The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Ripple Effects. Plus, the Zion Chase Is On? | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos talk about the Denver Nuggets winning their first championship and whether this team is good enough to become a dynasty. Then they discuss how we should view Nikola Jokic and Jamal Murray in a wider context (7:04). Then they talk about the ripple effects of this loss for the Heat and where they go from here. Lastly they discuss the news that the Pelicans could be interested in trading Zion Williamson (1:09:05). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast unlike any other. This is Fairway Rowland on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter. Joe House every week on Fairway Rowland. It is myself and our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard, talking all things, professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking, my birdie buddies. If you want to hit them straight out there,

please check out Fairway Rowland every week, available on Spotify. And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me to parade enthusiasts, Rob Mahoney, big Waz, gentlemen, congratulations. Was, are you feeling like front of the parade or should we be in the caboose? What's your vibe for our Denver situation?

Definitely front of the parade for Shoski. Something in our cup, for sure. And maybe, who knows? Something in the air, you know, as they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. However, I do want to correct, Justin. You have to congratulate me twice. Because as producer Isaiah knows,

my side, Manchester City, won the treble this weekend, which was, was immediately followed up and by the treble guys. They won Champions League, FAA Cup, and Premier League. Anyway, they won that this weekend, so I was very happy in a celebratory mood. And the Denver Nuggets, who I predicted back in October.

You can go listen to the October 15th episode of Weekends with Waz. Got the receipts. With me and my man, Adam Mores. Go check that out. Shout to everybody over at DMVR. We predicted the Nugs would win the championship, but more importantly, because you'll be surprised to hear this, Justin, but I actually relisten to my own podcast from nine months ago.

That doesn't surprise me at all. The most important part is that the reasons that we thought the Nuggets would win is exactly why. Dominant offense and an ability to lock in when needed, when absolutely necessary on defense, and they won. They won the chip. Rob. Look, we're only calling you champ was today. You're a double champion, two times.

Give the man his gold. Give the man his medals. What the audience can't see right now is waz in the midst of all that took his shirt off and put on some goggles. I don't see any champagne nearby, but you know that's coming next. In short order, I will be that Chris Bosch meme. Do you guys remember Chris Bosch from the first championship? Just pouring champagne. Oh, yeah.

Legendary. I will say, you know, I got to do just a little bit more reporting, but in the post game championship locker room, you know, the media are streaming in. It's wall-to-wall people. Champagne is spraying everywhere. It's literally dripping from the ceiling. And off in the corner, I see our guy Howard Beck, and I think he brought his own champagne goggles. I'm like, this is a veteran move because even the players, like, they're constantly adjusting them.

They're constantly complaining about their eyes stinging. I'm just in the splash zone every second that I'm in there. But Howard's on top of it. I got to talk to Howard and see if he actually brought them or maybe he got a little assist from someone on the Nugget staff. But that's a veteran play right there. Can we stay on this for one second? Is this your first championship, Champaign shower experience, Rob?

Absolutely not. I'm trying to think the first one might have been, I'm trying to think. It may have been 2011. Wow, the Mavericks. The Mavericks one. but it hits different on the road, you know? Like, that's a different environment in terms of the champagne shower situation. But yeah, for those who've never been in a championship locker room,

it's like you were in a water park. Like you come out, your clothes are fully drenched. And there's nothing that players love more in that situation than spraying each other with bottles of champagne and spraying you as media members with bottles of champagne to the point that every, like, large camera in the vicinity is covered in a trash bag in the hopes that it, might be functional by the end of the night.

But honestly, probably aren't. And who cares? Like, you got to capture what you can capture in those moments. And it is, it's an incredible scene. Well, especially like the Nuggets where only one guy on that team has ever won a title. They were, they were really living. Kenny. KC. Shout out to Kenny.

What's the recourse, though, on your end, Rob? Like, take me through the graduate moment after you've been sprayed with champagne. Like, are you working under those conditions, like, all wet? Or do you immediately go back to your hotel? Like what's the next move? Well, I look, for post game, I didn't even bother with the podium. I wanted to see what was happening in the locker room the whole time. And I will say the Nuggets probably went longer and harder in the locker room than any championship team I've ever seen.

It was just like a constant party people filtering in and out to attend to their various other responsibilities. So I just, I try to wait out the party as long as I could. And then, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to sit dripping wet in a media seat in like media dining. trying to write off of that. I got to go home and change out of out of the clothes at that point. But you got to write it out. And to their credit,

the Nuggets guys brought it, you know, Nicola Yokic body slammed Jamal Murray into a swimming pool as part of the celebration and out of the back of the locker room. There were dance circles. There was music popping. Players, I thought honestly,

were very patient under the circumstances fielding our bullshit questions in the middle of their gigantic party. They were pretty generous with that stuff. but man, it was a scene. And it was just an incredible moment of of Nuggets history, but also of like individual history for these specific guys. Guys like Ish Smith and Jeff Green who have been around,

who have never had this opportunity, guys like Jamal and Nicola who were just like ascending this mountain for the first time and really have so much further yet to go. Really an incredible moment. And honestly, one that was just like really genuinely cool to be a part of. Well, that was just your Tuesday night, right? Just regular Tuesday. No, I do not give.

my clothes dirty with liquor on purpose for anybody or anything. So shouts to Rob, intrepid reporter on the scene. You know, the things we do for the story. Yeah. So, all right, is that enough just general basking in the glory from you guys wise? Do you want like another five to ten? No, I think we could get into like the sort of bigger questions out of the championship. For sure, I'm happy to do that.

One of my bigger questions is Justin, is there. anything you'd like to say for yourself now that the Nuggets are NBA champions? Do you know? No. It seems like they had a nice time. They did have a nice time. What would you guys like for me? I'm not apologizing.

No, I'm not media person should apologize to X because they were quote unquote wrong about them or just acknowledge that I've never seen you do X, Y, and Z thing. I don't see why I should believe that you will. I don't think that's apology worthy. I'm just genuinely want to know your takeaways from the Nuggets,

greatness and dominance this NBA postseason. Well, it probably brings us to our docket for this evening because I think what we're going to do here is try to spin it just slightly forward and talk about what we need to reconsider just as a result of the Nuggets winning the finals. I mean, do I think about them any differently than they did before? Personally, yeah, they've been minted in a way. that I think you can't take away from them, obviously. And so I personally would put them into the mix of teams that are going to be title contenders

for the foreseeable, but do I think that they are going to be the type of team that might stack titles and be a dynasty in the way that I think some people are already forecasting? I'm a little dubious. I'd like to wait and see for that to happen. But I think that's a fair question for you guys as well. like Rob, like coming out of that title, this is like the first question that we have here. Like, do you see the nuggets from this point on as more of a box, which will define that as a team that won a title, but has been in the mix, but clearly hasn't won it again. So they're just hanging around.

They are in the upper crust? Or are we looking at more of like a Warriors or Warriors light situation where like, yeah, this team might win two. They might win three out of five. Like, where are you on them long term? Yeah, I like the Warriors parallel. And I say that in part knowing that year two for the Warriors is losing in the finals. I think what's interesting about the Nuggets is when you look at the West specifically, I'm looking, you know, obviously the Sons are going to try to get better.

Teams like Clippers, the Clippers may be like more fully formed and healthy by the time they get into the playoffs. We'll see kind of what the Warriors have in store in terms of like flipping some of their players around and trying to improve their roster. But overall in that conference, I think the Nuggets looked like a pretty. heavy favorite to come out of it again in terms of like a preseason, at least going into the offseason standpoint. We'll see if things get really shaken up. But that gives them an incredible leg up on even some of these other teams, whether you like the Bucks or whether you like the Celtics to get back, whether you like whatever it is the heat might do in terms of making their roster better, those teams are going to have to clobber it out amongst themselves. And I think the nuggets

have separated themselves as being a pretty significant cut above even these other Western Conference teams that we thought were really good. And so they are, team that if not, I don't know that I can expect them just a stack title on title on title. What the Warriors do is pretty unique. But they are in a position to get back to the finals for some repeat appearances. And we'll see how they stack up with the best teams that come out of the east and that time. But that's kind of where I am with them. Is there a team that until shown otherwise, they've proven that they can get there.

