The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Reactions and Shaedon Sharpe Projections | Upside High

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks begin the pod by sharing their reactions to the NBA Finals. They then do a deep evaluation of rising NBA prospect Shaedon Sharpe, including his draft status, possible team destinations, and comps with current NBA players and other potential rookies, particularly Jaden Ivey (7:30). Hosts: Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Basketball predictably is very good. And what a time of the year to be a basketball fan. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of stuff going on. And there's nobody that I would rather talk about it with than the Texas Titan of basketball. basketball thinking the sharpest mind in the in the southwest, southwest, sort of southwest. Dallas's own Jonathan Charks. John, how are you doing, buddy? Yeah, we are the Southwest for sure. I mean, I think Texas claims that. You're kind of in the middle, right? But I guess you guys kind of claim the middle and the west. It's both. It's a big state. Really, it's just Texas is something. But like Southwest Airlines based in Texas and all that. Southwurst, right? That's your favorite airline, right? You've told me that in the past. Shout out companion pass.

Well, how are you been feeling, man? Give us, give us an update. good. I've been enjoying the finals. It's been fun doing little finals, little draft stuff. Yeah. What's your kind of general vibe on the before we get into the draft stuff? I mean, the finals are, I don't know, somewhat important, somewhat important to like what this is all about and contextualize it, I guess. What's your general read on the finals? And has it changed at all? I mean, somewhat important to the ringer, right, and various personalities associated with the ringer. So we're recording this on a Wednesday morning, game three, will be tonight. I like Boston coming in. I think the key for me is going to be is Jalen Brown.

I think as Brown goes, the Celtics going to go in the series. And you look at so game one, Brown was 10 for 23 with five assists. They win pretty comfortably. Game two, Brown was five for 17. They lose. And the big adjustment was they had Clay Thompson on Jalen Brown in game one. and I remember thinking, I don't think that matchup can work. So they switched Draymond Green to Brown in game two. I thought that was the big adjustment. And that's all I'll be watching tonight is can Brown get going against Draymond's? And I think as that matchup goes, the series will go.

Do you think that quickly too on this, you mentioned something about how they were the warriors, this was over the phone, but you mentioned how the warriors were going to kind of like with their veteranness and just the way that they played that they were going to maybe switch. to mucking it up a little bit, using their kind of veteran dark arts. Do you still believe that? And is there enough of that? Like if the teams played straight up, you know, if the teams play straight up and there's none of that stuff present in the games, like you said on paper, Boston really projects favorably. And that played out. I mean, I think the way they played Horford, too, in game two, was really critical. They didn't really

just like let him play off the catch with no pressure at all. Can the Warriors play straight up and how much of that veteran kind of griftiness is going to work, do you think? I mean, I think that's what makes the series kind of compelling is it's like it really feels like a generational battle in a way. Like, I was telling you kind of reminded me of Mavs heat back in the day where the Mazz played so much zone. And it was like a YMCA game. Like, we can't beat you running and gunning.

We've got to slow it down, muck it up, and out-execute you. Kind of feels like that for Golden State. It was funny. Before game two, I was watching Cars 3. with my son. Have you seen Cars 3? Well, around our house, it's the Cars. Cars 3. I wanted to give you, we'll go ahead and make your point about Cars. I have a couple quick Cars takes that I didn't have in the past, but you go ahead first. We call it the Kyes. We go, Kyes, the Kyes. Well, Cars 3 is all about how Lightning and McQueen, it's like the last Cars movie. He's much older now, and there's a whole new

generation of race cars on the track. Jackson Storm. And he has to like learn how to compete with a whole new, like these people who grew up watching lightning, and now they've kind of gone past lightning, like Jackson Storm. Yeah. And then I remember watching that and then watching the game. And I'm like, man, Clay is Lightning and the Queen right now. All these young cars are just zooming by them. He's got to figure out a whole new way to play.

He's got to go to the beach and train with Cruz Ramirez and all that stuff. I was going to say, yeah, I was going to say cars won, tolerable. I enjoy it. It's fine, you know, like we can get through it. It's an interesting story. Cars 2 just goes totally off the rail. Yeah, that's ridiculous. What in the world is going on?

Like from the first frame, they were just like, here's a totally different premise. And then what's really strange to me at the end of Cars 2 is they go into this like big oil lecture at the end. Have you ever paid attention? It's like so how did it get through all the eyes? There's at one point a character pointedly says that's big oil for you. I was like in no Disney movie in history has that ever happened. It was like very Fern Gully. We're going to pound you over the head with a mallet with this agenda.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with it there. I'm just saying no comment there. But it's like really, really a ridiculous movie. But they redeem themselves with Cars 3 for sure. And I agree. That's been kind of a theme of the playoffs in general. Like we talked about how like the generation, there was that one weekend where it felt like the generation gap shifted.

I think it was in the first round. But yeah, I'm trying to think it's weird to be in this position with the war. where they in the past have been the, we're gonna dance around you, Muhammad Ali type opponent where they were like, we're gonna be able to look pretty and still kick your ass. And for them to be in this situation where they're gonna have to go to the other methods

of like things that we just haven't expected from them in the past. You know, like the calves in 2015 and we're able to do all that stuff and kind of get under the warrior's skin and make it ugly. But the warriors now are kind of having to resort to some of those things. Yeah, it actually kind of reminds me a bit of the Warrior Thunder series in 2016. When like the Thunder were the more athletic team.

And that's when you kind of saw Draymond just pull out all the stops to like kind of junk up the game to win. And then in game two, you know, he's like, he literally tackled Grant Williams at one point. It was like, come on. What are we doing? They're made for each other. Those two are just made for each other. I would watch a documentary just those two trapped with each other. I don't know.

