The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Potluck! Plus, Are We Possibly Witnessing the Greatest Player Ever. | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Thanksgiving week is here and Justin, Rob, and Wos have a little NBA potluck. The Clippers have ripped off five straight wins. Are the Clippers actually better without Kawhi? The Bucks have won six out of seven. Could they challenge Boston and Cleveland in the East? Plus, are we actually witnessing the greatest player ever and taking it for granted? The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Producer: Clifford Augustin Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get you. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting

right in the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me Rob Mahoney, Big Was. One pod before the holiday break. Gentlemen, this is usually where you bore us with a bunch of stuff about what you're making. So I give you the floor. What are we batch cocking. What are we baking? What are we grilling? What are we broiling? What are we roasting, Rob? I want to hear Waz first. I feel like Waz always really lays it out. I want to know the spread. I want to know what has come to your mind in terms of how to make this Thanksgiving a truly unique experience. So I'm going to disappoint you guys this year. I'm not making anything. I'm blessed in the sense that I'll be here in L.A. But one of my friends is hosting. And let's just say he makes

a lot more money than I do, and he's just going to have a catered. Oh, that's the move. Yeah, and so I'll just be bringing my favorite wine to the festivities and imbibing on catered bites as well as, you know,

my favorite Willamette Valley Pinot Noir. And that's it. That's what I'm doing for Thanksgiving. Although for Friendsgiving, I had a Friendsgiving last night. Yeah. For which I contributed a mashed potato. Okay.

Which what I did was obviously I did use the russet potatoes. I know some people are Yukon Gold. I do the russet. I actually put some of the skins in there because I wanted to have a little bit more texture. Infused it with the milk that had rosemary garlic sort of as you brought it up to temp. Yes. And so it was like an infused milk and that's what you used to make it a little bit creamier. you know, and get the garlic and rosemary herb.

And they obviously salt and pepper. People seem to like it. That was it. I mean, mashed potatoes can do no wrong. Someone in the ringer recipe slack, I want to say it was just in charity. If it wasn't charity, forgive me, whoever recommended this, pointed me toward putting marscapone cheese in mashed potatoes. A lot of people do cheese with mashed potatoes.

I've never been a cheese potato guy, but I'm not against it. It really worked out for me. I got to say, but Justin, to answer your question more broadly, we're going by the book this year, which is to say the book that I have rewritten to exclude turkey and focusing primarily on prime rib, we're hitting a lot of the greatest hits. My question for you guys is, as I am formulating my Thanksgiving menu, how many desserts is the right number of desserts for a Thanksgiving spread? Obviously, you need a pumpkin pie. I think that's essential. But you also kind of want a chocolate thing, I feel like. I would say three. Three. Three.

plus or minus one, I think, is the move. I mean, two is not right. Really? I think two is essential, but three is like you have too much and you want options and you also want leftovers. Oh, for sure. I mean, the leftovers are a critical part of the whole process. And because

you pigeonholed into the damn pumpkin pie, I like the idea of having three because the pumpkin pie thing. Pumpkin everything in the fall and all of that. I don't, I don't do the pumpkin. I don't play with pumpkin. I'm done with that way. I'm done with this podcast. I'm out. I'm going the opposite way. I want pumpkin pie outside of Thanksgiving. Like, I want it November 1st. I want it December 23rd. I also want it July 4th. How about that? Give me all the pumpkin all the time.

Dude, somebody brought the freaking sweet potato marshmallow thing that people do. Yeah, yeah. I don't, I'm out on that. Yeah, it's fine. I don't want to get into that holy war. That's a whole thing. I was watching something before we came on instead of bringing a wine perhaps was, maybe a de jestief, you know? You're full of pie. You want something a little sweeter, but you don't want more dessert.

De jest thief. There you go. Like that. We had a few of those in Italy this summer. Did you? I like that idea, yes. You're just really bringing the sophistication today, Justin. I feel like, you know, wine is, wine is great, but also wine is basic.

Dja Steve, you're really standing out amongst your, uh, the kind of people that was is apparently hobnobbing with. That's right. Listen, if you're in the Willamette Valley, uh, just drinking those pinos week after week, you got to go to the next level. That's right. I was having one yesterday, in fact. So, look at you.

Uh, I hear on that. Yeah. Um, all right. Let's get to the matter at hand here. Our own NBA potlock, as we do every year before. Thanksgiving, one team, one player, one take for all of us. We're going to start with the team portion in this round. And we're going to start with one of my picks, which is the Dallas Mavericks, a team that is quite confusing as of right now. They lose four. They win four. They lose last night.

Luca's out. It's just kind of been a slower start than I think we were all expecting going into this season. I think we thought they would be with a bullet, one of the best teams in the Western Conference. On the one hand, Rob, they lose those four games by a combined eight points. You would think that a team with Kyrie and Luca will sort out the clutch mess and all that sort of stuff. On the other hand, without Luca last night against the heat, they lose against that one in overtime. They probably should have lost in regulation because Derek lively loses Jimmy Butler going to the rim, should have been called for a foul. And so I'm stuck in the middle here where I think the Mavs are a good team and a lot of the data suggests that they're a good team,

but they're actually losing the type of games I'd expect them to win more than anybody else. Yeah. I think coming into this year, I expected them to be a better regular season team because they were so hurt at the beginning of last year and because they obviously made the in-season trades that significantly improved their front line. But maybe what I forgot about and what I was glossing over a little bit was the fact that Jason Kidd as a regular season head coach is sometimes just out there doing shit, like just throwing lineups at the wall, just like letting Spencer Dinwiddie ride for as long

as he wants to ride. Sometimes it's just kind of like seeing what works and seeing what combinations might make sense. And there is, maybe exploratory is giving it too much, too much credit in terms of the way that the Mavericks play, but they do try things. And they do have a different gear. And clearly

for whatever reason, they are just like not aligned and quite right at this point in the season. There's just been too many games where like the effort isn't quite there. for the first couple quarters, where they don't fully look coordinated for the first couple quarters. They find it in the end. And there have been bright spots on this team, certainly in bright and great wins, as you outlined, Justin. I think this is a good team that right now is playing really uneven and sometimes actively, like, not good basketball. And that's not what

I expected from this talent base, to say the least. I'm actually reminded of a Trey Young quote of all people, which it was the regular season after they, gone on their Cinderella run to the conference finals in the East, and they were kind of underperforming, which they ended up underperforming for the season. And he told the media, he was like, look, man, like, after you play in the postseason in big second round games, in big conference finals games, it's hard to get super pumped for these early regular season slogs. Like, it's, like, I can't trick myself into treating these games as do or die when I've so recently been an actual do or die, high intensity games on the biggest stages in our sport.

And I think that quote applies to what's happening in Dallas right now with their finals run with a team that's, you know, basically intact from that run. And they know what it takes to, you know, reach the highest echelons of the sport. and I think it's been kind of a malaise, you know, on a team-wide basis, but even individually, it feels like Luca hasn't become fully engaged yet. Like, he turns it on in fourth quarters where he starts yelling and cursing and spit flying out of his mouth at opposing fans, but he's not maintaining it for full game.

So I think it's just a sort of cruise control kind of thing. And there's enough veterans on this team that I think that's kind of legitimate. Whereas the Hawks was a bunch of young guys and it's like, all right, you flukely beat the Sixers, like, what are we doing here? Like, you know, the maps have Kyrie. They have Lukos and MVP candidate. Like, I think it's a little bit more legitimate, but like you guys, I would like to see them, you know, turn into this year's version of a team that's going to make another

finals and conference finals run. Yeah, I do think even the best of times toward the end of last season, they were still figuring things out because they made pretty dramatic radical changes to the lineup. And I think going into this season, everyone was hoping that they would kind of hit the ground running because they found who they are in the finals, in the playoffs. Even Derek lively, a rookie at that point, seemed like he was ready to hit another level. In their defense, I would say that they did change enough on the fringes that they are working in a bunch of new rotation players, Najee Marshall, Quint Grimes, all that sort of stuff. They got a full season of this big man rotation with Gafford and Lively. you have Gaffert, who's the veteran, lively is the up-and-comer.