They've proven that they have the offense and the defense to get there to get the stops, that they have the depth, that they have everything that they need in terms of the star power. Now it's up to the West to kind of show that anyone can challenge them. in that capacity. And that's, that's kind of the mission of this off season in a lot of ways,

is which of these teams that's kind of close, that has dreams of contention, is really within range of the Nuggets right now. Yeah, I think the Nuggets are, I think Golden State is a good comparison for the Nuggets,

excuse me, for the simple fact that I don't see why the Nuggets can't win two titles in the next seven years, right? And the reason why I say Golden State is like that, because if they didn't get KD,

they wouldn't have won those two straight titles and basically should have, barring extremely terrible injury luck, won three straight titles and kicked everybody's asses up and down the court in between us. I think barring the KD move, they would have been right there in the contention and title race every single year. But, you know, things might not have break or they might have broken for them in certain years. And they probably could have gotten a title out of that KD stretch, even without getting KD. So I think for the next six or seven years,

to me they'll be in the mix, and that's because they have Nicola Yokic. And I don't see why what he's doing and the consistent dominance that he's going to provide offensively will be able to be adjusted to. Nobody thinks Steph Curry's been adjusted to. I think the quality and execution of his teammates

have sort of ebbed and flowed a little bit, and there's been that consistency of Draymond's excellence, in the postseason anyway, but what he does on defense. But, you know, nobody said, oh, Steph just, he just hasn't been as dominant as he was in the 73 win year. I'm like, I don't know. Last year, he looked every bit as dominant, you know.

Pretty freaking good. And these were years apart. So, yeah, to me, I do think they have the ability to be in the mix of title consention, conference finals, all of that, taking teams to the brink, all of that stuff for the next six, seven years. and there's no reason to doubt that. Now, there's only a few reasons to doubt that. I think we think about Murray killing this postseason,

becoming a bona fide star and all of that. But he had a pretty major injury, and, like, he came into the NBA with some knee issues starting, right? Then he finally blew out his knee or whatever, and he got to repair it, and he looked incredible during the playoffs, but you can't take his health for granted. and definitely truly cannot take Michael Porter's Jr.'s out for granted. So I think those things, those caveats aside, man, yeah,

I don't see why the Nuggets can't be at the forefront of championship conversations going forward. Yeah, I'm not sure how many vertebrae Porter has left. But I would say if he is reasonably healthy, they are built to last for a little while here, if only because they have those three guys under contract. And the trade, the very bizarre mid-finals pre-game four trade for more recent or upcoming draft picks as opposed to the 2029 one that they sent to the Thunder was almost an indication that like, yeah, we have a little bit of a window here.

It might get pretty difficult, maybe two to three to four years out in this new CBA. But like if we just cycle through rotation guys around them, if we get the seven or eight deep, whatever you want to say they were in this postseason, they can be in the mix here. I do think what's going to be interesting is next year. If only because we talked about this on the weekend show we did a couple days ago, I do think there were a couple teams as we laid out on that show just like worse off as opposed to some of the star trades than we expected. And so the West in particular was weaker than it had been. And I think it's almost a disservice to the nuggets that they,

ultimately didn't play one of those other teams that we thought that they were going to play, like a box or Celtics or even the Sixers, because I think it gives credence to this idea that they didn't beat anyone. Like, I think this, I think that like you could look at who they went up against this postseason. It's like they have to play who they went through. But the fact that they didn't beat the Celtics in the finals, I think there's at least a little bit of a shred of doubt that they didn't go up against, like even a five out team. that could have pushed them farther. Because if they had done that,

I don't even know if they would have lost necessarily, it would have just cleared the deck to where, like, they had answered every question. And I think that lingering question is at the very least going to give fuel to the fire of like, well, what about X?

There's always going to be a what about X. Sure, Rob, I'll let you go first. I'll let you go first. They beat the teams that beat those teams. Yeah. But that's not the same thing as saying that they beat the type of matchup that could have given them the most problems.

Let me ask the question in a different way. Do you think the Celtics would have had an easier time with the nuggets than the heat? I think the Celtics were... Like, seriously? Hold on. I think the Celtics were a better, a worse matchup for the nuggets than the heat were. But that's not what I add to you. What did you ask?

I think, yes, I think the Celtics match up better with the nuggets than the heat do. I'm talking about specific to the Celtics. do we think the Celtics would have had an easier time with the nuggets than they did the heat? That makes no sense to me. I don't think the heat match up better against the Celtics than the nuggets do conversely. Yeah.

Nobody thinks that. Like, nobody would, like, let's just say the heat, let's just put it in reverse. Let's just say the Celtics were already in the finals and the nuggets and the heat were duking it out in the conference finals. Nobody would have said the better match. for them is the Denver Nuggets. Not a single soul, and nobody would say that.

Yeah. I don't totally understand. So I'm just saying put the Celtics in the Nuggets position, meaning they were waiting in the conference finals, right? Sure. And the heat and the Nuggets are playing, and those are the two opponents that are waiting for the Celtics, the way it was for the Nuggets.

Nobody's analysis would have been like, yeah, the Celtics. would definitely rather face the Nuggets than the heat. Oh, yeah, no, I'm not even bringing this up to necessarily say the Nuggets wouldn't have beat the Celtics. I'm just saying the Celtics, they would have for the record. The type of team that the Celtics are is a worst matchup for the Nuggets. Like, we didn't see a five-out team being able to stretch Jokic. I would have loved to see that.

And I do think what I'm basically saying is like, that gives just like one shred of doubt, especially as you roll into a next season. And like, let's say the sun somehow come up with like the perfect. five out team. They finally get like five capable players like what happens then? And so going forward, I think that's the bigger question. You guys immediately jumped on this idea that like the nuggets are are being discredited. Because my thing is if you can't beat the heat, you can't beat the nuggets. Let me tell you. I'm sorry. You really can't. Straight up and down. If you cannot beat the Miami heat over the course of a seven game series, you will not, you cannot beat the Nuggets. You cannot beat the

Can I push back on that just briefly? I do think what led to the heat winning was it was a little bit more just like more about like emotional character stuff where it's like they were built for a playoff situation in the way that the bucks and the Celtics were not. Like as soon as they hit adversity, the heat thrive whereas the Celtics and the bucks do not. Now would that come to bear against the nuggets? Maybe. Probably. That's kind of the thing to me is like I think a lot of people. going into this postseason, you know, they were looking at Jamal's health situation,

wondering what he was going to be over the course of a long playoff run. They were thinking about this team in terms of, oh, this is a team that's been eliminated from the playoffs a couple of times when those rosters were short-handed because Murray or Porter was out. The reality is when you look back at the playoff record, Yokic and Murray have been absolute badass every time they've been in the postseason. They have had the kind of like mental toughness that the Celtics showed they did not. right the kind of focus the kind of discipline yes they make mistakes but they've been huge

in big moments they've executed against high level teams they have shown they can eviscerate a team with lebron james on it you know a team with lebron and a d a team with kd and devon booker like i don't know that the pedigree gets that much better than that and especially when you think i think the conversation with the celtics we get very celtics filled into the idea of what they are as a matchup and not what they are as a reality on the court The reality of what the Celtics are is a team that does not categorically, does not always have its shit together. And you expect that team to bring down the juggernaut we just saw roll through the West

and dismantle the heat. Look at the numbers. Look at the margins. Look at the loss total for this run. This is where things just get out of control, where I do feel like the hyperbole is getting so thick, where we take the results and we are just completely, ignoring the context of what happened.

