The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Finals Verrierables! Plus, Who Should Replace Thibs in New York? | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here, and the Verrierables are back, to preview the NBA Finals. They start with the news of the Knicks firing Tom Thibodeau (3:12). Then they dive into the Verrierables (17:40), getting into how each team matches up with the other, some legacy talk (1:01:42), predictions (1:15:05), and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Music Theme: John Robison Social: Keith Fujimoto This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me for this special NBA finals preview edition. Rob Mahoney, Big Was, coming to you live on a Wednesday, breaking the nightly cadence before we get into the playoff action. Was, you getting time and a half for doing this pod? You can say that. And that, uh, listen, man. Listen, we're salaried employees. enjoy a great health care plan.

You know what I mean? 4-1K getting fully matched, you know? Stock portfolio looking decent these days. I'm not afraid to do an extra pot or two, man. It's all good. Count your blessings wazes is one of my favorite wazas, I got to say. Just really taking stock of what matters in his life. Come on, man.

Everything is going great. I'm happy to be up here with my brothers. That's all. That's right. special day, not only because are we on the precipice of a new NBA finals. We're also going to preview them variable style, which is always an event on the calendar. How many times a year? Couldn't tell you. It kind of just happens as much as it needs to. But the finals, I think we've been doing every single year. But before we get into the exciting action, I have a bit of sobering news

here. I think you guys have been tracking breathlessly my gardening exploits. Yes. And I, I am loath to admit that we lost a family member, two family members over the weekend. Not the corns. Our corn brothers have been ripped from their roots. Was it a crow? Was it a squirrel? Was it Rob just coming in to smite me? I would never.

The corn bros. Mr. and Mrs. Corn are among my closest friends. I would never do anything to hurt them. The children of the corn, the New York Stock Exchange. Yeah, they both were. were ravaged sometime over the weekend. And unfortunately, we have to start fresh. So if I'm a little bit morose on this pod, a little down, that's why.

Well, we're here for you, Justin. I mean, how do you plan to rally from this? Is this a one game at a time situation? Are you looking to move on and replant? What are your plans for the future? Well, luckily, they kind of just grow back. So I don't really have to do anything. I're already starting to see some new growth.

It's a real like hope springs eternal kind of message to us all. Although I do have to wonder, why, do you think this is, a bad omen for the Indiana Pacers home of the actual corn bros. Yeah, I mean, not the best of omens, especially how indie-friendly our pod has been. But probably a worse omen is that they're playing the best defensive team in the NBA by far. And they're going to be in their shirts. That's right.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are then. when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist coverage options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility vary by state. Before we get to the variables, though, we have to talk briefly once again about Tom Tibido because we talked about it after that

loss to the Pacers in the East Finals, but officially Tom Tibodeau is now. out as coach as of Tuesday afternoon as we're recording this. Not a total surprise, I think, just because this has kind of been whispered. Rob, what do you think? Would you have done this? I think is probably a better question. I probably would not, but I'm a little more cautious, I would say, overall. I think I personally am just like adjusting to the post results era of NBA coaching

in which getting to the conference finals does not save your job. winning an NBA title does not save your job. Having a long contract doesn't save your job. These owners are proving willing to ax these guys based on the feel of the locker room. I think the vibes as far as the direction of the team go. And that can be a more nebulous thing. It can also be a more truthful thing. I think there are valid basketball reasons to fire Tom Thibodeau.

I just don't know that I would have been so eager to do it given the alternatives that are out there on the coaching market right now. Yeah, I think this would have felt like a surprise. four or five months ago. But after what Denver and Memphis did to their coaches and when they did it, I don't think we can be surprised by a coach in fire anymore. And that's before we get to what Rob mentioned,

there being actual basketball reasons. In my opinion, I thought the Knicks needed to revamp their offense, like really reimagine their approach on that end of the court if they wanted to be, you know, ultimately a team that could go to the NBA football. finals next year. And it seemed unlikely that Tom Tibido by himself was going to be the catalyst to that. Like, as much success as Tibbs has enjoyed, like, the first two years in Chicago, you know, I'm finally getting Minnesota off the Schneide. The Knicks, quite frankly, their first back-to-back

50-win season in 30, 30 years, first conference finals, 25 years. Like, Tibbs has had success as a coach. Nobody's ever thought he's had a creative offense. ever in the history of his tenure. You know, he made his bones with Van Gundy, with Doc Rivers, as a defensive sort of genius. Like, he revolutionized defense, you know, in the ways that he approached the game. And so I was like, hey, man, maybe Leon Rose and World Wide West

could be like, look, tips, we're going to bring in some kind of offensive coordinator, guru, if you will, because we need to revamp this thing. But even that, isn't that what happened in Memphis this year? And ultimately they just fired the guy anyway, who they bought an offensive coordinator for. So, like, when you really look at the way the rest of the league is going, we can't be that surprise that Tibbs got the axe.

Yeah, I think the most movement in the Knicks offense this postseason was Jalen Brunson just jerking his head back. Other than that, there wasn't much, especially in contrast to what Indy was doing. But on your note, Rob, about firings in the NBA at the head coach level. So the two longest tenured coaches in the NBA right now, Eric Spolstra, Steve Kerr, I think you can get those because they've been around for a while. They've been in prominent positions, won titles, etc.

Can you guys name the third longest NBA coach in the league right now? Great question. Is it Tailu? So technically the same season, but this person was hired. like a month before him. Maybe Jamal Mosley? He's like within the top 10. Was, what do you think?

Wait, who do we got as the, we got Spolster, obviously, is by far the longest 10 years. And Steve Kerr out as well. Oh, and Steve Kerr. Is it Dagnol? Dagnol, same year. So you guys got two of the three from that season, but technically the coach hired before them

was one Billy Donovan of the Chicago. go Bulls. Okay. And he's not fired yet? Not yet. If anything, I saw some numbers indicating that the Bulls' pace was right up there with the pacer's in terms of just like how much they're moving the ball and moving the bodies. I'm just saying, with the Bulls propaganda constantly. How did that work out for them? Not as well. But, you know, we're thinking long term here, much like my corn, you know, you turn to the page. Yeah. So I do think. What year did Taloo get hired? It was the pan. year. So 2020, 2020. So, oh, after Doc blew the 3-1 lead,

they fired him. Yes, exactly. Got you. That's how it used to work. You blow the lead in the playoffs and you get fired. Now you beat the defending champions and you get fired. So the list of names that are circulating, and I don't think a lot of it's based on reporting. I think it's just more putting two and two together. Yeah, Mike Malone, for instance,

is on ESPN. He just got fired, like Jeff Van Gundy, for instance, has obviously the history with the Knicks. But I haven't heard. Rob one candidate that like made so much sense for the specific problem the Knicks have or that would have led them to fire Tibbs. Anyone you see out there that would be a clear match? I do not. And this is kind of the crux of the problem for me.

I actually think Jeff Van Gundy would be a good choice. And if he's willing to consider it excellent choice. Yeah, the history is there. Like the reputation within New York is there. The track record is there. He also just did an amazing job overhauling the Clippers defense. And so we talked about those two paths for the Knicks, right? Was it's like you can either revamp the offense and tweak it to make it even more efficient, even more high achieving.

If you're going to run and gun and be an offense first team, you just need to be better and more stable on offense than the Knicks were. Or you could dramatically improve the defense in some way. You can do that with personnel. You can do that with coaching. You could go any number of ways. Tibbs is the kind of defensive coach who likes his style and is not the most flexible and is not the most adaptive. And I think the Knicks struggled with that sometimes is they try to toggle into swings. more during the playoffs and in different kinds of coverages.

They just weren't used to it. And so then you get this lag time where they're not transitioning as quickly and they're losing games. All of that said, I do not imagine, and this is me putting myself in Jeff Van Gundy's head a lot. Jeff Van Gundy is someone who has spoken an incredible amount over the years about his relationship with Tom Thibodeau about their time coaching together. Like, I do not think that Jeff Van Gundy would succeed Tom Thibodeau in a job.