Quickly, what's your take on the? like players podcasting after games. Have you, have you found that interesting or consumed any of that content? You know, I only consumed the ringers content, Kyle. What kind of question is that? You're right, man. Who has bandwidth for anything else? Because that's, there's enough here. You know, it's a one-stop shop. I was going to say, too, do you think there's any kind of like 4D chess going on? Because I caught myself seeing the Draymond stuff and being like, what is he doing? Like, I was like, why are you getting on? I totally took the bait and was like, why are you getting on, immediately getting on and doing a podcast or through the game? Do you think Dreyman's,

Is that much of a galaxy brain thinker about this kind of thing? Or is it totally independent of that? Like, did it have any relationship to the way the game played out? I think he probably just likes creating content. I mean, you get it. You know, it's a, but you start scratching that it's, you just kind of create content. It's kind of like, you know how Bill likes to do positive for the games? He gets so excited.

This is Draymond. He just caught the bug, the content bug. He's got the bug. It's like, yeah. Anyway, this time of year, there's enough content for all sides of it. You know, if you really just want to watch the games, if you're just into that. The events themselves are really interesting and obviously really fun and things we

remember and talk about for decades in some cases. And also on the other end of it, if you're a hardcore nerd and you're looking towards the future, there's a lot for you to get into. This is a thing. A lot of the time we are into the draft, specifically is what I'm talking about, obviously. Using where we are and projecting where we're going to be and figuring out who's going to be a star based on the playoffs and things like that. You and I've talked about that a lot.

these are things that we like to talk about year-round, right? And not the whole mainstream discussion kind of shifts its way towards the draft at this time of the year. And one of the more interesting cases, you and I have ad nauseum talked about the top three in this draft, you know, with Chet, who we both kind of have at the top, with Paolo, Banerro from Duke and with Jabari Smith. Another guy that kind of, if he had played, I would say he was one of the candidates to be in that conversation at the very top is Shaden Sharp. What's your familiarity with Shaden Sharp? What, what has it been like recently for you in relation to him? So I've had to, like most people, I've had to catch up on him. I don't normally watch much AAU ball, but so Sharp, he was the

number one player in the class coming up, class of 23. He reclassifies, goes to Kentucky, which you'll get into in a second, and doesn't play at Kentucky in the spring semester and just sits out. And then no one, no one knew for sure if he would declare for the draft or they'd actually play at Kentucky. He declares for the draft. He's kind of become the mystery man. Everyone's trying to figure out what his deal is. He's really kind of the highest, it feels like, anything that seems possible just because there's not a ton of information on him. So I've been doing the best I can to catch up. Obviously, you being at Kentucky, you kind of are up on the ground of the Shade and Sharp experience. How mad are you? I guess it's a lot. I guess it's

start there on a scale of 1 to 10 that he kind of played coach cow there are layers to this you know there it's sort of like uh it's sort of like adrian brodie in succession the way he dressed i have not watched succession i have to turn my ringer card in for that one okay well um sharp you you described the timeline i think that's the most interesting thing sharp and jparry smith are like roughly the same age they're like right at or a little beyond 19 years old like you said sharp reclassed there's a weird thing where if you go back and look at he's a weird thing where if you go back and look he's from a town called London and Ontario Canada, which is like just on the other side of Lake Erie from like Cleveland. So it feels like he's from like the will, you know, whenever we

think about Canada, I feel like we're just like up there. It's like there's like there's a cabin and he's playing in the snow. It's like no, it's pretty close to Cleveland. He is from there. The timeline is he comes down and plays at Sunrise Christian, which is like a prospect factory out in like Bel Air Kansas. A lot of good players have played there. Grady Dick, a guy that's going to be playing at Kansas, this coming year played there. He goes from there. It's kind of in a lesser role. It takes him a while to get going.

Doesn't really become a main contributor. Transferes again to a place called Dream City Prep in Glendale, Arizona, and he's immediately on the ball. So, like, in Canada, he was known as, like, a top player played for the U-16 national team back in 2019 with a, like, if you go back and watch that, we were talking about this. The U-16 championship game between the U.S. and Canada was hilarious. loaded with prospects. It was like Jalen Duren. It was Andrew Nimhart is in there. But he goes there and he takes off. So he plays he plays his high school year with Dream City. He's way more on the ball. Important to note too is like the

COVID stoppage in 2020. He apparently goes in and improves a lot and we'll talk more about that. But he goes from like not in the top 150 to like in the 50s to he plays a just literally a couple of events. and he goes to number one. And that's kind of an important point too, is he basically, he had one weekend at Peach Jam last summer. And he goes from like a, oh, he's a really good prospect to this is the guy.

He kind of had his ascension at this one tournament in Atlanta. And he becomes the number one player in his class. And he just kind of elevates immediately. Like it was like a skyrocket for him. And that's kind of why he's been so hard. People have been catching up on him. Because he wasn't like number one his whole high school career. he comes to number one in a flash basically yeah it's a very short amount of time it's basically

two or three tournaments there's another tournament that that is interesting called the grind session that they do and and a lot of good players have played in that tie tie at washington played in that at one point it's pretty deep cut nerdy stuff but shaden also was like incredible during that tournament but during the ybL thing he's extremely on the ball I mean a lot a lot of his like ascension was driven by the fact that he's like coming up and like playing with pace and like creating his own shot from three getting to the rim and for people the kind of the run down here i guess we should start from here and we'll talk about kentucky in that situation and in a minute because i wanted to give this sort of like forecast or just extra info here sharp is six

five and a half in shoes he's like pretty built he has sort of like prototypical combo lead guard wing size you know for the NBA sort of built a little bit like beel physically he is like the exact same size as Shea Gildjus Alexander actually. Same length of arms, same size hands, same height, but plays a little different, obviously. But he projects as somebody, he has like a 43 to 45 inch vertical monster athlete. So he goes to Kentucky. He decides, he goes back to Dream City in the fall, actually, and it's like he's a little old.

He's too old to be there. So he's actually the right age for this draft. But he doesn't play Kentucky. And the moment that he reclassed, to answer your question about how mad am I? The moment he reclassed, I feel like most every Kentucky fan was like he's never going to play here. Like we knew that like once they accelerated that timeline, he came and the team was doing pretty well at that point. And I don't know. I wasn't mad because I just never take what these players when it comes to the draft.

