The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Variables: The Experience Factor, New York’s New Look, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Justin, Rob, and Kyle kick off the month of June with some NBA Finals talk!(00:00) The guys start with a few closing thoughts on Game 7 of the Western Conference finals and ponder potential next steps for the Oklahoma City Thunder, including whether trading Chet Holmgren is a viable option. Then, they preview the 2026 NBA Finals by breaking down a few variables that may ultimately decide who will be crowned NBA champion, including: How much has experience mattered/will it matter? (27:41)What’s different about this year’s Knicks run? (35:14)What’s the key individual or strategic matchup on the board? (45:04)Which winning story line is more intriguing? (1:04:50) They close out the show by making their official predictions for the winner of the series. (1:13:49) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann Producers: Jeff Shearin and Ben Cruz The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Buy any two Ferrero Brands and you could win $1 million. Visit GoAllInAndWin.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome group chat. I am Justin Verrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Finals pod! Let's go, baby. You've been very chanty lately. Is it something in the air? Is it these teams? Like, what has you so jazzed?

I feel the spirit of competition just coursing through me, baby. I love that for you. I love that for us. And, I mean, of all the places the season could have gone, this one is a fucking exhilarating outcome. Like, to be here in the finals with the Spurs and the Knicks, two T's I'm super excited to talk about. I just, I know we kind of flirted with this idea coming off of the cup that like

what if this was a finals preview in a way? The idea that that of all things ended up being prescient is kind of silly but also kind of rewarding. Yeah, it'd be fun to go back and listen to you. I probably will go see just what we said about that, maybe before the tip off on the game just to get a little feel for this. But it's a fun. We'll get in more of this in the details I think of the show.

But it is a really fun juxtaping. position, match up, whatever you want to call it, between two teams that are in different situations, one like ascending with a lot of unwritten, you know, character, shape, whatever it is in who they are with the Spurs. And a team that's kind of figured things out over years and had many highs and lows in the Knicks. So on that level, it's very exciting with a lot of superstars and a lot of different ways that this could go.

I think we need this swelling brass behind us as we talk about this. One team on the trajectory to the next. next level. Another team hoping to make history at Madison Square Guard or something. Was there a Costas intro? Because I was begging for one and I like was setting up my projector and missed it. I ended up, I was like, I missed the thing I was begging for. Was there, was there an intro? I thought that was, if you were ever going to do one, I thought game seven in that situation would have been it. Aren't you just the average modern consumer, Kyle, complain about the lack of something and then don't even pay attention to it whether or not you got it. Yeah, I screwed

the time up. I thought it was 830 and it was. eight. So I'm like, you know, all over the place. Yeah. The amount of complaining I hear about the like the pregame show or like the midgame show and like I just never listen. I literally just mute it just to make sure that I'm like on time when the ball actually tips off because it takes an extra 15 minutes after they say it's going to start. But there's a lot of pomp and circumstance going on about this matchup, not only just because the matchup is incredible, but also like Twitter bowling works. So we got the big old trophy back on the court, which is sick to see. also saw that there's like the 250, what is it,

bicentennial is happening. And so they have a patch all of a sudden on all the jerseys. I was just thinking, 250 years of the U.S., that's nothing. Like, we are just a speck on this space rock that we're all traveling through time with. That's wild. What pivot did we just take? I know.

250 years, though. That's not that long ago. This is just occurring to you in the grand scheme of human civilization that were nothing out here. Seeing a news brief about a patch on an NBA finals jersey. That's right. So does that mean in the grand scheme of existence? Are we the spurs? You know, are we on the ascendance of something? As a species. I mean, look, to be honest, we're just getting our legs under us. We've mostly been faltering around for the last couple hundred years at least. So maybe our brightest times are ahead. That's true. Well, that's a good segue. We need to take a break as per usual. But when we get back, we'll talk NBA finals,

But first, we got to talk about game seven. This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferreiro. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferreiro. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats. Like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling. Or Keebler Chips Deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks. Or Ferreiro Rochay squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold.

Go All In. Buy any two Ferreiro brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win.com. All right. Before we go look at the NBA finals, we need to talk game seven, Western Conference finals. So I would say the kind of the enduring images I have from that matchup, and there are a few of them. One would be the give and go early in the game in which Wembe just basically to check Homer and Seoul, just like real quickly.

Never recover from that one, unfortunately. I would say the cornet block of Hartenstein, certainly. But I think the one that I'm going to remember for a very long time is down the stretch. The spurs turn it over. OKC needs a quick bucket. Shea gets to the rim. But, oh, no, Wemby's there. He actually has to pull it out and all of a sudden has to reset, even though they needed the bucket as soon as possible they needed to come back.

And so, like, that's kind of like what we're up against, Rob. Like that seemed like the real like tidy glimpse of what the future holds where it's just like you could be as good as the Thunder could be the two-time MVP. But when Wemby is standing there, everything changes. They're an amazing team and we just saw them march to the title last year. And yet down the stretch of this one, as it got more and more desperate, it was interesting to watch like who was game to even take shots. Like who was even willing to step up for the Thunder. And like Kason Wallace was one of those guys who was willing to pull. Alex Caruso was willing to pull.

But it's like, it can't all be that. you know and wemby and the spurs have a way of kind of backing you into a sense of desperation as we've seen over the course of these playoffs so making you feel like right or wrong all of your best options have been taken away the things you default on the things you rely on are just not as bankable as they used to be and so shay had an amazing game on honestly i was really happy to see it like him put together a good shooting game from the field just like hitting more of his midrange stuff being a little more immutable in the way that we're used to seeing him be immutable and yet it's it still wasn't enough. Like, the Thunder just couldn't, they couldn't summon enough of that other stuff around him to make this an actual, you know, an actual game that they could pull out down the stretch.

But a tremendous thing to watch, and a tremendous thing to watch just like every spur by contrast seemed to pull those plays out of the mud. Yeah, I mean, Justin, you mentioned that play, that first play of the game that was, I mean, it was almost like a baptism, like a reverse baptism, because it wasn't the kind you want to be a part of where Wimby,

yeah, just like, Wemby just really caught Chet, you know, scrambling out of position. Even if you're in position, Wembe is a tough thing to deal with. But, you know, I remember, you know, flashing back to, I guess it was, we were doing the young core rankings. Weren't we when the Cup was going on? I think that was like we were all together in L.A. And I remember, I remember us having conversations about, you know, what is it that makes a player go from a nice idea to realizing and crystallizing into a superstar? and I've always kind of believed that, like, you know, who you are in the paint is kind of what dictates your ability to be a superstar.

Like, what is your functionality there? And it's like, Wimby is just a gigantic asteroid, speaking of, you know, the history of the earth and how things can change. Wembe is a gigantic asteroid in that, in that lake where, you know, he just causes extinction level events for who you think you are on the floor. And you watched, you know, She got in there. And I think that was a great play to point out was at this critical. point in the game where you would think your superstar would get into the paint and make make a play. He does this thing too where it's like we were talking about gnashing where I was talking about gnashing last week where you keep your dribble alive intentionally.

Shea got in there and had, you know, normally has the intention to score there. He's like swiveling and turning back towards the perimeter, which is an excellent place to be if you're on defense and you're like reading Shay's eyes, just chewing up clock. Throughout this game, man, it was just, it was really impressive. there's a lot more that we could get into. I know we want to talk about the finals, but Wimby just picked his spots really well. Spurs had role players that came up and hit.

Julian Champany was just nails throughout this game. Unbelievable. This team just kind of answered the bell in some ways that really, really left me reeling for a few days. Honestly, I was just so impressed by their youth, the way they stepped up. Well, the crazy thing about the Shay play as well is that Wemby had five falls on him.

And he was cruising through a lot of that fourth quarter with five files, which made the lack of aggression from Chet, I think stand out in particular where it's like at the very least, try to get him out of the game just by drawing contact. And he just wouldn't do that. There's that, like, pretty popular clip that everyone's probably seen by now of him. As soon as he gets the ball hot potatoing out of there. And unfortunately, like, I do think this game will be remembered

as kind of an inflection point for Chet. He's 24 years old. And so there's still a lot. to be written with his story. But, like, you could see these things just, like, burying certain players. Like, the extreme example is obviously Ben Simmons. I really don't think that's going to happen to Shad Holgren because of all the extra things he does in addition to offense, like the fact that he can typically shoot the ball or just

play defense really well and protect the rim. I don't think it's going to happen, but, like, this does feel like a bit of a crossroads moment for him and perhaps the thunder. What do you think, Rob? I think Chet is an amazing player against like 27 teams, and this is just one of the matchups that is uniquely awful for him. And so, but if that one team that you need to go through, not just this year, but in future years,

hangs over you all the time, it can define your story. It can tell, you know, it can become who you are as a player over the course of your career and the way that you're remembered. So it is an inflection point. This is, you know, the Thunder are going to have a lot of decisions to make about how much to continue with this shape of their roster

versus how much they want to start planning ahead for what the next five years look like in this sort of competitive environment. And Chet is going to have to be a lot better. Like that, I'm glad you brought up that play too, Justin, because that is one of the indelible images of the game is Chet passing up really any opportunity to attack Victor Webbenyama one-on-one or otherwise,

but that one was so glaring and so damning. You can't be a non-score, ineffective in guarding on the ball on defense. and just like the contrast of putting Jalen Williams in the game and him being so much more effective than Chet, Isaiah Hardenstein coming into the game and giving you so much more to offer than Chet, it can't be that way like him.

