The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Features (Ep. 119)

Episode Date: May 31, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan brings on a roundtable of Ringer writers to discuss the stories they've been working on leading up to the NBA Finals. First, Jonathan Tjarks gives his thoughts on Kevin Durant's under-the-radar role (5:00). Then, Kevin O'Connor discusses the importance of isolation scoring (11:10). Finally, John Gonzalez gives his thoughts on the culture of the Warriors and the Cavaliers (20:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. This is a special edition. My name is Chris Ryan, not Chris Vernon, although we both are very energetic people named Chris. I am one of the editors over at the Ringer.com, and we've been working really hard. These last few weeks over the playoffs and leading up into the finals, so we wanted to do a little bit of a special pot

where we had some of our writers come on, talk a little bit about some of the pieces they have this week going into the three match, the last part of the trilogy. Although, you know, if you told me we'd be back here next year with the Warriors and Cavs, I don't definitely believe you. Today we have Jonathan Charks, who's going to talk to us a little bit about Kevin Durant and some of the matchups in this finals. We have Kevin O'Connor, who's going to talk about the importance of isolation plays. And we've got John Gonzalez, who did a cool feature on Kyrie Irving off the court and some of his more eccentric and unique personality characteristics to say it, not to put fine a spin on it.

Although Kyrie would put pretty fine spin on it when he drives the lane. that was pretty silly. I want to say thanks to all the writers for all their hard work over the last couple of months with the playoffs and of course with the finals. You know, it's interesting. With the third one, it can feel like you're writing about the same people

and the same teams over and over and over again. And I think that these guys have done a great job finding new ways to kind of look at it. And part of that is Kevin Durant helps. So thanks, Kevin Durant. So without further ado, let's just get right into it and talk to Jonathan Charks about Kevin Durant.

So now I'm joined by the ringers Jonathan Charks, who's going to talk to me a little bit about his piece on Kevin Durant. I was kind of thinking about this. Because the Cavs and the Warriors have played now three times in a row, or are going to play three times in a row of the finals, there's a flattening of the story that happens a little bit where you just, I don't think I've actually really got my head around the fact that Kevin Durant is going to be in this finals. And that, like you said, in your piece, he's actually had his best season as a pro this

year. Yeah, I mean, he's been great this year. Just kind of, if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would have had a pretty good case to be MVP, I think. Seriously? I mean, I thought he was, I think he's probably him, LeBron, and Quire, three best players in the league. He's the best player on the best team. Why not? Yeah, I mean, that makes, when you say it like that, it makes a lot of sense. It makes, it kind of also throws into, you know, you think about how we think about MVP every year as this, like, narrative award rather than, like, what is actual value or who's the best player. I think, John, the most striking part of the piece that you hit on is this idea that if the Cavs want to play LeBron, Tristan, and Kevin Love at the same time, one of them is going

to have to guard either Durant Curry or Clay Thompson. Is there any scenario in which that happens, but you could still see the Cavaliers winning? See, I think the problem is if LeBron has to guard Durant, how is he going to have the energy to carry the offense? That to me is a big question. Like, how many steroids can LeBron take in the next two weeks. He'll have to play like 45 minutes. To me, they'll probably have to take love off the floor a lot just to give LeBron some breathing room. Do you think that will affect the Cavaliers on offense too much if they have love off the floor? He has been pretty solid over these playoffs. He's been stroking from three. Like they've been running him off screens. He's been,

they need his offense. It's a really tough balance to have to figure out. I think they're going to have to get Jefferson to play awesome. J.R. Smith's got to play awesome. It's just it's going to be, they've got to find minutes for love or he's not going to kill them on defense. That might be the biggest challenge to Ron Lou faces is like, how can I find 20 minutes where Kevin Love is a net positive on defense? I can give them the ball, have him crash the glass. A lot of it, too, is they've got to have Love and Thompson dominating the boards in this series. There is, I think that I wonder whether or not we'll see what, you know,

