The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Preseason Power Rankings, Part 4 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss the best teams in the NBA in Part 4 of our NBA preseason power rankings. They go 8-1 starting with the Warriors (1:37), Sixers (14:11), Heat (31:20), Jazz (40:55), Suns (55:24), Bucks (1:03:48), Lakers (1:11:00), and Nets (1:18:00).  Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's up everybody. I'm JJ John D. Stramski. And I'm Jason Gough, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shy Town with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines.

So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier, joining me today on this grand conclusion of our four-episode-long power rankings, pre-season extravaganza, bonanza, whatever you want to call it. Big Was, Rob Mahoney. Rob, are you excited to reach the end of the road here that we've been on? Look, I'm really just here to be a voice for the voiceless. I'm here to challenge society's control. I'm here to rest us free for the end of these power. rankings. All right. We'll just see if we make this entire podcast without sending you home. Some other people are doing these days. Obviously, we will all get to Kyrie Irving. We will get to Ben Simmons. But luckily, we don't need to make a special exception for them because we are going to talk about their teams because they're in the final eight, our final eight for these power rankings. Why don't we just get into it, gentlemen, because number eight is a bit of a

controversial one. Rob and I had them around the same place. I had them at eight with a bullet. Rob had them 12th. Was, you had them sixth. This is the Golden State Warriors. Before we get into the existential question here, do you want to make the case for the warriors

being higher than we had them? I've made the case several times across several ringer platforms, but I'll do it again. Check your IG. If you follow them on Twitter, you already know what's coming. Go ahead.

You know what's coming. But I'll do it again. If you have Steph Curry, if you have Clay Thompson, if you have Jemont Green, basically since 2014, that has, with interchanging parts, right? From, you know, Leandro Barbosa to Anderson Varigal, Andre Agadalz back, David West. There's been interchanging parts. Andrew Bogit, you name it. But those core three, if you've had those three, you've had a pretty effective defense to elite defenses at times. In the very beginning, they were the best defense in the league because of Draymond and Iggy and Bogot and those guys.

And I know those guys are gone. But number one defense in the league with the most impossible to stop offense. Right. So we know last year they proved they could be pretty damn competent. on defense, the problem was offense. After Steph couldn't be Superman, everything broke down. He said career highs and usage and scoring. And he was incandescent at times last year.

And so you have those three guys. I know Clay is coming off of a major, two major injuries when you talk about an ACL and an Achilles tear. Those are not, you know, those injuries aren't for play-play. That's big stuff. Play-play? But I think they're going to be really good. I think the only thing that you would watch for Clay Thompson is his defense.

Because back in his heyday, his prime, he was guarding the best perimeter guy on every other team. And that goes from LeBron to Westbrook to Kyrie. Like, it didn't matter. Clay Thompson was guarding them. Yeah. They have a four of them. So I'm going to be watching that closely. Yeah.

Rob, what do you think? Well, I mean, that's the question is there's the matter of when Clayton is. comes back and when he's back to being full Clay Thompson again. The defense they're going to miss. They're just going to miss it because he's going to come in and be able to shoot. That part I'm not too worried about. But they need that perimeter defense. They need his ability

to guard the point of attack as Woz was saying especially when you look at the rest of the rotation and that's where Andrew Wiggins being available for the full season is suddenly very important for them because he's going to have to do that a lot of nights. He's going to have to take some heavy lifting defensively. I will say I've been kind of surprised

and I guess impressed by the way Steve Kerr has managed their rotation in the preseason, they are not playing the young kids. They're not giving them any slack. This is a veteran heavy rotation. They're not messing around. And so if Jonathan Cumminga, of Moses Moody, if, you know, Wiseman, when he comes back from his injury,

if those guys are going to play, they're going to have to play simplified, streamlined, you know, controlled impact roles to get on the floor because otherwise the auto porters and the Namanya Bialitza, these guys are going to eat up all the minutes that are there, because the Warriors are trying to win. They want to win right now as much as possible. Yeah, two guys who didn't provide much for the teams they were on last year.