It can't be like that for him forever. So he's going to have to change a lot, but I think the Thunder might have to at least consider how they want to go about the creative suite of their offense. Like just having A.J. Mitchell back was not going to change the outcome of the series. Having J. Dubback might have, and having both of them certainly might have. but even that might not be enough the next time these two teams meet in the playoffs.

I've had that same thought that you were saying about, you know, against everybody else. It's like, and Chet, we mentioned this earlier in the playoffs, you know, when he's got Yondri Aiton in front of him or he's got these typical big guys, it's just he is a certain level of like wiggilyness and cross-section of wiggliness and skill at a player his size that is a handful to deal with for most fives in the NBA, but it just so happens that a player who has his same traits but just happens to be, you know, six inches taller is playing at the same time as him. And it gives him all kinds of problems. And even like the proportions of his wingspan are longer, you know, it's like, so he is just sort of a, um, an answer to everything that Chet does well.

And I've kind of wondered if, um, I was going to say, you know, a lot of the panic, I'm not really going along with people on that front because I feel like it would be, it would be pretty short-sided and really, um, a real. I'm erroneous to like overreact to this because I think there's some go ahead. Also antithetical to everything we know about the Thunder and the way San Presi operates. Like trading Chet Holmgren now is not really the kind of thing the Thunder do. Well, no, but I think he's had a long enough track record that he actually has done a little bit of everything. Like you want to pigeonhole him as someone with the long view, but really like as soon as the giddy problem arose, like he got rid of it. it's a different level. Like, trading Chet on a max when he still seems like pretty integral to what you do is different

than Giddy, who was a problem in the regular season going into the playoffs. It just became such a big issue that was in the playoffs. But like, it's so funny because it's just like, oh, well, maybe they won't go star chasing, but it's like, oh, he also pulled off the ball George straight. And so there's a lot of things colliding at once. I don't disagree that I don't think it will happen. But I do think it's in his back to do something more extreme than you expect. I don't know about the extreme on the high end.

Like, yes, going chasing after Paul George is one thing. But, like, obviously what's in the air right now is Janus is on the trade market. Could he be an option for the thunder? And, you know, whether you want to put Chet or J-dub into that conversation is up to you. It's not just bailing at the first sign of trouble in the Josh Giddy kind of mold, but also trading youth and a player who has a lot of career ahead of him and a lot of opportunity ahead of him for someone who is a little more defined and who has an injury history. It's like it's accepting a different kind of risk that we have seen the Thunder make trades and make moves for the here and now. I would say more so in the previous era than this one.

But this is where we're kind of getting with OKC. It's like all of the pieces are maturing to a point where they could start to make some of the like, do we trade for a Kendrick Perkins? Like I'm saying metaphorically, not a literal Kendrick Perkins type. But like, do you make that sort of move that makes you that much more formidable and solid in the playoffs at the expense of some of the youth you've worked so hard. to build. It's just a tough proposition. And Chet in particular, such a fascinating prospect still. I just don't think they would pull the plug on him so quickly. I think that he's, well, you're right, that he has almost had like a Taylor Swift kind of eras thing where we've seen him two different things. But I think there is a pattern among them,

though, where it's like, if you compared it to like, I think of like songwriting, it's like changing the instrumentation or the where the sections go, like some of the core structural things, he's been he's shown a willingness to do those things early on but like they're at the point now where they're tweaking you know the mix they're tweaking sort of the post-production things of what they of this realized thing that they have i don't know that he would go back and just be like i'm going to change change the core the structure of what we have going on here because it's worked also because this game went this series went to seven games and they were missing an all-star and they're arguably some you know an all-a-bba guy and then j michael i was just going to say i think there's

tweakable things where I think the speed, this is just far be it from me to give Chet, Hongren basketball advice. But I just, I'm looking at the speed of some of the things that he does. And we talked about it, the load up of his shot and his comfort level shooting it quickly, the difference between him and Carl Towns, who the Spurs are going to be facing in this series, is gigantic. And I think that Chet is going to have to, he's going to have to raise his comfort level shooting the ball faster. If you look at some of the moves that he relies on on his self-creative. he gets to that little hop back and then the spin, it's very slow. Granted, he's so much bigger than everybody else that it doesn't always matter against Wimby.

It does. I just think some of the speed and then his handle is probably an area where he could fix that. But then also just having all their guys is going to change the parameters in the situations where he catches the ball. Yeah, I do think adding some strength would help. I just think adding a degree of physicality would perhaps round out things in a way that perhaps could lead to him, like getting more time for the three points. or at the very least, like, having more confidence in it because after a certain point, like it wasn't just this game. It was kind of trickling throughout this playoffs and especially came to a head in the Western

Conference finals where it's just like he seemed a little shell shocked, like most of the time. And I do wonder if like incremental progress will help that. I would be surprised if they did anything with him on the trade market, if only because he's at the nadir of his valley and that doesn't seem like a presty move. If I was to be concerned overall about like the thunder going forward, I think it's more about Case of Wallace kind of insinuating that like perhaps he would like a bigger role. And maybe they figure things out. The Thunder despite like anything big, they do have to figure things out because

of the second apron and so many of these contracts like coming home to Roos because both J-Dub and Chats Max kicks in next season. But like if you have a guy like Wallace, all of a sudden you don't win the title and he's like, oh, I want something different. Like that becomes an issue because the great thing about depth is you have this wealth of talent. But all of a sudden you're spinning so many different plates, right? With a big three, it's like, oh, you just have to worry about these three guys.

A little disease of more in there, Kaysen. You can't really, like, as an organization, plan against, like, human behavior. Like, just, like, someone having aspiration in a different way that doesn't align with, like, your bigger term goals. The fact that they've gotten this far is already kind of a master class in the subject. But, like, different guys wanting out and wanting different things. Like, then it becomes a little bit more tricky. Sure.

So perhaps they do something in that regard. Maybe it's just to even open up of playing, like more playing time or even a like a regular starting role for him. But something's going to happen. I think that's the easy answer. We already talked on a previous spot about Lou Dora and his future with the team. It seems pretty clear that Kaysen is ready to usurp a lot of that opportunity in those minutes.

And it's like you can get him a more consistent starting role. You can get him more minutes. You can get him more on ball touches. A lot of that is already here within the architecture of the team. do. It also did feel to me a little bit just like a guy negotiating his extension in public, as pretty much happens with every player as they get into this stage of things. Like the Thunder are a team that for very understandable reason would want to like mind its finances very specifically to try to keep as much of this core together as they possibly could. And Case of Wallace,

also rightly so, is out here trying to make fucking bank and deserves it. So like there is that tension, there is that push and pull. But I think you're, I think you're right to identify this, JV, because so much of the talk around the Thunder and around NBA teams in general these days is from like a fantasy GM kind of perspective of like, oh, you have these players, you have these picks, you have these assets. If you just keep them together

and add this other piece, voila, title. But all of these guys have their own agency. All of them are going to hit their own free agencies. All of them are going to be able to request or push for trades or be unsettled by their roles. It's like those human elements are so easy to gloss over when you're on your way to a championship. And I think a little easier to take for granted at a moment like this

where it would be understandable, if not predictable, for some people in the Thunder to want a little bit more than they already have. Kate, the distance, there's a pretty funny, speaking of distances between players, it's funny how different it is between Dort and Kaysen, where it's like, we're so excited about how willing to embrace the moment Kaysen was at the end of that game, we were just like, damn, a case and Wallace, hell yeah, man, big shot. Like, he matched that big three that Kelden hit in the corner,

drove to the basket, high glass floater, and, you know, contrast that with Dorts' lack of fear of the moment where you're like, ooh, be a little more afraid of Dors. Healthy fear is good, I think. Yeah, maybe don't do that. Like, what we don't take that shot. The early threes, it's like, I'm, you know, I'm sure a lot of ulcers were formed because of Dorts, fearlessness.