Boston did this a lot where they were running, like, guards were like boxing out Tristan and they were just like throwing two bodies at Tristan and letting and letting like, to try and get after more on the glass. I wonder if the Warriors will try and do some different stuff. But Tristan, because he really was such a huge factor in the finals last year. Yeah, I think you have to face guard him. I mean, if you go back and look at the regular season games this year,

the Warriors didn't go small at all in that second game. I think because Tristan scared them so much than that first one. He was, they had, Cavs had 18 offensive boards in that Christmas Day game. And that was because Tristan could not be boxed out. To me, like, it's almost like Rodman rules. I'm too young to really have watched. Rodman in his prime. I think he was a better rebound on Tristan, but probably not that high

in impact, but Tristan's probably the best rebound on the NBA now, I think. I think you're probably right. But it's weird. It's like I wanted to talk to you about Kevin Durant, and we already have drifted away from it. There's something about Durant's presence on the Warriors this year that has been a little bit, I mean, partially because he missed the time, partially because I think that they've had such an easy go of it in the playoffs. But I feel like we just aren't talking about it enough. And there's, is it that you think we don't have like the data of him in the finals yet, or is it just that like he is so seamlessly sort of fit in with what the Warriors do? Because you talk a lot about how like a lot of what

Kevin Durant wanted, which was to get easier baskets to play within a system that shared the ball, to have a little bit more of an even distribution of scorers on his team, whereas on, on Oklahoma he was always surrounded with Russ and then a bunch of defensive specialists. Is that why we're not like marveling at what the Warriors are as much or what Durant has done this season? I think you hit on it, like, with the playoffs being so easy. Because, like, we remember players from the playoffs and, like, I just, like, get their kind of brain on their team. But they've had no real memorable playoff moments.

Like, the most memorable thing that's happened for Golden State is Zaza injuring Kauai in these playoffs. So, like, there's just been no time for, like, the public to catch up with that. But I think in the finals, it'll happen really fast. Everyone's going to be like, oh, my gosh, Durrance on the Warriors. This is unbelievable. But, like, because, like, how many people really watched those Spurs games at the end? They were almost on watching.

No, I think after the second game, people kind of tuned out and then they became basically, I mean, even by three, Pop was kind of like, yeah, you know. Yeah, he was just, you know, running for the offseason. Yeah, so I wonder whether or not, you know, does it dampen? I mean, there was a Jerry West quote that's been in, and then Lee Jenkins's piece on SI about super teams and he obviously was an instrumental figure in bringing Durant to Golden State. But at the same time, he was like, I'm not really interested in parity per se, but I don't know if lack of competition. competition is good. And he was talking about how it even has an effect on the Warriors' own fans, where it's just not a lot of, the lack of tension in the games kind of dampens the crowd. And is there anything as we get to the finals and it becomes like this referendum on the

league and how teams are built right now? Is there anything in that regard that you think is weighing on this finals? Like, does this finals need to prove anything about the competitive spirit of the league? I mean to us maybe, not to the Warriors or the Cavs, I mean, as fans and analysts and observers, I think also for the Golden State, you want to see them get pushed a little bit. So like go back to that game one game against the Spurs. Like I thought they made a lot of lazy rotations. Like Mike Brown was kind of just playing his guys.

He had a bunch of nonchewishers and the four at the same time. They were very optimal rotations. But what did it matter? Because they had been killing to him so much. And then Kauai gets hurt. So they haven't really been pushed at all in this playoffs. So I wonder if some of like the lazier things Golden State does catches up to them earlier in these finals just because they've gotten away. They've been able to get away with like not playing like max basketball by going like 80% this whole time.

Right. So like I'm really excited to see them go 100%. And we'll see how quickly they can do that. One of the things that when they have one of the only like road bumps that they had this season, I think was earlier in the year when there was a little bit of a reliance on on Durant as a. you know, as an individual score, maybe not as much of a ball stopper, but, like, you know, that was sort of what in Oklahoma, he would get the ball on the wing,

or he would get the ball coming out of screen and kind of have eight to ten seconds of the ball to himself to try and make something happen. And then Draymond felt like Golden State was kind of relying on that at a certain point. I think they had some sort of, like, talk about it. And they've obviously, in the playoffs, like, have looked like Golden State but with Kevin Durant.

Do you think that there's any, like, concern troll way in which like relying on Durant to get buckets could somehow gum up the works in the finals or do you feel like that they are just playing too good right now to trip up at this point? I mean, I guess I went back and watched those two record season games from the Rourke I wrote earlier this week. And you definitely watch that Christmas Day game or Durant and that fourth quarter of his holds the ball and shoots like 15 times.

Yeah. And that's probably not ideal with talent around him. Like to me, I think long term, I want to use Durant in the LeBron rule and Steph and the Kai re-roll. Interesting. Like I want to get Steph to just score all the time and pass and have Durant do everything else.

