The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Leftovers! | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck are back together to close out the NBA Finals, which saw the New York Knicks take the crown back to the Big Apple for the first time in 53 years. What did we learn about Jalen Brunson and building a team around small guards? Did Wemby become a villain throughout this playoff run? What parts of his game does he need to improve? Plus, the guys recount how they got Ben Stiller on the pod the night the Knicks won the title and get into the Real One of the Week! (00:00) - Intro(03:36) - Jalen Brunson and small guards(30:20) - Wemby discussion(58:38) - Mike Brown's coaching arc(1:06:48) - Real One of the Week Hit the mailbag: [e-mail]: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard BeckProducers: Victoria Valencia and Clifford AugustinThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Buy any two Ferrero Brands and you could win $1 million. Visit GoAllInAndWin.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck and Rajabelle in a few. Roger's return. We basically just asked the biggest questions about the finals and get them answered. What do we think? It's a big finals retrospective.

Last pod, we gave you the in the moment perspective. It was a little loopy. It was awesome. It was all those things. But now that we kind of have cooler heads, we want to bring Roger back into the fold. And kind of just like, just shoot this shit, man. We talk about the finals itself. We could get in a really animated discussion about Wimby and just his villain arc maybe.

And then talk about Mike Brown, talk about Darren Fox, just kind of regroup and just do a little level set. Went a little long this pod. It was a lot of fun though, man. It was great to see Roger back in the fall. It was great to have our brothers back. And it was fun, man. Without further ado, Cliff, Victoria, played the theme music. What's popping?

Real ones. Howard Beck over there. Our brother, our guy, our homie, our big, my big homie, Roger Bell is in the motherfucking house. What's up, man? Miss you. How you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good, man.

Good to be back off the road. Like, everything is good. There's a good couple weeks on the road with my son, Thai. The whole world has changed since we last saw you. The Knicks won the championship. Nothing's the same. Nothing's the same, man. My wife is as big a Knicks fan as there is.

So, yeah, I mean, like, it's a good time to be a New York native, a fan of the Knicks. I would imagine the tri-state area. Everybody kind of claims a little bit. So congratulations. What was that like for you, though, man? We're talking about Brentson. We've talked about Wemby throughout this postseason. But, like, what was your experience watching the finals, the last two games, the four and five while we were gone?

What was that like? What was the biggest things that stuck out for you? Yeah, shoot, I don't know. It was hard for me because, like, I was, I was in gyms, you know? So I wasn't getting, I was at the MBPA Top 100 camp, and then I was at Section 7 in Arizona. So, like, I wasn't always able to sit there and really watch a game the way I needed to watch a game. But, but, you know, in fairness, I can't break it down like that because I'd just be making shit up.

But what stuck out to me was just the resiliency overall of the Knicks squad. I do think I made a bit of a mistake with how Jalen was going to be able to figure out offensively how to be himself. You know, I thought that the Spurs had done such a great job on Shea and he never seemed to get a great beat on it. I thought Jalen would just quite frankly struggle a little bit. I still thought the Knicks would be okay, but I thought he would struggle. You know, I think the Spurs showed a lot of the things that we came into the playoffs worrying

about whether they would rear their head in terms of. inexperience and just lack of of, of, you know, depth of experience on that team from the top to bottom, I think showed up in ways that that cost them, you know, and that's to be expected. I thought, I think, quite frankly, the fact that it didn't show up more prevalently earlier in the playoffs is, is kind of remarkable. But I think, I think all of those things were kind of takeaways for me. And then the city, I mean, like, just the city was on fire. Like, that was out of control.

Yeah. What, it's so funny that, you know, the, the Jalen Brunson discussion has so many different elements that we can go to, right? He's the, out of all of the players that are, that he is compared to, the Lucas, the, the Anthony Edwards, you know, all the smaller guards. He's the first one to win a time. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that. that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer.

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just like small guards and can they get to it, right? And can you win with a small guard when, you know, and we know this about San Antonio, they were basically just blitzing Brunson any chance that they got, right? What do we learn about how a small guard can be successful in this league? And like, what did he show you just from that type of standpoint where, you know, they are blitzing him? And it seems to not matter down the stretch of games, right? Because that was the biggest thing, right? It was the Spurs won every quarter except for the fourth.

throughout this whole series. Like how did you, how did you see that going? Yeah, I've never been the small guard can't win. And people are going to immediately be like, oh, yes, you did,

but that's not what I, two small guards, you're not winning. One small guard, like one small guard, they've won. I mean, Isaiah Thomas won.

You know, like people, people, I'm just trying to think, Steph, uh, Tony Parker, like small,

you could have, no, small as relative, right? But like, it's not a problem. It's when you put two small guards out there that becomes that defensive, real defensive liability that I then I start to wonder whether you can get it done.

I think whenever you have your primary player being a smaller guard, you just have to get the recipe right around them. The roster has to be built in a way that can account for that and support that. And to a large degree, I think the Knicks as a collective were supporting Jay in a way that he needed to be supported when he was trying to work his way through figuring out the best way to attack what San Antonio was doing to him defensively until he got his feet under him and then just started saying, fuck it. Like here's what they're giving me. I'm going to go ahead and take that. And so for me, that's what it becomes, right? Like if your primary offensive threat

is going to be a relatively small guard that has some, and this isn't a jailing thing, this is just in general that is also not great defensively. You just have to get it right with the rest of that roster and the way you're built. And the Knicks did that. This episode of The Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferreiro. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferreiro.

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Go All In. Buy any two Ferreiro brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win.com. It's always funny to just see if I star players in general kind of work their way through the finals, right? And you've seen it, you know, particularly I saw it firsthand with Steph. You know, you've seen it, I'm sure, with Tony Lee Parker and other guys where they have to find

their way within a series because the finals are a different beast where this is the best scouting that you are going to get against your game, right? And that's why you always see like the first couple of games of a final, especially from a star player or a number one option, is always a feeling out process, right? You saw that with Brunson when he took 31 shots. And he finally kind of got his rhythm towards the end of the game. And, you know, game two, he was, you know, seven of 25, still won the game. But then you see him kind of figure his way through a series. Like, what's the scouting like during those types of environments?

And how do players kind of navigate their way through? Because he goes from, you know, the first game shooting 12 or 31 from the field. And in the final game, he scores damn near half their points. Right. So, like, how do you, how have you seen players like that kind of figure their way through series? Look, great, great players figure things out pretty quickly. Sometimes it's on the fly in the middle of a game. You know, sometimes it's from game to game.

You know, typically what happens is you're getting, you're getting these looks that they just confuse you confuse you like fractionally. We're talking about split seconds of decision making time that are the difference between whether you can execute something and get this clean look off or make. the past that's going to lead to a clean look or not. And if I can freeze your brain for that split second as a defensive scheme, I've won. I've done my job. And so sometimes it's as simple is going back to that film and a great player looking at it and realizing, yo, that's not exactly what I thought it was. Like, this is available to me over and over again. And if I just commit myself to doing this. And that would change from scheme to scheme, right?

Like I think you saw Jalen, especially late in the game, like there's a clip with his dad saying like, yo, just go. Because he could go. Like he could get by. But he was doing a lot of like not going at different parts of the series because of what he thought was going to be behind, right? Like when he'll do that to you? Like that that 7-6 like phantom is out there somewhere.

And if you can't really see him in your peripheral, you got to be afraid of him you know, come in and get in that shot. But then he just decided to just go at times. And sometimes it's as simple as just seeing the film and saying, oh, shit, I didn't see this in real time or I did, but I was a little, you know, I was kind of second guessing myself, but I'm just going to keep taking that and see if it bears fruit. And then they've got to adjust to it, right? But like, I want to be fair again, I didn't do a great breakdown of those last two games.

But that's what it felt like to me. It was like, he's going back and he's watching film. And he's realizing that, like, this isn't any thing that he's never seen before necessarily. He's just got to realize what's happening and how he can take advantage of that. And then just be committed to taking advantage of that. Yeah, I remember it was one theory that sticks out. I went to your point about, you know, players kind of taking the lid off of a shot blocker. And I'm thinking about, like, the 09, I think it was conference finals, Lakers Nuggets,

where Birdman was like the shot blocking Sabana. that time, right? And it was kind of like, and everybody said throughout that playoffs. And I remember Shannon Brown caught him on a fast break and just in his face, right? Just dunked all in his face. And that opened the floodgates for the rest of the team to just like not be as intimidated with Birdman as they once were. Like, you know, I think Lamarodham caught a potty during that, during that series as well. But what I'm saying, I'll let to say is like when you see your star player or a player kind of take it to a shot black, in a series like that who's intimidating,

it really opens it up for everyone else. And I thought you kind of saw that as the series progressed. It's like, you know, the Knicks stopped being scared of Wembe after a certain point in time, and they would just go whether they were blocked, getting blocked or not. And that's something that OKC just didn't do. They never kind of got to that point where they were like, okay, we're not scared of him anymore.