But something's got to happen. I mean, we talked about, like, they have three picks in the draft and you can only roster one guy as of right now. Like, there's going to be more activity for a team that, as we mentioned, without two of its top players, came within, like, a couple points in a game seven of going back to the NBA finals in an era of great parody. Like, it's really a slim thing we're talking about here. So the Thunder don't need to do anything dramatic.

I agree with what you guys are saying. But, like, they have to do something because they have to do something. The math doesn't map. Right. They will have to make some moves with their roster just by the numbers. That's the reality of the situation. Also, like, as we're talking about what the team needs and what the offense relies on, they need a version of Chet or a player in that spot who can stay on the floor in a game like this

and make productive plays. A little shooting also wouldn't hurt more generally. A little more ball handling to relieve some of the pressure on Shea would help. Ideally, you're getting that from J. Dub and A.J. Mitchell, but one other option wouldn't hurt things either. and that's where, like, Nicola Topich is sitting right there. We're going to see if he's ever a real active member of this rotation at any point. You know, he's had a lot going on over the past calendar year.

Maybe by next season, he's a more entrenched part of what the Thunder are. Yeah. So as a result of the Thunder losing, we will now get our eighth straight different champion, which I believe is unparalleled. How do you guys feel about this overall? Like, is it nice to have something new every year? or I mean the whole thing about the the Cavs warriors squaring off every year was like that actually like the ratings suggested that people actually love that they love their two favorite teams and the history and the storylines going at it like where do you guys fall on this map? I love what it does to us like the way and I say that us as like a broader basketball people the way it forces us to reconsider what we think we know about the sport and what gets a team to this point.

It's like all of the truisms of life in the NBA are kind of melting away, given what's going on with the cap and the apron, given the rigors of the NBA regular season. Just like, I guess experience kind of matters but doesn't. I guess certain kinds of teams get to the finals except for all these other ones. Like there's so many counter examples to counter examples to counter examples now that I like, I feel invigorated by how like backfooted we are trying to make predictions about literally anything. That part does feel exciting to me. Well, yeah, it goes back and forth. And I was sort of like flashing back just trying to imagine what I was thinking and what people were saying.

Granted, the Warriors Cav stuff was like, I mean, predated me covering the NBA, most of it. But I remember going into those finals really being riveted and excited about them. But also there was the counter of I remember people being like they ruined it. You know, it's a funny balance of people thinking that basketball was ruined because we had this expectation that was met every year, every June, because those two teams would be in the finals. Yeah. I personally, I think back, too, about, like, my years really enjoying baseball,

which has gone on and off, you know, throughout my life where the times when I was most interested in it, when it was like Evil Empire, New York Yankees years there when I was in high school, like in the early 2000s, where they were just this, you know, daunting force that, you know, we had to find a way to take them down. Everybody was just like, empires are fun. in sports. So, and on the other side of it, like, keeping with the Star Wars comparison here, it's just like, you know, when there's peace in the galaxy, it's kind of boring.

Like, I don't know. It's like, the parody is like, I'm not. You're saying the NBA is in his Mandalorian and Grobu era? Yeah, maybe. I thought Rob was going to say that I'm like a fascist at heart or something here, but I just, do you see what I'm saying? Like, it is, the paris, the empires are fun. I like that everybody has a chance to win, but it's like, I also don't have a team,

So I'm coming from that perspective. I'm a neutral observer here, but I like that everybody has a chance, but it is fun whenever there's this daunting thing that needs to be taken down. Like, that's fun theater to me. I agree. I think the problem with Cavs Warriors is that at a certain point just became predetermined and fatalistic, where it's just like we knew that was going to happen. And so it was just kind of a fast forward effect through everything else to get to that point, unless you were like really ingrained in the finer details of the day to day of the NBA. this doesn't have that. And so perhaps we could have our cake and eat it too,

like if the spurs ascend and they are the big bad waiting there, but things are different getting up to there. Or at the very least there is enough, especially in the West, in order to perhaps muddle that, if like the Thunder or like that one team that they're going back and forth, but there's a different team from the East, it would help a lot if the East played their part

because the East playoffs was pretty cut and dry this year. Maybe like injuries finally like sorting themselves out, like with the Celtics and the Cavs finally getting their shit together. like maybe we'll have a good East playoffs. But yeah, I think we're headed in the right direction, is what I would say. I think so. I mean, just when you think about what are the things that are narratively satisfying about a TV show, a movie, a sports season, like whatever it is,

it's like you want that uncertainty in the middle where everything feels a little bit muddled. It can't feel like a straight line or else we just talk ourselves into it too quickly. And by the time June actually comes around, we did our NBA finals preview and like, November. And so what is even the point of going through this exercise? So you want the Knicks to have a moment of crisis in January, February. You want times in the season where it was like, are the Nuggets the best team in the league? And are they going to march all the way to the title through the thunder to get there? You want moments of consideration of like how deep do the ranks of the contenders actually go? And the more and more parity we see in the league, I think the more

we're going to be open to considering as we did this year, like, who are the next version of the Pacers? Who is the team that's kind of hiding in plainside that could pull. it altogether at just the right time. You want all of that confusion, even if in the end it's who you expect to be there. Because I think that's just what creates that sort of logical consistency of like, okay, we've seen the trials of these teams. We've talked ourselves through all the alternatives and all the options, and we still got somewhere that made sense to us.

I also think you don't want the outcome to be to determine too much by, like, injuries, which is also a sad part of this. And it probably segues nicely to our first question. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair.

With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. So we don't have a new fresh track for the variables. We're going to do this variable style, but we can't call it the variables. So we are going to call this our NBA finals variables, okay? but we're just not going to spell it in the correct way

because I don't put my stamp of approval on it. We're just spelling it variable. I see. V-A-R-I-A-B-L-E-S. That distant thumping sound you heard was people in their cars hitting the roof like this. Damn it, yeah, the variables. Driving off the road.

I got to pull over. I don't know what to do with a normal variable anymore. I'm just used to orienting my life around variables. That's the exact reaction. I would hope you to have. So these are just variables. They're not variables. That's messed up.

Yeah. I guess, you know, we will try to soldier on, but I'm uncomfortable at the prospect, I have to say. It's all, this is all so important. It's all so important that we can figure this out and get all those details right. It's, I love hearing you guys work through it. Thanks. Yeah. Perhaps someone can get Travis Scott in Sweden and just have them just, like, cut us a

track real quick. You had your chance to go make your plea in person and you chose not to. You prioritized doing your job. The grind is there, man. He had to do it. Which for everybody listening back home, you should know that everyone at our company is currently at Sweden listening to Travis Scott and just doing team building activities. I don't know what people do there.

But we're talking about the NBA finals and we're going to talk about some variables. I have five lined up for us. First, I want to talk about experience. So, as you may know, the Spurs are weight. younger than most teams they get to this point. In fact, according to an NBA statistic where they weigh age based on postseason playing time, the Spurs are the second youngest team in NBA history to ever make the NBA finals.

Can you guys guess what number one is? Well, I'm assuming it's not the Thunder. Thunder are number two. So last year's Thunder or number three, excuse me. So the Spurs are two, Thunder three. Who else was a particularly young? Can we get like a range of time? Like how distant is this?

70s. Okay, yeah. It's Blazers then. Yeah, right? It's the Blazers. Yeah. I read that book this summer. Yeah, I was trying to think back about,

recommend that book if anybody. He hasn't read it. Yeah, and then 86 Rockets was the other one, right? That was pretty young. Where are they on the list? Do you have it? I only have the top three because that was the only thing on the quote card. That's all we need.

But I think it is notable that two of the top three teams here come from the past two post seasons from the West. It does feel like we are in a different era where younger teams are ascending more quickly. Perhaps that's just because we have generational stars on them. And also like these teams got to the depth element quicker than some other teams. And so there are a lot of things at play here. I guess the question, Rob, I have for is like,

how much can we rely on the old axiom at this point? Because experience typically dictated some part of the playoffs and ultimately the title winner, winner. Do you think it matters at all? Or if anything, do you think it helps that the spurs are young and perhaps more fresh in an era where like injuries are starting to mount as well? It always matters in some way. And I mean, we talked a little bit about the pomp and circumstance of like the promotion of the finals at the top of the show. It is true that it just like feels like a totally different environment. If you are a player in this series, it catches a lot of guys off

guard in terms of you can see the jitters, you can see the nervousness, you can see the pressure of playing on this stage. I think it catches up to players and people in ways you might not always expect. And I don't think it's going to divide along like young guys versus old guys or Spurs versus Nix or anything like that in part because it's not like the Nix have a wealth of championship experience either. Like Michaela Bridges has been to a finals. Jalen Brunson has a, you know, collegiate championship experience, very different thing.