Like, how does that really sort itself out? And one thing to their benefit is I think they're starting to find things that will work for them down the road. I think Quentin Grimes has been very good. He's a guy who I thought worked for them because he is pretty programmatic. He is a catch-and-shoot guy who will play defense. I thought he's showing a little bit more off the bounce than I was expecting. He had one play where he attacked a close-out against Hero and found Lively on a short lob. And I was like, what was that?

you know like that's something i didn't expect for him and if he keep doing more of that i think that helps them down the road lively in particular another guy who despite the the misstep against jimmy um he just will switch out onto the perimeter and i'm like holy shit this guy looks incredibly comfortable out there he reminds me a lot of what i think a lot of us wanted from willie callie stein originally like that guy was supposed to be this what a callback five juggernaut game wrecking defender i think lively can be that but but it has been slower than what we're expected. So I think to their benefit,

I think this will help them down the road more. I think if you're worried, Rob, it's more that, you know, the defensive lapses you see. And even especially from Luca, it just really hits what you worry the most about them is when they need Luca to be a defender. He's not there.

He co-s through these regular seasons, despite the fact that for the past, what, five years we predicted him to win MVP. It's like it really just hits the one thing you're worried the most about. And so I don't know, whether to give that too much credit, credence or not enough? I'm almost not worried yet.

Like, I think it's fair to look at the Mavericks performance to far and be disappointed. There's a lot to be disappointed, especially on a game by game basis. In terms of chronic problems that are actually going to limit them in a playoff setting, I just don't see it as of yet. Like, I think they have limitations as any roster does.

Like, you know, they're finding out as the Warriors did what it's like to live and die with Clay Thompson's jumper sometimes in terms of his minutes. They're figuring out, you know, as you said, like for as great a defender as Derek lively can be, the fact that he is still a young player and can still be spotty at times in terms of his reads and his reactions to things.

Like, they have all of these elements that they're trying to incorporate, and I believe in those elements. And I believe in, like, Kyrie, I think, has had a really strong season overall. Luca has not. If Luca plays well, the Mavericks are really, really good. He's not playing well, and they're still winning a lot of games,

at least enough to split against really good teams in a lot of these cases. So it's odd because you're right. They are dropping the games that you would expect them to win and vice versa sometimes. But ultimately, like, I like the overall shape of this roster. I like what Najee Marshall and Quentin Grimes, as you alluded to, I brought to this group. I just think their team makes sense.

And I think overall, there's still enough, like, evidence to suggest that it will. Yeah. And last year, when they ended the season on a hot streak and got a bunch of people excited and with all the momentum they had going into the playoffs, they were a top five, top three, I believe defense after the All-Star break or something like that. Like they finished the season on a defensive tear and prove themselves to be one of the best more elite units

in the entire league. And obviously that's just not been the case to start the season. And I think their defense will be able to pick it up and become, you know, closer to the version that we saw last year both to end the regular season and in the playoffs, which to me is where they kind of made their hay, you know, stifling OKC and their other playoff opponents. And so that to me is where I think it has to pick up

if they're going to completely take off outside of Luca, you know, just taking things more seriously. All the indicators suggest they're a very good team, top 10 team, like they're top 10 in virtually every unit. Yeah. The problem has literally been just the close. game. And it's just so bizarre. Again, they lost those four games in that four game losing streak by a combined eight points in total. And it forced them to have already a film session in the locker

room after the Utah loss. The Utah loss was abysmal. That was really bad. And I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when you lose the Utah in such dramatic fashion. But it seemed a little early for that. But I think we're all in agreement that I think they're fine. We just would like to see them be more than fine because this is a team I think would be in the upper echelon the top five of the league if they can get things right and it's not that much to get things right you're saying so in potluck terms what are the mavericks to you justin are they like a weird 70s style like jello salad that you're just showing up with me like here it is i guess if the the teams are the mains uh maybe they are the turkey where it's like all right like it's a staple you know you can't go wrong with it but

Is anyone super excited about them right now? Probably not. Yeah, that's fair. Okay. What about, who wants to go next? You want to go with your ham? Or what, do you have here? You know what?

It is a little bit more of a ham. It's a harder your set. It's a heavier lift. It's burlier than you might expect sometimes. It's the Los Angeles Clippers, winners of five straight games. Now, basically tied with the Lakers for fourth place in the Western Conference.

I didn't see that coming. I didn't see it coming that the Clippers of a better point differential than not only those Lakers, but the wolves and the sun's quality Western Conference teams, they're just doing it. And I have to say the formula is exactly the same that it's been all season. It's not exactly a surprise given what their personnel is. It's a lot of James Harden.

It's a lot of Norm Powell when he's healthy. And it's one of the most stifling, flexible defenses in the entire league. They're not always fun to watch because of that. They can turn like really slow games down and really stymie opponents. But damn if it isn't effective. And I just didn't think that this collection of players, which is a bunch of role players we really like, would be able to operate at this kind of level. And we'll see if they can over the course of the regular season. But 18 games in, I think they're absolutely worth celebrating.

Yeah, I thought the same thing when I watched and beat the Golden State Warriors when I was in the building at Intuit Dome last week. And what I noticed is definitely their connectedness on defense, like these. These guys do play on a string. It sounds cliche. But that's how you make up the difference when you don't have talent. It's effort. It's execution. It's attention to detail.

And the clippers are nailing that, man. And, you know, a lot of it just feels unsustainable. Like I'm watching Norm Powell make five of six threes and a big game against the Warriors. And I'm like, can he just do this over the course of 82 games? guess, you know, even Hardin, like, when you're watching it, he's not beating anyone, he's not getting past anyone. When he does actually get to the cup, like, he's barely any elevation. He has no hops whatsoever anymore.

It's all being glued together with just guile and smarts and veteran know-how. But, you know, these guys do play hard, man. They're one of the hardest playing teams, I would say. And two things that I will take away from seeing them in person last week. One, Jeff Van Gundy is very invested in these games. It's just crazy to watch him stalking the sidelines with Tyloo. Tai Lu has apparently just empowered this guy to be the co-head coach. And he's super into what's happening right there.

And that was jarring. And two, I want to thank the Intuit Dome, but making me a first-time winner. Wow. at the stadium. So they did the thing where the card sort of parachutes down from the ceiling. Yeah. And this thing is coming right at me. And the older dude who was in his, like, he was in his 80s, y'all, in his seat right below me.

He reached up and I just snatched this thing from him. And it was a card for free deluxe chicken. sandwich from the great people at Chick-fil-A. So this is the first time I've ever won anything in stadium. Another thing happened that game, like one of these dudes... Hold on. Hold on. Before we get into other things, you just ripped a deluxe chicken sandwich out of the mouth of

an 80-year-old man. Out of his mouth, yeah, metaphorically, not out of his hand because I just snatched it before his hand could even touch it. Well, yeah, he can't move. Would you expect him to jump for that thing? It was tough. It was tough. Elderly, I got beat out.

It's tough, man. Sorry about that. that. But yeah, and like not long after that, some dude launched a freaking t-shirt at me. Ooh. And I got my right hand on it and it hit my hand so freaking hard. It just smashed and ricocheted two freaking three seats down to the left of me and those people got the t-shirt. So all in all, just an eventful night at Into a Dome. Steph Curry Magic, you know, Clippers, you know, defense. Norm Powell on a freaking heater. And I, I, I'm winning my first ever parachute launch at the Intua Dome.

And losing your first T-shirt canon encounter. That's the karmic balance of the universe if I've ever heard it. It's tough. Did you buy any like chips by scanning your retina? I did. I did buy them. I've checked my app and I still have not been charged. If there's any Intuit Dome reps out there, please charge Waz for some chips.

It was a cheeseburger And it was a cheeseburger and a piece A surprisingly good cheeseburger Honestly It is a cool building I enjoy the vibe in there The wall is legit Good atmosphere

I think it's tough With some of these new arenas Where some of them feel like A little overly sterile The Intuit Dome feels like It's from the future Which I think battle some of that sterility A little bit

Yeah you feel like you've been transported Into a Jetsons episode Definitely For the kids out there That was a futuristic cartoon when we were a kid. Perhaps aliens,

you know? Maybe that's a reference people get nowadays. Is that still dated? Well, I guess you have Romulus going, so hopefully they're at least familiar with that. But you know what? The Clippers are delivering it. I think the worst case scenario for a new arena like that is that the team comes in and just stinks it up.

Kauai Leonard hasn't played a game yet. It was a huge wild card coming into the years. This team even going to be watchable. And I think they play a style of basketball that especially in the arena, if you are a Clippers fan is really exciting. Do we want Kauai back? Let's relax. Do we want Kauai back?

So here's my question. Here's my question. I do think they're winning because what they've done is they've traded starship for shit that just wins regular season games. You don't have to deal with the consternation of whether Paul George is playing whether Kauai is playing. They just seem like they have a very solid floor. And I think that's defense, first and foremost,

fifth defense in the NBA. I think Chris Dunn. We need to talk about Chris Dunn because. Oh, yeah, we do. Strapping dudes. Him and Derek Jones Jr. together has just been pretty much a revelation for this team. If you look at any of the two-man combinations, it's like put Chris Dunn with literally any other player on the roster, and it's going to be good because he just does so many helpful things.