We don't even care if you get blocked. We know we're getting good shots and it's all good. So it was kind of great to just see that maturation through a series that you saw from New York. And they're a veteran team and there are a lot of more factors involved in that. But I want to go to Howard real quick.

Can I just say this out because I'm sorry, I feel bad, Howard. But I think you're right. Like the two players that did that and Anobie took him to the cup twice. Once he bodied him and dumped on him and once he just went by and said,

I'm not even fucking thinking about you. And Kat did it to him a few times on the, hey, you're going to guard me straight up. I'm just going to walk you to the basket and put you in the hole. And so I would agree with you. That's all I would say that. It's like Plunch and Debo, bro, at the end of the movie.

It's like, Wimby is a bully, especially throughout this postage, and he showed that folks with his shot blocking and also kind of is bullshit, you know. Let's just be honest, and we'll get to that in the second. But, Howard, I want to talk about the lessons that we can, you know, get from this postseason and this finals, right? Beginning of the season, it's wild. We all just assume that a Western Conference team was going to win this championship, right?

and rightfully so, the Western Conference on paper have the better teams. But it seemed like during this time, the Western Conference teams beat each other's ass. And by the time that they got to the Eastern Conference, there's no excuse. The NICs won this series, Fair and Square, not even taken away from them. But what lessons should we take from this season as an Eastern Conference by the extension of the NICS? There's so many ways we can go with this. But let's just start with that. What was the biggest lesson that we can get from this NIC's title and how we kind of look forward?

to the next season and make maybe better predictions. I honestly think after eight champions in eight years, all of them with a fairly unique kind of evolution and storyline, that it's now almost futile to say, well, if the Knicks of the Champions now, and they did it this way, built this way, with this kind of team and this kind of star player, what can others do to try to replicate it?

And it's like, I don't know that any one model is replicatable. Like, I just don't. Like, I, I, the Knicks start this run by snatching a guy who's a free agent, who is a secondary type player, who hasn't been an all-star, who's had some nice moments, but he's not a superstar. He's, you're paying him less than the max. Nobody knew at the moment that they signed Jalen Brunson, maybe not even Jalen and Rick Brunson, that he would become this, right? So you can't replicate that. Now, you can look for diamonds in the rough. you can be opportunistic, you can say, ooh, that team, Dallas Mavericks is underestimating,

undervaluing their own guy. Let's go grab him. We think there's more there. Cool. I don't know how many opportunities there are to do that in this league. I think, you know, this kind of, it's just like with, you know, Yokic and Brunson, both being second round picks who become finals MVP's. The formula doesn't then become find a guy in the second round and hope he becomes an MVP.

It also could become, like I think about Shane. at Gilkis Alexandra last year, right? Is another guy that's like, oh, we like him. This is undervalued on your end. We're going to trade for him. All right. So my buddy, Steve Alardi, former analytics guy in the league, who I've cited a couple times on this podcast, he had sent me this observation the other day.

Last eight finals MVP's, their average draft position, 15th. So that's Brunson at 33, Shea at 11, Jalen Brown at three. So there's the rare kind of like weirdly rare top three pick who became MVP. Yokeech 41, Curry is seven, Yonis 15, LeBron number one, of course, and Kauai 15. So in our eight year run of eight champions and eight years, eight different finals MVP's, you've got, you know, three guys who were drafted in the top 10, two, excuse me. And everybody else is outside the top 10 or, excuse me, yeah, it was three in the top 10. three.

Yeah. And then a bunch of guys who were in the teens or a couple second rounders. So like good luck saying like, well, we'll just find our Janus or we'll find our Kauai or our Yokic or our Shea or it like, scouting is super important. Development is super important. But I think the most important lesson of this Knicks era is once you get the guy and you realize, ooh, we didn't know that we had the guy capital T capital G at the time that we signed him.

We had hopes. But once you see him evolving into that. that you do everything possible to surround him with the right kind of players, right? And I remember in real time, like, I loved the OJanobe trade. It was painful for Knicks fans because they loved Emmanuel quickly and they still had hopes for RJ Barrett. And flipping those guys for Ananobe who had an injury history, the Raptors were a little down on him because they knew he wanted, you know, a max deal that they were not willing to give

him because they didn't think he was worth it. They saw him as like great defender who can shoot the three, but, you know, puts the ball on floor you start to cringe. Like they weren't sure he could be that that complete player. And the Knicks are like, F it, this guy's the perfect guy to have. We have Jalen Brunson who's going to be a defensive liability, but a great offensive engine. We need O'G and Ninobe. We need McHale Bridges. And then Nix fans are cringing again. And I'm not blaming Knicks fans. Like a lot of people cringed at the draft capital cost of getting McHale Bridges. But you needed those guys. You needed guys like that. Mitchell Robinson, the only Knicks draft pick who was a serious part of this rotation. And he was from

the previous administration. He's one of the lone holdovers. They got rid of everybody because they saw what they had in Jalen Brunson and they said, these are the kinds of players we need around him. That it happened to also be a couple of Villanova guys, all the more, you know, great for your chemistry. Worldwide West influence right there, you know, a little bit. Probably. But it was just, it's a really smart, methodical, patient build, an opportunistic build. And those are, none of those are, are, descriptors you would have used for the Knicks and the way they operated for the prior 20 years. But that is, if there's a lesson, that's kind of the lesson for the rest of the league is, you know, you have to be a little bit methodical and patient.

And then, you know, once you see the opportunity, oh shit, there's an OG An Anobie available, boom, let's go get them. I don't care what it costs. On the cost part of it, though, by the way, I've said this before, but I want to just reiterate this, this was not a big market stomping everybody. else with their incredible resources and influence and whatever. They didn't attract like, yeah, guys like playing in New York, but they got Jalen Brunson mostly because they identified him, but also, yeah, he had a preexisting relationship

with Leon Rose, who was his dad's agent and his Jaylon's godfather and all this other stuff. It wasn't about New York. It was about relationships. But their payroll was seventh this season. Now, it's still top 10, but it's seventh, not number one, not number two, not number three. This wasn't a team that was just like throwing its money around. Now it's going to get higher.

Like the payroll's going to keep growing. They're going to start having tax concerns and second apron concerns and whatever. But this was not some big market bill. This was a, any team with lesser resources in any market could have done something like this. And so I think that's important to note too. You know what I thought about, I thought about a lot of about the Washington Wizards due during this run. I'm sorry.

I think teams are just, sorry. The reason why I did though is because, no, the reason why. I thought about it is because, like, I think that this is going to be the new model, right? Like, I think that you're right and, like, I think the teams need to have a vision for what they want to do, identifying players and building around them, right? But I think what you're also going to see, and they remember if it may be seeing, you know, what the Washington was holding is. But I thought about their Trey Young trade, whatever they, you know, I don't know that they think that he's going to be Brunson and what the future is going to be. But I think you're going to start seeing a lot more flyers being taken, right? And just a lot of teams are just saying, fuck it.

Like, let's just try it, especially with the Eastern Conference the way it is, right? And like, hey, maybe we can do that. And maybe we can get into the mix. And it's a longer process what the Knicks showed us. That wasn't overnight. This is like the second, how would I say this one? The second infancy or the second version of this type of team, right? Because they traded for Kat.

And they did have a metamorphosis as they, you know, went on. I thought about the Wizards and that like I think they're the model of what teams are going to be because not all teams are going to get this right. But I think in the new collective bargain room in the new era that we're in, you're just going to have to just try shit and pivot. And I think this is how we're going to see. And I'm curious to see what type of movement is going to happen. But I'm also curious to see like how many of the bad teams just try to use this model and just kind of maybe just try to sort circuit and be like, hey, we're just going to do this really quickly just to get better because the Knicks did it. when not actually seeing, hey, this was a methodical multi-year process. So we'll see.

I think it was just a good and a bad thing. But I thought about the wizard because I was like, oh, okay, it's a curious move to get Tray Young. But maybe their vision is like, hey, maybe fuck it, it's a, it's a wide over Eastern Conference. Let's just take our chances. And, you know, we might be validated because the Knicks did a version of this. Well, maybe less wide open than it was, right? Because the NICs are now champions and the Celtics are still formidable to say the least and we'll see what they do if they end up with Janus or not.

And the Pistons may be one player away from being like super good. And there were a 60 win team last year. And the Pacers are getting Halliburton back and are going to be right there in the mix. So I'm not sure how wide open it is. I think there are multiple contenders. We can call it that way. Sorry, Cliff, no. No six is two, bro.

