The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Primer With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 118)

Episode Date: May 30, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the major story lines heading into the 2017 NBA Finals. Topics include: Steve Kerr's absence on the bench (3:00), the importance of isolation scoring (10:00), the Warriors' defense (19:00), Tristan Thompson's importance (28:00), LeBron James's potential "greatest of all-time" label (34:00), and which is the favorite team for the casual fan (41:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Miller Light is brewed not only for great taste, but to be less filling. It only has 96 calories, so it's not going to fill you up. It's brewed to be enjoyed from tip off to final buzzer. It's the original light beer and has been since they first showed up Courtside in 1975. Today's show is brought to you by the NBA Awards on TNT, live from New York, on Monday night, June 26. The NBA Award show begins at 9 p.m. Eastern will be hosted by Drake. The awards are officially changing this year, and the past NBA awards were announced sporadically once the season ended, but for the first time this year, the awards are going to be presented

in person to the players and recipients in a brand new NBA award show live on TNT. Awards presented include Kia NBA MVP, Coach of the Year, Rookie of the Year, most improved player, defensive player of the year, and much, much more. There's also going to be new awards that the fans have a chance to vote on, like Best Style, Game Winner of the Year, Dunk of the Year, and Assist of the Year. Remember, don't miss out on the NBA Awards on TNT, Live from New York, June 26 at 9 p.m. Eastern. NBA show also brought to you by Seek Geek. The NBA playoffs are here, and Seekek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to your favorite team's games.

With Seat Geek's seamless mobile experience, you can buy and sell tickets in just two taps. Seatgeek helps you find the best seats and the best prices fully guaranteed. There's nothing like being in a stadium for the biggest plays of the year, and Seat Geek will get you closer to the action for a great value. I have the Seat Geek app on my phone. It's by far the easiest way I've found to shop for tickets. I can be anywhere with just a few tabs. I can find seats instantly.

I actually just used Seat Geek to buy concert tickets recently. Seat Geek saves you time and money by searching multiple ticket sites to compare prices and find amazing deals. Plus, every purchase is fully guaranteed. You can shop for tickets on Seat Geek with confidence. And best of all, our listeners get a $20 rebate off their first Seatgeek purchase. To get your $20 rebate on tickets, download the Seat Geek app, go to the Settings tab, add a promo code. Enter the promo code Ringer MBA.

Seat Geek will send you $20 once you made your first ticket purchase. Download the Seat Geek app and enter promo code Ringer NBA today. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor. Kevin. Hey, Chris. So what are we talking about today?

The NBA finals. This break has been entirely too long. It really has. This is driving me insane. Like, all right, just before we get started on this, what have you been watching at night? I'm fascinated by this because for the entire season and then leading into the playoffs, there's virtually no nights off. Like, I'll catch like the hockey games.

Like I flipped on the hockey game last night. Or I'll catch like the hockey games if they're going on. But other than that, I have found myself when the time comes and you get in this routine that lasts for so many months, now that we have been without basketball for, it feels like forever. I know it's really not. What have you been watching? So I got three shows in my rotation right now.

All right. One, the leftovers. Two, last week tonight with John Oliver and three, Fargo. So those are my three shows I watch. Sunday nights are always good with the leftovers and last week tonight, even though leftovers hasn't been really that good the past couple weeks, which is really sad because it's at the end. And then Fargo is unbelievable.

and I recommend everybody watch all three seasons of those shows, including the one happening right now. My dad just told me last... About you, Chris? Yeah, my dad just told me last week that he loved Fargo. He's like, he's like, you got to watch Fargo. It's great. I haven't watched it.

It's really, really good. Like, just watch, even if you just watch, like, season one or just one of the seasons, like, it doesn't matter which one. And you're going to want to watch the rest right afterwards. Like, it's that good of a show. I've either found myself either, like, falling down, YouTube rabbit holes or I've watched like Netflix documentaries. It's about it.

That works. That works. I mean, the nice thing about the day and age we live in is, as Father John Misty said, we have total entertainment forever. We have enough to keep us entertained in the long week between the Eastern Carman's finals and the NBA finals. All right. So it almost feels like the Super Bowl, right, leading up to this because we knew for

for so long that there's probably going to be a collision course, but now because they both made quick work of their opponents in their respective conference finals, we have this week of leading up. Nothing really crazy yet. I mean, you look at the headlines, and it's like, you know, Kevin Love's surprised they're an underdog, or it'll be LeBron. Like one of them is LeBron Is another finals, quote, challenge versus Golden State. I'm like, all right, let's get something salacious. We got to get, Traymond's got to say something crazy or something's got to happen with this. in this week, but we only got a couple more days to make it until the final start on Thursday night.

But nothing really yet, like, there hasn't been anything all that interesting. The biggest news is probably, you know, the news that Steve Kerr is going to be unable to be on the sideline, right? Yeah, I would definitely say that is the biggest news. I mean, I think that was probably the hope that Kerr could come back for the actual series that everybody's been waiting for since July 4 last year. Do you think that it matters? Yeah, I think it matters, Chris.

