The Ringer NBA Show - NBA One-Month Survey: Best Player, Biggest Surprise, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

One month into the NBA season, Justin, Wos, and Rob offer their snapshot as to who’s the best player, the best team, and the biggest surprise in the league so far (02:23). They also discuss the biggest disappointment, a preseason take they would already take back, and whose stock they’re buying low on (35:16). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Wosny Lambre, and Rob Mahoney Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call me sentimental, but to me, the most joyful moment in sports is the soccer goal. And when that goal happens at the World Cup, well, it's pretty good. I'm Brian Phillips. With the 22 men's World Cup approaching, I'm making a podcast called 22 goals on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's about 22 of the most fire emoji goals in the history of the tournament. We're going to have so much fun. And welcome to the Heats House, aka a group.

Chat. I am Justin Verrier. Joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney and the crypto bro himself, Big Waz. How are you handling the downturn in FTCX, my friend? Yeah, man, I had all of this spot for this good old sweet Spotify money in FTCX. And so I'm down bad, y'all. No, just kidding. I haven't, I don't get involved in that crypto stuff. But apparently, hey, man, Elon Musk, they got a DM from them, folks,

and literally broke down in the DM why it was a sham. He's like, not interested. This is so clearly a sham, and here's how and why. So, yeah, I guess I'll see Elon Musk for getting one thing, right. How does he have this much time? I don't know. Like, I can barely make time for this podcast amidst all of the various slack messages I have going on,

but this guy just stays getting involved in many things he shouldn't. This is already like a thousand percent too much Elon Musk contest. on this podcast. It's true. Let's shuffle along. Yeah, I guess we'll see what happens to 20% of the NBA arenas going forward here because the crypto industry does not seem to be long for this world. But this podcast, soldiers on, my friends, because we do not have a sponsorship.

Thankfully, question mark. We today are going to take a snapshot of the league after one month of NBA basketball. I should mention we're recording this, first of all, on Tuesday afternoon. not Wednesday morning as we typically do. So if anything happens in the Tuesday night games, that is why. But today we're going to run through some of the best of a month of basketball, best player, best team, et cetera, et cetera. First, a little bit of news at the top.

We have an email address and we would invite our large impassioned group of listenership to email us. I think one, we would like to hear from you guys because I think there are a lot of of you out there and I have actively deterred personally most people from communicating with me in any form, particularly on Twitter, particularly in my DMs, but I would like to invite everyone to this safe space that we have carved out to do so. And two, we sold an ad against it and so we now have to do it. We are contractually obligated to do it. But I think this could be good. The email address is Suggestionbox gc at gmail.com.

We're going to call the segment suggestion box, hence the name. Suggestion box, g.c at gmail.com. Are we eligible for this too? Like if I just want to know something about your personal life, Justin, can I just drop it in the suggestion box and you're obligated to answer it? Yeah, totally. Okay. This could just be getting to know each other just a little bit more deeply.

It could be like a therapy session. I like that. Okay. Okay. So at some point down the road, when we get some good responses, we'll break out that segment. Maybe not next week. maybe not the week after, but we'll get around to it.

But on today's agenda, the one-month survey, let's start right from the top here from Best Player. So, first of all, we should mention that everybody in the NBA is now scoring 30 points per game, which makes this exercise particularly difficult. And specifically, it's eight players who are in the 30 range. We have Luca Donch, it's Shoehl and B., Jason Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, Shea, Gildreder, Alexander, Steph Curry, Janus, and KD.

So the NBA is kind of running amok here with big time scorers. But Rob, who is at the top of your list for best players so far? Is it one of these guys or is someone outside the oodles of points that are being scored from some of these guys? I mean, let me flip it on you two. Like, can one of you explain to me how it's not Janus? You know what? How is that not the open and shut answer?

I love that you said that because on our weekend show, I'm not going to lie, I stole a JV idea. that I very snarkingly poohed when he presented it to me. That's interesting. That's the suggestion box in action right there. And me and Michael Pina discussed our MVP's, and his was Lucas. And mine was Janice. And it's because Janice is doing all the stuff on offense, the heavy lifting,

but he's also probably one of the two or three best defensive players in the NBA as well. And so once you, like, factor in all the first. of that production, I don't see how it's not him, right? And, you know, I did get a little concerned, Charlie, about Luca's usage, and it felt very similar to Westbrook in 2017. And I'm not doing that mistake again. But the problem with that argument is it's a little hypocritical because Janus essentially has the same exact usage, right?

Actually, I think he's beating him. No, no, no, he's about 0.2 less in usage, right? But Janus is doing this without Chris Middleton. We know what this team looks like when they're whole. It's not just Janus being spammed all day. Whereas what's happening in Dallas feels like this is just what they're going to do and who they're going to be. And I don't think it's sustainable.

And I don't think healthy NBA offenses and teams can run that way. Yeah, Lucas get in the popcorn. He's like applying the tape to ankles. He's doing literally everything. I'll be honest here. I automatically disqualified Janice and Joelle and Bede because they've missed games and because we are dealing with such a small sample to begin with

and we are splitting the tiniest of tiny hairs. I had to find a way to really set some parameters here. And three games is like what, like almost 15% thereabouts of the bucks games? No, you sound like you're trying to stop the steel right now. We can't do drop box balance anymore because Janice is winning. Okay, but I want to know who's your pick if that's the case. So I had two down here.

I had Luca ultimately for the reasons you kind of pooed there was. He is doing literally everything, 34.3 points a game, leading the NBA, 8.7 rebounds, 8.1 assists. And also he's doing stuff on the defensive end. Like he's giving a lot of activities, giving a lot of. which hasn't happened before and it's a big reason why the Mavs are 10th in defensive rating. And I also had Jason Tatum down here.