Come on, stop. Listen, Cliff, you know how much benefit of the doubt at my own expense of my reputation I was giving your team for the last year or two. I think I'm done for now. The top of the east is now really formidable. And I think that's interesting. The Tray Young thing is interesting, Logan, because another small guard, right? Like, it's not, and it's not like they're building around him because they also got Anthony Davis. I'm not sure how long either of those guys are going to be there. So quick asterisk on all of this. I don't know what the wizards are actually doing. But if those guys stay, they are trying to accelerate their build.

they've got, you know, a great pick coming and more talent. And they've got some, you know, the Alex SARS and everybody else's. I don't know what to make of the Wizards yet. But they are banking on another small guard and Trey Young. Quick note, quick, can I just go back to the small guard thing for a second? Yeah. Because a friend of mine was hitting me right after like literally hours, I think, after the championship and saying, maybe it was the day before, but it was like, why are we stuck on this thing?

didn't Steph already disprove it? Didn't Isaiah already just prove it? And so I had to like step back and think about it for a minute and why we're still stuck on this. And maybe we'll be less stuck on it now that Jalen Brunson has led the next to the title. I think Jalen's listed to like 6-2, 6-3, but like that's a really, really generous. Like I've stood next to him and I don't think he's that much taller than me and I'm a tad under six feet.

So Steph is listed at 6-2. Isaiah's listed at 6-1. Isaiah Thomas had Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Bill M. Beer, Mark Aguire, Mark McGuire, Rick Mahorn, you know, for those two championships, some combination of those guys. So, yeah, small guard, but like with Brunson, you had the right guys around you. And in Isaiah's case, like serious Hall of Famers. And like Dennis Rodman, freak of nature and like an all-time unique player. Steph, you know, he's the greatest shooter of all time.

So he's an anomaly anyway. So you can be, you can be short as long as you're short and the greatest shooter of all time. That would be the lesson of Steph. Also having the second greatest shooter of all time and Clay Thompson next to you. also having one of the greatest defenders of all time and Draymond Green there. And oh yeah, for championships two and three,

Kevin Durant, who was way taller than six two. So like there are there are circumstances around both Steph and Isaiah, but there's a reason these are rare because it is harder to build a championship team around a small guard. Like saying it's never is the problem. Never, you can't,

won't, never happen. That's the problem as being absolutist about it. Is it harder? I think, yeah. I think demonstrably over 80 years of the NBA, you can see that it is. The other thing to remember historically is that when Michael Jordan won in the 90s and then won again and again and again, that was considered a seismic shift because the

league had been dominated by the Kareem Abdul-Jabars and the Wilk Chamberlains and the Bill Russell's. And oh, yeah, Magic and Bird come along. But those guys are like, you know, 6-7, 6-6-8 and also had like Magic had Kareem. Bird had Parrish and McHale. So Michael at 6-6 as a shooting guard, building a championship team, a dynasty around a shooting guard was unheard of until Michael did it. And so that was considered a seismic shift at the time even.

So the size mattering part of this, it's understandable. Like this is the history of the NBA. We are still stuck on this thing about small guards in part because we had a model for a very long time. You needed a dominant big or then you needed a Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan clone, Kobe Bryant. Even then, Kobe had Shaq. I think you just need great players. I think that's the, I think that's the model here. It's hard to build, it's hard to build teams because there's a, there's a small amount of big players.

If you, if you, if you sorted the MVP, the finals MVP's of every finals in history by height, the number of guys you're going to get at the bottom end of there in the six to six two range, that, like, that's going to be the smallest category. Well, for a long time, look, for for a long time, They didn't ask six, two players to be primary scores. Like, that was not what a point guard's role was through decades of the NBA existing. Like, your job was to set the table and let the big do the work or let the wing do the work. So I do think we're in an interesting era of basketball where people are realizing, you know, that those guys have offensive weaponry in their repertoire, too.

doesn't mean it's any less easy for them to win at that size, but like that they can be primary scores in a way that generations passed, they weren't just even interested in hearing that. You know, like AI, AI was AI. AI gets, they got the recipe wrong around AI. Like what they tried to do is just make it all defense and all, you need a, you need real offensive weaponry with that primary score. So that when they make that blanket defense for him,

you have an OG or a cat or someone that can supplement to the tune of 35 or whatever that looks like to keep him honest. And we didn't have that. I just look. Tony is another one. Like, if you go back and look at that team, clearly it's Tim Duncan's team, but like on any given night, Tony Parker was the problem. Like he was an absolute problem. He's got a finals MVP. Yeah. Look at the Pistons. Yeah. Look at the Trunty Billet-led pistons. Look at the Tonsie-Billard pistons. Chauncey is 6-2, 6-3. I mean, they had a real team, no disrespect to rip and all of those dudes.

But, like, Chauncey was kind of an engine of what they did. Like, it can have, you just have to get the recipe right. And we're in an age now where, quite frankly, you might see it more and more because a lot of these dudes are being taught to play the game, not just as a facilitator. Like, you're having more people come in to this league, young blood with the Sixers. what's what's sorry dude why am i drawing a blankie jishcom jy j maxi maxi well how big is maxi 63 62 62 6 3 62 maybe 6 4 on a good day i don't think 6 4 listed at 6 2 yeah and and if you're listed at 6 2 like you might be 6 1

so like i've never stood next to him i don't know but but the point is like you're you're in an era where that's going to be more accepted and you're going to have more people willing to swing at someone at that size that is really, really good at putting the ball in the cup and then trying to build around that special talent. So you might see it more, I don't know. I did want to add one other quick thing here just as an observation because I think once, you know, Brunson has this absolutely, it's incredible game five and an absolutely incredible last eight minutes of game five

to clinch the championship. Finals MVP, worthy of all of it, worthy of all the accolades. he was amazing. Lost in all of this is that the Spurs actually did a pretty damn good job on Brunson for most of the series. And especially the first three quarters of most of those games. It was the fourth quarters of the final minutes of games that they gagged. Jalen Brunson, five games in the NBA finals. He shot 43% on twos.

That is a career low in any playoff series for Jalen Brunson by a pretty decent measure. 19 assists in the series a career worst now it was just five games uh excuse me 23 assists 19 turnovers in five games that is a career worst and he's had longer series than that so 19 turnovers in five games is is pretty bad point being and especially through the first like three or four games i had done this exercise like all of these things were were among his career worst field go percentage uh turnovers assists they were doing a good job of bottling him up except if occasionally he'd say, fuck you,

I don't care what you're doing to me. I don't care if Wemby standing there. I don't care if Kassels on me. I don't care of how many great defenders you have to throw at me. It's my time and I'm doing my thing. And that is the greatness of Jalen Brunson. It's that he can get bottled up or a little rattled or maybe not rattled. They did have him in tough places to make,

you know, taking and missing tough shots. But when it's winning time, that's what that dude is wired for. And that's the part that you can. cannot quantify no matter what his size is or anything else. Like that's the greatness of Jalen Brunson. But they did do a pretty damn good job on him. Also not for nothing, of course. Wemby is the key to that defense. And you see the on off numbers every time he sat, like they win the minutes he's on the court. They lose the minutes he's off the court. But in fourth quarters,

he's gassed. And again, if you go quarter by quarter on Wemby's personal net rating, it's incredible off the charts plus in the first quarter. It's a little weaker in the second in third quarters and it falls off a cliff in the fourth quarter because he was gassed. And so, you know, there are two sides of the equation here. And this is a case where the spurs could not muster enough of what made them, of what got them those leads. They could not sustain it in those fourth quarters because they were gassed and experienced, both, whatever.

It's the same. I mean, it all goes, that all goes together. That's, that's, yes, gassed and experienced. Like this is, when Wembe came into the league, like this is. is what people were saying. Like I think when when some of us older people said his body, like, and it didn't manifest itself in regular season, him being hurt or anything like that. There was a lot of people, you know, saying, oh, that wasn't going to be an issue.

But that is something that gets better over time. Like he came into the league and it got better to this year. And it was incredible, but it will have to take another jump in terms of just his overall strength and and ability to absorb the type of punishment that he has to absorb over the course of a season to ultimately be in the type of condition to finish those games. So I just think that's a young player on his arc. Those two things go hand in hand, you know? For sure. And I tell you what, the monks better implement some conditioning drills this summer with Wendy. The monks. Monks got to get him in the gym. They got to get him in the gym, okay?

They need to get his ass on that block. Yeah. Listen. All right. Let's know. Let's know. Let's know. No, no, no, listen. I know how crazy that sounds. No, no, no. I know how crazy it sounds. Right now, because there was some other stuff, Nicks related that we will get back to, but I want to have the Wembe discussion right now. I'm going to say my observations, Roger,

and I'm going to throw them your way. There was, I think ever since after game one of the conference finals, when he had that 41 and 24 game, there was a lack of aggression from Wemby throughout the postseason, I believe, right? And we talked about it even the start of this NICS series, right, where it was like there was a lot of settling for threes. There was a lot of just indecision. The lane was right there.