I've told you to do this before. I never take what they say seriously because when the money's on the line, they're going to go if they can go in my experience. Okay, so you're not mad at all. Just wanted to just want to clear put the groundwork in. Like we're not mad. Right, right, right. I know that, I know, I wanted to give that, sorry for the monologue there, but I mean, I know, I wasn't mad just because, I mean, you're disappointed.

I didn't, he wasn't my favorite player coming in. I don't know that he necessarily would have helped the team that much, like what they need. But no, I wasn't particularly mad about it. Okay, I have one more question. Do you think he watched the St. Peter's game and said, ah, what's going on here? Let me just go ahead and go out and go to the NBA. What about that game would have turned him off, do you think? I don't all lose to a 15 scene.

Well, they needed a creator, so I guess I'm kind of reneging on what I said before. People are intrigued by this guy because of the things that we described, the things that he flashed. Like, he kind of was a really limited ball handler. Like, he could always kind of spot shoot when he was younger. But when he went in and, like, really, really worked out to improve his jump shot or his off the dribble jumper, that was when people were like, this guy is going to be a serious player. Yeah, and I guess this is a good point to get into his actual game. And this is where it gets complicated.

And I think this is where someone like me, I have to lean on you a little bit because there's plenty of film out there. And I've watched a lot of it. Like it's not like there's no film of them playing high level competition. Like he didn't play college, but he played a ton of high level high school. He played for Team Canada. So I feel like, okay, I've watched enough now where I kind of have a decent enough feel for his game.

What's hard for me is I don't have as much of a feel. of the context of his game. And what I mean by that is so much of watching college is, okay, this player is at this point is progression. And you compare it to other players before. And you're like, okay, compared to this previous player, he was at this point in college. So this is kind of where it tells you,

here's where he is as a passer. Here's where he is as a cutter. But since I don't watch a ton of AAU basketball, it's harder to know, like, whether his traits in those settings are meaningful. or whether that setting is necessarily, it just comes with the territory. And what I mean by that is when you watch Sharp at the lower level at AAU, the big things that jump out one, yes, one-on-one scoring, this guy, like, he can get into his bag,

he can raise up over anybody, he's got really deep range on his jumper, and he's a very good vertical athlete. So he can always get his own shot. That immediately stands out. For me, though, after that, what stood out was, well, he's not driving to pass. So once he put his head down, he was pretty much looking to shoot every single time. And it's funny.

So you have a video coming out where you kind of get into this whole thing. It's like 15. It's a usual Kyle man encyclopedic video. It's 12. I cut it down. It was like 18. I cut it to 12. But what cracked me up is like you show his passing.

Like well, he's shown flashes of passing. And I'm like you literally used every single pass he made in some of these EYBL games. And there's like 10. Like that's all the passes he made are in your video. I was going way into the bag. Looking for, yeah, we were going deep, deep, deep cut, looking for passes. So it was like, okay, so he's not passing very much. He's hardly ever moving off the ball.

You kind of talk about where, okay, he's unplugged. He very much was like, all right, it's not my turn to score or I'm good then. I'll just stand over here. Don't worry about me. And then number three, he's not competing on defense. And now I sound like a 90-year-old man, like, ranting about an AAU ball. And that's where I get like, I'm not sure what that means. Because right, there's nothing not going to all AAU balls.

they don't pass, they don't cut, they don't compete. Yeah. I don't really know how to put that in context. Okay, let me, let's go through this for people because a lot of the people that are going to be talking about Shaden Sharp are going to, there are going to be levels to it. They're going to be the people who watch the EYBL games and like contextualize them correctly. If you, if you just watch Shaden Sharp in the fall of 2021, which is when I told you, he came back to Dream City and he didn't need to be there.

It's very obvious. Like if you, if you watch his body language, he's, annoyed with his teammates. There's a kid, Milos Uzan, who's going to Oklahoma, who's a pretty decent prospect himself. Sharp is mad at him the entire time. You watch him, he's just like every, because Yuzon can score and can dribble, and Sharp is in with like this whole, and these schools turn over every year.

So he had a whole new group of guys. His body language was horrible. So they got him out of there. That was part of the equation. This is something key that I told you that I thought was interesting was, you consider all those things like him being lethargic off ball, not competing all the time, not on either end. I went back and found the footage.

This was the Eureka moment that I called you and I was like, oh, whoa. He's been digging into crates, people. Kyle's been digging deep into the crates on this one. I kept this one to myself because you're always kind of looking for like an info edge. And I got down and I was like, let me see if I can find some of the footage from before he transferred high schools in Canada at his secondary school. So when he was like a sophomore. So I went and I found some.

And it was like, it was a eureka moment because when I was watching him, he was, his activity and his motor was completely different. He's flying around on defense. You texted me back and was like, why did I just watch this? This was a waste of time. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. He was dominating smaller players, but his motor was totally different. You saw him sprinting off the ball.

And then when he transferred to sunrise, what people need to understand is, this is sort of the pushing pull of Shaden Sharp is how you decide to react. is how you decide to react to this information is going to decide what you feel about it. So he moves to sunrise. He's off the ball. He doesn't, the other thing to know too is that this is a very quiet kid, very shy. I've had it described to me as he's very laid back. Man, a few words. We were joking about if you look at Chet's interview with the prospect,

the thing that you sent me, it was like a 15-minute read. Shadens was like three minutes. He just doesn't say a whole lot, so he's quiet. He doesn't do anything when he's there. And then when he goes to Dream City, he has full, like, carte blanche of having the ball and stuff. And his, like, whole demeanor changed. So I'm just kind of thinking the accountability is a word that I keep bringing back to you. Because if you watch him in, like, Canada, his accountability to his teammates seems totally different.

And then when he was the star on the team, his body language and his motor totally changed. Because I wonder if his accountability changed. I mean, when you become the star, it usually does, right? And this is my concern. My concern was sharp is he got to be the number one player in his class by just boss hogging the ball, putting up a ton of shots, and just being the man, basically. And I think if I was him, I would say,

well, then this is clearly the way I should play, right? Like, what are we incentivizing here? Does he see himself as I'm the top dog, number one player in my class, I'm a star, I'm going to come in and get my shot no matter what? Or does he see himself as I'm a guy, who can fit into a system and play multiple roles. I think that mindset is going to be huge for him at the next level one way or the other. And I just wonder if he's being incentivized to be a shot creating ball dominant player.

