The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Preseason Power Rankings, Part 3 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos buckle down for Part 3 of our preseason power rankings. This week, we count down from no. 15 to no. 6, starting with the Bulls (0:45) and moving on to the Trail Blazers (16:00), Clippers (24:50), Celtics (33:30), Hawks (44:00), Nuggets (52:20), and Mavericks (58:50). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's up everybody. I'm JJ John D. Stramski. And I'm Jason Gough, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shy Town with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines.

So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. Joining me today, big waz and back from gallivanting these United States. Rob Mahoney, what is up, friend? It's a big wide country out there, guys. I've just been road tripping across it, stopping at every, you know, rest stop, gauging public opinion about the vaccine. It's been going great. In one of those vans like they used to have in the old NBA ESPN commercials, where they just stuff a bunch of NBA players in the back. Oh yeah, yeah. You got the trophy full of guac. It's great.

Do you work at the New York Times now where you just go to the Heartland and ask Heartland people stuff? Like, why do you love the former president and are corn dogs really that good? The only way you really get to the heart of public opinion is going one diner at a time. I've found personally. It's real America. That's true. Rob, you were out there in real America, the NBA version of it, at least. How is it, I guess, just from a just on the,

ground perspective at NBA training camp. You don't need to get into specifics about where you are, but I'm curious. I think it was a heartening time as a media member in terms of things getting a little closer to normal in terms of interacting with players and coaches. Obviously, there's precautions, wearing masks, all that stuff. But it seems like we're going to get something a little more like a typical NBA season in terms of being able to actually talk to people, which for people in our line of work, that's a little bit important.

Right. Well, thank you for showing up today, unlike Kyrie Irving. We appreciate you helping us on this march toward the end of the NBA power rankings. We have reached, my friends, part three. We are in the top 15? Where are we starting from today? Yes, sir. Yeah, 15 is where we start from today.

Guys, I'm excited because this is where the actual good team starts to show up. I mean, well, maybe good teams start to show up. At 15, we might be at average teams. Yeah. showing up. Are we at the main course at the main course at this point? Or are we still like pre-dinner salad appetizer? What would you say this is for the NBA slate?

This is the third appetizer coming out right here. The amuse-bush, maybe? No, this is the good shit. This is like, you know, you got some fried Brussels sprouts coming out. You got, I mean, we're really stepping it up, I think. Okay. Let's start with the team at number 15, who blew the doors off the Cleveland Cavaliers

and preseason basketball last night. I actually checked in on this game. While everyone else was watching the Red Sox and the Yankees and actual sports, I was watching mostly the B teams for the Bulls and the Cavs wage war. But I have to say, I have been pretty pessimistic

among a course of people who have been pessimistic about the Chicago Bulls going into this season. But they looked like the Showtime Lakers last night. Lanzo ball hitting ahead to Zach. Levine who was dunking, Ellis Caruso with a double clutch in the air. It was like, it was legitimately impressive. And so Wads, I guess let's start here. How are you feeling out the Bulls now, let's say a month out from their offseason? Because I think we were all a little mixed. Have you come around

it all to them? Yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, I like many people, was very impressed with what Zach Levine did at the Indian Olympics in the sense that, you know, he was around a bunch of competence to greatness. And he upped his level of play. I think defensively, specifically, it stuck out. Zach Levine as, you know, Scotty Pippen. You know, like, that's not something that we had ever seen before. And I know that the Devin Booker comparison has been made ad nauseum, but I think it's a worthy comparison because, you know, very early in their careers, both of them was seen as these offense first guys who weren't that efficient, who didn't drive, you know, above average offense in and of themselves and were complete sieves on defense. However, both of them

for the bulk of their career have been surrounded by Drake, have been surrounded by mediocrity. And we saw what happened with Booker last year when actual pros, real NBA players, surrounded him. The Phoenix Sons, you know, they had one of the best records in the West Conference, ended up going to the finals. All of that, I think Zach Levine, this is his, you know, this is his time. This is the first time in his career, you could say that he's surrounded by legitimate NBA talent, right?

Not that, you know, Alex Caruso, Alonzo Ball are going to make 10 NBA All-Star teams by the time their careers are over. But these guys are real deal NBA cogs in a real, you know, defensive. and offensive machines, which is, you know, not even to speak of guys like Voochievich or Vucci Maine, for those of you who are more inclined to that. And, you know, DeMart de Rosen, like, I think this is the time for Zach Levine to show exactly who he is. And that kind of segues to my overarching existential question here, which is how good is Zach Levine actually? Because I do think, yes, they made some changes, some pretty significant ones. And we can get into those. But I think

this ultimately comes down to, is Zach Levine an all-MBA type of player, or is he the type of guy who's just going to kick on the fringes of All-Star, maybe not even that, in a crowded field? Rob, like, where do you stand on Levine going into the season? Well, a lot of that depends on what he's allowed to be by

the system and as Woz laid out, the teammates who are around him, because not only has he had direct to play with a lot of the time in Chicago, but one reason I think the Booker comparison really sings is, like, those two teams, the Booker Sons and the Levine Bowles, might have had consistently the worst point guard rotations in the NBA.

And, you know, Lanzo ball is not a pure point guard, but between Lanzo and Damar and Caruso and Vucovich, there's functional playmaking there. And so you're finally going to get to see Levine be even more of what he's supposed to be, which is I think ideally he's probably the second or third best player on a team in terms of creation, initiation, all that stuff, because he's such a good off-ball shooter. So you'll get to see him kind of have the volume of a first-option guy,

but some of the function of a second or third option guy. Yeah, it's pretty surprising how poorly the Bulls drafted over the past couple of years because I looked out on the court last night and there pretty much was no one to be found. Like, Javante Green was starting for this team and yeah, like they need some defense. But like, even like the low level second round picks that have kicked around in this team are just like, eh? Like I get it. They have a new regime. They probably didn't have any allegiance to those guys so they wanted to move on.

But like, this is a completely new team. And on the one hand, I watched them run. And I'm like, oh, Caruso, De Rosen, Lonzo, Levine. Like, this team is built to get up and down. But then I'm also like, I don't know, is Vucci Man the guy to do that? And so, like, I don't know. Like, Was, do you think like this team makes, like, clearly going to win on offense, but do you think like there's a clear vision for how to use all of these parts?

Yeah. Again, there is a vision on how to use it. It's just a matter of will they play up to the level? of average or slightly below average defense when they're not playing the likes of the Cleveland Cavaliers, right? That's what it's going to come down to because you can't run as consistently and as efficiently as you would like to when you're constantly taking the ball out from out of bounds, right? You've got to be getting that thing off the rim via stops and, you know, keeping it pushing from there.

I think over the years, not that they're on the same. same level as this team. I think that's what's made the Lakers transition so potent in over the past two years with AD is that they've consistently been one of the league's best teams. And then you got guys like Caruso and LeBron and KCP and all of these people, AD with the hit of heads, but they were getting stops on a very consistent basis. So if they're not going to get stops, it doesn't matter how fast Lonzo and Zach Levine and all these guys want to play in Caruso, who again, these guys are. elite transition players, right?