Remember, I think I said this after game one or two. I'm like, yo, Cat is giving you the lane, bro. Go to the cup. And there would be maybe one or two plays where he would like kind of finally figure it out. And usually it was when the spurs were down that he would maybe get a dunk with the left hand. And then there was another thing where, I mean, the point guard play in this finals from the spurs was just atrocious. So like this, like point guard specific play. And I know Dylan Harper played really well.

We'll get to him in a minute. But like the combination of Darren Fox and Stefan Castle in terms of trying to organize an offense was really, really bad. And if he had, if Wimby had a point guard, I believe it's like, don't get your ass in a block. I'm not passing you the ball until you get your ass in the block. The Knicks went super small and he still wasn't dunking on their faces, right? Like it was just such a, that's my observation, Roger. Then my own point, how did you feel about his aggression or lack there of aggression in this post, in this file specifically?

Point guard play was less than stellar for the Spurs. I don't think that a point guard was the issue with Wemby being where he was on the floor. I think that is because of Wemby's skill set, I think that the Spurs identified what he does well and where he likes to get the ball. and that's what they had to play out of this year. So I don't think a point guard telling him to get on the block was going to make him go to the block. He does not want to be there.

Like that's not where he wants to be over and over again. You know, yeah, there were, look, man, you could see a lane from 22, 23 feet to the basket. You could look, you could see it, right? And at 7-6, bro, like, that's a lot of body and a lot of time that it takes to get from 23 feet to 5 feet from the rim, right? And so, and there are four other defenders on the floor that can disrupt that. And so, you know, it's not as simple as saying, oh, there's a lane, go get it.

Like, he's looking around. He's seeing people in gaps. He's seeing somebody loaded behind it. Like, there's a lot going on. That's why I say, all right, you ever been to like the YMCA or you're in pickup games or go watch an old pro like me. And I'm not comparing myself to Wembe at all. Let's get that straight.

But if I went to play right now, do you know where I would play most of the game? Where? On the corner? I'd play it in the mid post. Okay. I'd play it in the mid post to low post, provided I had a good matchup,

and I'd live there. It takes less out of you. That's what LeBron learned. It takes less out of, do you know how hard it is to be living from 23 feet? You're talking about a guy who's already gassed. Already is kind of slight a frame and you're saying his numbers are dropping off a cliff in the fourth quarter

and you're going to ask him to have to work from 23 feet away from the basket all night, every game. Heaves for him with six minutes left of the fourth quarter. It's ridiculous. No, it's not ridiculous. I shouldn't say that. But it was kind of ridiculous to watch because, and again, on his arc, he will get this. But he doesn't have to turn into a back-to-the-basket post-play.

or like Shaq, that's not what anyone is saying. That's certainly not what I'm saying. What I am saying, though, is that there are times in a basketball game where because of the defensive scheme, the spacing on the floor, your level of fatigue, it behooves you to get a better catch in a more desirable position on the floor where it's going to take less out of you to execute said shot. Right?

And that could be a fade away. That could be, that could, you know, whatever you. you feel comfortable within those spaces, mid post to low post, do it. But get there. So the catch is easy. Yo, just put it to my hand. Boom. Now I'm 7.6.

I'm just going up over the top of, there's very little you can do with that. Michael Jordan was 6.6. Who blocked his fade? No one. Kobe was 6.6. Who blocked his fade? No one. You're 7.5.

Like, there's a reason Kobe, there's a reason Kobe didn't always have me out in space or the better defenders out in space trying to beat them off the bounce. That's fucking really hard. And there's a lot of people helping us. So what was Kobe's answer? Hey, bro, get off of the ball. I don't want it out here at the top of the key. Let me get behind the defense.

Give it to me in the mid post to like three quarters. And I'll get a catch. I've got a live dribble. And now I'm, Raj is smaller than me. And I'm just going to play him here with a live dribble. And I can see the defense coming. and most of the times it won't even fucking matter because this is just going to be make or miss for me dude

yeah and he needs to find that they need to find that for him that'll help them carry and close games roger i felt watching this series like and i told howard this this was the discussion point after the finals it was like damn i can't wait to see wimby in three years because in a lot of ways it felt like the spurs team had supreme talent which is why they got here right and you know they had you know gum shining you know they were better better team against OK, see all those things. But when I say that they got in on town,

and it was like there's other things that you can do to make the game easier that the Knicks kind of mastered down the stretch of games that the Spurs just didn't have yet, right? Like, we were always talking about one of the other shoe going to drop in terms of their lack of experience. And I think that this is what we saw. But one of the biggest takeaways that I saw was like, damn, Wimby, you can make this game easier than it is right now for you.

Just with some simple stuff, right? And he just isn't there yet. And that was the thing that I kept just seeing, seen. Well, let me just, I'm sorry, because like, look, we talk about unicorns and we talk about, you know, skill sets and we talk about all that. And then, like, go to every, go to greets. Like, go to the grates. And look how their skill set when it matters, the most shrinks. I mean, they don't lose the skill set, but they don't rely on having to pull at 1,000 different skills.

they distill that down to a couple things that they really want to do. And a couple spots on the floor that they'd ideally really like to get to. And that's what they do. Because it simplifies it. You know, it's, it's almost a master of like a jack of all trades and a master of none. Right. Like you need to become a master of something that's in those areas that it becomes easier for you late in games. not just from an execution standpoint,

but from a thought process standpoint, this is where I'm going. This is what I want to do. Shit, I just talked to fucking tie about that in the car today. Like, yo, bro, you have to have something that you know, given four seconds on any given spot on the floor, this is what I'm getting to provided you let me get to that. If you don't have that,

you're just drawing at a bunch of straws. Like you're just trying to catch shit in the air. Yeah. Let's talk about what we think about Limby before these playoffs first. after right because the game is one thing rajin beck but she's like there's a bit of a villain arc that is coming across right like he i referenced him being a bully throughout this postseason he like there is the alleged like you know targeting that he was doing an lkc series there was a shit that the bullshit that he was doing uh to jalen brunson when he was giving him a little hip

check like he was what's up can i ask you all a question because i know the whole ref thing was I did see the ankle. I did see the, y'all feel what I'm saying now? You saw that ankle roll. You saw Jalen Bruns and get a flagrant one for stepping under someone earlier in that series, bro. And then you saw, but then you saw Wimby also stepping under people as well. Like he was. But that's what I, what I'm saying though.

And no and you're going to review that and we don't give a flagrant. Yeah. What are we doing? It's like it, it, hold. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. But like, from what I see, Roger, is that on one hand, and this is like the perfect villain thing that I'm thinking about, right? Because on one hand, you're giving the impression when you do that, that the league feels some type of way about this player and doesn't feel another.

And the players and everybody else is starting to feel another way about him, right? Because we saw the Nasreid situation where he doesn't, the punishment didn't seem like it added up to the action, right? we saw the stepping up underneath people. We saw him get these curious ejections. We saw him fuck up a star player on the other team in like no retribution, right? And so it feels like a turn, Howard Beck. It does feel like that. I'm sorry, I wanted to catch you.

I just want to get that point out that we're starting to see these instances where there is a gap between where the league is putting this guy and where the league's players are starting to feel like, hold on, bro. What the fuck is he doing, man? Like, this is a, there's going to be an argument. Like, this motherfucker's a dirty player, dude. Like, this is your guy. This is your guy right here. Andy's not shaking hands after a game? Any of the series when he loses?

Oh, okay. Michelle, you really don't fuck with us. You don't really fuck with what the game and the basketball gods require of you. We see what's going on here. I can definitely say that the players are starting to field at Howard. Sure. Real quick. The landing zone violations, which if you,

catch them in real time are, of course, a flagrant one. If the officials determined that that's what happened, you didn't give them space to land. Fun little trivia note here, because I got this information yesterday. Do you guys know the last time? Because they didn't catch it in real time, right? And then the question became, oh, should they have, what's that? Grigious. Agreges.

Should they have gotten, should they have then upgraded it retroactively? And in the case of game five, if there had been a game six, oh, are they going to upgrade retroactively? now the league has to decide whether or not Wembe is going to be suspended for a game six. Real quick. Do you guys know the last time you don't, but I'm just going to ask and you can guess. The last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy a flagrant for a landing zone violation that they missed in real time. Was it Draymond?

No, a landing zone violation. I don't know who it was. Do you know how long it's been since the last time they retroactively gave a flagrant? Was it Dalen Rose? It was it Dailen Rose in the finals in 2000, right? Was it? Was that even a rule back then? I don't think it was a role.

It wasn't. It wasn't a rule until Zaza and Kauai. I had people do that to me intentionally, and there wasn't even a foul or anything called. It was a thing back then. Bruce Bowen did it all the time. Hi, Bruce. Yeah.

It has been since 2019, the last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy. So I know this was like a talking point after the first one, after the second one, and what would have happened in a game six. The NBA, while they do review everything and they do assess retroactively. and sometimes even retroactive technicals. It's super, super rare for them to issue a retroactive landing zone violation flagrant. I think because it is not considered as egregious, these are not intentionally violent plays. Sometimes it's just you get tangled or you drifted or whatever.