Of course he's being incentivized. And another thing that I was thinking too is like whenever you're changing, if you think about somebody that is changing schools a lot, you're already kind of a quiet person. And a reality here too is like people are, I saw a tweet where like an executive was just like going off on him for not playing and being like, uh, you know, just really a lot of anger. I've sensed a lot of just kind of frustration at him. He isn't making these decisions.

This is sort of the controversy, is that, like, he didn't choose to not play Kentucky. I don't know what he would have chosen on his own, but the guy who has been running the show for him, and this is something you can go read about, basically told Cal that he was coming back, and a lot of people are like, and there was, like, misleading information out there about that.

And people are taking that out on Shading a lot. Now, whether or not Shaden would have, you're smiling, I know, but you can read into that how you want. But the other thing about like the playmaking and stuff, the counter to it, if you wanted to play devil's advocate is this is new to him. You know, he's early on in this. He got it. We always joke about like once you get a taste of the heliocentric thing, it's hard to, it's the Caesar, you know, given the keys back after he was seated all the power. It's like, once you get a taste of that power, it's hard to go back. Hard to fly coach after you've been in first class.

Yes. hard to go back to coach and that's what we were robbed of we were robbed if he had played a year at kentucky it it would have been developmentally in his best interest to do that like he would have come out of the kind of kentucky's program i think most people would this isn't me as a kentucky guys saying this like it is but it isn't like most people agree cal can coach defense really really well guys that come to kentucky are ready to defend when they leave um that's what he missed out on so i guess you kind of figure where would his draft spot have been if he had come i don't know do you do you think in a year of college we would have really

seen enough stressors on his like you were talking about getting off the ball whenever he's driving do you what do you think he would have been like in college just like speculating at a high major level i mean i think that is the question that's why there's such a range of outcomes and i got to say first off hey you remember that i mean corn cobbed like do you know what that is corn cobbed no yeah Well, it was like, the meme was, the Google is funny. It's like, I have not been owned. I have not been owned as I melt into a corn cob. And that's kind of what Cal spent the last three months getting corn cobs.

Right. I have not been owned. Sharp's going to play basketball. Cow was the very last person in the entire world to acknowledge that he was not going to play at Kentucky. So I just thought that was hilarious. And I think what you're, and the question is really good question. And this is where I come back to is Sharp with these range of outcomes.

because I'm comparing Sharp to, for example, there's a guy named Jaden Hardy. So he was a top five player in last year's high school class. He's a kind of a similar player, a score first ball dominant shooting guard. He went to the G League Ignite and really struggled last year instead of not playing. And he went from a guy being seen as a top five pick

to now he'll probably go into 20s. And I think that's probably why Sharp didn't play this year. I think Sharp's people were like, we don't have that much to gain in terms of perception, but we have a lot to lose. If he comes into this draft as number one overall player, Shaden Sharp, he's not going to fall too far

because the last thing we saw of him was so good. If he goes to Kentucky for three months, really struggles playing off the ball, doesn't have it enough, has a hard time being like fitting into a team half to the season, all of a sudden he could drop, you know, 10, 15 spots easily. Remember Hamadu Diyalo? That's another Kentucky player who came in,

half the year and fell out of the first rounds. And I think that's the concern with Sharp is like he could have kept played himself into the top 10, but it just easily could have put himself way out of it if he had played. And so now we're just kind of guessing. Yeah, the difference is here. I mean, I really do legitimately think that he is a shot making talent. Like he has great balance and touch. He has great elevation. We talked about his touch all over the floor. He can like break really hard to get to his shot. I know people talk about him being like a roasty with his first step. guy because he's so explosive vertically. I see him as more of a like start-stop creator because he's going to be really strong. Like we said, the Beal and the footwork and the booker and things like that.

Like that's the kind of player he likes to play like. I don't usually like brag like this, but I have watched everything available, I would say. Like nearly everything if it's out there. I even watch some All-Star games from back in the day. I really don't think he would have struggled in the college game. Maybe his ability to get off the ball, like we were talking about his ability to pass, and things like that. But that's the thing, man, is that this, I think, is the question for Sharp. The talent is obviously sky high. It's about the person.

We're talking about a McLaren of an athlete. Like, we're talking about a top level player. But it's like, who's behind the wheel? Is it a teenager? Or is it Mario Andretti? Okay, see, I think this is an important point. You watch him, I think, like, yes, he does have a crazy vertical. But I don't necessarily see him as, like, this elite.

I think people kind of have this idea in their head Oh, this is like an elite athlete. Like in my mind, when I think elite athlete of two-guard position, I think Anthony Edwards. And I don't see him as an Anthony Edwards level athlete. What specific part of athleticism, though? I mean, the ability to get to your spots

at a super, super fast rate with a ton of size. Like Sharp can get up, but I saw I'm taking a lot of contested shots. Whereas when I watched Anthony Edwards the first time, it was like, this is the best athlete on the floor. these guys cannot stay in front of him. He can do whatever he wants at any time. And that's my concern is I think Sharp plays a lot like Anthony Edwards.