Like, you don't know what he does offensively. That's like elite. But he just checks off a lot of boxes so that he can wreck shit on the defensive end. And then on the other side, just like Zhu being huge and leveraging the fact that he's huge. So, like, they go to him in post-up situations. Hardin is a good partner for him. And I think you've seen him go to him more because he just has to find other guys. And so, like, they're big. They play defense. And then when they need to, Hardin and Powell do enough offensively. Like, we talked about Hardin. Like, offensive numbers are pretty startling. Like, they're really bad. But he just, he can orchestrate still. And so this leads to the Kauai part of it where it's like, if they just insert Kauai into the Dun or Derek Jones spot, like can they just, you? compete on a higher level. I don't know because I assume Kauai, if he does come back, will be some hobbled version of what he is,

and we'll go through the whole rigmarole of like, is he playing back to backs? Is he up to speed? And like, how many minutes is he playing? That will continue on for another two months until we get to the playoffs. Then ultimately he'll be out in the first round. But I think there's like a clear slot for him to join them and maybe hit the ground running.

But I've been through this so many times, Rob, where I have to stop myself and say like, just put cold water all over myself because I don't think it's going to happen, but you see the theory. You see on paper that it could. The problem with that is we know this is the ultimate team that they're going to have,

actually have on the floor. Kauai's going to come back and play for a little bit and be gone again because that's what he always does. And so the fact that they're playing with their real actual team right now and playing well, I think that's an encouraging portfolio. point because this idea that Kauai is going to come back and finish off and play 50-something games, I find it to be laughable.

It's just, how can we think that that's going to happen at this point? He's not going to save anything. And on the other side of that, look, the Clippers have played really well. I think they're deserving of this spotlight. You don't need to worry about disrupting the very fragile equilibrium of the Clippers by withholding Kauai Leonard. Like, they're playing to compete. And I think Kauai Leonard, even when he's,

is somewhat limited is physically competitive. And he does fit inside the style of what they're trying to do. Like Justin, as you were reeling, like, reeling through the attributes and kind of like, what has made this team successful, one of the things that stuck out to me is like,

you, you talked about them as being a big team. And it's like, they are and they aren't. Like, they're, they're really long and they're versatile in that way. But they are a team.

It's mostly zoo. It's most, it's the kind of center who you will see, even very traditional fives match up against him. And he just absolutely. bodies them. The Sixers game against Yavaseli. He's just so much bigger and he could just post up again.

Go-Gabatse. These really traditional bigs will try to guard him and just have absolutely no shot. That's legit size. Everything else is mostly guys playing above their weight and fighting above their weight in lots of ways. The one exception to that, in a sense, is Derek Jones Jr., who is a really good rangey defender and a decent

finisher inside when he can get some momentum, clearly a great dunker. But historically not a great rebounder, right? Like, not a guy who's battling for the war. He's a, we'll fight for loose balls. He's putting in the effort. He's just very slight. And the way the clippers make up for that to be the best damn defensive rebounding team in the entire league is mostly through Zoo, but also through guys like Hardin and Chris Dunn, like these guards who are getting in the mix and coming out with balls and making that balance work. And so there's there is this overall shape of a team where, yeah, Hardin, because he has the ball in his hands a lot, is kind of the de facto star of this

team in a sense. And Norman Powell, because he's popped so much the season, is getting and deserves a lot of credit. But if you told me to figure out what the heart of the Clippers is, or who is kind of bringing that to the table, to me, it's the sort of interchanging trio of Zoo and Chris Dunn and Derek Jones Jr. Those guys embody what the Clippers are and why they're winning. And the fact that you're getting above 500 basketball from that is a really remarkable thing. Yeah, they're also third in rebounding percentage overall, and they're only 0.2 percentage points from first. So, this is a very good rebounding team. I think you're right. It's like, you look at all the fundamentals and it's like, what do you want from a good team? Like, I don't need to break out the

four factors or anything right here. Yes, you do. They do kind of check those boxes, right? And it's just like, oh, how is good basketball played? It's like they kind of do do all of that. And so I do turn the ball over, clean your glass, you know, get back on defense. And so can Norm downshift back to a six-man roll? And Kauai jumps into that starting lineup and they don't skip a beat defensively. And he can maybe just be more of an offensive player. Again, I see it. But what's going to happen is Kauai is going to come back later than we think.

He's going to play well. We're all going to talk ourselves into this despite ourselves. And then he's ultimately going to disappoint us. And so I don't want to do it. it, but I think it's going to happen. I think he's going to play and they're going to look good because the other part of this is they don't have their draft pick. And so that's going to go to OKC. And so they have every incentive to be halfway decent here. And so I could see them being playing team in the way that like I think a lot of people thought that they might bottom out this season despite the fact that

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Since we're talking about draft picks, should we talk about one of your team's who has no draft picks for the foreseeable future and yet finds themselves playing particularly well. Yeah, man, it's the Milwaukee Bucks. And it's another quote. It's actually a godfather this time. It's like, you know, just when I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in. Never heard that one before. Is that new?

Winners of four in a row, six out of seven. Obviously, the schedule has sort of opened up for them. that they're getting to play weaker opponents. And I text you guys, basically the schedule until January 6th. Yeah. A lot of cupcakes on there. A lot of get right, get healthy against teams.

And it's two things that I want to flag about what's happening. One, Doc de-emphasizing the olds and letting A.J. Green and Jackson Jr. get some goddamn run. Thank you. Yes, young guys are allowed to play. Young guys do have strengths. They're athletic and energetic and provide a pop and a boost to an older, more aging lineup to give them some sort of, you know, energetic balance.

Like, it works. And it's nice that Doc has done that. But too, man, you know, at the end of that Pacers game, and let's face it, the Pacers aren't the best defense in the history of mankind. No, they're not. We know that. But what I liked again, and I've talked about with the Bucks' process, and they spammed that Dame and Janice pick and roll in crunch time in ways that I've never

quite seen them do before. And it wasn't just Dame and Janus interplay on Janus screening for Dame. It was Dame coming in the screen for Janus, ghost cut to a flare screen, to, excuse me, a flare three, open three. It was like, oh, there's some, like, dynamism happening here. real offense happening here. So it's like it's the nuts and bolts of giving different guys, younger guys an opportunity,

which Doc is always hesitant to do. It's, I think the offense, not having to be so yonis, you know, dictating the pace. And so he can free himself up for game winning blocks at the end of the game. You know what I mean? And so it's the process that I like. It's the schedule opening up.

and I like that the young guys are getting reps. It's nice to see them finally putting something together. Justin, I think where I'm having trouble is the bucks always look different when it feels like they actually have enough live bodies out there and when their role players are actually giving them good minutes. And I'm with you, Waz, like taking Pat Conantin out of the mix, finding more minutes for AJ Green. Like those are real differences in terms of their play style

and real differences in terms of the on-court product that I think I've had a really positive result on the team. how much of this is just like Gary Trent Jr. being back from the dead. How much of this is like you get the good Bobby Porter's game instead of the bad Bobby Porters game. I'm struggling to find the signal or the noise in here and figure out which is which. And another thing with Chris Middleton being out, no idea, no timeline. Apparently the last time he was on the court, I guess he looked really rickety. And so the timeline keeps getting pushed back further and further.

then you wonder what he's going to add, man, because, you know, we talk about what Drew Holiday used to do defensively. But there was a time, folks, where Chris Middleton was a defensive player, too. Not that he was like, you know, all-world anything, but he was more than competent. And so was Grayson Allen, right? And so, like, there was a time. Bracin Allen was pretty decent on the perimeter. I'm not saying he was great.

He was certainly better than Gary Trent Jr. We can say that. There are levels. There are levels. We can say that. Okay. I wonder if Chris Middleton, if he still has it in him to move his feet on defense, man. And so that's a question mark that still lingers for me.

But like, man, if Damianis could get it together and form the basis of a real elite dynamic offense, you know, basically complimenting their two very unique skill sets. Yeah, man, that's something to be excited about. And again, they get to practice this against the likes of the Wizards and the Brooklyn Nets and the Chicago Bulls. It's great for them anyway. That is ultimately, I think, going to be the major differentiator because the other stuff will come and go, I think. And I think to that point, like we were talking about them all doom and gloom last week, they won four in a row since we last talked about them. That could easily flip the other way at any moment because I think you're right.