A little bit tougher case to make, but he's been the best offensive player in the NBA based on some measures because when he's on the court, the Boston Celtics are scoring 121.1 points per 100 possessions, which is quite incredible. Probably not giving as much

on the defense event as you would think and you would think going into it as I did that like the case for Tatum was he's a two-way guy, but the Celtics are actually worse with him on the court defensively. But those are the two that I narrowed down to. Yeah, Boston, too overall, like has not really been up to snuff defensively. And that's where the buck separate is Janus is everything you need him to be offensively, as well as outlined,

not dominating the ball in terms of every possession, every second of it, which I think to Lucas credit, like he's stretching his talents and his skills as far as they can possibly go. But what Janus is doing is sustainable, it's healthy for overall team dynamics. And it's a lead on both sides of the ball. Like, he's doing everything that they possibly could ask him to do in this moment, including giving it up sometimes and letting Drew Holiday and even Javon Carter

and some of these role players who are stepping into bigger spots for the Bucks right now, highlighting Brooke Lopez even more this season than they have in a long time offensively, letting Bobby Portis sing. It's just working in a way for the Bucks. They're like, I know we want to talk about the best team conversation too as a part of this. Like, Yannis to me is the best player and him plus a defense that's that elite. I think ties the bucks into being being the best team to this point.

Yeah, and what Luke is doing is crazy, right? And it's unguardedable. If Dallas spreads you out with five shooters or even, you know, just a great pick and roll guy,

that's poison for you. You're either going to single cover, Luca, you're going to leave a really good shooter wide open, which is just, you know, that's death for any, any, any defense. However, and I know this might not, this probably maybe shouldn't be part of the conversation, but I don't think you can do that sustainably and win big. And so, and I don't, like, I feel like I'm disparaging this guy for being incredible by saying it feels a little

gimmicky. It just feels regular seasony, is what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, you can get away with this in the regular season and you can put together, um, incredible. stats, but this doesn't feel like real winning elite NBA basketball style to me. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Luca approved me wrong. And, you know, in a given series, he's a matchup nightmare for whoever he goes up against and he'll just beat everybody. I just don't know that he can carry that burden long term.

So that's why the style, I feel like I got a document for that because I don't think it's real. Yeah. Well, stop me if you've heard this before, but they do have an award for playoff success. it's called the NBA championship. Unfortunately, this is the one-month survey, and I think over the course of the month, Luca has been a dominant force. I think one caveat I would put to Janus,

and I'll just like, I'll reveal, I have the bucks as the best team, but I don't have Janus in the mix for best player. I kind of split it that way. Ridiculous. Well, also I want to point out here, like to your point about there being a separate award for the playoffs, what you asked us to do here was not pick the MVP.

Pete. You asked us who the best player is. Who's the best player? Just because you guys complained about it last week. This is how we win, Justin. This is how we win. Jesus Christ. What I was going to say before was the Bucks are 24th on offense. And now they've had a lot of injuries. Milton hasn't played all season, both Holiday and Janus had both missed three games. But like, I don't know. Like if they are winning on defense, do we have to start giving credit to a Brooke Lopez? Some of the other guys they've worked in there. Obviously, Janus is a big part of that. He would probably be,

be three or so on my ballot if I did want to include him in Embed. But, you know, I think based on the results, which is also how I do all of these awards, what we have seen and statistics that they have provided, not projecting out, or like all this other stuff, Luca would be my guy, Bucks would be my best team. I'm right there with you, obviously, on the Bucks is the best team. Wazz, who's your pick for that? Man, just a little ringer homerism. I think the Celtics are the best team. In my opinion. It's not just the record. It's that I think they have, like, I'm watching the OKC game. I actually watched that this morning where they come back and beat OKC at home. And that's a loss for the old Boston

team. OKC is so hot from three and they're giving the effort and the Celtics are kind of just like, uh, whatever, but they just figured out a way to pull it out. And I do think they have a certain playoff proven championship level medal together that they've developed. I think the Bucks developed it last year, you know, after having won the championship. And we saw that and how they were able to give Boston everything that they can handle while being severely shorthanded. I think Boston is that type of team now. So it's not just the talent.

It's like on the nights where you're not supposed to pull this thing out against OKC team that I'm going to bring up later, that's playing above their heads right now. Like, to me, that's an indication of a team that's got something special. And, you know, their freaking Tyrannosaurus Rex hasn't even played yet in Robert Williams. And I know that that's like an open question as to what his injury status is even going to be when he comes back. But to me, Boston, with the collective medal that they've earned together, plus they're the talent. And yeah, just coming out the gates with all the

crazy shit they had to deal with in the offseason. I'm Boston right now. They feel pretty deep right now, too. Like, to your point, Waz, about them coming back in some of these games or holding up in some of these games. They're getting just, like, really good minutes from Derek White on some nights. They've gotten really good stuff from Malcolm Brogden and spots.

Let me tell you something, Rob. There were, like, three possessions in the fourth quarter where he just picked this bullshit. shit, Joss Giddy, spin, move. I was in heaven. Heaven, I tell you. Can we also shout out Sam Houser, who has like a scary good on-off right now?

Like, there's just something going on in terms of like the value he's giving as a shooter that's working. We'll see if that holds up. But when you have all of that stuff clicking and you're getting the good version of Marcus Smart, and you're getting high effort, really focused Jalen Brown, and Jason Tatum is one of the best players in the world. Pretty good formula, as it turns out.

So the Celtics, by record, are the best team and then the NBA, as we're recording this, they're 11 and 3. And they're doing so mostly on offense, best offense in the NBA with a bullet. I mentioned the Tatum stats, but just overall, this feels like a team that has identity shifts. We talked about this a couple episodes ago, but without Robert Williams there, they're a little less sludgy and they're a little less imposing at the rim while they cycle through guys like Noah Vonle and Hauser and the front court. But this is starting to look a little bit more like a Jason Tatum team than it never did before.

and like they're going as far as he's bringing them. They're a little bit more flexible, a little worse defensively, which is surprising, as I mentioned. But I think there's like the ability to identity shifts so quickly and embrace Tatum is the focal point of what they're doing has been really impressive there.

And I think they do have gears on defense to your point. They're doing it on offense right now, but they have an ability to turn it up when they need to. And yeah, man, I used to call Jason Tatum, John the Baptist. I think he's creeping up into that Messiah category, y'all.

Just some fresh sacrilege out here on group chat. Let's do it. The other team I just want to mention briefly to get your guys' thoughts here, the Cavs, based on some of the advanced metrics, are the best team by net rating, point differential. How do we feel about them? Because they started off strong. I think they've lost, what, four in the

row at the time of this recording. Rob, are you sold on the earlier version of the Cavs, or are you a little bit more worried about some of the recent results? Oh, no, I'm really sold on the cabs. And a lot of those recent results, too, there's little asterisk here and there. And they're just kind of like regular season results. You know, Donovan Mitchell's out for this game.

