The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Preseason Power Rankings, Part 1 | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Breaking news: The Timberwolves (Timberwovles?) decided to fire GM Gersson Rosas after we finished recording, so Justin, Rob, and Wos hopped back on for a quick discussion on this developing story (0:45). Then they get into Part 1 of our NBA preseason power rankings with the eight worst teams in the league, starting with the Houston Rockets (8:50) and moving on to the Thunder (19:30), Magic (30:05), Cavaliers (37:50), Pistons (47:45), Kings (54:22), Timberwolves (1:01:00), and Spurs (1:09:35). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. This is JJ Jansy Steffsky, the host of New York, New York on the Ringer Podcast Network. And this is the show that never sleeps because New York City is the city that never sleeps. When it comes to your team's reaction, no matter the day, if it's a big event, if something's cooking, we got you covered. We got the best desk in town. We have your voicemails, your way to interact and get involved with the show. We're always bringing the fire and passion. Follow us on Spotify wherever you get in the podcast. Welcome to group chat.

We have some breaking news. Rob hit the siren. Thank you. Thank you. We previously recorded an episode in which we went through the eight worst teams of the upcoming NBA season, our first edition of the power rankings. But after we recorded, we got some late breaking news, bam, bramp, and all that. The Minnesota Timberwolves, or according to this relationship, police, the Minnesota Timber Wavils have fired Gerson Rosas. One of the teams that we actually

discussed later in this episode, you could probably hear that full discussion later, but was, seems like this one's coming out of nowhere. Are you surprised that our man, Gerson Rosas, a friend to every NBA writer in the nation, is gone so abruptly? I'm surprised, but at the same time, we shouldn't be surprised because there's a new regime in town, right? Like, they just bought the team. They paid a lot of money for it. They didn't hire Rojas, or Rosas, excuse me.

And so it's not, we shouldn't be surprised that, you know, they decided that they want to go in their own direction. That being said, this is kind of crazy, right? Like, they just hired a new coach in the middle of last season. And usually when a new GM comes in, they're going to want a new coach as well. like what like this sort of sets off a domino effect that's kind of crazy and you know also at the same time Chris Hein

who's a beat writer for the Star Tribune in Minnesota he tweeted this out he said there's been a building discord between Rosas and the rest of the front office and the organization that has been going on for months sources said the team decided to take action now before the season begins instead of letting that discourse linger

So while this may seem like a surprise, this has been building internally with the wolves for a while. Always a good sign when a week, less than a week before training can't start, you just can't take the discord anymore. Well, I'm always a good sign. The power through it here on the group chat podcast. I'll just say that right now. Well, it's also a good sign when your star player tweets out WTF in response to major breaking news about your franchise. not only WTF, but WTF dot, dot, dot, dot, that fourth dot, not typically part of an ellipses.

So you know that you put a little bit more thought to it. It was a little bit more of what the hell, you know? I think it's just three dots. I think you overstated the dots. My screen is playing tricks on me. Okay, so it's just a typical ellipsis. There's only so much that he is what the fucking here. No, I mean, you can look at it at this two ways.

I do think there's probably something to what was said about, like a new ownership kind of and want to insert their new guys. This is A-Rod, just, you know, getting rid of everything that isn't a Shark Tank product from the clubhouse, you know, just like, it's really putting their stamp on the new organization. On the other hand, this was released by Glenn Taylor, Minnesota, Timberwolves, and Link's owner. This is, like, from the desk of Glenn Taylor. So it could just be the case that, like, roses, like, pissed him off too much and you just had enough, which I think, like, is actually the worst possible.

outcome for this, that like, there was just some sort of rancor and you just couldn't get past it and you decided to fire them right before the eve of training camp, no? Well, it's just hard to extricate this news from the Wolves persistent place in the Ben Simmons conversation and what that could mean in this. And then, as we've been talking about, just the, the want and oftentimes need of new ownership groups to just completely change the trajectory of a franchise. Like, you don't buy this stuff to keep it the same. You don't spend this much money to keep a team the same. So what this means for Chris Finch, we'll have to wait and see. I mean, certainly this isn't a team that has done itself in a lot of favors organizationally as far as like being so good that

nobody's job is unsafe. They're a team that was going to be facing a lot of pressure this season to improve to be better. Clearly, the wolves got ahead of all that by just cleaning house up front. Seems hasty. Just the rollout of this news, the timing of it, very strange, but not entirely on timber wolves in that way. Look, if you want to spend this in some sort of positive, if you're a wolves fan, the knock on Glenn Taylor in the past is that he's been kind of an absentee owner, right? Like, you know, the opposite of a sort of meddling hands-on owner is that he just basically, he let the likes of David Kahn do whatever the hell he wanted for years.

Kevin McHale do whatever the hell he wanted for years. That was the knock in the past. at least with this regime, you can say to yourself, if you want to spin it positively, that they're paying attention, they got their eyes on the prize, they want to vet their own people, bring their own thing in and get this things rolling in the right direction. So I guess that's one way of looking at this as a good thing. Has shades of Ryan McDonough getting fired just before training camp or the season started

a couple of years ago? It's terrible timing. Look at that one of two ways. The sons were just in the NBA final. So perhaps this is the step back to take seven to ten steps forward eventually. On the other hand, I don't think this is a sign of a well-run, fully functional organization. And so we'll get into some of the nitty gritties of the wool specifics, which I think still hold true.

There's still a lot of roster questions, a lot of how they're going to fit into a full season of Chris Finch type of questions. But I don't know. Like, this doesn't start you off on the right foot. I don't know. It probably is going to be tough to recover from this, even if they do get everything right just on the court or who is even going to play on this team. Well, this is what we get,

because on the podcast you're about to hear, I would say we bordered on something approaching Timberwolves optimism. And this is what you get when you speak that kind of nonsense into the world. Is the wolves just rolling back? Same kind of stuff they always do. At least now, yeah, maybe hopefully it's a new day under the new ownership. Maybe they're able to get something going out of the ashes of all of this particular front office.

But it's, as you're saying, Justin, this is a tough thing to just like pick up and move on from at the start of a season. Like this will be the dominant story of Timberwolves training camp. Every player will be asked about it. It's going to roll into the season, especially if they hesitate to find a replacement

or they're not able to fill that spot right away. Then you're talking about, you know, a team that maybe more than any in the league right now needs to make trades to improve its roster and isn't in a position to make those trades right now because they don't have a general manager president of basketball operations. Yeah, I think the worry they have, just briefly, because we didn't touch on this later,

is that Carl Town sees this, and he actually wants out before they can import any more help. It seems like the past two years of the Rosas regime, however long that was, was built around trying to convince towns that this was a place to stay. He imported D'Angelo Russell, his friend. He's in trade talks with Ben Simmons, reportedly. Another guy from that basic age range, you know, Anthony Edwards. words, it just seemed like everything was designed to maximize towns. And you have to wonder, if these ellipsies continue on into the season, like, is he going

to jump the process? It doesn't matter about towns like showing up this year, becoming the superstar. Is he just going to ask out and decide to do that elsewhere? Will he drop the fourth dot ellipsies tweet at some point is what you're saying? It's true. All right. What you will hear now is what we record earlier in the day. It is our preseason group chat power rankings.

number 30 to, I believe, 23. You will hear immediately us talk about other things, including Wads' new relationship. So stay tuned. We'll be right back. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to GroupShat. I am Justin Vrier.

And today we are celebrating a big event over this weekend. And that is, of course, our Wadney Lambray going Instagram official with Adel, whatever her last name is, Adel London, Adel British. Congrats man. And clutch we trust. That's for sure. No, our friend Rob is now a married man. How's it feel?