Bailetsa didn't get on the floor a lot for the heat in the playoffs. Otto Porter kind of just drifted into the netherworld, and we kind of lost them. He ended up in Orlando at one point. I'm not sure most people realized that, including us in previous podcasts. But it does bring me to the existential question for this team, which is like, when will Clay come back? And what do they do in the meantime?

Because I think because he's been gone for so long, two full seasons at this point, I think you're just penciling them in, at least I was to a certain extent, but you don't realize until you really dig into some of what they've been saying out there that there isn't a return date set, one. And the only timeline they're really providing is like maybe December, maybe January. And maybe that means he comes back on the earlier side, but we're talking two, three months, maybe even longer before he comes back. Maybe he comes back on a minutes limit.

Maybe they're like, maybe we're doing a burst play like with Zion Williamson. Like we don't know what we're getting from Clay, which is starting to get concerning because I think you guys hit the nail on the head, like, who's soaking up those minutes? I think Jordan Poole has been a revelation. He was awesome last year, and he's been awesome again in preseason. And so maybe he becomes just a guy for a while. But at the same time, you need him to start, A, and like, what are you doing with the rest of the second unit? And like, I don't know.

There's just like, it gets pretty difficult pretty quickly. And so I was along the lines of Waz to initially thinking, like, oh, they have Stefan dream on, they'll get Clayback, whatever. Now I'm a little bit more dubious. Was, should I not be? I think the December target date, we got to remember.

This is the team that started a whisper campaign. I remember in 2019 when KD wasn't back yet. And they would ask Clayton, I don't know, I don't know, what's up with this guy? I don't know. And, you know, they started a little whisper campaign on KD because they knew he was leaving and they felt like he was sandbagging

it. And then he came back and he fucked his Achilles up. So I think the team that went through all of that and that scrutiny about KD's injury and his timetable and X, Y, and Z is going to play it pretty conservatively with Clay Thompson because it's not that long ago that that happened, right? Where, you know, it's not like, they didn't go to Katie like, oh, come back or else or you're piece of shit, but it was like, it was known. Everybody was like, what's up with this guy? Yeah. Why is he not back? It's the fucking finals, et cetera, et cetera. And then he came back and tore his fucking Achilles. So I think this is the team that went through that. And so they're not going to do that with Clay Thompson, obviously. They're going to let him take as long as he needs

to knowing that they have their eyes on the prize. They want to get to the playoffs at full strength, fully healthy, and see what they got. Because what they had last time, they had Clay Thompson was pretty fucking good. And I think that's where we diverge was is what they are when they get to the playoffs. Regular season, I think this is going to be a good team.

I mean, my bags are packed. I am all aboard the Jordan Pool hype train. I think he's going to make a lot of threes for them this year. He's going to fill in that starting spot pretty well for the 82. But then you get to the playoffs. That's where you need Clay to be a little bit more healthy,

a little bit more available. You need pool to be a little better defensively, a little better in like high pressure. spots, it's a lot to ask all of a sudden. And then when you're living and dying with, again, like auto Porter, corner threes, which are a good proposition, but are you ready to bank your season on that? We'll see. Are you ready for, you know, someone drives B-Elisa off the three-point line and he's wheeling and dealing and making plays? And like, that looks really good. Right now, will it look good in April or May? I don't know. So I'm a little more skeptical about that far down

the line. In between, I mean, I think they're going to be fun to watch. I think they're going to, look really good, look really fluid. They're going to look like the Warriors again. JV., do we think Wiggins is going to make it the whole season? Because he got Vaxed recently. I don't know if he's going to make it. Yeah, I mean, they can count on him. I'm sure there are some other people on this list that we probably can't count on.