Because I think Durant, he's an incredible score, but at seven feet tall, just the ability to use the plug gaps I think is more interesting as having him get buckets because Steph gets buckets to whenever he wants. Yeah, and then you also have spot-up shooters like Clay and then you have guys like who can get weird buckets like Livingston.

There's just no deficiencies. It's just so hard for me to imagine the Cavs winning more than two games here. but I think what everybody wants to hear is what's your prediction for the series? I think to me, I'm saying Warriors in six, but that's because I'm not sure they've optimized their rotations. Like the weakness on that team is West, Petulia McGee.

How much are they going to play their fives? Right. Like if they just say, all right, forget it, let's go small all the time. I'm not sure how Cleveland can keep up. But they're playing Zaza a lot early and West's a lot early. I think there's some room for Cleveland

to attack those guys early in the series. Yeah, I mean, the issue there is I just feel like no lead is safe. For me, Cleveland, it should almost be, you know, I know that they've played so well this year and that their outside shooting has been so good. But I almost feel like the recipe would be to make it a little bit more like the first finals where they slow it down and keep it close and turn it into more of a coin toss with LeBron down the stretch. But, you know, that might not ultimately be work.

I would just feel like if they ever got out to like a 17-point lead on the Warriors, they would not be able to feel safe about that. No, I mean, that's the thing about both teams. They can both shoot so well, and they have something good playmakers. They can score quickly. But I think you're right, controlling tempo is huge for Cleveland. I say the higher the score total is, I think the better chance Golden State's going to win. To me, if I'm Cleveland, I want to get like 100-3-100, not like 110, 107.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. All right, John, thanks so much. You can read John's Kevin Durant article on The Ringer as well as his article about the matchups. Based on the two regular season meetings between these teams, we can't wait for the finals. John, thanks for calling him in. Yeah, thanks for having me on. All right, so now I'm joined by the ringers Kevin O'Connor. Kevin is my dude.

He's one of the best basketball writers out there right now. And Kevin's piece about the finals focused on the idea of isolation plays, which I think have we think of this period in basketball, is this pace and space, his ball movement, Popovich fixed it. He solved basketball. And ever since then, everybody's just doing dribble handoffs and making smart cuts and spacing the floor perfectly. but as you really go into detail in your piece about,

sometimes it just comes down to a guy on the wing versus another guy, right? And this finals could come down to that. 100% right, Chris. All the stuff poppavits solve matters. Like, dribble handoff, side to side, passing, motion offense. That is integral to success in the day of NBA. However, sometimes at the end of game, you look at the numbers that I have in the article,

you know, for LeBron and Kyrie and Steph Carrey, and Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, all those guys have a significant uptick in one-on-one isolation possessions at the end of the game. And that's what it comes down to oftentimes at the end. And when you think about some of those big moments in the past, whether it's Jordan in the 90s or Kobe in the mid-2000s or even just in last year's finals with Kyrie Irving hitting the shot,

those are one-on-one isolation players because that's what it comes down to. Sometimes that's your best available shot. But maybe when we were talking about this, And I was thinking about this, you know, and in our conversations about this piece leading up to it, is that it's not a binary, right? Like, I think sometimes people think of it, like, there's either ball movement or there's isolation. But there's a bleed over, right? Because one of the things that we were going to be talking about a lot as this series goes on

is this idea of hunting for the matchups that you want, right? And getting Steph in a matchup that you want or getting Kevin Love out on the perimeter where he may not feel as comfortable, although Steph Curry would beg to do. differ. Can you talk a little bit about how, you know, teams are going to search for those matchups that they want? I think that's how it's changed. So, you know, in the past, maybe you have an inbound play and, like, you just passing in a Paul Pierce or Kobe and they stand at the top of the key for 18 seconds, you know, winding down the clock until they get their shot. But now there's motion before the ISO. Like, you might set a little flip screen to try to force a switch.

So the thing to really watch for in the finals is, will the Warriors start setting pick and rolls with Curry and Durant? Will they start trying to get whoever's on Durant onto Steph? Well, they try to get whoever's on the Curry onto Durant, try to get the best available matchup possible. It's really about, I think, finding your advantage. Because at the end of the game, that side-to-side motion offense doesn't work quite as well when the defense is locked in, which is why a lot of teams have to turn to those isolations. but it's not like they're just standing around. There's still motion occurring.

