we'll see if he responds. Yeah I mean it doesn't seem like the Celtics are confident in him either which then puts him in a really awkward headspace you know like they were switching

and to your point was like they went to this other they went back to this drop again that has just been a disaster for them all series but it seemed like they were so worried about him getting torched off the switch that they're caught between all these different potential coverages, none of which are great, all of which seem to center around Al and Steph just kind of destroying him one way or another. I don't know what the answer for that is other than if you want to just trap him outright, Steph, and force the ball of his hands. And then you're

getting into the classic Warriors, four on three, three on two, Draymond picking out guys situation that nobody really wants to see if you're playing against them. I think you've got to stay true to the switch though, because, and you know, I've had some snarky Warriors fans hitting me like, oh, look at Steph's, you know, isolation, points per pretension, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, first of all, that's not on at the volume and scale that I'm talking about. I'm like, he should have to do this all game. And I understand when he makes a step back long two against Grant Williams.

You're like, man, can we really sustain this? I think you have to believe in the process and believe in your defender's ability to make him work and do it over the course of a game over the course of a series. And I think that's the only answer. This four or three shit, that's death. You're going to die. I'm with you. You need to trust in your league leading defense to keep Steph in front and make him shoot over a guy.

That's it. Well, it's going to be an interesting next adjustment for Adoka and specifically what the Celtics defense is going to do against Steph. I think you guys are right. the two big lineup, maybe we don't see that at all, or maybe just in certain doses. And so I would imagine they're going to split up Horford in Williams minutes. I mean, we'll see how many minutes Rob Williams even gets. What do you think about this idea? What do you if the Celtics match small for small and they don't play it big and they actually go with Grant Williams at the five?

because as we saw earlier in game two, like there really wasn't anybody there to protect the rim when there's so much attention higher up on the court, like trying to manage the ballet of what's going on with the Warriors, that there were just so many dump-off passes and so many easy layups anyway.

So I don't know if you're necessarily sacrificing anything at the rim. And I wonder the mobility you get, the switchability you get by putting, I guess it would be Williams and maybe put in Pritchard. I don't know who the four wings would be. But I wonder if that is a potential answer. What do you guys think about that?

Well, but what does it solve? Because Williams is still on the floor. You know, like they're just going to target him like they do, Horford and attack him in similar ways. So unless you're willing to go Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown at the five, which I'm not advocating you do, I think it's a very bad idea. I don't think so.

They're kind of stuck playing one big or another, and the warriors are going to hunt those bigs, whoever they are. And they're going to get some good action out of it. And I think Waz is right. You have to learn to live with some of those outcomes and force Steph into high usage, uncomfortable situations that he hasn't been in all season. He has not been a guy who's been forced to isolate 20 times in a game.

It's just not a thing that has been in his diet. And I get it. In the times that he's picked his poison and done it in these first two games, it's looked great against Grant Williams and Al Horford. But again, I submit to people like, you have to make these guys do it over and over again. And I keep telling folks, like the compounding effect is that it's the exact antithesis of what Golden State has drilled into every single person on that team as to what they should be doing. And so you're taking them out of their normal stuff.

And it's just like, make them do it. He's one of the 10 best players in the league. And I mean, ever in the history of the game. So you're just like, man, should I be doing that? Is this how I want to die? with Steph Curry holding the fucking machete and chopping my neck off or, you know, do I want to force other people

to, by the way, make wide open jump shots? I think this is the better of those options. Some people might think I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel. Now we got Professor Waz up here preaching regression to the mean. Bring those ISO numbers down. Bring them up, yeah, bring them on.

Well, you guys, you know who appreciates a good low rate? Who's that? Our friends at State Farm. That's right. That was like a not egregious transition there. I think I'm pretty good about that one. All right, here we go. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

People assume that a team that wins in the playoffs is putting up huge offensive numbers, but some teams rely on their defense, aka the Boston Celtics, shutting down their opponent's top players and using the full court press. Was, is there someone from this year's NBA playoffs who's put up a top,

defensive game that's caught your eye. Hmm. You know what? I would just say the entire first round series for Jason Tatum against KD. He guarded KD in a way on an island that I've literally never seen before. Or I haven't seen since Tony Allen way, way, way back in the grit and grind days. So, yeah, Jason Tatum and that first round against the guy who's universally recognized as the single best one-on-one score of this time. Jason Tainham deserves

some kudos for that. I mean, let's give some credit to these finals, too, which two of the best defensive teams in the NBA, and in particular, Draymond Green on Jalen Brown, we talked about a little on the pot already. That matchup has changed the series so far. Jalen shot five of 17 in game two, look like a completely different player when Draymond was on him and closing out to him. Just a little change like that can make a huge difference in terms of how the matchups bear out for, you know, just the Celtics ability to stay alive in this series. Well, Draymond Green's defense on Jalen Brown Rob, it's kind of like people that assume they can't afford great insurance.