It's all different from this side, you know? I'm had and I'm held. I'm in sickness and I'm in health. I'm the whole deal. There's a lot of insurance. A younger me used to greet news of my friends being married with congratulations and rest in peace. But I'm an older, more seasoned me and now I realize that love springs.

eternal and conquers all. And I'm very happy for you, Rob. You're hitting me, you're hitting me right in the chest. But you're right. I know, I know this is the version of Woz that now cries when he sees beautiful babies. Exactly. It's a new day. I'm different now. When he and Adel listened to her latest tracks, yeah. Rob, what was the, what was your entrance music? Did you go 96 Bulls intro song? Oh yeah. Just streaking down. We had the full PA announcer, the whole bit, spotlights. You got to go all up for these things. that was big in the early 2000. So I got to bring it back.

All right. So we have, what, four podcasts before we get to some actual NBA basketball in the 2021, 2021, 2022 season, which means we have to fill some time, which also means that we are going to rank all 30 teams in the NBA. I asked these fine gentlemen to send me their ballots. We all cast one to 30, and then we averaged them out. Intrepid producer, Sasha, broke a few. ties for us, but we'll get to that later on. So we're going to go from the bottom up. And for each team, I have prepared one existential question, which we can get into. So yeah, that's the bit. We'll be doing that for the next four podcasts. We'll still be talking about news along the way.

Shall we begin, my friends? Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. So number 30, so Rob and I actually, to pull back the curtain a little bit, had the same team. Was unfortunately ranked the Oklahoma City Thunder way above us. So which brought down or which brought up the average for the thunder, which means we're starting number 30 with the Houston Rockets. Was, do you want to first maybe back your claim that the Rockets, not the Thunder or the worst team in the league next season? I just think they're actively trying to be the worst team, right?

Like they're sitting John Wall until they find a trade partner or agreed to a buyout. Like it's a youth movement over there. And as we all know, the younger you are in the NBA, the more likely you are to suck. So, you know, it seems like what they're trying to do is lose. And that's why I thought they were the no-brainer as the worst team in the NBA. And then their best players, like, at least the Thunder could say, you know, my best player is Shea Gilgis Alexander. I still have Al Horford. I still have, like, actually, they don't have Al Horford.

But what I'm saying is like, even a Lou Dort. Like these guys are like obviously like Shea Gilgis was borderline third team all NBA type. He's projected to be a borderline all-star type. Lou Dort is an all-world defensive players. Offense is always coming along. Shouts to Haiti. And, you know, I just feel like they have better players who are further along in their development than the Houston Rockets do. Right.

The Rockets have a couple players who might be better. How much they actually play and how long they last on the Rockets is probably. the big question there. So here is my big question for the Houston Rockets. So Ben Simmons, our friend, is in the news just a little bit, especially lately. My question, Rob, and we'll start with you, now that we've had, what, a couple months to really process this, see the different like ripple effects from their choice to go with the Nets trade over the Sixers trade before the trade deadline in order to get James Harden, would you rather have Ben, Simmons right now and whatever picks and other stuff they would have thrown in rather than

the Nets picks. I think where it gets tough to weigh this is like, do they still get Jalen Green? Because if they still get Jalen Green, if they're still bad enough to get that pick, I really like what Simmons would look like with this group. I mean, if you have Simmons and Jalen Green and Christian Wood and you still make the Kevin Porter Jr. trade, I mean, they didn't have to give up anything to do that. They have J. Sean Tate. Like, that's an interesting place to start.

I think the problem is if they had traded for Simmons, he would have won them too many regular season games to do that. And so you'd be looking at, you know, maybe they're drafting six or something instead, and it's just a totally different world. So from that perspective, I mean, the picks were a decent value proposition from the start, all the picks they're getting from the Nets.

They're kind of banking on that 2025 to 2027 range and getting something there. I could see why you would do that. Personally, I'm kind of a Simmons guy in this context. And even if you just have Christian Wood, I like the way Simmons pairs with a big like that. Yeah, as down as I've been on Ben Simmons here and on other podcasts, one, KD signs an extension. So the nets are basically going to be relevant and good so long as he's dribbling the basketball for them.

And two, even if you want to project out to 2025 through 2027, you got to remember this front office put out competence while they had all their picks away to the Boston Celtics, Right. They have a track record of being a baseline level of pretty decent to good. So they have never bottomed out. And they've already shown in the past that they'll cobble together pieces. They'll find people on a scrap heap. They'll unearth, you know, gems from untrafted guys, G-League guys, late round guys. So with this, if it was another team, I'd be like, maybe. I think with this specific front office and their track record and maybe them transform.

Brooklyn into that type of destination where like, look, if you're the Lakers, do I really need draft picks all the time when people are angling to come to my team all the time? Like, I don't need to be as prudent and as smart in my long-term views when I'm the Lakers. Maybe the Nets think they're becoming that type of team where no matter what, people are going to find their way to Brooklyn because they love being at a glamour franchise like that. So yeah, I think the Simmons is a better asset in a vacuum than the Nets, than the U.S. that's draft package. Yeah, I mean, it's not just KAD, too, right?

Because Harden up for an extension, expected to sign one. Kyrie Irving, if he passes the vaccination requirements in order to sign one, we'll probably sign one. I mean, maybe far down the road, we're talking pick swaps in like 2027. That one becomes super valuable. But by that point, are we sure, like, most of the entire Rockets front office is still going to be there? It's a tough one.

And I think it probably comes down to two things. whether you'd want the Nets pick package over Ben Simmons, it's that you want to keep getting more young draft picks, like a Jalen Green, in order to build some version of the Katie, Russ, Hardin Thunder. And also it seems like there's this big bet on Kevin Porter being something, because not only did they pass on Ben Simmons, but now they're kind of basically shoeing John Wall to the side

in order to give Porter reps. now, maybe that's just to like see what they have. Maybe that's to actively get worse. But I'm curious, Rob, do you have any thoughts on Porter Jr? Because it seems like they're excited about that backguard of him and green. I'm a little bit more mixed. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the secondary question, right? You hit the existential one.

This is just kind of what their life is going to look like for the next season. Is Kevin Porter Jr. an actual full-time point guard? Or is that just kind of a lottery experiment? Is that just a thing you put a guy through to develop him, to check him out, to, you know, kick the tires on his. game, I don't think that's really who he is. If you're thinking about, like, who can run a playoff level offense? Is Kevin Porter Jr. ultimately going to be that kind of player?

I don't think so. I think he's probably more of a secondary ball handler type. And frankly, a guy who we just need to see in more competitive settings, do even have an idea if he's going to be that at a high level. So within the confines of what they have now, it makes all the sense in the world to kind of put Wall, John Wall, in his corner, and check out the young prospects. because fundamentally, they have a lot of interesting, discrete talent on this team.

The question is whether any of it fits at all. We just don't know how any of these pieces are going to cobble together into an actual basketball team yet. Yeah, I mean, the alternate timeline was, is actually pretty interesting. Because let's say they go with Simmons, and they could have just easily sat him

just like they sat wall. You have Simmons. Let's say they put wall to the side regardless. It's Simmons, Green, Eric Gordon, Christian Wood, and then fill in the blank, Deshaun Tate or whoever. That's like a pretty fun, like, play-in team. Like, how good is that team had they gone in that direction?

Yeah, I think you hit it on the head. They probably attempt the seed fighting for the 11th seed because at this point in Eric Gordon's career, you know, not just production-wise, but just staying on the floor. It's obvious that it's been pretty tough for him the last few seasons. And, you know, as much as I like Christian Wood

and all these other guys, they're probably, with all, of these young cats, they're probably not going to be very good. But Ben Simmons is proven to be a quality regular season guy. Like, he makes your team very good in the regular season. So, yeah, probably on that fringe 10-11 scene, but definitely not firmly entrenched in the playoff picture at all because, again, there's Eric Gordon injury away, Christian Wood injury away from being just pure lottery drek, you know.