Like, they're incredible transition players. So we'll see it. It would be a matter of if they could get stops and out. And, you know, Vucovich is never proven in his career that he could anchor good defenses. I have no reason to believe that that will be the case going forward. But, you know, stranger things have happened in the NBA. Yeah, I think where you might get some optimism there is just because the perimeter defenders they do have are pressure guys. Yes, sir.

Guys like Lanzo and Caruso, like they're going to jump lanes. They're going to do things that can get you out on the break that even if Vooch is, you know, floorbound and in the wrong spot, whatever it is, they're still going to be able to get some transition, you know, play out of those turnovers. Yeah, there's this one highlight kicking around from last night where Lanzo switched on to Lorry Marketing and pretty much like stood him up in the post and like swatted the ball out of him. And now Lori Marketing, I don't know if he's necessarily just like Prime Hakeem. But it was the Lurie Marketing and Revenge game. though. I know, which is particularly bad. But, you know, they have some devils. I guess the question, Robin, just from like a big picture, like architecture of a team standpoint, I'm curious, like, because they have so many, like, dynamic offensive players now, Rose and Levine, do you think it's

easier to, like, find the Giovante Greens and some of these other guys to fill in the gaps around them? Or is this the type of situation where they're going to struggle because they don't have enough two-way guys? They have too-way guys. Well, they still don't have enough two-way guys. And in terms of depth, they're definitely missing something. But one name that hasn't come up, and I think maybe the asterisk on your argument about their draft history, just because we have to wait and see, is Pat Williams, who's out right now with an ankle injury. He'll be back at some point. He's kind of the great hope of that young core in terms of the really young, under 21 contingent of that team. And if he can be a really good player, and I think right now he can be exactly what you're describing,

somebody who can play some defense, take some tough assignments, play off the ball a little bit, hit shots when the ball comes to him and hopefully over time transition to even more of a bigger part of what they're doing. But yeah, right now they still have moves to make. And I think they're going to be a team that's active on the waiver wires, active on the trade market to find

more reliable sixth and seventh and eighth guys because right now it's a bit of a mishmash there. Yeah, I just can't shake the feeling of when I see the preseason media day photos of these guys, like the new edition all around Levine, flashing back to like 10 years ago when you see a bunch

a team's like reaching for the middle tier of free agency and like hoping that your team can just completely be flipped around like, like, Marcus Cousins, Isaiah Thomas and then John Salmons. Wow. Okay. Come on.

How dare you? How dare you be smirched the Joe Noah D. Rose? How dare you be smirched to Joe Noah D. Rose, Carmelo, Anthony, Big Three error. Come on. They're going to take the triangle to the next level.

What are you talking about? I think that is my. problem. Like, when of the last time we've saw a team just from the middle of free agency just instantly changed their future? It really doesn't happen. I mean, there's a reason. I think Atlanta is somebody

recently who you felt like by the additions that they made from guys like, you know, Bogdan and the rest of the crew that they brought in. Like, these weren't KD., Kyrie, James Hardin level free agency guys or even Bradley Beal level free

agency guys. But the team was made whole by plugging in spots instead of having guys that just, why are we given 20 minutes of rotational minutes to guys that just don't belong in the NBA damn near? Right? And once you bring that up to the level of actual NBA competence,

and again, like you said, the question about how good is Zach Levine obvious? Actually, that's how we're going to see it. It's that you're not just playing, you know, complete minuses at multiple positions. 48 minutes a game. Like that's a big deal. I mean, the counters, I think the Hawks are a good example.

The counter to that is they had just a wealth of recent draft picks in order to apply those free agents too. But the thing with Levine is, it's really interesting because he is a free agent going into next offseason. And if he is as good as we all say he is, like what is going to keep him around? Because like, do we actually think that this team is this type of team that can like take a next level into, I don't know, the second tier of the East good, like be around the fringes of the Sixers and the Miami's because if not, you're probably going to lose him to a team, like,

probably in a more attractive market. I know Chicago is technically a big market, but like, if you're him, why not go, I don't know, beat the other guy in the Sixers or something. I don't know. Well, I think they could be a second round playoff team if things break right. You know, they might need some injury help on the other team. They might need the right matchup, all that stuff. But I think what keeps Levine around is your work in this dual track that serves exactly what you're talking about, Justin, in terms of them kind of being a middle of the pack

Eastern Conference team. But what they have is a better team than they had, which is not for nothing for a franchise that's been pretty consistently bad for a while. And then also they have a lot of guys who, if a star comes available, they can cobble together and trade, a guys who are going to be attractive,

who are valuable veterans. They're operating... Well, they're operating like a big market team in the way that the Knicks are now, which is they have money under contract to trade if they need to trade it. Yeah, I don't know. Like the DeMar de Rosen contract isn't great. Like, Lanzo's already getting paid a healthy amount.

Like, they just don't have assets. Like, they have Patrick Williams. But, like, I think to deal from that asset base, if it's not just like a Brooklyn Nets to the Houston Rocket style pick package, like, you're gutting your team and like what's left to play with those guys. You're gutting it a bit. But I think there's something to, again, I'm not trying to trade these guys. I think this team's going to be pretty good.

But if the right deal came around, Lonzo and Caruso and Pat Williams and picks, like that's a conversation starter at the least in a way that the Bulls haven't had in a long time. And, you know, if this thing does crash and burn, which I don't think any of us do think that would be the case, I think that's when the Levine market heats up, right? It's like, all right, look, this thing is crashing and burning.

This guy's not going to resign with us. I bet you we can get some, nice, nice, nice, nice, hall for this dude if that happens to be the case. Yeah, on the one hand, the bulls were kind of in a no-win situation because in order to assign Levine to an extension

that would have been attractive to him, they would have had to use cap-space, which meant they wouldn't have been able to add to their team, but I don't know, man, I don't know a free agent in this era who's like really psyched about waiting for their payday and it just seems like a pretty no-win situation. So

we'll see how that plays out, but let's move on to number 14 on our list, the Portland Trailblazers. And for this team, I asked a question which I was going through this last night. I pretty much can ask, I think most, if not all of the teams we're going to talk about today,

which is can this team play any defense? But I think it's more pronounced than the Blazers than most because over the past three years, they have just been absolutely scintillating on offense in terms of offensive rating, second, third, and third over the past three years. On defense,

29th, 27, 7th and 16th, like I can't think of a team with a bigger chasm that has actually been successful. So, Rob, what do you think? Is this the year that the Blazers did enough that they could find some sort of balance and maybe convince Dane that, like, things are a little bit different there in Portland? I mean, this gets at the heart of a bigger question for me, which is, I don't know about you guys, but I find myself kind of discounting the Blazers in a lot of ways in the Western Conference pecking order. And I'm not sure if I'm doing it because it's right or if it's because it's easy, right? They're a team where Dame seems like he may be out the door at some point in the near, distant future. I don't know when that will be exactly.

Maybe it never happens. But versus some of these other teams who just have fewer questions, fewer complications, they're a little easier to talk yourself into. Portland, it's like by the numbers, their starting lineup was actually pretty good defensively. The question is like, can they get enough of those minutes and can you get better stuff out of your bench, which, you know, the personnel there has changed. Maybe there's enough there. I just have a hard time talking myself into their defense being good enough.