I think it's impossible to gauge how much it will. How much it could matter could depend on how these games go. I don't necessarily feel one way or the other strongly because I think it's a variable that we can't measure from the outside. I think maybe some of the guys in the locker room can measure that. But for us from the outside, it's really hard to know when every situation I think needs a be looked at individually in a sense. So I think they do, I think they do, you know, lose a little bit of an edge without Kerr. But like the team in the court, that that's what wins the game, you know, in the end, right?

The coach just enhances what happens, like with play calls and decisions and rotations. So, I mean, Kerr's going to be there between games, you know, helping to make adjustments, helping them game plan. He's going to be in there at halftime. So I think they still have that factor. But there's still a little bit of an edge lost during. the game. Right. It's in the course of the game, especially in high pressure situations. And you will see even, I remember earlier this year, maybe it was the Christmas game where Kerr sits down

on the bench and he's sitting there talking to Steph Curry. And like you see the psychology of it all, right? He's really good at that dealing with players, especially when things aren't going well for them at a moment in time. And the other thing is going to be the high pressure situations, It's like the play calling and the pressing the right buttons substitution-wise, right? Big picture, he's clearly going to be able to game plan, right? He's going to be able to watch the games. He's going to be able to help institute a game plan. But it is the who am I subbing now?

When Draymond gets too early fouls, what am I doing? What am I doing when Clay starts 0 for 6? And I've got to talk to him and I've got to get this guy going some way somehow. It's the little stuff that it could show up. But I do, I am kind of dubious to believe that it would change the trajectory of the series with him not being there. I don't want to discount what he brings to the table. Yeah. But will their ultimate goal not be reached because Steve Kerr is unable to be on the sidelines in the end?

I don't believe that. Yeah, I think the other side of it is, it's like with Mike Brown, like our perception is fans, you know, fans that have been watching basketball since the mid-2000s. during LeBron's first stint with Cleveland. Our perception of Mike Brown from like 05 to 14 is that like this guy stinks. So like now suddenly he's the coach of the best team in the world. I think we assume that he still stinks. So therefore he must be worse than who arguably guy who is arguably one of the best coaches in the league and Steve Kerr. So I think our perception of Brown and his last three stops, Cleveland, Lakers, then Cleveland again, does really, I think,

affect how we view how how he'll impact this current team when really i mean look i think brown was a poor head coach like on all three stints but there's still still in new situations and new environments i think a guy can change with a different type of roster and let's be real here let's be totally real chris like this team this roster i don't think you have to be a genius to coach this team i don't i think this warrior's team they could they could win games with any of their assistance as the head coach. I think Steve Kerr is the best coach of them all. Like you said, don't want to knock who he is and what he does

because there's so many things that we can't measure. But look, I mean, this team is going to win the finals because of their roster, if they're going to win the finals, it's because the roster, not because the guy who's, you know, wearing the suit on the sidelines. Well, let's remember. They said a record for NBA wins last year, and Luke Walton was on the sidelines for a good portion of that.

Yep. Yeah, rookie head coach. Right. And he had like the greatest record ever winning percentage-wise. So the idea that, right, and Andy got a hell of a gig out of the whole deal, right? Did those wins go to him? Or do those wins go to Steve Kerr? I think those wins went to Steve Kerr, if I remember correctly.

No, they did. They did. But if we were just to assign Luke Walton, hey, hell, he needs those wins after he's going to be coaching the Lakers for a couple of years. Oh, my goodness, I know. lest they get lucky this summer. Those would be nice to have in the bank, though. Yes. You're definitely going to need them for after,

even just after last year you're going to need them. Yeah. It's going to be hard to get back to 500 when you're Luke Walton after you take a couple seasons of, you know, 50, 60 losses. That's not an easy deal. And maybe, you know what? Might get back pretty quickly depending on what happens this summer and next summer. We'll see that.

Oh, for sure. For sure. No, I would be surprised that the Lakers aren't good within two years. I agree. I'm with you. They might be good next year. They'll still be super young. But, I mean, I don't think there'll be a piece of crap is what I mean. They won't be able to take down the warriors, but they'll be able to compete possibly. That's for sure. You wrote an article talking about this finals.

And explain to me how you think isolation is going to be that the article is isolation basketball will define these NBA finals. Walk me through this. So basically, Chris, so today's NBA, right, like ball movement and shooting and, you know, motion, on ball and off ball motion are like really the hallmarks of the game today. Like that's what's going to define this error. Like when we look back as, you know, the ball movement, you know, error, the three point shooting explosion, right? That's what we're going to think about. However, at the end of games, when the clock, you know, is ticking down and the defense really locks in late in the fourth quarter and an over. time, a lot of teams and players just turn the clock back because suddenly the isolation,

the classic isolation one-on-one at the top of the key, becomes really the best play available. And I think sometimes we almost forget that with the way today's game has evolved, but the isolation and the one-on-one still matters in those biggest moments. You look back at the finals last year. Think about that the shot by Kyrie Irving. Then on the other end, Kevin Love getting the stop on Stefan Curry. Both those plays were ISOs. So I think we're going to see those moments in this year's finals again, just like we have in every single finals really in history,

as long as these games are close at the end. If they're close, we're going to have moments where Curry or Duran are isoed at the top of the key. We're going to have LeBron on a switch against a smaller guy. We're going to have Kyrie Irving, you know, isoed on the right wing again against Stephen. and Curry needing to hit a big three. Like, we're going to have those moments, and the point is really is that shot making, go-to-scoring, it's still really the best, most important, hardest to find skill in the NBA.