So I don't think that they did, they would have up their chances of not vying for good ping pong balls by that much by just having Ben Simmons on this team. I think it bodes well, though, that even the teams that are going to be at the bottom of our ranking here, the Rockets included, are going to be cool teams to watch. Like there's a lot of interesting young players

where things are getting probably a little more dispiriting is just above that. Teams with, you know, stars who are languishing on bad teams, teams that can't quite crack the play in bracket. But this like 30 to 27 range that we have working here, the Rockets at the head of that line, I'm really curious to watch them and just see what they look like. Well, I'm glad you said that,

because the next team on our list is definitely going to challenge that premise, and that is number 29, the Oklahoma City Thunder, who are interesting. I'm not sure I could really name half of this roster. They're definitely going to be starters who, I'll be honest, probably didn't watch more than five minutes of last year. Isaiah Roby takes. Anyone please just like jump in here?

Jeremiah Robertson Earl. Don't know who that guy is. So like it also seems like, you know, Poku plus Josh Giddy is like the start of a really low-rated CW comedy. You know? Here's my question for the Thunder, Rob,

because you seem so high on these lower-rated teams. Is this a more egregious tank job? than the process. Well, first of all, I mean, just to reveal the depths of my depravity, I remember during last season texting our guy, J. Kyle, man, asking if he had any Isaiah Roby takes, because I was kind of, I was starting to get a little bullish on Roby. I think I even hit the limits of how invested Kyle can be in a fringe NBA prospect. So we've bumped up against that wall. I mean, look, I just like the mobility. I like, I like the, you know, the forward masquerading as a center type.

It speaks to me. Yeah. But as to your actual question, it really depends on how long this goes on. Because what distinguished the process was not that they lost a lot once. It was that they lost a lot for a long time. And they left a void in the process in terms of the messaging that was then filled by pearl clutching and concern trolling and outright disgust and all this stuff. Like the Thunder is just getting started with this stuff. So we'll have to see what their next two and three years look like.

But, I mean, is what happened in Philly or even what's happening here in OKC that much more offensive or that much worse than what's gone down in like, you know, Minnesota or Sacramento over the last couple of decades? This is just a team retooling in the way that they think they should. Yeah, but the thing is they, the process Sixers never had anybody as good as Shay on there, right? And OKC was doing some shenanigans with Horford and Shea down the stretch of the year. And it's kind of like this is where it begins to get a little ugly, where it's like, what are we actually doing here? I get that you want to play the percentages and your ping pong balls. But like, how do we, on the one hand, you know, some of us here in the media say what Ben Simmons is doing is sort of beyond the pale and nasty that he's holding out because he's,

wants to go to another team. But then when OKC just keeps their best player out of games for the chance to maybe draft the next draft bust, it's like, I don't know, like, it's weird to me, right? And so it becomes, it starts to become a little clumsy, especially, you know, when we get to, when we get to March and early April, it's like, woof, what is the shenanigans that we start to see? but yeah, I think they'll be pretty bad on their own. I know it's very early,

but I saw Josh Giddy in person in Summer League, and I was like, I don't know about this one. Those curls were flopping. We'll see, we'll see. But hey, when we do get to March, though, that just means we get 20 shots a game for Alexei Pukoshevsky. So we all win in the end. It got really ugly after the All-Star break for O KC,

because they were doing way too well. Like, it wasn't just Horford. It wasn't just SGA who were sitting down. It was like Theo Maladon had like a really good game and then he all of a sudden had a hangnail for 10 games or, uh, so I don't know. So just to provide some context here, process, uh, 19 wins the first year, particularly bad. Then 18, then 10, then 28. OKC with 22.

So we're like kind of in a range there, but they did do a little bit better. Um, first year net rating for the process, however, was a minus 10. okayc minus 10.6. So I think it's been about as bad. And I think the case for OKC getting to the level of the process is like I think they're going to be worse than last year because they were still cycling through vets

who like at the very least they were trying to rehab their value. Like Horford didn't play a lot. I don't know if George Hill played a single game there. But they, I mean, they still had a lot of guys there. I think they're going to be turning the keys over more to the Pocos and to the Josh Giddies to play through them. And as Rob said, young people really have nothing to contribute to society.

So I think it could be worse this year. Yeah, no, they're going to be really bad in terms of win-loss. There's no question. And there's not really a potential for them to click in some kind of synergistic way where all of a sudden they're going to go off a huge run. Like, Shea is really good. Everything else, there's just glaring holes. even within individual,

like even their more reliable contributors have huge holes in their games. The Lou Dorts and the Pocos and, you know, the Darius Beasley's. These guys are decent, you know, decent, interesting NBA players, but I'm not looking to stitch all those pieces together

into a winning team right now. Well, the Shea question is actually a good one because he's probably the difference, if we're talking about with the process. Like, they didn't have a Shea during the process era until Joel and Bid came back from Qatar, basically. like where Ben Zinans came back from, what was it, a foot at that point? So how good is Shea is, I think, my question here.

Is he a guy you're building the team around Waz? Or is he ultimately destined to be the number two, number three guy on a very good team? To me, I've always kind of felt like he was at best, a number two, more likely a number three guy. But I'm admittedly a lot lower on Shea than a lot of people. A lot of people pencil him in as like, he's an all-star. obvious all-star kind of guy as a ball-dominant perimeter guy who can punish you one-on-one, right? His shot has, to his credit, basically gotten way better every single season that he's been in the league. He's gotten better at playmaking. He's gotten better at slashing to the

rim, drawing a little bit of contact. I would have loved to see him get a little bit stronger over the years, and maybe he's added that. Maybe he'll be one of those 10 pounds of muscle guys when we get to a training camp next year. But I mean, next month. But we'll see. I don't know. To me, yeah, to me, he is a third second guy. I don't ever see him being a number one.

Like, I don't ever, I don't see him the way I saw Devin Booker before his breakout. Like, that seemed obvious to me that that was going to happen. I don't feel that way about Shay, but I could be wrong. I'll say this about Shay. not necessarily a swole guy, but a guy who loves not wearing a shirt. Like, every photo of him this summer was him wearing like a leather jacket without a shirt underneath him. And I have to say, like, you have to have Hutzpah in order to pull that off. But it's certainly a choice.

Rob, is that what you wore for your engagement party? Well, I was going to ask if he inspired you at all. I mean, you seem to be really taken with that look. I know. I wish I could pull it off. The pandemic didn't do me any favors in that regard. where are you on Shay though Rob? I'm similar to Waz, I think, in terms of secondary, maybe tertiary guy, you know, alongside some other really good stars is probably his ultimate destiny.

But he's one of those players who does inspire a wide range of opinion. I mean, there was some spirited debate in ringer slack as to, you know, Shea's ultimate destiny recently. And we should get charks on the pod sometimes to talk about him too. I think he has an interesting opinion on Shea. But for me, it's just about like, where can you keep? his game comfortable without overstretching it. And I think we're starting to bump up against some of the limits of that from a playmaking standpoint, as Waz was saying, he's taking steps, and that's great.

And at this point in his career, you want to stretch it as far as it can go to see what he can be. But is he ultimately going to be a guy who's a massive possession user on a really good team? I don't think that's best for his skill set. But he's really good, really good, really flexible, and has some, like, shake and juice to his game that not a lot of people have. Right. And I think what's tantalizing about guys like Shea, it's like, all right, he's about 666, 6.67. He's shown an aptitude for ball hand.

And, like, think about Andrew Wiggins. And now his handle has just never been at the level of what Shea is right now. And what that would have did for his game. But I think Andrew Wiggins had a different level of just raw athleticism and explosiveness that Shea doesn't possess. Right. I think what is enticing about Shea is all of these tools, his size, his length. He's shown ballhandle. His shooting has improved.

He's shown an ability with a blow-by ability, a first-step ability. But I don't know that he's ever shown himself to be elite at any of those things, right? He's a jack-of-all-trades sort of guy. Not going to call him a master of none. But I'm just saying, I don't know that he's ever been elite at all of the things that he's flashed, which is, it gets everybody excited. Like, when you're a basketball nut, like, it's like, hold on. This guy, in that one body, he can do all.

all of these different things. He can even give you a little playmaking now. But again, he hasn't reached the elite level of any of those things, in my opinion yet. The flip side of that, though, is that he could be the type of guy

who will fit well with whoever they draft. Yes. Right? Like, if the Thunder luck into a better draft pick, maybe next year, and they get that Pete Davidson, Kevin Durant kid

that everyone seems really high on. Like, they would fit together particularly well. You know what I'm talking about? I have no clue who you're talking about. Hogan, I had a feeling that's who he was talking about. I'm like, Pete Davis is, wait, which part of him is Pete? And like, I'm like, is he black or what's what?