And I think their offense might actually take a bit of a step back. They've been consistently top three. I feel like just on a gut level, they may fall in more of like a five, six range of this year between coaching changes, personnel changes, people adapting to the way the Blazers play. I feel like they could be in line for a slight step back. And so if their defense isn't league average, then I'm not sure what difference it really makes jumping from 29th to 20, you know, 23rd.

Yeah, I think the hope is that guys like Roco and, you know, the new additions like Cody Zeller, who you guys know I'm a bit of a stand-of. So much Cody Zeller talk on this podcast. And rightly so. Larry Nance, Jr. These are guys who are pretty damn good defensive players, pretty versatile in their applications defensively. And I think that's the hope, you know. I used to get texts from Blazers people about Mello's defense last year, which was just like on another level of terrible, right?

Like it was just, so you're just getting that out of the lineup, you know, it's sort of similar to what we said about the Bulls. Like getting like, all right, we don't need you to be all NBA first team defense, but like, can you just not be horrible? Can you just not miss every single assignment? Can you not just get blown by on your one-on-ones? Can you not just get creamed on the boards? Like, you know, these are things that you can reasonably ask of people who you're going to play 18, 20, 25 minutes a game. And so I think with the new additions, their defensive pick up the slack. Yeah, I guess the question is how is their defense just completely broken?

like, well, a couple of small tweaks in the scheme. It sounds like Billups is going to play a little bit more switchy, a little bit more aggressive than they had been, which was well known to be a very conservative defense in Portland. And do guys like Larry Nance, Cody Zeller filling in for Mello and Ennis Cantor, do they make up the difference? And I think the bigger question is, how good of the defense does it really need to be?

Like, as long as they're not sacrificing offense, like can they be high? high 20s, can they be 16, like they were three years ago? Is that enough to just like let Lillard and McCollum and now Powell just like shoot the lights out? Well, switching even a little bit is a pretty dramatic change for them. That's not a small change. Like this is, they've been locked into the system for so long playing, as you said, Justin, really conservatively defensively. And I think for good reason, because of their personnel. Like, you know, when we talk about switching, we talk about the bigs and whether they can guard guards,

I think they're better suited for that than they are the alternative. You know, Nurkich can shuffle around a little bit. Covington can move. You know, Nance, bring these guys in, and Zeller, I think that'll help. But when you get CJ McCollum switch on a guy who's 6'9,

you're just kind of stuck with offensive rebounds, with Dukkins, and the Blazers have all their perimeter guys are those guys. It's all kind of smaller wings and guards. They play so small on the perimeter. The more they switch, I would be a little concerned about their ability to stand up. Now, I know they're starting from a pretty low place in terms of defensive rating,

so maybe there's only up to go from here. But I don't think that's the solution of their problems. Yeah, and we talked about this in the playoffs about, you know, basically switching dependent on matchup, having a defense that's dynamic enough to recognize time, situation, opponent, and make your defensive maneuvers based, on those things and not have it just be a blanket scheme that like no matter what we switch where it's like um no don't switch c j mccallum onto lebron james like that's it's not a good idea

you just don't want that perhaps in a double perhaps go under perhaps do something different than switch and i think with a veteran laden group like this one who you know these guys have stuff to prove still i think you'll find that they'll have a more dynamic defense it's not like when you I think about when Bud went to Milwaukee and the defense that he implemented, which was just this blanket defense. Like, look, this is what we always do no matter what. It's a very young group. You don't want to overload them with information.

And, you know, let's be real. Like, in the NBA, that drop defense pack the pain is going to work against about 90% of the teams, especially in the regular season when nobody even cares anyway. You know, it's in the playoffs where you run into problems. But again, that's a young team. team, that makes sense to take that approach. These dudes are freaking old, man. These are veterans they got on this team.

They should be able to understand high-level defensive concepts on the freaking fly. Well, I think that brings up a good question because they haven't had a lot of Nerkich the past two years. And I have to wonder if there's a correlation between the defense of just chasm between the third and the second and, excuse me, the third and the second and first years in the rankings that I mentioned, is having just more Nerkich. I almost called him Yowgich. Is that enough, Rob, you think, to make enough of a defense?

Is he, like, that type of guy? I mean, watching Ennis Cantor get blown by wasn't doing it for you. I know. But, like, this is what he should be doing for this team, right? He should be anchoring the defense because this is what they need for him. Absolutely. I think he's pretty competent in that regard. You know, he's not an all-defense candidate.

He's not one of these elite rim protectors. We're going to talk about all season for this, like, incredible impact. But he's a guy who can hold down a spot who can take up space. who knows like angles pretty well, who can get in front of people and contest, that's a world of difference for a team like this, especially when, you know, these are veteran guys,

these are, you know, guards who should be able to understand scheme and execute it, but they're also guys who have trouble getting over screen sometimes and, you know, getting in, you know, staying in front of their man in that regard. So just having anyone to kind of catch the next level, you know, as the next level defender, to catch the action as it comes to them,

is going to be big. Consistently over the last couple years, when Nurkich has been healthy, they've been pretty solid. So again, that's a big if with him, but it could go a long way. Yeah, I don't know if it's just this exercise or if this is just preseason Hope Springs Eternal Talk, but I've been able to talk myself into pretty much every team that we go through these days. And the Blazers are another one because it does seem like they don't need a dramatic overhaul.

It's just like a little couple tweaks and you just let Dame be Dame. On the other hand, though, it's just like, man, the margins are so thin there. I mean, Neil O'Shea pretty much laid out on the tracks, basically saying, like, well, it was the coach. And all we need is a couple upgrades to support that theory. And if it's not, like, could lead the dame leaving town. It could also lead to probably rightly so after this point, O'Shea actually being fired. But it sounds like he has a lot of rope there. But man, this is like, you really need to get this right.

And I wouldn't bet my life on it. But I'm like mildly encouraged just like based on the small upgrades they make. Justin's Portland pandering continues apace. I think I saw your beard grow half an inch as you were explaining that. As I drink my Stump Town coffee, yeah. All right, let's move along to number 13, the Los Angeles Clippers. Talk about a team I'm talking myself into. I have to say, while doing these rankings, what, like a couple weeks now ago,

I was like, there's enough here to make a run, but perhaps I have playoff colored glasses on because I think there's going to be an open question about a lot of the guys they counted on in the playoffs, what they could do in the regular season. Terrence Mann, Reggie Jackson, can those guys be like, have that type of impact over an 82 game season? And so my question was, is with Kau, let's presume that he's gone for the entire year, who among the high upside guys that they have, the disappointing guys, the young guys who might be able to find something here? are you most counting on or most encouraged by to take a step forward for the clippers?

I mean, it kind of has to be Terrence, man, at this point. Because he was such a revelation in that Utah series, not just making shots, but attacking closeouts, being their best transition player, being one of their best downhill off the dribble. It was insane what this guy was doing during. in the playoffs. Like the knock on him, honestly, when they drafted him, was like, all right, this guy has a lot of tools. He's a pretty, he has great length.

He already has a decent handle, already has an understanding how to get to the basket. The knock was always, is he going to have a playoff ready jump shot? And then, you know, the playoffs happened last year and it just clicks, right? I think the vision for this Clippers team is that they commit to the type of hyper small ball that they went to against the jazz, heavy switching, high intensity on those switches, super versatile lineups. And that Reggie Jackson is like basically an all-star point card is real. You know.