Just like on principle, I don't think he would do it. Now, if the head coaching job available to you is to coach a team as good as the Knicks in a market like New York, maybe all of a sudden those principles start to fade away. But the Jeff Van Gundy we've been hearing from as a commentator and a coach over the last decade plus, I don't think takes that job. Well, in a world where Leon Rose can fire his brother, Tom Tipito, that's what we're told. These guys are thickest thieves, La Familia. That's the credo up there with World Wide West. and Leon Rose and the CAA crew, if they could fire tips,

granted, he's going to get paid $30 million to leave. I mean, not a bad consolation prize, if you ask me. Also, the last time he got fired and he was collecting checks while making the coaching rounds to various training camps, as happy as I have ever seen Tom Thibodeau. So no one wants to get fired, but there are blessings and curses when you got 30 mil on the books.

I'm just saying in a world where Leon Rose could fire Tom Tibido, why can't Jeff Vanne? Gangney step right up. Like, you know, I hear you and just like spiritually and emotionally it feels wrong. But I mean, in my opinion, especially post-tatem Achilles, the Knicks have as much talent as everybody on the board. Like, it's just obvious to me in that conference. So I think it's a golden opportunity.

I love the Jeff Van Gundy idea. I think Van Gundy is smart enough about offense to know that, like, he can't treat this like it's 99 with Marcus Camby and Larry Johnson again. And so I personally love the Van Gundy idea. I'm not keen on the Mike Malone stuff. I think that's a bad, bad mixture.

If anything, what were the two knocks on Mike Malone in Denver? The offense was Yokic. Go ahead and cook. hated playing a long bench. Yep. So we're literally replacing Tibido with Tibado Jr. Like, I don't see it.

Maybe y'all think Mike Malone's a better fit than I do. I don't personally see it. If he did take that job, would he have to go back to Mike Malone? Because Michael is way too proper. He'd go to Mikey Malone. I was about to say. He's definitely Mikey in New York.

Okay, now I can definitely see the fit. A couple of, other names that I just jotted down just because these are the obvious guys who were just in the league. Taylor Jenkins, Mike Boodenholzer, who is probably just on the golf course for the next five years collecting like about like $100 million a year from the Sons organization. Mike Brown out there as well. Let's talk of Johnny Bryant.

He used to be on Tibbs coaching staff for the Knicks. Anybody else, Rob, that you like? I mean, there's lots of qualified assistance. Again, this just comes back to the problem of like, what are you? you trying to address? Is it the tactics? Is it the voice in the locker room? Like Tibbs is a very particular communicative style? Is he too harsh in a way where you're trying to pull back? Is it the defense? Is it the defense? I don't have a good enough sense of what the Knicks are actually looking for to say, this is the inexperienced assistant who's going to coach this team better than

Tom Thibodeau just did. And I say that as someone who has issues with some of the decisions he makes. I just think like expecting someone with no head coaching experience to come into this job and immediately make everything better is a little bit nice. about what tips brings to the table. Also, he better have played in the league. Like, it better be like a Sam Cassell. Like, it better be

like a guy that has some credibility with the players, because the Knicks kind of have a veteran-laden team. It's not a bunch of dudes that are wet behind the ears. So, to bring in some 34-year-old who's never played in the league, I don't know. Like, a lot of these

guys have been very coachable throughout their careers, you know, maybe Carl Towns and stuff on defense doesn't stick necessarily, but, like, he's never had a rep for being some, like, impossible to coach. Jalen Brunson, the rest of the Nova, like, these guys are all, you know, high IQ, high character, and we identify character in this business as, we'll listen to authority. Like, these guys have been high character guys, their whole career. So maybe they would listen to a younger assistant.

I just, I don't know. I feel like you got to. to bring somebody with some level of respect and credibility in there. Yeah. And there has been a bit of a sea change in that regard. And I think of Stan Van Gundy giving way to Willie Green is that like it seems like the younger generation of players tunes out some of the more old school grinders. They're a little bit more receptive to younger guys who could maybe speak to their plight

a little bit more, especially as like staves fill out and the head coaching job tends to be more of one of people management. And you let some of your other assistant coaches do more of the X and O's acumenies. in the stuff, I agree with you, wise. I do think that is important, especially when you have so many names in such a huge market. I hope it doesn't end up being Rick Brunson

because I think the tactical adjustment will be just like trying to fight Dante DiVenzo. I have a question for you guys. And it might not have, and it definitely won't happen. But I just want to throw this at you guys. Generally, obviously

there's no cap on coaches' salaries. Generally, they keep this, however, they do it, they keep the coach's salaries pretty much under control, except for what Detroit did, which was just completely insane to do that for Monty freaking Williams, whatever. Why can't James Dolan just open up the checkbook and just take anybody's coach? Just blow them out the water. He typically...

To poached them from another chase. He has done... I mean, he did that for Phil Jackson, unfortunately it was for Phil Jackson, right? What if he did that for Spolster? Well, it depends on Spolster's contract. I got 100 mil for you. Guaranteed. There have been whispers, I will say,

over the, in recent years, the Spoh has considered leaving the bosom of the heat organization. I'll say that. They should be at his door and backing the brink truck about it. Now, from what I've heard, the sphere is bleeding money. I think Dolan is a lot more money conscious than he ever used to be. So that might not be a realistic possibility.

But at the same time, you're fine to do you owe $30 million to. Yeah. That's not financially prudent either. So that's what I think the Knicks should do. I think the Knicks should just back up the brink truck to whoever they think is the best coach in the league. Why couldn't they get Steve Kerr? Why not?

What's so great about being dissed by your owner constantly in Golden State? Here's the issue with that. Steve Kerr might be down to do it. Eric Spolster might be down to do it. $100 million sign those guys up. In order to get them out of their contracts, what we've seen historically is you have to give up draft picks. which the Knicks do not have because they gave them all for Mikhail Bridges.

You know, I can't say we were anticipating this scenario, but this is maybe one of the reasons you want to keep some draft picks around among the many, many others. Just still people's coaches? Yeah. Are the Erison's interested in Packham-Dottier?

Can we do a player for Coach Lop? Have we ever seen that? Have we ever seen a player involved? I don't think so. It gets a little weird when you start getting into trading, like, Doc Rivers for Kevin Porter Jr. Or whatever.

What if they would, couldn't they just send them money? Sure. Like literally just buy the coach from them. They could. It's possible. Some coal hard cash. That's what I think they should do. But, you know, it's not my money.

So easy for me to say. If it was, you'd be higher in Isaiah at market rate. Me and Zeke. Me and Zeke in the West Village and Tribeca, just doing what we do. That's right. All right. Shall we get to the variables now? Please. I have to say, Justin, you're glowing today.

Like, I feel like you're pregnant with meaning regarding the variables. Like, you just, you have that sense about you. Like, we're about to embark on something important. Well, this is a special one because unfortunately, the last time we did this, we were flagged by Spotify, like the lawyers or whoever is watching over the copyright of the music that we used. And unfortunately, if you go back and listen to the previous. It has a different song than when we first dropped it because we had to... Wait, Justin, you're not getting original music?

I mean, it's free music. Oh, okay, okay, okay, copy, copy. Free use music, uh, it was, but this time we actually went out and got someone to record it for us. It's actually the same guy who does our theme song. It's John Robinson, my good friend, who is, as you guys know, in Indiana, like, they know now. And so perhaps this has a little extra move to it as a result. I'm ready for it. He has the corn flowing through him.

At least one of us does. So on that note, Isaiah, can you hit us with the Variables NBA Finals 2020 theme song? Oh. Yeah. Woo! Zero doubt the best one. Like it's not even close. Yeah.