Like, is he a comedian? Like, I was trying to figure out which part of each guy. He is. He is. He is. This is the worst scathing report I've ever heard. Look him up and tell me that you won't see that as soon as possible. No, you're right, though, that he's kind of the perfect star for a team like the Thunder.

because I don't even know what a player would look like that he wouldn't fit next to. And that's an exciting place to start from. Right. All right. Let's move on to a team that has a much bigger task ahead of them trying to fit players together because somehow they keep just adding centers to this roster.

We're talking number 28, the Orlando Magic. My question, which center will win the Kemberch Memorial, Big Men Off? Which is to say, who will feel? finally play center for the Orlando Magic. Your contestants, Rob Mahoney, won Wendell Carter Jr. Momba, who I believe was his draft class mate. Robin Lopez signed this offseason in order to do hook shots and other cool stuff there. And Jonathan Isaac, who I honestly forgot when I was putting this list together until like 30 minutes into this exercise.

Who is your runaway favorite? I mean, extremely rude on Jonathan Isaac, but it's been a while. it feels like Wendell Carter Jr. is the only answer, right? I mean, there's still some Bamba hope, I guess. I know it springs eternal. I know, you know, Mo Bamba, he's only 23 years old. His minutes in his role, they've been, you know, pretty inconsistent over his time in the NBA. But all of the evidence we have so far, to me suggests he might be just a guy.

And the, you know, the faster we settle in with that, the better off we're all going to be. But I don't know that Wendell Carter Jr. is any great shakes. You know, it's really hard to take his time in Orlando so far, brief as it was, at face value, just because the magic were so bad and so irrelevant by the time he got there. But of the options, that feels like the one. Yeah. I want to be, look, I want to be positive about Mobamba because, you know, he is a New York City guy and New York City basketball is basically dying on the vine here. but look, there has been no proof of concept with him, none. Like, what has he done in the NBA that should get us excited about what he could possibly be in the future?

He's shown us nothing. Like, there's nothing to point at. There's not like, well, he did have a stretch of games where he made a bunch of shots or while he did show like some rim protecting ability. Well, he did, like, nothing. There's been nothing to write home about. So it's hard for me to say that he's. going to emerge as the center option here.

Robin Lopez, to me, seems like the safest bet, just that he's always playing. And even last year when he played, he gave the wizard some modicum of rim protection and reliability and consistency at that position. But to me, it has to be Jonathan Isaac. I feel like if he's going to be optimized in what he's shown specifically defensively as a switchability, type of guy, somebody that's able to challenge people vertically when they do get to the cup, he has to play center. That's what's going to make him the best version of himself. And you got to let him prove that he can do that, even coming off of a tough ACL injury. So to me, it is

Jonathan Isaac. Yeah, Robin Lopez is probably the pick for the Steve Clifford magic, but for the Jamal Mosley magic, I think it's Wendell or it's, you know, hopefully healthy Jonathan Isaac. Well, I mean, that's the question with Isaac. Like, what is his best position? And I think It's center. It's center. Yeah. Okay. And so if you're going with, like, we want to optimize our most talented players, do you just put him at center, even though you're so loaded there?

It's really a question of like development versus like trying to make sense of the roster. Well, I think it runs counter to his health situation. Like it would be incredibly strenuous on his body, just like it is on all undersized bigs to ask them to just like roll in and play a five full time. And so to do that off injury, that might be a lot for him at. of the gate. I want to ask you guys, though, about Moamba specifically. What was the idea of him when he got drafted? What was he, like, what was a good Moamba supposed to look like? A three and D five, right? He was supposed to protect the rim and have enough stretch in order to play out on the perimeter. Unfortunately, I don't think he's been able to do much besides be tall and like grab the ball as

soon as it comes off the rim. It's a tough one. I think we were a little high on Chris Dap's fumes at that point. Great point. Got you. Yeah, and we were talking a lot about stretch fives as a thing in order to optimize some of these fours who didn't want to play five. I will say, David Griffin hasn't had a lot of success here, but he once told me that Bamba before the draft was going to be a bust because he's so long and not filled out enough because his frame is going to be so tough to fill out that he wouldn't have the core strength in order to play center. So one of the only victories of the past five years for David Grypton, unfortunately, that's not going to do him much. good unless Bamba gets released or something and he still remains the Pelicans GM. Here's a curveball to throw at you in this whole race though. I was cruising the athletics, El Orlando Magic section and there was a piece most recently

written with the title, has RJ Hampton gotten taller? If so, what does that mean for his future? So could be a dark horse here. This is what we have to do with the magic literally. every single season since Dwight Howard has left from the team. It's just been misery for that franchise. And, you know, and some people say, well, it's been mismanaged, whatever. I think the Orlando Magic are why I can't get excited about assets, assets, draft picks, draft picks,

the picks, picks, lottery, this. I'm like, bro, they have picked in the lottery every single damn year. They have all like sort of guys with blue chip pedigrees and backgrounds as far as where they were drafted, where they ranked in high school, et cetera, et cetera. And it's done nothing for them, right? Like, I don't, you know, it's hard. That's why it's hard for me to get excited about what Presti's got going on in OKC. He's like, all right, draft a bunch of more bombers and, you know, I'm supposed to get excited about it. Or even a Jonathan Isaac, who is a nice piece.

Like nobody thinks like this guy's going to change your franchise's life, you know, because of him reaching his peak potential. It's just, it's tough to watch, man. And we haven't even mentioned Markell Fultz. Right. That's actually the case for Ben Simmons over the Nets picks as well. Like, just having a Ben Simmons in the hand is better than like rolling the dice hoping that you're going to get. Yeah, you might end up with a Moamba or a Wendell Carter. A bird in the hand is worth three in the bush.

I fucking love those birds. Well, I think some of the exceptions to this is Jalen Suggs. Like, I'm pretty excited to see him in this fit. And I think him and Cole Anthony just seemed like good vibes, all-stars to me. I think those guys are going to make the magic a lot more fun. I think it's going to be a lot more fun to play on that team with guards like that, who are tenacious, who just have kind of a vivacity to their game. So I'm really curious to see how all that works out.

But there's no question this team has a long, long way to go, a long, long way to develop a lot of these guys and they're going to need to make moves and trades to consolidate and figure out of their talent base. But there's something interesting going on that wasn't there previously. And between Fultz and you got RJ Hampton in here, there's just a lot going on.

Vibacity. I like it. Thanks. You don't hear that about the magic. Yeah. So, yeah, they do seem more interesting. To Rob's earlier point, some of these worst teams are moderately interesting. They've got guys, you know?

Cole Anthony, other guys. So we'll see. All right, 27, the Cleveland Cavaliers was the question here. Who's more likely to be traded? Kevin Love or John Wall? I think you got to go with John Wall in the sense that, one, as overpaid as he is, he still has an easily identical NBA skill set. He's still, I think, a starter-level NBA point guard.

Of course, depending on fit, depending on team will dictate his level of effectiveness. But I think John Wall is obviously still probably an NBA start with. Kevin Love like, what is he doing for me? Right. What does he do for me? Yeah, he's probably a five and a horrible one at that. Right. Like he's horrible on defense.

Yes, he is stretchy. And, you know, he used to be an elite rebounder. He ain't that no more. I just don't know what the hell Kevin Love does for me on a real team, right? Presumably, if you're trading for him, it's because you want to be, like, better. You want to upgrade your talent. I don't know that you're necessarily doing that with him, right? I think Kevin Love would actually make sense on the Orlando Magic next to Jonathan Isaac or somebody like that, right?

where he allows them to on offense, play where they need to play and then defense, you could just kind of pray for it. But like, look, John Wall makes way more money, but John Wall is still obviously an NBA player.