But I'm just worried that this isn't the year for the Warriors and that, like, were a year ahead of schedule with, like, expecting them to compete like they were in years past. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I mean, like, not only Clay, but like you're counting on comminga and Moody or Wiseman to provide something. Otherwise, you are counting a little too much on some of the auto porters and the

Bialita. It's fine to have them in the rotation or Iguodala and like expect maybe they show up from time to time. And if they do, like great. But it just seems like there's not as much to bank on as you would like. and I almost wonder if this year becomes more of a feeling out year and maybe they put things together for a playoff run and maybe Clay, like they ramp up Clay specifically to peak in the playoffs

as opposed to getting through the muck of the regular season or like next year they come back, they roll everything back and they're just like a more complete team. They're the team that we expect, I think a couple of people are expecting them to be this year. I don't know. It's just a little shaker than I would like it to be. Well, and defensively, it might just need to be the kind of team

where they're just kind of in scramble mode all the time, and they're betting on not having, you know, elite defensive personnel to be, as we've outlined, you know, what they used to be, the number one defense in the league, a top three defense, but they're going to be a group of veterans who knows how to move, who knows how to recover for each other. That can be kind of trying and frustrating in its own way

if you're the guy making those rotations, but there's enough experienced guys here to make something work. At least, at least, again, on a regular season level, everything's kind of caveated in that way for this. team for me. Let me ask you this. If things don't go well, if all of a sudden they get off to as bad of a start as they did last year and like they're, they're mired in kind of the play in race or maybe a lower playoff seed, do you think that they make changes? Because I'm worried considering the amount of money that they have on this team. And John Hollinger had this stat that the amount

they're paying in luxury tax, which is $180 million. That's not even counting their actual salaries is more than any payroll in the NBA. I wonder if, like, they, they stumble or they don't meet expectations, in particular Joe Lacobs' expectations, things change. And, like, does that mean, do you fire Steve Kerr because he's counting on too many guys to move the ball? He's not playing a system that would empower or make things a little more streamlined for rookies like Kaminga and a second-year player like Wiseman? Do you try to move Draymond Green?

I don't know. Are we at that point? Or I guess, like, not are we at that point, do you think the Warriors could get to that point pretty quickly? I doubt it. When you're this all in, it's for a reason you want to see this thing through. You don't commit to $180 million in luxury tags on a lark because you're like wishy-washy about the thing you want to do. I think they're pretty committed to seeing this thing through. and seeing what this group has left to give.

Now, after the season, if they do underperform and this is the third year of Clay Thompson's five-year deal where he's making 40 per, you know, Dremont is making what he's making. Yeah, I think those guys, if they underachieve this year, yeah, it's going to be a long offseason for Golden State if they underachieve. But I think they're part committed at this point.

They have to see what, these guys can continue to do or not do in certain cases. And so, yeah, I don't think anybody's on the trading block this February, but shit, man, it can get nasty this offseason. They're so wrapped up, too, in terms of their identity in not just Steph, but Steph and Dremont and Clay. You know, if you want, like, that's what made the Durant situation so different is, like, there was already a vision of what the team was before he got there.

And so it's easy to sell yourself on, oh, we'll just get back to what we were. I don't know what a Steph Curry team is without a Draymond Green. Like, that's an instrumental part of what makes him good is a playmaking big who has his back defensively, who knows exactly how to work off him. We saw last season what happens when you surround Steph with a lot of guys who don't know how to play that way. I don't know if the Warriors can really afford that. Or a lot of guys who just don't know how to play.

Right. And to that point, Rob, like, they definitely lean more into that identity as the season went on last year. And Steve Kerr has been talking this offseason a lot about doing that again, playing Draymond more at the five as opposed to maybe trying to work James Wiseman in and playing Draymond more at the four. Kaminka's probably more of four.

Do they have the wings to support that lineup? Maybe, probably. But like if a Nautil Porter goes down, like I'm not too sure there. But we'll see. Let's pivot now as number seven on our list. And that is the Philadelphia 76ers who have been in the news for three months

or so. The latest in this saga is our friend Ben Simmons showed up. unannounced it seemed like, although if you read some of the reporting, they had been, the Sixers had been in close contact with Clutch, but didn't realize he was going to show up at the arena that other day. And I don't know. And then he took a COVID test. It's very confusing stuff. But I guess it's a confusing situation, Rob, but like this Simmons showing up, being present at the facility, change your outlook on this team at all? I guess what was your kind of reaction to, to this chapter

of this ongoing saga. I mean, I say this with no insider information at all. It seems like he's just punching the clock. Like, he's there to show up to keep the checks coming. You know, like, and I don't blame him. You know, like, I think they went around, they went about this in terms of Simmons side in a way that left him vulnerable to losing a lot of money.