I don't think we are. The West was very bad this year. See, I hate always being in this position of being like the Nuggets Hater, but you guys are just like so on one end of an extreme. Go with your points. And the East was very bad this year too. Like, I wish I had clipped and saved

all of like the type of things people are just rolling out there about like, this is like the start of the historic Nuggets run. This is one of the best of all time, yada, yet like are we just not even just going to like are we going to ignore the fact that like they played the timberwolves in the first round the sons had two good players and could barely even put together a third and that like the lakers were having to rely on a 38 year old lebron james it's like i don't want to take anything away from the nuggets i think they are a very good team they will be in this

mix going forward but to suggest that like this is some sort of like warriors like redox or something like that is just ridiculous. Like the Warriors beat the Cavs who were also one of the best teams of all time with LeBron James like in the prime of his fucking career. What happened in that first, what happened in that first Warriors run though? The first title.

What happened when they got to the finals? I don't understand your point. Kevin Love out, Kyrie Irving out. This is what championship runs look like is sometimes guys are injured, sometimes guys are old. You don't pick who you play. You just all the nuggets did was show up to every series and roll over everybody.

I don't know what to call that if not a juggernaut. My thing about the four, the like, oh, the 16 and four is a mirage. They lost four games in the playoffs. The Bucks lost four games to the heat. So like if you want to call the West week, cool, was the East strong? I don't understand this. What was the East then? It was weird, unfortunately, where that you had a couple of regular.

season, let's call them juggernauts because the Celtics and the Bucks were the best teams record-wise, just happened to have this very strange fatal flaw where someone as mentally tough as Jimmy could just get into their heads and absolutely obliterate them. And so, yeah, is that bad, but just in a different sense? Certainly. But I also think, like, one thing we should bring up is that, like, Jimmy was kind of a shell of themselves by the time he got to the finals. Like, going to seven against the Celtics seemed to sap his. of whatever just like magic that he had. Should have won in four like the homies did against the Lakers.

I mean, that would have been nice, right? Winning it four or perhaps six or five? I mean, so here's another thing about this toughness that is only unique to the heat that somehow, somehow the nuggets don't possess for coming through in every single fucking fourth quarter of every single series that they played. I was reading my man, Seth Pard now,

shouts to him, a friend of the show. and he was talking about the offensive rating on made baskets against the heat in the playoffs. Every other team they played combined had like a 95 offensive rating in the fourth quarter after heat made baskets.

Essentially just as suggesting that teams were kind of getting rattled by like what Miami would do in the fourth coming back from all these double digits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what Denver's was in the fourth after made baskets? 120. 20. One fucking 20 against the same freaking team that made all these dudes whimper and quake in their presence. And now I'm supposed to believe there's like, ah, yeah, those teams that stunk it up, that shit the bed, they would have been so good. Jimmy was so bad in game five that he would get past Jamal Murray and then all of a sudden act like he was in high school basketball where he just didn't know where just to throw the ball.

and he couldn't even draw a foul against Nicola Yokic. And I think what, I think that this is the issue in, in microcosm where people will be like, Nicola Yokic actually underrated defender who's one of the best defenders in the world. And you know what? He plays better defense in the playoffs. But we've seen Jimmy Butler before. We've seen him in the playoffs. We've seen him go up against Nicola Yokosch.

That was not prime Jimmy Butler. And so like, all I'm doing is saying, like, can we acknowledge the caveats rather than just like, into this myth that the fucking nuggets are unbeatable juggernauts with Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint guarding guarding the rim like come on no one is no one is saying they're an unbeatable juggernaud no they are not they are juggernaut they are juggernaut they are not unbeatable warriors no they are not that no you'd be insane to say that and the things that I will say is that nobody came into this season constructed their roster saying to themselves we have to beat the Nuggets, right?

And I think they were beneficiaries of that truth that nobody built a roster dedicated, put their minds together to being like, what are the Nuggets weaknesses, how can we build a roster that best exploits them, or how do we accentuate strengths that we already possess that will be better to beat the Nuggets?

That did not happen this season in the way that we saw it happen for the Warriors, the way we saw it happen for the Hedles, the way we saw it happen for other juggerers. I have no doubt in my mind. that that's true and that the Nuggets run is a beneficiary of that. However, they're going to kick people's asses next year again, and they're going to be damn hard to get out of the playoffs.

And I'd be shocked if they didn't make it to the conference finals again. And, like, I would be shocked if they, like, barring injury that they weren't competing in the postseason again. And everybody's saying the same shit, like, God damn, the Nuggets are really freaking good. I just, especially with the Jimmy Butler argument, or you could look at anyone over the course of the Nuggets run, anyone they played against and say, oh, that wasn't the best version of Kevin Durant, of LeBron James, of Jimmy Butler.

I think there's truth to it. I think in a lot of those cases, it's, you know what, there's just a difference between putting 6-4 Drew Holiday on Jimmy Butler and 6-9 Aaron Gordon on Jimmy Butler, where he's not going to bite on, he's not going to bite on pump fakes, he's going to have a hand in his face every time. and all of a sudden Jimmy's getting into the paint and he looks a little shook to your point. He looks like he doesn't quite know what to do. I think the Nuggets had a lot more to do with that

than you do, Justin. And I, you know, obviously there's the ankle injury. Obviously there's him running out of steam by the end of a long run where Jimmy Butler had to do a lot to get the heat to this point. Nicole Yokic had to do a lot to get the Nuggets to the finals too. And in every finals game, that dude is durable as hell.

Underrated thing about Yokich very rarely gets injured. Honestly, plays a lot of games, He plays heavy menace, huge workload, was absolutely relentless and just solved everything. And I want to say one last thing towards them. We could move on to the next thing. Specific to the Celtics and Bucks, who I've watched a lot over the last three, four years.

At the end of close games, the Nuggets run their two men with Yokic and Murray that even you, Justin can admit, is fucking hard to stop. It's hard to be. it's hard to stop. What the fuck do the Celtics run when they're in trouble? What the fuck do the bucks run when they're in trouble?

Nonsense. That's why they get beat all the time. That's why they're always embarrassing themselves all the time. That's why I'm like, I don't want to hear about those specific teams. If you want to say the Sons, that's a little bit of something different. Because there's a certain level specifically on offense that Phoenix between Devin Booker and KD, where I'm like, you know what? I can see those guys get into a level of offensive execution,

reliability, unflappability, in big spots. I can see them potentially hitting that level in a series against the Nuggets. The Celtics and the Bucks have never displayed that, ever. Never? In big moments that they got, they have an offense that is consistent, that you consistently feel like what they're doing out there on offense is something they can go to over and over again.

Hell no. Come on. Bucks want a title. We were probably having this exact conversation about the Bucks in which people were just like, oh man, the Bucks, yada, yeah. I'll say this. I find what's happened to the Bucks post title

to be alarming. Like I think that's like giving me more pause to want to anoint the Nuggets or any team as like the next X, Y, Z. And I would like to just like, I told myself we weren't going to have this conversation. I want to say you guys baiting me into this. Oh, yeah.

I have it right here on the document. General Nuggets, yay talk, during which I will try as much as humanly possible not to say anything negative. You know what else you have on the doc? FML. The doc literally says FML. And further down, Justin has also written,

will people stop shadow boxing straw men suggesting that Nicola Yokic and the Nuggets are hated and or disrespected? And yet, me and Waz are out here. Jab, Jab, Uppercut. I don't know what to say. I would like to just settle this by circling back to my original point. I am not saying that the Nuggets wouldn't beat the Celtics or the Bucks.

All I'm saying is it would have been nice had they played them in the final because that would have removed any shred of doubt from what we saw in the finals. That's all. I don't really have a shred of doubt, but let's keep them moving. Let's go to Yokic now. Let's completely flip this. script here because the one thing I am noticing already happening with our friend Yokic is that there's already a rush to one, just concern troll about why he isn't a bigger star. And two,

simultaneously, nothing but videos about his weirdo comments about not wanting to go to a parade or just like smash cuts of like him basically not wanting to engage in celebrity or even press conference questions at all. And so what I'm wondering, is this the start of the next pop Marshawn Lynch sort of thing where Yokic quickly becomes... I like the cross-racial there, by the way, Jess.