I think, if anything, it's kind of a hybrid in the sense that you're looking for the appropriate matchup, you know, and then going with your isolation set. And that's what we've seen in the past. Even this Kyrie Irving shot last year. Thompson started on him, I believe, on that play. Yeah. And then they did a little slip, and Curry went on to him to get the slightly better matchup. You can see in that play from Game 7 where they get that switch.

can see, this is in, it's, it could be reading a little bit too much into his body language, but you can see Clay's shoulders sink a little bit when they get the switch because he tried to fight through the Tristan Thompson screen to stay on Kyrie. And as soon as the switch happens and Steph takes Kyrie, Steph didn't do a bad job of guarding him. But as soon as the switch happened, you can see Clay kind of just be like, damn it. You know, like these guys understand what's at stake in each one of these possessions. It's fascinating. They know I'm a better defender than my teammate, or I think I can get this guy off the dribble here.

It'll be so interesting to see. I mean, when the chips are down, and that, okay, so, you know, one of the things that I think was interesting about the Kyrie shot is that a lot of the times with isolations, we try, we think about it in terms of getting to the hoop, right? But with these guys, we're talking about guys who might want to just get an inch so that they can get a three off. That's another way it's evolved, I think, right? I would say, you know, in the past, you might try to get that spot mid-range, but now guys are just pulling up. I thought Kevin Pelton from ESPN wrote an interesting piece on how Curry's, the most important shot for Stephen Curry is to pull up three. And that applies to a lot of guys, too. I mean, we saw that carrie.

I mean, LeBron is taking fewer mid-range jumpers now. He's taking almost all three's layups and getting to the free-sill line. So that's been an interesting development as well. And look, I mean, I think one of the, someone commented, and I forget who it was, but, they basically said, well, what about the efficiency of these plays? And it's not that the isolation is still the most efficient play. It's just sometimes at that time of the game, that is absolutely the best option when nothing else is available.

Because defenses really lock in at the end of games, especially in the fourth quarter, not just in the playoffs, but in the regular season, too. I would expect, because of the familiarity of these two teams in this situation, so this is the third time they're playing in the finals, obviously. that these guys understand the littlest thing could swing a series. Not only, I'm not just talking about Draymond, you know, kicking out. I'm talking about, you know, a missed switch or a switch that's not as advantageous to your team as possible. A missed shot, a missed dribble, a misplayed pass.

These guys know that like an entire legacy can hinge on this. So I think you're going to see when people talk about, oh, defense is tightened up. We have no idea, man. I think people are really, really going to lock in. I guess the best way to end this, Kevin, is there's 24, so there's 22 seconds left in the game, and your team is down by two. Who do you want to have the ball in his hands?

There's a lot of good players that choose from, Chris. You know what? I think I kind of agree with what some of a Kyrie's teammate said that he's the best one-on-one player in the world. So I think if I'm picking one guy to score Kyrie Irving. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a hard choice. That's a hard choice. Yeah, it's not an obvious one.

You know, I think that you could make the argument that if you have to get one shot off from somewhere on the court, the best person to do that is to rant just because of his physical makeup allows him to get clean looks almost whenever he wants it. You know what I mean? If he can just do one faint, he can get a three off. If he can get to the hoop, he can play in the post, he can do all these different things. But if you're going for the basket, even though he's, you know, he's, you know, he can get to the hoop. he's probably one of the smaller guys out there. Kyrie can just, like, find an angle no matter what.

And it's probably the best part of his game. Kevin, I don't even know if we were, you know, this is just for fun. But I guess what's your prediction for the final? Like, what do you think is going to happen? So I think it's going to be, I think it'll definitely go six or seven games. I just, I don't see how this only goes four or five. You think that two years ago, LeBron brought the caps to six all by himself. and I think this goes seven

and I mean I don't know if this is a final prediction but right now I'm leaning cavaliers and seven just because I think they have the best player in the world and LeBron's playing at a level I don't think we've ever seen him play before and I just I feel like with the isolation edge they have at the end of games

in my opinion I feel like if these games are close they have a slight edge I don't have total confidence that pick because I honestly don't see how anybody could have confidence in their pick because this series has so much firepower. I think it's so evenly matched in the sense with the star players.

