The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Potluck: One Player, One Team, One Take | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos have each brought three takes to the table this Thanksgiving week. They each start with their take about a player (4:33), then a team (33:20), then one general take about anything in the NBA (59:31). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And together we host The Big Picture, The Ringers Film Podcast for New Releases, career retrospectives, director interviews, movie drafts, top fives, and so much more. Twice a week, we break down the latest releases,

argue about whether movies are doomed, and debate our modern film canon. Listen to The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Group chat, I am Justin Barrier, and joining me for this Thanksgiving edition of Group Chat, Rob Mahoney, Big Waj. gentlemen, I feel like every time for this episode, we open with you guys talking us through some sort of obscure cooking method.

And I kind of just zone out for a little bit. Who would like to take the mantle here? Waz, you seem particularly excited about this. Well, I made a prime rib for my friends giving on Sunday. Hell yes. Shouts to my man Kenji Lopez, who pioneered the reverse sear method, which traditionally you would sear your prime rib first, thereby having the outer layer be completely cooked by the time it's cooked through. In this method, you cook it at a very low temp, low and slow.

For me, it took about five hours. And then you ratchet up the oven to as high as you can to get a nice bark on the outside. You still get that even pink on the inside while having a beautiful crust. It's so good. Perfection. And that's before we even talk about the freaking red wine reduction, azou that I made. It was, it was quite glorious. I'm not going to lie.

Yeah. I have to say the best thing you can do for your family and friends and really for yourself is ditch turkey at Thanksgiving, substitute with the prime rib. Wow. I've come to seem the world this way too. And honestly, our friend Jomi Adoneron on the social team, he's the one who showed me this way, who showed me the way of the prime rib, I can never go back.

And honestly, too, if you're hosting, as I like to do, the fact that you can do the long roast for the prime rib early, and then as you're saying was, you pop it in, just for a quick five or six minutes, really, to get that sear at the high temp. Ideal for Thanksgiving prep, ideal. By the way, people basically want that turkey for content purposes, photo op,

so that, oh, we add the turkey. that's what we got AI for just put that AI in there just turkey just AI the turkey we don't have to you know choke on that dry ass breast meat anymore we're on to better days thankfully

so prime rib not anything else because I saw David Chang friend of the podcast I guess we'll say I've never met him before he's a colleague associate I've been to major domo yeah exactly he was suggesting fried

chicken as like the extreme option as a turkey replacement. You guys won't go that far though. I'm not, I'm not allowed to make fried chicken anymore. I nearly, I literally started a kitchen fire and nearly burned by building down one time trying to fry chicken. So I've taken all my fried eating outside the house. You know, I do enough of that out there inside. We're not frying things anymore. Yeah, to me, that's the only downside of a fried food is like the amount of oil that you have to use and figuring out, do I keep it for later usage? Where do I store it? If I am getting rid of it, what do I even, how do I dispose of the matter?

Like, it's just, it's so much work that goes into deep frying stuff. So, yeah, I think that should be reserved for special occasions. Thanksgiving is a special occasion. It's just you got to be up for the maintenance of what it takes to fry stuff. But this is the outside the box thinking we need, right? prime rib fried chicken Peking duck Like whatever you want to do

That's like a showpiece and delicious Please do it Because no one wants that turkey anymore And even to your point was about it being like Instagram fodder No one's putting the whole turkey on the table anymore For that glamour shot It's coming pre-carved by the time it even shows up

So what are we even doing here? So for those of you that skipped five minutes ahead In the podcast Welcome to the podcast You could have listened to Robin Waz talking about New York Times cooking recipes. It was really fun. I had a great time. But we're here to do the annual.

I want to say third annual, but who knows at this point. MBA potluck, this is a tradition on group chat. We have each brought to the metaphorical table that is this podcast, one player, one take, one team. And we will go around the horn going through those. We'll start with the players. Rob, do you want to start with your first offering, your first dish, your appertief, perhaps, your appetizer, whatever you want to call it, you're one player. My player is Deerrin Fox. And you know what, Deeran Fox and the Kings just had a pretty hideous game on the second night of a back-to-back.

I am not going to let that deter me from talking about the reigning Western Conference player of the week. Because I think Deeran Fox has been sensational to start this season. And really, the more he and Sabonis play together, the more their partnership kind of clarifies what both those guys do so well. And for Fox in particular, man, he just turned into an absolute buzzsaw score and what he can do off a handoff, off a pick and roll,

backing up to half court, revving up, and just going at guys in ISO. I think it's been a revelation this season. And you can see kind of an MVP level impact in the games he's played and in the games he hasn't for Sacramento. I know. So I think he's absolutely worth highlighting, especially given that we just haven't really gotten to the Kings this season

and in particular to what Fox has done so well. Yeah, I just love that DeAnne Fox can be the poster child for staying the course on a young guy. Totally. Because there were those crossroads moments for him, even with the Kings, where it was like, man, is this actually ever going to happen for this guy? And, you know, there were people when they got, rid of Halliburton, and I was like, you sure it shouldn't have been Deerrin Fox that you got

rid of. And the Kings stay in the courts with him. He's rewarded them with that. And to me, it's about, it's not just that he's become such a playmaker. I think he's an emotional leader for what they do out there. For me, it's just, you can just put the ball in his hands and expect great things to happen by itself. Obviously, the partnership with Subonis has been a godson for both of their careers, I think. And for Mike, round, you know, particularly. But just the fact that you can just give him the ball and say, hey, take us home. That he's doing that now, getting to the cup, putting up threes at a ridiculous rate.

It's beautiful to see. So he went into last night's game against the Pelicans tied for first in scoring. He's not that after a dreadful evening for the Sacramento Kings. Shouts to the Pelicans, who've been playing well pretty much since we wrote them off for dead or at least Waz and I did. But here's Fox's shot diet right now. He is first in the league for field goals attempted. He is tied for fourth and three-pointers attempted at nine a game.

That's that curry levels. Free throws attempted a game ninth in the league. And now he's played fewer games. He's only played eight because of that ankle sprain. So the math is a little funnier than it is for some players who have had like 13 games at this point. But that's star level stuff, Rob. Yeah. I think him going from a very dangerous mid-range shooter and floater threat,

who could obviously be fast enough to get to the rim. That's kind of where his profile was. Now he is a genuine, bona fide three-level guy. Not only is he taking a lot of threes, and you might expect, given Sacramento's offense in the way they move the ball, that those threes look like Kevin Herder's threes or Keegan Murray's threes. They don't. They are pull-ups.

He's taken five pull-up threes a game. He's hitting 42% of those shots. that's about as many attempts pulling up as your steffs, as your dames, as your jason Tatum's. The fact that Dier and Fox is turning into that kind of guy, and as you said, Justin, one of the best threats in the league to get to the free throw line, I just don't know what you concede to him at this point.

And when you have a guy who's already that fast and who has really some of the best body control in the business in terms of his ability to change speeds, maneuver around bodies, like you think you're in front of him, but I can assure you you are not. And how you guard that, kind of player when he can also pull up and hit at a 40% clip. It's getting into scary hours with Dier and Fox.

So the Kings have won six in a row. And after they won the sixth game, Mike Brown got on his Doc Rivers and suggested that Dieran Fox should be in the MVP race. A little early, I'll say. But was, do you think like Fox is entering that sort of territory where we need to start talking about him,

at least in the conversation with those guys? I mean, I don't think you can describe his play so far. The season is as anything less than MVP level worthy. Like, he's the primary scorer and distributor for his team. And he's no slouch on defense. Like, this guy is the complete package. And again, I don't think we would think of the talent on the Kings as being overwhelming in any way, shape, or form.