Thank you. I did that for you. Are we going to get into a situation where Yokic is so much of a not star that people find it so endearing that he is actually going to be a star despite his better wishes? Like an anti-celebrity, effectively. Right.

He is the next anti-hero. He is basically justified. We're going to get him a hat. I think there is some of that. I think people are charmed by how little he cares about some of the trappings of NBA life. I don't, I think there's obviously a ceiling on like how widely public you can be, right? Like even guys like Janice, who I think are, especially to a certain point in his career, Janus was pretty guarded with the media, did not really engage in a lot of interviews,

even in press conferences didn't really do much. And then all of a sudden there was kind of this turning point where he considered himself as like more of a spokesperson and a leader for the team in that particular capacity. And there's reasons why he thought that was appropriate or necessary or not. Yokic does not see that as part of his job. And that's part of the reason why, you know, Jamal Murray can be vocal.

The veterans on the team can be vocal. Michael Malone, I think carries a lot of that in terms of like, as a very vocal coach who's willing to explain and over-explain lots of different things. But look, you're not going to. be a household name necessarily, no matter how great a player you are, if you're Nicola Yokic and you continue to like play to your personality in terms of what you want your day-to-day life to be like. And that's okay. It just is going to change how we think about him as a star.

And honestly, my favorite moments in all the playoffs and all the finals and all the media kind of part of that, there were times where Yokic on the press conference stage almost like tricked himself into giving like very good, deep, thoughtful, deconstructive answers. Like when people, you know, he gets asked over and over about his stat lines, about the level of production that he had in the games, these unprecedented numbers he puts up. He says he doesn't care about it. I genuinely believe that. I don't think it really matters to him, like the specifics of those numbers. But there were times where in answering the questions about that, he would start to explain like some of the cultural differences in terms of like how, you know, players in Europe think about the box score and like what they value and how they approach the game.

talking about like the modern NBA specifically and almost the like Instagramification or like social media posting like here's like points rebounds assists like this this kind of very quick encapsulation of what a player is and then it's almost like he would realize he's engaging with the idea rather than giving the reporters what they want which is an interchangeable quote to just like plug into their story right after they rattle off his stat line it's just it's he doesn't want to participate in that conversation in terms of like I'm going to you know do this post game thing to give you you guys filler for what you're trying to do to do your jobs. And that's a little inconvenient for us in the media sometimes, but honestly, I respect it. And maybe that's feeding into your point, Justin. Maybe I'm only going to have more and more begrudging respect for the fact that Nicole Yokic doesn't want to answer our questions, doesn't really want to, like, be party to that. And who could blame him? If he's going to show up and play like this, I don't think there's really anything to take

away from it. So I'm of a bit of a different mind than Rob on this. I think the means. Media needs to be better about thinking about what makes this guy interesting fun than his game. We need to be smarter about making this guy more interesting and fun. However, what would that look like? I don't know. So, like, for instance, like, Janus, what I think is interesting about Janus is that, one, he's been an immigrant twice.

Yeah. And two, he's a black guy. Three, the freaking NBA is a quote unquote a black league, but he's an outsider even within that culture. I think there's ways to talk about Janus that are way more interesting than this. Like I talk to Nigerian people all the time. They feel like he doesn't rep enough. I think people have kind of calmed down on that shit, which I thought was bullshit from the start. But just the idea that this black guy's nickname is the Greek freak and all of that.

I think there are interesting things about Janus that we could do all over the place, whatever. But I think with Yokic, he needs to be more participatory. I really truly feel that way. Because I think the whole fucking act of pop in that crew in San Antonio and what they did ultimately is bad for business. It's bad for the players and the coaches and the league because they don't make as much money when one of the best teams nobody gives a shit about. Okay.

So it's bad for them on the business side. It's bad for us as media. It's easy to say that. Nobody wants to read your fucking spurs. or listen to your Spurs podcast because these dudes are wholly uninterested. So we can talk about how self, we can be self

interested in that, like, it's bad for media and it's bad for the fans. The fans should want to care about these things. And so I think Yolkich needs to, look, not everybody's going to be LeBron. That dude is uncommonly

adept at engaging these media stories, narratives, tropes, all of that stuff. But you got to do more than what Yokic is doing. If you're going to be the best player in the league, you're going to be on one of the marquee teams, allegedly, in the league. You have to do more. I'm not saying he got to be LeBron, though.

It's an interesting contrast between, you know, he's a guy who's a very unselfish player, a very unselfish teammate. But in this way, what he's doing is focused on self. I don't really want to do this. It's not something that I get a lot of joy out of. It's an inconvenience to me. And personally speaking, if you told Yokic, you never have to do media again, but as a result, the league is a, you know, the revenue of the league comes down a little bit. The BRI comes down a little bit. Your $270 million contract is now a $200 million contract. Is that okay with you? Honestly, I think it might be. Like, yeah, but that's not the framing. The framing is, is it's Smith's deal is now going to be $250,000, bro. Are you cool with that? This is where like the collective, like, you are all.

pouring into not just the basketball brotherhood, but the shared responsibility to make the NBA bigger than just like a bunch of players playing basketball, right? You are ambassadors, you are spokespeople, you are representatives of the league at a certain level, and I think responsible for its maintenance and its growth. Yeah, so I want to get back to the honest thing. I definitely think that some of the topics that you're bringing up was part of it is maybe it's just like we have a largely white media like base and they aren't capable of telling those stories. I definitely think there's a lot of truth to that. I also think part of it, though, is that's a very specific and, like, a type of story you need to be very meticulous and considered

about. And it's not the type of story that Janus is going to want to retell over and over again and go through that over and over. It's kind of the type of thing where he gets it out all at once. And I think he's done this before, in part on, like, a woged it, like a whole podcast series about it. And it's not the type of thing that also shout out Mirren Fader's book who dives into all this immigrants. story specifically in detail all layers of it. And I think she did an incredible job with it. Sure. I think it's the type of thing that matters, but I don't know how many times you can keep circling back to it. I think it's more about like giving us content on a day to day basis. And I almost wonder if Yokic being like a weirdo, a serbic and like just like not wanting to

engage in that, that's actually the type of thing that could feed the content machine in a way that I don't know if like even a Janus can. I also think a big part of this is like, Yokic hasn't been on a final stage until just now. And I do think if you want to fall back on the mom test, for instance, Yokic is just getting to that point where like a large segment of like even sports adjacent people are getting clued into him. And like, so I want to circle back to like Dan Lebertar. I mentioned this on last week's podcast that like he mentioned like, oh, people hate Yokic, yada,

I'm like, I don't think a large enough amount of people actually know enough about Yokish because they haven't been exposed to him. To that point, like Larry Bird, for instance, which is like a lot of people are using Bird as a comp, at this point in his career had been to the finals five times and had won three, and I think had been to the conference finals pretty much every other time.

Like, it's about exposure partly. And like if you really want to dig into it, I do think part of this is like... Justin, before you got to the NBA, go ahead. But Larry Bird had already played in the... What's still the most watched basketball game ever. before you even got to the league. I think part of this is like we have leaned so much on LeBron for so long.

And LeBron has been in the finals for so long. Guys haven't even had the opportunity to carve out space in the zeit guys for people that aren't just like hardcore weirdos like us that do this every day. Like I do think like if Yoko starts to win, I think that alone will help him in whatever like face of the league conversation that we're talking about. Well, I think the face of the league conversation, look, when we think about what the post-Lebron NBA is going to look like, in basketball terms, I think we're in great hands.