And the case of the last one with Wemby and Brunson, they both drifted. I think it was definitely over. I think they definitely missed it. But I don't think the NBA was going to retroactively. give it and not because of some conspiracy to protect Wembe, but just because they very rarely do it. 2019 was the last time. So it's just a worthwhile note as people, you know. There was no chance. Yeah. There was no chance. But also, Raj, not because they're protecting Wembe, but because they just rarely do it. I understand. I understand what you're saying, and I saying,

I slightly disagree with that. Like, it was going to be convenient. It was going to be convenient for them to lean on, we rarely do this. But like, even if they had done it, they weren't doing it. And Draymond Green does that in his prime in this playoffs. And he has continued things. They're giving him the fuck out of here, bro. Your history matters, though. Let's not, don't do that. I'm saying.

But what I'm saying, no, Howard, right now is Wimby is your history shouldn't matter. It does. Why should it always does? Wait, wait, Howard, why should your history matter on a, because if you have a history, wait a minute, your history should matter on something that's subjective. That's not subjective. You fucking encroached on his landing zone. The rule says, if he comes.

down on you, that is a fucking flagrant. That's not subjective. So like now you're talking about like pushing and shoving and all of that and you want to say, oh, well, that didn't rise to the level, but his history suggests that he is an instigator. I co-sign on that. But on something as cut and dry as a landing zone infraction when your other star player has clearly rolled his ankle, I don't think your history should come into play there. That's cut and dry. No, no, no. You're right. There are different things. I agree with everything you just said. I'm only objecting to Logan's invoking of Draymond because he's such an easy trigger point. If Draymond had done X, Y, Z, yeah,

Draymond does a lot of shit. And he has a history. Landing zone violations or landing zone violations. You're right. Just like a foul is a foul. You don't like, like, oh, that guy never fouls a three point shooter. We shouldn't give them these. Yeah, it's not that.

That's a fair point. But also I would say this, though, like I do believe that that is a fair point. And I'll give you that. I do believe, though, that this postseason, Wimby is starting to build a reputation. I think that is very clear cut. So you asked me that. clear cut. And I hadn't answered yet. It's interesting because like it's only year three for him, right? And I think over the course of his first two years, our broad impression of Wembe as a personality, as a figure, as well as as a basketball player, is polished beyond his years. He's thoughtful. Yeah, he's going and hanging with the Shaolin monks, but also like he's reading books and he's going and playing chess in Washington Square Park. And just his interviews are very thoughtful. And so, I think the broad outline of him, the impression of him that we have perceived and that we as the media have then, I think, amplified is this is a guy who's really polished and professional and thoughtful and, you know, and in a lot of ways comes off as very like, you know, kind feels like the wrong word because he is a competitor. But like there was just an aspect of him that seemed to be kind of, you know, almost like this like, you know, virtuous basketball figure, right? He's dominant, but he's not, but he's not vicious, right? And we've seen guys who who model themselves as,

killers. Kobe would refer to himself as a killer. Iverson was a killer. Jordan was a killer. Shaq wanted to stuff you in the basket. And we didn't see Wemby that way, in part because of his frame, in part maybe because people... There's always the European thing. It's a lot of things. But this is the first time over the last few weeks where it's like, oh, oh, he's got an edge. And at times that actually came off, I think, as positive. Like in the Thunder series, some of the things he was doing it was just like, oh, I like how emphatic he's being. I like how aggressive he's being. And then the finals, it spilled over into,

fuck that. Yeah. Fuck that. And those narratives, bro, because people don't give Lou Dort that kind of grace. Okay. They don't. History of pulling shit. You don't know, but he's got a history.

Boy, you ain't seen the clip of this man trying to kick somebody's knee? If that had been Lou Dort in the finals, people would have lost their ever-loving mind. In part because he's getting too much grace. But now you have a history. But now you have a history. You have a history now. Now he does.

Roger, over the last two weeks, now he does. Now next season, if you want to say he's got a history. He tried to break someone's face in the first round of the playoffs. He tried to decapitate someone, Howard. It was his dad. Like, you guys think that's funny. I tried to like, no, no, no. This isn't even debatable.

Like, I won't even debate this. with you all. What he tried to do to Nas Reid was break his face. And everybody pawned it off like it was not this big deal. I've been there. Like he tried to break that man's face. I think what I'm trying to say here, Raja, is we had an impression built on a couple of years of him playing a certain way and presenting a certain way, speaking a certain way. And that has changed in the last, not maybe just two weeks, maybe the last six weeks, whatever it's been starting from Nas read forward. Until the Nasreid thing happened, there had not been a Nasreid thing. That's my point.

It's not that we should let him off the hook or that we should view him differently than Lou Dort. It's that Lou Dort already had all this built up. So every time he does it, we go, there goes Lou Dort again. Now that Wemby's done all this for the last six weeks, if you want to say there goes Wembe again, fine. If you want to say he's dirty, however you want to classify him, that's fine. We all met.

I'm just saying it, okay, it changed in the last month and a half. I'm fine with that, Howard. If we're going to have that energy, I'm fine with that. I'm not arguing with you that. What I would say to the Lou Dort is been in the league a lot longer and didn't have in history until he had a history. Sure. Right. So like once you start having the history, like we got to keep the same energy. And that's like that that's always my beef because like, like, and this is personal to me. I'm not going to sit on here and act like it's not. Like I, you know, like people would tell you that I used to put my foot under people's

ankles and roll. Like I'm not immune to someone sending me one of those. And I'm like, wait, I've never done that ever in my career. But I get lumped into that because, you know, like there's one narrative for us. And then there's another narrative for star players. Like, I had a star player who came to my team, put his foot under mine and intentionally hurt me. And I rang him up on that shit in film, like one of his first days. Like, yo, my man, you're trying to tell me you ain't do that shit on purpose?

No, I ain't do it on purpose. I ain't do it on purpose. So I took his ass to the film room, showed it to him. Oh, yeah, my bad. Like, yeah. But like you guys, like the media typically. doesn't keep the same energy for some of us that they then do for the stars. And that's all I'm asking for. That's personal to me. Like he got a history now in my book. Yeah. I mean,

I think we're all in agreeance there on that he has a history now. And we're going to be looking closely on. What I do think, though, and I think it's another point. And I think that we get, as a media avaradus, I do think that we get so in love with the storytelling aspect of it. Like, this is great. You know, like, this is what we're going to do. He's not a villain. He is an interesting subject for us, right? And so I think that that may lead to just how we talk about things in a way that I don't think that aligns maybe with what's going or maybe it doesn't take into care into all of the parties involved. It's human nature. It's human nature. It's three years in and we're still learning about him. Yeah. And he might he might not transgress anymore

and that's fine. Like you know what I mean? Like I'm not 22 saying yeah, but like there has been some history of that. And as far as the stars go, look, you understand that, bro. Like, these are star-driven leagues with star-driven narratives and it's not fun for fans. You know, like you, you got to have the antagonist and stuff like that. Like, I'm good with that. It's just a hard, history is a hard thing for me because no one has a history, right? Like, no one came into the NBA on their first game and rung up two flagrants. And now you're like, oh, for the rest of his career, there's going to be history. So like it, it starts to evolve and happen. And then once you get it, you have it. And he's no different in that regard. And so we all agree. But like he could very easily not have any more

flagrants and not be sticking his foot under people's legs and not try to break somebody's face. And then you're fine. Yeah. Two more questions before we got to. Oh yeah. I was just real quick. We also though, and by we, and this is not just media. I think Rajah, I think you and other former players kind of get caught up in this too, though. Guys get tagged, especially European players. still, after all this time, there's still a little bit like the soft label, and especially if you're built the way he's built. I think about Pao Gasol and how skinny he was when he came in. And then they're constantly having to fight this uphill battle about like, are they tough enough and this and that? And like, part of the way you make your bones in the NBA and you change that

reputation is if they're beating you up, beat them back. And so he lost it a couple times and he, he certainly overstepped. But like, there's a certain aspect of that where I think there are some people who are probably privately saying like, fuck yeah, I'm glad he did that. He needs to do that. Like that's part of his growth too. Just don't go over the line and don't hurt anybody. Yeah. No, look, I've been one of those people. I mean, yeah, dude, like, you got to defend yourself.

Like, I'm not, I, if I got on here and said anything to the contrary of that, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world. Because I am firmly in the camp of once you feel like you've had enough, you got to handle your business. That's just like human being shit. but there's a line that's drawn as to what's acceptable for that. And if you cross it, like I crossed it immediately and forever, I live in that space. I can't get out of it. Once you cross it, you live with the, I don't want to hear, oh, he was soft. And so he did it.

And then now, like, we're just going to, well, I wasn't soft and I did it. So like, I don't get the pass. I don't know if it's about passing. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's almost a.