It's him. He's the reason why they're a damn good team and a tough out night in and night out. Last night notwithstanding. I was having a conversation recently about who would you rather have on your team, D. Aaron Fox or Shay Gilgis Alexander. And the fact that that's even a thought exercise, I think speaks to how Fox has kind of climbed the ladder here because his peers, his contemporaries, used to be more of, you know, the Darius Garlands, maybe the Donovan Mitchells, if you want to put him in that group.

I think he is climbing that ladder. And if he continues playing at this level, this is just one of the best guards in the NBA and certainly one of the best guards in the West. Which makes the trade, I feel like, for Halliburton, even more interesting that it already is. Like, I keep thinking about this. And there really isn't much more to add to this.

But like, this has to be one of the most interesting, fascinating, important trades of the last decade. And maybe even longer to that when you consider the recent track record for trades. is really just star player getting trade for a kid and caboodle of draft picks, right? I think especially from the perspective of, I don't know that Deeran Fox would be in this position doing these exact things if he was still playing with Tyrese Halliburton.

And I say that with, I mean, clearly someone with thousands of words to say about how great Tyrese Halliburton is. But the idea of balancing two guards is just fundamentally different than running Fox off of the Sabona's handoffs, running him off of that hub action that Sacramento has and does so well, I just think this has been such a godsend for him. And in particular, it allows Fox to be a high impact, incredibly threatening, and also low turnover player. He doesn't have to really stretch himself as a playmaker in a way that if he was a lead guard, even sharing the ball with Halliburton, he might have to be a little bit more. And that really suits him too. Like, he makes

smart passes, but he doesn't have to make that many difficult passes. And I just really like the way that trading even a very talented, very effective ball sharing guard for a big who can give Sacramento's offense the structure it needs, I really like the way that that has kind of accelerated Fox's game and shaped it and honed it into an even more dangerous direction. And I just don't think you can expect guys with the makeup of Halliburton and Fox. These are ambitious guys in their games that you would be like, hey, Tyrese Halliburton, use up only 30% of your capabilities

on a night in and night out basis, be paid in accordance with that and also keep team harmony. It doesn't work like that. Like, just for chemistry purposes, it made sense to separate those two. And the fact that both of them have become all-stars outright, independent of each other is just a beautiful thing to see for fans and for fans of those teams and players

and also just them individually. Rob, you need to write about that trade. That's your next assignment that I'm assigning you. I already wrote about Tyrese Hallibor. What do you want me to do? It's almost as if Justin Vary is your editor, Rob. I want the TikTok of like how this went down. I want to feel the emotions of what happened when they were traded.

All right. talking about an MVP candidate. I'm also going to bring out an MVP candidate, and that is Mitchell Robinson. Hell yeah. I have to say, he has to be one of the most weird players that we've had in decades at this point, because he's somehow only scoring 6.6 points per game, and yet he also has 6.1 offensive rebounds per game. Nuts. I don't know how this happened. like his lines on a given night are one of my favorite things to look at because after a given night I'll just like look at the box score, see what people did, keep up track, everything.

It's like 14 rebounds, 10 offensive rebounds, three points. Like I just, I have never seen a player like this, Rob. Yeah, and to put it in context, there are teams right now that average like seven or eight offensive rebounds at game. OKC, the Lakers, Milwaukee. Mitchell Robinson is regularly scooping down six, and seven and eight, he's doing it in career high minutes, career low fouls, career best defensive impact.

It's incredible to see him grow up in his game in all the ways we wanted him to do, right? So much of this guy's battle has been like, can you just stay on the floor, please? Like, can you make, can you minimize your mistakes and can you minimize your fouls enough to actually be a big time player in this league where your coach can count on you to make an impact in these games? And he's not only doing that with just defensive excellence in a way that is, frankly, anchoring the Knicks at this early stage in the season, but the second chance points, it's ridiculous.

It's ridiculous the things that he is opening up for New York right now. Yeah, and the crazy thing is I think we understand now why Coach Tibbs is so in love with this dude. We've made our fair share of jokes about his disgust for Obie Topping when really probably the whole time is just like, He was very enamored of Mitchell Robinson and what he brings to the table. Just the idea that you show up to every single NBA game with a guy who is physically imposing. Where the other team is like,

we can concentrate on trying to stop what this guy does and it's not going to matter. We can dedicate resources to stop in Mitchell Robinson and it's not going to work because he is that physically dominant on the offensive boards, man. And the Knicks, you know, nobody will accuse them of being, you know, seven seconds or less sons. And so they need these extra possessions.

They need these sort of scrap heap garbage type of, you know, points that are generated from offensive rebounds. And so, man, like, he's justified Tibado's love for him over the course of these past few seasons with just astonishing rebounds. rebounding levels, man. Like, honestly, you know, Popovich popularized the idea that you would just get back on defense. You know, you can't crash the boards and get back on defense at the same time.

And because it's a copycat league and everybody thought Pop was a freaking, you know, some genius savant. Everybody followed suit with that. And in recent years, the smartest teams understand that these are free possessions. Yeah. And if you have a guy to get you free possessions,

that's a very value. commodity. It's a huge strategic battleground in the league right now, like how much effort and attention you should focus on the offensive glass. And Mitchell Robinson being a one-man wrecking crew makes this decision pretty easy. He is proof

positive of how much you can create from junk in terms of making a functioning offense, not just on the boards, but also Fred Katz had a great story in the athletic about the four, five pick and rolls that New York is running now to get Julius Randall free. Like, right, pulling a big away from the basket, getting

Randall so momentum. Your right was that they're not the seven seconds or less sons. But Robinson is stepping up, setting a lot of those same kinds of step-up screens in transition for Randall, like what Anamari Sadamire would run for Steve Nash. And now the results are a little different, a little more barreling, a little more blundering sometimes for Julius Randall, but it's a way to get one of your most important scores loose. And it's all coming down to like Robinson setting some smart picks in those situations. Here's how I know Mitchell Robinson has crossed over into the mainstream. The Nick. put out and mixed tape a couple days ago of every offense a nix tape of every offensive rebound

that he had had up until that point and i'll tell you what i've watched it not once but twice my friends yeah um so i mentioned at the top of this that robinson has over six offensive rebounds a game that's only happened for three players it's happened six times in mbaa history can you guys name those players. Oh, my God. Six times in the history. How is the most recent? The most recent one is 26 years ago.

Oh, my God. So one person did it four times. So the only person that immediately comes to mind with any rebounding category is Dennis Rodman. Because that's one of them. That was his only function on the Bulls. Like, he never touched the ball. He never did anything else. But guard call Malone and rebound.

And so obviously Dennis Robin comes to my, but I don't really think, because offensive rebounding is just not a glamorous statistic, right? The fact that the Knicks made a mixtape about it is, is like kitschy. It's like funny. You don't get girls for offensive rebounding. Yes. Yeah. Well, it's tough too because even on the other end of the time spectrum of the NBA, like,

they didn't count offensive rebounds for Will Chamberlain, right? They weren't tabulated in the box score then. So, like, all the guys I can. think of who are like big time, huge volume rebounders. I would think so, but who knows? Mitchell would have two if he was playing against plumbers and carpenters and mechanics. This is the question we need to be asking. What would Mitchell Robinson have put up in the earlier eras of the NBA?

So Moses Malone did it four times. And the most recent player to do it was Jason Williams, went to jail, Jason Williams. He did it 26 years ago. Yeah. Younger listeners, Google the Jason Williams story, y'all. It's so effed up that another Jason Williams changed his freaking name, the J. Yeah. To dodge the association.