It's definitely got some Beverly Hills cop. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean, too? That's the feel that I get. The bloops and the bloops, the chip tuning, like, we're really going somewhere. I feel like we lived several lives within that sting. That's absolutely right. I mean, I was listening to this on and off throughout the week, just like firing it up.

I needed to get ready to edit some copy. Just let's go. Variable Stim Song, 2025. All right. So we're going to go through, I think I have six questions down here. First and foremost, let's get into some of the tactics of the NBA finals. and we have to start, I think, with the Pacers when they have the ball, because a lot of it is going to come down to what can the Pacers get away with against this near historic OKC Thunder team and also the defense. So my question, Rob, is can any defense at this point, even the Thunder's vaunted defense, slow down what the Pacers has been able to do, pace flow, ball pinging all over the place, Halliburton doing all kind of magical stuff this postseason.

I think yes and no. I think the Thunder defense will be able to slow down the Pacers flow, especially in the half court. Not in a way that's dissimilar from the most successful Nix stretches and possessions, right? Like a lot of ball pressure, really dialing up, really picking up guys, full quarter, three quarters, cord, chasing them all the way through. And they're able to switch so much on some of those perimeter actions

in a way that I think they can keep things covered. I don't necessarily think, though, that the Thunder are going to be able to slow down the Pacers in transition. And that's going to be like a big push and pull. is like how much can you just skip over all of that hard battling against the Thunder defense by throwing the ball over the top with the Pascal Seacom leakouts with like all of those kind of trigger elements that the Pacers have at their disposal to get into the open court? Yeah, I tend to agree with Rob there.

I do think they're still going to get out in transition. I just think their transition opportunities are going to be a lot better contested. It's not that they're going to stop. It's like you're going to have to actually kind of finish over somebody on those opportunities. Whereas against the Knicks, it was just wide open dunks in transition. Lou Dork, Caruso, all of these guys, like, they make it a point of pride. Even when you have a step or two on them on the break, they just straight up, like, I'm still meeting you at the rim. Yeah.

You know, maybe I foul you. Maybe I don't. Maybe I smack it off your leg. But, like, they're going to challenge these guys. I just think they're just going to have to finish. but the chances are going to be there. So I do think they're still going to get their transition stuff off. I just think in the half court,

it's going to have to be more of a Seacom series than a Halliburton series. And I get it. He had a nice time against the Knicks, especially in like, you know, some of the bigger games, more pivotal moments. But to me, Seacom's got to be able to punish his matchups. And the paces do, will force you to,

to switch because, like, playing a conventional pick and roll against these dudes is death. And so he's going to force some switches. So it's a matter of can he get some of the Wiggins and the Wallace's and, you know, some of the smaller guys onto him to force OKC to adjust that way. But, yeah, I think in the half court they will be slowed down. Yeah, and that's why I'm curious, Rob, how much the thunder emphasized stopping things in the paint as they have throughout the posting. and that's basically their M.O. of their defense's entire season. Do you think Halliburton is going to require them to blitz more

in order to take him out in the ways that we saw increasingly over the postseason just because getting him even past the half court line going, he can make things happen? Do you think they'll try to sell out and just hope that they have enough interior or have especially if they're going to stay too big, at least to start with? Or do you basically single cover and then just harass and track and just assume, just hope that like you just impede

their freedom of movement. I think the answer is you start just trying to impede the freedom of movement. And if things go to shit, then you start looking at more dramatic options like blitzing Hallibur not right. The problem with Blitzing Halliburne is he's a pretty good, like, not just cross court passer, but cross court jump passer, where he's going to get a clear line of sight over the top of your defenders as they look to blitz him. That's going to be tough. And for as good as Alex Crusoe, for example, would be on the weak side trying to intercept those passes.

He also does enough lookoffs and he has enough options on the floor where he can find all of those guys. I think I would play it more honestly first or with some light perimeter switching at first. And really what you're trying to tackle is not negating Halliburton, but can we swipe at Miles Turner? Can we swipe at Andrew Nemhart? Like as these guys catch and try to make their move into the lane, because let's remember, like the Pacers want to get to midrange or to the basket. Like this is not a huge volume three-point shooting team. They will take threes. They obviously space for threes.

they have a lot of good shooters, but they want to get in the mix. Like they want to get in action. And that plays into the Thunder's hands a little bit because they're so disruptive on every live dribble. So Aaron Neesmith's injury, something obviously going to track there. He went out in what end of game three, played through the next two games of that series against the Knicks. I'm a little worried, especially because he had an angler injury earlier in the season, kept him out for about two months when he got back is when they really took off was. it just feels like the Pacers have done so well in large part because all five pieces are working in harmony.

There's just so much synergy, so much fast cutting, fast movement. Just like everything just seems to be on a string. And if he's not right, I do wonder if things do tail off, especially if the Thunder are going to be in their like shorts, pretty much like they have been this entire postseason. Well, I mean, the team took off when Neesmith and Nemhard found themselves. and in their roles in that starting lineup. Like, that's when Indy became Indy. So, like, I know it's crazy to say,

but this guy is crucial to their identity, especially on defense. They were so soft on defense before him and Nimhar became the sort of focal point of what they do. And, you know, even if he's not in peak form, I think his physicality is still going to leave an imprint on the game and still be able to slow these guys, especially the J-dub types.

You know, I think his presence is going to be felt no matter what. Now, look, I have a hard time believing anybody's just going to put Shay in the clamps at this point. Like, I'm sorry, like, I just don't see that in the cards for anyone. But, you know, this guy has to be, in terms of what they do perimeter-wise, with the two big dogs, he has to be prominently involved

if they're going to have even a scintilla of a chance. But I think even a limited knee-smith is so much better than what they have coming behind them. Like, we saw, like, especially early on in the Knicks series, they were freaking toast against Brunson when anybody but Neesmith was guarding them. And Nemhard had some nice moments later on this series,

but if you look, like, Brunton average, like, 34 points a game with something crazy like that in the series. You know what I mean? And a lot of it is knee-Smith getting in foul trouble and hurting his ankle and that kind of stuff. So I do think he's got to have an imprint, and I think that he will. But, you know, even I think even in the best of times, y'all, it's going to be hard for Indy to really slow these guys down. Yeah, I mean, guarding Shay is tough.

Guarding Jalen Brunson is tough, as you alluded to, Watts. And I can't imagine two players I would want to guard less on a bad ankle than those two guys. Can we talk about some of the matchups as we're sticking with when Indy has the ball here? So I assume Dor is going to get the Halliburn job, right? Well, I think that depends on if Hardinstein starts. He'll probably start. Yeah. He may start, but like Hardinstein on Miles Turner is not the most functional matchup for the Thunder in this series.

We've seen them flex and go smaller with Caruso in that spot, even with Isaiah Joe in that spot, although I don't think that's necessary against the Pacers, really. It's like a different, solving a different problem. I wouldn't be shocked to see Caruso start, if not in game one, then at some point in this series. If the Thunder feel like they need to pull that particular lever. That's a great point because as I was doing kind of the matchups there, at least from when OKC is on defense, I was curious where Chet fell into the mix if you do have Hartensstein guarding Turner or if Chet's guarding Turner, then where does Hartnstein go? I imagine like if you believe that Nemhart is more of the shooter he was in the regular season, then he's in the postseason. maybe you could be a little funny about it and just like slump off of him. Unfortunately, he is lights out in the postseason.

I think Ney Smith is shooting 50% from three. And I think Nemper is not far behind there. And so you're right. I think the one big look is probably where they're going to default to. And I have a stat for that because that lineup has been absolutely fucking lights out. When Chet is on the court and Hartenstein is off. So basically when Chet is the go-to center there, 19. net rating in 272 minutes.

The offensive rating is 123.8. The defensive rating 104.5. That's absolutely unreal-wise. So you're basically forcing them into the line if they probably are best at.

Yeah, it's funny because I don't think Chet is your Siakam guy. Not at all for this series. Because like Siakam has a lot of Shay in him. He's going to knock your ass back straight up to create the space. He specializes in that move. And I don't think Chet is the guy to kind of influence that.