There's incredibly talented players. There's an incredibly diverse, like, style of play throughout the league from team to team, guys like Yokic, but you also, you know, you still have your Steph Curry, as you have your Luca Donchis, you have your Jason Tatums, you have so, like, great variety of basketball play. But there's no one on that ambassadorial level who's willing to entertain, entertain political questions, you know, even if he means stepping in it sometimes, who's willing to kind of take on that responsibility that LeBron did.

And maybe it's not reasonable to expect anyone, any one person to do that. I think LeBron is a singular personality in that way. But Yolkich certainly has no interest in doing it. I think that's fine. But there are costs to that. Well, can I ask a question? We're not going to ask Yokich about BLM, man. We just can't do it.

We just can't do it. Well, how much does that matter, though? Like a look at like for instance Tom Brady is Tom Brady all that interesting A person? No if anything He's a fucking like bat shit insane person Who just happens to like conceal who he really is Because he wouldn't want to get that out

He's more like Tom Cruise than anyone He just won a lot Just love the movies I think I think one It's not enough for the NBA and media machine To be participating honestly Obviously Michael Jordan is the most extreme version of this But as I'm coming up watching who

Of course NBA, NBC is propagandizing me about Mike, but so was Gatorade, so was Nike, so was Haynes, so was McDonald's. So, like, everybody's invested in the propagandizing of the public when it comes to these sports figures. I don't know that the media machine and the brand machines work that way to sort of help the NBA and help us in media tell these guys' stories and and sort of feed the machine. I hope we can. But I do, look, man,

I used to kind of chuckle at, you know, reporters getting quote unquote popped by Popovich. And then, you know, I kind of grew up and realized that shit is immature, unprofessional and ridiculous. And it's hurting our game. And I really don't, I really think guys need to take more ownership in their responsibility.

And just like, and Chuck says it all the time. Like, this dude did everything. He talked to everybody. He understood that he was part of a larger project, and it wasn't just about him. And the reason why guys like LeBron and Nicola could come in and get $200 million deals is because of the work that was done before them. You know, like the reason why these rights deals are what they are and the reason why you can go out and get a Nike check and do all these other things is because of what guys

did before you. Without a doubt. So, yeah, I do think as much as I love Yoakitchen, what he's about as a team, teammate as an employee, all of that stuff, I think he needs to step up. Obviously, he's not going to do this shit overnight. He's not going to become some incredible spokesperson, right? Like, just think about, like, immigrant people who became very famous in America, like, Jackie Chan.

He ain't going to be Jackie Chan tomorrow. That'd be ridiculous, right? But I think he should be working towards something like that, for sure. Should we take our role as potential propagandists more seriously? Should we come out like first 10 minutes of every pod? Just like Nicole Yokic was out here like chopping down trees with one arm, throwing logs over his shoulder. Some real Palm Bunyan shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's been in the podcast for the past four months with you guys. What the fuck you're talking about? I would say that's just facts, Justin. And honestly, but honestly, you know, the real problem is that we can't like, you know, get xenophobic and like, you know, tie him to the Soviets. You know what I mean? Like, if we could do that, the Americans would get behind it.

Or they would get behind it right away. They'd be like, fuck those foreigners. Fuck them. That would be so easy to rally the American people behind. Man, don't you miss the Cold War, guys? I'm just seeing Waz out here really pulling the puppet strings of the American people. He knows what levers to pull. I will say, uh, based on the data, playoffs, viewership.

was up, finals was down, I really could not care less. But I think it's instructive. I do think like the fact that the earlier rounds of the playoffs were so good, I think is encouraging going forward. And if the Nuggets become the dominant team of a like a competitive league more so than like just Warriors calves every year, I think I think that would be probably the best for it. I still believe in like the results often dictate a lot of what we're talking about. And then it's all about like celebrity shit that no one understands. And if anything, it's like all going to TikTok. And literally none of us know anything about that, except for a TikTok.

Yeah, I think ultimately, if Yokic turns out to be like this generation's Tim Duncan, that's still a pretty chill outcome. You know, if he's going to be a great player all the time, yes, there will be tradeoffs. But I mean, I'm certainly going to enjoy watching it. I think Denver fans are certainly going to read the rewards of that. But just like, could you imagine what it would have been like watching the Spurs if Tim Duncan were more like KG, that would have been incredible.

You know? But, you know. I think the hope is that Embed is that guy, right? Like, you know, more outward facing personality. We'll see if he delivers like some of these other all-time grades do. I think he's the counter where he just hasn't won enough. And thus people have kind of tuned to him out as things have gone on. Okay, let's move along here because we're like 50 minutes into this pod.

Good Lord. Because you took so long debating whether the Nuggets would have maybe lost to the Celtics, even though that wasn't the question I asked. All right, let's talk about Murray in his place in here because I think it's interesting. We do this top 125 player rankings. Rob is a big part of this. And in our last edition, the last one for this season, Murray starts at 47, coming off an injury. You really need to prove a lot coming to the season.

That's the beginning of our ranking, to be clear, not our previous update. Yeah, January. Yeah. He is now number 16. vaulting past all sorts of guys, Darren Fox, etc., James Harden, so on.

That seems a little high for me. Yeah. You know, I definitely think he's in that probably range, but that seems high. Where's Murray now, Rob? And since you participated

in this ranking, like, are you like he is clear-cut future all-MBA, future All-Star, all the stuff that like he was just on the verge of, this guy's got it? Or is he slightly below that?

I would be shocked if he's not an all-star next season. I think he's going to be in the all-NBA running, provided he hits the games played threshold and stuff like that. He isn't perfect as a player, but I think relative to even these other stars, he does a lot of the things and has a lot of the kind of intangible qualities that you want star guards to have.

He's awesome and tough situations. He doesn't turn the ball over very much, wildly productive in the playoffs, and makes the best players on his team better. And I think one of the reasons he ended up where he did. And he kind of, he hit his ceiling for me at 16. Any more than that, I think we're maybe getting a little ahead of ourselves. But number 15 on our list is Donovan Mitchell.

And that was a debate point for us, especially me and Michael Pino, we're going back and forth on this at the finals. But how you compare those guys, you know, on one hand, Murray, who has shown up every playoff run, who only gets better and better in the playoffs, Mitchell, who has had great playoff moments, but overall has kind of shown what his limitations can be. I think where it gets tough is like it's very hard to separate Murray, who is an awesome player in terms of like understanding what his neutral value is when he plays along Nicola Yokic all the time.

And it's hard to know what he would be in a situation like Mitchell's. My ultimate thought is that if you flip their positions, Murray would probably do worse running something like the Cavs offense than Mitchell did. and I think Mitchell wouldn't be as perfect alongside Yokic as Murray is, but he would still be pretty great. But I think the fact that you can have that conversation out is proof of the class that Murray has ascended to. We are now talking about him with guys like Donovan,

with guys like John Morant, with guys like Deerrin Fox, guards who have sensational play, sensational moments, have been able to carry teams to really good records and really good effect. Jamal Murray feels like that kind of player to me. I mean, Waz, where are you on Murray after, after this long run. So I, but people

have been bringing up the he hasn't made any All-Stars. You can look it up. He's never deserved to be on an All-Star team. It's just never been the case. When All-Star votes get tabulated

at no point in his career, was he in late January as good as the guys that got picked ahead of him resume-wise? Another thing that I will say, I've never seen. seen him be as consistently individually brilliant as Mitchell and Morant.