O.G. and O.N. O.N. O.B. is technically a champion, but was not a part of that Raptors run whatsoever because he was injured. And so everyone is kind of on a similar playing field. And I think one thing I have come to learn about watching the Spurs throughout these playoffs is even though they are not an experienced team, and this is the first real run for the Spurs group, it's also every opponent's first opportunity trying to understand what the hell to do with Victor Webbenyama on the floor.

And that is a totally unique experience. And when you have a superstar who is that singular that you have to account for, I don't know how much experience is really going to prepare you for that kind of thing. Yeah, I think it comes down to just sort of how you ground yourself whenever things start to go sideways really or you know and sideways can take a lot of different forms. You're hit with a stage that you're that you're not used to or you know, there's a run happening or whatever. I listen to it like in the off season or just throughout the year I'll just will try to hit myself with like voices of I'll listen to like coaches and things like that just talk

about basketball to just mix me up and one and just here just different things odd whatever it might be a strategy thing or just chemistry philosophy development or whatever it is, but there's one coach that was talking about just the storm, basically, that happens in a big game where, you know, the other team is going on a run and you can just see it happening. Like the calves are an example of when the storm hit. They just kind of jumped off the side of the boat, let go of the rope, whatever analogy you want to use. And throughout this game seven, I think it's spinning this forward to what to expect from the Spurs. But in this like game seven that they won, there were several times where OKC was coming and they grounded themselves. You watched it happen in real time where they've just repeatedly shown this ability to be like the, and I think to get right and stabilize.

And I think a lot of that sort of ripples out from Wimby, whether or not he's scoring or not. It's just he has a conscientiousness. He's never like freaking out. I told you all like when he was younger, he used to kind of get carried away and he doesn't really do that anymore. So I think that that's going on where I just think that I'm not going to bet against therapy. to ground themselves. Granted, the final stage is a little bit different. But then there's the other thing that I was seeing earlier is that we kind of know

who the Knicks are in a way. Granted, they made some adjustments with the way that they're using Kat that we could talk about. But the spurs are so unwritten and they're still getting better. Like Dylan Harper is not the guy today that he was in December when we were talking about them. Stefan Castle, same thing. Wimby, same thing.

They have so many dudes who are ascending in a way where the Knicks, who's ascending on the Knicks at this point. They're all kind of in their primes. right? They're in their, yeah, they're in their primes, but like,

I think Kat, OG and Mikhail are all playing like as well as they have ever played. I'm not, I'm not diminishing them when I say that. I'm just saying we know

who they are more where it's like the spurs are still working towards that. They're not too much stage yet. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think the flip side of this too

is like how much injuries impact a team and how much just the gauntlet of a regular season into a long NBA finals long postseason is affecting certain teams. Tom Havishrow has been calling this the championship tax or the postseason tax,

where it's just like you're starting to see the wear and tear, and perhaps that helped the spurs in the thunder matchup where they lose two key players. But like, I mean, we say this all the time, like how much load management is needed. I feel like I use the word torque more in the past year or two than I ever have just because of the amount of just stress on the body, just going through all this is happening. And I think that's something we need to reconcile with. Because if you look at the teams, like, yeah, the Spurs have had their dings. Fox and Harper, we'll see. Like, they looked, Harper in particular looks really good, those last two games against the Thunder.

But like, these teams are largely healthy outside of Mitchell Robinson, all of a sudden having a broken finger hand situation. That swung the series back towards San Antonio, the fact that those two dudes look normal. Because in the games they lost, they're in the middle of the series. They were not themselves. Yeah. I think in regard to this collective toll, I agree with you about like the Spurs getting healthy, getting Fox and Harper with momentum is a huge thing for them.

In this series, just as it was in the conference finals, this is a different way to think about something like experience, but this is also the third consecutive Knicks opponent that's coming off of a seven-game series into a series against the Knicks, and ask the Cavs how much fun that is. This is not a team you want to play if you're in any way weary.

And so the break, for even a little bit of rest, I think goes a long way for the spurs. Getting those guys back, the guards in particular, with their legs under them, is a huge development for them. But if the physical and emotional toll of the Western Conference finals is hanging over San Antonio in any way, and that was a huge series for them to bust through and win, I mean, the Knicks are exactly the kind of opponent who can take advantage of that, like the momentary in attention, like any lack of commitment to detail,

the Knicks have shown they can exploit that in really explosive ways over the course of this postseason. All right, since we're talking about the Knicks, why don't we go to number two here? Unfortunately, we don't have a nice little jingle to carry us in there. And so you could just make one up in your head. Rob, unless you want to hum something real quick. You know what I'm good.

This is just a regular old podcast with regular old variables. Okay. So the Knicks playing probably the best of anyone in the playoffs, just absolutely steamrolling. So since they went down two to one on the Hawks, they've won literally every single game since they're 11 and 0. just absolutely blistering on both sides of the floor. So, Kyle, I'm curious what you think about the Knicks just overall,

like what's different about them? Because clearly last postseason when we last saw them, things weren't as just free-flowing and fun, I would say, under Tom Tibido. What are you seeing from this year's Knicks that have allowed them to have such success? I mean, their role players are playing fantastic. I think we can get to the root cause of why that is. I mean, I went and looked this up specifically, Bridges, Kat Brunson, and OG.

The only guy in their starting lineup that isn't seeing a significant jump in efficiency in the playoffs is Josh Hart, who's adding, you know, as Josh Hart does, little intangible things all over the place. But, you know, Bridges during the regular season, 49% from the field. He's at 58.6 in the playoffs. Kat was at 50% during the regular season. He's at 57. Let's see. OG is a big one here, 48.4 during the game.

the regular season. He's at 57.7 and he's shooting almost 49% from three. Those guys are getting better shots and making them, which is a function of things that we've talked about in the past on the show, which is that they're just letting Kat pass the ball more. In the Hawks series, that was him. And this is an interesting kind of path that they've been on as opposed to what they're getting ready to see in Victor Wimmoniama,

where the Hawks didn't have a true five. That's something that's going to behoove them in the offseason. And the draft is to go answer that question wherever that is. but he could just pass over the top of a Kongwu, and that was, you know, play more inside to out. In against the, you know, the Sixers who had, you know, a sarcophagus out there, a corpse that was, you know, artists formerly known as Dolan Bede. It was a little bit more they were using their guards to kind of screen each other.

He was playing further out on the floor and the same thing with the Cavs. So I think that's been the biggest thing is that, you know, whether or not they're passing against a team that has a smaller big, from the inside out or from the outside in, the way that they were in their last two series, that's what's worked, but that's going to be radically different against the spurs. And I think that's something that we should pick at a little bit.

But if you told the Rob of 2025 or 2024 that the Knicks would become that kind of team, I don't know that I would have believed you. I don't know that I would have been excited if you told me that. I would be incredibly excited, but it just did not seem like it was in the DNA of the way the Knicks played of who Jalen Brunson was, certainly of the way that Tibbs was coaching. Like, that was a team that has basically run into the wall three consecutive years in the

playoffs. And their only solution was like, I guess Jalen Brunson back up and run into the wall again and hope you burst through it this time. And this whole playoffs has been an exercise in, what if instead of doing that we just scaled it or just walked around it? What if we made accommodations to not go through the hardest part of the defense at literally every opportunity? And I think shifting from a team that needs Jalen Brunson to do everything into one that drafts off of him to do all of this other stuff has just unlocked so many things about who the Knicks are, who these role players are.

It's given them a depth to their offense. And I say that not just in terms of like tapping into the bench in ways that they didn't in previous seasons, but just layering in alternatives that don't involve Jalen Brunson having to dribble for 15 seconds to make something happen. Yeah, it's crazy that like how stark of a change it's been. And to that point, the Knicks fired Tibbs one year ago on the day of game one of the NBA final. So on Wednesday, that will be the one year anniversary of moving on from Tibbs. And like, it just feels night and day. I mean, we should mention that they're just shooting the shit out of the ball in a way

that like few teams do going into the playoffs. They're leading the playoffs in two point percentage and also three point percentage, basically shooting 59, 40, 76 as an entire team. And so that helps that like all of their shooters have been dialed. than except for Josh Hart, who ironically had a very good regular season. But apparently, like, these role players that just shoot the hell out of the ball all of a sudden just apparently can't strike a divide between regular and postseason. I mean, I think the cat wrinkle is something that we should talk about here,

where it's just like his playmaking has just been in an absolute other level. Like, basically his assist percentage is like approximating Brunson. Like, he's been doing so much more of that. And I do wonder if, like, he's able to continue that going into this series. How much does this change? because all of a sudden, like, can you stick a smaller, more physical guard on him, which the spurs have in depth, because you don't have the length in order to kind of impede some of his passing qualities because he's just so big and he pass over the defense.