Like, those are the guys who win you championships or win you big playoff games, or even for that matter, they're the guys who win you big, close regular season games, too. Those are the guys that are the hardest to find, but they're also the most important in the biggest moments. And you've got two of these guys that are, that are, that are. on these teams, both Kyrie and Love, or I'm sorry, Kyrie and LeBron, and then Curry and Durant. And they are totally, throw the ball, they can get you a bucket. Not as much on the third guy, which is throw the ball to Clay, throw the ball to Kevin

Love. Now, these guys are both outstanding players, but usually their buckets are more assisted, right, than the others, than the others. Yes. And that will be the interesting thing. Especially in this offense. Do you, how much do you put in? you're starting to hear a lot of this now that those two great players on either team could

theoretically, I don't want to say end up in a wash, but they could neutralize each other or at least put up similar point totals, right? And that it's going to come down to that third wheel, either Clay Thompson or Kevin Love, do you buy that? And fascinatingly enough, those guys almost got traded for each other once upon a time. You know, Chris, I think the top three guys, top three guys on both teams are, you know, they're not necessarily a wash totally, but it's pretty close. It's close to a wash. I think where the difference in the series is and why the Warriors are such heavy favorites is that four to seven range. Those next guys that are going to play at the end of the starting five, you know, guys who come off the bench, the four to eight range, four to nine, however deep into the bench you want to go, that's where the Warriors have an edge. And I think between the top three, both of them are pretty close to equal. It's not as exact.

I think you could arguably, I don't know, you could make an argument either way. And I think that kind of makes the point here is that they're close in the top three. It's everybody else after that that I think could be major X factors. But in fairness, love was awesome in the Boston series and has been good throughout the playoffs. Clay really hasn't gotten it going yet. It feels like Golden State, in order for them to fulfill destiny, and, I mean, they are a prohibitive favorite in this. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're going to get home court advantage. But it does feel like Clay Thompson has got to be really good in this series.

They've gotten by. He has not really gotten it going. He has not had a very good playoffs. And it's been kind of odd. But I don't think, I think that you will get some Cleveland wins or you will get. get a much more competitive series if Clay Thompson is a Clay Thompson he has been so far. I really believe that. Because you've got to score a lot of points in this one.

For sure. Both these teams are going to score a lot. I think with Clay, Chris, you know, the odd thing is, is he's had stints like this before where he just can't, you know, find the basket at all. And I wonder if it just comes back to some shooters. Sometimes they're just streaky. They have streaks where they just can't shoot the damn ball. And maybe for Clay, he's about to enter a stretch where he can't stop missing.

And if you're Cleveland, that's worrisome because with three-point shooters, a lot of their make-miss success really is simply due to make or miss. Like, no matter how you can test the shot, it doesn't affect the percentage. And I think Clay Thompson is safe to say he is one of those guys at the elite level shooter shooting ability that he has. So I do think it's possible, you know, Chris, that, you know, he still. continues his slide, continues the streaky shooting. But at the same time, man,

I'd be fearful that he's about to just tear it apart. A couple other numbers that I wanted to run by you. All right, so the Cavaliers throughout the course of these playoffs have scored 120.7 points per 100 possessions. That is the highest mark in the last

40 years. They have a 59.8. 59.8% that's the highest effective field goal percentage ever. So they have the highest effective field goal percentage ever and their offensive rating is the best of any team in the last 40 years. Do you think that that is more a reflection of how devastating they are offensively or is it more a reflection of the opponents they have faced thus far?

I think it's both, Chris. I think I know that's kind of, you know, picking aside, but I do think it's both. it's it's the fact that lebron james and kairi irving are just absolutely unbelievable i mean they have just been they they look like the two best players ever like just watching them play like if you didn't know anything about basketball you think these guys these guys are the best ever right and i think lebron you know maybe he is and then carrie irving boy he's been something else in these playoffs um so i think i think it's a reflection of them but i think it is to an extent a reflection of the opponents um but at the same time man like

I know that there was two sweeps in the first two rounds, and then Celtics only managed somehow to stole a game when Marcus Smart just miraculously went off. So look, it's not like those teams weren't playing hard. It's just, you know, the Pacer's defense wasn't good. Toronto's offense wasn't good enough. And Boston lost Isaiah Thomas, and they just weren't good enough offensively either.

So I think it's a little bit of both where the opponent wasn't strong, whether it was one way or the other, or just the fact that, dude, like, LeBron and Kyrie are just lights out. They're unbelievable. And then Kevin Love has been, too. So got to mention Kevin Love, his incredible play as well. So they're just really firing on all cylinders. Here's the other thing about how great they've been offensively.