True. Okay? Those are true things. I do not know that within the team concept, either one of those two dudes are better than Jamal Murray. I don't know that that's necessarily the case. They possess individual brilliance that would suggest that they have more talent than this dude. And, you know, if they played basketball in a vacuum where it was just like,

go ahead and beat that dude that's right in front of you, I would probably give the edge to Mitchell and Morant. But in the five-man concept, these dudes do not play better than him. They have not, they, I shouldn't say this. They have not played better than him in the biggest games of their lives. Right. Like when you consider the biggest games Murray's ever been in to the biggest games Morant and Mitchell have been in,

he's been better than them. I don't, you know, at the same time, I've never, ever seen Mitchell go four games in a row with tennisists. That's never in the history of his life happened. Certainly on the NBA finals. He's still a tunnel vision kind of player. I've completely soured on Mitchell, honestly. Like, I went from thinking that he was, like, nipping on the edges of the Lucas and the steves and sort of obviously not in that class of the dames and all of that, but nipping on the edges to just like, I don't know. know if you can rely upon him to be your best offensive player and actually accomplish

great things. I don't know. I think ultimately I probably side with you guys. Like he's a little bit underneath Mitchell in overall talent. He has a sort of lower floor than Mitchell does. And I think a lot of his success is based on what Yokic is doing. I really do. Can we go through an exercise that we tend to do in order to figure out these rankings,

which is to compare two like players. Jamal Murray or Shea Gildas Alexander. Shea. Shea. She's way big in him. I would agree. Jamal Murray or Donovan Mitchell. I think it depends on what kind of team you have ultimately, but in a neutral across-the-board context, I still take Mitchell slightly.

Mitchell and the Nuggets, I guess he wouldn't be asked to pass to anybody, so except for the easiest reason. Yeah, maybe I probably take Mitchell. Yeah, sure. I think I would agree. Barely. Devin Booker.

Yes. Or Murray? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think Devin Booker's like, like he's on the Steph Dane level when he's on his shit. Like for me, from what I've seen, you know, the last two months, I'm like, damn. I'm on the Booker train right now.

So, yeah. I agree. And I think Fox. Fox is the interesting kind of demarcation point, at least for. me. Box is really good, but I'm taking Jamal Murray, man. Yeah. I'm taking Jamal Murray between Bubble Murray and 2023,

Murray, like, I think that's an easy call for me, playoff wise. This overall playoff run, Jamal Murray, 26.6 rebound, seven assists, 47, 40, 93 splits. Like, that's big time stuff. And even comparing him to other stars and all stars, like there's a lot of guys who just could not do that over the course of four rounds.

What about Moran? Moran or Murray? I mean, I know who I'd feel more comfortable betting the future of my franchise around. Yes, but I don't think you could make, I don't think you could make Murray the focal point of an offense,

the offense in Memphis, the way you have Moran. I think Moran's just, he's a better individual. He's better. That one, I don't know. I think, for one, I think Jamal,

for all his flaws, is a better defender than John Morant. He tries me harder. I think he accentuates what other players do more effectively than Jah does sometimes. I think there, look, ultimately, Jaws a sensational player can carry a lot on his shoulders, but he bumps up into a pretty hard playoff ceiling right now in terms of what a Jah Morant offense can be.

And I think the same would be true of a Jamal Murray offense, but the difference is Jamal has that like Paul George quality where what he ultimately might be is like one of the best second guys in the NBA. And I don't know that. that Jah will ever have the skill set or game where he's comfortable and productive doing that. Yeah, I just think when Jaws on the floor, though, defenses change who they are and what they want to do. He bends the defense to his will, you know, in a way that Jamal Murray just would not do outside of a Nicola Yolkich context. Like, that's not a thing that would happen.

So I'm afraid. So I'm afraid. because I don't run away from the fire. Oh dear. It's Jalen Brown or Jamal Murray. I'm taking Jamal Murray. Wow. I think if you had told me in a vacuum like who you want starting your team.

I'm taking Jaylen Brown. Yeah, I got to take Jaylen Brown. If only because of the defensive potential. He's six, six, I can't. I can't pass up on these huge, these bigger guys. I get it. It doesn't have to dribble as much next to Yokic. Yeah, you do.

You still have to drill. You still are running dribble handoffs. You do. You do have to dribble. You do have to. One dribble. Two, maybe. I'll say this.

Jamal Murray would not have gone down like Jalen Brown did. Would not have gone down like that. And that means something to me. Like, I think there is obviously an incredible value in the size and the strength and the switchability and the shooting that Jalen can give you when he's at his best. But I don't know. Like, Jamal Marie is a galvanizing player and an incredible shot maker.

in a way that Jalen Brown right now is just not. Also, you wonder what Jalen Brown could be if he dedicated himself to being a specific kind of teammate. I think, like, that's the thing that kind of separates people a lot of times. You know, they always say we want to get young guys in the playoffs. It's like, yeah, he can go into the offseason and dedicate himself to being a specific kind of playoff performer. Whereas a young guy who's never been,

he doesn't even know what his deficiencies in the playoffs are going to be. He doesn't even know when he's going to get picked on four possessions in a row by the opposition for. Like, he doesn't know. So I wonder if Jalen Brown was like, I got to dedicate to being the best teammate that Nicola Yokic could have what he could be. Who knows, right? I just love a six-eighth. Would he ever do that? Like, they're an interesting comp because Tatum and Brown are legitimately, one of the other pairings that's been together even remotely as long-term, my turn, offense.

I mean, look, there were some interesting stats floating around during the. the finals about the number of times that Yokic and Murray assist one another versus the number of times that guys like, for example, Tatum and Brown do. And some of that is positional. Sometimes that's the fact that they don't run as many like direct pick and roll handoff type actions. There's a lot of reasons why that is true. But what's in arguable is that Murray and Yokatch complement each other in ways that Tatum and Brown do not. And I think some of that is position. And some of that is the fact that they've been given time and they've shown the interest to grow in ways that complement each other. And I think that's to Jamal Murray's incredible

credit. He's never been a guy who's like, I'm going to demand ball in my hands, spread offense. I'm going to run, pick and roll, and I'm going to decide everything. He's been willing to give it up. He's been willing to play a role that other star guys are not. And it makes him very effective and malleable and flexible within offenses like Denver's, which can flex and move any kinds of ways. Yeah. I think some of this is also recency bias, which I think is why it's such an interesting thing because of course. I mean, Brown was awful at times in the playoffs, but how much is that is because of the hand versus like just other stuff that he tends to struggle with. Totally fair.

Showing up again. All right. Let's jump to the heat quickly because I don't want to get out of this pot before we talk about them. How much do we think this is repeatable? Because on the one hand, I almost feel like this is an outlier, just magical, one of the craziest runs we've seen in history. And it kind of got overlooked at times in the finals just because the heat kind of whimpered

out of these playoffs. versus like the fact that they kind of have done similar things in the past. It's like they did make it to the conference finals and the bubbles and all this other stuff. They pushed the Celtics to seven. And so I have no idea what to do with the heat. If you guys are like, no, they're going to be in the playing again next year or you're like, probably going to be back in the NBA finals, I would probably believe either argument at this point. I think what makes it hard to project them is even if you asked their own players in February,

I don't think they would have expected to be in the finals. They are not the kind of team where they believed internally and all of us outside did not. I think they were as shaken by their play as anybody. And uncertainness, like, why aren't we the team that we used to be? Why aren't we performing at the level we expect to? And maybe that speaks to the larger effect here, which is the heat, have grown accustomed to the fact that they can plug and play guys and reach pretty elite results, consistently get to the NBA finals more than almost any team out there right now. Whether you're talking about getting to the deep stages of the playoffs, they're a pretty decent bet, no matter how much talent they have on their roster.

And so the question of whether this is replicable, look, our job in analyzing that gets significantly easier if all of a sudden there's one more star on this team or even just a couple more talented role players on this team because they have absolutely proven they can fill the gaps and plug guys in and make a workable rotation out of almost anything. it's just like a lot hangs on Jimmy Butler's shoulders to get drag you all the way to the finish line in the playoffs if he doesn't have a little bit more shot creation help. Yeah, I think three out of four conference finals

suggest some repeatability. Pretty freaking good. That's pretty damn good when you consider y'all's MVP has never made it once in his life. I think that speaks to just how good they are, truly. And I think watching them play in the playoffs, dude,

and Spoh being known as a defensive coach, but the crispness and precision of the offense that these dudes run is quite impressive, man. There is a level of calculation, ruthless efficiency to what they're trying to do on offense that most teams do not possess. So I think that's going to be hard to guard, no matter what.