So I will say, though, you brought up Dennis Rodman, and I do think Robinson has some of that in him, because as I mentioned, I watched this mixtape multiple times. He is not only good at tipping it in because he has awful hands, let's just be honest, Like he should be averaging like 12 points a game. But on a lot of these putbacks, he just kind of misses, which as a fantasy owner, I have to say, is very disappointing when he comes through with like four points and like 19 rebounds. But his ability to track a ball off of the rim and so it doesn't go long is remarkable. And so he definitely has something else to him in addition to just the brute force that I think we were talking about. Well, I also want to bring up that he not only has skills on the basketball court,

but I don't know if you guys have seen the recent story in the New York Post about how many dogs he has. Not only does he have dog in him, but he also has 19 dogs. 19 dogs scattered across two homes, which I would have to say as a dog owner, I feel very bad for the dogs that have to wait in the auxiliary home. Well, I assume there's some caretaking involved, but just sure. Just the words 19 dogs makes me very anxious. That's a lot. He not only had 19 dogs, he used to have sugar gliders, which are like monkeys.

They're adorable, yeah. They're kind of like flying squirrel adjacent, I would say, rodent-orntish. Until his cats killed them. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, and he wants ferrets. Yeah. I think at the point where you can't keep sugar,

gliders because of your cats, you probably should not keep ferrets. Just some free advice for our guy, Mitchell Robinson. But look, who among us has not had the compulsion to adopt 19 or so dogs on occasion? I understand the impulse. I just, we need to exercise some control. We've taken the dog thing too far in this country, I'm telling you. Cat man, Lodney Lambray has checked into the chat. It's just crazy, dude.

This is why he needed an extension, like a couple of. years ago. He's like, the dog. Oh, my God. Can we, can we get our guy a sponsorship, too, like Neutro? Can we get him on the call? Get our guy to hookup on pet food. He's running his bank account into the ground.

In the notes, Justin says he chose to live in White Plains. Well, yeah, you need a freaking house with a yard. You have to live in Westchester County in order to get a backyard and be reasonably close to Manhattan. So, yeah, it makes sense that he had to get his ass over there. Well, plus with 19 dogs for tax purposes, I think legally you're a ranch at that point, not just a home.

All right, Wise, do you want to go now? My player that I'm bringing to the table, a little guy you guys might have heard of, LeBron James. Yeah, this is a little like you bringing prime rib to your friend's giving. Like, no one is going to complain about you showing up with LeBron here.

And again, what he's doing, shout to my man, Yovam Buha, for putting out, you know, a story today. about just how insane LeBron has been, this according to Yovon, through 13 games. He's shooting 58% from the field, 68% from 2, effective field goal percentage of 65,

a true shooting percentage of 67. He's shooting 82% at the rim, 47% from mid-range, 40% like this is nuts, 40% from 3, just otherworldly efficiency. Again, we all laughed and snickered when Darvindham was like, Braun's going to play 30 minutes a game

after that first game in the season, they quickly abandoned this thing, and it's just they have to ride him. And that's the thing. He's not just doing this for effect. They need this. They absolutely need him to be this great. They're moving in a positive direction,

finally, on the season. And for me, what makes this season special, obviously there's the year 21, and appreciate greatness, blah, blah, blah, blah. For me, it's LeBron in the freaking in-season tournament game against the worst team in the league, the Portland Trailblazers, and he's playing his ass off.

He's doing the no-look passes running the other way early because he just knows his teammate is going to splash it. After the game, him going, listen, of course I want to win the in-season tournament. This could be life-changing money for one of my teammates in their family, like the investment, the ambassadorship. It's incredible. I was talking to a friend of the pods,

Sabrina Merchant, recently. And I was like, yo, could you imagine if LeBron treated his ambassador, his icon status, his importance to the league, his career, the way say, I don't know, Zion Williamson and John Miranda do?

Would people like LeMello Ball have laugh at Jean-Carlalto-Stanton money. You know, Aaron Judge's contract, Lamello Ball looks at that and laughs. You know, icons of their sport, Lamello Ball just to get,

just gets to just make that kind of money. Could that even be possible without LeBron treating his job the way that he does? And so for me, it's just incredible to watch, honestly. As long as he can do this, I'm going to want to watch him do this shit. I think LeBron is the only player in the NBA

who said that he's trying to win the in-season tournament in order to get at his own season tournament in order to get his other players money. So shout to him. I think he's due for sainthood even, you know? You really can't see it in his effort in those games, in the Lakers' effort in those games. Was, I'm in total alignment with you on this.

Like, what LeBron has done in terms of carrying the mantle of the league is something that it's just kind of a side note or an asterisk of the conversation about him. But the circumstances in which he's done it, the ascent into the internet era of the league. You know, like the deep reconnaissance and research that has gone into every phase of his career from the time he was a teenager until now

and how relatively spotless he's been throughout that entire stretch while taking this stuff seriously, while taking the leadership in the league seriously, it's what makes the conversation of what happens after LeBron so interesting. Because even the good citizens, even the Janus, even the Luka's, even the guys who are good,

like good players on the court. You name it. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just such an immense weight to put on literally any human being shoulders. And the LeBron has carried it with, yeah, the cornyness, but also the relative grace that he has,

I think is a really important part of kind of the legend of what he's become. Also, underrated, if, listeners, if you want to laugh, just watch any LeBron post game interview. It's just, he's just saying the most, hilarious, ridiculous platitudes. Like, he is so locked into great teammate leader mode. It's like watching Ron Burgundy speak. It's hilarious, dude.

Yeah, he's on autopilot. He knows what to do when to do it. Yeah, what to say. It's just hilarious. When to kick it out to a team, teammate, when he needs, like, a little bit of encouragement. But you mentioned the effect of field goal percentage, 65.2, highest of his career. which is very, so this is how crazy his career was.

It's the next closest was 10 years ago. Do you know what team he was on 10 years ago? 10 years ago, that's, oh, Miami Heat. It was the last year of the Miami Heat. So we're in the ballpark next year where we're not even within the decade of his Miami run. That's how long and incredible his career was. It's just wild for me to think about it. Yovine also hit us with this stat.

he's averaging 26 points a game this year. There are five other players who have played 21 seasons in the league. Combined, they average 24 points a game. Wow. LeBron's averaging 26th. Insane. Insanity. How is he doing it, Rob?

I'll let you know when I figure it out. I'll let you know when I figure out how to like stand up without my back hurting, much less LeBron at 38 carrying a T. on his back literally every season. Dude, two weeks ago, I learned that I have planar fasciitis. It's tough. Wow. I was like, what is 30s?

What is this life that we're just not run or? No, I can run. It's just your foot is sore when you wake up in the morning. Yeah, life in your 30s really is just a slow accumulation of like rehab and recovery devices in your home I am finding. It's tough for all of us, but look, we got to do what we got to do to stay out there. You're not putting a million dollars into your body. in order to podcast.

Not yet. I'm trying. The cryo chamber. Yeah. But this is a good point to segue to our ad here. This next part of today's episode is presented by State Farm. Sometimes just one word or phrase sums up everything you're feeling. Here's one word or phrase reactions to LeBron James.

LeBron, Raymond James, Waz. What's your one word or one phrase reaction to what LeBron is doing this season? First of all is Raymond. Second of all, easy. Easy. He makes the game look easy, man. He really does. And also the reason why I think of easy

because my favorite LeBron quote was at the introductory sort of pep rally with the heat and everybody made fun of him. And he said, the game's going to be easy. And they started 9 and 8 and they had all these struggles to start. Every time the heat would struggle, I could just hear LeBron at that

freaking pet rally saying the game's going to be easy. So, yeah, him making it look easy this year. That's what comes to mind for me. Yeah, even when his team struggles eventually over time, it becomes easy. It becomes easy for him, for shooters, for bigs who are catching lobs, who only have to focus on defense. My reaction is, of course, like what else would we expect from the most unprecedented player in the league every year at this point he's doing something ridiculous?