They've got the second highest free throw rate. And we know that is going to be incredibly important in this Warrior series because what you want to do is be able to play as much half-court basketball as you can against them. Right. Keep them out of transition. Keep them out of trail. And I do think that that is a big number. If they can keep going to the line at this excessive rate that they have gone to the line, I mean, I think it's something to really watch out for because the more you can see Cleveland going to the free throw line and then being able to set up their defense. Their defense, I kind of feel like in the half court they can get by. It's where you get them out and running and you get these cross. matches and you and I feel their transition defense is miserable but if they're so good offensively and they keep scoring baskets and they keep going to the free throw line as much as they have

they're going to get to play in the half court a lot and I think that is I'm starting to talk myself into Cleveland being able to be really competitive in this thing and maybe it's just too long of a break too much reading about all this stuff and in the end I'll I'll watch the games play out and I'll be like, God, what am I, what was I thinking, right? We had a pretty big sample size of them not being that great defensively. We had a pretty big sample size of them not being a devastatingly awesome team. And yeah, they've played these teams in the playoffs and they've wiped the floor with them. But these teams really aren't that good. They're not. These were not great teams that they were playing against. And so now they're having to play.

maybe one of the greatest teams we've ever seen. I don't know. This is what happens when you got so much time off, Kevin. I feel like we do this with the Super Bowl. We do this, anything that we've got way too long to analyze. But I will tell you, I'm starting to talk myself into Cleveland being really competitive because of all these numbers. I think, you know, the point you touched on, Chris, in terms of transition offense,

that kind of, you know, alludes back to the isolation article I wrote on the ringer, just the fact that in the playoffs, those transition opportunities really, you know, just decline. Like, you don't get as many of them, especially late in games. And, like, you know, as I'm talking here, I'm trying to pull up some of the same numbers for the finals last year. Because I'm curious to see, like, what was Golden States' transition offense frequency in the first three quarters compared to the fourth quarter and overtime against Cleveland? Because I would guarantee that it's probably maybe not a significant. drop-off, but I would assume that there's at least a little bit of a drop-off late in those games. Because look, that's what happens oftentimes is, you know, when the game slows down,

you're not able to rely on your transition chances. And transition chances are always good to have. They are always valuable because they tend to always lead to either either open three or lay-up. So I think in that sense, certainly if Cleveland's able to continue getting to the line, it slows the game down. It limits transition opportunity. and that could be big for them. I think, you know, it'll be fascinating to see Cleveland continuing to, or attempting to continue to play that same, like, Mori Ball style that they have these entire playoffs.

Like, it's amazing. Like, I've seen, you know, guys, guy like Howard Beck has tweeted out, LeBron's shooting chart where it's like all threes and all layups. Like, there's nothing for mid-range. And that's unusual because the way LeBron used to play in the past is there's a lot of mid-range. There's a lot of settling for two-point jumpers. and now he's threes and layups and he's drawing files and getting to the free throw line.

Like he's scoring in the most efficient zones at the highest of levels. And Kyrie is doing the same thing to an extent too. So it'll be fascinating to see that style of play in the finals this year as well. On the other hand, Golden State is, they've been fantastic defensively. They've given up 99 points per 100 possessions thus far. They had faced teams that were really good offensively during the year, but clearly were down guys. The numbers for Portland were good, especially after the NERCITJ acquisition. San Antonio shell of themselves offensively, obviously, when Kauai Leonard went down.

But how big, how much do you buy into Golden State is a great, great defensive team? A lot. I buy into it a lot, Chris. And I think with Golden State, like we talk so much about their offense that sometimes, I mean, we forget about their defenses, maybe better. than their offense even is, which is, I think, saying a lot. And that's where the edges, that's where the edges in this series, Chris, it's on the defensive end of the floor where Cleveland has a lot of holes. They have a lot of guys that you can pick on.

You know, we're going to talk a lot about how these defenses are switching screens and trying to find the best available matchup. But the thing is, is like, Cleveland has guys that I think you can really exploit, whereas Golden State doesn't have many holes on that end of the floor. So look, like that that's an advantage in Golden State's favor that I think like you can try to find that matchup against Corvert. You can try to find Darren Williams. You can try to find those dudes. Whereas with Golden State, there's not a lot of them.

I mean, they're deep with quality defenders, especially when they put out their best defense first lineups out there. So look, man, like that's where Golden State really has an edge this year. And Kevin Durant has really been terrific the whole season defensively. Like forget his offense. Like his defense has been really, really, really good. And look, they still have the defensive player of the year in Draymond Green on their team. And no under no no overlooking what he can do on the end of the floor. We talk about their offense.

We mentioned their big three on offense, but they have, they have the LeBron of defense on their team in Draymond Green. So what we have here is we've got a team that was, as I mentioned, the highest postseason mark in the last 40 years. And that's why I was asking you about because they've been, they've been. been 10 points better per 100 possessions in the playoffs than they were during the regular season. And then I talked about the effective field goal percentage, how it's just amazing. I've talked about the free throw

rate, which is just amazing. They've played teams that were ranked 8th, 12th, and 16th defensively this year. Those are the ones that they have played. Right? And that's what I'm saying. Is this one of these, yeah,

this team, this Golden State team is, can be, And certainly the numbers are there to prove it, elite defensively. But this Cleveland deal, it's just a different level. When you're talking about, I mean, listen, that's a lot of teams, Kev, that have played basketball for the last 40 years, a lot of playoff teams. And they've been better offensively than any of them, any of them. Think about all the amazing teams that we have had throughout the last 40 years in the NBA.