And so I just think he's playing like the best I've ever seen him. Having said that, that does worry me a little bit because I do kind of feel like this entire finals rests on Kat being a sort of guy that we haven't seen before. He's going to have to be awesome. I mean, we've seen it over the course of these previous rounds, but it's like, yeah, can he sustain it against increasing levels of competition and now something he's never had to confront in the playoffs before in this Spurs team and Victor Wenamma specifically?

It's going to be an incredible trial. But to me, like, Kat has been the answer to all of the Brunson-related questions, frankly. Like the whole, like, is Jalen Bruns, like, can you win with a small guard driving this much offense? The answer is yes, if you have a center who can also be able to, playmaking hug and see over the top of the defense in just the way you describe JV. So it's like he is the piece that allows them to get to all of these options more quickly, to balance all of the threats on the floor more succinctly than a small guard having to play out of a double team every possession down the floor.

And I think the larger adaptability of the Knicks is the story of their postseason. And they've just proven to be frankly, like lighter on their feet in shifting from strategy to strategy and tactic to tactic than any other team in the field. And Cat is a huge reason why Mike Brown is clearly a huge reason why. And he deserves a ton of credit for like layering in all of these things over the course of the season, even when they weren't entirely working and pivoting and pivoting and really turning everything the Knicks have done this year into such a fluid adaptive process. If they hit an obstruction, they alter it slightly. They tweak slightly.

They change the rotation. They change their approach. And Kat has become the kind of player who allows you to do that, which is an incredible transformation from the sort of like, boneheaded, overfowling, like, can't trust him to establish post position kind of flaky playoff performer. He was in his younger years. He really has come into himself. Yeah, and what's interesting is his touches are almost the exact same from these past two playoffs. They're right at 50. So he's made a really conscious change that he deserves a lot of credit for. In terms of their offense, though, to speak to what you're saying there, Rob, I think it's the

Valentina hot sauce thing. I don't know if you guys have ever used Valentina Hot sauce thing. I don't know if you guys have ever use Valentina Hotson? I use it all the time, so I'm very eager to know what the relevance is to my life. You ever notice the spout of the Valentina? It has, it doesn't have one hole. It has two holes. You know why that second hole is there so that it comes out smoother. It needs that extra airflow.

And I think that this is something that's true. I mean, coffee cups also a lot of different things. Miller Light had the thing where you could like, really have to push the, it's proprietary Valentina's technology. Anyway, it's or like you'll see like a like a fire barrel that'll have a hole punctured it. It's the oxygen. You want the and I think that cat doing this has given them more oxygen so that they are burning hotter. But with the with the experience, I think you see this with like old college teams a lot of times.

They have like this ability to make adjustments that make people guard longer into the clock or just like they'll make a, you know, a quick adjustment that is executed efficiently. You know, you can have a good idea of you. you don't execute it well, you know, your good idea is as a fart sound, basically. But, you know, the Knicks, I think, have, I'm interested in the matchups in this one. Do we want to, have we segue to the matchups part of this? Because I know this was something we were going to officially segue to. Are we at that point of the pod? Right, we can get right to that right after this break.

The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fanduel. It all comes down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA finals? Make your call with Fandul. Right now, new customers can hit the course. with $350 in bonus bets guaranteed after betting $5 for seven straight days. Fandall is the best place to bet all your favorite players during the NBA finals, bet on their baskets and boards,

or build a same game parlay for a chance at a bigger payout. So, looking at the finals, looking at finals, MVP odds, Wembe Brunson, top two. I don't know how much you're going to make off of that. So I kind of like Towns plus 2,200. Kind of thought he should have maybe been the Eastern Conference. finals MVP. Can see if things go right for the Knicks.

He would be in position to perhaps win finals MVP. So at $2,200 plus $2,200, just give me towns for finals MVP. Just visit fandal.com slash wringer MBA to get started. 21 plus select states, 18 plus D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only. Minimum $5 wager required for seven consecutive days. Bonus issued as non-wistrawable bonus best expire seven days after a seat. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler.

Call 1-88-7-8-8-7-9-7-7 or visit ccppg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, number three on the docket. We got the matchups, a lot of them to diagnose here. Where do you guys want to start? Well, maybe just start with, like, the most interesting one. Or are we all going to agree that it's whether or not Wembegaard's heart? I think it has to be, and that's not just a question for this series, but I think it's going to be the question for basically every spurs.

playoff series for the foreseeable future is where is Victor Wembenyama on the floor on defense? Because that is going to determine the vast majority of the game, the vast majority of the matchup, like what the other team tries to do and where they're frustrated. And it's just kind of awesome that a 22-year-old who is maybe the best player in the world is dominating in that way. That that's how we have to think of him. It's not even who guards Wemby yet, but like how much, how much of our problem can he create for everyone? Because we just saw him put Chet Holmgren in a prison of his own mind without even guarding him. Yeah, so they last faced off on March 1st during that torrid stretch where I think the Spurs

only lost since February 1st, four games, three of them were the nuggets and one was that game on March 1st to the Knicks. And so in that game, Wembe guarded Hart, Castle, guarded towns, Besselon Bridges, and Fox was on Brunson. I have to assume they'll do something to start with at least the same. They'll start with that because of the way they guarded Caruso until he hit a ton of shots. I think that makes sense, but Kyle, I think this

ultimately circles back to your cat point where it's like, can you get away with putting Castle on Cat because the physicality that he plays with perhaps matches him. But then on the flip side of that, you have the playmaking part of this. And then you have the old dimension of like the three point threat where like Kat is

probably, I guess Porzingis would probably be the best version of this. But like Kat is approximating this, like that would be if you were to draw up a way to kind of counter what Victor does, not necessarily just completely erase him, but like someone who would provide him difficulty would be like a stretch big who could play make from the top of the perimeter that forces you out. And so once again, it seems like Kat has the key here. Yeah, if you were, if you're trying to think of the ideal of a type of team that would stress the spurs in an interesting way, it would be like, like you said, a shooting five just so happens that maybe, I mean, you could throw dirt. is obviously in this kind. People start quibbling

about who's a center, who is in a center. It's like Cat is, if he's not the best shooting center of all time, he's right there in that short list. He's an incredible, quick, like, he's one of the fastest shots, really, really efficient. So that's going to be a unique thing. I'm kind of curious, you mentioned

like putting Castle on him. I kind felt like it was implied that Castle would be on Brunson. I would start there. Is that, do we agree, or are we in lockstep on that? It depends on how healthy these guys. are like can fox not take that i think the problem is with cat like you want the physical like is vassel physical enough he has like a slight bit more of length but like that probably champagne it would

be the alternative right it's either do you want like a little like a little more size but a not as much physicality with julian shampenny or do you want someone like castle who can sort of bait cat into maybe being aggressive in ways that aren't productive for the nix and you want to put a guard on Oji as opposed to putting champagne because OG might be the strongest guy on the court. Yeah, which is a legitimate problem. Like him being that strong on closeouts is a real weapon

in a way that he's not just like a normal 3-n-D threat. Yeah, I mean, I was looking at this and I was, you don't really want to make changes like this at this time of the year, but I was like I'm going to be curious to see the staggered kind of lineups when Harper is out there to sort of strengthen the sort of switchy

chain that the spurs have access to here. I started from the like the knicks are an interesting parallel to like stylistically to the way that the thunder play granted the way you know adding cats playmaking hub part of this the spurt the the thunder don't really have this but they they do sort of rely on a guy who is mostly an isolation score who's just a little bit smaller i would throw castle with talking about brunton obviously i would throw castle on him and then i kind of tried to arrange this around to figure out a way to have wimby not guard heart just because that's the conventional thing that we all agree on. I'm like, I don't want to

just be like, that's for sure. But it's conventional for a reason, you know, it's like, it's, it's such a tempting option. Yeah, Fox, who Fox guards is almost as interesting to me, because I'm like, the thing that the Knicks have that the Thunder don't have is that I think their shot makers or their extra spacers are a little more reliable and they're bigger, you know, Bridges is 6'7 and OG is 6.8, they're really shooting the hell out of the ball. And then you have cats shooting the ball too. The size and the quality of the shooting in that size, I think is a big difference between the Knicks and the Thunder. Yeah, I haven't sketched out like you do, but I think you're kind of circling the main, like, kind of tension point of the series where it's like, in a way,

this is kind of the final boss of the Spurs being able to trumpet their build overall, where the Knicks are almost like the extreme version of what we're used to, where it's just like these big physical wings that can go both ways. And for that reason, like, like the physicality of a lot of these guards that the spurs have is met with like physical guys who are also bigger than them. And so like the push and pull of that is going to be interesting, especially considering the board's element. We can get into Mitchell Robinson and like the injury effect on him.