I've heard this before. Detroit told themselves this like three years ago. But also when Kauai left, Paul George turned into the guy that we always felt like he was capable of being, right? I think that's the theory of this team that those three guys, Paul George, Terrence Mann, and Reggie Jackson play close to the level that they did in the playoffs. And yeah, this is a damn good team if they're able to do that. You know, they knocked off a pretty good jazz team without Kauai with this group. That being said, man, it's just hard to see that happen over the course of a regular season. I'm out of the business of questioning

Reggie Jackson's jump shot because he's just been freaking making it for like three, four years now at high volume, off the dribble, on the catch and shoot, whatever the hell you want. He's just been crushing it. So I think Reggie Jackson

with more opportunities is going to have a great season. I just, man, it just seems hard. Like, in the playoffs where it's like, all right, everybody's basically counted you out. You got two games to win. You can go all out

and commit to this style and get things done. Are they going to do this? over the length of a season, I don't know. And also, you know, with Ty Lou, and people make this joke a lot. But it feels like he only comes out with his most brilliant best stuff when their backs against the wall. It's like, you know, I'm down, I'm down 3-1. I'm down old two. That's when I start using my best stuff. I wonder how that translates in the regular season. Yeah, in retrospect, it seems really obvious that they had to trade Pat Beverly.

Like, they needed guards and minutes for guys who can stretch their usage, who are good, going to do more. And that's why I understand the peril of what I'm about to suggest to you, but I'm kind of talking myself back into the Eric Bloods. So experience. Oh, Lord of mercy. Okay, okay, with caveats, with caveats, just in the sense of, again, who is going to take shots on this team?

We know Paul George's. We know Reggie Jackson is. Marcus Moore is going to get his. Luke Conard is going to come off the bench and shoot a little bit. But they need some guys with a little bit of juice. And they have spacing. They have some stuff to work with. If he can even just get them a handful of good drives a game,

a handful of good transition opportunities a game, take some pressure off of, I think the more wildcard aspects of the Terrence man. Yeah, the Terrence Man experience. Just the idea of Terrence Man filling a like 70 to 80 game vacuum is a little bit scary to me. And so if you can get anything to mitigate some of the more dangerous aspects of that, I think you'd be in a good place.

But really, I think what sets the clippers up to have a good season is this is, This is a pretty low pressure affair for them. You know, whenever Kauai is in the lineup, they are a contender. Without him, they can kind of play a little looser. They can do their thing. They can explore the boundaries of their roles and push a little more and do a little more. And I think that's going to wear well on a lot of these guys. And look, the last two years, their offense has been ridiculously elite with Kauai in the lineup, right?

Like, sure, they never played fast. They were kind of a slow half-court. team, but in the half court, they were surgical. Find the guys. I think last year, they might have set an NBA record for three-point percentage, how incredible their offense was humming. Obviously, you lose Kaua Lennard,

your offense isn't going to be as sick. I know I might be like breaking news here. So I'm wondering how much they lean more into, you know, being a defensive intensity type of squad that grinds out wins because at times in the regular season,

they could definitely rest on their lower defensively because they knew they could just get quality shots no matter what. And Kauai was doing a lot of the shot creation for them. You know, Reggie Jackson, Eric Bledsoe. These are not, you know, people that anybody's ever considered elite shot creators, especially not for others. So we'll see if they can pick up the slack. But I think their offense is going to take a bit of a hit, you know,

which I know is in rocket science to say since they're losing a freaking MVP type of guy. Yeah, I think on one hand, the pressure is off to a certain extent like Rob mentioned, because they also don't have a draft pick just waiting in the wings. So this can't even be a David Robinson-type bridge year where they reap the benefits of not having Kauai. On the other hand, I don't know how Steve Ballmer is going to take that. One, because he's a psychopath, and two, because he's paying just like an absurd amount in luxury tax. So the point where, like, I was reading John Hollinger's piece on them, his like kind of preseason outlook on every team.

and this one on the Clippers, where he's like, one, he predicted them for 10th, which, yikes. And two, he was like, if it goes bad early, he wonders if they start dumping money, if only to lessen the luxury tax bill to like, at least kick that down the road a little bit and maybe help Daddy Steve just a little bit pay for all those gorgeous new screens and his new, you don't like that, Rob? Did you just say Daddy Steve? Oh, well.

Did he just aggressively grab your thigh, as you said? He is a sugar daddy, that's for sure. I know. Big sugar daddy vibes. They're making a big thing about that stadium they're building down in Englewood and got to pay for that somehow. That's not coming from my tax dollars. So he's got to find the money.

So I don't know. It could turn the other way pretty quickly, I guess, or at least there's a path to that. I guess my thing with this team is there's a lot of interesting guys on this team. Yes, the blood cell. renaissance is among that group, Jackson, Terrence, man, Justice Winslow is a guy who, like, I just hope can find something again because he was so good in those like early playoff series after the big three went out of Miami. Luke Conard, another guy. I guess the problem is

they're counting on all of these guys because after them, it's like Kean Johnson, maybe throw some of the young guys into the fire. Like, you need Luke Conard to be who he was when they traded for him, essentially. And I guess that is where the skepticism starts to creep in. Well, and that's why they can't bump up any higher on these rankings than about here. I disagree with John in the sense that 10th in the West seems real steep to me. I see them as pretty solidly and comfortably in like a fifth, sixth, seventh kind of range, but they're not going to bump up from there unless Kauai is back.

Like, they just don't have the upward mobility to the rotation to be, you know, to shock the world and upset somebody in the first round. Like, that's just not what this team is built for. Yeah, I agree with that. So we have them at 13th. So let's move along to 12th here. And that is the Boston Celtics. I seem that I'll be honest.

I was high on even before I talked myself into every team. Here's the question. We can go a lot of ways with this, including whether or not they can upgrade on defense. My question is, is the Timororne Revolution upon us? And I say this because from a team building standpoint, I think everyone would agree that they have two pretty solid pillars in Brown and Tatum, like two wings that young wings, two-way wings, who I think a lot of teams would want to base their team around,

it's really going to come down to everything else around them. And they did a big job this offseason shuffling all of that up, including bringing back a lot of people from Celtics teams gone by. And I think Time Lords are one guy they have amongst their recent draft picks other than Brown and Tatum, who I guess if you want to throw smart in there you can too but like he's the guy with upside he could take this team to another level and I'm just like not really sold on what

he is really especially now that they have Horford and so Rob do you have any hope that Time Lord is the savior for this Boston Celtics team this year yeah I mean Time Lord revolution seems strong maybe maybe an uprising maybe a clamor

A Tom Lord January 6 Jesus. Not touching that one. I think he's going to be good and important for them, but we got to measure our expectations where time Lord is concerned. That said, I'm kind of into this idea of him and Horford playing together. I'm kind of talking myself into it a little bit

in terms of Horford becoming more and more of a perimeter player with every passing season. And I like the idea of having Horford and Williams out there together as facilitators. Because none of Brown or Tatum are smart. These guys are not standout passers. And both Williams and Horford can read and react and make plays to different degrees and in different ways. But I think that's going to be an important wrinkle for them. Here's my question, though, if you're putting El Horford out on the perimeter,

is anybody guarding him? Like, if Al Horford shoots in a forest, like, and won't even know. I don't know what I'm doing here, but you get the idea. He's never been a dude that's like, all right, as soon as I catch it, I'm firing this thing every time I'm open. That's never really been his bag. He's always been kind of pretty hesitant about firing from three. So you wonder how much his spacing matters when teams can scramble and recover because they know he's not, you know, he's not some assassin out there. I don't mind the Time Lord and Horford pairing for the reason that Time Lord can guard Fours.