Well, afraid. You said phrases were eligible. I don't even know if that qualifies as a phrase, but okay, go ahead. I just find it completely logical and explicable that at every age bracket, LeBrono would be doing something ridiculous, especially with the specifics of his game when you're that big, when you're that smart, when you read the floor the way he does, why wouldn't we think that he would average more points at his age than any player ever?

Why wouldn't we think that he would exercise a level of control over the game better than any player his age ever has before? So I don't have a word or phrase. I have a sound. And you're giving me grief. Eh, eh, eh. I think it's more sheep than goat, but as I went to do it, I actually don't know what a goat sounds like. But I don't know if you've seen the clips now.

There are fans literally beckoning LeBron from the crowd with goat noises. Bleeding. Is that what it's called? Yeah, I think so, right? Or is it more sheep's that bleed? We got to get our animals straight. We're a mess out here. Maybe our friends at State Farm could help, Rob, because when you get a new car or a new home,

the one thing you should say is, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm is there with the coverage you need for your car, your home, and even boats, motorcycles, RVs, and other things that matter to you. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you choose the coverage you need, with so many coverage options, it feels good knowing you could find what fits for you. And when you need ways to get help, State Farm gives you options there too. in person or on the phone with your local agent or on statefarm.com or their award-winning app, State Farm lets you do things your way. So when you need help protecting the things that matter most,

remember to say, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Cash in on bowling out this NBA season with Fandle, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet. That's $150 if your team wins. So on Wednesday night, there's a big slate of games going into the holiday. I really like the Boston Celtics over the Milwaukee Bucks to win that game. I know the Celtics have been struggling of late. They almost lost against the Grizzlies.

They did lose against the Hornets in a pretty embarrassing way. But have you heard best starting five in history, my friends? If Derek White is playing in that game, you got to go with the Celtics. And if you've been thinking about joining Fandul, there's no better time to join. The app is easy to use and there's a wide range of ways to bet, including quick bets, live same game parleyes, the parlay hub, and more. So visit fanduel.com slash ringer MBA and turn dimes into dollars this season. Fandual, official sportsbook partner of the NBA.

First online, real money wager only. $5.3 pregame money line wager required. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. All right. Let's transition to our team portion.

I would say the main. course here. Rob, why don't you go with yours? I would like to talk to you both today about the Miami Heat. And if you're wondering how the Heat have won

so much lately, especially in their last 10 games or so, I think it's 8 of 10, they've won now. How on earth, some like the patchwork lineups they've been rolling out, I've been working so well. I would point you mostly to our friend Bamatabio, who's just having an absolutely badass season. But really,

this team defense, which is doing something that I think you rarely see in the league and that Miami has done now over the last two seasons. They create a lot of turnovers and they commit very, very few fouls. It's very difficult to walk that balance, pretty unusual in terms of a defensive

profile, but somehow Miami pulls it off and I think a lot of it comes down to how many guys they have who are just intuitive defenders who know how to play the angles, who can leverage their size. They just really challenge you to move the ball perfectly. Right? Because if you're late, the pass as you try to swing to beat their pressure,

they're going to pick off that pass and they're going the other way. If you're off target with that pass, then by the time you recover it and get back into position, there are defenders already there and you're starting from ground zero all over again. I've just been so impressed with the way the heat are defending, and in particular the way they're defending in the regular season, which as we know historically is not always the case for them. This is a team that's up to playoff speed right now in mid-November

and not necessarily waiting for the playoffs to start. I love that they're playing with so much pride, honestly. Yeah. I'm still somebody who thinks if they were able to swing the dame deal, this thing would be off the charts. Explosive, yeah. Especially considering, you know, how Milwaukee is like sort of slowly but surely figuring things out.

I think it would have went way differently with Miami because just expulsion, just the entrenched culture that's already there. I just think it would have been a more seamless fit. But again, the pride that they're playing with Jimmy Butler comes to the introductory press conference is like, I still think we're going to the finals. Right. And they play like that. And their attitude is such. And so that's what's the coolest thing about watching it, man.

It's just the level of professionalism, the dedication to detail. Executing this kind of defense is not something you just show up and do. Like, it takes a high level of concentration. They're young guys. them having young guys contributing early where we're like, how are they going to replace Max Trues? How are they going to replace Game Finns?

Guess what? They just did it again. It's truly remarkable to see, man. And lately they've been replacing Tyler Hero, too, who's been out of the lineup. And, I mean, whether you want to loop that into the dame trade conversation or however you want to put it,

Tyler Hero, not the most essential piece of this team right now. I think they can function pretty well without him. And in fact, since they kind of changed up their starting lineup, put Duncan Robinson in there. And in particular put Haywood Highsmith in there for the defense, that's when things have really taken off. This is a team that, as currently constructed, seven guys averaging at least one steal.

There's not one ball hawk. It's everyone is a ball hawk. It's the system turning every player into a live threat. And that's, you know, from all the way from Jimmy and Bam, all the way down to Drew Smith. Like, guys are just making a big impact on the ball. Well, we got to talk about Duncan Robinson-wise, because our guy is officially.

back. We're talking close to 50, 40, 90 already again. Dude, and also, like, I guess in the playoffs last year, he discovered this niche NBA rule called the live dribble, and it's actually carried over into the season where he's not afraid to put the ball on the floor now, which just was not the case. Even before, you know, he started getting splinters in his ass from coach Spolstra, at the, at his best previously, he wasn't putting the ball on the floor. And now, Duncan Robinson's like, no, I'll take it to the rack. I'm going to, you know, fake out with, you know, little shoulder fakes and shimmies and dribbles.

Like, it's really cool to see. Again, we were laughing at that deal for a little wild now. Like, my goodness, through the heat fall in love with their own guys. And now he's rejustifying, you know, his contract. It's really nice to see. Hopefully, JJ let him podcast again. I will say the metrics for Miami are pretty middling. Like when you look at them on the stat sheet, they're like, oh, this is, I don't know if this is going to work out.

But they're the Miami heat. So this is definitely going to work out. They play so much above what they have. But I do think it's kind of borne out what I was expecting in the off season where it's like they have just enough depth to not only overcome the losses of Struis and Vincent, but like to overcome a hero loss. They just have a deep bench of enough guys to allow a bam to pop in this sort of way that he has. Yeah, Josh Richardson, back like he never left. He's back. Playing really good minutes for Miami.

Jaime Hakez Jr., like, just fits what they do so well. Very good player. I mean, they played Chicago. I was, you know, and he was matched up and embarrassing Pat Williams. And I was just like, is, I mean, is this guy already better than a Pat Williams? Is he already better than some of like the kind of standby wings who are plugged into lineups across the league? just a very, like, very savvy player who understands what he can and can't do and is increasingly understanding when to cut in Miami's offense and how to playoff of guys like Bam and Jimmy.

And the fact that this is this team is only going to get more comfortable with that over time that Duncan is only going to get more comfortable putting the ball on the floor as you said was and making plays out of those situations that, you know, Kyle, Kyle Lowry looks rejuvenated. But I think the role he's fallen into with this team, even as a starter, is perfect for where he is in his career. they just have a lot of guys who are clicking on all cylinders and are clicking in a way that contribute to each other's successes. I do love that they were on, what was it, a seven game winning streak. And of course, they lost to the Chicago Bulls in the midst of like chaos where Zach Levine doesn't want to be there. That's like the typical Miami thing, winning a ton of games that you didn't expect

because you weren't looking because you expected them to just kind of trot through a season. And then as soon as you poke up, you're like, oh, they lose to the worst fucking team in the NBA. It's just like the classic Miami experience. But they got the revenge. They got their revenge on the Bulls in the end. That's true. I want to talk about the team. I guess Orlando is south of Miami.