They're missing guys for that game. Just kind of a tough schedule loss in this other one. So there's some of that stuff is happening for them right now. Long road trip. Yeah. Exactly. So like I chalk those recent losses up more to those kinds of things, especially when you look at like the fundamental data,

a lot of the material evidence to date is that Donovan Mitchell has been one of the great surprises this season has just been a clear standout league-wide. And then defensively, we know who this team is. And the fact that they have all those things already in place, and now they're working Darius Garland into that mix. Who looks great, by the way. Looks great. Looks like one of the great point guards in the NBA at this point in the season.

He's one of my three favorite guys to watch right now. Just he's so much fun with the creativity and just he can fill it up from wherever on the floor, which is cool. And I watched that Golden State Warriors game. And I was like, look, man, the Warriors pulled it out on some warrior shit, on some like, we're like five, four-time champions and we've been doing this for a while together. And we know how to pull these kind of games out. But on talent, I think the Cavs are just as talented as them.

I'm not even trying to be like hot takey or anything crazy like that. I'm just like, yo, they're starting five against, their best five against Golden State's best five is neck and neck, which is crazy because I didn't think that would be the case this year. I'm really, really impressed by what the Cavs have. They're young, so they have a lot to figure out. You know, in high-leverage possessions against the best teams, you have to have a laser focus. And young guys tend to not have that all the time

because they just haven't been there. They don't even know what the hell to focus on half the time. But, man, on talent, they are scary, dude. yeah if anyone wants to jump ship off the bandwagon after a couple of losses please do I mean we'll take the leg room we'll take the elbow room I'm cool on here

you're an economy class just living it up I'm loving it um since we're already talking about surprises here positive ones let's jump to number three on our list the biggest positive surprise player or team is there any other answer than the Utah Jazz

here? I don't think so but we can probably kind of keep it shuffling just because we've already talked about the jazz a lot. I feel like we've sung their praises. Sure. Let's just briefly mention 10 and 5 third in the West. Fifth best net rating. Fourth best offense in the NBA

with Lori Mark and Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, and the gang just doing it. Just absolutely incredible. They've even lost a little bit lately. Walker Kessler's like a real guy. He's freaking huge and like plays his ass off on defense. Yeah, that's

really cool. As far as teams that I think is surprising for me it's indie. Shouts to Ben Mathron fellow great Haitian that he is, neck and neck for rookie of the year. Halliburton is, I think, I

think I liked Halliburton, but I'm becoming like, oh, oh, I'm becoming a fan of this dude this season, right? He's a guy. He's a guy. He's a guy. Like, he is, he is advanced at a lot of things at his position,

and that's really shown in the style of play, man. These dudes are running it down people's throats and it's just incredible to see, Miles Turner you know, in a year where he's literally making eyes

at other teams, he's killing. And I think Turner Hive has been vindicated this year so far. And so indie for me is another one of those teams that like, I'm like, holy shit.

I thought it was going to be a bunch of young guys and they were going to trying to figure it out and they're still in rebuild mode, but they're good as hell. Did we mention on the pod Miles Turner's interview with Woj where he openly talked about trading himself to the Lakers? Do we talk about this? He's not just making eyes. He's making literal overtures for them to come and trade for him. It was unreal.

He was like, I don't know. I mean, you got a guy who can do X, Y, Z, blah, blah, you know, who's to say? That's the second or third best. player on a team that is dramatically better than the Lakers right now. To the Pacers credit, the reason in this conversation, 6 and 6 to date, lottery level

talent with a break-even record and performance, right now they have a better net rating than the Warriors, the clippers, the Timberwolves, the Bulls, the Lakers, your Indiana Pacers, ladies and gentlemen. Wow. Do you have any other teams you guys want to talk about

or can we flip the players? I think it's them. I think it's mostly the Pacers, but I do want to zero in a little more on Ben Mathrin because he's been making some moves where I saw when they were playing against the Raptors the other day, he has the ball on the perimeter and just leaves Scotty Barnes in the dust.

Like he just has a lot of slink and shake to his game where he can get by guys. And I think what's most important, he's really fluid as a score and as a shooter, but he isn't one of these guys who can only shoot when he gets a couple dribbles. And he isn't one of these guys who can only score. Catch and shoot, right. Exactly.

He's in that sweet middle ground where he can score from anywhere, pretty much any way. And that's why he's perfect for a team like this that doesn't really have a lot of the infrastructure yet. Like there's a reason we're talking about him and Tyrese Halliburton and very little else. Right? Like a lot of these other pieces, yes, exactly.

The fluidity of the pull-up is crazy. Sorry to interrupt. And he's getting to the line. That's why I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. He's a rookie and he's already getting to the line, quote-unquote, he's like, you know, When you're not the size of Paul George and Kauai and LeBron and you're a wing where people often get scared about your efficiency. It's like, are they going to be able to score in the trees?

Are they going to create enough space to get quality shots off? Are they going to force people to follow them? Right? Like when you, you know, you might just end up being, you know, just a microwave kind of guy when you don't have that elite size on the wing. But this dude, without the elite size is as a rookie figuring out how to. get to the line. Again, the pull-up is so fluid and sweet. Oh, Ben Matherin. My goodness. Yeah, I encourage anybody who likes reading words to go check out, Zach Crams right up on Mathrin on the ringer from a couple days ago. What he said was, like in baseball, if you show a

tool, that tool is going to carry throughout your career. And Matherin showed just in the first couple weeks with how well he was scoring and how well he was shooting that that's going to be something in his back for a while. But as long as we're talking about rookies, which you you probably talk about Paul Ben Chiro, the guy who like Ben Carroll. God damn it. I knew it. I said it to myself before I went into that. But anyway, 23 and a half points per game, 8.3 free throws a game already. Cram also sent me a list of guys who have done that in the three point era, the free throws attempted part. He is bested only by rookie David Robinson,

Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Blake Griffin. And listen, I know LeBron comps are like sacrilegious at this point, becoming almost like a Jordan thing. When you do it, it just like opens up Pandora's box of snark and caveats and et cetera, et cetera.