I think you do need to put somebody with a little bit more heft. I think Lou Dort is a nice matchup for Seacom for that reason. Like, he's hard to move in that way where, yeah, Seacom could shoot over him, but he's not going to just, you know, power through this guy to get these plum looks that he's so incredible at generating. You know, I think a lot of people, especially when I was looking at the internet, like, well, Shay's going to, I mean, Chet's obviously going to guard Siakum. I'm like, I don't know if I want to do that, man, putting files on my guy, like, and also drawing him from his help responsibilities. Like, I don't, I don't want to do that.

I think Hartinstein is a decent matchup. Again, I think you want to put some heft on the Siakum way more than you need foot speed. I think you need heft. I think you need, you know, somebody who's going to actually withstand the force that this guy plays. with when he's trying to get to the cup. And so that's what I'll definitely be watched. Because I think Seacom has to be the one, you know, creating advantages and forcing OKC to send some obvious help.

Because, I mean, again, I've been wrong before about Nemhart and Neesmith and what they could do on offense. Maybe they will do it again against OKC. I just don't think those guys are going to be offensive drivers. I just don't. Yeah, I mean, there's going to be a lot asked of them at points in this series, But I think J-Dub is the natural pick to guard Siakam at a lot of points too, someone who doesn't have the size that you're talking about,

was, but we've seen him guard Biggs all throughout these playoffs with no issue whatsoever. He has the quick hands, too. Quick hands. And I think here's the thing that really worries me about Chet is when you think about the thunder on offense trying to transition into defense to guard the Pacers, where is Chet on the floor? Sometimes he's in the corner. Sometimes he's in the dunker spot on the baseline.

Sometimes he's spotting up at the top of the floor, but he's not the quickest to turn and bolt back in transition defense. Like, he's a big. And you're expecting him to keep up with Pascal Seacom as he gets out on the break with the ball and without over and over and over again. I think that's asking a bit too much of him.

Not just to speed the conditioning too. Like his condition isn't peak formula. He's still a young guy. He's kind of barely played in the freaking NBA, if we're being honest, in terms of games played. Like, he's not prime condition. And Indy is going to test.

that, you know, at every single point. Yep. And for that track meet sort of pace that I think we're all expecting, I would expect that the thunder will go deep into their like small ball center looks. I think we'll get a lot of J-dub at center and a bunch of wings out there. I think we'll see Kenrich Williams probably a lot in this series as a result of that. And that's the thing. Like do the pacers really have someone who could punish their lack of size? Like Turner's not that guy. So it will probably have to be Siakum in order to tilt the advantage back in their direction. All right. Why don't we look at the other side of the ball with the thunder, Isaiah, drop the beat.

Punchy. A little shorter this time, a little different. Keeping you on your toes. Okay, okay. All right. So I kind of just want to ask, like, do the Thunders really have a shot here? I think the hope would be that you just keep them out of transition, and the Paysers have been so good wise at, like, protecting the ball, this entire post. season, that combination of being able to, for the thunder, being able to turn teams over and

protect the ball is almost unbeatable at this point. But a lot of this is just probably going to come down to can you keep them in the half court one? And then what can you do against that look when you're there? Can you yourself be a transition team while keeping the other team out of transition? You can, I think. Okay. I mean, I don't see, I think the Pacers are largely pretty good at that, because they are a low turnover team typically. And they do get back really well. off of like, say, long rebounds that might result in transition opportunities against other teams. But

a thunder a little bit of a different beast. It is tough, though, because it ultimately, Rob, it feels like a lot of this series is going to be dictated, one, by ball control, which is probably not the sexiest cell if you're a common fan, but also I think you can transition. Not turning the ball over and throwing up on yourself,

that's attractive to me. People that don't do that. That's a good point. No, we're an anti-vomit podcast, but also being played in transition. So I guess if it isn't, the Pacers really have as much of a chance because of the personnel isn't as suited, especially with knee-smith being injured in order to line up with three guys when they're clicking in SGA, Chet, J-dub, who seemed pretty formidable as that series in the West Finals went along.

Yeah, I think it's going to be a tough series for the Pacers on this side of the ball. They're a good defensive team, but they do need a healthy Aaron Neesmith to throw at Shea and otherwise. They just need the stable of guys to try to disrupt what the thunder are bringing here offensively. I see really mixed results for them on that end of the floor. I just don't think they're going to be able to do it consistently enough. We have enough of a sample now to trust some of these OKC shooters. Like, Lou Doord is not going to hit every night. J. Dove might not hit every night.

Alex Crusoe has been pretty good consistently. He's hit every night. Keeson Wallace has been pretty good consistently from three. They have enough guys who are hitting that you can live with some of the variables. And I think Chad is probably among that variable group too. I apologize. I should have hit the barrier rolls harder on that. You can live with that particular variable when you're trying to contain everything else.

And if you're successful crowding Shea, holding him, tamping down his offensive explosions at the expense of some of those threes, that's the kind of bargain in he could live with. I just don't know that they're going to be able to do either end of that all that successfully. Yeah, the shade matchup is, I guess Nemhard is going to draw the shade matchup. And Neesmith guards J-Dub. I guess J-Dub is bigger than him. But like, do we love any of this? Like, I don't think Nemhard is going to be some, you know, some stopgap measure. Like, I think it's going to have to be a team.

situation when it comes to guarding shade, which means all of those guys that Rob mentioned, they're going to have opportunities to shine on the world's biggest stage. So I like, I don't, I still don't think these guys are like who you want taking really tough shots. But that's the thing. When you got Shay, he's bending the defense to his will. And Caruso's not taking hard threes. He's taking wide open, finger to the wind.

Okay, yeah. Dribble once type of three. So, you know, that's pretty decent offense if you can get it. So I respect the dark arts that Nemhart has used to great effect over the course of his career. At this point, especially in the postseason, the whole pulling of the chair, like on the fly thing that Casey Cooper has been documenting for a real long time is just another level. I think that's going to work once, maybe twice. But I have a hard time thinking that he's the guy who's going to be able to slow down SGA. And to that point, he did get the assignment most often when they matched up during the regular season.

Only like about 12 minutes or so is what they logged on the tracking. And she did score 61.1 field goal percentage. And so the tracking is a little wonky with those. It's not always hyper accurate. But just seems like the Pacers, Rob, got a little lucky in who they saw as the playoffs went on. Because a lot of what they were matched up against was guard-driven offense. Brunson, Mitchell without Garland. And so I'm not suggesting that, like, they shouldn't have won those series because I think

they've been on this kind of magic carpet ride through the East. But I think it worked to their benefit. They didn't have to come up with the wing, like the sturdy three and D wing defenders in abundance. Because after Neesmith, it kind of, you're left searching for other guys. I mean, this is also guard-driven offense that the thunder are busting out. I don't think structurally. Jay is just a different beast. Like, big wing,

I don't know how we want to categorize him. Yeah, whatever bucket you want to put him in, he's a tough cover. And he's going to be a tough cover for any team. I think kind of what we're drilling down on is the Thunder are not the opponent that any team should want to see in the NBA finals or at any point in the playoffs. But the Pacers especially,

the Thunder are an antidote for a lot of their movement, for a lot of their style. They can hang with Indy, trying to play this fast, trying to push and advance the ball every opportunity. like this Thunder team can get back and they can punch back. And ultimately they have more one-on-one creative juice than the Pacers do. And ultimately, like, that matters in a series like this. In a series where whether it's going to be a track meet or whether it's going to be a slug fest,

like eventually you're going to have to like turn the balance of the game through some of those like random one-on-one possessions. And Pascal Seacom has been great at that for the Pacers, but he's not the MVP. And Shea has produced like an MVP in these playoffs. he has lived up to his billing. He's been every bit as good, I think, as we expected and hoped he would be coming into this postseason. There's just not a good answer for that. Like, it's really not that complex.