So I'm going with Cavend 7 right now, but I can easily see that flipping before Thursday night. I have Warriors in 5 just because I think, I don't, I feel like we're kind of right. The universe is ripe for a dull sporting event. And I just feel like there's something about the way that Warriors are exercising. right now that makes me feel like, you know, they'll take the first two at home,

Cavs will get one, and then the Warriors win the next two. But I really would love a seven game series. I mean, this is for us, this is the Super Bowl time seven. So I'd love to get as much basketball as possible. Kevin, you're going to be at the game, so you'll be writing from Oakland for the first two games. So people should look for that on the ringer on Friday morning and Monday morning. And we'll have you out here in L.A. doing some stuff. So you'll be around a lot.

Thank you so much for joining us. You can read Kevin's piece on isolation plays. It's a great piece on the ringer.com right now. Appreciate it, Chris. No matter what happens, I'm looking forward to seeing what the conversation's like afterwards. Yeah, definitely. All right, man. Thank you so much for calling in.

Have a great flight. Thanks, Chris. Talk to you soon. Okay, now I am joined by John Gonzalez. John's been writing a bunch of really cool features for us over the last couple of months. John Wood was like March. Did you write about Mike Brown, I guess? It's hard to remember.

You guys have had me on the road for a while. They all sort of bleed together. I think so. Somewhere in that neighborhood. Somewhere whenever. Yeah. Whenever Kerr stepped down for a while, I guess it was April. Yeah.

John wrote about Mike Brown and taking over the Warriors in the interim, but is now looking increasingly like he's going to be coaching them throughout the finals. And then this week and last week, John wrote about the Cavaliers twice. He wrote about Richard Jefferson and Channing Fry's podcast Road Tripping. And then this week today, he wrote about Kyrie Irving. And his sort of unique off-court persona, which we don't often get to see unless you're really digging deep and like you're really on the boards you know what I mean you're really getting deep in the message board so John I wanted to ask you with this unique experience of being around both of these

teams in recent recent months how would you characterize the different vibes like what's the biggest difference between these two teams I think I was surprised and maybe it had to do with you know dealing with Richard Jefferson and and channing fry and alley cleft into the pod story but I think I surprised, Chris, that, like, the cabs feel like they're having fun. They're sort of amused by this whole process. You know, Kevin Lovett said he was surprised that they're considered the underdogs when they're the defending champions. And the Warriors felt like it was much more of a business.

With the exception of Mike Brown, who's having a black. And, you know, that was the upshot of our story that, my God, like, if anybody has a better job than Mike Brown, who is it? But on the whole, it feels like the Warriors are about business. And the cabs seem to be enjoying themselves, which I guess, I was sort of surprised by. Which is strange too, because you kind of consider the Cavs a little bit more of a veteran team, whereas the Warriors still have like an air of youth to them.

But to me, the Warriors are kind of hitting the, I don't know, like the awkward puberty stage of being a team, where guys are obviously, you know, I mean, there's a lot of egos on that team. There's a lot of different agendas and a lot of different brands at work on that team. We always joke about the Under Armour Nike stuff, but there has to be something to say, some extent that's real. And then on the Cavs, it seems like they've got a little bit more of everybody knows their role, everybody knows their lane kind of thing. Do you think that it's the fact that the Cavs kind of already did the impossible, that it frees them up to feel a little bit more like, yeah, whatever comes after this is gravy? Yeah, I think that's part of it. I mean,

that was a big deal last year. Like, you know, when I was in Cleveland, every time I talked to somebody, it was, oh my God, no, and you believe we did it. It's a year later. And so I think that, like, you know, doing the impossible. And for how long was that job? It was over 50 years, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a big, I mean, like you're like me from Philadelphia. We went 25 years without a championship. Can you imagine going 50? I mean, like, I would make people insane. So it's really for Cleveland, I think. Yeah, I would just start freelancing for teams if we went 50 years. I got to know, I'm not interested in a Bambino curse, man. Life's too short.

Yeah, it would be rough. I think that they'd have to raise all of going out here if it went that long. But for Cleveland, yeah, I think, like, they did it. It was amazing. They know that LeBron has his playoff blueprint that's going to push them into the finals all the time. And then, like, you see what happens. I mean, anything could happen in the finals. You know, somebody tweaks an ankle or, you know, last year, Draymond has to sit out.