But like they're just not going to be able to push them around in a way that the press they had some success with with earlier opponents. But I just I just see the skill advantage just being such like a tilt the other way where it's like, we talk about Harper. Like, it's funny because I have everything all matched up, but then I throw Harper in there and then everything just goes out the window. Because if he's going to be healthy, it just feels like he has this way of just crashing the party

and completely upending things. Well, Dylan Harper is proven to be the kind of guy who, yes, can attack one-on-one. We've talked about his driving game, probably ad nauseum on this podcast. But he's also come up with like monster offensive rebounds, a lot of random little plays where if you don't account for him are like back-breaking plays. Those were gigantic plays in that game where he snuck from the, the corner, those need to be shouted out. I'm glad you did. Completely. And also, as we're talking about the defensive matchups for the Spurs, I mean, Dylan Harper, we shouted it out too, also did a great

job one-on-one against Shea in a lot of situations. Just like a counterintuitive, like really disciplined, staying down, understanding the fakes are coming, not getting baited or pulled into anything. And Jalen Brunson is a very similar offensive proposition. Much lower center of gravity, very different body type, slightly different game and approach than Shea. But another guy where it's like, you have to be zeroed in on the scouting report in order to have any credibility holding down that matchup. And Harper, crazy as it sounds for a 20-year-old, I think can come off the bench and do that

for a good portion of this game. I think I wanted to attack one thing with the figuring out, we've talked so much about how their role players are playing better, the percentages are better. That is the result of a source thing that I think is going to be different in this series because the entry points for the NICs, I think are going to be stressed in a way that they have not been stressed in previous. Like the Cavs didn't have the ball.

The Knicks have not faced the ball pressure or the rim protection that the spurs are going to throw out at them. And I think that they have ball pressure options here that are going to, they're going to be able to play very aggressively at the entry point of cat, whether or not that's Fasel, whoever it is. And they're going to be able to be very aggressive and put OG and bridges and whoever it is in the position to be more decision makers, I think that could be a big difference. That is one of the key things that I'm watching in this series

is their ability to really go balls to the wall on those two fronts. Yeah, and that's why I think this shooting is so critical. I mean, you could say that about every series on the board, but this one in particular, just considering how well the Knicks are shooting, but also how much that will force the spurs to be a little bit more outside of their comfort zone and play Wembe in situations where you can't just, like, deter,

literally everything in the paint. I do wonder if this is like a call for shamit because he's just been shooting the shit of the ball. I think he missed one three in the entire Eastern Conference finals, which is saying something. But now that would give them a five out strategy, which could be like advantageous offensively. On the flip side of that, like it also, if you're playing him alongside Brunson, that's like two targets out there.

Then all of a sudden, like, you see the Spurs guards being able to like go to work against two different targets as opposed to just Brunson. And so it's a tough juggling act. And so there's a lot to work with, but I could also see it just flipping very quickly if the spurs are able to work that advantage. Yeah, because when you think about what the Knicks alternatives are, it is like, okay, are we going to put Shaman out there?

Are we going to put Deuce McBride out there? Every alternative that the Knicks have with Mitchell Robinson, we're assuming sidelined, at least for the start of the series, maybe he ends up playing in it and playing a role. Well, he says he's going to play. Just from game one, he's going to go out there with a broken hand. For a guy who mostly just dunks. Like that's, yeah.

And it's also like, because it's been reported as like a broken pinky, but like I think the New York Post had something that it's also the metacarpal of the hand. So it's a broken hand. It's not just the pinky. Which hand is it? I mean, with Mitch does it matter?

Not that he's a shooter. It's going to affect his live dribble passing. How's that good? But I think Emily, it probably does like affect his relentlessness on the glass, like his ability to hold and control the ball. Like all that stuff is really important. and all the other options the NICs have are to go small in some way or another.

It's in his right hand, for the record. Okay. Good to know it's in the right. I mean, here's the thing. When you start, if the Spurs by putting Victor Wemianama on Josh Hart can kind of nudge the Nix to these sort of five-out lineups with more spacing on the floor, you're trading off Hart's rebounding, which I think is really important in a series like this.

You're trading off some of the chaos in like the full court, random transition sorts of possessions that Hart has a way of like infusing himself into. And you're giving up some defensive size too. Like I actually think Landry Shamit is targetable, but like pretty competitive on the ball. Like he will actually fight and like do his due diligence in a matchup. Brunson is targetable though.

Deuce McBride, even though he's an absolute dog, like you can shoot over the top of him if you have enough size working in your advantage. And so I do worry about all those like downstream effects for the Knicks if Josh Hart becomes a problem because Victor Webbenyama a feels like he's everywhere, and I kind of suspect that he will, you just have to go smaller so quickly.

And we haven't even talked about, like, what happens if Cat or OG, God forbid, get in foul trouble in this series? And what do you even do trying to guard Wembe the other way? Yeah, when Kat gets in foul trouble? And that's another thing where it's just like, not only is Cat probably prone to do that, even the midst of like this Renaissance that he's having,

but like how much of that's going to spark the transition on the other side of it? And like, if you get like the Fury Road going for the story, going for the spurs, like, all of a sudden, like, that means so much more it feels like in this series than some of the past that they've had just because the spurs are just absolute terrors in that regard. Who do you think is their duff warrior? Like, who's the guy shred the guitar?

You weren't going to just throw that out there. That was going to get. Is it plumbly? Oh, it might be. Or Bismack, honestly. Yeah. One of those two guys for sure. Yeah, I don't know.

I'll have to ponder that one. So on the flip side of thing here, so they, in previous matchups, cat has guard Wembe, and then you could effectively, I guess, hide Brunson on Champany, and then you're basically just sticking the, the perimeter guys on the three guards here. Do you expect anything, like, beyond that? And, like, I guess how do we feel about that in terms of the next side of things? I mean, I think they'll probably have to use Brunson as a bit of a whack-a-mole,

like, scrambling him out of some of that matchups if they try to target him by, like, bringing Champany up to set ball screens. you can kind of like hide him on Vassell sometimes if Brunson is willing to fight through some of the off ball stuff. That's an if. But I think that's what it has to be is a little even a less like what is the one spot on the floor and how do we keep Brunson moving within our defense to make it more difficult to be targeted. This has been brought up a few times too is that I don't know like if if Wimby has cat on him. I see that being a potential foul issue like you all were alluding to like he's, Wimby, I think, could get past him.

I don't know that he's as physical a defender, even as Hardenstein. I don't know how you all feel about that, but I could see him causing him problems, and there is a little bit of a history of O.G., doing a decent job of getting up under Wemby and causing him problems. I almost expect that to be the matchup.

Well, yeah, I think OG, if you're going to carve someone out of stone, basically be like, let's just figure out a Wembe defender. I think he would look sort of like that. He literally is carved out of stone, am I right? I mean, you've seen that guy? What a guy. But I think that leads to the question of where you stick at that point.

You would probably want to hide them on Champagne, but Brunson's already over there under the covers, just like trying to get by. I also think Mitchell Robinson has had some success with Wembe in the past. And I also think, like, Mitchell Robinson matters a lot in this year, not only because, like, they require so many of the extra possessions to do what they do, like they're just so physical on the boards. but also like to stress the potential minutes for Wembe because all of a sudden like I imagine

you would want to match Robinson's minutes with Cornette in an ideal world. But if Robinson is having success and Cornett isn't up to the task, like do you have to rush Wemby back and all of a sudden like that starts to spin in other ways. And so like I feel like this broken hand, which seems like it occurred under suspicious circumstances. It didn't happen during basketball the next you're saying. And so like maybe he was just so mad. Maybe he was spackling. Why are you throwing him to the wolves like that? I can relate.

This is one of the most dad injuries of all time. I was reaching for my son's lunchbox and a stack of pyrexes slid off on my left hand. Oh, my God. It's the stupidest injury. I mean, like, and I would, like, scream. And it was broken for like a year. Those slickers don't. I don't know if you've had one of those.

It was so painful I had to sleep with it flat on my bed at night. Like, it was like it would hurt. and I'd still play basketball. And if somebody hits that while you're playing basketball, it's, it is rough. I can't imagine. I'm not a dunker. I'm not a dunker, as you guys know.

What the finals were dictated by some rogue Tupperware? And that's just what knocked Mitchell Robinson out? The injury you described sounds horrific. I'm sorry you broke your hand in that way. I hope that's not how Mitchell Robinson broke his hand. I also think, too, like, if he is not Mitchell Robinson, we've seen the Knicks be like a really good, like all-around rebounding team in these playoffs.