But just the body control and the ball handling skills and like the vision of this guy at his size, 610, is unbelievable. And I can't really think about, and like it reminds me a lot of just LeBron's ability to do this nuanced

stuff at like just this this huge size. I mean, he feels so much bigger than young LeBron did. Like he feels like a 50 year player, right? Like he feels like a veteran who has come in, who knows how to read, who knows how to create advantages. And it's just like all there for him. And these are always the great pleasant surprises for guys like us who are not like neck deep in draft analysis, where before the season, I think the question with the magic

was, can this be the driver of a potentially great offense down the line? and we're seeing every indicator we would possibly want that he has the skill set to do that stuff. Listen, I'm no Kyle Mann or KOC. Go check out the new podcast about NBA draft prospects, by the way. However, when I watched Paolo play for the first time at Duke, I'm like, okay, what am I missing with this kid? He's freaking huge.

He's got all the skills, and he has incredible feel. Like, what is this kid supposed to not be able to do at the next level when, again, sometimes when you don't have that size, you can have all the skill you want. The physicality of the NBA is going to create problems for you, right? And this guy, he just

walks in day one and has no issue, no issues with the physicality. You know, and then, you know, there's certain guys, the dude in Houston, who don't have a league field. You know, and this guy has... Which one? Right, right. Fair. That is,

that is fair. this guy has all three of those things in spades and so yeah he's he's looked really impressive I think the only surprise still Ben Caro is that the magic hid their choice for so long that we just didn't automatically assume that this guy was this world being was gonna come in and you don't gotta hide your choice

for number one like I know I know but he seems like so much more of a surprise because of that and like now it seems clear as day that he always should have gone number one and it shouldn't have been in discussion, but like flirting with Jabari Smith or using him as a decoy, whatever they did,

just made it seem like Bencaro. Bencaro was not as good as he has been. I'm proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. I've been working on it, clearly. You're my biggest surprise this season, Justin. The fact that you're now catching on finally

to follow Bencaro's name. Thank you. Didn't even file away in the suggestion box. You just give it to me outright. Can I file some honorable mentions for surprises this season? Yeah, yeah, I got one honorable mention as well. Okay, I've got two.

You guys hit yours first, because I got a laundry list over here. Okay, my honorable mention is Shea Gilchish Alexander, who is just straight up and down an all-N-B-A player now. Like, this is huge. It's not even a question.

He's going to toe-to-toe with Tatum and Brown. Like, it's nothing last night. And he's been doing this all-season long, and nobody can keep him out the paint. His jump shot, I remember, going to all of those clipper games, man. And Sam Cassell would be working with him every single day pregame on that jump shot

and getting it off in different ways. And it wasn't that clean back then where he's gotten his jump shot to be since those early Clipper days. And just, you know, online people talk about a bag. This guy has a bag. Like, he has an incredible bag. And so, yeah, Shay straight up just being

bona fide all-MBA player I don't know that I saw that coming this year. Maybe I should have and because I've been, traditionally I've been a little bit lower than the consensus on Shea because I just thought there was way too much hand-wringing when they got Paul George in there. I'm like, come on, fams, Paul George. But like,

he's incredible this year. So yeah, Shea's definitely big surprise, my honorable mention. Yeah, I had him on my list as well. It seems like the Thunder's mission this season was to convince Shea that he shouldn't ask for trade because they are feeding him every possible opportunity to score points and to be a guy. He's currently averaging 21 and a half field goals attempted a game that's six in the NBA, and he's one of those guys in the 30 range now scoring wise.

And he's just responded just by being that type of guy. And I think that's important here. Like you kind of need to know if you're the thunder, like who are your pillars of the franchise going forward? And it's one thing to give someone the opportunity. and they just put up empty calorie points. But I think Shea has done a good job of blending the player that was talking about with the clipper, that kind of cerebral, he'll get you two steals, a couple blocks,

a couple rebounds in addition to making smart plays and being a credible defender. The Thunder are actually pretty adequate defensively, surprisingly. But he's added on top of that being one of the best scores in the NBA. And so it's like it's actually really encouraging to see who he is as a player just on a bigger platform. with more opportunities. And I think that's like more than anything going forward with the Thunder, who are they going to draft in the next draft,

whether or not they get homegrown that they thought they were going to draft next season. I think this is one of the most encouraging signs in Thunder basketball in a couple years, honestly. Yeah, I would love to see the list of guards who have a better in-between game than Shea right now in terms of like floating range, high paint, all of that mid-range stuff.

He's just aces. And he can get to the rim too. And so the fact that he has all, of those components right now at that high usage rate, like that is an out and out star. That is that is a killer taking the leap, absolutely. Okay. So I also had Deer and Fox for similar reasons.

The Kings have become league past darlings as we expected. But Fox has really settled into, I think, the player that he probably was destined to become. I think like for a while we weren't really sure who he was. I think like to start with, we thought, oh, yeah, he's going to be a speedy defender. And it's like, oh, maybe not the defense. And then he, like, he shot so poorly as a rookie from three-point range. And then he came on, I believe, his second season, it's like, oh, maybe he is more of a shooter than we thought. And then he's kind of vacillated in this in-between zone where we weren't really sure to the point where, like, last year we were talking about him in potential trade packages for like the Sixers and the Blazers and some of these other teams is kind of a guy that you did not want.

But I think he's kind of settled in in this new Subbonis, Fox led Kings team as like this nice little version where he's, yeah, he can like zip. down the lane and get people on their heels and score at the bucket, but he's also developed this nice little mid-range game. And so I don't know. I think he's just like this nice version of all the different possible versions that Fox has become.

And that has led to decent results for the Kings thus far. Well, he's one of those guys where it seems like the feel has improved. We knew he had the speed. He was starting to put together in terms of just like a body of work over his first couple years in the last.

league, just that like general experience of like how to find guys, how to set things up, how to trigger certain actions. And now that's all finally coalescing and coming together in a way that, look, for some guys, it takes five or six years for those things to click. And when you're moving as fast as Deerun Fox is moving, maybe it just takes a little more time for some guys. And so there's, there's no question he's made huge strides as a game manager. As a guy who is like setting up and controlling possessions, he just looks a lot more advanced than he did over the previous seasons. Yeah, I had one more quick one. Russell Westbrook shooting 34% from three.