I think it is funny that Doc is playing the young guys, and it's AJ Green and Jackson, who are like 23 and 24, who are basically fully formed young guys at this point. But we'll give them credit for at least moving past the Conantin model and going to the least of the younger model. I think Brooke Lopez has looked pretty good of like shooting the ball really well and just looks a little bit more spry and just like in the flow of things defensively in a way that I think is going to matter. How much of that is just like things are flowing on the offense is just giving him more time to get set on the defensive end, who knows? But I think you're right, was. I think it's like,

is the chemistry Dame and Janus are showing right now going to carry over? They're making a big old stink about it. They're telling everyone that their chemistry is better and look how good our chemistry is. And have you seen the chemistry that we're putting together? We'll see, ultimately. One thing I think is an interesting wrinkle, though, is Janus is taking way more mid-range jumpers. And we talked in the past about how Janus might be a little too set in his ways. That's one way where I think, like, it's almost in the Anthony Davis mold where he's adding a little bit more of a dimension to him, but it's not the full-blown, let me step outside, shoot threes, electric, let me just completely change my game thing. If he could add that, it paces him throughout

the season. And I also think it gives him a little bit more of a threat when they build the wall against him. It gives defenses something more to encounter. And if he can it's that in there, maybe that's a little bit of a wrinkle plus whatever he gets from Dame where it can make them a little bit more dynamic. And if anything, like, maybe paced out how much the chemistry matters between them, because he himself is pacing himself out and giving him something new to throw out there. Yeah, was as a, as a Janus jumper skeptic, what would you say if I told you that Janus is attempting the fourth most mid-range shots in the entire NBA right now? And also what would you say if I told you, he's hitting

48% of those shots. Basically like DeRosen Devin Booker numbers right now. Chris Middleton numbers. I'm personally not sold on it, but I'm not an idiot. I can't argue with accuracy and efficiency. You've tried before. No, no, no, no. He's never been this efficient before.

No, I agree. His efficiency is up there. And if he's maintaining it, then I, you know, I got to eat a big, big fat old dummy sandwich. I was an idiot for questioning it. If this efficiency continues, especially, you know, at this pace, I can't argue with that. If Janice is proven me and other Janice jump shot skeptics wronged, then, you know, that's a big development. And I think the reason why that matters is because, like, you can't just subsist on barreling into five guys all game, every game, 82 games, then do it in the playoffs again against the best teams. Like physically, that's a big demand, right?

And to me, I thought, you know, offsetting that would just be letting other guys do stuff. And Janus picking his spots when he can be mega aggressive. But if the offset is that he's going to have an accurate jump shot for mid-ranged in, have at it, Janus, do it. Like, I'm not mad at that at all. I think all of these elements are important in the way that you outlined, though, Justin, which is the chemistry between Janice and Dame is clearly really critical to the buck's overall success. But if you have Janus hitting these jumpers,

If you have these role players chipping in their games, if you have a resurgent Brooke Lopez, like you're taking some of the pressure off Dame and Janus having to be perfect together all the time. And the more you can do that, the more you can get, like their starting lineup is finally getting stops for maybe the first time all season. Those are really critical developments for them.

Anything to kind of take some of the edge off and make it so that every time Janus goes to the bench, it doesn't feel like the team might fall apart, I think ultimately really serves just like the overall psychological state of this team. winning solves a lot. You know, if you're winning the game, you could point to the one play where it's like, oh, this is a representation of what we could be as opposed to harping on the four to five plays that probably lost you the game.

So I'm encouraged more than I was about a week ago, but we'll see. I'm curious, who should we go with the players here? Because it's a real deep cut of side dishes here. Was, why don't you go with yours first? So I ended up having a combo. combination dish here, guys. Because I want to talk about both RJ Barrett and Grady Dick.

Okay. Because I think they've both been pretty interesting. R.J. Barrett, like, my ultimate dream of him becoming a sort of updated Vron Artesse type, physical defender, downhill guy, you know, can't completely sag off of his jump shot, secondary playmaking.

That was my ultimate dream for him. It never fully materialized. defensive impact has just never happened. It's unfortunate because I thought he had the tools and the physicality. It never happened. However, when the Knicks shipped him out last year, it was just like, look, on ball, like, yeah, we get it. You have some nice, decent juice. But Julius ran on Jalen Bruncing, they got that.

Like, we don't need you to do that. And you don't guard. And Tibido is like, what the fuck? Like, this is not our kind of player. And so he was put into the deal for OG Ananobe, who obviously, filled more needs what the Knicks needed at the time. However, in Toronto,

I think he's been allowed to spread his wings more, obviously, because of the circumstances, not just the roster construction, but, you know, Scotty Barnes being out and all of that. And obviously, he's averaging a career high in points. Career high and assist by, like, you know, 30%, which I think is eye-opening, like his playmaking game, which was a big problem at first in New York,

he could have a bit of a tunnel vision to see his playmaking evolve in that way. And then, of course, he's having a career high year at the free throw line, which I thought was always going to be a differentiator for R.J. Barrett. And so it's just nice that, look, man, by the time they shipped him out of New York,

even the most optimist RJ Nick fans that I knew were like, we're ready. It's time. We're glad he's gone. And so to see him blossom this way, It's been amazing. And Grady Dick diversifying his offense this year, not just being a purely catch and shoot three point guy.

He's getting to the cup. He's four-xed his free throw attempts this year per game. That's insane. You know, like he's getting to the line, getting to the cup, even taking a few mid-rangers off the bouts. Him diversifying his game is showing that like, oh, oh, this is a nice piece. Brady Dick is potentially going to be a guy

that helps be one of the building blocks to the future of whatever the Raptors are. So I wanted to combine those two guys because of my history with RJ and just being legitimately impressed with how Grady Dick has taken a step in a different direction. What if the Raptors just built the same exact team

that they had before, but instead of six, six guys who only play defense and can't shoot, they have only six guys who can shoot but struggle defensively. Yeah. Because it seems like that's, what's happening here. And I ultimately think was that this is a Scotty Barnes backdoor conversation

because God forbid we talked about the Raptors, without talking about Scotty Barnes's progress. I thought it was curious that in the starting lineup yesterday, they listed Scotty Barnes as the point guard. But on the first defensive possession, he was guarding Evan Mobley. And so I was like, oh, this feels a little Ben Simmonsy here. But I do think the biggest question with Barnes coming into the season was how much of a scorer he is. The shooting obviously is a big factor in it, but can he be your go-to scorer? I am dubious of that fact, but if you surround him with a lot of scoring, can he be the point power forward who orchestrates with all these separate options? Can he be the table setter? Can he be more, I don't want to say Siakum, because he already kind of vaulted past him

in terms of where he is as an offensive player in terms of progress in terms of shooting. But can he be just more the point guard and let all those other guys do that and he could just get into the mix. Yeah, I think the best case scenario for Scotty Barnes is that kind of facilitation. And ultimately, they haven't, the Raptors really haven't a chance to see all three of their creators out there together. Emmanuel Quickly has also missed the majority of the season so far. RJ, as we said, has been such a key playmaker because Barnes and Quickly were both out. You put all the- hurdle in that conversation. Well, he's being enabled by RJ Barrett, among other things. That's, That's the pick and roll combo of my dreams.

Empowered by Andre Barrett. Completely. I want to talk about that part specifically because RJ, in terms of his playmaking, which I do think is the part of his game that has really, really popped this year, has been so good at creating offense at the basket. He's always been a driver,

maybe more of one direction than the other sometimes. That has balanced out a little bit. And overall, he's just one of the best, like one of the best assist creators for baskets. like shots at the basket in the restricted area. A lot of that is pick and roll. A lot of that's finding guys on cuts.

A lot of that's just keeping his head up was in the way that you were saying. Like he did have that sort of blinders effect as a young player. And there were so many parts of watching him run into the same walls over and over and over again as a Nick that he now feels sort of liberated from. And he does feel like a totally different kind of player. And if RJ is that guy and Scotty Barnes is a facilitator and Emmanuel quickly is back healthy, that's the core of something. I don't know where that group ultimately leads you and maybe you still need that sort of influx of transcendent talent.

Maybe that's Cooper Flagg's music. We'll see how that goes this season. But ultimately, I think there is something here and I agree that Grady Dick has kind of made himself a part of it by I may push back even a little bit, just on the characterization that like these guys all are a little lacking defensively. I think Grady Dick is actually a pretty competitive defender,

like not a world beater by any means. Okay. He's a white guy. We get it. That's not what I'm saying. We got to start somewhere. You're starting somewhere. And what you want when your shooters actually have length is that they're actually going to commit and try on defense, on defense and work for it and make themselves into more well-rounded players.