And their offensive rating is the highest. So all I'm saying is, Golden State better be amazing defensively. because what they're facing is something that hasn't been seen. And the other thing I slide to is there's been a lot of, right, like, A, there have been a lot of great teams, but B, there's been all manner of competition. So I do think that there is a, it's certainly a combination of who they have played against, but the number is the number, man, right? There's been a lot of great teams that have played all manner of competition,

and nobody's put up the offensive numbers in the last 40 years like Cleveland has so far. I mean, well, they have the guy who through his 32nd birthday is probably the greatest at age 32. I think, you know, Michael Jordan is still the best, you know, today. I'm not going to argue that, but I think through age 32, I fail to see how there's been a guy who has been more dominant in more categories, more areas of the game than LeBron James. You know, dominant scorer, dominant passer, dominant rebounder, dominant defender when he wants to be. The dude literally does it all. And, I mean, you talk about that number and I just keep thinking about LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. I mean, they have potentially the goat.

And in that sense, it's very surprising that, like, they have the best O rating ever for the stat you mentioned. But at the same time, like, they get potentially the goat, too, right? So I think there would be a strong correlation with, well, actually, I'm curious, Chris. This just came to mind. Like, do you have, like, the numbers for, like, the other, like, top two, three, four or five teams? The offensive rating through the playoffs? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what's crazy? Try to get. So Cleveland and Golden State are one and two this year, okay? With one, I told you, Cleveland's 120.7. Golden State is 115.8. Of all the teams that played in the playoffs. Who do you think had the third highest offensive rating? Hmm.

Of any playoff team this year, no matter the amount of games. And the people that are out there listening to this podcast. So it could have been like a first round sweep. Like, so it could have been, I'm not going to say Memphis because like Memphis would be like, you would be like setting me up for that. So it could be Memphis. No. It's not.

How about the spurs, maybe spurs? They're fourth. Okay. And I will tell you the Celtics are fifth. Celtics. Okay, so it has to be either Memphis or Indiana. One of those two. It has to be one of them.

Because Indiana scored a lot of points in the opening around. It is Indiana. I don't think it's Houston. It is Indiana. Okay, wow. Their defensive rating must be like the worst, right? 115. Okay.

But that's pretty wild. And by the way, they did play against the kids. Yeah, you know. Yeah, they scored, man. They put up points. Cavaliers defense was a shit show at that time, and still, you know, you could argue it still might be to an extent. But especially in the first round of the playoffs, they were not clicking at all on the

offensive end. I think they've been a lot better against Toronto and Boston. But, you know, at the same time, Chris, like looking ahead at the finals, LeBron's not going to be able to just, like, float around and, you know, on defense, there's nowhere for him to hide. He can't hide on a Harrison Barnes in the corner. There's nobody for him to do that on now. And I think, like, from right out of the gates, like, they're going to need to defend.

They can't do what they did in last year's finals. Kyrie Irving is going to need to commit to playing both ends of the floor like he did in games five, six, seven last year. Because, look, like, he can defend. Like, he's a bad defender, a quote-unquote bad defender. But when he wants to defend, he can. And, like, they're going to need that right out of the gate, game one. LeBron's going to need to be locked in at the highest level, and Kyrie Irving's going to need to be two.

And for whatever reason, Chris, like you mentioned talking yourself into Cleveland. Like, for whatever reason, I just had a feeling they're going to be locked in right away. I just do. I just get the sense from the team. You hear the things they say in the locker room during the Boston series, the way they've been talking this week leading up to the finals. I just get the sense that they know that they can't take it easy these first four games on defense. They have to be just playing at their highest level on that end of the floor in order to have a chance.

Because this offense for Golden State, like, they will kill you. Like if you take possessions off. And Cleveland can't have that. They can't get off to some of those bad starts that they had in these playoffs. Is it possible that in terms of guys that are actually under the basket that Tristan Thompson is the best big in the series? I guess we'd have to leave. I mean, Draymond's obviously the best, right? Drayman's the best.

And he does play under the basket, and he does collect a ton of rebounds. But in terms of your, quote, traditional big guys, right? Is it possible that Thompson just annihilates Javall McGee and David West and Zaza Pachulia and whoever is thrown out there? Like, I do kind of feel like Thompson could, he could be really good. The archetype that Thompson struggles with is the guy that can push him around, right? The guy that gets super physical with him and push him around. And it doesn't feel like Golden State really has that. And it feels like Draymond's going to spend a tremendous amount of time on LeBron, I would imagine.