And yeah, Halliburton has shown, you know, he had to prove the very that he's not afraid to get to the cup. He was getting to the basket against the Knicks. He was finishing over guys against the Knicks. His floater game finally, like, you know, last year, very early on, last season, very early. early on. The floater was just unstoppable. Then it went away.

And then, you know, he came back from the Olympics and it was like, okay, what the hell is going on with this dude? But what he showed in the first two rounds is like, I'm deadly pull-up shooter. I will take it to the cup when I absolutely need to. I'm going

to find every single open guy, every single crease in your defense. And so, yeah, Halliburton is going to have to try his hand at being a one-on-one creator off the dribble. Like they don't have another choice. Like that's how the team is constructed. And again,

if Oklahoma City's going to be like, yeah, we're not playing you in convention with a conventional picking roll coverage. You're not just going to let Miles Turner catch the ball at the top of the key wide ass open and just take three after three. Then, yeah, it's going to be on it's going to be on Halley to make

it happen. How do we feel about Halliburton on the defense event? I feel like he's held up pretty well, especially considering his reputation. Do we think that was more a product of everything just going so well? Or do we think he will be able to stand up enough to where he won't be targeted? To me, I think there's lots of places for him in this series.

No one is like there's guys he can guard and there's ways to protect him. But it's not just that. Like early, like, you know, early on in Sacramento days, he was horrible on defense. Yes. He wasn't like, oh, he's kind of, no, he was terrible. And now, I think it's two things. I think when you're not Mr. heliocentric.

Guess what? You can, a lot of times, be better at defense when you really try to because you're not expending. So think about Jalen Brunson, the amount of energy that goes into every bucket that he gets. He doesn't get easy buckets. Everything he does is difficult. Creating the space, pounding the rock, the stop and start, the quick, like, it's, he's expending so much energy to create that offense.

By the time it's on defense, it's like, bro, it's not going to happen. Haliburton doesn't do that. He doesn't play that way. So he has enough in the tank to be respectable. Nobody's calling him Gary Payton and nothing like that. But he can be, he's shown that he can be more than respectable. And I think that's kind of enough. What about Gary Payton?

Yeah, second, Rob. Do you think he can get to that level? No one can. That's right. I do think that is a good point, though, as with honestly Brunson that we probably could have brought up in the Tibbs conversation. Like one way to improve New York's defense is by making Jalen Brunson do less offensively.

And then all of a sudden he's not targeted in the same way. Halliburton, I think, like, has acclimated himself really well defensively, both, like, standing up in matchups when he's targeted and also getting out of them where the Pacers will kind of like scram switch him out or will protect him with other matchups. Like, they've done a good job of that. And Halliburton has done in turn responded by being really active off the ball and coming up with some big steals, being disruptive in other ways.

Like, I think we get into this. where it's like if you're not a good defender, if you're a lesser on-ball defender, you need to be guarding the guy in the corner and just kind of staying out of the way. Ideally, you can find other ways to get in the mix that aren't like putting you in the same level, putting you at the same level of vulnerability,

but ultimately you're able to have a positive impact on defense. I think that's a line that Halliburton is walking pretty effectively in these playoffs. All right. On that note, let's pivot now to number three on our list. Isaiah, drop it. Damn. It's just banger after banger.

Let's go. Well, it's an appropriate segue to this one because we're talking playoff juice, baby. I don't know if you guys have heard this, but there are two small market teams in the NBA finals. Can you believe it? Catastrophe! What are we going to do with ourselves that there are two teams from middle America? I just want to throw this out there to you. And, Waz, we can start with you because you are the representative.

of the heartland, or at the very least you have your finger on the pulse. Does this matter to you at all that these are two small market teams? Does it help? Does it hurt? What do you think? It doesn't matter. It's just the NBA is the most nitpicked league in the history of leagues. It just is.

And so when this kind of outcome happens, like it literally only matters to ESPN, bro. Like, they're the ones that have to sell ads against these games. Like, it doesn't matter. The NBA itself has locked these jokers into 10 years of NBA seasons. Like, they're paid. Like, if anything, you know what, in seven years, I'll talk to you about this ratings, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, stuff again. At this point, it doesn't matter.

And I would submit to you, we need this in order to move forward. We need Shay to become a champion or Halley to have a bull. So that next playoff, when everybody's trying to rip their heads off and people are no longer, oh, isn't it so cute that they do the group interviews together? Like, when people are dissing that and taking snipes and taking hard files on these dudes and all. Like, we need this step in order to move on in order to make our next big, great, compelling stars. And so, sure, we're in a, you know, a sort of interregnum period. that's okay.

We're making tomorrow stars today. I'm roused. What an impassioned speech. Well, I actually have a stat that kind of piece into what Wazz is talking about. According to our friend Tom Haberstro, this is the first time since 2007, the finals will feature two teams who didn't play on Christmas Day. And he follows up to suggest even in 2007, there was only one game. game because of Monday night football.

And so I think Waz is absolutely right. It reminds me a lot of what you see in other businesses now, where the economics have changed in TV. It's because of streaming and on and on, where people are expecting old world paydays rather than accept the new environment and adjust accordingly. It almost felt like the NBA wants to keep pushing the cash cow of LeBron, staff, etc. We're great. And we love seeing them on marque events.

But to keep backloading with some of the best stars, including the Thunder, who were our number one season in the West last year and were going to be incredible this year and not having them seems like a big miss, Rob, because they were going to be on this stage. Why not get ahead of that and start to fill the, like, just the familiarity with the common fan? Yeah, it's just a bizarre decision to not have Sheigildegh, Just Alexander playing on Christmas. Like, why would you want that? And to me, the tradeoffs are not teams like the Warriors and the Lakers. Like, those are unique draws with unique jobs.

generational stars. I say this with all due respect to Kevin Durant. The Phoenix Suns are not bad. The Phoenix Suns playing on Christmas doesn't need to happen. The Philadelphia 76ers playing on Christmas, even if you thought they would be the best version and healthiest version of themselves when you booked it, does not need to happen.

Like, those, their stars we're celebrating. I'm not saying, like, don't put Joel and Bede on national television if he's healthy. But Shay Gilges Alexander has been not just like next up for a while, but a megastar hiding in plain sight, just like waiting to be advertised as such. And it really is a failure on the NBA's part to make the most of that.

I also think, you know, the small market stuff does not really matter. Ultimately, like it's a convenient storyline to talk about just like built versus bot or offense versus defense. It's like we just kind of grasp at these things that are like right in front of us depending on who the matchup is.

Here's a part of the series that I'm really looking forward to. The travel, I would imagine by mileage is probably less than it's ever been in the NBA finals. Like having two teams in the middle of the country is not so much a bad thing. Too bad you can't get a direct flight. Well, should they, we can't, but they sure they can. Should they put that on the poster?

Like logistics, the logistics bold. Your 2025 NBA finals. Look, we don't just put that Aaron Gordon clip where he was talking about the mileage on these guys. Like, I think it's a real thing for the competition of the series. It's not our job as the media to be Pollyanna about the, NBA, right? Like, the truth of the matter is, if the Knicks were in the finals, more people would watch it. It's just true. And that's fine, though, but that's like, that's okay. We can have a year. Like, now, if for 10 straight years, you know, it's Memphis and Indy and Milwaukee in the

finals, I'd be like, we should only be so lucky. NBA might want to figure some out. I think the bigger issue is that there isn't a contrast between the teams. Like if it was the surprising Pacers with this electric offense going up against the old guard, Steph Curry, there would be a natural counterbalance there where you could really sell that

because it just feeds into most of our favorite narratives throughout time. Unfortunately, the Thunder and the Pacers are on similar enough trajectories that they almost overlap. And confounding that is also the fact that everyone is kind of expecting the Thunder to stomp on the Pacers. If the games get better,

then I think you'll see people turn around. I think you see a lot of people just following suit of what we're saying, which is like, I think the Thunder are pretty big, uh, the big advantage here. And another thing, that's, that's why we need Cooper flag to turn into something.