So like, who is to blame him for showing up and technically being there to do his job, even if, even if he never plays another game for the Sixers, you know, if he's just kind of hanging around in practice, if he's just on the facility when he needs to be to be officially a member of the team, maybe that's what they need. Maybe that's what they need to restore this whole situation to a sense of balance to the point that the Sixers can at least pursue more aggressive offers for him.

Man, when this news broke that Simmons was basically like, all right, I have to make money. I'm a working American. I'm showing up to my job. It reminded me of a couple of things. One, if I first thought of Dame Lillard's quasi trade request last summer, and basically what we got out of that was like, like, Dame didn't have the stomach for an ugly fight because it can get ugly. Are you willing? And two, and the contrast, Dame is we think about the last two actual superstars who went on the market, which is AD, and James Harden and what those knife fights entailed.

Like Hardin played games where people thought he was trying to lose. Like that's ugly. Yeah. That's nasty. Doing it in a home game. Showing up to arenas for a team that the fans know you no longer want to play for. Right? AD, they waited until All-Star Break.

But there was that funny moment, which I don't think it's talked about. enough where they knew they wanted to move him, but AD was like, I'm still willing to come to work, but they wanted to tank for the pick. So it's like, oh, we're playing them 20 minutes, and we don't want to send them right home, and it was awkward, but you have to be willing to have that fight. You know, and Dame Lillard, I don't care where anybody says,

that shit came out because he wanted to be traded. He wanted the word out that Dame Lillard wasn't happy, in Portland. And then it got like, you know, a little, and he was like, yeah, I don't have it in me. I'm not doing this shit. I'm just going to work. I don't want any fucking trouble.

I don't want the tension. I don't have it in me at the moment. Ben Simmons, look, you can say what you want. Oh, he's going back with his tail between his legs. He just doesn't want to lose money. But everybody in that building knows what time it is. Yeah. When he shows up.

And that's fucking awkward, Justin. Yes. Yeah. If I asked for a trade to the fucking Chris Vernon and KOC show behind the scenes and then I showed up to group chat today, you and Rob would be looking at me like, this motherfucker. Did you do that? No, of course not.

I love you guys too much. You just politely voiced displeasure with me and Justin behind the scenes. You don't have the stomach for the shit either, was. Actually, but that is what I'm hearing, though, when you talk about, about the Hardin situation is the key to player empowerment in 2021 is what is the famous James Hardin tweet? He's a young thug where he's talking about how James Hardin doesn't

have the internet and thus can't hear the criticism. You can't be extremely online and demand a trade. You got to just like totally disconnect. You got to have the hardened mentality of fuck it. I'm just going to go do whatever I want until I get traded. Yeah. I learned what a honey bun was from the Hardin situation though. That was big. That was

big for my clout for my street cred yeah um yeah i almost feel like he realized that by holding out he was only hurting himself one because he was losing a ton of money i think it was roughly a million dollars and also like whatever uh like image he had was also going down in dirt like if you had aspirations of being like a frontline shoe guy or whatever with nike like this isn't going to help matters by like having an entire pretty much country turning against you being like what the fuck is wrong with this guy. And two, I think Waz is right.

I think he could do more damage by being in the building just like sulking. Like everyone is like, like, let's go to the fucking pizza party. And Ben Simmons is over in the corner drinking Coke and being like, fuck these guys.

Like that is more disruptive. Justin, what happened at your childhood birthday parties? I feel like there's a trauma here. You missed the pizza parties that we had without you. Unfortunately, that's because we're trying to trade you.

Did you guys in Connecticut do the, because when I remember when I was like seven I had a couple of like well not when I was seven I had a couple but around that age at a few birthday parties at McDonald's where you would go to the ball pit

and you would do the whole thing and I remember one time my older cousin Jerry I guess he ate too many cheeseburgs and he threw up in the ball pit and nobody could go in there for the whole fucking party. Yeah Jerry.