Is that how Florida works? No, it's north. No, central Florida. All right. We'll go with that. I'm going to go with the Orlando. UCF is in Orlando. Yeah.

Sure. Let's go for it. The Orlando Magic, 8 and 5th in the Eastern Conference. This team is basically, the early aughts Baltimore Ravens at this point because the defense is incredible, currently tied for

first with I believe the Timberwolves. We're recording this on Tuesday. There's just so much size and length and then they just bully ball you on the other end with Paulo and Franz, just getting a mismatch and putting you under the rim. But before

we do that, I have to do the most hipster shit. So not only did I pick the Orlando Magic, I'm going to say that the reason why this team has hope for staying in this range even. I think the second unit has been kind of incredible. Hell yeah, Justin. Hell yes. So Gary Harris is shooting the lights out.

I think he's over 50% from three. I think that's the type of bench guy that like every team in the NBA would love to have. Ingalls has been surprisingly good. And our guy, Jonathan Isaac, he has been saved. He's only playing like 14 minutes a game. but this dude has been absolutely incredible. His per 36 minutes, 16 points, 11 rebounds, 3.6 blocks, 2.6 steals. I don't think he can play more than he has been physically because of just all of the various ailments that he has.

And maybe he just needs extra time in order to go to certain rallies and whatnot. But like that dude has been incredible, Rob. And so like, I'm starting to wonder if the magic are vaulting into a next tier over some of these teams like the Bulls and maybe even the Raptors. Yeah, it's just awesome that we're 15 games or so into the season, and we're talking about the magic as one of those elite defensive teams, as one of those teams that really puts a lot of pressure on you to score and to, you know, kind of a fair companion piece to the heat, because this is another team that applies a lot of pressure.

And it's really interesting because I think, you know, the best defensive formulas in basketball are always well-coordinated, well-orchestrated size. How many big, active players can you get on the floor at the same time? time who know what they're doing. And Orlando has that, not only with the starters, but as you outlined, with your Jonathan Isaacs, with your Joe Ingalls, with Goga Bataze who stepped into the starting lineup and given them some good minutes while Wendell Carter's out, right?

They're getting a lot of size across the board. That was a tough one, by the way, for your Wendell Carter top 100 player pick that the fact that they haven't skipped a Bata. I still think Wendell Carter's good, but look, you can't clown what Goga Bataze is given them and what Mo Wagner's given them. those guys have played great. And they're using all of that collective size as a reason to be aggressive.

And we've seen some bigger teams, you know, like the Mike Boodenholzer's Milwaukee Bucks, for example. They drop Brooke Lopez. They play, like direct everything into the lane. Everything is steering into control. We're going to control these very predictable outcomes. I think defending that way has its virtues, and we certainly saw it,

especially in the regular season with Milwaukee over the years. But there are times where a defense like that can feel a little inert. and Orlando goes completely the opposite direction. They have all this size on the back line. And so they say, Gary Harris, Jalen Suggs, pressure, deny, get up. Knowing that you have all of that size behind you, take some risks, take some gambles. And as a result of that, you get things like we just saw in this game against Indiana, where, man, they absolutely wallop the Pacers.

And they did it mostly by doing something that almost no other team in the league has done so far, which has put the absolute clamps on. Tyrese Halliburton, picking him up full court, pressuring him, denying him the ball, playing to their strengths. I'm very impressed with how far this team has come defensively in terms of knowing what they have and how to leverage it. And for me, my favorite part about this is the ownership

and the authorship that Paolo and Franz have on the success, right? The Rockets are having success, but we know Fred Van Vleet and, you know, even to a lesser extent, Dylan Brooks, It's very integral to the success that they're having, and they're a big part of why this thing has turned around. It's not that Jalen Green isn't playing better or that Jabari Smith isn't turning into all-defensive-level defender.

It's that they're not the one sort of writing this script of this success. Whereas with Paolo and France and some of the other guys to a lesser degree, they're driving this success, and they're going to be the reason why Orlando is good in the future, right? And so that's what I think is the coolest part is that they're the ones steering this thing. I'm running out of metaphors, but you get the drift here. That's what's exciting, man. The young guys actually being handed some responsibility and rewarding that faith.

And so that's the coolest thing for me. Yeah, the shot has come around for Paulo, but I have to say, like just watching him call for a switch and then just driving someone as big as Ben Matherin, unfortunately, was, like, just into the basket and just, like, dunking or finishing over him. Like, the foul drawing is very real. And while it can make some of the games a little tough to watch, it's kind of a sludge factory on offense. Like, there aren't a lot of threes going up there.

But it's definitely effective. I think the interesting comparison point is honestly the thunder, if only because the thunder have so many electric dynamic athletes that they have all the space to operate. Whereas like it's the complete opposite where like Franz and Paulo are muscling you and you're going to leave that game with some bruises. And I think that's actually an interesting question now because with with Paulo and Czech kind of being the comparison point being one, two in that rookie draft, obviously Paulo one rookie of the year. Like I don't know, Rob, if you had to do it all over again, are you a Czech guy or are you a Paulo guy? It's tough, right? it's very tough especially because given the magic's vision of what this team is going to be

and really the NBA's vision of where the league is going in terms of getting as many big playmakers and creators on the floor at the same time palo is great at that in a very different way from chet but chet would be great at it too chet would be awesome on this magic team you could absolutely see it i just i like what palo gives them as more of a more of a definitive and accessible source of offense right now i think What Chet does is still pretty improvisational. It's still a little unpredictable, and that makes him very effective. But as a number one guy, that can be a little bit of a tougher sell.

So I think ultimately, these are probably healthier spots for them both, where Chet has a little bit more playmaking help around him, a little more space around him. And Paolo does have to kind of grit through the sludge factory you're talking about, but he's better equipped for it physically just because he came into the league as an incredibly physically strong player. That was immediately evident from the first game he played in the pros. What do you think, Wes? I just think Chet, you know how James Hardin says he is a system. I just think Chet is a starter.

He is a contributor. He is a positive impact, no matter where he plays, what the context of the team is, what he does in terms of defending and playing well off of others is that's transferable to any context. And so, you know, and that's going to tie into my take, but we're not into my take yet. We're not into my take yet.

I think we might have overlapping takes, Waz. I can't wait to see where that goes. I mean too. But on the other end of the spectrum, to get back to your original point, Justin, I do want to do a little highlight within that bench. Gary Harris, just having a really great season, the kind of vet who's kind of fallen out of the national,

NBA consciousness since he's been in Orlando but has put together now multiple good seasons for them and in particular this year giving him a lot of what they need and could you know if Orlando season doesn't go the way it wants maybe could give a contender a lot of what they need down the line and in fairness to Gary Harris

is not like he he's such a freaking effort guy motor guy high intensity guy he's been doing that it's just in previous seasons the shot just refused to fall and finally this year the shot is falling again so I'm really happy for him.