I think what the problem is, is what Kevin Love does on this team is stand in the way of other young guys getting minutes and touches and reps. And I think they, the Cavs just have more incentive to move him than the Rockets do with Wall. You know,

the Rockets and Wall, clearly have whatever arrangement they have where he's just not going to show up and play. Love, it seems like, is going to be a part of this until they find some trade for him or a buyout for him. Maybe there's a motivation in that to move him along sooner than later. I think the biggest difference is that love has been the bigger dick, you know? Like, he's actively been pretty, like, an asshole about a lot of things for several years. And I do think there's something to someone wearing on an organization. for years on end, as opposed to the wall who's been there during a pandemic, you know,

they came to an agreement in air quotes and he's just going to kind of hang out. I think having love loom over this entire thing, say that he's not going to have a buyout might actually force the cab's hand a little bit. I think it speaks to my wedding brain that when you started that sentence, love is. I thought you were going to get to some profound point. And instead, we just got to Kevin Love is kind of a dick. Love is being a bigger dick. Yeah, that's true.

The Cavs kind of did this to themselves, too. I still don't totally understand the Lori Marketing and deal. What was it? Wait, hold on. Before the Lori Marketing deal, what was that Kev Love extension? That was absurd at the time. Right. That's one of the few contracts that I love where it was never a good contract.

No. Another example of this. I'm trying to think. Westbrook was still like coming off of MVP theorem. So that one was fine. Gilbert Arena's classic example of a contract that was never. good. But currently, there's only two years 60 million on the love deal, which makes the math work a little bit easier if you're trying to strike a trade versus Wall who has two years

19.17 million. So it is a little bit more flexible. But to get back to the Lorry thing, I don't know. It just seemed like compounding the problem that already existed with having Evan Mobley being this future center who is a little too thin to play center, but you gave $100 million to Jared Allen. And so it seems like they have now four, four, five types. And I don't know if a lot of them put together make a great combination. Like if you're trying to win, I guess Lori and Allen would be the best combination. I guess if you're trying to develop Lori and Mowbly would be the best combination.

I don't know. Rob, do you see like a path forward there? Well, and they gave up Larry Nance Jr. to do that deal. So they gave up Larry Nance Jr. to pay Lari Marketing, I think it's $67 million over three years. Foof. It's fine. I mean, you could do worse

for a team in the Cavs position, but giving up a player as good as Nance, so I think it's just better than Markanin. I don't love that. And so in the position it puts them in,

especially as you're saying, vis-a-vis finding minutes for all these young guys. Like, Markan is a less versatile player in terms of the positions on the floor he can occupy. So he really puts you in a bind with that stuff.

Obviously, they're hoping long-term that Mowbly and Allen can be a thing. The question with that is, Is there a passable defense anywhere in this combination of players that they currently have? Because that was the really big issue. The really big question of the Garland, Sexton backcourt is can you survive defensively with these guys? So far, the answer is no.

They were a really bad defensive team last year. Mowgli would be ostensibly a gesture at trying to improve that over the long term. We'll see. Isaac O'Coro was kind of an attempt to fill that need. He got thrown into the fire, just a murderer's row of defensive assignments last season. I think he really competed. He tried hard, but he's just in over his head. So, like, how this team finds a way to manage a cohesive team defense, that's the big question with those bigs. And can, like, can those guys be your backbone in that way? I don't know yet. See, your question is the defense.

My question is the offense. Because I think about a team that made something similar to this work in the Atlanta Hawks. Yeah, drink at home. I'm talking about the Hawks again. But, like, so Capella, basically is that classic five dude. And John Collins is your Swiss Army knife type of four, five. I can even guard certain threes. I'm stretching my game out a little bit. I'm basically, I'm very versatile in how I can be used. But the person who's orchestrating that is Trey Young,

who's probably got the best vision and understanding of NBA offense, like as good as anybody in the whole. whole league. Whereas in Cleveland, you're asking sex town to navigate this? I don't think so. And you're talking about guys who, you know, we talked about Kevin

Love being a dick the whole time. Kevin Love is beaning basketballs at the head of Sexton and Garland because these dudes don't pass. So how are you going to supposed to navigate offense with that big man rotation when your guards are those type

of players? That's where I'm really worried. Like, how are you manufacturing quality looks with that type of big man rotation? The difference between Capella and Allen, too, is something that I think gets lost on a lot of people where Capella to me is a guy that's very easy to take for granted in that kind of role man, Tyson Chandler type role. And Alan is... Catches the ball. Great rebounder, like knows exactly who he should be.

Alan is like most of those things, but not quite all the way. And if you're not quite all the way, your role in the NBA is kind of. to tenuous. Like, you may not be able to play in some matchups. You just might not be the kind of guy that Clint Capella is for the hawks. So if Alan can get to that kind of level, that would be huge for them. But yeah, there's no question their guard play needs to improve in terms of

just how it runs the offense. I think this could be kind of a cool year for Darius Garland in that way. I, you know, last season I would say I kind of tilted on the axis of, am I more of a Sexton or more of a Garland guy to the extent that that axis exists. To more of the Garland side, I just think

as a playmaker, I like some of the stuff that he sees and does. He's small, but I like the angles he reads. So if we're talking about, like, the attributes that could prop up the calves as a winning team somewhere down the line, I like that, and it makes a little more sense to me as opposed to, you know, the tenacity of the way that Sexton scores. Let me ask this question. Does this starting unit make more sense if Colin Sexton plays a backup role? And he just becomes your second unit, Jason Terry, type of guy.

So you allow Garland to run the office. A coral slides up to two, which is more of his natural position. You hope he shoots a little bit better. And then I guess you just fill the three with Chetty Osmond. There's a pretty clear pathway to Lori Market and being stretched as the three, like pretty quickly if they want to win games. And it gets really ugly, really quickly. But like, you could pretty much put that as a placeholder why they got rid of Larry Nance,

who could have actively filled that like to that three, four role. I don't know. But that makes a little bit more sense overall. I think Larry Nance just never developed that type of reputation with executives for whatever reason. I think the dorks like us love Larry Nance. And what he brings just his positional versatility, his ability to, like, guard people. You know what I'm saying? I just don't think teams see him the way we see him in the sense that he fits next to so many types of players, man.

And when you're trying to win and basically winning at the highest level is all about, about matchups and dictating where your mismatches are and eliminating holes positionally. This guy seems like a very valuable piece, but the problem is the calves are so nowhere close to that type of team, right? They're just trying to figure out, do we have good players at all on this roster, right? And so, you know, look, throwing Lori marking in at the wall and hoping he sticks at the three. I mean, like, what are we doing here, people?

Like, what is going on here? All right. Let's speed through some of these other teams here because we got a couple to get through. 26, the Detroit Pistons, a team that, like, talking about bad teams, we're excited to see. I'm mildly optimistic about watching a Pistons game, which I couldn't say for the past five to ten years, maybe. It's been a very long time, but Kate Cunningham was really interesting. at Summer League. I'm excited to see what he could do with some of these Sadiek Bay,

Jeremy Grant type of players. But the question, of course, Rob, of course, is should Killian Hayes, the number seven pick, I believe, from the previous draft, start or come off the bench? You're just trying to move everyone to the bench right now. You're demoting everybody.

It would help a lot of people. Most people need to take a seat. I'll just say that in life. My counter question to you would be why. Like, you get 100 possessions-ish in an NBA game. Is there really not room for two young guys to eat on a team that doesn't have an entrenched star who's just going to take up all this space?

So it honestly becomes more of an existential or a philosophical question because it's do you want to give Cade Cunningham the ball, which is probably what he's going to do full time and probably what he's best at? Or do you want to spend some time, give him some different looks, play him off ball, hope he develops that end of things.