One, it's sometimes a no one situation. And two, we, the chattering classes, media and fans, if a guy doesn't stick up for himself and is not physical, we knock them for being soft. They stick up for themselves. They get physical. They maybe cross a line. And now it's like, now you're a villain and you're a terrible person. And it's like, but Roger, that's exactly what you experienced, right? Like, you one incident and suddenly you're tagged for the rest of your career.

And so this is, but this is what I'm saying, because everything is oversimplified and because these things, And especially now between social media and 24-7 debate shows, every day it has to be one extreme or the other. I don't think on this show, the three of us are guilty of that, generally speaking. I think we're trying to live in the nuance. And even as we hash this out in real time here, we're trying to find, like, where is like the fair version of this that is not extreme? But we're living in times when everything is just teased out to the nth degree and hyperboized, if that's, even a word. And so I'm just like, I try to push back against the extremes.

And I'm always, I am trying to find that middle space there. And I think in Wembe's case, we're going to go into next season with a different impression of him, both positively and negatively. And the question is, what does he do next? Yeah. I agree. I agree. I would, I'd be remiss, though, like if we're doing this in real time.

There's a difference between physically standing up and pushing back and putting your feet under someone in their landing zone. That's not a tough play. That's not, that's not, that's not a tough play. Like, um, and so there are plays that you can make where you're, you know, boom, you're bumping, you're bumping. You throw a guy to the ground. Like, I'm, I'm fine with that.

Like, you, you know, even the one with, um, Jalen Brunson should have been a flagrant because you mushed him. But like, hey, you know, like, if you would, if you thought he was up in your ribs and he was, and he was like trying to break your ribs and you got his little ass off you, I'm okay. Like, I'm okay with that. But they do start to pile up.

And when there's, you know, Hansel and Gretel, there's a trail. Like, you got to follow that damn trail, you know? And if it leads you to a place where the,

where you're like, well, shit, there's enough evidence. Like, I just, while I agree with you, Howard, I hate the world we live in

where you got to be one thing or the other. Some people in the league, like my time is past, but some people in the league still can't get out of that box, no matter what, right?

And so all I'm saying is, it's sticking up because I was one, of them, I don't think it's necessarily fair because of your stature as a player in the league to avoid being put in that box if there's enough evidence to put you in that box.

Even if it's just until you prove otherwise, that's all I'm saying. He's getting scrutinized. I don't think anybody's giving a pass. Okay, two more things that only get through in a week. One thing, Howard, do you feel vindicated that your Deeran Fox trade take

from the beginning of the season is now? receiver pitch? Not necessarily. They probably needed him for this run, but I mean, and not because, like, I don't think you trade him because of what happened in the finals. I think if you trade him, you do it because partially contract and partially because Dylan Harper just needs all the runway in the world now. In between Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle, like, you're set.

So the day is coming. It may not be this summer. It may not be next season, but like, Darren Fox is not going to be there for the next two, three years, I don't think. So that was my impulse at the time they drafted Dylan Harper. It's certainly emboldened by this, certainly emboldened by running into Ron Harper in the hallway right after game five. He's the first person I saw downstairs. Proud Daddy, feeling pretty good. Like, yeah, they lost and all that stuff. But like, uh, what, yeah, we, we talked a little bit about, yeah, he's going to be rising in like five years. He's like, he's like, wow. He's like your lips, bro. Yeah, basically it's like,

way do you see what he comes back as, you know, next, next season. So, um, that's awesome. Um, Anyway, I don't know if Deere Fox would get traded, but like it's pretty damn clear that Dylan Harper is going to be an absolute fucking stud in this league. Shout out to Ron Harper. So. Rob, thoughts on the Fox situation and the Plingar situation is the whole in San Antonio. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't great. I had a lot of people asking me, obviously, I wasn't on the pod, but about the do you sit Deer and Fox and start, you know, Dylan and I was on the side of no.

because I think you want to keep it as comfortable and as usual and as normal for them as possible in a run like that. But I would agree with Howard 100%. What he showed you in this playoff run as a first year player has got to be so exciting for not only dad, but the organization that you want to do everything you can to support that arc and him getting to the top of that trajectory as fast as possible. So, you know, within the team concept, because obviously we have to keep winning, it can't just be we're forgetting everything to get him to that point. But we certainly have to figure out how to get him to that point as quick as possible and continue to win games.

And if that means, and it does mean having him on the floor more and letting him play through some stuff and having him have to figure it out because it's all on him in the realm of point guardness and taking care of the ball and getting us into offense, then you do what you have to do to make that happen. Yeah. One other thing that I want to get to before ruin of the week, the trajectory of Mike Brown. Wow. Yeah. So happy. Good for you. Mike Brown. Good for you, Mike Brown. Who let the dogs out? Who let the dogs out?

Yes. I'm glad that Mike Brown is in a position where he could actually show his personality, the one that we, me, I don't know if you saw it, Roger, but me and Beck have seen behind the scenes for a long time. That very gregarious personality that he doesn't show very often and that he's finally showing to the world. That is great. What is this trajectory, Howard, now that he has a title? I was thinking maybe it's a little bit of a Doc Rivers arc, right? Where, like, he's always been known as maybe a good coach, but, like, this validates, this championship kind of validates him in NBA lore, right? I don't know if Doc Rivers had a time where, like, we thought, okay, this is the, well, Doc Rivers is the last job and he's out of the league, right? It's probably the last job of his career, right?

Maybe this Bucks, probably this Bucks team was that for him. But Mike Brown was in a position when, you know, when he got hired by the Knicks, where it's like, this is probably his last shot. This is probably the last. Now he goes from that to he's a champion. Now he's an NBA lore. What is that? How do you see the Mike Brown arc right now?

And I'll go to Roger real quick. I think this is his fifth coaching stint because it was twice with Cleveland, L.A. and Sacramento. And so by the time you are, like, at some point, you're like the young hot shot up and comer. coach of the Goldosailles'A war is for like four weeks, three weeks, three, four weeks or something like that, right? Doesn't count on the record books. But there's, you know, there's, you only get so many shots. One day you're the young up and comer that everybody's like going on. Especially if you're black.

I did, I did the math on this about 10 years ago. And blackhead coaches, their average length of, of tenure compared to whitehead coaches. And I think this was both first timers and veterans, but especially first timers. much shorter. And you do usually get fewer shots. Mike Brown, you get that glow of the Warriors and being part of those championship teams and being part of that staff and being in Steph's orbit. And then you go to Sacramento and did it.

And he brought the Kings back to respectability. Like, you know, D.R. Fox, Sabonis, all these guys have something to do with that. But Mike Brown had a hellful lot to do with it. That he was fired for being coached the year. So there's your Doc Rivers comp. Doc Rivers, his first head coaching job. He goes straight from the broadcast booth to the Orlando Magic in 1999. He beats Phil Jackson for coach of the year in the 99-2000 season.

The Lakers won 67 games. The Magic finished, I think, either at 500 or just below, and Doc wins coach the year. Why? Because it was a roster full of guys nobody had, I mean, not that they never heard of it, it was like, you know, Chuckie Atkins and like, I don't know, a bow outlaw or something. Like it was, I think a young Ben Wallace pre-awsonness Ben Wallace. What's that? I said both of my guys.

You named both of my guys. So, but it was, Doc Rivers coached his ass off, a team that was expected to do absolutely nothing, and they get to like 500, and he wins coach of the year. But they didn't really progress enough after that, right? And then, you know, they get Team Mac and Grand Hill

and they can't stay healthy and whatever. And then eventually Doc lands in Boston. What people often forget about the Boston thing and Ubuntu and the championship and all that stuff is that, prior to them getting Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen everybody wanted they all wanted to trade Paul Pierce and fire dock

Rivers. They were like chant they were like fire dock chance the prior season and a couple months later they get these guys in the next year they're winning a championship. And so Mike Brown that's kind of similar in that you know fired multiple times people think it's it may be over for him. When you're fired by the Sacramento Kings the most dysfunctional

franchise in the NBA and it's already your fourth chance like that might be it for you. So yeah. then on top of that, he was like their sixth choice at best. Remember, they asked permission to talk to Jason Kidd, rejected. They wanted to get Quinn Snyder, rejected. They wanted to get Billy Donovan, rejected. Five head coaches that they asked for permission to talk to who were under contract refused on all of them. And then they landed on Mike Brown. And it looks like a consolation prize in some ways. And it's kind of, it feels disrespectful. But like, that's, that's how it played out.