And when your when your smallest guy on the floor is often Gary Harris or Jalen Suggs or you know like basically a 6-4 guard of your choosing or Anthony Black who's even taller than that, I mean it just creates such an impressive front for this defense. It gives them a lot to work with out

on the perimeter where if you're a normal size point guard, you're going up against it every night just trying to get your passes around the guy in front of you. Yeah. Wise, you want to go with your team now? My team is the Philadelphia 76ers, man, and particularly what they're doing on offense. It's just remarkable to see. And this is going to sound controversial, guys, but it turns out coaching matters. We have talked

extensively on this show about Joelle's limitations as a passer. It turns out like your coach can put you in a position to succeed. Instead of catching a ball on the low block where defenders can use the sideline as an extra defender on you and cut off your sight lines and make these reads super hard for you. Turns out you can bring Joel to the top, to the high post, make the passes more obvious, involve him in more dribble handoffs, involve him in his own screening actions. Like, it turns out that your coach can have an effect on making your life and your job easier. And the fact that Nick Nurse who, look, man, he was, was hot.

We were obsessed with Nick Nurse when he first got to Toronto, the boxing ones and all of the crazy shit he did in 2019. And then, you know, some of the bloom came off of the rows a little bit for him in Toronto, especially on offense, exactly. And the fact that he's brought this level of creativity and diversification, I read somewhere that Philadelphia is isolating on half the amount of possessions that they were last year. That's insane, okay? Also, you lose an offense.

I wonder why that is. I'm just saying you lose an all offense first player like James Harding. You just losing off of your team and you're still second in the NBA and efficiency. That just speaks to an incredible coaching job. And again, again, to just compare in contrast, I don't want to, I read a very fun blog, Buck's team blog. I forget the name of that blog, but they were basically like

if Adrian Griffin don't shape up, he need to ship out. They were firing this guy, 10 games into the season, which that's what I go to blogs for, that level of spice. But no, but the concept being that Adrian Griffin comes in,

he made his bones in Toronto with Nick Nurse playing a certain aggressive type of defense. With Toronto's personnel, that made sense. To come into the buck situation and pretend that their defense needed some overhaul and not just tweaks,

just needed to be a little bit more malleable. To me, that's bad coaching. You know, Nick Nurse coming in and saying, no, how about I played in my personnel, make my personnel better at what they're doing on a possession by possession basis. It's just incredible to see, man. And I'm proud of the job that he's done over there

because, you know, we also predicted that the six years were going to be good this year. So, you know, selfishly, I like that we look smart. I do think it's just an amazing story that not only are the Sixers good, but considering everything you laid out was, how their offseason went, how their season started,

all of the James Hardin stuff hanging over everything, they've just become one of the surest things in the league on a nightly basis, the fact that they are going to execute. They are going to move the ball. Guys like, you know, Tobias Harris are not going to be boxed out of the offense. Kelly Ubre, when he returns,

we saw how valuable and how vital he could be toward the flow. it's not necessarily the most intuitive thing in the world to take a head coaching job and say, you know what this team needs is to unlock the DeAnthony Melton's of the roster, but it's honestly done them a ton of good to actualize all of these role players that they have, not just Tyrese Maxie, but every guy down the line who can dribble,

who can make plays, who can do things with the ball, who was kind of reduced and forced to just being a pure spot-up player. Like making Tobias Harris, a guy who sits in the corner, it flattened out the roster. It flattened out the team's performance. It centered everything and made so much of it on whether Joelle and James could deliver on a nightly basis.

And we're seeing now that this is a team that can win in a lot of different ways. Some of those ways involve Tyrese maxi scoring 50. Some of them involved Joelle Embed, putting up MVP numbers. Some of them are just like Tobias Harris going off and DeAnthony Melton going off and Furconcourkeme is coming in and having a great quarter. He's back. He's back? Better than ever.

Didn't get traded. Has he rescinded his trade request? And thank God they didn't, you know? This is a team that is now open to those sorts of possibilities where guys can have good nights, right? All the role players on this team can step up and have huge impactful performances because of the way everything is set up. Yeah, my favorite thing this season, honestly, one of my favorite things I should say is watching Tobias Harris realize, oh, I'm empowered to just muscle up these smaller guys they try to put on me from time to time. Like, he aggressively hunts these mismatches in a way he just was not empowered to do before. So that's just a cool thing to see from a guy who, I'm not going to lie,

I've called him overrated about one thousand, not overrated, overpaid about 1,000 times since he's signed that deal. So it's cool to see him getting busy this year. Well, I think the question is, does what they've done so far this season materially changed your outlook for them? Like, if we were to do title tiers, which we'll probably do it, point over the next couple weeks. Like, are you moving them up? Are you, are you keeping them at the same position? Like, was, do you, do you feel differently about them long term? You know, it's funny. I don't think they're more talented, i.e. better positioned in the playoffs, because it often just comes down to your players being better than the other side. It's not like scheming shit up.

But, man, I do think the addition by subtraction is just real. They're, their players, while being collectively less talented, individually, they're more optimized now. So I think that brings the output to a higher threshold than what it was with Hardin. And I think I've been converted to the idea that they're better. They're just better suited for the playoffs.

You know, we did a little segment with KOC last week. CIRIT was on the segment. She was like, no, I think they're going to be better in the playoffs. And I was like, really? but watching them for weeks since she said that, I'm now convinced of it, honestly. And we still have yet to see what moves they make

to even improve their roster further, how some of these new pieces they've already brought in will continue to kind of actualize what they're building there. Like, Nicholas Batum is a great example of this. He's exactly the kind of player if you had put Batum on last season Sixers. He's not that valuable, right? A guy who moves the ball is only going to do so much

when so much of your offense is pick-and-roll-centric, isocentric, power post-centric, based on one kickout pass. But as a connector in an offense that now is more free-flowing that gets more people involved, you could see him being a really important part of this roster. And we're just kind of starting to see

what he could offer them in the long term, much less what ultimately be in the playoffs. It's just crazy when you have second side actions, occupying potential help defenders. Imagine that. It opens up stuff for other people. It's just crazy what could have happened when you run an NBA off.

It's great. So I want to paraphrase or quote the great prophet Wasney Lambray and wonder out loud, has Joel proven enough in the playoffs? Like, have we moved past that conversation? I'm very excited about what the Sixers have done this regular season. I do find myself, and this season in particular, maybe because we're doing the podcast so often that we're giving more takes than usual. Like, I find myself putting too much emphasis on the now,

without having the step removed to be able to be like, hmm, I don't, I don't know. I kind of have the Sixers in the same place, but what they are doing in the regular season is remarkable. I will say that. I think ultimately, Justin, they're not going to succeed in the playoffs because, you know, Melton and Batum has stepped up.

It's going to be because Joelle was great. Yeah. Period. Like, they're going to go as far as Joel takes them as simplistic and, you know, TV talking headish as that sounds. That's what it comes down to. They're not going to succeed because these ancillary guys

have been better than they were in the past. But I think Maxie is part of that too. I think his ability to read the floor against... Don't you mean Max me? No, I do not. I don't accept it. That's a thing? I'm going to cut Waz's Mike if he tries that again.

Absolutely not. But he's going to be put to the fire in a different way. And Joelle is going to have a lot of pressure on his shoulders, there's no doubt about it. But the big difference between now and the postseason is defense is geared to stop you, defenses who are built to counter what you do. What do you do if you're Tyrese-Mexie against that kind of front?

What do you do against that kind of attention and pressure? Because we're starting to see teams prepare for him a little bit more over the course of the season, and rightly so, he's deserved that. But it's a different beast over seven games. And if there's any fault of Maxis as a playmaker right now, where he's racking up assists, he's playing very well, he's doing functionally what the Sixers need him to do.