But then they discover that State Farm has surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Wads brought up Jason Tatum, which brings us to our next probably most important question. A factor fiction, Tatum's Kobe obsession is really fun. fucking weird. So on the one hand, he texts Kobe before game one, I got you today, which like, not an uncommon thing to do with someone struggling with grief, right? You've heard this before. I'm like, okay, process however you want to process, right? But then he shows up to, what

was it, the pre-game two press conference wearing Kobe's exact outfit from his pre-draft workout with the Celtics. And I'm like, this is just really weird. weird. It wasn't just like the shirt. He wore the whole ensemble. He wore the shorts too. And so was, I mean, you were there for it. Was anyone kind of like what's going on with this guy? Is he okay? He's don't forget he's doing the Kobe armband as well. But I want to give a shout out to my good friend Sabrina Merchant, a friend of the podcast. She sent she was like maybe Tatum is in on the joke and this is a bit because I don't know I don't know if he has he has that in him at one point his Instagram profile was like Kobe laying with the basketball on his stomach and a guy who looks exactly like Tatum doing the exact same thing like one on top of the other so like this might be an elaborate troll I really hope so because it's one of those things where like people keep giving this attention.

And am I just supposed to just like be a complete idiot and just be like, yeah, this is totally regular, normal, not ridiculous at all. Like the texting was just like, all. Like you won so you posted it. It's like, okay, we're giving you the texting. But like, it's just weird, man. It's just weird. And I thought we were kind of over.

the like sort of, I don't even know what to call it. Like it was like Kobe porn at a certain point. Oh, it's never going to stop. After he passed away, like, it was like, this is the Kobeization of the Kobe, the Kobe, we're relating everything to Kobe. Like that kind of calmed down. But with this Jason Tatum stuff, it's just gone to a ridiculous level. Like, I mean, bro, like, what is happening?

I think what makes it weird is that it feels so performative, that it's not like, like, you want to, you want to wear the, the training outfit that Kobe wore one time in your private life. You want, you want to go to sleep in that the night before the game. You want to do whatever you want. That's great.

But like, he's wearing it intentionally in front of cameras, in front of media members. He shows up to game two with a shirt with Kobe on it. It's just like all of it. And like, again, you want to send that text to Kobe's old phone. Great. As we said, like, you're dealing with your stuff in your own way. like no problems with that.

But I hesitate as a media member to say maybe don't share that with people, but don't share that with people. Like something should be just for you. Can I counter though? Like if you showed up to your dinner with Waz and the Ringer crew wearing an entire Kobe outfit with like the Boston Celtics workout shirt and the shorts, people would be like, that's really fucking weird.

And like so even in your private life, if Jason Tatum were to do that, I think it's just an incredibly, weird, lame thing to do. But then it's just him being him when he's doing it in this like extremely public, extreme, like a celebrity out in the world

kind of way. That's like, again, he's not showing up like as Jason Tatum honoring Kobe Bryant. He's showing up in Kobe Bryant cosplay. It's just really weird. And like at first a lot of people were like praising it. Like, oh man, you know, he just got the spirit of Kobe coursing through his veins.

for this finals, but eventually it just became like really kind of creepy. I'm glad you guys agree. All right. Last one, factor fiction kind of related or at least an entry point into talking about Tatum a little bit more. Actually, it'd be nice if the Celtics had a primary ball handler. I keep hearing over and over again about like how complete they are as a starting five and like what it unlocks as a switchable defense and like how good the ball movement is with Derek White and yada, yada, yada. And yet every single series, pretty much. much like every other game at this point, we hear about the turnovers, 18 turnovers in game two, Adoka, pinpointed it yet again as the source of like the most consternation and the biggest

thing that they needed to clean up. And I often find myself wondering like, yes, the move to have everybody do a little has like definitely taken the Celtics up a notch. But I do wonder if it would be great to just like turn the ball over to somebody who doesn't turn the ball over. Like, And I just don't know if they're going to be able to, like, actually fix this in time for, like, the end of the finals. Do you think this was their problem, though, in game two? Because I don't remember a ton of those turnovers that came from a failure to organize. You know, it was like, this guy trying to do too much,

this person being in the wrong spot, and maybe a point guard or a proper ball handler solves all that stuff. But other than I remember one possession early in the fourth quarter where Al Horford decided to bring the ball up and got. ripped by Namanya B. Elits said half court. Other than that, I don't remember a ton that's like, oh, they really need a ball handler in this situation.