The spurs are not a team that usually. goes after the offensive glass in a super aggressive way, like tactically, but they absolutely could. Like if Mitchell Robinson isn't Mitchell Robinson, Kat and or OG get into foul trouble, the Knicks are playing small. There's going to be a lot of opportunity for second chances for San Antonio if they want to pursue that. And, you know, there's the transition tradeoffs, but I think it could be worth it for them. Those were some of the biggest plays of the game. Yeah, the one, even the missed shot in game seven, I think Champany, one dribbled that pull up two and Castle was just wide open and caught it

and rebound and put it in and then Harper and things like that. I was curious to do though, like the second unit part of it. You were talking about Cornette in this series. That was such a huge assumed advantage that OKC had. I don't know that it's as much of an advantage in this one because I feel like their second units are way, way more evenly matched. Well, speak on that.

Like what specifically do you see in that? Harper. I mean, Harper, I think Harper's got way more space to play in that second unit if they just run them out one to one. like that. That's the biggest thing, honestly. And I don't think Cornett's is overmatched, honestly, in the second unit as he was against OKC.

And especially if that rebounding ends up being a factor in the series, like Cornett can be a really great offensive rebounder. So there's just like a lot of, like there's the big advantages that the spurs have. And then there's a lot of ways they can clean up around the edges that have me a little bit worried about the Knicks, especially because everything we just said about New York and how agile they are tactically, all that stuff is harder to pull off of Wemby as on the floor, right? Like the idea of like, oh, we're going to hit these cutters.

No cutter really looks like they're open when Wemby is playing the field. And like, oh, we want to tap into like part of the reason McHale's been so good over the course of these playoffs is because he's become a driver again and it's not all jump shooting. That's a different proposition if Wembe is waiting for you in the pain. And the same is true of OG. So it's like all of the layers that the Knicks have introduced that have Brunson playing great basketball but also have empowered all these other guys, they are sort of challenged structurally by just having Victor Wembeyanama out there, not guarding Josh Hart, especially

if that's the case. Yeah, it is funny because the Knicks, like, spent so long digging in the crates in order to find, like, a credible bench. And it does feel like all of a sudden, like, they're up against just an abnormal bench. We're just like, these guys should be starting in different situations. And so, like, the Alvarado types, the Clarkson types, all of a sudden, they just feel overmatcher unless they can just catch wind. like the special MSG moment all of a sudden Alvarado has a five-minute stretch where he's just causing terror.

I can see that. But other of that, just like on paper feels like a pretty big disadvantage. And also like, let's see Carter Bryant. Like he seems built for this because at least physically, like, matches up fairly well. We'll see like what state of emotional distress he's in based on some of the mistakes he's making on the court. But like, I don't know, it just feels like the spurs are almost like backloaded with the type of guys who can erase a lot of those advantages. We say that, but it's like the Knicks have found ways to get like great things out of Jordan Clark sitting in these playoffs. It's like legitimately playing nine deep and every one of those nine guys has had a huge like hero moment in some series in some game or another.

So I don't take, I don't take for granted anything that New York's bench does anymore. But Dylan Harper is a tough standard for any bench to measure up to. Kelton Johnson, I thought it was just instrumental for the Spurs over six and seven of the Western Conference finals in particular. like they're going to have to provide a lot. Like, Deuce McBride is going to have to shoot better. Landry Shammett is going to have to still be a conquering hero somehow. Like these guys are going to have to continue to deliver in ways that may not even be fair to expect, but it's like that's what a title requires.

Yeah. I mean, that variance just comes down to whether those guys, we're assuming Dylan shows up like he did. He's a rookie. There are ups and downs. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he ebbs and flows a little bit in a way that hurts them. You're talking about Kelden, man. Some of those threes he put up, I was like, oh, Kelden, what are you?

And like, they went in, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, I was like, my heart would have been racing if I were Spurs fan. But that stems the brakes. Those are the margins, right? This is kind of just what I've been saying in my mind about this entire series where it's like, well, what about this for the Spurs? And what about that? What about that?

But then it's just like the Knicks might just be charmed in this because every time you think, like, whatever advantages they've had would just run out. Like the fact that they're shooting would just all of a sudden, like, law of averages flip back the other way. It just hasn't at this point. And like, maybe it just doesn't. we'll see. It kind of gets us into our next question, which is like the magic of the finals, basically. We have two teams that based on their winning would be a pretty huge mark in history.

Wembe would win his first title at 22 years old, or the Knicks would win their first since the early 70s. Which one like kind of gets you in your fields the more? Like what's the, what's the warm and fuzzy outcome that you're looking forward to here? I think for me it's the Knicks. and the history is part of it. It's bigger than that, though. It's not just like, oh, it's been so long. Like, there are longer suffering fan bases by, like, when loss, by playoff droughts.

Like, the Knicks have had some good teams here and there. They've never been quite on this level in a long time. But, like, it wasn't that long ago that, like, Mitchell Robinson was playing with Emmanuel Moodye and Alonzo Trier and, like, Ennis Cantor slash freedom. Like, the recent history of the Nix has not been all that great. And I would say this fan base has dealt with like about as much like insane shit as maybe any other fan base in the league. Sixers possibly accepted.

That's a particularly strange and cursed situation. And so the idea of Knicks fans getting to celebrate a team purely on the merits, purely on getting here, purely on the vibes, based on like the narrative arc of pulling their season together and the way that they, did, I just think it's been such a rich and satisfying part of this. And so getting to see New York celebrate a championship Knicks team would be amazing. And getting them to see it like to celebrate a team like that that like many great champions had its moment in the regular season where it's like, are these guys just going to completely fall apart?

And they definitively did not and pulled it all together and somehow became better and more to get like more cohesive than we ever would have expected. that's what I want out of sports. And so if the Knicks were to win, I think the process of getting there would be pretty rich. I mean, I think you can't lose. This is a win-win for us because there's a lot of cool stuff going on. But I think there's obviously the big part of the Knicks fans,

the history, all that stuff in a place that loves basketball to an abnormal extent on all fronts. But within that like polypocket of a narrative, there's a lot of little pieces within it. I only thought of it because the only reason I thought of Polly Pocket is my son has a SpongeBob Polly Pocket and it's been on top of mine lately. He loves that thing. What was the name of the like when we were growing up, the lack of a better description? Yeah, the boy version.

It's like it was like Monster Mike or something. It was like. Yeah. Yeah, maybe it was a Mad Max. It could be. A lot of Mad Max. Who's going to see that? Are there enough Gen X guys going to see that Masters of the Universe, He Man movie, by the way?

if you'll see it looks like the worst thing I've ever seen in my life I can't sorry I don't know if you'll work I gotta go see it for content tonight so I'm not looking forward to it When Skeletor started to talk I was like Oh Jesus Christ So I googled boy version of Polly Pocket

And it was Mighty Max Mighty Max. Mighty Max We love your Mighty Max fucking ripped Some real Skellito vibes from Mighty Max for sure That's right sure Castle Grey's skull All that stuff But within, you know, there are a lot of little nice narratives within that big Polly Pocket. Just better branding Polly Pocket.

True. Better product. Yeah, better product. But, you know, there's the Villanova tie. There's the chemistry rolling forward from college. These guys are playing together. There's the, we figured our shit out stuff with cat. There's redemption for cat.

There's a lot of stuff going on there. There's Tibbs is pissed. What's going on with Tibbs? How many pencils is Tibbs going to snap angrily watching this? Because people snap pencils. angrily watching basketball games. But then on the other side, I think we can't lose just because, granted, we expect Wimby to be here. I mean, I think we all are just, we think he's on this track and it's like it's early, but he'll

probably be, you know, either outcome I'll be happy with. But I have to tilt towards the Knicks because of their history and all those things that I said. I saw someone jokingly say that if Wembe loses this finals, that all of a sudden he can't be better than Michael Jordan, which really, I think, put things into perspective about, like, how early the arrival has been here and how much in the long run, like, it matters, and which is to say that, like, you will have perhaps a decade plus career of these sorts of opportunities. And so this is just the precipice of that. Having said that, though, I think in the long run, when we look back 15 years from now, it probably will matter more because of stupid things like that, because

if you don't win every single one, if we're having bar room discussions about who's the best player and all this other stuff, that will get brought up. That Wemba lost the title and, like, Jordan did not. It lost the finals. And so I think for the long run,

I think the Wembe one matters more. I think in the short term, the Nix one is just, it's front and center. It has to be one of the longest suffering NBA fan bases that we've seen. It's funny because, like, you know, whenever a team makes a title, though just be those boilerplate headlines you see in things.