Right. So you're talking about just around the basket. It feels like Thompson could have a good series. Yeah. So I think if I'm Cleveland, I'm trying to pull Dreherstallon. Ramon out of the paint. You mentioned like allowing Thompson to really flourish inside. You know, in terms of the offensive boards, you know, bring Draymond Green out on the perimeter, have him defend LeBron James, whether it's through a switch screen or maybe he starts the possession on him too. But if you do that and, you know, Tristan Thompson is just roaming inside with a little guy on him or even just a smaller wing or forward, he's going to be a vacuum on the boards, man. And he's a vacuum anyway. Like it doesn't matter. Really, who's down there? Thompson is an incredible rebounder. And I tweeted this during the Celtic series, like against Boston, he is Dennis Rodman. I don't think he's Dennis Rodman against the Warriors necessarily, but he is still a dominant rebounding force. And there's no denying how that can, you know, kind of tip the scales a little bit in Cleveland's favor. So I think you are touching on kind of an X-factor here, Chris, in the sense that nobody on that team can rebound like Thompson can. Like his instincts, his leaping ability are really unmatchable in the series.

So I think if he's able to swallow up offensive boards and eliminate second-chance opportunities for Golden State, it's huge. Like it's undeniably huge. All right, Kevin, we've got to take a quick pause to get a word from our sponsor. Today's podcast brought to you by ZipRecruiter. It's the playoff season and having the right players on the court will be the key to success. That sharp outside shooter or power rebounder can be the difference between winning and losing.

Business isn't any different. Your company needs the right people. to be the best. So where do you find top talent? You can't find all the best candidates by posting your job just on one site. You need to post all, you need to post on all the top job sites. And now you can't with ZipRecruiter. At ZipRecruiter.com, you can post your job to 100 plus job sites in one click. Then their powerful technology efficiently matches the right people to your position. That's why ZipRecruiter is different. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. them. In fact, over 80% of the jobs posted on ZipRecruiter get a qualified candidate in just 24 hours.

No more juggling emails or calls in the office. And right now, my listeners can start forming their own winning team on ZipRecruiter for free. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer. That's ziprecruiter.com slash ringer. Try it for free today at ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer. So right now, the Warriors are minus 255 to win the series. They are, and then if you wanted to bet, so you'd have to lay $255 to win 100. On the flip side, if you took Cleveland, you would be plus 205. So you put down 100, you'd win double your money. In terms of the exact series result, the most likely series result are the lowest odds

are Warriors win 4 to 1. That's plus 220. And you know what? What's strange about this? So the Warriors winning 4 to 1 is the most likely scenario, according to Vegas. The second most likely to scenario, at least in terms of the odds, is Warriors winning 4 to 3. That's plus 250. So we got 100 bucks, and I'm going to tell you, you could put $100 on either of those.

Either Warriors win 4-1 or Warriors win. 4-3. Which do you think, now I'm telling you, Vegas says it's more likely that it's 4-1 than 4-3, but those are the two favorites for the way this series goes. Which of those in your mind is more likely? That the Warriors win in seven or the Warriors win in five? Seven. What about you, Chris?

I think so, too. I will be surprised if there's not a game six in Cleveland. I really will. I do not think the Warriors. Warriors. I told you, I'm talking myself into Cleveland being really competitive with them. And it's the LeBron thing. In fact, let's talk about him. He's the Miller Light holds true player of the week. And we have not touched on this whole Jordan stuff, right? Now, that is, I know it's a 24-hour news cycle and now everybody under the sun has been debating this, right?

Let me just say my piece on this. I am one of those that I'm a Jordan guy and I'm the kind that gets defensive about it, right? And part of that is I get nostalgic about it because that is my youth. That being said, I will freely admit, if LeBron pulls this off, I do think the conversation has to be had. Because he will then have beat that team that won 73 games last year and then turned around and that same team that added Kevin Durant. If he pulls this off and wins

this, and that's the opponent that he has beaten two years in a row, like at that point, I think that with this series, it becomes, now because all of this can look foolish, and there

will be a lot of people hoping that he fails and a lot of people, especially the Jordan lovers, you know, if he fails, like, ha, see, you know, stop with all this Jordan crap. He can't even do this. He can't even do that, right? But if he wins this, Kevin, I mean, I will admit, like, that whole greatest of all time has got to be very seriously revisited because I think this level of opponent, if he pulls this off, this would be his greatest accomplishment.

I believe that. So Chris, I agree that, you know, this would be his greatest accomplishment against this team. I mean, this is arguably the greatest team ever put on paper that they're about to go against. So I think in that sense, like that's definitely going to ramp up the conversation if the Cavaliers win it. So, okay, here's, so I was at, you know, a little Memorial Day get together over the weekend with some, you know, long time high school friends. Shout out to them. And let me give you, like, the kind of the thought here of someone in the, mid to late 20s range, okay?

Like, this is the way we look at it. You know, we talked a lot about this the other day. Well, LeBron James, right? He's 32 in the middle of his career, and we're already having this conversation, right? And from our perception, right, we fail to understand how somebody could have been such a dominant force in every single category. I said this a little bit earlier in the podcast, but Michael Jordan dominant scorer, and he had moments in finals where he'd don't.

dominated passing the ball too. But if we're talking about dominating every single category like LeBron James, I, we didn't get the full Michael Jordan experience watching him night in, night out. But man, LeBron James dominant passing, rebounding, assist, defending. I mean, do you think about some of the moments he's had to chase down blocks? I just fail to understand how somebody could have been such a dominant force in every category. of the game at his age level, just 32, and we're already having the conversation. He could have another eight years of this.