We could get a Caitlin Clark Angel Reese situation going in the NBA. Yeah. He will fight some guys. There's no doubt. Must see TV. Genuine a question. Like, this is outside of my zone.

I do not watch any football. Does this conversation happen with the NFL? Like Kansas cities in the Super Bowl, does anyone give a shit? different though. Every market matters in football. Yes. It's just different. Like the machine the one day of week, the easy way to gamble

on it. Like every single game literally actually mattering for an entire season. Sure. It's just and again, it's it's America's favorite sport by far. Okay. And so it doesn't matter if it's Kansas City and Green Bay in the Super Bowl. People are like, I don't give a shit.

I'm still going to eat a bunch of wings, gamble the hell out of it, and you know what I mean? Show up the work hungover as hell on Monday. Yes, it's what they're going to do. It's always operated different than basketball in that regard. There's plenty of factors that feed into that. I mean, the NBA even leaned into it itself by selling LA versus Boston and all the things they had are associated with that for so many years

and then also selling stars over teams, yada, yada, yada. We've had this conversation a million times. But yeah, it is a hard fact, yes, that those markets probably won't have as much appeal to the casual fan. I note it, but don't ultimately care because that's not technically what we do unless the money filters into some sort of conversation we're having. And it affects the actual bylaws or the product in a way that's important for us to discuss. We're going to watch this no matter what, as we've said time and time again.

So like, if anything, the basketball seems pretty compelling, if only because like I don't know what we're going to get from the Pacers. If they do start to win games, and this will be probably one of the more entertaining finals we've seen in a while. I just want to say to the fans that are listening, because I don't want to be the scoldy. You guys should eat your vegetables and watch Shay Gilchus Alexander. Like, the truth of the matter is when I wasn't doing this for work and the Spurs played the goddamn pistons in the finals, I started tuning in like game six. I'm sorry, y'all. I did not. I was an NBA diehard. I was not keyed into that series whatsoever. And so like, I'm not going to sit here

Tis, you know, casuals or whatever who aren't locked into the paces and thunder. I think it's our, I think it's the league and its partner's jobs to communicate to the public that they should be interested in these kids. That much is definitely sure. I just think if you are one of these people who's getting ready to roll out your talking points,

make sure they're straight. Because if you're a Mamba mentality fan, I feel like you probably should like Shay a lot. Like his game is right there for the taking. If you're a, the modern, no one plays defense in the modern NBA kind of person, like the Thunder are a pretty compelling counterpoint for that. If you think everyone in the league plays the same way,

I don't know, man, no one plays like the Pacers. Like, there's a lot happening here that is exciting from a basketball perspective. Also, big picture, you hit a Justin, squarely, not our job, not our responsibility. I frankly do not care how many people watch the NBA finals. I will be there. And the NBA doesn't really care how many people watch the NBA finals because their TV deal is up for like 10 more years. Like, it's a literal decade before this is a problem.

Yes. is to foster the vibes. And on that note, Isaiah, hit us. There we go. Absolutely. All right. Taking a little bit of curveball here. Alternate timelines.

So I've asked you guys to at least ponder some of the biggest what-if scenarios that could have diverted the paths of the two teams that we are now expecting to see clash on the final stage. So I have two here. First and foremost, what if the sons don't match the offer sheet on DeAndre Aiton that the Pacers put in front of him.

Do we not get this triumphant moment for Miles Turner a decade into his Pacer's career finally being appreciated for all that he does? And on the flip side of this, what if Paul George isn't as enamored with Russell Westbrook's party aesthetics, the vibe that he threw for him on the night of free agency that got him to go back to OKC and then obviously Paul George? stays there, he gets traded to the Clippers, yada, yada, yada,

and we get Jay Gildger's Alexander winning MVPs in Oklahoma City. Do you guys see any other big ones? Are those, especially the DeAndre eight won, the big ones for you? That one is so funny. I like to think that Miles Turner rolling into these finals,

having his triumphant moment, gets to wear like the broken gears of the trade machine as if he's like in the Wonderdome, like a post-apocalyptic Miles Turner. He deserves that moment. everything he's been through. I, obviously, I think it's the Paul George

situation, because the Paul George trade got them Shay. And J-dub. And J-Dub, but even that was like the Clippers pick. Paul George ended up having COVID for the play-in, so he missed that playing game, and the Clippers end up losing, so that pick turns

into the 12th pick, like, again, J-du cool, and J-Dub is great. he's an all-star, all of that stuff. I think you can get an all-star who's played at the level of J-dub has this year on the open market. I don't think it's impossible. He might not be as young.

He won't be on a cost-controlled, you know, contract the way J-dubs is. Like, he's on a rookie deal playing the way that he's playing. Cool, but I think you could get his production some other way. There's just no other way to get an MVP candidate. Just on just, not only did you get an MVP, You got a, not even an MVP.

You got an MVP. He's going to be a perennial MVP candidate kind of guy. And you got seven million picks with him. That's, that's it. That's the OKC team. They had the one tank year, which is when they got Chet. And that's it. They tanked one year.

But people got real upset about it. They got real mad about that Thunder team for some reason. One year in the wilderness. They tanked one year. And yeah, But it all just comes down to getting Shea Gilgis Alexander, which, again, like, y'all could try to do your revisionist history. Nobody thought this would happen.

Okay? I said it on Zach Lowe. I was like, even think about Evan Mowgli after his rookie year. If the Clippers were in possession of that type of prospect, they would have sent back way less draft capital. People are like, this guy might be the next KG. blah blah blah like he was seen as like a tier one one a after his rookie year the same could be set for aunt edwards even or you know plenty of the guys after one year we're like hold on man it's something crazy with that yeah nobody thought this about she gildedis alexander at all like at all this was not in the ether and they do this paul george deal and they get that in return come on man that's that's the magic part motion right there.

I think not just getting Shea in that deal, but getting Shea, period, under any circumstances, I think it's the most important transaction in Thunder history. And maybe we can, like, depending on how you want to define Sonic's history versus Thunder history, drafting Kevin Durant in 2007, incredibly important decision. Or not drafting Greg Oden, right? Like, because Portland was like we want Greg Oden, you know what I mean? That decision was taken out of their hands. But getting Kevin Durant and everything to let up to it, franchising.

altering momentum changing move. Getting Shea, I think, is as important as that, despite the fact that Shea clearly has a long way to go before he has all of the accolades that Kevin Durant does. But that's part of the point, is like he's this good and still this young and could be a part of the Thunder for an incredibly long time. If he and the team choose for that to, or really, if he chooses for that to happen and the team justifies that happen.

I'd be remiss if I didn't know also that Paul George ultimately helped the Pacers get Tyree's Hallibor. because George begets it's a bonus in Hullipos. So a bonus begets, Tyre's Halliburton. And so, well, George, just six degrees of separation from so many titles and so many awesome teams. But unfortunately, he tends not to play for them. I do have one other what if for you, Justin, which is what if the Warriors had traded

it for Pascal Seacom? He was right there available to them. Like, they had every chance to get in on the Seacom Derby, just as the Pacers did. we've talked about Indies, like what Indy traded away to get Pascal in the first place. It's not an overwhelming haul, nothing that the Warriors could not have matched

if they had chosen to. Now, things have worked out pretty well with Jimmy Butler so far. I think that's a good fit. I'm not begrudging any of that. I'm looking at it more from Indy's perspective, which is if the Warriors or any other team jump at Pascal,

I think Indy is chasing other kinds of stars, other kinds of players, guys who frankly are not as perfect with their team as Pascal Seaccom, Like the precision of that fit has been so great that even someone like OG Ananovi, for example, was a really good player and may have also been available around that time to them if they had, you know, made the right kind of offer just doesn't fit with the Pacers in the same way. My what if I'm still, I'm still fascinated by the Nix trade.