He does. But I don't think he has the same level of overwhelming athletic dominance. Even though he does have like a 45 inch vertical, I don't really see him like necessarily showing that in the games, like flying around the court, being the best. To me when I watched him, I didn't see a guy who was like clearly the best athlete in terms of getting into guys blowing by. guys. He seemed more like a, you use the, in the piece, you compare him to Gary Trent. And that's kind of more the level athlete I shot. But I think athletically too, it kind of reminded me of that a little bit. Like he's a good athlete. He's not going to be like overwhelmed with the next

level. But I'm not sure he can dominate purely on athletic ability like Ant Man Can. No, I mean, Ann is also on it. There are like tears to this. Like he's very, I do think Shaden is a good athlete. I think Motor can kind of mask some of it a little bit. He's not as twitchy powerful as Anthony Edwards but I do think that his dribble separation is pretty good I think that they're they're an interesting kind of comparison

because and I make this point in the video that when I watched Edwards I had a lot of the same questions I was like obviously incredible talent like there was no I mean you don't you don't need to be a great evaluator to even see that and like he's obviously can get to his shot whenever he wants

can power up over people the question is just going to be his motor to get better because guys like him like demar de rosen is another guy who came into the league with like similar questions we're like we know you can get to your shot we know you know you're this type of athlete you're this kind of like strength skill combo thing i think you know i think shaden's a way better shooter than edwards or de rosen i really think that's the case um because he he was taking top threes and still shooting in the mid-30s throughout i just think that's going to be the question for him His ability to get better at those things

is going to really be driven by how obsessive of a worker he is, in my opinion. That makes sense. And I think after the break, we can kind of get into the destinations that make the most sense for him and where he fits into the lottery. Yes, after we come back, we'll talk about that. Maybe a little more about the players that are going to be available, what the teams might do, things like that after the break.

So Sharp is a player. If you're outside of the top three, I've sensed a lot of excitement from, from fans of teams who are drafting in that like four to eight, maybe even four to, I don't think he'll slip. How far do you think he could potentially slip in this draft? It's hard to say. It's really hard to say. I mean, I don't think out of the top 10, but there's just such a range and that so much depends on the individual front offices evaluating him. It's hard to get a good feel for that. Well, this is a good segue to you texted me very excitedly and said, you have a comp for Shaden Sharp.

And I think this is where, and I didn't guess who it was. Can I guess now or do you want to? Well, okay, here's what I'm thinking. When I watched him play, I was like, okay, 6-6-2 guard, really good athlete, really good creator, one-on-one player, doesn't move off the ball too much, not really much of a passer, can go deep in his bag, get a shot at any time. Good but not great athlete. That was in my head for this comp. This feels insulting, but I was wondering even if you were going to, like, disposition, too, if you were factoring that in. Were you thinking Jeremy Lamb? Is that who you were thinking of? I would say Nick Young.

Oh, Nick. Oh, no. He's a different type of player than Nick Young, I think. Is it? I mean, Nick Young was a one-on-one monster. He could get a shot whenever he wanted. He was more of a like dribble, like humiliate you, roast you. And I don't think he's, I think, I really do legitimately think Shaden is a better shooting prospect than him. I think he's a legitimate shooting prospect. I think you're right about Gary Trent. I think you're right when you reference me. Yeah.

So really indirectly, I'm saying I'm right. There's similar body types like that thick. He's just like a heavier build. Like he's got more of a power element to his game. But let's talk about fit. What would be the best destination for him in your opinion in this, in this range based on what we know about him. So you have the top three,

been talked to death as you kind of talked about. And then four, five, six, you have Sacramento, Detroit, Indiana. To me, with Sharp, and I think, I would say like Detroit.

And I think Detroit fits for a lot of players. I think this is kind of where you get into why Kate Cunningham is such a good prospect to build around. Because Kate is pretty unselfish, he dominates the ball, but doesn't take a million shots. a very good passer, spreads the floor.

It just feels like a lot of different kinds of players would make sense next to Cade. And you could kind of see sharp in that mold too. You have a very big back court. And you could just think Cade could get this guy a lot of shots pretty easily. Oh, it seems like your tone about Cade Cunningham is shockingly positive compared to the past.

I mean, I'm just pointing that out. Well, I think that is the value of him as you start building in terms of the way he can build around him. Purely hypothetical, right, but you don't believe that, you know, right? Because you're, I'm just not letting you go. Well, he's no Franz Wagner, but that's a whole different conversation. Right. Anyway, yeah, Kate is like, I always say motherboard.

Like, he's the type of, like, you can plug pieces into him, and he makes them make sense. Him next to Shaden, I think the key, the key detail here is that Shaden is, I think in terms of him as a person, him as a player, where he lands is going to be very, very important because some players can, it doesn't necessarily matter as much because they're so actualized as what they are and they're ready to contribute in all these different ways. If he gets with another primary playmaker like Cade, I think that it would enable him to be himself and not put too much pressure on him, you know? I think that he would get a diet of shots. It's kind of the, it's kind of the Michael Porter Jr. Yokic thing, not necessarily to that level of like talents, but like it definitely, I think,

would help him out if he could play with another playmaker like that? Yeah, I mean, I think all these spots, and that's what all these teams are going to have to figure out. So Sacramento at four is Deerrin Fox. Indiana at six has Tyrese Halliburton. I would think probably if you get to seven or eight, we have Portland at seven, New Orleans at eight. That's where like the expectations of winning are so much higher.

I think that probably not be the best spot for him just because those teams are trying to win immediately. There's not really time to bring a younger player along. I mean, Sharps, the biggest thing, he's got to play. I think that gets, like, forgotten sometimes.

It was that whole stuff with, like, Golden State and, like, James Wiseman. Oh, this would be a great spot from learning from Draymond Green. It's like, you learn by playing. If your team, the team is so good that they don't have time to develop you.

It's not a great spot for you. I don't think more often than not. Yeah, winning. Winning is, quote, unquote, an enemy of that if, like, they don't have time to give you, like, the, I always use,

like the X-Men, the Danger Room. You watch X-Men, how they have that room where they can go in. The X-Men had this room called the Danger Room, where they would go in, and it would simulate combat and stuff like that, and it was very realistic. But some bad teams can kind of do that. I can't believe you don't know that reference. Good God. I've seen the movies.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't remember that. This is mainly from the cartoon, I'm pretty sure. But anyway, he needs that. He needs, like, reps where he can get out there and, like, the consequences aren't. But the other thing is, like, too many rookies. You can only develop so many rookies at once. So I think that it's going to be like Indiana,

unless they make some kind of move with Brogden. Like you're right, like Halliburton would be interesting with him. I don't think that he would be a good fit for Portland. Like Portland's, like we've talked about, Portland has an agenda of wanting to, you know, satisfy Dame in the short term. I don't really even know.