Like Richard Jefferson said, after he broke Jordan's all-time playoff scoring record, when it's all said and done, like he might have 10 finals appearances on his record. He could have eight more years straight of going to the finals after this, depending on how long he lasts. Not to mention the fact that Jordan played 15 years in his career and his career in LeBron just wrapped up his 14th and he's only 32. Like there's a lot of time left and we're already having a legitimate debate. So I think right now you can say, yeah, Jordan's the best.

But my thought is like eight years from now, if LeBron continues doing this, like there will be no debate. I don't think there will be if he continues doing this. The real question is through age 32, who's the greatest? And that's where you have a real argument. But if LeBron keeps this up, man, dominating every single facet of the game, I just don't see how anybody else could. could have been better even like if you didn't live through that error.

I just I just failed to see how anybody could be have been better, more dominant and more categories on LeBron James. It's interesting because one of the things I was thinking about this weekend is the whole idea that you when you were Jordan like there is a legend that can grow like everything you did was not debated every single day like everything about the media and there was no social media and everything that everything that took place in Michael Jordan's career was not dissected in the same manner, right? Yes.

It's just, it's a totally different world that LeBron is living in and a level of dissection that he is living in. It's almost like that era with Jordan is the last where you could really have. You know, it's almost like the legend grows. It's things like when, when your dad tells you about growing up and watching Mickey Mantle or even, you know, somebody older than that could talk about watching a Joe DiMaggio or going all the way back and they could talk about how these great players were. Now, it is a little different. Jordan, we got videos of all of it.

But in terms of there weren't debate shows and there weren't podcasts like this where you're talking about it all the time. And it's just, it's weird because I heard Bill and Closterman talking about this and it was one of the things, he said, I believe, was, like, this whole idea that it just became Michael Jordan's the greatest of all time, okay? And who was considered that prior to? Like, I don't even remember. I'm serious. Like, was there a general consensus of who the greatest basketball player of all time was prior to, prior to that? It's almost like he came along and it just became, and now Jordan is the greatest of all time and he'll always be the greatest of all time and nobody's ever going to be greater than Michael Jordan and now we're starting to have the LeBron thing but I wonder like who if you just

walked around was there a general consensus on who the greatest player was like was a Kareem I don't know I really know I think I think a lot of people would say it was Bill Russell I think so I'm sure you saw that Rob Parker video right the other day Chris no okay you didn't see the Rob Parker video? Rob Parker? You watch that. Yeah, Rob Parker went on the rant on Fox Sports, talking about how LeBron James is going to leave the NBA in shambles.

What? The quote on the tweet is like, this is what got everybody talking. Rob Parker said, ultimately, when LeBron leaves the NBA, he will have left it in ruins and has not elevated the game. Okay? What is? And so one of the things he said on there, Chris, I just want to talk about real briefly.

In ruins? He said when you look at George, in ruins, yeah. What is it? In ruins. So one of the things he said is that LeBron James has enabled players to say, it's okay to have take nights off. I'm only going to play 74 games. And he says with Jordan, you look at his games played, it's 82, 82.

He played full seasons. And I'm like, you know what I see? I see did not play minor league baseball, Birmingham Barron's. I see did not play retired, did not. play retired, did not play retired. I see that he took four and a half years off in the middle of his career. So if we're talking about LeBron James taking games off, nights off, it's because he's not taken years off.

That's why. So I think it's a ridiculous thing for Rob Parker to say, Michael Jordan gets an edge because he's playing 82 games. It's like, dude, he took four to half years of playing basketball off. What are you talking about, dude? What are you talking about? Wait, he said he's going to leave the league. ruin, huh?

Yeah. Like it's a catastrophe. Ridiculous. Like a natural disaster. Unbelievable. Like I see, like, when I think of that word, I think of like one of these disaster movies and then they'll show like, you know, the one like, right? The one like blade of grass that's like whipping in the wind.

And you've seen like where like this used to be civilization, but now it's all gone. That's what, that's what LeBron's doing to the league. Who knew? All LeBron's going to leave in ruins when it's all said and done is just the mere thought that Michael Jordan is the greatest ever. That's all. It's very possible that's what could happen. Eight years from now, if LeBron continues dominating, and he's got seven titles on his resume, and he's got all the playoff records, he beats Magic Johnson's all-time assist record, beats all these records in the playoffs. There'll be no doubt.