The ball pit seems like a cesspool in retrospect. That's probably where COVID started. Don't go in the ball pit. Yeah, I don't know, man. Here's my question, I think, from all of this. Do you think there's a timeline or like a possibility that Simmons realizes his best path to getting traded is actually to play nice to mend some fences, at least superficially? Or for everyone to at the very least recognize, like, it's in everyone's benefit to get along and like try to push this team forward. Like, was, do you think there's like any way that like the Sixers come back with Simmons and B and like try to replicate what they did last year?

No. I don't. It's just too much has happened in between. Like just the two Joel press conferences by themselves, the one after game seven and the one where he comes, he's like, team wasn't built to make this guy fucking succeed. We've done nothing but count out this fucking guy. Right. So so much has happened that it can never. Because like this is a people business.

Like Ben Simmons say what you want. He's a person. He has feelings. He has the internet. He saw what Joe I had to say about him. He saw what Doc Rivers had to say about him. Like we understand this. And honestly, the best way to get traded,

none of them thinking about it is somebody who, you know, I think we tend to forget about this one because he ended up somewhere where it feels like he's been there his whole life even though he hasn't and that's Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler showed up and just started fucking kamikaze practices.

But Jimmy Butler's a different dude. And then he had Rachel Nichols ready for the interview. He set up a whole play. I don't know that Ben Simmons is that kind of guy, but I do think showing up with a pus on his face every single day, giving two-word answers, having his teammates have

to answer for him being at work every single day. That's a different kind of pressure than him just going home, you know, and it being a holdout. I think this is worse for the team, from to be there every day poisoning the well. So this is, this is only going to get spicier. The other thing about him playing, too, is there's the question of who it's for. Like, you're not convincing another general manager by rolling Ben Simmons out for 40% effort of anything. He's not convincing another podcaster in Los Angeles. Yeah, I don't know. They're either into it or they're not at this point, like what he brings to the table.

Sure. I just think, like, in a world where he did put an effort and realize that his best pathway to getting traded was to try as hard as possible, I could see a world where I forgot where I read this. It might have been K. see, but like he talked about how the Sixers wanted to use him more in a small ball lineup. And that's why they signed Nying from Utah to be more of like, to do more of like what he could do with another team if they built around his particular skill set. I just wonder if like he showcases that, then maybe you can convince some teams that like, oh, he's the guy that maybe we thought he could be going into the league as opposed to the guy

coming out of last year's playoffs. That's all. See, I disagree with you, Justin, because more he might just be crazy enough to, to think, well, this can work. If he starts killing it, like, Mori might think that, all right, well, shit, this is working. I'll keep him here long term.

It's not like I don't have a fucking four-year contract on the guy, you know? So I think if you're Ben Simmons playing well, is kind of not an option. I mean, I'm convincing myself of it, too. Like, I do think there's a world where, like, if everyone sings kumbaya together, like, this team could be pretty freaking good

because they're like, they've only made a couple upgraded on the fringe. that make them better than the product they were last year. And last year they were their best team in the East. How is it that you were like on the forefront of the blow up the Ben and Joel tandem? And now that it's blown up, you're trying to put it back together. Well, maybe it can work.

Well, yeah, I think long term they should be split up. But I think it works to a certain extent if they play them together. And I think Mori has actually been way better than previous general managers at bringing out the best of Ben or at least putting him in the situations to make the tandem. work better than it has before. But I think we're all right. I think it's very unlikely that they ever come back together and try to roll it back from last year, which brings me to the question, if there is a void for Simmons, and let's just say that they can't do it via trade because this thing is going to be mired in limbo for so long, like, who is the guy we expect to step

forward? Because they have a lot of interesting young guys, which is actually pretty impressive considering all the other assets they squandered over the past couple of years. But like, Tyrese Maxie, Shake Milton, Matisse Thibel. Rob, is there one guy of that group or maybe somebody else on this team that you think could maybe fill the void of Simmons? Yeah, I mean, it's not a one guy situation is the problem. Like, there's no analog for Ben Simmons, but by having Simmons out of the lineup, Thibel is a guy who benefits because the fit of Ben and Thibble and Embed was always