I was going to ask you, is there even a move quickly here? Like, is there even a short term move that Portland could make to become a factor? in the West? I think you trade your pick. I think the Jeremy Grant one. I think that's the one that jumps out. If you got Jeremy Grant to Portland for that number seven pick. Yeah, definitely. So if we, I think the pistons, like we said, and the one of the big hinging thing here is like how do the Kings look at Ivy? Because Ivy has become sort of the implied pick, I think, at four. Most people think

that he's a guy that has a high upside. What do you think about the Ivy Fox dynamic? Should they move the pick should what if the kings go for sharp because this is a superstar play they don't really I won't say they don't get chances to get superstars because they do but not to hammer that but what do you what do you think the king should do it for that's where it gets tough and then I just wonder because of the way the lottery odds have changed and it's so hard to get up into the top four that's like it to me it's like there's been a lot of talk okay KOC mentioned it I think in one of his pieces, how Sacramento at four is like trying to get a win now player and maybe move back in the draft.

And it's like, yeah, I get that. But man, you don't get many shots at the top four. Like you don't get many shots to take a guy you think can be a star. And I think that is kind of the, that is really the question hanging over the middle of the draft. So after the three bigs, the top three guys, and maybe even a guy get into the top three. And it's like, Jade and Ivy and Shaden Sharp, do you believe these guys have star potential? And if they do, do you just have to take them? I think that is kind of the question for all those teams in the middle.

Because you just never know when you're going to get this high again. It's very, very hard. You look at like Detroit, they were the worst team in the league most of the year, and they had the number five pick. So it's very possible they don't even get to five again. They could be at seven or eight really quickly, right? and then you're never getting a chance of this kind of talent. Who do you value?

I think the Sharp Ivy kind of question is interesting because they have different, differing paths to get to, like, I think that like Ivy's a better passer at this point, obviously. He's a little older, also should know, but he's faster. He's rangeier. He's more of like a laterally flexible kind of player. Like I believe in him as a defender more than I do Sharp. The shooting was sharp, I think, is a lot stronger.

Ivy got better from euros one to two. I think you went up like a whole 10% on more attempts this past year. What do you think about measuring those two guys, like their paths? Who do you think is a more surefire bet to become a good NBA player? It's a great question. I think Ivy is such an interesting prospect because I think he sits at a couple big swing points in terms of how we evaluate players. I think number one, five years ago, the big question about Ivy would be, is he a point guard or a shooting guard, right? That would kind of be the way everyone looks at it.

And I still think that's an important question. But I feel like that gets thrown away so quickly now. People like positionless basketball, who cares? I still think that kind of matters, though. And I think that there's so much into the Ivy discussion is how much can be. And I guess it's less point guard shooting guard versus how much can he play on the ball versus off the ball? Like what's the best role for Jaden Ivy? I think that's what we're all still trying to figure out.

Because like statistically he's a very interesting player because I looked this up when I was doing my big piece on him. In the last like five years, like five or six years, there's only been a handful of guards who are shorter than six foot five, taking the top 10 who averaged fewer than five assists per game. And that's kind of the world Ivy's living in. Do you remember that list off the top of your head? Yeah, I have it right here. So it's Anthony Edwards, Kobe White, Jalen Green, and then Jalen Suggs. And I think that's the question for me because everyone's been given Ivy the Jha Morant comparison.

That's like the obvious comparison, except John Morant was like averaging nine assists the game in college. Ja was an incredible creator like in terms of like passing like I talk about passing vocation. Gabiator, like, Jah was like an incredible pace manipulator for not being a great shooter at the college level. You knew like, okay, when I draft Jha Morant, he's my offense. You knew from day one, you give him the keys, you just go. And I just don't know you can do that with Ivy right now. Yeah, and I think in that St. Peter's game, you don't try to, you don't try to read too much into

one game, but I think his ability to dictate pace is going to be the question for him. Because with Morant, we knew the other stuff was in place where we were like, we know, like you said we know is he going to be my offense at the time i wasn't sure about him score like the scoring part of that but we knew the passing part of that we've talked a lot about how for an athletic guard he is like on another level in terms of like combination athleticism playmaking and for green if you i guess comparing i don't know i can't remember if you did this in the piece but like comparing those other guys like i guess you're betting on the tools the plus and the minuses here for like green we were like okay crazy shot creator we believe in that uh sucks we know defensive upside is pretty high

Kobe White was a little bit more of a what would we say I mean what was like the plus plus skill going into the draft that people thought Kobe White was going to bring immediately was it just the scoring speed and speed and passing and scoring yeah because he was playing for you and see and they're pushing the ball all the time he's running yeah yeah so so that's an interesting kind of question there I mean to answer your question about like does being a point guard or a two guard matter you know over time we've like we've evolved to the point where initiators come from every spot. I think we've kind of let go of this idea that like the point guard needs to be the central point of the offense. But it's interesting to see the two offenses that

were like the Celtics have survived in the playoffs because they were able to get enough initiation from like Tatum evolved. We saw it from like Marcus Smart kind of came into his own a little bit more this year and became dependable. That's the question with Ivy. He's like do we think I don't know that I don't know about like handing him to keys. I don't know if I believe enough in the shooting. I don't know if I believe enough in the passing, even though I do think he's a good passer, not great. His ability to kind of evolve into somebody that is capable of like taking some reps on the ball. I maybe weirdly believe in him a little more than I do Shaden in that sense. What do you think about that? It's tough because I think what you, the key point you were hitting on

was like you're talking about the St. Peter's game is like controlling tempo and pace. What worries me is he didn't have to do that in college very much. And so much, he's talking, okay, let's put him on the ball. It's not necessarily passing per se. Obviously, passing is huge, but it's like the ability to think the game at a really high level and the mental responsibilities that come with that. Whereas I felt like at Purdue, Ivy was free to like come on and off the ball, get his shots up, make the next play.