The two teams that lost to these finals teams. And I'm like, would either of those teams would have been better suited to beat OKC or New York by not having made the deals that they made? like would Minnesota had been a better position to beat OKC this year? I think they would have considering how clogged

toilet their offense was against OKC. I think having that stretch ability you know, would have been key. Now would they have won the series? I don't think so. But like, you know, I do wonder, and the Knicks, same thing. I wonder if they would have been

just better suited. Just, you know, I don't even know what Randall would have brought to the Pacer series. I just, I'm, I could, because like, we don't even know if Minnesota's going to keep Randall, but the Knicks have kept Randall after going to the conference finals. Like, I'm still like, that's such a weird-ass trade still to me. Because of the parties involved, the, the sort of polarizing nature of both of those guys' games where it's like both of them just go from goat to hero, quarter to quarter, game the

gain possession of possession, and I do wonder if just matchup-wise, you know, both of their conference finals runs would have been better or worse. That's, you know, that's what I've still stuck on, that, that Randall deal. But would we have gotten the same Dante DiVincenzo Villanova commercial that we have seen 90 billion times over the past two months? No. So my life would be worse. I haven't seen a compelling answer as to why Dante DeVin-Denzo. Chenzo is wearing a visor in that commercial. Like you can't get this man a fitted. Is that against the rules?

Oh, Lord. He seems like a visor guy. I think he's hitting the links on his off time. I could see that actually. He has more of that. No, it was. It's a good one. I have to imagine McHale Bridges would still be mildly disappointing,

and they would probably still end up where they ended up. But you're right. Like, if they just didn't do those moves, things would have been a lot different going to the finals. Why don't we go now? to number five. Very Atari on that one. We're talking legacies.

Yeah. We're talking legacies. Number five, I asked you guys who this title would mean the most to. Now, this is a little kind of a difficult question because all of these guys might be on their second contract at this point.

So there's still a lot of NBA to play. But Rob, does anyone jump out to you as like, this title would mean so much to me right now and maybe in the future. I have three guys. And Justin, I would like to present them to you and you can kind of choose your own adventure. Tell me which door you want to go through.

Okay. Number one, Sam Presti. Number two, Pascal Seacom. Number three, Rick Carlisle. Which would you like to talk about? It's to Carlisle. Carlisle is my pick, by the way.

In terms of his perception, I think he goes into like all time. He's at the upper echelon of coaches ever in our league. If he somehow pulls this off too. The Carlyle argument and the Seacom argument are kind of similar in the sense that like when you win titles with two different franchises and totally different cores, whether you're a coach or a player, I think it just puts you into pretty rare error. And I think Carlisle especially, one of the most adaptive coaches we've ever seen.

this is the coach who overhauled his style to fit Jason Kidd with the Dallas Mavericks and won that team a title in doing so is a dramatically different coach now in terms of the pace of play for Indiana. Also changed his style for Luca Donchich. Also changed his style for the post malice at the palace pacers and help these scrappy upstart teams that didn't have their best players overachieve relative to what they could throw out there. He's just proven to be one of those guys who can get the absolute most out of anyone he coaches

and you can't point to a lot of singular things to say, these are the ways that Rick Carlisle teams always play, except to say that they are immaculately well-prepared. And so if you have that kind of overall, well-rounded resume and you're winning multiple titles with multiple franchises, you're an all-timer. Like, he's already a Hall of Famer, but that is, again, a different class of coach.

You want a title with the Celtics as a player, right? Yes, that's true. So the resume is long, and you're right. It's exhaustive in just the different. approaches he's taking to different teams. And honestly, if he wins a title with this Pacer's team, considering the odds people are stacking against them, it would probably be worth a hall of name spot in its own right.

So if he wins a championship, it's basically like Phil Jackson, Popovich, Red Arabac, and then it's like the tear that he's going to go into. That's crazy to think. You know what I mean? About Rick Carlisle, but like if he manages to pull this off, man he's gonna that's that's where we're gonna place him why don't i do one of mind and maybe we can circle back to those other ones rob mentioned uh i have shea gildricks alexander down here and now

she has a very long career ahead of him we hope knock on wood for no injuries to befall him uh i do think though he's an interesting figure and we're talking about like the next superstar in the NBA face of the league whatever you want to call it in part because he kind of checks a lot of the you would want, especially as we're going for the template that has typically been successful in this regard, Kobe, even MJ, all those type of guys. Like we look for a certain type of player. Shea being a high-scoring wing on a, like, a highly competitive team, is that? I would say as a personality, he's a little bit unknowable.

I think he's a very congenial kid, like the, uh, was mentioned, like the post-game stuff. Like, it seems like everyone gets along and that's nice. and the fashion stuff seems like be the thing that tends to pop with him but I don't really know much about him and so I don't really see him as like a personality in this league but I do think the one thing we undersell

in the Jordan template is someone who just wins and wins constantly that at a certain point you are forced to give like to take note of this person and he has to be at a certain level when selling the league and I think if he gets a title now start stacking multiple titles

obviously the Jordan Bar is probably never going to be accomplished again, considering how many he has in such a short period of time. But like, fucking like three and four years sort of like success, then Shea has to be the guy in the NBA. And I think it probably starts now with his first opportunity. Yeah, it just you don't see 26 year old superstars win it all very often. You know, I think there have been a couple cases in recent history. Dwayne Wade, obviously, with the 06 heat was like a force of nays.

and even significantly younger than Shea. But since then, it's been a lot of older heads. It's been a lot of veteran guys who have been around, who have had the losses, who have taken their lumps. But Fulner has taken some of those lumps, but they've sort of jumped the process in terms of accelerating to become so good, so quickly, so dominant defensively, and Shea lifting everything up on the other side of the ball

with how much he's able to create. I agree with you. Like winning is ultimately the best personality to have for someone like Shea, who is, he will talk, and I do appreciate it. As far as the post game interviews go, as far as like any thunder group setting, whenever Chet says something kind of cryptic

or J-Dub sorts of trails off so he can add the next towel to Nick Allo or whatever, like, Shea will double back and like reiterate the company line. Like he is a good leader in communication publicly, internally and externally. If you just come in and win and win and win and win, I think your story writes itself in a lot of, of ways and your appeal as a player where you're just a singular style of creator on the court

who no one can stop and every time you're a tough out in the playoffs that that's a mythological kind of creation and that's when you get into a territory where it's not like we're looking for something to like about this guy it's like you're just kind of an undeniable NBA presence and I think the other thing that I'm tracking now in how the league is changing and LeBron has four rings and Steph has four rings and Kobe has five rings and Shaq has four rings and like I don't think Janice or Yokic

or Aunt Edwards or Jason's I don't think they're going to get the four rings like I don't think any of these young guys are going to win be able to string that many championships together specifically not as MVP like finals MVP level of guys so like

you know if you're able to even get get one or two in this climate is going to be very challenging because of the freaking way that Adam Silver and his boys in the ownership group have made roster construction such a difficult like keeping great players on one team so hard like I do wonder if Shay can you know and you know we know how stacked the thunder on how well position they are to do well in future post seasons and all of that like if he can be the guy that actually stack some rings together because like, like I said, like,

I don't like, like, we look at our bringer NBA top 100 or whatever. Like, go through the list of the top. Go through the list of the top one through 10, 12 or whatever. How many of those dudes do you think is going to end up with four rings when they retire?

You know? So that's what I think is cool about what Shea's doing right now. I love what you're saying was. It also concerns me as somebody who lives in the spaces that we do who participate in the NBA discourse, are we just resigned to no one is ever going to live up to, not just Jordan,

but LeBron, but steadily, are these guys never going to be allowed to be great on their own terms because they don't win four rings? I think they will, but like, objectively speaking, these guys aren't as good as Mike and LeBron in their prime. Well, no, no one is near that level. Like, let's be real

about all of that. It's not close. Oh, God. The next layer of hell is what you're saying is we're going to Yeah, yeah. Like, these guys won't stand up to LeBron who didn't stand up to Jordan. Yeah. Yes. Oh, God.