Fifth best among his rotation players. That's a fucking positive surprise, I'll say. It is a positive surprise. Here's some other candidates for you guys. How about the Portland Trailblazers and the NBA's sixth ranked defense right now? Tide for best in the Western Conference by record. When's the last time Portland had a good defense?

It's been a minute. They were adequate at times, like when Nurkich first got there, and that is often when they had their best teams, but it never got to the point where they were good. Right. Turns out you get a bunch of big-ass wings who play hard and, you know, have some level of defensive IQ and know-how. Good results.

Good results, Neil Olshe. How about Santi Aldama is an NBA starting caliber power forward for the Memphis Grizzlies? Just plug and play. Very hipster of you, but go ahead with your bad self. we already shouted at Jason Tatum but I think he's been even better than we could have expected coming into this season

the sons are just humming along despite everything and despite the fact that as we might get to in a little bit Chris Paul has not exactly looked himself when he's been on the court this season Nick Claxton if you're listening it's not your fault I want you to know you're doing great buddy keep it up

good bull hunting to keep to keep with the Kings Kevin Hurder having an incredible bounceback season for them He's been awesome. This is a list. This is longer than Kyrie's list of things to get back on the team. Like, for me, that's not a surprise for me. Because, again, I'm a car carrying member of Herde Hive.

Like, that's documented. Everybody knows that. Did you think he would look this cool with a headband? Oh, good question. No, I did not. White guy headband move is always a dicey proposition, but he's managing it quite. Unless you do like the, you know, like the headband that is sort of like flat, right?

It's sort of like a spandex almost, not the traditional Alan Iverson headband. That's tough for the white homies to pull off and cave on. Let me tell you. It's killing it. Yeah, let me tell you. That's a tough one. So just to clarify, Kevin Hurtur shooting 51% from three. Not a surprise.

That's business as usual. That's a little surprising. But yeah, I thought the Hawks were kind of foolhardy to let that dude go. I know they wanted to open up rotation minutes and all of that, but guy his size, his skill, shooting. I know I sound like his agent whenever I talk

about Kevin Herder, but I love the guy. The Hawks might have a case too, though, for making the Trey and DeJante mix look pretty easy for two all-star caliber guards playing together. Sure. Anybody else, Rob? How about Tari Easton and KJ. Martin, who've been

nice little bright spots for a very, very bad Rockets team. Very bad. Anthony Lamb, you want to throw him in there? Ty Jerome. Ty Jerome actually has been a nice surprise. Anthony Lamb, less so. Another surprise, which I have shared with you guys privately, but not on this pod. Shen Gung, man.

As literally the only organizing principle on that team, I was there when they played the the Rockets, which is like he's literally the only person who understands function basketball. Everybody else is basically a chicken with their head cut off. Ceyan Martin, he's pretty good, actually. I like him. But Shangoon is like, no, like,

he's the floor general of the team. So, yeah, I know I've done a lot of Shangoon bashing on this podcast, but I do want to say, first time I'm ever watching him in person and not on TV and you realize he's communicating everything to the entire team

whenever he's on the floor. He's basically the coach on the floor, which I hesitate to say about a white European guy, but it's just the truth. Yeah, shout to Shengun. That surprised me. Can't play defense, but yes, welcome to the church of Shengun. We hook shot our wafers into the communal basket. It was abuse what he was doing to Zub. That was mean.

That was just downright mean what he did to Zub that night. All right. Should we pivot now to our biggest disappointments? Yeah. Okay. We were just talking about the god Anthony Lamb. Would you like to talk about the guy who is not supplanting him in the rotation, but one of them? So Steve Kerr comes out last night after the game where they blow out San Antonio and basically Wiseman's out of the rotation.

He's been supplanted by the aforementioned Lamb, who was a training camp cast off, gets signed to a two-way. and he is thoroughly out playing your second pick third year big, right? Allegedly a franchise big. Wise, the Warriors, I think, have a 127 defensive rating in Wiseman minutes this season. Yeah, it's all bad. It's all bad. And Steve Curry is like, y'all, I'm sending this guy to the D-League. I mean, excuse me, the G-Lean.

And this is disappointing. This is a disappointing outcome. He's just, I get it. He hasn't played any real meaningful basketball so he doesn't have the reps. And, you know, I guess to flip to the bright side, this is what the G League is here for. Kavana Looney did a bunch of stints in the G League. He's probably Steve's favorite player of all time now. Same with Jordan Poole.

He did a bunch of stints in the D League. Those guys weren't number two picks. This is tough. You know, a guy that got picked before people like Mellow Ball and Halliburton and all of that kind of stuff, who is bad, y'all. It's disappointing. I'm very curious to see what his G-League experience is like because they run the gamut. As you mentioned, like Jordan Poole, great example of how a little bit of time there can be really transformative. But for most guys who go to the G-League, if you're as talented as James Wiseman, unless you are incredibly disciplined, you put up a lot of junk stats, you get a lot of.

get a lot of like janky post-ups against really small competition and it doesn't really do anything for you so like i really hope i'm sure the warriors are sitting him there with very specific instructions on what they wanted to see from him i hope that they're able i will hope he's able to deliver on that and i hope the system is able to deliver on that because this is not about like james wiseman can you put up 24 a night against gill league competition that's not really useful for anybody well i think it's a Weisman issue for all the reasons you guys talked about, as we talked about in the last podcast, he just doesn't seem like he has any sense of comfortability on the court right now on both

ends. But I also feel like it's a Warriors issue too for the reasons that we talked about because of this two timeline track. Like, he should be getting these sorts of opportunities on an NBA team for a non-title contender as is typically the type of team drafting that high in the draft and be able to work through his issues against the Schengun, against the Bruno Fernando and all these other guys, not against like guys he could easily just step over and and score 24 points on. And so yeah, Wiseman has some things he needs to work on. And I don't want to completely write this off as a warrior's two track sort of thing. But I think it's

fair to say that like this is potentially this sort of approach from ownership and the coaching staff might honestly be like just handicapping their future more than it's helping because they just don't have the opportunities to give these guys regular minutes without the burden of winning games in fucking November. So your problem is with the broader approach, though, and not specifically sending Wiseman to the G League. No, I actually don't think it's symptomatic of the problem to you. Yeah, I don't think it should be stigmatized as much as it probably still is to the point

where, like, nah, it should be stigmatized. Like, this isn't ashamed to be going down to the G League a couple of years ago where it was very clear that like he should be playing there. Justin, I got bad news. That was not a couple years ago. Well, there were multiple stint. But when he was still with the Grizzlies, I think they sent him down there. And it was like, oh, God, this is bad.