And I think the way the greedy dig has done that has, yes, been getting to the line, been getting into mid-range, been involved in a wider variety of actions. it's also been turning himself into not a complete liability on defense. And that is a thing that I think is worth noting. They're what, four and 13 right now? So we should pump the brakes just ever so slightly. But I do like it long term and how it scales next to Barnes. Because I agree. I think if Barrett can be effective as a creator off of these secondary actions, I think it fits the entire vision that they have with, Barnes being the focal point of what they have. I also think if he's not that guy, if quickly is not that guy, it opens up spots for maybe these high draft picks that are coming in. It seems like there are a lot of bigger wing scores, electric offensive player types. I think you could easily slot in there. And I think it's more about a bigger discussion about you want your superstar player obviously to be dominant in different factors, but you also want him to not take enough off the table

that you have to fill it in other areas. If Barnes is changed, checking all the boxes, it provides you more flexibility with the other players around him. And so if he is an excellent defensive player who's a facilitator, you could fill offensive players around him, which are actually easier probably to find than 3&D types or guys that need to be a little bit more nuanced. And so I like him as like the foundation for something. I'm still a little bit more mixed on Barrett. I think he's had an awesome start. I think he could be a guy within this team. But I wouldn't lock him in as like, a sure fire he's going to be a two or three in the vision for this team going forward.

We'll see. But I kind of like where they are from this point forward if they can keep adding electric offensive players on top of what they. Yeah, it's not that RJ has solved everything about how to approach the game or that he plays a spotless brand of basketball or that even for all the playmaking gains that he's made, that he's all of a sudden elite option in a way that feels really compelling and unarguable. It's just that he's gone from this player who was genuinely very frustrating to watch into one that is actually exciting and one that is actually moving the needle for the raptors and is actually fulfilling needs that that team has had while other guys have been out. We all want to see what this team looks like when everybody's healthy. We all want

to see what this core could eventually be. But I'm with you. Like nothing about RJ's game screams, oh, this is an immovable piece for the future of the Toronto Raptors. She's a really good player who's a part of this mix now and we'll see where that goes. If anything, the efficiency on the scoring is virtually the same. Like scoring-wise, he's kind of the same. He's just added the playmaking. Yes, it's the playmaking. And again, a slight uptick in the free throws.

And look, for me, it's like he signed for his rookie extension less than a max. And I think he's playing to that level, right? Like, he's playing like a very high-quality starter. And if RJ in a future scenario for this team or another, where it's like, look, we don't, count on him to do any of this scoring or distributing or shooting. But he, he's at a level that he can be competent around pretty much anything at this point. And that's what I think is important. Like I think R.J. could be, I don't, I think foundational is like, you know, like,

what's Derek White to the, the, the, the Celtic success? It's not foundational. Once you're a Sam Adams guy, I think you're part of the white blood of the organization. Fabric of the city, yeah. Yeah, but it's an important, he could be something important to something, you know, that's a high level of winning. And so that's what I think is nice about watching RJ to a guy who, like, I've been up and down, but like Phil really invested in what he's been doing because I felt

like he unfairly got killed for not being as good as John Morant and freaking Zion Williamson. which is tough. That's just a tough position. But I like the player that he's turning himself into. Might be the last guy standing out of that crew. So we'll see. I agree with what you're saying. But to keep on this jag about a youngish scores trying to find themselves, let's talk about Shaden Sharp. Obviously in my backyard. Sexy. Yeah, I've actually thought about picking Shaden Sharp, but I figured I'm just like not allowed to pick Blazers because you're going to shoot. in the mint of every conversation. I feel like I've like,

I've tempered my enthusiasm. Okay. Like I've kind of sat on my hands about sharp because he seemed like he was onto something. He had those back to back 30 point games, which in Portland I was in attendance for both of those. And I was like pretty damn good. I will say this like,

I'm trying to rack my brains. I can't think of a smoother athlete that I've seen live than him. Just everything he does just seems cooler as a result. I don't know how much you guys are. following like skateboarding, but like there's, there's a certain type of skateboarder who has just like great style. Like there's the guys that jump over things, like all the stairs and like they're the bold ones. And then you have the technically precise ones. But then you have the guys who just like do things and it just looks cool as shit. It's like the Eric Koston types. And Shaden is the

type of guy who does that because every movement he makes, it seems like he's like doing it thoughtfully. Like he already planned this out. But if anything, he's just so smooth, like improvise and fluid as an athlete. It just looks good. And I also think it adds to his benefit because then, like, he'll just, like, turn his body and square up as a shooter, like, more quickly on stepbacks than I think other players do. So there's that.

Can we do a whole pod that's just guys who do things and look cool as shit? And we just, we just talk about that for an hour. I would honestly be into it. It kind of is this, this podcast, if we're being honest. So I think he's on the verge of a potential. breakthrough of being the guy that I think a lot of Blazers fans are hoping for. I think the problem is the past two games have been a little bit more mixed. And I think part of that is sharp, perhaps not being as much of a playmaker or really any

playmaking. He's just really kind of Tunnel Vision does his own thing, needs to develop that end of it. But you have seen him do better next to Pass Force point guard than he does against one Anthony Simons. Even Scoot Henderson, for instance, has kind of downshed. shifted into this like team first mode where he's just trying to get everyone else involved in orchestra as opposed to go for his own in part because I think like he's just trying to make anything work. And it's worked to Sharp's benefit because then Sharp gets to do what he wants. Simon is a little

bit more complex because they are pretty similar types where they're both like electric scoring guards who the playmaking and the facilitating aspect comes kind of second nature to them. And there are times like in the second game against Houston the other night where it could look good. There was like this one slip that Simon had off of like a screen for Sharp and it was like a very quick hit for a three and I was like, that's pretty good. But other times it does look redundant. And so it does get into like kind of a backdoor Simon's conversation where it's like, I think Simons is the better player at point guard, but I think Sharp works better with past first point guards, not only Scoop, but Delano Banton. And so what is that?

mean. Simon's hasn't played particularly well of late. He had a really good game against Houston the other night. But I don't know. I think like in the big conversation with Portland about who do you trade, who do you keep. I think you keep the veterans until they step on some of the developing young guys. I think Simons unfortunately might be one. I share your enthusiasm for Shade and Sharp doing cool shit. If I can transpose some of the RJ Barrett conversation onto this one, Like, it is very apparent that he is on the verge of a breakthrough, but to what? Like, what kind of a player can Shaden Sharp be? Because you do see these flashes from him.

And I agree with you in terms of the overall sort of rhythm of his game. Like, he's playing with the kinds of changes in pace that you need to have to really be a high level factor off the dribble. Right? He looks, he's this unbelievable athlete. He has the bursts. And yet he's using it to get into spots and keep his balance. And it does feel very controlled. it does feel very balanced.

You can see like a year over year difference in how he's creating in the pick and roll off the dribble, manufacturing stuff for himself. You also see teammates all over the floor waving at him, begging him to pass the ball. And I don't think it's just a matter of like,

oh, this guy, it's not natural to him to make plays. I'm just not sure he's ever going to be that kind of player. And the way that like Anthony Simons has kind of forced himself as a round peg into a square hole and made himself into a semi-functional lead guard playmaker, I don't think Shaden Sharp has that in him per se, or even necessarily wants to be that.

And if he's not that, he's just a guy who puts up a lot of points and looks really good doing it. And maybe he can be really efficient doing that someday. But what is that player? I don't really know. He's got to become something more special, he's got to pair that with, like,

guarding his position well or something else has to come of this because I just looked this up while y'all was talking. He's at a 27% usage, is, that's the real deal. Like, yo, he's, he's taking over the offense. They're featuring him. Like, they're clearing out running stuff for him. Two point five assists per game.

Honestly, I thought it was lower. That's comical. Yeah, that's, you know, he's got a lot of Michael Porter, Jr. in him, in that sense. But, like, I think he hasn't played a lot. He only played 30 games last season. It's the very beginning of the season. This stuff, if, if he,

it doesn't come natural to you. You have to work on it, right? Like, you have to put the pain in to get results out of your playmaking and read the defenses and getting off the ball quicker. Like, I think about somebody like Donovan Mitchell, man, it took Kenny Ackinson to get in there and, you know, preach, get off the ball quicker. You know, not that Donovan Mitchell was ever this level of Chucker, but he's had problems in the past seeing the floor more.

And it comes a new coach, new philosophy, and talking, talking this guy into being more willing to get off the rock to the point where, you know, they lose to the Celtics. And he's like, yo, part of the problem is I was getting into my older ways and not getting off of it quick enough and ISO and too much and doing that. And this is like how long into his career that he's becoming this guy. So I don't think it's, I'm not going to foreclose on the opportunity that or the, the, the idea that this guy can can change it up and diversify the way he attacks defenses. But yeah, right now, yeah, he's a chucker.