And then you can see what you have more with killing Hayes. I think that is the answer, but I also think that's just as easy as saying like, you know, just give Kate the ball, right? Because there are a lot of possessions, yes, but it's not like those are the only two guards they have. And they also have young guys who they're going to want to get into the mix, Frank Jackson, Sabin Lee, those type of guys. And while like they don't rise to the priority of O. Hayes or Cunningham, like, you need to play other guys.

I do think like it's going to be a little bit of a choice, at least at some point. Like if they get into crunch time situations, like what do you do? Do you play them together, for instance? Yeah, there definitely could be games where, you know, killing Hayes is not on the court in crunch time. That's a pretty easy thing to imagine. But I think the appeal of his game is that he can do stuff with the ball and he can defend and he can potentially, you know, facilitate and do some of this other stuff too. His shot needs to come around if he's going to be an off ball player next to a Kate Cunningham.

but I think both of them are flexible enough that you at least want to see what you've got and see if this is a real backcourt versus, you know, Kate Cunningham and his sidekick. Yeah, it's one of those things where somebody tells you, like, no, I really, really want this thing and you know it's not going to work out for them, but you just do it anyway so that they could see it for themselves.

Sometimes, you know, you just have to do the thing so that it's on tape for everybody to see, like, look, see? We tried it, and it's not going to work. That's what I think that Killian Hayes as ball handler, possession soaker, pick and roll initiator. That ain't going to work. So you're alluding to the DeAndre Jordan. You know, Steve Nash is going to start DeAndre Jordan for a 10-game situation. Exactly.

Exactly. The same exact thing. And because I don't know. I don't know what proof we have, again, of Killian Hayes showing himself to be this, you know, ball handling savant. He's just not shown that at all. But at the same time, what's the point of not doing it this season? This is going to be another developmental season. And so, you know, give him ball.

Let's see what he has. Let's see what type of juice he has. But at the same time, you know, I think there's something to development of a culture around a team. And you can only give so many minutes to a guy in a position that he doesn't deserve before it becomes, all right, what are we doing here? Right? What's acceptable on the court? Like, are we just going to let guys just be bad at what we've asked them to do and still continue to give them minutes and opportunities? I think that's a delicate balance for a young team when it comes to development and developing good actual habits and good accepted practices as far as like, all right, this is what earns you minutes. This is what we deem to be success on this team and success being like actual production. Right. So that's a nice tightrope that they got to do.

but in the beginning, let Killian Hayes do what he does. I just don't see it for him in that capacity. All right. No more, Rob? Honestly, they feel like a pretty simple team in terms of their outlook, what their roster looks like.

They have good players, but do we really need to debate what Jeremy Grant should be in the context of this team at this point? I think to the extent that anyone needs a shout out on this roster who's probably a little underloved, underserved, Isaiah Stewart is a good NBA player.

I think people are going to start to see that as, you know, with a passer like Cade, as Killian Hayes came, hopefully improves. You know, even just like playing with a guy like Corey Joseph, who's like a dependable veteran table setter. Those guys are all going to make Isaiah Stewart look even better. Here's my question with the Pistons. We can just do this briefly. Could they be better than a bottom five team this year? Because they do have a lot of intriguing guys, like hitting past the Hayes and Cunningham situation. Like, Sadee Bay is a pretty good 3&D wing.

type. Jeremy Grant is an established 20 point a game score wherever that's worth. Who will be better with someone like Cade setting him up? And Stewart's another guy. They have stuff here. And I could see them blowing past a low projection. Like Kelly Olinick, a guy who played really well for the Rockets for whatever that's worth. They have stuff. I think the argument against is that even if you just look at the

East, so many of the bottom teams in the East or the teams that were not great have all kind of taken a step forward for one reason or another. And so they just get caught in that glut where, you know, we'll get into these next teams that we have ranked ahead of them. But all those teams just have like a couple more reliable veterans or, you know, top level coaching. They'll have something to speak for them in a way that I think the Pistons are so trying to figure out who they are. So trying to figure out how all this is going to work. And so unless, you know, if Cade has a Luca Donchich like rookie season, then maybe we can revisit that, you know, we can table until then. But otherwise,

I think they're going to be pretty bad and they're going to be fine with that. Wait, wait, wait. Oh, you said, K, you said K, I thought you said, hey, so I was like, wait a minute, hold on. Hold on a second. Hold on. I know you're high on this kid, but you can't be that high.

You might be Snoop high talking like that. Well, speaking of a team dealing with the wreckage that Luca Dantius had wrought, the Sacramento Kings, number 25, a team that is perpetually, trying to make it into the play-in game, but sadly has not been able to do so or even get into the mix there

the past couple years before the playing tournament. Was the question for the Kings, who lasts longer this season in Sacramento, buddy healed or Marvin Bagley? Probably Marvin Bagley simply because, or this might be a trick question because they might be a package deal at this point, but simply because

he's been terrible. Like, he's just been terrible. He's been one of the worst defensive bigs in the entire league, basically since he's gotten drafted. There's been no market improvement at that point, to that end, excuse me. And so he stinks. You know, buddy healed, you know, you can say whatever you want about him. He is a starting level shooting guard in the NBA. He's an elite shooter.

he has a versatile way of getting his shots off, whether it be off the screens, he can make it off the dribble and pick and roll. Like, this guy has an easily identifiable elite NBA skill. Marvin Bagley's just been out-and-out bust. There's no two ways about it. Like, he doesn't project as a surefire starter at his position. He's obviously not perennial all-star like one Luca Donchich. He hasn't shown, you know, what we saw in the playoffs for me. Aiton where it's like, no, no, this is a way above average guy at his position.

Not even like, oh, he's definitely one of the 30 best centers in the league. No, he's like in the top 15 right now, right? Bagley ain't done any of that, right? So, yeah, he's more likely to get moved because, again, he's the worst player. I mean, he's less likely, excuse me. I agree with Woz on the merits, but let me Galaxy brain this for a second. if Bagley's market is so bad could the kings be incentivized to move on like the first

remotely not awful offer that they get versus with Buddy Healed if there's you know he's an attractive player there could be more of a market that they can play until the deadline right and while I think those kings are definitely going to have to deal with their guard glut like probably soon um if not just like this season at some point it does make the roster, the roster makes a little bit more sense if you do some sort of three guard lineup

and just move Harrison Barnes to the four to soak up those baggly minutes. Like that's probably their ideal configuration based on this roster as it is constructed. And so like, yeah, I could see where you just say like, Buddy Heald actually plays basketball well. So let's like, let's just like stick with him for a little while.

But on the other hand, like, I do think the guard glott is a thing that probably has to be addressed. Like, not only do you have Halliburton, you have Fox, you have healed for as long as he's going to be that. Now you have Davian Mitchell. I don't know, Rob, do you see like an easy solution there? Is it just like you trade healed because he's the oldest, most expensive guy there?

Well, not most expensive. I guess Fox is the most expensive, but most expensive among the guys you would want to get rid of. There's not an easy solution. And I mean, there's a reason why we talk about this team and think about them first and foremost as a trade candidate, whether it's healed or Bagley or Harrison Barnes, whatever it is. This is a team that still has so much to,

resolve and they're at a place in the Western Conference pecking order where I would like to see them have a way to get into the play and race and it just seems like they're going to get boxed out of it just by the sheer number of teams that are ahead of them. I'd love to see Deere and Fox get a chance to have a John Morant kind of showcase because he's really good. Fox is really good. He just doesn't have the infrastructure around him to succeed right now. And so, you know, Jah plays on a team that's a top 10 defense. Fox was on the worst defensive team in the NBA last season. If you give him that kind of, that kind of model, a team that doesn't even have elite, elite defensive potential or personnel, but just like has a lot of guys who are well coached and play hard

and know their roles. Maybe the Kings can be good at some point. I just don't see how they get there in two moves. This still seems like a longer term project to me. Yeah, and I think there's something about the psychic toll of this sort of rudderless team, right? When you think about OKC, when they stink it up this year, nobody's actually going to be down about it because it's like, this was kind of the plan, right? So there's no reason to be down about it, but when you're supposed to be playing for the playing game,

as Rob said, and you just continue to be a bottom feeder in the league, I just think that takes a psychic toll on these young guys, right? And to where it becomes a little bit more toxic than it would in other places where losing is expected and is part of a long-term plan that's going to get you in a direction, hopefully, of contention. Minnesota, excuse me, not Minnesota. Sacramento, I just don't like what they're doing, the direction they're going.