really dicey. Now that you're taking Simmons and, you know, the spacing issues he creates out of that, all of a sudden you have more room to play one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. You know, Simmons is that too, to be fair. So they're definitely losing something in that regard. As far as the ball handling, I think it's going to be a lot more piecemeal. I think it's probably more

maxy than it is Milton. I think Seth Curry's usage probably bumps up closer to what we saw in the playoffs for the regular season in terms of his ball handling and pick and roll situations. And, I mean, Doc Rivers just might have to grin and bear some Tobias Harris giving some shake off the dribble to make things work.

The fact that that dude is the last person we mentioned on that whole fucking team and he's the second highest paid player is got to be the cushiest gig in America. It's like, I don't even know, he's almost like the Yoko Ono of this situation. You know, like, is he even part of the band? We never talk about this dude. Sure. You know, as far as what makes the Sixers work, what makes them good, what makes them sing. We don't even consider Tobias Harris as part of the equation of the sixers.

We don't even think like, well, shit, man. You know, Ben's expendable because Tobias Harris plays the same fucking power forward position as him. We don't even say shit like that. This guy just gets to sign $200 million contracts and keep it pushing. The idea that, like, he is the last power forward standing of the Al Horford, Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris standoff is crazy. It's like the old guy winning squid game. Like he was low on the odds. We're spoiling squid game in here.

Come on. I didn't spoil anything. But yeah, Twyaz Harris, man, like he would be the guy you would expect to step up in this situation because he is,

I will say this, though. He did drag himself out of the point where people were talking about him as like one of the worst contracts in the league. He's fine. He's a solid player, but he's not someone you can count him

to Wazza's point. He's been a, a lot from the Simmons situation, not just being normal weird, but super weird. Like, it just takes up all the oxygen and criticism in the room. Because I think about, look, think about all the shit we give Chris Staps for Zingis, right? And his inability to be the second, that second guy

on a team with a player who we think really matters. And it's one of the best in the league. Think about all the scrutiny he gets. Tobias Harris gets none of it. He just gets to show up to work and be extremely well paid. How did this happen? And by the way, the context of Jimmy Butler

is always the context of Simmons and not Harris. It's always like, well, they did it for Ben. I'm like, shit, man. Like, did you need to re-sign Tobias Harris? Well, in total fairness to Tobias, I did think he had a good playoff run. I thought he played pretty well for them.

And that's why all the attention went to Simmons because there's all of a sudden about this dude is not doing anything in the fourth quarter in terms of Ben Simmons. He played pretty well and he got smoked by my heart. I mean, they all got smoked. Do you think Embed will be better this year just purely off of having more spacing around him?

He looks incredibly fit right now. It's the most trim, slender. I've seen them look basically since like Kansas. Lean muscle? Yeah. Well, look, I know we do this every day. Yeah, I'm vegan now. Yeah.

I change my diet up. Yeah, I'm 10 pounds of muscle. Yeah. I'm in the best shape of my life. Yeah. I've been doing ballet because of footwork. I know we're that part of the year where all these guys are talking their fucking off-season regimen up, you know, as if they've turned into Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 70s.

But on the court, like he looked. more lean. He looks more trim. He looks like he's in shape. And I know, you know, we should laud a fucking professional athlete for being in shape. It seems like it should be part of their job. But Joelle has been a big part of his failures and successes, his inability to be in shape, give 40 minutes a night, you know, run up and down the court. He looks incredible. So I think it is possible that he's going to be better than last year. podcaster equivalent of coming in, eating clean in the best shape. Is it like, I'm drinking a lot of herbal teas these days, have been really working the vocal

course. I think it's listening to a lot of audiobooks before you show up. You get the cadence. You get the cadence of the audio book. You bring that sophistication to the pod. Yeah, absolutely. It's you yesterday telling me you were coming back from the gym at like 10 o'clock at night. It's not what I said.

I didn't say the gym. I said I was coming back from a workout. I was not playing some tennis. Come on. Oh, okay. No like Olympic list for you. Just like just just bands in cardio. I don't even know what a weight looks like to be honest with you.