And here he is. Like, this is an incredible moment of vindication for Mike Brown. By the way, Can I just read a quick blurb from our colleague Isaac Levy Rubinette in our off-season survey this morning? Yes, we can. If the past two seasons have taught us anything, it's all caps, get the hell out of Sacramento. Tyrese Halliburton was traded the Pacers in 2022, and he made the finals in 2025. Deeran Fox was traded in 2025 and turned around to make the finals in 2026, even if he did stink up the joint once he got there. Mike Brown was fired by the Kings in 2024 and won a championship with the next 18 months later, all of which is to say, I desperately want to see Demontas a bonus, find his way to the

Charlotte Hornets and eventually the 2028 NBA finals. Shout out to our guy, Isaac. That's a fantastic blurb. And boy, Sacramento, I feel so bad for Kings fans. Anyways, there's a lot of two of California. They chose that life. Rozier, what are your thoughts on Mike Brown? No, I mean, Howard laid out the arc.

I don't, like, well done. I would just, I'm just, I'm really, really happy for a dude who, like, those jobs aren't easy, man. Like, it doesn't matter who you are. that's tough and you can be an excellent chef. You can even have excellent ingredients and you try to make a dish and those ingredients just don't work well together. Right. And that doesn't mean that you're not a great chef. It just means like this is the best I could do with what I'm given here. Right. And so it's not always on these guys who are running these teams as to why it doesn't work. Sure, they bear

responsibility. And someone's got to go. It's usually easier to get rid of a coach. But I'm happy for all of them that are good dudes, like, because some of them, I'm sure aren't. I don't know many of them, but I do know Mike Brown and he's a good dude. And I do remember going to Cleveland. I've told this story before being asked to kind of consult on where that team was with him. And I felt bad for him when I walked in there and saw what he was dealing with. From not a talent on the roster standpoint, but like I was, it was just at whatever point in the season this was, he was not being heard at all or listened to, and it was a shame. And, you know, that happens.

No woe was him or anything like that. But to be standing here, like, as an NBA champion, you know, this many years later knowing him and knowing what he's gone through, like, I'm just super happy for him, man. And I think it's a really cool story. One of the all-time great people in NBA history. Like, as terms of persons and people and people that are just around the game. He was one of the hardest working people in the game as well. And sometimes, you know, that was used against him. I'm going to be out.

He worked too hard, you know. And I'm really happy to see him get his flowers. He earned that Terra Squad chain. He earned it. Not for nothing. Mike Brown only had one acceptable outcome. They fired Tom Thibodeau for losing in the conference finals. And after going to the conference finals,

him being the one to get them, the conference finals for the first time in 25 years. When you were the guy who replaced the guy who actually brought the team back to respectability and got them further than anybody had in 25 years, the bar is as high as it can possibly be. Mike Brown had only one outcome that was going to be acceptable probably to the owner who had already said championship or bust and maybe to the fans and certainly to anybody who thought that Tibbs got a raw deal. Like there was only one outcome that Mike Brown could succeed or could be considered a success and he got it. Who was a man?

Who was a dude that ever placed Jimmy Johnson at the U? Who won the title? Was it, Erickson, one of those guys? Dennis Erickson came in, yeah, he did. And won a national tap? But he also replaced Jimmy Johnson. He did his thing, though.

He did his thing. I think, was it Al, was it Coker? Was it Larry Coker 1-1-2? No. That wasn't 2000 now. Anyway, we're getting out of it. Let's get to ruin of the week. There's only can be one ruin of the week for us.

It's the our extended family. It's been motherfucking stiller, man. It's been motherfucking silly from pulling up at one of the greatest moments of his sports life, the greatest moment of his sports life, as he said on the podcast. And then blessing us with his presence, man. I want to tell the story. I need to go watch that pot. I need to go watch that pot.

Yes, you do. At the very least, the section of his interview. Last 15 minutes. The last 15 minutes for sure. I want to tell the story about it came together on the pod because, I was hearing it for the first time. And I think that would be really cool, too. Just tell the listenership and just, you know,

say how, like, you know, how Ben has just become like a bit of family to a real ones over the last two years. It's weird. He's, you know, it's crazy. But for the,

for the, for the pod listeners, we were trying to get Ben to get, I'm going to start off, first of all. I'm going to start off with, like, my version of the story and then go to Howard because Howard has all of the

intricacies of what happened on, on the ground. But, uh, to know this. We were trying to get Ben before the finals. And he was down. We had a time locked in, but he had scheduling issues

because he's like one of the fucking hardest working people on the planet. Dude has like 87 jobs. So he couldn't make it happen. So we're trying to find with his people just trying to find time to get him on. Meanwhile, he's transversing the globe, being Howard are transversing the globe,

back and forth from Stockholm. He's going back and forth between the world and these games in San in New York, so we're trying to find a time. And then by game five, it's like, let's just try to figure out a time after the finals, maybe. And then, like, everybody just like, so everybody went dark, and we just, like, watching the finals like everybody else. And then Beck sees him in San Antonio.

And then I'm going to let Beck take it from here on how everything went down from the ground in San Antonio. Everybody knows by now is obviously that Stiller was at all the games because he would be anyway, but he was also documenting it. He's, he's talked a little bit about this in very brief form about what he's doing with a documentary. So I'd already run into him at a couple of practices in New York. And so we'd chitchat along the way. But I wasn't bringing up the podcast thing because Logan was working on that through like official channels. After game five, and I'm, I'm running around all the back areas, trying to find people, whatever. I get Patrick Ewing. I got Alan Houston.

I'm just like looking for people to getting quotes and, you know, put it all in perspective, of all that stuff. And there's, there's Ben. So he's talking to Sean Powell from, the great Sean Powell from MBA.com, long-time NBA writer. And I'm waiting for Sean to kind of wind down. So I go up to Ben, hey man, congrats. How you feeling? Whatever. So we chat for a little bit. I get some official quotes from him that I can use in my story and all that stuff. In the meantime, like people keep coming over, one of their photos. I took two or three different photos of cameras with them with Ben because I'm standing there. Like, what the hell I might as well? I'm not on deadline yet. I've got an hour and a half before we have to pod.

And I introduced him to Tom Green. And I told the words real quick. I told the words, take your time to Howard. Like, yo, take your time. We'll be here when you need it

because I know how it is in reporting trip. It was also funny because I was thinking about Roger. Like, I love Roger. I wish he was here for this moment. But there ain't no way in hell. Roger's waiting a while after a finals game.

And I'm telling Howard to take his time to go report out. Our agreement, our agreement with each other and with our beloved producers was we would do that. We would start 90 minutes after. so that we don't keep everyone up all night, even though I had to stay up all night. So I am. I'm in a frenzy for 90 minutes just running around trying to find people. I stood in a stupid line to get into the next locker room and there was nothing to see there once we got in.

That's a story for another time. But I finally, I get Ben. Yeah, and at one point Tom Crean walks up. I know Tom a little bit from some Summer League stuff we've done together. And so next thing I'm introducing Tom Crean to Ben Stiller as if these two wouldn't, like, would need an introduction. Like, these are both very recognizable people, but I'm just in a weird space at this point. So I'm about to leave it. Did they know each other though?

No, no, no. Tom was like, Tom had walked up and went, oh, hey. And he goes, I wanted to meet Ben. And so I was like, oh, hey, Ben, Ben, Ben, Bill, Ben Stiller, Tom Crean. Like, like they wouldn't recognize. So fucking cool. It was just this impromptu, very, in retrospect, awkward, silly, stupid thing I did. But, but it was fun. So then I took a photo of Tom Crean and his daughters with Ben.

So I go, Ben, listen, I got to run. But by the way, I'm going to be potting in a little. bit down the hall here. They got us this little room, like behind the chapel room. There's like some little, you know, meditation room or something that they got me set up. I'm going to go do a podcast. You want to jump in, feel free. He's like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, well, let's see what happened. I had no thoughts whatsoever, Raja, that this was going to happen because everybody and their brother wants to talk to him, take photos with him, interview him. He's doing his documentary. He's, you know, probably going to some after party with Chalamee and Spike and Tracy Morgan or something.

the last thing I thought was he got time for our little old podcast So I find my way to that room I set up my people would laugh at the setup My laptop was literally perched on Like one of those like branded Coke refrigerators Like that you see in like the gyms or offices or whatever I just put it on there because I didn't have anything else

That was high enough It's a total like makeshift setup We start potting at about what was it A little after midnight It was like 1215 or something You're sleep, Rosza You're fucking not You're asleep

It would have been 1.15 your time because Texas is an hour behind. So it's very late. We're potting for a good 30, 40 minutes. And suddenly my phone rings. And I look down and it's Ben. And so I'm like, guys, hang on a sec. I pull away. I'm like, hey, where are? He's like, hey, I'm going to come down. I'm like, what? Really? Okay. This is, he's like, where are you? I'm like, I'm trying to describe it. Right. And also a quick thing to San Antonio, and you've all played in San Antonio, we've covered a lot of games in San Antonio. They have all these fucking tunnels. It's a labyrinth. of the arena. You can't, like, so I'm

telling Beck, Beck is like, I got a pod, but you can come in here. I'm like, Beck, get your ass out and go find him. I say, go find, you go fucking find him. So, yeah, Logan and Cliff are yelling at me, like, they're worried that he's going to like get lost or we're not going to get him. So I do pop out for a minute. I have these guys who have

setting up all their equipment outside. I'm like, guys, can you watch the room for me? Got all my stuff in there, whatever. Like, I got to go find and I'm running around and I can't, I couldn't quite find him. So then I call him. but he's in the middle of something, so the conversation was garbled. He's talking to two, like cross talk all this.