Allen-Ovison would be proud of him. That honestly, all totally fair. I think, Justin, for me, what it is, is like when you are a young team in Portland's position, and eventually you do have to start making bets on these guys. And you have to start saying, we're going to start shifting a little more in the Simon's direction, a little more in the Shade and Sharp direction, a little bit more in the Scoot Henderson direction, whatever it ends up being or whatever combination of those guys you think can work. That's easier to do when as a player you can do multiple things.

And right now, Shane Sharp does one thing. And he doesn't, maybe two, if you want to incorporate like pure spot shootings, because I do think he's pretty good at that too. But really, he is just a score. And that, I think, can be limiting in terms of projecting face of the franchise potential or foundational piece potential. I think it's not as much of a concern because they are building a pretty solid foundation defensively. Like, they're actually a pretty competent. and defense. And I think if you're going to have Klingin in the middle of that, and I think he's basically supplanted Aiton as the starter at this point when Ait is able to get back out there. It's insane. I think Klingin is going to be a very good rim protector and rebounder. He had to

game the other night where he had zero points and 19 rebounds. And so he's like almost doing a lot of the dirty work that you would want from the supplementary players. I also think Grant probably fits what they're building in a way where he's like would be tougher to trade at this point. And so if you have Kamara Grant Clingon defensively, it allows you to be a little bit more offensive leaning with the other two positions. I just think, like, Simons and Sharp probably overlap a little too much because you want somebody at the very least to get things moving. And to Simon's credit, I think he's tried to be more in facilitator mode in order to make

it work. I think a lot of times that leads to him just maybe like stepping out, passing it to Sharp and just watching because there's nothing really else for him to do. So I don't know. I think if you had to pick one, I think you go sharp. But again, like, I think it's that classic issue they keep coming into conflict with, which is the older guy is better. And how do you play the younger guy who's worse if you don't know if that guy is the guy for the future?

I'm actually higher on Sharp. I think a lot of the tunnel vision stuff can be worked out. And if anything, if he is the score next to, for instance, if they get a high draft pick and it's Dylan Harper, who's more of a playmaker type. He can play off of that sort of player really well, but that player has to be the facilitator plus a score, and Sharp can just be the guy running off pin downs and actions. He'd be more of like a shooter who can drive the ball whenever is necessary.

He's more of the second side guy. Yeah, as a second side guy, I think that could really work for him. It just depends on how they want to use him in the offense, who's ultimately around him, as you say, like, do you have the point guard who can make sense of that sort of alignment? Because if Shaden Sharp is the guy running your offense, and there have been plenty of times a season where he is that for Portland. Your offense goes one place.

And that place, to his credit, is off into the rim. Like, he's getting downhill. He's turning the corner. He's doing really well. But it's going to ride with Shade Sharp. And I want a more diverse overall picture for my offense than that. I love what he's doing individually. I'm just trying to figure out what the team context is.

Listen, they're 7 and 10. They're just playing above their skis right now. They would be the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference. if it ended up. But I agree with what Waz is saying. I think if he is going to be second side guy, then he has to be more of a defender because then he has to do more than just.

And we should say he's not. Not a defender. No. Not a rebounder. Honestly, I think I would feel better about the trajectory if he were turning the ball over more trying to make feats.

Like if he were trying to spray out and it's just like the timing was off, the rhythm was off, the read wasn't quite there. I think I would feel like, a different way. But the fact that he's really attacking and the turnovers that he gets are mostly just like mishandling the ball or getting picked or driving into a crowd. It just points to him being like a very straightforward player in a way that I would love to see him evolve from.

I will say maybe this is me just being there live and being overly enamored with like the sight of it. But like I do think he's operating on a level that even like NBA athletes aren't. And I think like I will take a bet on that like 10 times. How could you not? Like it's, it's, It's a worthy endeavor. Yeah. Speaking of another young guy working his way into the mix, Rob, I think the floor is yours for your player. Yeah, we're talking leaps today, apparently. The Magic are one of the best teams in the East.

Franz Wagner looks like a star. The defense is elite. The role players are getting the job done. And our guy, Anthony Black, is really, really starting to pop. I think he can still be pretty up and down as a player, but you can see, I think, overall, a really profound difference in the way he's been able to create. specifically in the half court. He's always been a really good open floor player,

transition player. You give him even a semi-break. He's going to weave his way through and find something to do with the ball, something creative, something productive in terms of where our possession can go. But I think he's doing a lot more than just revving up the magic right now.

And he's starting to look a lot more like a real NBA point guard who can make things happen when it does slow down, when everything gets harder. And that's been really awesome to see. Yeah, these tall guys dare I say it, a la Luca Donchich, who had the playmaking chops.

The first Anthony Black Luca Donchich comp in human history. Well, it's more about like when these guys are turning the corner on a pick and roll, they just have a better line of sight on the other guys on the floor than the shorter guys do. Like, they're just better. The LeBron's, the Lukas, the Nicola Yokic's. Like, they can see over people. This dude being six foot seven and having the instincts that he does for playmaking, I think that's what's really been popping to me is like, man, he's actually using his size to accentuate

what's being asked of him in a way that I think has staying power and is something to build off of it. That's what's really incredible to me. Because, again, like, Luca has the vision, but is that he's so big and rangy that helps him a lot in a way that, look, he could have all the freaking court. Vision he won at 5-11, you're not getting those passes off and over all these lengthy athletic dudes, you know, even if you have the foresight to do so. Yeah, did you guys see the pass in the Clippers game where he was like driving and then he like

left hand, one-handed it all the way to the opposite corner in the right. Hell yeah. A corner three. I was like, what the fuck is that? It was metal as hell. Yeah, that was pretty impressive. I think the size is there. I think the vision is there.

my only concern is just the shooting and he's gotten more aggressive about putting it up when defenders go under on him and that's great to see because you only want him to be respectable on that end as a starting block. I think the problem is it still feels like teams are pretty aggressively going under and he's a little bit more hesitant than I was expecting. But clearly a player who has great feel when he's out there, clearly having a dramatic effect on that second unit. And we talked about him a couple days ago, Rob, where I was like, maybe get him in the starting unit until Apollo gets back, because he just seems to have a way of getting things in motion that I think would benefit Franz in particular, not that he needs it these days, but I think

if he had more of a head of esteem, got him going, I think that he would fit really well there. Yeah. I think it is telling that when guys have been out, whether it's Palo, obviously missing time right now, when Franz was sick earlier in the season, Anthony Black has been a little bit of the escape patch for them. You like put put him out there in case of emergency, rely on his playmaking, even betting on the idea that teams aren't going to guard him as aggressively at the three point line, but using him to keep the offense moving when the ball does come his way. He needs to make more threes. Like, you're right. He's just going to have to do that at some point. And I'm encouraged by, I think, two things. One, the frequency with which he's taking them, as you said,

not just hunting when teams go under, but overall, when the ball swings to him, not being shy about taking those shots that the offense, frankly, needs him to take. And also the fact that his teammates are trusting him to take them in the first place, including in some huge moments. Like, part of being as essential as he's been to the magic is he's been out there to close in a lot of these games. And he's there in the corner and Jalen Suggs and Franz Wagner, like, those guys are swinging him the ball and expecting him to hit the shot.

We'll see if they ultimately fall or not enough over the course of his career to matter in that way. But that's ultimately going to be more of a tertiary part. of his game. It is going to be more about the flow and the playmaking. It is going to be about the disruption that he can cause on defense. Like the magic have a lot of really fun combinations of players. The Jonathan Isaac Anthony Black muck shit up combo off the bench. Super fun to watch. Do those lineups score at all? I don't know. Not really. Sometimes they really get stuck in the mud, but they force so many turnovers. They blow up plays even involving superstar level players.

It's really fun to watch and it's really disruptive in a way that I think points to something that can be really valuable for the magic. And that to me is what's important, right? It's like we know how important shooting is in the modern NBA, blah, blah, blah, yeah, teams are taking 53s a game. We get it. You still have to have other components to what you're doing. And the fact that he so beautifully fits into their defensive mentality and physicality,

this guy's not afraid to take the assignment of the best perimeter player and guard him on an island. Like, he's long, he's big, he's instinctual. He, he's, his defense, man, is just a joy to watch for a guy who's only 20 years old. Yeah. To already have the mentality of, you know, I'm a dog out there. I'm here to harass people on defense. I love that about what he's doing. So, yeah, man, you can mind an instinct for playmaking, a willingness to get off the ball.