Yeah, and for the most part, the ball is in the hands of the right people. And it's not like Jason Tatum isn't getting the good spots or Jalen Brown isn't getting the good spots. It's like Rob said, it's like these dudes are throwing skip passes to dudes who aren't freaking open. You know,

it's not that they're not getting, they're getting into stuff pretty much every single possession. It's just, I don't think they're maximizing what it is their advantages are. So I'm not going to go too crazy about that. But again, like somebody like me, yeah, I always feel more comfortable when there's a guy like a Chris Paul, like a Kyle Lowry, organizing every single possession because I know I'm going to get something out of it. But I don't think the wings are doing that awful of a job, especially, like I said, there are advantages to be pressed when Steph's guarding you, when Jordan Poole's

guarding you, when Clay's guarding you, when Iggy's guarding you. And so, you know, if that's your starting point where, like, the guy with the ball in his hands can pretty, like, it's feasible that he's going to create an advantage. It's not like clay, for instance, creating or something like that. Like, I'm not mad at what they've done. But, you know, again, to your point, Justin, I always would like to see a goddamn point guard in there. Well, we did talk about, like, if not for the aberrational fourth quarter, would we be looking at in game one? we'd be looking at Steph's performance and talking about just how dominant he's been.

I think you could look at the aberrational third quarter in game two for the Celtics and say, you take this like 14 point blip out. I think Boston's offense has been really good by and by and large in the series. Like they've gotten to the looks that they wanted to get to. They just, they've missed layups, they've missed some open threes.

Like I process wise, I think their offense has been really good. What's going on with the third quarter thing? Like obviously the warriors are historically awesome in the third quarter dating back to 2014-15. But it doesn't really make much sense for the Celtics, a team that's ostensibly well-coached to be worse coming out of halftime. And I don't really understand that.

Like, can you guys? I think the Warriors have been a third-quarter team for seven years now. Right? Like, this is just obviously something, like, this isn't some blip on the radar. Like, it's not aberrational. Like they have been blitzing people in the third quarter since 1415. Like, this is what they do. I think most teams, when the game is relatively close, coming out of halftime,

don't feel a sense of urgency. And the Warriors do. Like, I just think that's the difference. Like, it's like, all right, man, it's a three-point game, you know. We're going to get into our stuff. It's going to be fine and whatever. Whereas the Warriors is like, no, this is where we win. This is where we, this is the time of game where we actually put.

folks away and win the game. And that's a mentality thing to me more so than like something as like ephemeral was like, oh, did they adjust at halftime? It's like, I don't know. Do you need to adjust at halftime with Steph Curry's splashing threes on your headtop for like, you know, the first 15 minutes of a game? I don't know. I do think, though, with the Warriors, they're the kind of team where if they go back

there at halftime and their coaches show them like one tiny weakness. on film, that weakness is 12 points. You know, like that is, you just work it over and over, and they're, like, Steph is so dangerous and so explosive. They can take those, like, minor adjustments and make huge gains out of it. I do think that's a factor. And the mentality of knowing you can do that is a factor in that, too. Yeah.

Tim Bontem said a good piece on ESPN about this the other day, just like how this has been a consistent issue for the Celtics throughout the playoffs. And it's just like, it's really weird. It's one of those things that you can't really put your finger on, but I think it speaks to like the turnover's things where it's like, you know, like, Rob, you bring up the good point. Like the margin for error for trying to beat the Warriors is just so slim. And to have these sorts of issues that are essentially like correctable.

Yeah. That are kind of dumb mistakes that you're beating yourself or like that just makes it that much tougher. All right. We're a little press for time here. So we're just going to limit this to one item on the coaching hot stove agenda and maybe we'll get to the rest of them down the road. Unfortunately for you guys, we're not going to talk about Darwin Ham. But, like, just briefly, if we're talking about things, they're just, like, really fucking weird.

But Ham talking about Russell Westbrook while Russell Westbrook just, like, loomed in the background almost to make sure he didn't say anything mean about him is one of my favorite unintentional comedy moments of the past couple weeks. Anyway, so Quinn Snyder resigns in Utah and a lot's going down as a result of that. Let's take the Snyder news first. Rob, are you surprised? that Snyder is stepping away after eight seasons in Utah. No, but some of the mechanics of this stuff is kind of odd. Like, I can't remember the last time an outgoing coach did a press conference with the front office and ownership as he was leading. Like, I get that they want to signal that this is an amicable split.