I have been going back to the gym, by the way, which has been quite the experience because the amount of people who do the mask under the nose thing, like it's no big deal, is fucking insane. Like I am just like I get so much extra motivation because I just want to kill these people. It's actually a big deal barrier if you're vaccinated. It's just such an easy. thing to do.

Hospitalizations are the unvaxed. So if you're vaxed, you're not going to go to the hospital. You might catch it and get a little sick with a breakthrough case, but you're going to be fine if you're vac. So don't worry about the number of the best. It's the principle. It's such an easy thing. It's the symbol of the thing.

Yeah. The symbolism. God, I fucking hate it. All right. Let's pivot now to the next team on our list. Number six, the Miami Heat, who, despite being the talk of the off season to a certain extent, then, kind of flown out of the radar here,

only because they don't have a guy who wants out of their team. But, you know, they are set up right now to be one of the more intriguing, maybe Dark Horse. I don't even know if you can consider them that. Title contenders in this rate. Here's my big question, because we talked a lot about Kyle Lowry, talked about PJ Tucker, Bam, and Jimmy and all those guys. My question, Rob, is Tyler Hero as good as he thinks he is?

Because our friend Tyler had a quote for some fucking podcast the other day, Who knows, that he thinks that he should be in the same category as Luca Trey and Jha. Do you think, well, we can probably all agree to start off with he's not on that level. Do you think he could ultimately get to that level? I mean, first of all, he's not as good as he thinks he is, but are any of us would be my question to you, Justin. That's a great question. I mean, me, but yes, continue. That's a great question because I listen to Joe Rogan, I'm like, where's my honeybill?

Put the Ivermect him down, man. If we're done reaching in other people's pockets now, when I watch Tyler Hero, I don't necessarily see a star. I see a pretty good player and a really clever score who can help his team win. And that's a really valuable player to be, but I don't know.

I don't really see that next level, again, when you're comparing yourself to that kind of company. I don't see that out of him. That doesn't mean he can't eventually be a star, but I just wouldn't say the markers are there right now. for this guy who's like just waiting to break out and needs a chance, you know?

Yeah, it feels like Tyler Hero's destiny if he's lucky is like a better Patty Mills. You know what I mean? Who's like, that's a fucking incredibly effective and potent player. He's not somebody you think about for all-star teams. He's not somebody who

necessarily changes your life if you're a middling team. But on a team that's going to go far, that's going to need shooting, that's going to need a little bit the ball handling depth. And when he can give it some type of perimeter

resistance. Look, that's a good player, but is he going to make Trey Young? Are you fucking out of your mind, bro? Like, a walking fucking 110

offensive rating with Joe's and Shmo's? Like, that's Trey Young. That's who he is. Tyler Hero. You ain't that. No. I mean, the reaction from other teams is not, oh, my God, they have Tyler Hero.

We have to guard him. It's, oh, my God, they have Jimmy and Bam and Kyle Lowry. And how are we also going to guard Tyler Hero? I just love that whenever we don't know what to do with a good but not great player, we're just like, Ben's score. Like, he's Jamal Crawford. He can't play within the team concept. You can't build a team around him.

But, like, he does stuff. But, like, okay, so like, is he, I don't want to say Ben's score, but like, next to a really good player, does he get to as good as Tim Hardaway Jr. was in the playoffs last year? It's a good comp. That's a damn good player. Yeah. But, like, nobody thinks of Tim Hardaway Jr. as life-changing, right? Like, no Mavs fans were like, yes, we re-signed T-H-GR.

Yeah. You're darned. Right. No, nobody did that when he resigned with the team. You know what I'm saying? So, like, you're one of those guys, and there's nothing wrong with that. if you can do it effectively on a great team, like think about how much we used to think about,

you know, Mario Chalmers on the Healds. Like, that was just a guy. Right. But on that team, that fucking mattered, he was vitally important to so many games. You know, both what he was doing defensively in his shot making ability,

him being somebody who could spread the floor around LeBron. Like, you start to think about these guys in a different context when they play on big teams in big games, but like by themselves, Tyler Hero? You know, I know Jack Harlow made a song about you, but like, come on, baby, you better relax. I still have no idea who Jack Carlo is, by the way. I know he gets mentioned every six months in like some NBA setting.