I don't like how their pieces fit. It's tough. It's tough. I would say this, in defense of Sacramento, that it does seem like they're trying to target guys who can establish a culture of guys who, A, don't want out as soon as humanly possible. and B, who will play some defense. And I think they've had at the very least some success with that going Fox, Halliburton, Mitchell.

The roster might not be an easy fit, but at the very least, it seems like they targeted the type of guys who could help turn this around. And like, I do think bad teams are the type of teams that talk about changing the culture. And oftentimes what you actually need are good players. But I do think Sacramento considering what a waste dump it's been for decades now, one of the worst teams in sports for decades.

I do think that matters a little bit more there. And so perhaps that's one thing going in the right direction for them. Well, and Rishon Holmes is part of that too. Like a great off the bargain bin kind of fined for them who, I mean, really it was the only thing standing between them and just total defensive oblivion a lot of the time last season. Alex Lenn would be penciled in as the starter for this team like two years ago in the Vlade era. And they would be hoping they would have paid him a lot of money

and they would have been hoping he would come through. and be the savior, even though they already have like four other centers on the roster. They still have many centers on this roster, but Alex Len is at least Pencilden as the backup or the third stringer. So there's that, I guess, silver lining for the Sacramento Kings. Sure. There you go. We're a positive podcast.

Number 24. This is not a positive question, unfortunately, for the Minnesota Timberwolves. Is it time for Carl Anthony Towns to finally play up to the level he's been billed at for a while? So he is now entering year seven of his career, which like, let's pause for a second. Year seven of Carl Anthony Towns, which I could not believe it. Definitely has gone through a lot of tough stuff personally over the past year and definitely feel for him in that regard. But if he is over all that stuff, I do feel like this is probably a prove it year for him.

Just for context, some year seven recent guys, who he was actually comped with as recently is, I don't know, last year or two years ago. Anthony Davis in his year seven was his last season with the Pelicans. He'd been to six all-star games, three all-MBA teams and two playoff berths. Janice, year seven, was actually the season before last. He won his second MVP. Nicola Yotich is entering his year seven. He's an MVP. These are all guys we thought were peers, unfortunately towns, nowhere close to that. So why is the question, is it time for towns to actually play like one of these guys? I think

I think Towns has been an excellent player for basically his whole career. I think it's not that it's time for him to start playing like those dudes so much as it's time for Minnesota to face the reality that he's not one of those dudes in the sense that

why the hell are you trading for DeAngelo Russell to make that dude happy who's never done anything for you? He's never produced at the level of Yonis or Yokic or AD, right? Like, he's never taking you to the second round where you throttled Portland in the first round where you didn't expect to, right?

But for the fact that AD was just otherworld, like, he's never produced at that level. I think he's somebody that's still worth keeping around, right? Like, if we're going to pretend that Che Gilgis Alexander is some, like, untouchable, amazing piece for the O.K.C. Thunder. We can't talk about Carl Towns, like he's just some guy that we no longer need to have around.

But I would say that the thunder would never dictate their organizational structure and planning around SGA. Like, you shouldn't be doing that for that type of player. And I think Carl Anthony Towns has shown himself to not be the type of guy that you need to be cowtowing to and, you know, basically just sucking off every chance that you get. Right. Like, I think he's shown himself. As one says, right?

I think he's shown himself to not. be that, but I'm still relatively bullish on Carl Towns and the type of guy that he is. I just can't accept that somebody who's as smart as he is as a player with the IQ that he has and pretty

damn good athleticism and size has to be this bad anchoring a defense. I just refuse to accept that as a fact and he's an elite offensive player. That goes without saying, and I think he fits what the lead guards need from a big man of his type offensively perfectly to unlock what they do.

I'm actually kind of bullish on Minnesota coming into this season, mainly because I think Anthony Edwards is a monster. I really truly do think he's a special talent and a special type of player. And I think Carl Towns is going to help him ascend to that level because, you know, sometimes you play with guys that are mismatches, right? Like, he's not playing with a guy that's going to clog up the lane, which is where We want Anthony Edwards to do most of his damage this season. And so I'm pretty excited to see what they can do when they finally get their.

And look, Core 3 is doing a lot of work here when you talk about DeAngelo Russell. But to finally get those guys healthy, get a training camp in and see what they got, I think people should be excited about what they do in Minnesota anyway. Yeah, the bottom line is that when towns and Russell were on the court together, they won those minutes. they just didn't get nearly enough of those minutes. And that's a multi-year problem with both of those guys, missing lots and lots of games over recent seasons. So maybe this is the year we get an honest look at what this team actually is

because they've missed so many games at this point. It's hard to know how good or bad this team even really is. And if Edwards can take a jump in addition to those guys being healthy, there could really be something here. But I think, Justin, you know, your point about comparing him to the Janus's and Yokic in particular because Yokic was a guy who, you know, towns early in their career, when they started getting mentioned in the same sentences, I think he was a little bit offended.

I think he was a little bit offended and took those matchups really personally whenever he would play Denver. And they are not in the same category anymore. So if he can close that gap at all to getting, you know, not to an MVP level, but to getting to more of an all-NBA consistent, you know, a guy who can, you can rely on in multiple playoff series, who can be a great crunch time performer, that would go a long way. But otherwise, this team doesn't have a lot of options. I mean, they might have the weakest power forward rotation in the league. They have a lot of questions.

They have a lot of ill-fitting pieces. But he and Russell and Edwards, they got to do, they're going to have to do a lot. Yeah, I mean, to Rob's point, Towns probably has had the worst supporting cast of any of the guys we mentioned. Even AD. And there's definitely been more fluctuation in like who's around him, too. It seems like Erson Roses in Minnesota is just like playing like Yu-Gi-O cards where he's just trading them back. back and forth, like, every season. Like, it's to the point where, like, the roster still isn't really settled,

where they don't really have a four. They're kind of banking on Jared Vanderbilt. And then, like, Patrick Beverly is coming in. So there's just a lot of their keep pretending like they're in the Ben Simmons sweepstakes. Jake Lehman is not the answer at home. No, but no. I cannot believe how much they keep trying to pretend like they have a shot at Ben Simmons and how they keep, like, just putting things out.

out there and saying that they put like trade packages together and calls in order to make it seem like it like on the one hand it's ridiculous but on the other hand this is exactly what darrell more deserves because he used to do the shit all the time and now he's like lieutenant is doing the same thing to him but post all-star break to rob's point uh chris finch gets in there installed an actual offense he tries to make sense of some of these guys 11th best offense in the league that's pretty good the problem of course third worst defense in the league. And I think that's where I come back to long-winded way of saying with towns is like,

it would be nice if he wasn't just this like incredible skilled big man offensive player who could shoot the lights out, future Steph Curry center type, yada, yada. Like he needs to fucking like go in the paint and do some dirty work. Like I sound like I'm Oscar Robertson and some of these old guard guys. We were just telling people. But like he needs to like show a little bit more on that hand. like be a monster, go at Joel M.B. Don't just get stomped by some of these bigger guys.

And I think that will have a trickle-down effect because his roster is actually situated to the point where they need more of that from him because they actually don't have like a four. They're going to probably lean more offense. And so he's going to be asked to do more on Devinth than probably ever before. I mean, it goes back to are you a guy who produces

or are you guy who is supporting and carrying a team? I don't know that we know which side of that divide towns is on yet. I think he has the skill. set to be as much of a guy who's propping up a great offense and carrying a franchise as anyone, but he's got to deliver on that. Yeah, and again, we're not asking this guy to be Rudy Gobert on defense, right? Or Joel on defense, but like, man, can we just get, can we just play decent defense while you're killing people in office?