I get that there's kind of value in that for all involved. But what is happening here? I think, honestly, I want to give a shout out to Brad Stevens. for last summer coming out and being like, it's a rap. This group and me are done. We did everything that we can with this group. Like my voice, they're tired of it.

I'm tired of them. Like, I love these guys, but the working thing is, we're just, we're done. We've reached the end of the road here. You know, at a certain point, how many times are we going to do the same thing over and over again? say the same things, practice the same things, lose the same ways. Before, it's this time for somebody to recognize that it's a rap.

And shouts to Brad Stevenson for doing it last summer and hiring IMEUDoka. And now shouts to Quinn Snyder. He's like, look, I'm going to get another good NBA job when I want one. I've done everything I can with this group. I love these guys, but I'm sick of you people. Let me go hang out with my family

and I'll go do something else, have a fresh start somewhere else. I think this is a beautiful case of, you know, sort of sports self-awareness here, which is, you know, it's not a thing that we get in abundance in sports, but like, Quistina's like, yo, we did it, man. It's over. I'm done. See you later.

Sianara, suckers. All I'm hearing, was, is you talk about people getting tired of his voice, of, you know, saying the same things over and over. And I'm hearing a scathing indictment of this podcast. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to be with you guys forever. Don't worry. That was slightly ominous.

I read the press conference, Rob, as I need a fucking vacation, but I want you guys to still pay me for it. I mean, it's like, this is an amical break up. Right, yeah. It's like, I want to go away for a while. Neither of us is really happy, but I still want my money. And honestly, it's a pretty good gig if you can get it. But yeah, it is pretty weird.

I don't think you see that as often. I guess like Daryl Morey would be another recent example, but we learned how long that worked out for him to be on vacation and spending time with his family. And for the record, I don't think it's the wrong decision for the jazz in terms of looking for that new voice, moving in a different direction.

Like how involved Donovan Mitchell wants to be and who decides that new direction, I think, will be interesting. What role Rudy Gober has and whatever that new direction looks like will be interesting. But the jazz don't have a lot of capacity to pivot unless they want to make dramatic changes. Like we've already seen a lot of different, slightly different versions of what the Mitchell-Gaer tandem

surrounded by various role-player combinations looks like. Now we see how committed the jazz are to making something that is substantively different than that. Okay, so this brings us to our next part. So almost as immediately as Snyder snapped down, or at least we got the news from Woj, we get the follow-up, which is that Mitchell is, in quotes, unsettled, unnerved, and wondering what it means for the franchise's future.

And this kind of sent us down a pretty windy road where you're wondering, well, is Mitchell next out the door? Did he have such a tight relationship with Snyder? Or does this signal such a sea change that he's wondering, like, maybe I need to get the fuck out of here? Or as our friend Andy Larson from the Salt Lake Tribune mentioned, is this just, woges slash Mitchell's way of getting Donovan more influence on the coaching hire.

Larson phrased this specifically as CAA rep Donovan had CAA rep Wodge, or at least that he is surprised and disappointed about Quinn's departure so that CAA rep Johnny Bryant can get the job. Johnny Bryant is a New York Knicks assistant coach.

And so I'm kind of like all over the place here. Rob, what's kind of like top line takeaway from this giant stew of mess? These guys are so good at this, at this point. Like there's such a wide swath of people who are interested in sports, but aren't seeing the Andy Larson level commentary on what is happening here, that we'll just see, oh my God, Donovan Mitchell is so upset.

So unnerved by the coach that everyone had suspected might be out after the season, being out after this season. It just, it really does set up Mitchell to be shown in a good light no matter what happens. Either he's the guy who stayed and he gets to have input or he's the guy who was unnerved and gets to leave.

Like, no matter what happens, Donovan Mitchell gets what he wants when you can frame it in these kinds of terms. I might be a little rusty on my Shakespeare, but is the line Doth protest too much? Is that Shakespeare or is that... Mm-hmm.

Nicky Minaj or something. Listen, I just don't... Anybody but half a brain who follows this knows that Donovan Mitchell is not long for that damn franchise. Period. Nobody expects that Donovan Mitchell is going to finish out his career

in Utah, much less the duration of the current contract that he's on. So all of those times with Mitchell and his camp are signaling, not happy in Utah, don't want to be here, we love to do something else, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Quinn Snyder was sitting there the whole time. Where was this Quinn Snyder gravitational pull. We're like, oh, I'm so tied at the hip to Quinn Snyder. Where was all this shit when he's dropping the rumors about wanting to get the fuck out of there?