It's not that sort of situation. But like, I don't know, man. Like, like, how is this not as much the warrior's fault for just not having adequate minutes to throw at him so you could play like 10 to 15 minutes a game and have to worry about the fucking results? I mean, but he's so bad in those minutes. It's a ticket rebuttal. They got to try it, you know.

He's so bad. And, you know, to Rob's point about the, the, the, what you do in the G league when you're a guy of his talent and his pedigree is just, you know, essentially treated like Ellie Fitness. And I know this is like the seventh podcast in a row where I'm going to invoke European football. But like, if the Warriors can somehow put this dude on loan and have. him go play in like Israel and some shit. That would be more beneficial. Obviously, that's not a thing. But that, like, he'd be playing like a real league, right?

Like, where you actually, like, had to, some level of defensive discipline would have to be adhered to to have success. Like, that would be cool if he could play in, you know, Spain or somewhere and get minutes that way. That's not, obviously, it's not a thing in basketball. You know, Rob just made me think, like, is he even? going to get the opportunity to improve this positional because the stuff that he's doing if you watch him guys he's reacting like two seconds two seconds in eternity by the way in a given

defensive possession just in the wrong direction just just delayed reactions then it's not like he's been some world beat on offense either he's he's pretty bad there too it's just it doesn't matter that much because the Warriors have so many gifted offensive players is not a big deal. But what he's doing on, he's just lost. He doesn't know what he's doing. And so he has to go out and learn this somewhere. And, you know, you wonder if the G League is going to be where that happens. Rob, do you have anyone you want to bring up here?

I mean, it feels like the Nets are an easy disappointment for the season for lots of reasons. I'm just going to, I'm just going to lob that in there and keep it moving because I don't really want to talk about the Nets anymore. To another team I don't really want to talk about, because we've already spilled plenty on them. But how is this not the Lakers? This is so bad. I actually don't think we've talked about the Lakers that much.

We probably haven't, at least since, like, the very, very early stages of the season. But to me, what makes the Lakers the biggest disappointment is at this stage, right? Like, we're looking at where they are right now, at 3 and 10, near the bottom of the Western Conference standings. they have one of the best players in NBA history on the roster and there is just no glimmer of light off in the distance

they're just staring into the void of an 82 game season and they have to realize it's all meaningless. Like there's nothing for them here. Well, Rob, I don't know if you saw it, but Dennis Schrooter and Thomas Bryant might be back by the end of the week. Look, Dennis Schroeder's actually going to help. That's the thing.

That's the crazy thing about that. He's going to make you better. Not that he's going to make them good. He's going to make things better, which is just like in 2022, if Dennis Schrooter is going to meaningfully improve your rotation, holy moly. Another team and player comboed,

I've been a little bit disappointed. Can we talk about the Lakers a little bit more here? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Because I also have written down Rob Polinka specifically. You're disappointed in Rob Polinka? Yeah, which is tough to do. You have high hopes for him. Yeah, exactly. The bar is absolutely low.

Him getting an extension was like giving an Enron executive a Christmas bonus right before they turned the lights off. I have no fucking idea what that guy has over that organization. But clearly, like, he is living the most charmed life possible with the most perfectly iron cardigans that you could ever find at Macy's. But I just don't know what is going on with him, with your organization, with the, the power dynamics between him and LeBron and clutch and whatever, where they are just so entrenched in the long-term vision of this team

that they wouldn't even just trade for adequate players like a buddy healed, like a Miles Turner, as everybody's talking about. Like, what is a 2027 and a 29 first-round draft pick going to get you long-term? Like, are you just so eagle bruised from the fact that you might give the Pelicans Victor Webbenyama, which would be quite honestly one of the biggest disaster. of all time that you just don't want to keep like burying yourself

long term and like wouldn't it just help to be to make the most out of this situation if it's going to get bad regardless I just like I cannot wrap my head around like what the fuck this team is doing you know you know what would be nice Justin leadership

from the top they have none they're a leaderless organization Jeannie Buss is not a good leader she's just not. Like there's all the rumors and innuendo about her inner circle and blah, blah, blah. You don't even have to entertain that.

Just all of the things Justin just outlined about Rob Palenka's job and his tenure and the job that he's done constructing this roster. The idea that the leader of this organization paid this man more, gave him an extension behind that,

that's all you need to. know they're leaderless they don't have direction um jean bus is a bad owner she's a bad manager she doesn't know what she's doing it's clear as day that's why this thing is a mess that's that you end up with this roster and i am i crazier did someone on this podcast come in preseason it was like you know what kendrick nun yeah he was doing the same he was doing the lakers are good sick you know hold on i specifically did not put them in my next second which is preseason Mulligan, because I stand by the take that had they just traded those goddamn draft picks for credible rotation players, this wouldn't be as bad as it is today.

Because their problem is now is that it's so bad that it's almost impossible to dig yourself out of this hole. If they were five in five or somewhere around 500, it would be like, this is kind of a disaster, but like maybe if XYZ goes right, right. But now it's just like, what is the point and even rolling out of bed in the morning and suiting up? That's how bad this has gotten purely because of Polinka's

ownership's decisions. It's a one day at a time, one foot in front of the other kind of season for our friends in L.A. So best of luck to Lonnie Walker and company. All right. Which team are you going to pivot to? Kat in Minnesota.

I'm pretty disappointed in both. It's just, I don't know, there's something weird about Kat. It's not that he's not a talented player, It's just his leadership style and his just inability to execute basic defensive ideas. And I get that Rudy has his offensive limitations. And, you know, it's kind of sagged the team. And they need to be more creative about working that around.