Like, just decent, not dominant, decent defense, right? Like, can we get your defense to be at the level of what regular season Rudy gobert's offenses, right? Like, can we just get that? That would be amazing, right? To where it's like, all right, he does enough to where defensive has, defenses, specifically regular season ones. Not that they have to game plan around what this guy does, but they have to respect it,

right? Like, we have to get it to a point where guys on offense, their eyes just aren't start, don't start lighting up as soon as they see that you're playing the five. Like, let's just get to that, please. All right. Let's get to the last team on our list for today, which is number 23, because I think they're a really interesting counter to what we're saying about the wolves and even the Kings to a certain extent. And that is the San Antonio Spurs was the question for the Spurs. If you had to pick one of their young players, which one has the best chance to make an all-star game?

So with the wolves, you could easily say towns. With the Kings, you could easily say Fox. is there a clear number one guy, even like on the off chance that there's a Drew Holiday Sixer situation where there are enough injuries and this guy squeaks into an all-star game, Jamal McGlore style.

Like, what is like the number one guy on the list? It has to be Derek White, basically, because teams, people make all-star games on team, on offense. And he is clearly the offensive, high-level, threat, potentially, the only one on this team. I think DeJante Murray projects as a crazy elite defender. I remember one time watching him just, like, put Lou Williams in a straight jacket, like, in a way that, like, I had never seen before.

Lou Williams was giving the ball up at half court because of what Dejante Murray was doing to him in Staples Center that one night. So, you know, I think, I think that's what he's going to do elite, but that doesn't. doesn't get you to All-Star games, especially not at the guard position in the West, right? So I guess it's Derek White, but, like, dude has to play. And I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the Spurs are.

I don't get what they're doing. The Zach Collins thing was strange, although, like, you know, Ol-Shay was obsessed with Zach Collins until he just couldn't justify it anymore because he just never fucking played, right? It just literally happened to every young player, Neil L. Shea Hshaey has ever had except for Dame William C. McAllen. Right. Like, he was just obsessed with the dude. So maybe he shows some of that stuff that people in Portland were so high on if he actually gets on the court. And because, but I don't even think the best version of Zach Collins is some borderline all-star type of dude, right? It's just like, all right, he can start at center and it's not an embarrassment on an NBA

team. I just don't see it for anybody on this team. You Rob? Like, is Doug McDermick going to make a... Remember when the Hawks sent four All-Stars? Is he going to be the fourth Hawk on some team, something? Like, I don't see it. I don't see it at all. And, you know, if Derek White is our best prospect,

Derek White is 27 years old. He is in the prime of his career already. You know, I don't... I just don't see it. But I have a question for you, too. How did this happen? How did we get to the Spurs over? the wolves because I did not put them

that way and I need you two to defend yourselves. Oh, I've slowly become convinced that the Spurs are going to be a good regular season team. Like the Timberwolves have a much higher ceiling, obviously, just because of the offensive talent they have there. But two things in the Spurs'

favor. One, defense. They actually play defense and if anything, they are super deep with just guys who are credible defenders, if not plus defenders, like Murray, Pertil, like, all of these guys. And I do think, like, that's going to rack up wins. And two, they're super deep with just capable role players. They actually go too deep with guys who could be in a rotation for any

team in the league. And while, like, yeah, like, who's going to pop on this team? The answer to the question, by the way, is Kendall Johnson. We can get back to that. But, like, I think this is the type of team that will get overlooked and end up, like, right back where they were last year, like, 10, 11, while the wolves are like, what happened? We have DeAngelo, Russell and he could score 30 points a game and actually he has like 30 turnover's game. To me, I like I had the spurs. I kind of messed up my ranking because I had the spurs. Yeah, I had him over the Knicks, had him over the Raptors had like this was just obviously

just a blatant mistake. But the reason why it's just like, look, they're going to play hard every single regular season game. They're going to be well coached, right? And it's not like just, you know, they. basically Rockets level talent. Like they have competent NBA level rotational guys all up and down the roster. It's just there's no pop here.

There's no sizzle anywhere. Like you can't identify any sizzle here. So like unless, you know, yeah, very is about to explain why Kendall Johnson is. Kelden. Kelden. Keldon, excuse me. Keldon Johnson is about to take over the world. They brought Brent Forbes back.

I mean, come on. What are we doing here? I think it's a pretty good sign if Pop is literally baby birding him a Team USA spot in like a career by like just empowering him to be a guy not only on Team USA but on the Spurs. And like, listen, there's there's going to be opportunities there. I thought he did reasonably well last year trying to fill the gaps in between DeMardarra Rosen, etc. But like, you know, he's going to have a chance to be the guy. And I think he does that reason.

Here's the, but just briefly, the case for the Spurs is also like they don't need just one guy to be an all-star. If all of these young guys just take a half step forward, that amount of overall progress is probably enough to like round out a pretty good team. That's all they need to be. I get it. And you don't need to pitch me on the Kelden Johnson hive. I'm already here. I would say there's, you know, the spurs were reasonably successful, not awful last season for two reasons. Justin, you hit one of them. Their defense was was pretty okay. They played a really conservative defense. Yacob Pertl was a big part of that. He was actually really good, just kind of defending the rim. The other reasons they didn't turn the ball over basically at all. And that,

to me, was the DeRosen effect. And that's where I get a little bit nervous because, you know, Damar has a long track record of his team's playing better when he's not on the court. But the one thing he does for you is he insulates your lesser creators from having to do too much. And all of a sudden, Dejante Murray, Derek White when he's healthy, Lonnie Walker, these guys are going to have a lot a ball handling to do. Patty Mills has gone too. They have a lot of responsibility in a way they didn't. And I think this offense could get pretty sloppy pretty quickly if they're not just totally on top of it. Yeah, I don't know. There's just a lot here. And it would surprise me if this team was just a complete abject failure. Like, Darius Young is just hanging out on the second unit right now.

And like maybe they trade him and get something for him. But on the other hand, like maybe he just rounds out a pretty interesting small ball team. I think, I think, Rob, if, the darkest timeline happens, like you lay it out, then they have like a colossal failure in hand. You have to restart everything. I think it's probably more likely that some of them are okay at some of that stuff. And then that's enough. I think so too.

And I think the model is last year's Knicks team where it's like, you know, a bunch of guys playing their asses off every single night. Yes, Julius Randall deserved the All-Star, didn't deserve all that MVP talk people were doing, but he deserved this all-star birth. It's just, you know, that's good enough for home court advantage in the East. That's true. That's going to get you playing game at best out west this season.

So, like, I don't know. It's tough. But you heard it here first. Kelton Johnson is the new Julius Randall. Place your bets. Let's go. Oh, Rob, if you had to just rank the third. three teams we talked about just right now, Spurs, Timberwolves, Kings. How would you rank them?

So, I mean, I would put the Kings above these teams. I think the wolves have more promise than the spurs. I just, I'm looking at this roster. I'm not seeing the breakout or the competence or really a lot going on other than as you're saying, Justin, like, yeah, they could trade Thaddeus Young at some point. And maybe there's a trade to be made in these ranks. Like the wolves would be a great Thaddeus Young team, you know, Timberwolf legend, Thaddeus Young, get him back in Minnesota. But other than like some mid-season trade opportunities. I just don't see a lot going on here. All right.

Let's wrap it there for our first edition of the power rankings. Part one, we'll be back with part two next week. It's a slog, but we're getting through that. And just cherish you, guys, because we probably won't be talking about these teams a lot this regular season, to be honest. There won't be a lot of Kelton Johnson stannery going on over here this season. I don't predict.

No. You say that now, but wait in a month. my friend. All right. We'll be back next week. Thank you to Sasha Ashall, our Mark Tatum, for breaking ties and and soldiering us through this, this exercise here. We'll be back next week.

See you.