All of a sudden, it could switch. Where with the Warriors, I think, like, again, with the exception of Mike Brown, there's more pressure there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Zach talked about on his podcast where he was like, look, man, if you have the best regular season run in league's, like three-year regular season run in league history, and you come out of that with one title,

that's bad. And then I think Arnavitz actually said to him, it was like, that's like, you know, 90s Braves right there. You can't do that. Yeah, you're totally catchy for that. I mean, like, especially you add, you're stacking your already super team with another superstar to make it even better, you got to win.

I mean, like, KD leaves when they almost beat Golden State last year to join Golden State if you lose now. I mean, that's huge, I go on your face. So, yeah, I think the gravy thing is right. And not so overplay this pot, think. This is your fault. You put me onto this pod. I love it so much.

I think it relaxes, though. Yeah. Yeah. You can tell that they are a very easygoing group of guys who are very comfortable with each other. which is, you know, it's an interesting juxtaposition from what I think we thought the first, the first year up through Blatt's firing, which was that this was like a very, it was a dictatorship with LeBron, that guys weren't comfortable, you know, being subservient to his sort of superstar. It's really interesting.

I want to talk a little bit about Kyrie specifically. He is one of the most disrespected, respected players I can remember watching. You know, like someone who's capable of putting a. up 40 plus in any given game of winning an NBA finals game with a shot. And yet we don't really talk about him in the same conversation as the other really upper echelon point guards. And even throughout the playoffs, people being like John Wall is the best point guard in the east.

Isaiah Thomas is an MVP candidate. And Kyrie just kind of putters along. And one thing that your piece got at was obviously his unique personality and some of his unique viewpoints on alien, the existence of aliens and the moon. landing, but you also sort of touched on this idea of him kind of being a sidekick and the extent how much longer you think he might want to play that role. What did you come away thinking? Yeah, I think it's, I mean, exactly what you said, because, you know, for those, for people who don't know, you're my editor, so, like, we're kicking this stuff around. We're trying to, like, what

story should we do and what do we think the ideas are? And initially, the idea that we had come up with to pullback the turn a little bit was exactly what you said. You look at Kyrie and you go, how, you know, like, can he be a thing without having, like, an oversized personality? Can he be his own thing with, you know, being in LeBron's shadow? And then when I got there and I got to talk to people around him and watch and operate, I realized it was sort of the opposite that he is this personality, but the LeBron component, the sidekick component sort of overshadows it. So, you know, he had drafted Dave McMannerman and flat out asked him after Game 4.

He had that monster game. He was like, hey, you know, have you thought about what it would be like to be the leader of this team in your promise? Like, I think about it all the time, which I was sport by because he really, rarely does that kind of stuff in press conferences in public. Let's he'll do that stuff on the podcast, but very rarely will he say something like that in public. So I think, you know, for him to say that right there after game four, after a huge performance, tells you how much he wants it. Yeah, I mean, we forget he was the next. number one pick. He was supposed to be the savior of that franchise, the second life after LeBron left. It was supposed to be about Kyrie. And his career has had one of the most,

like, interesting trajectories because it's just a series of sliding doors. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like if LeBron doesn't come back, you know, who knows if he even stays in Cleveland, but what does a Kyrie Irving led NBA team look like? And that's part of what Cleveland and Golden State has kind of screwed up our ideas about, you know, can this guy be the best player on a finals team because they have so many dudes who we once wondered that about. We used to debate that about Kevin Love when he was on Minnesota at his peak. You know, we'd be like, well, can you really win? How far can you go with Kevin Love?

And it turned out you could go about 40 games. You could win about 40 games to them. And we had the same questions about Kyrie. We would ask the same questions about Durant by himself. I mean, yeah, he got to the finals. but with obviously incredible talent around him, it sort of skews our whole way of understanding the league. Yeah, I thought about,

it's interesting that you bring this up now, and maybe it was something we should have explored in the piece, but it was already pretty long. I wondered that, like, as I'm watching, right? Because pre, the Kyrie that we saw pre-Lebron return and the Cavs that we saw were a totally different team. He was a different kind of player. He was, like, super-high usage rate,

even though he still is to a certain extent. and they weren't a good team. And then he comes, and he gets to play with LeBron, and I wonder, like, how much of that education? Like, if you extracted LeBron now, could the Cavs still be one of the best teams in the East? I would think about that all the time, and it's a really interesting hypothetical.