But he wasn't having to be like, okay, let's make sure Zach Edy gets a touch on the block. Let's make sure that all my Stefanovich is getting his shots off screens He wasn't having to control the game That's a very hard thing to learn And then it's like, okay, now And here's where I get really concerned Okay, now we're playing them off the ball

So it jumped out to me That list of guys I was talking about Of guys who had to, who weren't like point guards But weren't like super tall And we had to play Kind of combo guard roles They all took a ton of threes Earlier their NBA career

So as a rookie Anthony Edwards took seven threes a game. Kobe White took six threes a game. Jalen Green took seven threes a game. And then Jalen Suggs only took four, but he shot like 20% from three. His shot abandoned him, and it became very hard to play him off the ball in Orlando.

That's my concern with Jaden Ivy. Muchs everything else up. Yeah, he's improved as a shooter, but he still only shot 75% from the free throw line as a sophomore. And for as much as this three-point shot improves, if the frito shot doesn't improve with that, you wonder how real it really is. And my concern with IV is if you draft him, you're going to be putting a lot of pressure on him as a shooter. I'm not sure that's really going to go. So you seem pretty skeptical right now is what kind of what weighing the positives versus the negatives.

I'm getting the vibe that you kind of feel. Let me just ask you straight up. I mean, who would you take, Sharp or Ivy? I would take. I would take I. You said S.H. You literally changed your mind right before you said it. No, I think that's more because I'm just not sure.

I look at Sharp and we'll get into this in the next pod probably. You guys like Benedict Matherin, A.J. Griffin, some of the other wings. I'm not sure Sharp's ceiling is that much higher than those guys. And I feel a lot more comfortable with their floors. Whereas Ivy, I think does have a really, really high ceiling. I think with Ivy, you're hoping, you're kind of hoping for a, Donovan Mitchell, I think he's the, he's the everyone hopes Ivy becomes in terms of a guy who was a combo guard who slowly develop more point guard skills over time and a good system. So I think like

if I was Detroit at five, I would have no problem taking Ivy because of the way Cade, because Cade can play honor off the ball, because Cade can control the game, because Cade can space the floor, I think that's what makes Ivy such an interesting fit with Cade. But if I'm a team like Sacramento where I've got a ball dominant point guard who doesn't space the floor where I've got a big time post score who doesn't space the floor now I'm throwing jaden ivy in the mix there and davy on too yeah davy another guy who needs to go to the basket there's just not a lot of space on the floor for jaden ivy I could see that being a problem really fast yeah and that that is an interesting thing because those we're just to a couple of podcasts are sitting here like doing that

calculus, which seems pretty simple. I mean, I think in today's game, I mean, if you're playing more than two-shoot, non-shooters, it's a pretty special situation. Like you were talking about three-point percentage. Spot-up three-point percentage for Ivy, 30.2%. It just makes you think if teams are going to be like kind of pointing, you know, tapping the glass and be like, hey, we see what's going on here. You guys want to move that pick.

Ivy would be a weird fit. I don't know. Weighing sharp situation, I think I want. want to just touch on his ceiling really quick before we go. You hit it. Today's NBA, and this is something that I was thinking about, two things, two things. Mental motor to grow in the game, you know, he improved a lot during that COVID year and got better. I mean, he exploded. He just exploded and got a lot better. Things clicked for him. Where he goes to the next step, I think your, you're sort of like openness to like buying into accountability is really critical. Because

if you watch the two teams that are in the finals right now, both have close. cultures of accountability that players buy into. And it's like, how do you build that? You're going to have to go to a situation where like the organization is so good, but like the Celtics and the warriors both have that. Sharp's ability to kind of get to his ceiling is going to depend on a lot of things going right. If everything goes right, based on what I've kind of researched on him, I see him as probably like a third star like on a good team, you know? I don't know that I would feel comfortable being like this is our guy. I think if you're if you have something going and you want to bring him along slowly definitely think he's he's worth the risk because uh I think he's really talented

as a finisher um as a spot up player as a like spot up one dribble shoot kind of player um I think I do believe in those things and him doing those things efficiently at the next level well I guess let's flip the question then so like where do you see his ceiling as as comparable players and where would you have him relative to ivy i had a hard time coming up with like a direct one-to-one comp like in terms of like measuring him against ivy you another thing we failed to mention too is like the reports on ivy are that like he is is like i'm the man like that's kind of how he's wired like so him and fox immediately seems like that would be a problem uh the comps i think derosen is in it is an interesting developmental comp just i think you can just go down and look the line and look at got we had

conversations like this about like Edwards is similar to like his ability to develop that like when to pass the ball when to use his downhill gravity to help his teammates and just not not having so much tunnel vision I think he can become a good enough team defender I don't know that he's going to be a lockdown perimeter type defender but all those things considered that that's the type of play you're talking about Levine DeRosen aunt man and we're not talking necessarily see feelings, but that's the path that he's on to get better, in my opinion. Yeah, and I think that's what makes it tough. I think that's a big part of the evaluation too is I just feel like with Levine and Antman,

these are guys who really develop their feel in the NBA. DeRosen, too. I mean, DeRosen improved as much as any player in the last generation in terms of where he came into the league out of USC, where he is now in his early 30s. And I just think for sure, like Levine and Ant Man, what I'm, I watched them as college freshman. It was like these guys were a whole other level athletically. Like it was just like it jumped off the screen.

This guy is just an absolute. It was like a moment. I remember watching Zach Levine as a freshman. You know unusual suspects where the guy drops the coffee cup? And he's like, his mind is so blown. He can't even hold the cup. That was me when I watched the HBBL high school footage for Sharp. I dropped the gun.

Okay. So I had that moment with Levine. It was like there was this one guy. I can't remember what it was. anymore, but there's one game where he has like two 360 winmill dunks and like a 10 minute stretch and like two pull up threes. And I'm like, this guy is an absolute freak athlete next level. I'm just not sure sharp is that level athlete. And I just

think that is where Levine and Edwards had so much margin for error. Like Levine and Edwards came into the NBA like we're the best athletes almost in the entire league from day one. And that just gives you so many like pathways to improve when like I can come in and just blow by people. it will basically. I'm not sure Sharp is at that level and I wonder how much that holds him back ultimately because he does have to improve

I think it'll be more important for him to improve his feel than it was for Levine and Ant Man because those guys could just straight up dominate athletically and I think that's probably the evaluation piece where it's going to be very critical for how teams look at Sharp. Yeah, I think Westbrook is another one you could throw in there

because if you have developmental questions it's about like staying on the floor to develop them because if you can't stay on the floor, you're penalizing your team. And that's the thing. Like Levine and Ant, you're right, twitchy powerful athletes that like are a lot of people compare Jalen Green to Levine. I mean, it's the same kind of thing. Scores that need to figure out how to play, use their gravity. And I think Levine had more playmaking instincts even. But that's the question for Sharp. And like, you're right. And I'm not trying to argue that he is the same type of athlete. He's not.