And, you know, his size vision with tenacity on defense. Yeah, man. to get off my lawn DNA in me. Yeah, that gets me excited. Where do we see long term for him, though? Because is the goal maybe to eventually supplant KCP, like when he ages out of the contract, like he's the point guard in name,

but Suggs is the off guard? Like, is that the trajectory, Rob? I think if that's going to be the case, he is going to have to at three is at a pretty high level. Like, if you're going to play with Franz and Paolo full time, you got to hit spot-up shots at a higher rate than he currently does. So he does make sense as a sort of hybrid guard. Like he can play either spot a little bit.

He can obviously come off the bench as he's been doing. Looking down the line, by the time he's 25, yeah, I think you hope that he can be a really legit driver of your offense in a more significant way. Right now he gets to be the wild card and the fun kind of counter speed. And he is becoming good at that. So let's maybe start there and see how it goes over the course of the season. Yeah, like he's a hard player to pin down long term for exactly that reason. Yeah, I wonder if he could maybe, I don't know, be like an Agu Dala type of threat from

three where it's like, you know, he makes him often enough that at times defensive have to kind of respect it. Aga Dada is a low bar from three, you know. I don't, I just don't know that he's ever going to be like good at it. but can he be manageable, you know, around some high level other offensive players that he's complimenting, you know, the time remains to be seen on that. Yeah. All right.

Let's go to the takes now. And I'm going to go first here. Everyone holds their breath and anticipation. What am I going to do? Yeah, what are you got? I was going to go with a bolder one, but I'll spin it back here just because. Why? Running on it.

Well, you know, I. I want to really, really hit that one hard. And now it's going to be probably a separate podcast. The two games set in the same location against the same team is an awful idea. And we need to abolish it immediately. It is such a, like, an awful experience for fans. So if you're a fan of a home team, you're going to the game on Tuesday, you see the Minnesota Timberwolves. Great.

Anthony Edwards is in town. I can't wait to see the wolves. This is exciting. the next day, what happens? Anthony Edwards and the Minnesota Timberwolves yet again. What fan is like actually wanting to go to see the same experience twice? When you watch the showgun episode, Rob, do you want to just roll it back immediately the next day and watch the same exact

showgun episode? It's just, it doesn't make any sense to me. And it seems like a classic NBA thing where they're acknowledging that the schedule is a problem, that guys are feeling the physical effects of the traffic. of the back-to-backs, all that stuff. So what they do is they come up with a half measure that ultimately makes the product worse. And so you're acknowledging that there needs to be a solution here,

but you're actually coming up with a thing that actually makes me want to not tune in as opposed to doing the most logical thing, which would be to scale back the schedule. I keep coming back to this entire thing where it's like they're constantly contorting themselves into knots rather than just doing what everyone agrees would make the product better.

If you're a casual fan, if you're a hardcore fan, everyone is like, get me fewer games and they just refuse to do it. I just, I don't understand it. And so we have these stupid games

where I'm just watching the same thing back to back. It's like, no one wants this. It sucks. That's the take. Hard agree. That was the lesser take. No notes.

No notes. Hard agree. Terrible. The other part of the schedule. I'm looking at the schedule. I'm realizing two things suck in Justin's craw. Apparently one of them was seeing Anthony Edwards twice in a row. I don't really see the problem with that personally.

I'm thinking that the moment that really broke you was the October 25th and October 27th sequence with the Pelicans, Blazers Pelicans, two games in a row. I think that's what might have sucked your soul out a little bit. I didn't go to the first one of those. Okay, good. We were in L.A., but they had a two game set. Oh, I guess it was the Timberals. I didn't go to the second game.

That's what I'm talking about. I just, I didn't, I don't mean to see this again. I don't need to see this. But this is your problem. Like, you're thinking of it as watching the same episode of Shogun over again. Really what this is is like a, this is the binge model. This is, I want to watch the next installment of this budding rivalry. Not in this case, because the wolves don't have a rivalry.

But like, I want to see the tensions rising and escalating between these teams as the, as they get a little, you know, a little mini series going. That never works. Like, yeah, sometimes guys get into tussle. and then it carries into the next game. And it's just like a little bit more spicy. But it never just like ratches it up to where it's a different experience. They even go as far as so the Blazers had a two game set against the Rockets in Houston.

They changed the jerseys the next night to be like, oh, this is a completely new thing. And the Edwards experience, I think, is like an instructive one because there's also a whole part of this where like older players are getting load managed on one of these games. and if you're a fan, you have to pick which one in advance, which happened to me last year, when I thought I was seeing Nicola Yokic. I ended up seeing Aaron Gordon as the starting center, just like against Scoot Henderson and a bunch of just like bench players. Edwards is the classic case where it's like, if he's in a certain mode at this point in the season where he's like, you know, he's struggling a little bit. He hasn't been like the takeoff top five MVP candidate that we thought he was. I get two of those games as opposed to seeing him now

and getting a different experience later when he might have figured everything out. And so not only is like the team repetitive and redundant, you also get the same sort of performance from the guys you want to see as opposed to the variety of like early season edition and a late season. Let me piggyback off that while we're talking to Anthony Edwards because I have a related take, which is, look, we're barely into the season, and not even a quarter of the way through.

It is November 25th, as we're recording this podcast. Based on everything that we have seen so far, I just don't think the wolves are going anywhere this season. I just look at that team. I see, yes, they can compete. They can compete with some of the best teams in the league sometimes. They can give the Celtics a run for their money. Night to night, the vibes are really bad.

The flow of the team is not good. The defense is not up to the standard. it was last season. And they are staring down a Western conference that is in no way for giving to them for having even a bad month or so. And so, yes, there's plenty of time to write the ship. There's obviously a lot of season to be played

for these guys to work out their habits, to find the combinations. I look at the roster. I see a combination of a couple of wild card spots in the rotation. Mike Conley, chief among them. Like, what is Mike Conley going to be able to give them over the course of this season?

I see players who don't necessarily know how to work together, and maybe that's worked together yet. Maybe Julius Randall and Rudy Gobert figure it out over time. Maybe Nas Reid, who I think has had kind of a weird season so far, finds his place in the rotation in a more meaningful way. Maybe this is a team that figures out how to do and replicate some of the things that, like, Kyle Anderson was giving them last season and may have gone unnoticed in lots of ways.

Maybe they figure all that stuff out. I'm just not sure they have enough room for error in the West to have any kind of run. And so I'm looking at this team now and what they read like to me on November 25th is a team that either like makes the playing and gets bounced because they don't take a game seriously enough or they play with their food

or they make the first round and they're a quickout. Like that's what the wolves feel like right now to me and coming off of the run that they had last year. I am mystified how we got here. I think this actually happened the first Rudy year. where Aunt was taking all of these jump shots because he just couldn't figure out

how to get into the lane and people were asking him about it and he didn't want to be, he was trying to be nice, but he's like, the lane is clogged. I don't know how to do this yet. And I think there's an element of that happening. And then, you know, too, it's Julius Randall.

Like, I get it. He's a good player. But I'm sure you guys saw that clip going around. I forget who they were playing the other day. Rudy had a guy completely serious. like literally put the guy under the basket and Randall looked him home and I think just

turned the ball over. Instead of just depositing a pass to Rudy, again he's not shack down there but he can finish one footers, you know instead of just passing him the ball. And yes, sometimes. And that dynamic I think has

is going to be some time for that to work itself out. And again, Randall is angling for a new deal, y'all like that shit matters. And I don't know that they have it in him to be like, yo, all right, man, we'll make you a bench unit guy, a six-man type. Because like six-man types don't get paid, y'all.

So, you know, I think there's a lot of kinks to be worked out. But yeah, I've given up hope on The Wolves this season, figuring something out and getting any. Because there was this idea like, oh, Nas Reid and Julius Randall, they're going to basically 90s, 90% of Carl Anthony Towns production. It's like, nah, it doesn't work like that. There's a dynamic to the offense that just is completely removed when you don't have

cat. And, you know, he had figured out how to become a decent defensive foreman. And yeah, I just, I'm in agreement with you. See, I still am bullish because I see the offensive potential of the new additions. and the fact that Devencenzzo hasn't played particularly well, I think is a sticking point in this discussion. I think they even have a level to go when he plays bad. Again, I think Randall has been fine by and large. I don't think he's much of an issue.

And so is the problem that the pieces don't fit and that there's something just wrong with the mix here? Or do they not have the safeguards that Edwards had used in years past in order to stop the bleeding from happening? I think you hear Kyle Anderson being such a big part of the locker room. room and just like on the on floor execution. So is it something like that where they need to find the guys who will plug the holes when needed, where it's more of like, not necessarily chemistry, but they had come to rely on a certain guy to provide a certain thing. They just haven't found that versus the team is a mess.