It didn't exist. So now I'm supposed to believe Clint Snyder leaves. And it's like, oh, I just can't bear to be a Utah Jazz anymore because of the loss of my beloved coach. It's absurd, y'all. It's absurd.

And the bottom line is nobody believes that there's no other coach that this guy would want to play for. And if you wanted to be there very long term, influence the coaching hire. Go ahead. Pick your coach. Tell him, I'm going to be here long term. I want to be involved with the decision.

Let's make me a part of the process. I'm jazz for life. I'm getting a tatted on my forehead. I'm going to join the Mormon church. Let's go. Let's ride. They ain't doing all of that. This is all, this is like Rob said, these guys are so expert at crafting this propaganda.

It's comical at this point. So what happens now then? because if you were to choose between Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell, which it seems like is inevitable at this point. They're probably going to have to pick one or the other, if only because, like, Gobert is probably the only way to get something back and return to kind of like mix up the pieces and try something a little bit different

around Donovan, if that is their choice. But it seems like Mitchell's the one who doesn't want to stay their long term or at the very least might have his eye on other France. franchises or like I think he would be the more coveted asset of the two. And so they're kind of like backing into a no win situation. I wonder if this gets pretty messy pretty quickly. Yeah, with the guy like Donovan Mitchell, it's not like there's a lot of room to play in such a different way that would be accommodating to him and make him want to stay. Like he already has the ball in his hands a lot. He already runs a lot of high pick and roll. He drives a lot of the action. I mean, I guess you could argue you could play him as your full time point guard. I know we've had that conversation before as far as if that's kind of. of the optimal future for his career. Maybe that's something he wants or maybe it is. And I honestly don't know.

But as far as what they have now, like Donovan Mitchell is a player who creates restrictions for your team. Like he is who he is defensively. He needs a certain amount of help unless you just want to punt on defense and trade Rudy Gobert and like go in like more of an offense first direction. And he's not a playmaker. There's that whole, that whole can of worms too.

But like so you do kind of need these supplementary structures around him one way or the other. whether they're Rudy Gobert or Mike Conley or, you know, the erstwhile Joe Ingalls or whoever it is, like you need these guys who are going to do the things that he isn't going to do. And how you find them with the resources that they have at present, with where their salary situation is, much easier said than done. I think one of my questions is,

is a team like the Knicks or one of these other teams rumored to be interested in Mitchell actually going to, like, give up the bag in order to go and get him? Like, are they going to pay? the premium, it's likely going to take to get a player four years under contract and $135 million left. He has a player option in the last year and actually provide him that off ramp. I don't know. Like, if you're the Knicks, especially considering the history they have of making pretty mediocre decisions at best when it comes to like trying to procure like stars and like ending up with B level guys, like the history isn't great. And so I do wonder if like that would just

put them in an issue that they've been in before. And so in that case, like, is this headed for a stalemate? Like, I don't know, why. Do you see a team that could, like, really need Mitchell, or at the very least, like, Mitchell becomes, like, the franchise in the way that, like, some of these other disgruntled stars have been? I don't think so this summer because all indications right now, and maybe this is a bluff on the part of age in them,

is that they don't want to part with the dude. So basically that means somebody's going to have to blow them away with an offer, which doesn't feel forthcoming at this juncture. So I think he's in all likelihood they're going to play out the string again this season, probably just end up moving Rudy. And then we're going to actually get into like the actual Mitchell sweepstakes next summer. Because the jazz are just putting out like they're just putting out like, yo, we're not, we really want to stay with this. guy. We want to stay on it. We think we could fix it. We think we could prove that this is ultimately the place that he wants to be. So outside of a great piece or somebody coming in and being like, yo, we'll give you super high lottery and a bunch of future stuff. Like, it just doesn't seem like

the Donovan trade is there to be made right now because Utah thinks that, you know, with the amount of years left on his deal. And again, you can see it from the posture that Mitchell and his camp are taking. They're not coming back and be like, we hate it here, get us out of here. It's like, oh, Quinn Snyder. Damn, we loved them. They're not taking the aggressive posture

or tact, you know, as far as trying to be moved. So Utah doesn't want to move them. Donovan Mitchell doesn't seem to yet have the stomach to aggressively make them move him. So I don't think any of these things are going to come to fruition this summer.

I think we could, I think we could stand to be unnerved more often on this podcast. Can we work toward a more unnerved energy? I see another Kobe post, man. I tell you. I just want to listen to Waz do NBA players as Shakespearean theater a little bit more. NBA players as Shakespearean theater as Nikki Minaj was the full, the full sequence there. That's our ticket to the top, baby.

All right. We'll be back next week, same time, same place. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely in production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. also on production. We'll see you again.