And of course, they're going to bring the defense because it's Spow and it's the heat and it's the culture. And I just think if they do make some roster improvements, they're going to be damn good again. The only thing that I will say

as a drawback is like, it's not only is Jimmy like 34 now, Tom Tibado had his hooks in him in the early parts of his career. Like, God damn, has that been a death knell for everybody? I mean, like, dude, Like, go down the damn list of those bulls.

Joaquin, Derek Rose, Luwold Dang. Like, all of these guys' careers have not been, like, flourishing in the late periods of it. I think even Joaquin, he was bad prematurely. Like, those injuries killed him prematurely to the point where I thought the Knicks signed him to a good deal when they got this dude. And he stunk up the joint from the beginning of that bad deal, right? And so you wonder about that part of it. But if Jimmy can stay reasonably healthy, man, I think they could be right there again. Why not?

Yeah. So it really is two paths going forward. You would assume that the heat are going to do something this offseason. The way the contracts align, it just seems like they are in prime position to strike this offseason. They have Lowry on an expiring. Although, like, I think there's a fair conversation to be had. Like, how much was Lowry just, like, juicing that second union, like a part?

of their big success both season. They have Jimmy Bam and then Heroes extension kicks in. Shrews, Vincent, love all free agents. I think you can either go down the star path and really swing for the fences, although not only this off season do some of the restrictions of the new CBA kick in, but the following off season is when the big boy penalties start to kick in. Like you can't basically move outside of the arena without being like shocked by a cattle prong at that point.

or do you think there's like enough here rolling back some of it like maybe replacing a shrews if he gets a big deal with the next two a guy from from kalamazoo wherever and just like rolling forward and maybe just shoring up that power forward position where it's like hey we cycled through like 20 guys this post season if we just had someone like a kail kuzma or or like above average shooting power forward is this team at that level good enough to just roll this back and have similar results well i think the good news is that they showed during this run that Tyler Hero could be a means

to obtain such a player. If you just take what else you had and plug in... Because of the bucket hats, people would want that on their sideline. It's a value ad, as we all know. Bucket hats and white shades. Just the collection of bucket hats.

I have to say, it wasn't just like one or two. The sheer variety. It's true. Versatile. I'm concerned. There's a lot of time on TikTok. I'll tell you that. Someone has to do it.

but yeah if they were just able to trade him for another valuable rotation player preferably someone as you said with a little bit of size that version of the team i think is going to be pretty good where i get a little concerned is like max shrews gave benson both being free agents it does have a whiff of the like dion waiters kelly olinick tyler johnson let's pay all the guys to come back heat free agent class um especially after kind of like a magical run here where those guys were really effective and really very very very very very very valuable. And so I do have some concerns about it, but Miami, as we talked about before,

has an incredible capacity to get out of what we conceive of as overpaid deals or as deals that like, I'm not quite sure how the team would be able to build around having these role players on these large contracts. And yet, over and over again, they're able to flip them to other places. They're able to turn them into, you know, two and three players, several of which end up being valuable for them or their own ways. The fact that they can look at players in other situations, G-League or otherwise, and find value where other teams don't, I think speaks to their ability to even maximize some of the deals they sign that we don't necessarily like down the line. So I'm not overly concerned about their future.

I think they will find ways to win. I think they will find ways to have an effective rotation. It just gets so much easier if you are able to either swing a hero trade or, you know, flip Kyle Lowry's contract for a player of significant value or just find some other way to go star hunting because players do want to come to Miami still. And in some of those situations, including getting Jimmy Butler in the first place, he didn't have to give up that much to land Jimmy Butler. You know, some of those deals just kind of worked out that way.

If a player has a very clear interest. The owners hate signing trade. So that's going to be tougher to execute going down the line. Well, and they're just going to get harder under the new CBA too, regardless of, of anybody's preferences. Well, Wise, let me ask you this. So you're Pat Riley. You've got a lot of rings.

Your hair is slicked back and have a fine Gucci suit on you. Pretty much basically what you look like on a standard Friday night in New York. Right, right. Actually, just the very usual pod recording, if we're being honest. Exactly. Absolutely. So you have your big board of options you can go chasing. How would you rank these?

Damien Lillard, Bradley Beale, Carl Anthony Towns, or even just like someone that I didn't mention there. I think Damian Lillard is number one with a bullet because of all the people that you just named, he is an actual game changer. Like his ability to make defenses react in panicky ways. Like Brad Bill and Carl Towns just don't do that. They're wonderful offensive players, but they just don't do that. And more importantly than that, and like, could you imagine Carl Towns in my opinion? Like his temperament.

He would be, he would completely change. He would just have like five earrings on each ear. He would have tattoos everywhere. He would be a badass within five months. He's the deep voice register of Carl Towns all the time now. I think temperamentally, Dane makes the most sense with that crew. He's the most like business minded as far as his approach to his craft. You know what I'm saying?

Like he's the most professional guy of that crew. So I think dames should definitely be number one. He also seems pretty into the idea of playing there. You know, it was a very like, man, very NBA players are just like us moments. Justin, you were just asking Watts to power rank these options. Damian Lillard was asked on that. I think it was a showtime show. If you were hypothetically traded to these teams, how would you power rank them?

And Miami was the number one choice. On his face. He seemed very happy to entertain the idea of being a member of the Miami Heat for what that's worth. And also, And the person that I would say next after that, because like, Towns, I just, I don't know. I don't know how if you're Miami, you do something like that. And again, you already have BAM. The guy's, it's not just his Timberman, his defense.

It's just, I just can't see that working. But to me, Kuzma would be an incredible fit because the Struz, Caleb Martin, archetype, Coos is already that player, but does way more. He just has way more of a track record of doing stuff with the. ball in his hands. He's a hustle guy. He's not a shut down defender now, but he's a high effort guy, high IQ guy. I think Kuz would be a beautiful fit in Miami, to be honest. Yeah. Can I throw out someone in the Kuzma realm as well? Let's say Lillard gets traded elsewhere. The heat swoop in, sign in trade, Jeremy Grant. Rob, love it. Absolutely love it. Look, I'm an easy,

I'm an easy mark. I feel like he's more expensive than Kuzma, but like, yeah, for all the reasons I named, he's just as good, if not better than Kuzma, at that role that he would be filling. And guess what, man? Like, Caleb Martin and Max Trues don't dribble the ball because they kind of don't want to.

Like, they know they're not really that good at it. And, you know, we saw every time Duncan Robinson put the ball on the foot. Jeff Fank, he was like, whoa, wait, hold on. What the hell? hell is going on? Like, but again, like, those opportunities will be there for you to run dribble handoffs

and different kind of things to be involved in the offense. This is not some, like in the playoffs, yes, Jimmy ups his usage percentage. But, like, he generally doesn't even want to do that, right? And so, yeah, there's going to be opportunities for people like Grant who in the past have, you know, sort of carped about a role and a disagreement about it and this and that. So, yeah, I think that would be a beautiful fit. And to bring the whole final situation full circle, Grant has a little bit of that Aaron Gordon quality

in terms of he's shown he can do the things you're talking about, well, as offensively, he's shown he can carry a big load on a lesser team. And so in a moment where the defense is shifting away from him, he has that capacity to step in and be an overqualified third option for your team. If you just think about like, we were talking about moving Kevin Love into the starting lineup for them just as a way to get size and the fact that they needed that size, to survive. What if that size is a much longer, much more athletic, much more versatile

offensive player in Jeremy Grant, Jeremy Grant, who also is a very good shooter from the perimeter, can mimic what Love does and then a lot more. Man, a player like that would be really valuable for Miami. Yeah, I love that. Come be the guy that we needed in the finals and that like, you're not going to be the guy all the time, but you are going to be the guy we need to get over the hub. That's a good sales pitch. All right, before we go here, we do have some non-finals related news. As the draft draws near next week on Thursday, it's starting to seem like the Pelicans potentially maybe would be considering trading our friend Zion Williamson. I think the initial reports were basically that the Pelicans were looking at moving into the two, three range with eyes

on Scute Henderson. I think part of that could be just that the Pelicans are looking at the new CBA and saying like, oh, we've got a lot of contracts stacked up here, especially after signing CJ McCollum to that extension, which I definitely panned as soon as it happened, and I've got receipts for that one as well. But how much of this is also, you know, the fact that they are slowly and steadily getting

pretty tired of the Zion experience, was, where are you, if you're in the Pelicans front office? So now you've downshifted from the Gucci to perhaps something more off the rack. Are you basically like, nah, I need to get rid of this guy, can't win with them, doesn't play,

or are you more worried that if we get rid of this guy and somehow he does play and becomes the player we all know he can be like that is going to haunt us forever and we can't do that? If I'm the Pelicans front office, I'm not getting off of Zion because he is head and shoulders the best player on my team.