This version doesn't work. They needed Kat to do XYZ. I kind of think it is more of the former than the latter. It could end up being that. I think what's concerning to me about Kyle Anderson being such a prominent. part of this discussion so earlier in the season is that if you look at their roster, there are a lot of guys who do one or two discreet things quite well. There aren't a lot of players in that roster who are good connective tissue players.

And when you have a weird fit to begin with and you're trying to amass all of these individual skills, like specialists is too strong for the collection of players that the wolves have, but guys who have like pretty singular focuses, foci in terms of how they play. What? I don't. Isn't the plural of focus? I'm gonna let the editor handle this one man. You tell us, man.

I'm gonna let the audience decide on that one. Whatever it is that they're doing, like, there are a lot of players on this team who are very straightforward in the way that they approach it and not enough players on the team who are kind of comprehensive

and filling gaps and who are able to modulate how they play based on the person next to them. That concerns me. There isn't a lot of versatility in that way. And if you don't have that, what you're left with is one of the most transcendent individual talents in the league in Anthony Edwards. And a bunch of guys who should be able to work

together, but so far have not really proven that they can on a consistent enough basis. So that worries me. That's where I think you can ding Randall. Because especially if Conley is being emphasized, if he's not playing the back-to-back, it's just not as integral to what's happening. you need Randall to be the connector in a way that probably Anderson and even Town is like good at just like getting out of the way. If that's where Randall is probably a little bit more me first in a way that doesn't show up in some of the data. I agree with that. Yeah. All right.

Wise, what's your take? So to me for my money, there's like a set group of the NBA's greatest players, right? We do this goat talk, Mike, LeBron. To me, it's Mike, LeBron, Dalton Connect, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Those are the three greats. The three greatest. If somebody wanted to make a legitimate argument for one of those three to be like,

this is the greatest NBA player ever, I think you can make a compelling case for each of those three guys. I think just nipping at the edges of that are magic and Russell. Oh, God. And I know where this is going. person who is going to be added to this list, y'all, is Nicola fucking Yokic, man. I'm telling y'all, I am telling you guys, obviously he's already won three MVP's. When it comes to these fucking all-in-one advance stats, he's got these records in those

categories where it's like he's clearly, clearly the NBA's best player. this man has won three MVP's and he is now having his best season ever. It's insane. And there is no sign of slowing down of abatement, y'all. This guy is just incredible. I get it. He's averaging the triple double. He's threatening the first ever triple crown in the history of NBA basketball.

Nobody's ever even thought you could do something like that. lead the league in scoring, assist and rebound. Oh, if he does that, Justin has to come to a live show on a horse or something. It's just watching him this year, be, again, he's already won three MVPs, guys, and he's playing his best basketball ever. Like, I know a lot of times just like,

oh, you know, Yokic is looking like he might be top 15. Some people might get freaky and say, oh, he's looking like he's top 10. No, I'm telling y'all, he's going to the Mike LeBron magic Kareem level, y'all. This is how great of a player he is. And I was reading Hollinger this morning the freaking point differential of like 34 freaking points when he's on or off the court. I literally told this to you on our last podcast. Oh, yeah, you did it too.

Whatever. And I also, I would like to say, it was. it was big of me to not point out that their center rotation is so trash that like if Hayton was starting at center this would be like a 20 point differential but doesn't matter doesn't matter I'm getting takes off here anyway I also I'm glad that we are now a a semi video podcast because I need anyone who's just listening to the show you need to go to YouTube you need to open up your Spotify app you need to pull up the video I need you to find the little shimmy that waz did as he was saying that Nicola was getting freaky.

It was really something to behold. I'm just saying, man, this guy, I'm running out of superlatives, man. Like, he is just incredible, singular experience night after night that he could just be this great, this consistently, man. And again,

we talked about him beginning of the year where it's just like, yo, you know, this team is lacking in role players and all of this stuff. And, you know, the shooting is bad and all of the shit. Maybe it's just going to have to be,

Yokic just completely decides, I'm taking over everything. I'm doing everything. And what has he gone out and done? I'm just going to do everything. I'm going to lead the league in boards. I'm going to be you up right there with a sis. I'm going to lead the league and score.

Like, it's insane, man. This guy's headed for top five Mount Rushmore level, just a very year. You know what this is? Early in the season, we caught Yokish on a down swing after they'd lost the first two games. and we express doubt.

And when I say we, I mean all of us. And now, Waz is now overcompensating for the fact that he ever doubted for a second that Nicola Yokic is that guy. Never doubted. Well, to be a proper religious movement, someone needs to rise again. You really need the resurrection narrative for it to work. But yeah, I know I'm the chief, me and Rob together. And my man, Michael Pina, we're the chief, Yokic, propagandis in NBA media, man.

But this season has done nothing to do. dissuade me of this guy's just ultimate greatness. Love that guy. Shousey Yokic, greatest of all time. So we've had an Anthony Black to Luca Donchich comp. We've had Nicola Yokic to Bill Russell, at least in the Pantheon sense comp. Yes, sir. I think this one is probably closer to being true, honestly. Like, Yokic is probably closer to cracking, like ultimately in terms of trajectory, what he's been able to do so far, assuming he continues to play. And that's really the variable with him. I think is not just how good can he be in a season like this. He doesn't miss

games either. But no, no, not that, but how long does he want to do this? Like, how long does Nicole Yokic want to be this guy? And how long, to be fair, are the Denver Nuggets going to position him where he has to do this every night? Because this is not his ideal form of playing basketball.

It's my ideal. If they keep trotting him out there for 39 minutes a game, like he's probably not going to last much longer. If only because he's just sick of doing everything for everybody else. That's the only thing I'm worried about is just like how much they're just asking too much of him too soon.

He missed three games. He comes back and he's like basically playing 40 minutes again. It's just like, God damn. Can we get this guy a breather in November? In mid-November, can we give him a little bit of his rest? Seriously, I agree with you. But that Laker game, just so mean. So mean and vicious.

They hate the Lakers so much. I asked Jamal Murray about this too. And he was like, yeah, no, like they came to our goal. Like a bunch of their fans are always invading our freaking arena and all of that. They have a disdain and disgust for that organization and they show it every time about just smacking them around. Crazy. I still think it's ridiculous. Am I wrong about the timing of this that Nicole, like Yokic was already an MVP already building a playoff resume that was pretty substantial by that point?

Basically one of the best postseason performers in the league and got. dinged on that top 75 players of all time list for like AD and Damian Lillard and some of those guys. Am I misremembering that? I don't remember who actually made that because that was bogus to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there was a level of skepticism around Yokes. I think was healthy and some of it was legitimate around like all this, you know, slow footy big and this new era of the NBA space and blah, blah, blah.

and people had a healthy skepticism, but I don't think any of those people, like, it's over. Like, you can't even, you got to be out your monkey-ass mind if you think AD, you know, at his best, has been a better player than Nicola Yokish. There's just no argument for that. And I love AD. Love him.

I would genuinely like to hear the argument from anyone out there who thinks another player has been better than Yokic this season. We talked about this on the last pod. I would love to hear the counter argument. because on lift, on impact, on everything you would look at a desire and a player, I feel like he's been that guy. And the Nuggets have not been the kind of team

that they want to be, or that anyone would want to be who wants to see them contend or who's interested in that. But it's not his fault. I'll tell you that much. Like, he's carrying any lineup he's a part of, including lineups that just don't have point guards in them.

Just like, Nicola, go out there, do this, carry everything around you all the time, 30-point triple doubles. It's preposterous. The biggest feather in his cap might be that he's making the, him in Westbrook combination work. Like, he kind of called the shot,

and there is a little bit of, like, chemistry forming on the pick and roll between the two of them, that's kind of interesting. I'm interested in Russell Westbrook again. That's his biggest fee. There we go. Wow. Just to put a button on this.

So the list was announced October 2021. Okay. So really before his first MVP season. So he didn't have an MVP. He didn't have the title. No, didn't he win in 21? He won 20. Oh, yeah, you're right.

So this would have been after his first one. You're right. Yeah. Which great. Like one MVP does not a career make. But if we're kind of penciling in players who are active based on what they might accomplish, I feel like he was right at the front of the list. Dames the guy.

Dames the guy where it's like. But he was a, Dame was critical to like the first half of that decade where he was going toe to toe with staff. So I see it, but you're right. That's a pretty big oversight. But as long as Bob Peta is here, we're going to. good. Fact.

Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Cliff Augustin for filling in on production. No pod on Thursday, so we'll be back on Monday as for usual. Until then, happy Thanksgiving. We'll talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com.

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