He's fleet of foot enough that he could do that in a way that Al probably isn't good enough to do anymore. And so you let Al bang down low with the big guys and you can let Tim Lord actually chase dudes around on the perimeter and be that, you know, play the Cat and Mouse game with guys on Pick and Roll a little bit better. probably than Horford can at this stage in his career. Even if he has more know-how, he just physically, it's like you're not as imposing as this kid. So, you know, that'll be fun to watch. It'll be fun to see if the Celtics can finally get back to elite defense. That was their calling card in the Brad Stevens era, was just locking guys down and then, you know, running a decent enough offense that they were good.

And speaking of Brad Stevens, little birdies on the ground in Boston. have told me that there's a lot of good juju around. Not easy. He's out of there. Seems to be some good vibes around the Celtics because they don't longer have the substitute teacher in there with them. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, I get the, the Horford Williams starting front court from just like a personnel standpoint because they started Juan Jo Hernan Gomez last night or Monday night. at the four. And like, I guess I don't see another easy pathway to a stretch four on this roster if they don't want to do that. My concern is that, like, if you're playing two bigs, like, one, the spacing is going to be probably pretty crammed if you're not going to make up for it. And like, if you're playing smart with those two guys, like, is everything just going to require more of Robert Williams to understand, like, where he's supposed to be at all times? And like the other part of it is like, can you count on Time Lord to be consistent on both ends every game?

And like, I don't know if that's the case. And like to that point, like he was over seven in the preseason in his first game. And it's preseason whatever. But you would hope that like a guy that they're counting on shows a bit more. And so I don't know. I wonder if this is ultimately just going to lead to the Al Horford at Center Revolution, where it's like they're already talking about him as a captain and like how he knows everything. He's ready for a bounce back year.

And so maybe that's for the best this season that like Horford just manned to center position and Williams just comes along slowly on the second unit again. But like, I don't know. Like does that increase their ceiling to the point where you're feeling good about them competing with the top of the east again? I think we've come too far.

I think Rob Williams is at the point where his impact is just outweighing his mistakes. Like he's going to jump at some balls. He shouldn't. He's going to take some shots. He shouldn't. But he just does think so that team that no one else can. don't think you can put him back in the box at this point. I think you need to start him. You need to play him a fair bit. Again, his body permitting, the health and injury stuff has always been a big

caveat with him. But if he's out there, I think that can work. And in terms of what their roster and rotation could look like, part of the reason you start Horford is just because of what it means for your second unit. You know, if you're going to, if they're going to make any time in the game to go big, the beginning of the game is the time to do it. When the biggest dudes are on the floor, when you can match up the best. Because, I mean, you don't want to play Horford and and his canter together. That's not working. And so you're really looking at, are we going to start Horford at the four? Are we starting, as you said, Wancho Herni Gomez at the four, which I don't love? Are we going to start, you know, Dennis Schrooter and Marcus Smart in the backcourt together

and move Tatum and Brown into both of our forward spots? Maybe that works for them. I don't know. It's going to take some maneuvering. But I love the idea that we're going to get to see who Imeudoka is as a head coach. This is an exciting season because we're getting a lot of first time head coaches, a lot of former players getting their first crack at this. We're going to see him and Wes Unselled and Willie Green and Jamal Mosley, all these guys to see who they're going to be as NBA head coaches. And so, I'm a guy who's well respected,

well liked as an assistant. This is a very different job. And it's going to take a lot of juggling to make all these different pieces work. And we haven't even bothered talking about Brown and Tatum because they feel like known commodities at this point. But, you know, I think what's held Boston back in the past is that I don't think either one of those guys have shown themselves to be a legitimate, quote-unquote, superstar in the sense that, yeah, I score,

but I also create very easy looks for others. Neither one of them has ever become that. And you wonder, you know, maybe Tatum becomes that kind of guy this year. Who knows? I've always been less, you know, less optimistic of that than other people have been in the past. But, you know, I've been wrong about plenty of things before. So if he could become that type of playmaker, where it's like, yeah, not only am I a threat to score one-on-one, but when I do draw help, when I do puncture the defense, when I do bend the defense,

I'm able to pinpoint and generate quality looks for the guys around me. If he becomes that kind of guy, that's when you start thinking about this team in a different way, right? If he becomes a legitimate superstar where you have to send two and when you do, he destroys you for it. That makes this a completely different proposition, but they have never shown themselves either of them to be that type of player.

And that's the difference is when you're asking of, what you're asking of Tatum and Brown as playmakers is can they beat you when they draw two, as you said, Waz? We're not asking them to do incredibly complicated reads and sophisticated stuff. It's like, can you consistently beat doubles? Can you take this easy stuff? because developmentally,

I think asking wing guys to become next level playmakers is just not super reasonable if they haven't shown the aptitude for it. We have this conversation with guys like Brandon Ingram all the time too where it's like, can they evolve in this way? Can they change their games in this way or that?

If you're not that guy, it's not a matter of putting in time in the gym or looking at film. It's about the way you're wired. The way you're wired to see the game. Tatum and Brown do not operate in that way. So then it's about, okay, what can we do to leverage

the attention they get against opposing teams. That they should be able to do and we'll have to see if they can take some steps forward in that regard this season. I guess the question then is like did they get enough supplementary playmaking with the Schroeder's and like with Smart and in Horford and I guess Rob Williams

like do you think there's enough around them or like do you think last year the problem was something a bit more tactical or was it something a little bit more juju based where or is it leadership and all of a sudden I mean the bench. They're non-basically Tatum, Brown, smart.

I guess you could throw time load in there. The nine minutes played by those guys were horrible. It was a horror show. Like, they just sucked. They had no guys last year. And at least this year, they've, again, it's a common theme. Like, they've replaced those bad players with decent ones. And I think that should make a big difference too.

Yeah. All right. We'll see what happens there. I mean, yeah, they definitely have a lot more. There, Josh Richardson, someone we didn't talk about. And he could potentially have a bounce back here after having COVID last year with the Maverick. So we'll see. I think they're definitely a team with a high ceiling, whether or not they'll get there.

We'll see. To move along to another team with a very high ceiling, especially in Waz's mind, is Atlanta Hawks from the A. He is broadcasting. My question here, because I do want to look a little big picture before we get into some of the particulars of this team, are the Hawksa stealth favorite for a star trade? In part because I look at this roster and there's just so much stuff here. And there are so many guys who need playing time. Even with like a neck of Okongwu, like dealing with an injury, it's like, oh, we have like four other guys who could just soak up those minutes easily.

And I think we talked about this a lot last year going into the season. and they have too many guys, and I wonder if this year, if everybody's healthy, like they weren't last year, I wonder if we get into that sort of problem. And so why is the question? What do you think?