I saw people saying first step. I was like, I'm not seeing that. He plays more upright. He's like a power. I think he's going to develop into sort of like a power pace ball handler. I really do think so. Yeah, using his size to create space for himself, basically. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, like start, stop, you know? Because if you watch him, that's where he has the most success. And I do think that like at top speed, he is very athletic. He just doesn't get from zero to 60. I don't know. How do you define Twitch? Like you hear people talk. What's the difference?

People who don't follow the draft, what do we mean when we say? say Twitch in your opinion. When I think Twitch, I think like, I think the really we just talked about, I think Levine and Edwards, when you watch them and it's like, this guy, the guy guarding him cannot stay in front of him if he's playing up on him. He's just that fast in his one cut, his first step. I think first step. And I think, I remember talking to someone when the wolves, Ant Man's first year.

And they were telling, they were talking about how like Chris Paul was talking to them. was like, I can't believe this guy's first step. There's nobody in the NBA who can stay in front of Anthony. This is freaking ridiculous. And when I think Twitch, that's what I think of generally. Yeah, yeah. I always think you were play that like a hand smack game where like one person has their hand behind their back and the other person has their hands in front of them and you have to

see if you can smack the hands. Yeah, yeah. Like people who are good at that game. That's Twitch. Like fast movements. Like Sharp isn't that type of player, but he's the type like at top speed. he's fast and can jump high and things like that. But that's kind of the distinction that we're making here.

Long wingspan, too, 6-11, I should say. Got to get that in there. And what we're talking about in terms of, okay, it's like evaluating him and then evaluating the context of where he's been, given that he didn't play in college. I think this is where you're going to see a lot of NBA teams are moving this direction already is that's why so many in the last couple of years, it's kind of been like this hidden store around the league is these guys,

who are high school evaluators are being hired by NBA teams to scout because it's more and more you've got to be able to catch these guys early. You're not going to be sure if they go to college. Right. Next year, overtime elite could have like two or three top ten picks. And so you're going to have to be evaluating this overtime elite guys based purely off watching their film with no statistical context, no broader awareness of like where they fit in because it's such a brand new thing.

The ignite guys are the same way too a little bit still. there's not a lot of historical comparisons to make. So it's like pure about, it's becoming more and more like just pure evaluation. It's like how, if you just watch a guy on an island and you're an NBA, it's like you've got to be able to know what matters and what doesn't. And it's like that's becoming pure evaluation A

and then developing them once they're there. And it's just, this is not going to be like long story short, this shade and sharp conversation is going to be a conversation we have a lot in next couple years. And that's the other thing too is that he hasn't played in like a year. year. So a lot of, even the things, that's the caveat too, is like the things we're evaluating are old. He is older now. So it's like, who knows where he is as a player? Who knows how he's

been playing? And that's Intel too that I got that he really was not looking to play five on five with his teammates at Kentucky. Just has been weirdly resistant to it. I don't know what that's about. That's a whole other kind of social thing. But the high school sample matters. And I think that like getting ready and like the more you can train yourself to get into that mindset of like, like accountability, taking a role that maybe isn't as opposed to playing at a dream city and being ball dominant and not having to play defense all the time. That's the value of going to like a Mont Verde. And like the pattern that we're seeing is that like a lot more high school, a lot more guys are coming into the league ready to defend. And I was asking a college coach about like, you know,

what are the programs that are like Cade and Scotty are two Montverd guys? Like there's benefit of going to these programs early whenever you can. But yeah, it's fascinating. to do man i love talking about evaluating guys uh with you charks i i uh it was interesting to hear your perspective on that uh anything else you want to add on on sharp i was just going to say you got kyle's got a video coming out real soon he's dug deep into the crates you got to watch it and he kind of he was saying he was sending me videos like 500 views on youtube that you've got to watch it it's like the two of us and these kids families are the little ones watching these videos it 100% was a family member recording it and what i what i what i

one of my favorite things to do is I enjoy the it's almost it's almost like a true crime community I enjoy getting into like weird video places of the internet where I know that sounds bad but I enjoy trying to go and find footage that is like mislabeled I remember like Darius Garland was another case of this when he only played like four games in college it was like what are we going to watch well it turned out Brentwood academy had this whole YouTube channel where they didn't label their videos and I went on there and it was like no one had watched them. So stuff like that is really fun. I don't know, just to go fine. Because it's all about context, you know? Because if we had just judged that small context, we would come away being like Shaden 100% is lazy. He 100% is selfish.

And that other video showed that maybe that's not necessarily the case. And you're making a bet on which is it. What is he going to be? Who is he going to be? And that's the interesting part of this. Yeah, low video views. That's a good sign. If you find a video with a low video count, you know, you got something.

Yeah, it's all about finding the edge, man. It's just like a poker or whatever. Anyway, have you, are you, have you written anything? Are you working on anything right now? Just, just this pod. Just pods. Just pods. Just pods.

And you can tell, man. All right. Well, yeah, check that video out. Check all the other kind of. We're going to have draft and finals coverage coming up and tweet us up. And if there's anybody or anything you want to hear about, let us know. And Charks, it was really good to see you, buddy. Yeah, it's fun.

And we'll be back probably, at least probably one or two more pods for the draft. Go a little deeper into the lottery. some of our favorite players that we haven't got a chance to talk about yet we'll get into all that weeks go on all right guys we'll catch you next time later all right shout out hornet leg yes this this podcast was produced by hornet leg i definitely want to get that in chris sutton the legend hornet leg