Like, I'm with the mind, like, is this dude the guy that needs to get shipped? You know, maybe get him. If you can get stuff for him, meaning rotational guys and maybe some picks, maybe get cat out of there and just unclogged that whole thing and just let it be about Anthony Edwards and him finding himself as

you know a potential superstar in this league because the Minnesota thing has been a little disappointing and I think the cat thing has been like man I'm not a fan of how he's comported himself so far this season. Even when it has worked it's felt like a little brute forcey

and I don't mean that in the sense of like oh they're like a big bruise team. I mean, it's like, it's not cat finding elegant solutions to the spacing problems. It's him just like driving really hard at somebody and it kind of works, but in a way that doesn't always feel all that sustainable. So like

he is a guy who like in terms of decision making, you often wonder about. You know, like he does commit a lot of offensive fouls. He does have a lot of like bad turnovers that then lead to like bad effort and transition and stuff like that. He's just not someone you trust as your best player necessarily to read the

floor in a consistent way. And we're some of that manifest with their struggles offensively. I mean, they're a tough watch on offense. There's no way around that. I think it's worse than that, though, because DeWaz's point, I just don't think guys want to really listen to him. Like, when he's saying stuff like Anthony Edwards shouldn't eat Popeyes and like we really need to be gritty and dirty and people are just outright.

Roll your eyes. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with Popeyes. I'll say that first and foremost. Like, welcome to group chat suggestion box sponsored by Popeye. starting next week. Please. No, but like, I just don't think he's like a guy that people want to rally around. Like, not to do the whole Justin mentions Anthony Davis, so drinks sort of thing.

But like, for the same reasons, Anthony Davis is a best player, not a leader. I think Kat falls into that territory. He's absolutely offensively gifted and would be a boon for any team in this league. But I just think it's tough when you try to empower your best player as a leader of the franchise. is that's really now the role that they're suited for. That's why you hire guys like Pat Beverly and want not to do that job. And it just seems like they kind of got rid of those guys

and Rudy and some of the new guys haven't filled that void yet. What do you think the Knicks will be willing to give up for Carl Anthony Towns? Everything that isn't nailed downed? Just saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Any other disappointments here? Yeah, I got some honorable mentions. I mean, starting with Kawhi Leonard not really playing basketball so far. Not great. Don't love it. gonna be talking to Law Murray on our podcast. There we go.

At the end of the week, gonna get really deep into that, yeah. We're really just feeding the weekends with Waz podcast on the show. You know, I'm getting KOC and Kyle some love too. Come on now. We promote everything here. Yeah, if this is a straight pipeline, we are the G League to Weekends with Waws on Fridays.

That's apparently what's happening. All right, so we got Kauai. How about the Pistons? So I think we were all pretty excited about, and have just been extremely bad, extremely bad. It's hard to be disappointed in that when it's like, you know. It's not a bad thing for them ultimately. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

That might be where they need to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To keep on the Minnesota point, DeAngelo Russell, who just does not have it. He's not a good NBA player. Not really working out too well. It's never part of that. C.J. McCollum's jump shot right now, not great. A little concerning, hoping he can turn that around for a player at his size.

and anti-Semitism. All right. Just saying. Yeah, it's definitely disappointing when that is a vote, yeah. Number five on our list here, preseason mulligans, which take do you want back already?

I'll bring up mine just because Rob kind of alluded to them there. It is not the Lakers. Are you sure? Are you sure? You sure? It's not even the Nets who I feel like I adequately hedged against.

You did say they were a championship level team. Yes, you did say that. If they just like engage in the product, did not expect motions at literally every, every damn thing. I have the clippers here, the team that I picked as the title favorites number one in our preseason power rankings.

I will never believe in the clippers ever again. I don't care if Kauai comes back with extra legs and limbs on him. Like, I just don't want to ever put any cases in the team. If he comes back as a centipede, just shooting multiple balls at once. He's back to five on five. He comes back as Dr. Octopus. Where he's cool goggles on the court now.

He's back to five to five. And yet, Tailu is saying he looks pretty good, still has a ways to go. I don't know if this guy is going to show up ever again on an NBA court. And I'm really tired of trying to track it all. And so the clippers are a 500 team with what they have. and it's fine. Like maybe there's like some silver lining there. But yeah,

no, never again is title favorites for me. Yeah, see, I hate watching the Clippers right now. It's very disappointing that Kauai isn't playing. And I'm still there,

baby. I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting for the clippers to be good. Paul George looks incredible. He's been really good. And some of the guys who started, some of the guys who started slow are starting to round into form

with their shots too. So look, they're not going to be anything without Kauai. But hopefully at some point, we get to see him play basketball again. maybe even as soon as this week, reportedly. So my mulligan guys and my zeal to be dismissive of certain small market teams in America's heartland,

I was very dismissive of Utah and OKC. And to be honest, they put on the floor some of the most fun NBA product that we got this season, both of those teams. Their guys play hard. They play in unison. There's legitimate talent out there on the floor, Lori Marketing. And it's just, you know, I would definitely like to take that back because I was definitely like, all right, let's get this small market rebuild, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you know, plucky, whatever.

Get it out of here. I'm good. I don't need to hear about it. And these guys, you know, they put together some fun, interesting. interesting basketball teams. And so yeah, shout to OKC and Utah for that. To be fair,

anytime anyone from Utah or any reporters suggest that Utah was not trying to tank is 100% full of shit. They literally traded their three best players ostensibly. At least their two best players and a couple other quality rotation players for draft picks and young guys

who were at best like middle tier first round picks, So this idea that like they expected something like this to happen or they were trying is I'm sorry to say for everyone in Utah. Horshit, but I am glad that they are now here and doing well. That's like it's one of the best stories in recent NBA history that they've been able to blow past expectations this more. But again, horseshit. Well, the jazz actually tie nicely into my Mulligan too because the other night I watched the jazz play the Sixers. and Joelle Embed

had what was one of the most dominant performances I've ever seen just completely abusing Kelly Olinick among others with little face-up jumpers with every kind of move possible inside just a completely dominant offensive game and if not for Colin Sexton

missing a wide open Jordan Clarkson and not passing it to him the Sixers were probably going to lose that game they very nearly lost maybe I mean Joel's career high in scoring probably his most dominant performance ever, maybe the most dominant performance you've seen from any player this season.