You know, it depends on if Travis Schlenk has that type of mindset, right? Like, we talked about Memphis's mindset of not letting success dictate their trajectory, meaning like, don't get drunk off of what happened last year and think that's just,

who you are. Like, don't think that this group is penciled in for conference finals every year just because you did it last year. Let's not go crazy. If the opportunity to get a legitimate other star in there next to Tray Young presents itself, they have to look at that. You have to. You know, and I know that, like, I don't let fans get sentimental about watching, like,

incremental rise. It's like, oh, our guys did this and they're about to do this. And it's like, no, we don't want to break up that core. was so cute what they were doing together. And they just, you know, they broke out of mediocrity together. And it's this nice thing. F all of that. You know, if an actual star comes on the market, man, all of them, you know, you know,

the 10,000 pick swaps and the this and that and the 500 picks in the future, package with a few of these young cats and some other stuff, do it. 100% do it. Because I think Trey Young's that level of player that if you can, get another perennial All-Star type of guy in there, man. And they're deepened up that there's no package that they could send over that would

leave the cupboard completely bare. You got to do that. Yeah, it's not a question with the Hawks of, could they put together a package? It's what was it. Does Travis Schlenk have the mentality of we're a challenger right now? We are ready to push forward right now

versus are we going to take this like Utah did or like Denver did. You know, grow our young guys, develop players, extend them, keep them under contract, play a longer, longer term game. They're just totally different philosophies and mentalities of team building. But finding minutes for all these guys is an inextricable part of that, as you said, Justin, because even if you just look at the top eight or nine guys in the rotation and you pencil

them in for the same minutes per game last season, you're already at more than 48 minutes for five positions. You're already beyond maxed out. And so on an individual level, is a guy like Gallo going to be okay going down to 18 minutes a game. Is Cam Reddish going to be okay playing 20 minutes a game? Everyone's going to have to give up, everyone short of Trey Young basically, maybe Clint Capella just because he has kind of a unique skill set, is going to have to be okay with the prospect that on some nights, they're not going to play that much. And that's a tough ask for guys who are just starting to kind of make their name in the league.

Yeah, I mean, Boyan Bogdanovich, another guy who came on late last regular season, like, how is he going to fit for a full season next to Trey Young jacking shots when he probably shouldn't. John Collins, another guy, took a big step forward, has the deal now that he always wanted. But like, now that he has that, will he look to, like, expand his role? I don't know. Like, I definitely can see this team just, like, keeping the momentum going. But I could also see them hitting their head on certain problems that we expected to be there, but they just never really happened last year. Like, really the source of, like, any, like, discontent was focused on the coaching staff and then obviously the injuries provided some excuses to this stuff.

But I think you're right. I think like there's just a lot here and like it's good to have a lot. But I wonder at a certain point if it's like you need to do something with that, which is why I bring up the star trade because like I don't know who would make the most sense. Like Bradley Beal if he ever comes on the market this season, I think would be good. If Carl Towns ever wants out, he would be good. I just see like, I don't know, these things come faster than we think. And like I look at just the spreadsheet of their players and the contracts. And like they don't have a lot of bad contracts. They have a lot of good players.

And so like, why not just do this? Yeah, this is a lot of stuff to deal with. But what we're really getting at is the fact that Atlanta has one of the most favorable positions of any team in the league right now. They are a conference finalist in hand. They are a young growing team that could be even better down the line if they play their cards right. You want to see Hunter take another step because he was just phenomenal. He was, that was an eyebrow raiser of his season. would he deliver just perimeter juice, perimeter shot creation.

Of course, he came in with a defensive reputation, and that continued to bear itself out. Obviously, Cam Reddish, because of his pedigree, people still think he could be, like, really good. I'm kind of like sold my Cam Redish stock. I'm out. I'm out. I ran for the hills on Cam British,

but I think people are still pretty optimistic about what he can do. And, of course, you guys know Harder is my favorite of all of these guys. guys, honestly, in a do-or-die game against Philly where it's like, all right, we're going to switch everything and we're going to let your, you know, your young guy who nobody's ever seen do anything try to beat us. And he was like, yo, Seth Curry, you better get the hell out of here. I'm destroying you. Like, he just bodied this dude, you know, like to watch a guy do that in a high-pressant situation, you know, for his team deliver that way in the one-on-one, in the clutch. It's like, dude, like, that's big time.

You know, so I'm just excited about the different lineups they can put together, depending on the matchup. You know, if guys want to bruise, they can try to bruise, you know, with a congrew with Clint Capella. If guys don't want to bruise, they can go really small and spread you out and just fish filet your ass. So I just love what they're able to do versatility-wise. I'm, This is my favorites. This is the team I'm most excited to watch this season. And I know that's going to sound like blasphemous when you think about Brooklyn and the Lakers drama and even the defending champion bucks.

But this is the team I'm most excited to see how they put it together because, you know, the coach gets, Nate McMillan gets a full training camp to put new stuff in to actually implement his imprint. Some people might say that might not be the best thing. But, you know, they get a full training camp. They get to be excited about last season. They got a taste of important basketball. They have that confidence in bravado now. So I just want to see what they do with that.

So let's say they have to deprioritize one of these young, exciting wings. Sounds like Woz, you would pick Kim Reddish. Don't get him out of here. He's out of my rotation right now. Was is ready for more Tony Snowman. It's get Tony Snow back in there. Is there one that you think is, is the easy one to pick off.

I mean, I guess this isn't as much of a problem in the regular season where you could spread it around a little bit more but like, uh,

if they had to, Rob, who's on the bottom, who's on the chopping block? Well, you know who it's not is DeAndre Hunter, as was said. Like,

as we're talking about the Hawks as a trade team potentially, Hunter feels like the guy that they're going to be haggling over with the potential, like that's the guy other teams are going to want. He's the Kyle Kuzma. Damning with faint praise. He is the Kyle Kuzma of this team.

He's just so important to unlocking that, that versus. I could see Herder being the guy, not deprioritizing the rotation, but if a trade needs to be made just for financial reasons, just because they don't want to be on the hook for that next contract when they have so many other guys coming up, I could see. And because I think Reddish has a certain appeal. I think he still has fans in the league, but it's a tougher sell. It's a tougher sell than somebody like Herder who's just, you know, you know exactly what kind of player he is and what he can do for you. gentlemen we've reached number 10 on our list we did it two thirds of the league down we talked about the spurs and the grizzlies and all the other teams that uh wasn't want to talk about but now we're here to talk about the big market Denver nuggets at number 10 I have to be honest with you I can't come up with an interesting question about this team because I feel like it's the same damn thing every year uh clearly they've like progressed beyond like oh I think what a lot of people expected a couple years ago and they're at a point where they might not have Jamal murray I think a lot of people are still penciling them in and to be a pretty big force in the Western Conference. But it's the same thing. It's like, can this young guy take a step forward? Can they pay the luxury tax if they need to?

So it's a pretty trite question, Rob. But like MPJ, can he have the breakthrough year? I think a lot of people are expecting from him. Yeah. I mean, I expect it. I think he expects it. I think the Nuggets expected. He's just at that perfect intersection of a guy who's on a very natural rise.