I'm like, ah, I got to get back, but I know he's coming. He said he's coming. I told him the room that is. I said, just look for this room. He finally, I think,

followed up with the text said, somebody from the NBA knows where it is. They're going to bring him. So I sit back down. I calm these motherfuckers down because they were all hyper about him. We're like, chill.

We're fine, guys. I told Beck to get the fuck up again. I said, Beck, He's getting escorted. I said Beck. It's like, dude, we're good. Relax. There's a lot of raw footage cuts unaware of us just like, you know, like yelling at each other,

but not in a bad way. It was a lot of just frenzy and it was late and we're punchy. But yeah, so then I sat back down. We continue potting and then a little while later Ben comes through the door. So he is absolutely the real one of the week. That's probably, oh my God. And then like, you got to watch it. We're going to send you the lake.

And then he fucking is like, punch drunk. we did a we did a all the shit's bye like he was like he's like logan do it do do it do it and we're like somebody said that it looked like a fucking student access show that beck and uh the lighting was terrible because the lighting was terrible apologies to victoria oh and then we're going to put it up on the screen we got this phenomenal picture of Howard and beth doing blue steel at the end it was fucking incredible it was supposed to be a thumbnail but the lighting was terrible but um yeah it was great we we we did it man so bin stiller like our guy our dude i'm glad you guys i'm glad you guys got to experience that that's that's pretty cool that's on that night

for him like that energy had to be out of control so you missed it roger i know uh it's all right yeah yeah it's all right i'm gonna go back and watch it i'll just kind of just kind of put myself yeah yeah yeah i just try to got to insert myself into that that's cool that's cool um you're going to make it the next time. He's going to come back on the at some point, you know what I mean? And you were all going to be there. We still are owed an in person time in New York, right? You're supposed to go fucking do a Knicks game with him. But we're supposed to have dinner

in New York at some point. I'm on that. Yeah, we got to coordinate that. All right, man. Ben motherfucking-stiller, Rowan with a week. Can I give a... Yeah, I want to give a little shout out Rowan because my... Absolutely. My Youngblood tie, I was with him at the MVPA Top 100 camp in Rock Hill. and Kyrie was a guest workout.

They got to watch Kyrie workout with Phil handy. Phil was, I didn't seem Phil in a while, super cool watching those dudes coached my son. But like, as it was, like, you know, Ty's my middle boy. He loves Kyrie. He loves Kyrie. Kire on Kyrie's signature shoe drop,

the first night of his signature shoe in Cleveland, he found Ty and gave Ty his shoe. And Ty's been hooked ever since, Right? Like Kyrie is his dude. So anyway, like he comes in. He works out. I'm kind of in and out. And Ty comes up to me afterwards. And it's like, like he took a picture with Kai while Kai was walking out and stuff. And he said, Dad, I was hanging out over here. And Kyrie had come in the gym behind me. I didn't know it. He was like. And somebody kind of grabbed me by my shoulder and said, yo, what's up, Ty? He was like, dad. He knew my name. He knew my name. He was like. So anyway, I'm giving Kyrie real one of the week because Ty Bell will be. riding high off of that exchange for who knows how long. Yo man, I don't know. To remember his name is like, like, that's crazy.

That's kind of wild. So like, real one for that. I don't know what Ty is going to be. I know he's great and I know that he is just like, I watch his highlights all the time and he's a phenomenal player. But what a, what a treat to like have you as his pops bro. And like, just the way that he has been able to like, like, he sat in on the Steph Curry ruins interview, right?

Like he's been studying these guys and like have a, and he has like this like symmetry with these guys. He's had some access, right? But he like, beg, you weren't here at the time, but I swear when, when Steph came on this pod, this dude had a razor focus. Like, I'm learning everything that I can from him. But also I'm learning everything I can to kick his ass one day or kick or get to this point. And I don't know what Ty's going to be, but he has a lot of lessons right now. And I can't wait to see what he is. Same with Dia, man.

You know I'm fans of your kids. No, I appreciate. I'm super fans of them. I appreciate you bragging on them. I appreciate your dad. But the shine for this segment for me, the one B to obviously Ben Stiller, Kyrie, bro. Like that was pretty dope.

You made a kid's like month probably with that. So I thought that was real. That's tight. Okay, you know, you're always last Howard because you always have the, you know, you know that the way you like to take it for the row of the week. So if you have one, go right ahead. I would have, of course, I'm Ben and I co-signed that one.

But City of San Antonio is my real one of the week. And the fans of San Antonio. Here's why. So first time I've been there for the finals since obviously their last finals, 12 years ago, 2014. And it's not that I'd forgotten this, but it's a good reminder when you land in a final city, especially one that you've been to before. Every final city, every fan base has a little bit of a different vibe. One of the cool things about the Spurs, and it's partially because the way this downtown is built and you've got the river walks. you've got this is an attraction down there's a there's a reason for people to go downtown right but

when you're in san antonio you feel the fucking finals like you feel it you feel the passion of like the fans and how everybody's all in because every single place has signs up they've got like tall buildings where the lighting is the lights in the rooms at night are spelling out go spurs go flags are everywhere on cars and in you know shop windows and whatever and waitresses and waiters are all wearing spurs gear and it dude it is everywhere there are murals on the on the like especially especially you're driving out to the outskirts or murals of like duncan and pop and tony and manu there's there's wemby alien murals like that place freaking lives for this team and i don't mean this as a stray at oklahoma but like i didn't feel it in oklahoma because

okoma's downtown there's nobody lives there i don't want to say that because there's all i didn't want to say it fully on okoma city but i do feel you because i want to say this oama city spambase is incredible especially you know you're at the final I was a fucking, it was mind blowing just like in the building. Almost literally mind blowing because I think my head's going to explode. It's so damn loud in that building. But they're still building that, that perimeter around their downtown. They're still doing that in the way that San Antonio's already historically had.

That is not a slight. It's just you guys are building towards that apparatus around with the new arena and also just the new restaurants around. And the thing is in the case of like Oklahoma and a couple other cities like this where it's like at the time of the game and hours before and after the game and in the parade, in the periphery of the arena, you feel it, but not extend it out. And in San Antonio, it's like, I could not go anywhere. And I didn't stay downtown the whole time either. Like my old buddy, Mike Monroe, shout out to the great Mike Monroe, legendary, former NBA writer, still living in San Antonio.

He took me to like his favorite Mexican joint for breakfast that was more like toward his neighborhood, like just like a little hole in the wall place that the food was out of this world. It was absolutely awesome. But even like it wasn't, so it wasn't just like I was downtown. It was no matter where I went in. town. Everybody's in Spurs. Everybody's talking about the Spurs. And I live in New York where stuff just gets swallowed up, right? Like, I was here for the finals. Obviously, New Yorkers very passionate

about the Knicks before, during and after. There's no question about that. But on a given day, when someone says, well, what's it like in New York during the finals? I'm like, if you're not near the garden or midtown or certain other spots, you might not know what's going on because it's New York and New York just swallows up everything. There's so much going on here. L.A. because it's so spread out. Yeah, you see the Laker flags on cars and stuff like that. San Antonio is just kind of unique in the way it's built, but also obviously the passion of that fan base. Anyway, it was just really enjoyable and really cool. So shout out to Spurs fans. They're going to have a lot of better days ahead of them, I believe. I mean, they've got good days right now, but that team's going to be back.

Yeah, they're good. That's an awesome real ones, though. And I would just add to that, Howard, that, like, I've never been there for a finals, but I've been there for some Western Conference finals and, and and even second round of the playoffs, and they get it cracking. Like, it feels like that for playoffs in general. I'm sure it was amplified even more, but that's one of those cities

that you feel them in the playoffs, leaving hotels walking around. Also, they get it cracking in general. I randomly was on a fucking New Year's Eve in San Antonio because the Warriors just happened to be in San Antonio or New Year's Eve. When I tell you,

and I was at that Weston on the Riverwalk, it was cracked. It was cracking. So shout out San Antonio because they get it cracking. You know when you go to a random city and you're not ready, you're not expecting to have as much fun as you did? You know what I'm talking about? Or you're just like, I'm here. I don't know.

San Antonio, if you know, you know. Okay. That's been another edition of Real Ones. We are back next Thursday. And then we are going to be back down around free agency. So that's why we gave you a little extra time. damn there hour and a half that's why rogers is up for damn there an hour and a half um we will see see you guys next week summer schedule dog we got drop all i'm about i'm about to head all right now

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