And I have him under contract. His extension hasn't even freaking kicked in yet. And so I'm not getting rid of that dude until I give this a couple more spins on the good old wheel of fortune. However, he's only head and shoulders the best player on my team when he actually plays,

availability, being the best ability, all of those freaking stupid cliches and all of that. And so therefore, it's my belief as was, the podcaster, and not in my capacity as Griff's replacement, that he should be a trade candidate for that fact alone.

he should be up for trade as a possibility on the merits. He hasn't played. He doesn't play. There's no indication that he's going to play. His off-court life, both conditionally what he's doing with his body and other things that he's doing with his body are off-the-charts problematic, okay? And concerning. And so, yeah, like, you don't get the feeling that. You know, again, not to bring it back to Yokic, but like, you know, you hear these stories where he's doing these freaking ridiculously intense workouts after every game because it's just his routine.

He thinks this is how he gets better. This is how he stays in shape. There's another guy who struggled with his fucking body. I'm watching this dude rutt huff it up and down the freaking court in the most high intensity games of the season. So it's like, what's anybody's excuse him? If I look at that dude and he can get his conditioning to that. extent, and there's no indication that Zion is doing that. And then you hear about the management that's around him.

And it's just like, I don't know, the reasons are piling up that you want to just get off the asset. But for me, I would personally be like, yo, the dude's extension hasn't kicked in yet. We've smartly put protections for ourselves within that contract. He's so easily our best player when he's out there, man. Like it's not a one-two type of thing. He's the number one guy on the team. And there were moments this season where it looked like, yo, we could really compete

with people. Justin Vary even thought we were going to the finals. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, man. Like, no, I'm not trading them if it's me, but I see the vision. Well, Justin said anyone could beat the Nuggets. So, I mean, why not the Pelicans, too? The Hornets, yeah.

The G-League Ignite. Overtime Elite. I think you're right, though, to separate your capacity as podcaster versus general manager because that's kind of where this conversation splits apart. It's very easy for us to say you should trade Zion because he hasn't been available because of the headache he creates by being unavailable by all of the reports we hear about his habits and what he does. There's just a very tangible difference in being the guy who gave up on Zion

Williamson, who was so clearly one of the most talented players in the NBA and the way that could hang over you for basically the rest of your professional life if you bail on that experiment too early, which is why we see so often in situations like this one and others, teams will hold on pretty long until a player is basically out the door on their own, on their own grounds, for their own reasons versus like preemptively dealing guys who are either unhappy or chronically injured or just like not even the best fits necessarily, it's very hard to bail on that kind of talent. And for that reason, I suspect these talks are a lot more exploratory in nature than they are

actually productive. I would still be very surprised as Zion ends up getting traded, but you have to entertain the possibility. You have to take those calls at this point, which is that's the demarcation point between Zion when he was drafted, Zion when he was first showing glimpses of what he could be in the NBA to now is you have to take the call and you have to take it seriously and at least think about with these these other potential stars or picks or whatever that looks like that you could get in return how do you not at least think about that when Zion isn't going to be available at least

hasn't been available for more than you know 30 or 40 games in some of these seasons so i'm going to regret this question as i'm asking it not even as soon as i finish but was you mentioned something where you are concerned by Zion's off-court behavior. And I'm actually curious, like, how concerning is that actually? Because it's a question I've asked myself where it's like, how much of this is just like typical NBA Tom Cattery, Tom Foolery, whatever Tom you want to throw out there versus like this being an actual issue? No, because for me, it's of a whole. It's not isolated. It's of a whole. It's like he's just not. serious about professionalism.

Like he doesn't walk, he doesn't carry himself like a professional, like the franchise cornerstone that he is in all aspects of this stuff. Okay. And so if this happened in isolation, I could chalk it up to a young man making a young man's mistake. God knows I've made plenty of them. But like all of these things feel like a guy who's getting bad at. advice constantly and who there is no accountability in his operation. And I mean, I'm not talking about

how he is as a guy. Like, I'm sure he's a great dude. I'm sure he's like a nice, warm human being. I'm sure I would love to be buddies with Zion on a personal level. But on a professional level, he has not displayed the characteristics of a serious professional-minded cat that just has not been the case that's not just with news like this that's with way his current and active teammates

talk about him in terms of his professional habits and how seriously he takes his rehab how much how much he's even around the team when he's out of the lineup versus he's just kind of parallel to it doing his thing when CJ took that little swipe at the end of the season

was just like, I'm playing. It's the playoffs. I'm in here. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I thought that was the rules. Yeah.

I thought that was the code. And by the way, CJ getting ripped for playing poorly while injured because that's sometimes the way it goes. So what we're saying is need burner accounts

on your Snapchat. You need to like, no photos. That's a veteran. Well, I mean Do I mean I mean

I'm I mean I mean are we Are we Are we going to Are we are we going to pretend The Draymond situation Never happened

Yeah Yeah Those are the early days of Snapchat Justin you're saying He didn't know the functionality yet Like he didn't know how to share To specific friends just blasting it out Well

I guess what I'm suggesting is Zion Should have learned from his forefathers In this instance But no, I think a big part of this also is the other side of the coin here. It's like, how much are the Blazers going to give up this prime asset in the hopes of making the most of Damien Lillard's like waning prime by bringing in Zion who has played 29 games over the past two seasons is averaging 29 games? Like how much are the Hornets, a team that desperately needs anything to inject enthusiasm into

their building who went to bring in Zion who does not play? Like they're literally giving away tickets and selling them for like a dollar. are the one thing you can't have is a guy not showing up in playing. So I almost wonder if this is just like so public of a thing at this point because the Pelicans want to light a fire under his ass to basically suggest like, listen, we can trade your ass. So please, for the love of God, get in line, retire of dealing with this. Will that make him get in line, though?

It might actually do the opposite, honestly. It might actually push him farther out the door. But like it sounds like based on everything that's out there that like they're at that point in just like their. Some of the stuff. that I've heard in relation to the people who are managing his career, dude. Like, you know, these are things that I'm not able to confirm independently. But like some of the stuff gets, it gets out there, dude.

Yeah. All right. Why don't we wrap it there long podcast, but I think we're off this weekend. So thank you. Well, we left it. We left it all on the court, Justin. Like, we did it just like the nuggets. God knows the off season is coming up.

We did this thing like we look. at this like a game. We got to play 46 minutes of finals level intensity. And that's what we did for the fans, man. We left it on the court, just. Just three Christian Browns out here. Just all diving for loose balls together. Christian Brown, my best boy.

No doubt about our podcast, unlike the credibility of the minutes. Wow. Wow. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. He's not kidding. Maybe I'm kidding. Who knows? All right. Let's leave it at that. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for jumping back

on here. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next week. We'll see it.