I mean, just he's only played two NBA seasons. far. And we've already seen a lot of promise from him. But that's intersecting with Jamal being out and this incredible void of creation and playmaking and the need to create shooting. He's going to have lots of opportunity this season. And I think he's one of those guys who, because of his size, just because he can shoot over the top of so many people, he's going to be able to put up a lot of points. You know, he got paid. Okay. So, like, will he have a breakthrough season, he better. You know, like, they gave you all of that

damn money, although the fifth year is basically not even guaranteed, which speaks to his injury history in the past. But, like, look, you got paid. The second best player on the team is out with injury, as you guys already mentioned. You're going to have all the

opportunity to show us you're the guy who you keep telling the entire world you are. You know, when you're scoffing at being a third banana, when you're talking about your ready to take the next step and not playing team ball and hijacking possessions and all of that stuff now's your chance to prove why you were right brother so you know i'll be really anxious to see how he handles this role because it's it's gonna be on him right i think the Denver

offense particularly against regular season opponents they're so creative there's so much continuity uh they're gonna be able to get buckets with nicola yokickech the reigning MVP like they're to be able to score. I think if this guy is truly a dynamic wing threat where it's like can never leave me open and I'm getting to the cup and I'm getting fouled and I'm, you know, I'm knocking down my mid range when people sag off against me and, you know, the drop coverages. I'm, you know, sky's the limit if he's able to do that, but we'll see. And there's a long runaway on this answer too because there's the question of what Porter does now and then what happens when Jamal comes back. back. Like when he comes back is that suddenly there aren't enough shots to go around between the three of them or does him, does Murray being out facilitate Porter into becoming something that's kind of unstoppable?

So here's an interesting kind of tangential question to this all. The GM survey for MBA.com came out yesterday, I believe. And one of the like hundreds of questions they now have on this thing because all of a sudden it went from like basic five to like 30 different things that nobody actually cares about. what their assistants say. But anyway, one of the questions was most likely to have a breakthrough season for the GMs. And this was the list that they came up with, starting with the one who got the most presented of the votes. Jaron Jackson Jr., Anthony Edwards, Michael Porter, Jr., Darius Garland, John Morant. Of that list was, who do you think, or even someone not on that list, who do you think is most likely to have a big year? Anthony Edwards. Y'all know I'm Anthony Edwards high. I just think the world of the kid. And I think he showed that he was getting better and better as the season progressed last year.

He was insanely inefficient. Even for a high-volume rookie to start the year, it was like, whoa, bro. Come on. All right. And so, but his efficiency started creeping up as the year went on. You could tell from when you're watching the wolves, his understanding of what defenses wanted to do against him was getting better and better. you know, his recognition of like the matchups that he should be attacking. When he got a favorable matchup, he was like, get the hell out of my way and attacking those favorable matchos.

I just think he's going to apply all that stuff this year and just be way better. I think he's going to have a monster season. In Clutch, we trust, baby. Yes, sir. You can see Waz watching the Adele trailer in the background while he's recording the podcast. Rob, what do you think? I mean, for one, I'm a little surprised John Morant is on this list. Did he not already break out?

He's already broken out. There's no qualifications really. So it's just like who's on the top of your head that could be good and is young. Yeah. I mean, of these players, I mean, I think Porter is going to have the biggest jump in scoring. I think Garland is going to have the biggest jump in reputation. Jackson is just going to, I mean, it's just so dependent on health. So I hope he can have a breakthrough season.

But I'm, and Edwards, as we said, like with space is just a totally different player. So I like, I like all these guys. I think Porter is probably the biggest breakthrough in terms of what's actually going to happen on the court. But if you'll allow me a tangent, too, there's the question, if Porter even does have a breakthrough, will Nuggets fans even get to see it? I am so baffled by their TV situation. I don't know if you guys have been following up with that, but like people in Denver cannot watch the Nuggets play. On altitude?

On altitude sports due to some complications with their contract with Comcast. So like, I honestly just don't understand why I three-state. States away can watch the nuggets more easily than people in Denver. But if you're talking about why aren't people talking about Porter or Yokic or this team enough, I think it starts with the fact that their home market can't even fully get behind them in the way they want to. So that point aside, and it's a bit of far afield, but I'm just, I'm so confused as to how that can happen in the Year of Our Lord 2021. Get Valley sports involved, man.

They're just taking over the world, one small market at a time. which I always assumed that they were like a treadmill company, but I'm glad that they've diversified their portfolio enough that they could broadcast me in my NBA games now. It's great. Yeah, treadmills and RSNs, you know? Right, right. All right.

Let's go to our last team on the list here, number nine, the Dallas Mavericks. And for them, we talked about them a lot over the past month or so. So again, pulling from the GM survey, because I think this is the biggest question for them. is Luca Donchich, our friend, the MVP favorite. Rob, what do you think? Oh, Oz, take it, my friend.

No, hell no. He can't be the MVP favorite for a couple of reasons. First of all, being, we got the Mavs is number nine in the power rankings here, which I think is pretty high, to be honest. And so he's going to finish at best, what, fifth in the West? fourth, maybe, right? I mean, things happen in a regular season. Sure. And so, and that's one.

And two, the last time we watched basketball, KD and Yonis were clearly the two best players in the NBA. Clearly. And their teams are going to win way more games than the Dallas Mavericks will this season. And so therefore, they're clearly a cut above Luca in the MVP race as it stands before the season. Their teams are going, like, it's obvious their teams are going to be better because they're going to be healthier than, especially Brooklyn is going to be healthier than it was in the playoffs. And just is more talented, all of that stuff. And those guys were better in the playoffs than Luca was.

As great as he was, Janice and KD were on another level, which speaks to how incredible these guys were in the playoffs, which, you know, I don't think they've gotten enough credit for it, to be honest, especially the Bucks who, like nobody seems to give us. shit that they won the championship last year. I think those two guys are clearly a cut above the rest when it comes to the MVP race. And they kind of have him flanked too, where, you know, if you're talking about Durant as a favorite, maybe you could talk yourself into like him and

Hardin, sharing credit. But Janus is just such a different role in circumstance where it's like one of those guys is probably going to be at least a frontrunner at some point in the season. Will people talk themselves out of Janus because he's already won a couple times? I think that's possible. And so Luca would have to have a lot

narrative juice to be at the forefront of the MVP conversation, which is not impossible, but puts a lot more pressure on Jason Kidd than I'm comfortable with. That's the thing is like his, Luca's numbers and his impact is they're going to be there. But will the systems around him make the Mavericks good enough to have the kind of record that can win you MVP? That is a much more complicated question. You're kind of making the case for Luca, though, because this is a narrative-based the ward, like, first and foremost. And I do think the two things against Katie and Yonnas. Right, right.

Or the lack of star players playing to play with her. Yeah. So KD, probably going to miss some games. Will the Nets really put their pedal to the floor on the regular season? Are they not going to have Kyrie? And so if they don't just blow the doors off of teams this year, is it going to be perceived as a disadvantage or like a lack of, uh, living up to expectations.

And Janus has won twice in a row. And I do think, like, there's a voter fatigue. People want to reward the next guy. And, like, Yokic was a very deserving player last year. But, like, you know, he probably benefited a little bit from the new shine of being a guy that we haven't really anointed yet. So let's give them some stuff, right? It's actually the opposite of the Oscar race where they just give people career awards.