I don't think I can do that. I got to go garden full time. Yeah. But I'm telling you, like, you know, people are already being like, well, Yolch only has one ring. He's got one ring. What's so good about his resume? Why is he an all-time where he's got one ring?

I'm like, guys, this is insane. I will say, though, the recipe to popularity these. days is to reboot IP from the past. And the way to do that in the NBA is to turn Shay Gilchrist Alexander into the ultimate winner because that's as close as we'll get to like any sort of like four quadrant popularity for any of these guys. So I guess we got a roof of Shay to win six rings?

I guess so. Go undefeated in the finals. It could be a lot worse, man. Rob, do you want to do one of your other two? Yeah, let's talk about St. Presti for a second. Like, again, incredibly long tenured executive who has had great teams before who has a team get to the finals before

what year did he get hired I want to say because he was already the GM in Seattle yeah 2004 2007 is the Durant Drive 2007 he was 28 years old I believe when he got the job Jesus Christ

wow he got wait he got hired to be the GM at 28 yes this is this Presti stuff is making a lot of sense, y'all. We got the blog at 28, so. We did.

Same shit. Blog and pod, you know, everyone's journey is a little bit different. Sam Presti's journey has been very impressive. One of the best and most accomplished executives in the league otherwise has one, has seen teams win everything there is to win but this. And so it would be an incredible crowning achievement. And I think, as a counterpoint to that, if he's an executive who has that kind of tenure, who has great teams, but the team never wins at all, that's the kind of thing.

that's the kind of thing that sort of hangs over you. Not to disparage any of the teams that he's built, any of what it took to get to this point. But like, the winning separates you. It distinguishes you. It's why anyone is doing this. And I think as an executive specifically, you just like are living and dying with this shit

in a totally different way because it's kind of out of your hands. Like you have put the pieces in play. You are watching to see what they do. And now either those decisions are going to be validated with the title or they're not. Yeah, Presti is interesting because to me, to my mind he's already a made guy I think most people accept that he's the best GM in the

NBA I like I think he's just he's just a made guy in that way um and I don't want to get controversial but I just think like the next step for sure even after he wins an okay C people are going to be like

do it where it matters like go to an actual big market put your big boy pants on where you don't get to be anonymous and that kind of shit. And yeah, that's what I think the next step would be. When in the regular season. When in the playoffs.

Winning the finals. Winning the draft. Winning free agency, then win in a different market. Winning the city that matters. God damn right. One would argue it's even more difficult to win in Oklahoma City than in a bigger market. But, you know, that's a conversation for a different day, I guess. And tomato tomato.

That doesn't even apply, but I still use it. Look, the thing is like with Theo Epstein. where he's like, yo, I did it in Boston. Watch what I do for the cursed-ass Cubs and then won a World Series there. That's what I'm saying. The next step would be like, all right, we get it. You know, you did your thing in O KC.

You became a made man, untouchable, unfireable, all of that stuff. You want a championship or two. Built a beautiful situation over there. Now, you know what I mean? Go do a serious job. It's almost like when coaches have to leave college and prove themselves in the pros, you feel what I? I do not feel that way.

No, the funger are not college and the Nicks or whatever are not the pros. Competitive people do when they win too much, do seek out the new challenge. So I think it could happen. That's what I'm saying. Like the new challenge or whatever, like, yo, like if I do this, this will really take my profile to an entire another level. I think the new challenge at the point, whenever Sam Presti is ready for a new challenge is like lean into his jazz drumming. career or something like that. You're going to go on tour with James Dolan.

Okay. I wouldn't recommend that for literally anyone. Match made in heaven right there. I think we just figured out the next. Speaking of things you need $100 million for paying the drummer for JD in the straight shot. Like you really got to make it worth that person's time. We don't have JD, but we do have J.R.

So hit it. Zay, sleep at the wheel. Oh, last one. All right, predictions, fellas. Who you got? Was, you want to go first? OK, C and six. I know a lot of people think that Paces are going to get smoked or smacked.

I really do think they're going to play. There will be games where they play well and probably even pull them out. But I don't think they're going to win this series. I think they're going to be, again, they're going to play better than people expect them to. They've been underrated, disrespected the entire. playoffs, they've outplayed expectations the whole time through, and I think they will outplay expectations again in this series, but ultimately lose. I agree with a lot of that. I think the only differentiating point for me is I think Thunder

will win in five. I think it'll be five pretty competitive games. I think it'll be feisty. I think the Pacers will play well. I just think, and forgive me for repeating myself from our previous predictions, the most dominant force in these playoffs is the Thunder defense. No one has proven able to crack it. Even Nicola Yokic struggled mightily trying to break down this exact thing. For all of the respect I have for the Pacers and the way that they operate and what they've created and Tyrese Halliborne and the whole deal, I'm on the record substantially. Please, I just don't think they have this much in them. Because I don't know who does at this point. You hear that Indiana? Rob Mahoney's answer is no, sir. No, sir. Wow. No sirs. How would we feel

if the Thunder busted out that that is a shirt. If you had a no-sir playoff, I would love it. I want that type of smoke. I even enjoyed when Shea stepped on the ant or whatever for his Converse commercial after the series. You ain't see that? No.

Converse put out a little ad weird. There's an aunt and it's like, oh, you're quiet now, and whatever. And they made fun of Aunt Edwards. I love that. I'm looking forward to the next time these two play again. Unfortunately, nobody saw it. So, yeah, I agree with Rob.

I really wish that picking a team in five games wasn't tantamount to calling the opponent, like just a total piece of shit. Like, if it's five, it just feels like the work equivalent to like, okay, no, like, punctuation. If you don't put an exclamation on everything, it's just like, what's wrong with you? That is what it feels like to pick a team in five.

First of all, the number of times that Justin Barrier will send you an okay, no punctuation, That's not true. I puncture it the hell out of those replies, my friend. I know how to work in an office environment. There's anything I know. It is how to communicate on Slack to hide my actual feelings about people. Let me tell you, you're not hiding your feelings as much as you think you are.

I think I'm doing just fine, Rob Mahoney. I also have OKC in five, but in parentheses, I'm sorry I do respect the Pacers. For all the reasons that we've talked about. I got a lot of respect for them. We love to respect the basers. It's one of our favorite things. If OKC does indeed win, they would become the fifth team in NBA history, fourth since the merger, 68 wins plus a title.

Can you guys name technically the two other teams because it was one team doing it twice and then a third team? So 68 wins and a title since the NBA-ABA merger. Yep. The Bulls. Bulls were two of them. The Warriors won 68 games for the first 2014-15. Just the 77?

They won 67? They lost when they broke the record. So they don't count. But the year before, they won 67 games, not 68. I think they won 67 games. Okay. So in the same ballpark. Yeah.

Was it the Lakers? The first 69 and 13 team. Sure was. Didn't the Sixers win 68 games one time? I was about to say. Way before the merger. Okay. Oh, okay.

But so we're still missing one other team. Did not win 68 games. I believe there was a Celtics team that won 68 games that lost. Oh, wow. Yes. So we're talking MJ Bowles twice, Will and Jerry West Lakers. If you want to include the Sixers in there pre-merger, Sixers did it as well. and your young,

upstart, nerd-ass Oklahoma City Thunder. Let's go. Hypothetically. Asterisk, possibly, maybe if they would. Larry O'Brien making a trip to the prairie, huh?

You heard it first. Will Waz make a trip to the prairie? No, it's not happening for you? I talked about time and a half, huh? Wow. Wow. Uncalled for.

But maybe when we do a world podcast tour we can take a look at the title if it makes it there. Yeah. We'll figure it out. That's it for us. We'll be back after game one on Thursday night. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We will talk to you.