I don't know the answer to it. I think they'd be better. You think they'd be better than they were when he before LeBron got there. But if, like, LeBron had gone down with an injury this year, like, let's say he goes down in the 20th game with a knee injury, how good would they be? I would put them third

I would put them third in the east Not to disrespect everybody else But if that was the event And they had to learn how to play without LeBron But I still think that a Kyrie Irving Kevin Love team is pretty good So you're putting in that like wizard's Raptors tier Yeah and the Wizards and the Raptors are just also strange

Because like these kinds of hypotheticals are always hard Because you're just like well does that mean that like Kyle Lowry doesn't get hurt if this is still the case, but I just feel like the calves have a lot of scoring even without LeBron. It's a really tough question, though. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's about right.

I mean, like, LeBron makes such a huge difference to a defense that is already bad. So I think if you take him out, you take a big step back for so many different reasons, but the defense component would be the big one. But, yeah, I mean, I guess I wasn't a massive fan of Kyrie, LeBron's return, and I found myself increasingly, like, smitten with him, like, the more time I spend focused on him, not just, like, on the court and, like, what he can do, because that, I mean, that game four, if they lose that game, you know, we've spent a lot of time talking about game three, and then losing that game, and Mark is smart how to go bananas, and Jonas

Trebko had to be a thing. And nobody even, like, remember Jonas DeRebco was, like, a thing. But the big curiosity for me was how that game four started. because it looked like it was going to be a continuation of three and that the Celtics were going to tie up the series. And then all of a sudden people start getting super, super nervous in Cleveland. And also, LeBron started with those four fouls. Everything looked like it was going wrong, or at least sideways,

and Kyrie fixed that. I mean, that game was the Kyrie game that I think, you know, aside from him hitting that game winner in game seven, that's probably the best game he's ever had. Yeah. It was amazing. On a rolled ankle. And, you know, we talk about that.

It's not even, we're not even really like, ooh, like, what's the wrong with the Cavaliers? Do they have a good, no. It's like, well, another problem that would have happened is if they had lost that game, is the Warriors would have had just like a huge rest advantage. And that matters for the Cavs. LeBron just straight up is so much better when he has some rest. So for them to, if they had gone six or seven with Boston, I think it would have made a significant difference in the finals. So speaking of this, this third finals, John, let's just get your prediction,

winner and amount of games it's going to take. All right. So I say this with a caveat. I am the world. Like this side of Stephen A, I might be the world's worst prediction person. If I was any good at it, I would be, I stopped gambling a long time ago because I was offered sports long enough to know that I don't know anything about it. So I think it's probably, I'm going to go with the chalk here and say that it's the Warriors.

I would love for it to go seven. I think it's probably closer to six because if it's just talent and nothing goes wrong nobody turns an ankle and the Warriors are making shots and Tremont who, you know, in the regular season was having, you know, issues with his three. When I was there, he was knocking down threes. Then I think it's the Warriors and Six.

For the cast to win or to, you know, push it to seven, you need all those pieces. You need, like, what Kevin Love was doing when he was sitting seven threes and a half, and you need Kyrie to be the fantastic playoff, Kyrie that we've seen, you know, lately or last year.

A lot of things have to break right for the calves and I think fewer things have to break for the Warriors. What do you think? That's just what I keep coming back to is that the calves have to be extraordinary and the warriors just have to be themselves. Yeah. And it's just like the average Warriors game is

so good. There's just more variance to like what happens with the Cavs. So I don't know, man. I know that this is not, I hate being like this about LeBron, but I just think Warriors in five. I know. That's the thing. The LeBron component where you go, oh right, taking

the Warriors in any amount of things means you're betting against LeBron. You know? That's the thing that gives me pause. I don't feel good at it. Yeah, I don't either. But I am excited that there's finally going to be, I feel like we've gone forever without basketball.

What did this thing start it? Seriously. I know, it's been like the longest, it's been the longest three months of my life. It feels like, but it's also been the longest week of my life. All right, well, we're really excited to get going with the finals. Thanks, John for joining us. You can read John's piece on the ringer about Kyrie Irving,

his piece last week about road tripping is still up there and there's all sorts of other goodies under his byline. Just click on the name when you go to the site. John, thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you soon. Hi, man. Thanks for listening. You can read all the stuff from John, John, and Kevin.

You can just click on NBA Finals up there at the top of the Ringer website and you'll see all their pieces. We're really excited about the finals. You can read all those guys over the next, hopefully two weeks. You know, it might only be a week if some of these predictions come true. Thanks for listening and enjoy the finals.