And man, I wouldn't say I was a true believer in the Sixers in the preseason, but I was too bullish on a team that has some pretty clear issues. And I don't want to say anything too wild about this team while Hardin's still out, but there's like enough elements there that are pretty off

that I'm starting to kind of slowly back away from my Sixers optimism and just hope no one sees me slink out the door. Well, let me push back on slightly because on our next little segment here I have whose stock are you buying low on from this point forward

I wrote down the sixers because at the least the statistical indicators suggest the team is actually better than what we've seen six best point differential in the east which suggests that their top six team clear cut playoff team not a play and team 10th best net rating and now some of that

has been cleared up by hard and not being on the court but this would suggest that there's something simmering there down below that might be better than the muck that we've witnessed thus far. I would hope that's the case. I think what is concerning me is

not only do you have to figure out the Harden thing when he comes back, not only do you have to figure out will James Harden be a healthy player for the majority of this season and the games that matter when he comes back, but it's like PJ Tucker doesn't look super mobile

and isn't really contributing offensively. The bench has been so come and go. Guys like Montres Harrell, who I was really hoping, would be an impact player for them off the bench. Now is like being moved around on the rotation where he isn't even like the straight up back up center a lot of times for Doc Rivers.

I don't know. It's just, I wish I could feel more confident because I like a lot of the component parts. Something just feels pretty off with that group. All right. So should we pivot to the bylaws since I've already mentioned the Sixers? Yeah. Was, who do you have on your list?

Man, this is going to be a little controversial, but I'm buying low on Kyrie. And that's because what the fuck. I'm telling you literally because this is a penny stock. This is this literally is worth the stock at this point and I'm cheap. And this is why.

It's just like I have to believe that this dude could just stop doing bullshit and play basketball and be there for his guys. Like I have to believe. that he has that in him. Like somehow that he could just take his head out of his own ass

and just be like, yo, let me just be a normal basketball player. Play hard. Show up for my guys. Display my talent. That he's still a talented player. Like he's got multiple games. We dropped 30 just this year. Like, he's still a talented.

Like, I have to believe that he can figure out a way to do this somehow. Like, I know all of the shit about. about the, you know, the redemption and all the stuff he's doing to get better and get right in the minds of ownership and management and all of that. Like, I'm not even talking about that. I'm just like, bro, like, do you not have any of you to just show up and play competent basketball somewhere? Like, I have to believe that's true, that he can redeem himself.

In that baseline way, this isn't even like a high bar, right? Not that he's going to come in and be the guy from 2016 winning finals for his team, But like a good NBA player who just puts his head down and shows up and collects a check. Like, God damn, this is what 99.9% of the league does every single day. How can you not be, how can you be incapable of that? And so, yeah, I got to buy the penny stock that is Kyrie's career right now. I am a broken man. My guy doesn't even know how to use Instagram stories without spreading a crazy-ass documentary.

and we're buying low. We're buying in on that. It's about as low as you get. I don't even... I mean, you are doing the assignment, yeah, but I don't even think he's made a pass like 20 to 30% of the checklist they had to get through to come back to the team.

Big TBD on that. Yeah, let's put a bullet in that one. Rob, who do you have? So we talked a lot about how disappointed we are in James Wiseman. I wrote for the ringer.com about why the backhouse Half of the Warriors rotation has been pretty much a disaster and I laid out all my concerns there.

And I did that because I wanted to artificially drive the price down so I can swoop in and get all this sweet warrior stock because I'm going to tell you they still have Steph Curry and they still have one of the best lineups in basketball. And if between now and the end of the season, they get one or two more competent players, Bing, bang, boom. They're right there on the title hunt again.

Yeah, so like James Wiseman can't really play basketball right now. Sure. You know, Clay Thompson has not looked at, great. You know, Jordan Poole has been pretty uneven to say the least. There's a lot of things going on, but I'm still relative to the rest of the West right now

and every other team having questions, if not, like, just kind of a lower ceiling than one of the Warriors can go. I'm still in on Golden State. I'm still scooping upstock. I agree with you. And we centered our best player conversation around Janice and Luca,

but make no mistake. Steph Curry's right there. He's still, he is, man, if you guys watch what he did in the fourth quarter of that game, Cab's game. It was, it was just ridiculous. He is still right at the top of the heap of best players in the league. You know, I throw Yolkich in there. I throw a few guys in there, but like, Steph is that guy. They just got to fix up their rotation a little bit, as Rob already mentioned.

I don't see how you could. If you're writing off the Warriors, I don't think you know anything about NBA basketball, to be honest. I also have pooled down specifically on my list because he had 36 against the Spurs last night on Monday night. And while in the mid-coaches interview break, the guy was asking Pop, what was his favorite animal? And the Spurs were getting blown out by like 30 at one point. So I don't think that's probably the best measure of Jordan Poole's NBA skills.

But he's been too bad for too long here. And I just don't think like that is an accurate assessment of who he is as a player. Like the bounce back is coming. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of when. And I say that as someone who's not a big pool party enthusiast, both Jordan Pool and also Literal Pool Parties. But I believe Jordan Pool is a player in this league,

and you should be fine. What's your move at the literal pool party? Are you, like, lounging on the side? You out there splashing around? You lounge in the chair? What are you doing? Not going at all? I thought you just said you were a fan of pool parties.

No, I said I'm not a fan of pool parties. Oh, okay. I'm back in a way. I miss her. Are you hitting the Dallas pool scene a youth? I love a pool. Come on. Give me on the sun. Let's do it. Okay. Anybody else you want to mention here? Bailos? I don't think we need to give away too many of our stock tips, you know? Like, we need to save some for us. Was, do you want to make the case for a Myers-Lennard come back?

You want to just complete the second? Myers-Lennard. No. But, I mean, the last guy that got into something anti-Semitic MBA-related, like, this dude, was on the fringes of the league already. They was like, get the fuck out of here, kick rocks. Like, Kyrie Irvin is clearly a starting player in the NBA. If not borderline All-Star, they usually find ways to make that work

if you don't behave like a complete lunatic, which, you know, again, remains to be seen. Okay. Maybe we'll get into that more next time. But remember, suggestion box gc at gmail.com. Get those suggestions in of all shapes, all sizes. Say hello. ask me how's my days going. Ask Rob what he's doing

at the pool party this weekend. But we'll be back next week, same time, same place. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for filling in on production. We'll see it.