There's nothing he's bringing to life offensively as a passer. That's all that complicated. That's all that like terribly nuanced. It's very much, I am the fastest guy on the floor and also a great shooter. And I'm going to drive at the rim and kick it out to the open guy. And in the playoffs, that guy's going to be a little less open. And the coverage in terms of who's open is going to be a little less clear. And that's what I want to see, you know, way down the line from Tyrese maxi.

but in terms of the first steps he could take to becoming the kind of guy who could break those coverages, he's showing good signs. He's showing good signs. He just has to prove it. Yeah. I will say that the top of the East is becoming mighty interesting. Like,

I don't know about the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs, but like as we get into the second round and then the conference finals, like when it's the Celtics versus the Sixers and the Bucks versus the Orlando Magic. Maybe we shouldn't have crowned the Celtics so early, huh? Bucks building some momentum too. they've started to look a little better, at least offensively.

I'm interested in these developments. Sue, you think we should crown the Pacers instead? I would love that. All right, why don't we get to the takes here? Rob, do you want to kick us off? Yeah, my take is, if I was picking right now, I would pick the Thunder to make the Western Conference finals. Wow.

Yes. That's big. That's bold. I think they're there. Wow. I think their young guys are there. Yeah. I think the reality too is outside the nuggets.

Look, I really like the way the Timberwolves are playing. Do I trust that team to keep it together over a long playoff run? I don't know just yet. And in particular on offense, an Anthony Edwards driven offense through multiple rounds, I kind of have more faith in what the Thunder are doing in terms of their driving kick action. You hate Anthony Edwards. I do not. This is simply not true.

No, but you do seem a little bit more skeptical of his decision making. I think you were earlier on that than a lot of people. And I kind of agree. I think it's very easy to watch Anthony Edwards on the great nights and think this guy is the second coming. Right. He's unbelievable when the shot is hitting, when he's looking fully explosive as a score, when he's getting all the way to the rim on a consistent basis. But in between those big nights, there's going to be two or three games on league pass where you're like,

that guy's not necessarily. the driving force of an offense in the way I would want him to be. And that can, you know, just a little something that sticks in your cross sometimes with his decision making that happens with a lot of young players, to be fair. I think what ends up happening

is that when somebody is able to make very hard shots, a lot of times people don't notice that they're not getting any easy ones in the process. And I think that's what's happening with Anthony Edwards. It's like the tough shot making is very enticing. But come on now, you can't get high off of that. You have to have more healthy habits in your shot diet. And that's what I would like to see from him.

But my thing about Oklahoma City, it's like they haven't even been in a real playoff yet. No. You know, like they did a playing game. And I think teams like the Lakers, like the Warriors, in that setting, I think would outsmart them in a series. I really do think that because young guys just, we just see it all. Over and over in the playoffs, young guys just end up just, you know, screwing the pooch all the time with mental errors. The aforementioned Timberwolves, good God. That Memphis series was, it was ridiculous the amount of mental errors they committed.

So that's why I'm not there on them yet, but watching them, the way that they play, the purpose with which that they play, I get it. And, you know, winning this early right now is nice. But yeah, in the playoffs, I'm not there yet, but I respect the take. I think some of those guys will need to prove it in those moments. You know, Josh Giddy in particular is going to be put under the microscope in a totally different way. He hasn't had the best scoring season, even though I think he's been good and healthy for their overall offense. What gives me confidence in them as a playoff performer right now, a couple of things that we've seen pop up throughout this season. One, the consistency of their offense.

This is a top 10 offensive team right now, the Oklahoma City Thunder, even with all their questions, even with everything they have to sort out. And in some of the big crunch time moments that they've had, Shea in particular is in such command of picking his matchup and just killing guards. You know, he was against the Warriors in particular the other night, just singling out, Steph, Chris Paul, bring me my guy in a screen, and I'm just going to shoot Midrangers right over the top of them, and they've got no shot.

They have no chance to contest against a guy who's that big. And the combination of what they're getting from Shea in these big regular season matchups, and what Chet has shown in those big regular season matchups, huge minutes, hugely important moments of these games, absolutely no fear in a young big and Chet Holmgren. I think that means a lot. And this is a team that I agree they're going to make mistakes, but you go temperamentally through their lineup.

It's like Lou Dort is not going to be daunted by those moments. Shea is not going to be daunted by those moments. Jalen Williams, not going to shy away from taking big shots when the occasion calls for it. I can live with some of the mistakes they might make if they're not scared of it. And I don't think that team is scared of it at all. I respect the take.

It's very spicy. It's like you put some like extra go-choo jang in like the punk and pie. And you're like, what is this? I didn't expect this from. Okay. Well, you can make it work, Rob. That's how much trust I have in your cooking skills.

But one thing I will say, I don't know if I'm there yet. I do worry about them against size. I think Waz is right. Like what happens against the Lakers where LeBron is just putting AD in the position to just dominate a chat. but also like the timber wolves for instance I don't know how they match up there

and they lost them last year in the play in the West seems wide open for that number two spy we're assuming that the Nuggets are going to anoint themselves as the number one like I don't know who who is going to be the second team here I assumed it was going to be a Lakers or a Sons

but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen at least in the regular season The Suns thing is a fucking disaster right now it's so fucking such a drag watching them too Like the kick in the balls of the Bradley Beal, not only being out for the game where they were supposed to finally come together, the big three, but then he was going to miss like three weeks in addition to that. Like, good God. I hate watching that team. There's also the effect where I think fewer people in general are watching the Sons right now because their guys aren't healthy. And it's really disguising how awesome Kevin Durant has been in trying to carry that thing, sometimes by himself, sometimes with one of his co-stars. But Durant has been awesome. It's just that team is in such a state.

And it's tough on a nightly basis for them just like problem solved their way through these games. Uh, wise, did you have an associate take to the Thunder? Yeah. Um, as you guys know, I was probably the most bearish person in NBA media on one Victor Wembeon. Here we go. Um, the start of the season happened. And I was like, oh, God, now I'm, I'm eating all kinds of crap and, and people are shoving it in my face. and whatever.

However, my take has rebounded in the last few weeks. Reborn so much so that I'm now willing to say, Rob Mahoney and Justin Verrier, that not only is Chet Holmgren better than Victor Wembeyanma right now, that's clear. Every metric, every stat, every game is just obvious. He's a way better player right now. He's going to have the better career.

He's going to be the better player. over the course of his career. All of that hype about the best prospects is Ty Cobb. B.S. Okay? Chet Holmgren is the true Savior. He's our true Lord and Savior, our God. The new King of the Prairie.

Sorry, Russell Westbrook. Chad Holmgren, man, I'm telling you, this guy is the one. He's the one. He's the one that we should be building monuments towards, and I'm standing on that. At some point we're going to need the ampersand-style shirt of all the players, Woz has listed, Victor Rubbenyama being the second coming of or the best prospect since.

You know, Carl Lewis, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron. I need the full shirt. So at some point we're going to need to get that mocked up. I'm with you there this season. But, I mean, we were just talking about it. But the take goes further than this season. And I appreciate that about you. There are levels to this.

This is a 15-year take, so really masterful work by you was. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's just the thunder is so much better position in order to emboldened and empower Chet in ways that the spurs are not. The spurs are like are a mess outside of Wembe. I mean, to the point where, like, Vassell is just in on the lineup still to this point. And he's really the number two on that team. They don't have a point.

I can't go there with you. But I think this year, yeah, it looks like Chet is now the frontrunner of rookie of the year. I'll say that. their circumstances are just so different. And we talked about this a little bit with Kyle Mann, too. I don't know that we did totally rehash that argument, but it's hard to compare them given what they have to work with and given what they're surrounded by.