I think I saw it on ESPN. It's like, the Spurs make their first NBA finals since 2014. I was like, that wasn't that long ago. Like, for me, like, I think that was yesterday. And so, like, there really hasn't been a ton leading to. This is the start of something. The Knicks are just hoping desperately to reclaim something that they've been pining for. For what is this now?

This is five decades. It's 53 years, I think it is. It's wild. It's been a long run, man. And, yeah, I hear everything we're saying about, the spurs too and the idea that they would just like we assume they would be back here we assume this is not the last we'll see of them but as far as like how these teams got here the nicks were so unsparing in their deconstruction of all these last couple rounds that like there wasn't a lot of

drama to it and i think by contrast the sort of game seven days that you described kyle like coming off of it like i was just sitting there on my couch being like what did we just watch like how did that happen how did the team that we kind of all expect in the thunder to have the answers, to be marching down an opponent, to be, like, responding with all the big shots. They looked like they were just, like, out of gas, out of responses, out of players who could hit the shots that they needed them to hit.

And I was just, like, left there reckoning with what the spurs are right now, which is not something that I think we expected to be doing this season. And certainly, we've done enough guessing as to, like, what the next couple of years of this franchise could look like. But the head of schedule part is it arguable at this point. Like, these guys are too young,

in theory to be doing this, and yet they're debunking all of that shit in style with like a flare that's so impressive to watch, with a calmness to them that is, I really don't know how to describe or explain. They do feel like a team that even now, I'm like trying to wrap my head around

how this is possible, even more so than the Knicks. I'm going to throw out what I said before because with Wimby... Just the whole pot or what? No, yeah, everything I've said, Scrap, let's start up. I want to retake.

No, it's, with Wimby, I think it's honestly, you can't operate with any kind of past, any kind of precedent with how you're thinking about how this matters because the league is changing how easy it is to keep these teams together. And it gets late. We've learned repeatedly not to take title windows for granted. And Wimby's an interesting case where you hope he stays healthy. I want him to. But this is all, it feels, I hope.

I hold my breath every time he goes down, you know, there's that side of it. But, you know, I think we should learn to like not assume, and maybe this is me teaching myself in real time, that, you know, maybe this. We always assume that he's going to get back, but these, it's gotten difficult, more difficult on the cap side to do it. And I don't know, man. We're 15 months removed from him being shut down with a blood clot that might have altered the shape of his career. and now he is the most dominant player in the Western Conference en route to the NBA finals. We knew that was possible, but it's still shocking. And how many times in the past five years, whenever a new winner emerged,

was it like, this team could win two of the next three or three of the next four? I think the thunder, it's like it was warranted. But like there is this, I think, rush to proclaim a new era of dominance. And all of a sudden, like, that's not how old the NBA works anymore. And perhaps it's like we need to get used to it. I will say this is the stress test of that theory. What we were talking about before of like parody, eight in a row different. Like maybe this is just how it is.

Like we could also be on the precipice of pre and post-wempe dominance. Could be. He could just erase the next five years of history. But you're right. Like I just don't know how many, how much these new things are affecting, like, how we've come to learn the emergence of like the next great town. But what are we supposed to proclaim? Like, we love to proclaim on this show. And we can't even proclaim the ends of errors, the beginning of errors.

Like, we'll find something else. I feel confident in that. How much you proclaim a winner of this series? Because last question on the document, number five. Prediction time. And you should know that whatever you say here will be held against you and will ripple through time in the same way of, like, Wembe's legacy. Thank you.

No pressure. I think it's Burson 6. I feel like that answer is probably a cop-out. It's like the classic, like we're giving respect to the other team. But I want to qualify with this. I think the Knicks can absolutely win this series. I think that the pieces are there. We talk through a lot of them in terms of the unique challenges that they post for the Spurs.

I just see like a couple more avenues for San Antonio to make New York uncomfortable and to destabilize what's gotten the Knicks to this point, that I lean slightly in that direction. But I think, think things could swing pretty erratically. I just, I have a hard time talking myself into watching the Spurs team that we just saw come up with all of these defensive responses to the Thunder and an energy advantage and a momentum advantage against an opponent of that caliber, not find a version of that to do for the Knicks, even though it'll require something quite different.

I, I went into this thing as we talked through the series and kind of the matchups and the problems that could come up, I had come into this thing with this like creeping suspicion that the Knicks could get it done. And I do think they could get it done. But I think I would just tilt ever so slightly towards San Antonio because of that. Granted, they have a lot of, they have a lot of variables that, like, certain young players playing well, certain matchups going well. It is a different series. You know, it's different for the Knicks facing the Spurs, but it's also the Knicks are going to pose them some different problems, too, with their competence at that, like, two, three, four spot with their size and their shooting.

I tilt towards the Spurs and seven. I had previously tilted towards the Knicks and seven as I'm just ever so slightly tilted towards the spurs but I agree like I really don't want to like downplay how good the Knicks are like I do think they could win it so that that's kind of where I am I have a lot of respect for both teams in it and almost a toss up tilting towards the spurs.

Is it wrong to say that the Knicks stress the Spurs as disadvantages in ways that even the Thunder did not? Like this matchup overall is actually one. worse for the spurs than it was with the thunder especially with jdub out i think that is true and to play it the other way too i think if the thunder had survived the western conference finals i think i'd be picking the nicks right now like i think both the spurs and the nicks are unique challenges for each other which is what's going to make this series so fun to watch and see these guys try to navigate it but yeah new york tack like they just do they have developed all of this

muscle memory for how to tap into these different elements of their offense that a thunder team certainly without J. Dub and A.J. Mitchell. They just don't have the flexibility to do that. And also home court, right? That's a thing here too. True. I could see in my mind's eye that the Knicks are winning. Like you guys, like I could see it all playing out.

I could see Timothy Shalmay wearing some like oversized shirt, just like high-fiving a random guy on the floor at the Spurs Arena because all of a sudden the Knicks are bigger and battered and just came in there at least a game. But I just, I get back to the fact that, like, it really does have to be towns, I think, playing at the level that he'd been at before. And I just can't see him conquering what I've known about him for so long in order to, to defeat, like, a team like the Spurs. And with Wembe is just the ultimate sort of, just a component here, variable, dare I say. And so I went Spurs and Six.

I really wish I had the fortitude to go Knicks and Six because that was my initial, like, what I wrote down. but then I went through it all and I couldn't stick to it. But Spurs and Six, we're all Spurs. You heard this, Dix fans. I had more respect for you. I said Spurs and Seven. These two said Spurs and Six. More.

I respect them most. But this is the problem with the sort of like, I'm going to take the screen grab of like all the picks of the people just like Spurs, Spurs, Spurs, Spurs, Spurs. Because I do suspect there will be a strong Spurs consensus and the prediction for all this. You just can't like Rotten Tomatoes this shit. Like it's really not as simple as like 87,

percent of quote- talking heads and puns. They're all You can just explain it all you want. Nobody's going to have that in the clip.

It's not going to make the clip, man, I'm sorry. What are you trying to add context? Continue hedging if you'd like, but... Look,

I'm going to keep fucking proclaiming all day, including if it's adding context. Well, Kyle has the extra game cushion, so he's got the seven. He's been high-roaded us for sure. I had one thing about Wimby here

because Wimby's the central thing of this is that people keep saying that he's generational. I don't, I don't, this is going to sound in, what generation, you know, how is that true? I don't think he's generational. I think he's multi-generational. He's bicentennial?

Yeah. I just don't. Because he's never, he's unlike anything we've ever seen. Like people have made up that, that clip of him contesting that Jared McCain. I rewound that in slow motion over and over again, him contesting that corner three in transition. I don't, that was one of the most incredible plays I've ever seen in my life. I've never seen anyone do anything like that.

I just don't. So that was what, maybe that's an absurd thing to say, but I don't even think he's generational. Like, I don't, I don't know where to put the cap on it. And we're about to see him make 30 plays a game like that on the biggest stage in the sport with that sweet, sweet trophy on the floor in the background. Like, I'm already looking forward to the iconography of this series, right? Like, what are the moments, as we talked about coming out of game seven that we're going to remember forever?

I have no idea what Wemby will be capable of in that regard, but I put nothing past him. Yeah, good luck, Jalen Brunson. Well, we will be coming to you next time after game one. We'll be recording Wednesday night. So look for that in your feeds, late Wednesday, early Thursday morning. But from there, we'll wrap things up. Thank you to Ben Cruz.

Thank you to Jeff for filling in on production. We'll talk to you next time. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1 800 gambler or 1-800-My-Reset. Call 1888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gamblinghelpline MA.org or call 800-327-50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. or call 1-8778-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope-N-Y in New York, Louisiana, call 1877-770-7867.