Like, it'll be unbreakable. LeBron James, as long as, you know, our world will still think. thriving centuries from now. LeBron James will still be at the top of the list because so many of those records are going to be completely unbreakable and there will be no doubt in eight years, 10 years, however long LeBron lasts that he is

perhaps the goat. That's what's going to be left in ruins is the thought that anybody else is. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, people will know it's LeBron and I think there's a real possibility that, and as long as he stays healthy, as long as he stays healthy, man. But you would agree

that it would be if he won this one. If he gets wiped out on this one, that conversation's not going to be very relevant. I mean, that's, right? But the thing is, it's like, so, so like with the 90s, right? Like, there's that picture. I saw this posted on Reddit the other day, and I can't think of the name, but it's like a picture of Michael Jordan sitting in a room with, like, the pictures of people that

he defeated in the playoffs and, like, prevented them from ever winning a ring. And I think you can't say like Charles Barkley's legacy is anywhere, or Carl Malone's legacy is anywhere, it's an individual player for their own individual talents, because they just happen to go against the superpower and Michael Jordan. With the brawn, I don't think it necessarily diminishes his legacy at all because he went against a superpower team in the Golden State Warriors, right? So I think it hurts.

I think it hurts in the sense that it's not helping, but I don't think the mere act of losing. diminishes his legacy. I just think that there's only more to gain. Like, the dude's been the seven straight NBA files, man. Yeah, but the thing is, Kevin, much like you were talking about with that pitcher, it's like, you know, if he was there and he was in his prime, nobody else was winning. And when he walked away, Elijah won got his.

Like, who is to say Elijah won doesn't have six titles if Michael Jordan doesn't exist? You know what I'm saying? Like, again, he might not. But I'm just saying he prevented all of those guys. And if he was around, he was the big dog and his team won. End of story. And Elijah, I may not have titles. Now, I know that you could go back and you could debate,

maybe they don't win all of those in a row with the Bulls. But he won them, and then he walked off and somebody else won them. And then the second he walked back in, he won them again. Like, you couldn't win with them around. And that's the difference, right? There's going to be a lot of people that have rings. under LeBron's watch or on LeBron's watch. A lot.

If someone wants to see the picture we're talking about, it's search for Michael Jordan's stolen generation. It's a really cool photo. And I think maybe someday we'll see one of LeBron like that as well. Maybe so. Maybe with Kevin Durant's face on the wall. Oh, God. Would that diminish Kevin Durant's legacy, would it?

A hundred. Yes. A little bit. Of course it would. Okay, so look, Chris, like, so we argued before about, like, championship. I said championships are like all I care about, like their most important thing. But like so, but at the same time, like, you feel like it would diminish an individual players legacy.

Absolutely. If Kevin Durant signed up to go play for this Warriors team and he doesn't win a title, yes. It absolutely, yes. Dude, do you know how funny that would be? I think with Durant is fair because of the team. But I think for guys like Carl Malone, like John Stockton, Gary Payton, Charles Barkley, I'm just listing off some of the guys on that wall in this Jordan picture. Patrick Ewing, I don't think it necessarily applies to them.

But for this Warriors team, I do think they're unique in the sense that they are the greatest team ever put on paper. Do you know how funny that would be if Kevin Durant signed up to go play for the Warriors and then didn't win? I mean, come on. What? It would be comical. It would be comical. Again, they now, this year, I do wonder, it's always been, like, LeBron's always been Goliath.

There's nothing underdog about him. He's the biggest. He's the strongest. He's the fastest. He's the best. And this is like, he's like a legit underdog. And I do wonder across the country if this is now, right? Like, the warriors are, they became, like, they were a fun, run and gun.

Everybody enjoyed watching them play, and you might hate Dremont, but generally they had likable characters on their team, right? Curry is as likable as it gets, and Clay Thompson's rather likable, and Iguodal is pretty likable, and their coach was really gregarious, and everybody liked Steve Kerr. And so there wasn't a lot to hate about the Warriors, whereas now I do wonder if there's going to be a lot of resentment. Do you think generally, your general NBA fan, right? do you think that they want the warriors to lose? We all resented the hell out of it. Like, I'll never forget, right, last July. When that news came across the wire that Kevin Durant was going there,

uniformly we all went, oh, this is stupid, right? Come on. Right, like, you know, this isn't nearly as fun. And it was not well received. Just in terms of people that love basketball, Do you think your average NBA fan will be rooting against the Warriors winning this? Yes, 100%. I think they're hated in that sense that, you know, I think people love to hate the Golden State Warriors now after Kevin Durant went there.

So yes, I do think people are going to be rooting for LeBron. Just from reading Reddit, Real GM, I get the impression that there's a vibe that people are pulling for LeBron. Because he's not an underdog, like you said, Chris, but in this series, he is the underdog. underdog and I think people are pulling for LeBron here. Well, obviously, we'll be talking about the finals as they go on finally get started on Thursday night. What do you writing about before the finals started? What are you writing about? What are you writing about for tomorrow or Thursday yet? But I do have the isolation article up on the ringer.com.

And we have a lot of good contents up there today focusing on finals previews, stuff from Charks, stuff from Shea Serrano. We get a lot of finals content up there for you all to check. out. Dig it. Check it out at the ringer.com. Also, Kevin O'Connor and Charks and Danny Chower updating their NBA draft stuff all the time on the ringer and check out that podcast. If you missed it yesterday, it came out on Memorial Day, high upside with Kevin and Charks as they are covering the NBA draft every week leading up to the draft. Kevin, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, brother. See you, Chris. Enjoy the finals. I'll try. It's going to do it for another

Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, give us a rating and review on iTunes and We will talk to you on Thursday.