Hard for most of us, a mere mortal takesman. Maybe not Waz, who said, not only is Jed better, he's definitively and obviously better to quote Waz. Yes, this year, respect the crowd. Yeah. I don't know if that's true or not. Chet has been awesome.

Absolutely awesome. You really can't fault anything about his play, given the role he's been slotted into. He's played it perfectly to a T. Could he do what Victor is doing in that role? I honestly don't know. Do you what I love about this take, actually, is that we brought up Chet in comparison to Apollo,

and you were so restrained. Like, you were just sitting on this waiting to jump on this. That's a master at work here, man. I compare him to a mere rookie of the year when you can compare him to the rookie that everyone has been waiting for. Chad or LeBron was? LeBron just a slight edge, for sure.

As 21-year-olds, actually, that's a lot. LeBron was already pretty much an MVP damn there at 21, which is why, like, every comparison of Bron is stupid. Like, anytime we do it, it makes no sense. Like, the shit that he did in 07 was completely

ridiculous. But, hey, man, listen, I just want people to get more excited about the Chetster and the Chet Train. That's all I'm trying to do. There's enough for, oh, he's a unicorn and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, he's getting, we're doing it. Nike's going to start a whole camp, and we're doing it. We get it with Victor. And I'm happy for him.

But I need people to start respecting the Chet situation a little bit more. And so that's all I'm doing. I'm just waving the flag for my boy. And, you know, the funny thing is I remember, which sounds hilarious now, but there was a point where we were arguing about Christaps for Zegis and Carl Anthony Towns very early on in their career. And like, yo, who's better? Who would you rather have for the next 10 years? Like, this question is like so inconsequential these days. I don't think that's going to be the case with these guys, man.

I really do think they're going to be very consequential players. and, you know, we're going to be thinking about them in tandem for a long time. Who won that, by the way? Did Christoph's her cat? Did they both move? I guess. Carl Towns got a, Carl Towns got another max. Yeah, he got that bad.

Chris has didn't. So his bank account won. Chrisavs very good. But was just to push the time horizon out even further. You know, not only can this be a 10-year take or a 15-year take. 24 years from now when the NBA is doing its hundred greatest players in NBA history, list. Will Chet Holmgren be on it? Absolutely. He's going to be, yeah, he's going to be, he's going to be part of the next

wave of guys. Lock it in. I'm talking about at a certain point he's going to surpass SGA an importance on the team. Like, I'm telling you, this guy is it, y'all. Pay attention to this. You heard it here first. Come back to us in 25 years if you disagree. This is so bold. This isn't even like a dessert. This is like a, wise just jumped up with another main. Like we just got through the Bosam. He's like fried chicken motherfuckers. We're doing this again. I mean, listen. Listen, my guy

my guy was absolutely never compared to Red Grange. And so I got to do that level of hyperbole on his behalf. Oh man. We need that shirt. So I guess my take is somewhat connected to this. If only because of the rookie

year of the year conversation, the rookie year conversation specifically we were having with Kyle Mann to which when I brought up like, oh, what do you think about rookie of the year and like what do you prioritize? Rob just flatly was like, we're not talking about rookie of the year. Do you remember this? Yeah, we're not. My take is basically we should be able to talk about awards whenever we want. The policing of like when we're allowed to talk about and the, and all this other stuff

has gotten too far. I am here as a proponent of free speech just wanting to say that we shouldn't put shackles on what we're allowed to talk about in the discourse. And then if you want to talk about MVP after five games or 10 games

or whatever, you should be allowed to do that. Let freedom ring. Let's talk MVP once a week at this point. I am here for it. You know why I respect this take because we spent so much, not we, but certain people in the media on Twitter

spend so much time being like, well, are the Mavs going to put themselves in position to keep Luca and blah, blah, blah, even though that's five years down the line? Or are the Pelicans going to keep Zion happy even though this motherfucker can never play? Okay, like at least MVP rookie of the year is concentrated on the games here and now.

Okay, at least we're concentrating. concentrating on play on the floor right now. And so I love that take, Justin. Also, obviously, Wenbiyama is not the rookie of the year. That's Chet. MVP right now, I could be talked in the Yokit or MB. This is really an impassioned defensive free speech, Justin. You, the editor of a prominent website, a voice on a podcast who literally no one can stop you from saying who your MVP pick is.

even me. I'm glad you really stood up for this in this moment. It's a tough time for guys like you. It's also just connected to this seems like there's a very specific type of person who's very into like the NBA needs to get back to selling the game and yada, yada, yada. And I don't necessarily disagree. And I think Adam Silver in particular and the NBA has been trying to move things in that direction, whether or not that's a direct response to some of the persnickety Twitter discourse. I'm not so sure and it also like assumes that people know what they're doing in marketing and like like that that is a complete science that that this problem actually needs to be solved but like it's just like online has just become so obsessed with like the particulars and the nuance of like the slob wizard

whatever and like I love that stuff we just talked about a ton of it like we talked about the Orlando magic it's just like it's fine to have normal basketball conversations guys like talk about who's the best who who's like the worst and like who should be. be MVP, whatever. Like, let's get back to the roots, you know? Let's make basketball discourse great again. Oh, boy. You're really putting yourself in a corner on this one.

I've been thinking about this a lot. This has just been a long, simmering thing that I just needed to get out. Yeah, I think, honestly, it's all well and good so much as the conversation doesn't always get reduced to that, right? Like, can we have a conversation about Deere and Fox or LeBron James that isn't, oh, well, is he good enough to be the MVP? Can we have a conversation about a good ascendant team that isn't, oh, are they good enough to win the title? Like, those are parts of the conversation, but the fact that every conversation seems to drift that way, including the ones we have often.

Like, I think that's what people are pushing back against. They just want to talk about everything, everybody. Rob, it sounds like you were not a fan of the race war that broke out during the MVP conversation of last year. Am I hearing that, right? You weren't a fan of that discourse? Who was a fan of that discourse? Was his hand, yeah, dear listener. All right, why don't we wrap it there?

By the way, next week I think we're going to do one month awards. So, strap in listeners and... You were just priming us for your agenda. Let's go, let's go. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Hope you enjoy your commutes and your time with your family. Thank you specifically to Isaiah Blakely, our family member, our head of the table. Thank you to Ben Cruz for helping us out here.

We'll be back on Sunday because we worked through the holidays, God damn it. Can I cut in for a second, Justin? Sure. It's just not lost on me that every week we get to roll in here and talk hoops and bullshit around and make dumb jokes. And really, I get to spend time with you guys and Isaiah and Ben and Jack. And, like, that's an absolute joy. And it's one of the highlights of my week every week. And I'm especially thankful for our little group chat family

and for all of our extended group chat family, dialing us in as they, you know, jump on a plane or drive off to see their family and friends. It means a lot. And I would be remiss to let this moment pass without saying it. Getting a little emotional there. My eyes is literally watering. That's a beautiful thing to say.

And obviously I echo all of those sentiments. Love y'all. Love working with y'all. Shouts to everybody that tunes into us every single week. shouts to all the people who are just like, you know, Waz, you shouldn't have said, made that dick joke, but also, Varyer is a maniac.

Like, I just love it. We're thankful for our haters. I love the community. I'm not that thankful for those guys. But the people that watch in earnest and enjoy us. Yeah, I like you guys. But yes, I echo what Rob is saying. Thanks everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Sunday. We'll talk to you. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia.

Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 533-42 in Arizona. 1-888-889-777-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-8009 with it in Indiana. 1,800 522470470 or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas, 1-877770 stop in Louisiana. Visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Visit 1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia or call 1-800-522470 in Wyoming. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line, MA.org or call 1-800-3275050 for 247 support in Massachusetts.

or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.