Lifetime achievement awards. Right. Yeah. It's the opposite where you want to, like, anoint the next stars. And I think Luca is going to have a very good. case, even if he makes like marginal improvement, I do think it means the Mavs have to be a top two, top three team in the West. But like, I think there's a possibility that that can happen. And just to go over the list, uh, the GM's had briefly, it was KD1, Luca two, Yonis three, Embed four.

And I don't think Embed has age. Also, the narrative fatigue that we had with Yonis last year no longer exists because he won the chip. Yep. Right? Like that, that's done. They can't do that anymore. It's like, oh. more thing that he won though like I'm not going to keep giving him stuff like he's just hogging

all of the accolades it's kind of like that's what the money is for it's like that's what the title was for right take that but you got to remember people like we're not giving the MVP because he has to do it in the playoffs that's no longer the case like people might just be like yo he's legitimately the best guy in the fucking league he keeps doing it over and over again and at a certain point we got to recognize him for it so that's why I think the narrative has shifted on Janus because of the championship and the way that he did it. Like he put the team on his back though.

You know what I'm saying? So we'll see. Yeah. I mean, the qualifier with Janus is how healthy is he going to be? I mean, he's been talking about my knee still hurts, you know, from the from the playoffs. So if he ends up, you know, taking it slower this season, taking games off, managing it a little differently, that might influence his candidacy here.

But I think Luke is going to be in the conversation. I think Embeddead has a better case than we may have acknowledged here. I think Steph is going to be in that conversation all year. And Luca, I mean, some of it is just like the stuff that's been coming out of camp, the stuff that's been coming out, even like Media Day, like, we're going to have Chrisaps, where Zingis shoot more mid-range jumpers. We're going to start Dwight Powell. My kid was like, you know, Luca, he's the man, you know, but he's got to start.

He used some convoluted metaphor. I forget the fucking metaphor he used, but it was basically like share your toys type of thing. It was about Picasso needed to learn to use other kinds of paints. Right. Did that happen? It was actually happened. This is a real thing that happened.

He said that. He said that. He said Luca is an artist. He's a genius. But even Picasso needed to learn how to use different paints, which I don't know how that correlated. But, Chris, that's not only different shades of white.

that's another story. But can you not see how that alone can be its own narrative where it's like if his numbers stay high enough, it's like Lucas sacrifice for the better of the team. He's actually like a LeBron type. He's not a scorer type like Kevin Durant or yada, yada. I'm with you, but I think it's the kind of narrative that gets you third place on the ballot. Okay. For a lot of it.

Now, again, if the Katie's, if Hardin is so good that Katie's candidacy is complicated, if Yannis is slowed down by injury a little bit at all, I think there's absolutely, room here for Luca to win it. But he's going to have to do some work in terms of boxing out, some really good and really talented players. So if he's not the favorite, who would you guys say? Is the favorite or just even like a Dark Horse guy that you guys are interested in for the MVP race? Dark Horse.

I mean, well, I'll say this because last year I was talking up Luca and Tatum. And I found that like reaching for these type of guys, you're usually one year early. and I do think both of them probably Luke is probably not a dark horse if he's on this list but one. What's his name? Donovan Mitchell is a dark horse. I think you're talking when a shit ton of regular season

games again this year. He was lights out in the playoffs, even on a bum leg. And I think you can, he's somebody who does play with a chip on his shoulder. He's a high motor, high energy, high effort guy, even in regular season games.

He's still at the age where he does that. I think Donovan Mitchell is definitely a Dark Horse MVP type of guy. Well, let me ask, why did you guys, it sounded like you kind of brushed off Embed's case earlier. Why not Embed? I don't think the Sixers are going to win enough. They're going to be like a mid-range Eastern Conference team. Like last year, they played at the best record in the league level, right? They're not going to do that this year.

And I think people are going to dock and beat for it. Now, if he comes out and he's just straight up better than he was last year, which on a per minute basis was the best player in the NBA regular season. All right, that's a different story. But I mean, I find it hard to believe he's going to be better per minute than he was last year. No, it's that. And it's also when's the last time, Embed played a full season? Like, he would have maybe won MVP last year if he just hadn't gotten injured for what

was it, like, 20 games or so toward the end of the last season. Like, you just can't count on him to play 70 plus. That's fair. I just see the argument aligning where. you know, Ben Simmons is holding out the start of the season. They start the season 8 and 1, 7 and 1. The conversation starts to shift to, oh, my God, look at how Embed can carry a team. And if he does get the right breaks with his health, we know what he can do.

We know how dominant he can be. And now with even more spacing potentially. So I think there's, again, I think there's a path there. That's all we're kind of looking at at this point is like, who can actually get from point A to point B. I think Embedd is one of the handful of guys who could do it. That's a good one. I think another probably dark, dark horse, I would say, is Chris Paul. Because if the West is wide open and that team just like remains steady and wins the West

and we're in one of these situations like we were last year where it's like, oh, there's a bunch of deserving candidates at a certain point. Like, I do wonder if Paul is healthy and has another year like he did last year, all of a sudden it's like, yeah, that makes sense. He's pretty much singlehandedly willing this team back into the upper crust of the NBA. Yeah, I think the day. Devin Booker thing is going to be tricky there in terms of, again, extricating who is responsible for what. And obviously, you know, we've been talking a lot about Monty Williams, too, and how much credit he

deserves for their success. There's just a lot of stakeholders with the sons who are all very deserving in a way that I think complicates award races. Yeah. One thing I will say, though, just to circle back on Janus, I do wonder if the voting body has had so much of the LeBron and MJ should have won way more than they should have. If that now, benefits Janus because I think you can make the case that there is voter fatigue, but I wonder if we're going to do the thing where it's like, well, we have to actually give it to the best player of the season and we're going to regret it historically. Because if you think about it, the people who are voting on this award are pretty much us are people we know in the media.

And I think that they are just as likely to be convinced by that narrative, which has been circulating for a couple of years now as like maybe we are having this conversation. I mean, also notable on that, we haven't even mentioned LeBron in the MVP conversation. Right, right. You know? Or 80. He ain't winning. He ain't winning MVP.

But he's going to be running for it. He's going to be. He'll be. I'm already starting to counter how many times LeBron talks about being available for my teammates. I'm going to go over under 13 times this season. He's going to say that. He's not going to put nowhere near the numbers that is going to take to unseat these guys ahead, these younger guys. They're going to put up crazy numbers.

I also just hate how this conversation just evolves into something about, like, a meta reading of, like, why people vote for things. That's what it is. I know. Just, like, it's so sad. It's, like, one of the most important things that, like, you could, like, most important conversations you can have about the NBA. But it ultimately becomes, like, what your friends in the media think about these guys and, like, what you could project on them. Well, hey, send me back out on the road. I will tell you what the heartland of America thinks, diner by diner as far as who should win MVP.

Okay. Sounds good. All right. That is it for part three of the group chat preseason power rankings. One more to go, my friends. And we have yet to talk about the Warriors or the Sixers. Both of them make it into the upper crust. Where will they be? Find out next episode. Thank you to Wise. Thank you to Rob. Thank you to Sasha Ash, all on production. We'll see you next one.