I know he's a white rapper and I should just have a lot of this taste for him, but I don't. I actually think he's a pretty good artist and I enjoy his music. Sure. Rob loves him, obviously. We're confident he actually exists, right? that he's like a person out of the world somewhere. Jack Carlo exists. I've seen him before. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I guess

the good thing about Hero is unlike Chalmers, who was a starter on that team who needed to be in that lineup because they were just like trying to scrounge together anyone to fill in around the big three. Like, Hero is a luxury because they have their team set and Heroes kind of the extra who could push them over the top.

I think that's the question, though. Like, do you think, Rob, like, what they have, if Hero plays around the level he was last year, is enough? Or do they need that, like, extra to like get them into the tier of the Lakers, the jazz, the bucks, so those top tier teams. They just have such a hard road ahead of them in terms of matching up with the bucks and the net specifically. Like those two teams are so good.

If they were in a weaker conference in a different year, I think you could talk yourself into it more easily. But as it stands, they're going to have to settle for being the kind of team no one wants to play against. They're going to be really tough to score on, really physical. They're going to wear you down over the course of the series. So you really just don't want them on your side of a playoff. bracket. That said, are they a high percentage threat to win the championship? I have a hard time

seeing the offense aligning for that to happen. But if it does, Hero is an important part of it. He needs to be bubble Tyler Hero, filling, you know, filling whatever scoring void is put in front of him on the nights where, you know, BAM's finishing isn't quite working, or Jimmy is struggling to get into his stuff, or Kyle Lowry is starting to look his age a little bit. If Hero can fill those moments, I mean, forget the rest of it. The rest of it, he can just be a 10, 12 point per game guy and be fine and they'll be a really good team. But if he can stand up in those moments, that would be huge for them.

I think the heat right now on October 13th, after the news that we got yesterday, have to feel a little bit better about themselves because one of the best players

on the other team has decided that he wants to die with the rebel soldiers in the mountains of Bolivia. you know, on the cause of global socialism, you know what I'm saying? Right. When a guy martyizes himself and he's what basically makes the best team in your conference unstoppable, you have to like your chances, right?

I think in a series, man, between Spolstra and Jimmy and Bam and Kyle Lowry and just the toughness, the Moxie, the veteran know-how, and I know those are platitudes, but like in the playoffs, that shit fucking matters. When you get into, you know, hand-to-hand combat, trench warfare, those guys are going to be ready for that in a way that most teams, shit, 99% of teams aren't. And so when the other team cannot just simply be the greatest offense that's ever lived anymore, you got to be happy about what you could put on the floor.

All I can think about now is somebody deep in the recesses of the heat offices, some social media person somewhere, trying to figure out how they can get COVID misinformation into Kyrie's Instagram account. If we tag him enough times, can we keep his information in front of him? Yeah. I mean, I think Waz is right. The big question every team, especially the contenders in the East is going to face is like, do you have three guys to match up with three of the best offensive players in modern history? And like, the heat were one of the few teams who could maybe say yes, right? They had Lowry, they have Butler and they have Tucker. We'll see what is left in

Tucker after going through another long, long season. But like, they have dogs as we've talked about before. I guess the question now is now that they only need two of those dogs. Like, did it almost like mitigate one of the heat's major advantages? Like, let's say Kyrie doesn't play the rest of the season. Like, they're a team based around defense. Like, do they actually need a little bit more offense now? Or are we saying, like, the heat are kind of a counter to some of these super

over offenses where, like, they, in a playoff series where it gets gritty and dirty, like the bucks last postseason, like they can shut teams down. And that's something that they can count on. Well, I think what makes the heat different from other teams is their best defenders are also their most important scores. And so not having Kyrie on the floor, the benefit of that in a potential playoff series is now Kyle Lowry gets to focus on offense. He gets to focus on running the floor, you know, dragging things out,

causing all kinds of chaos and misdirection and stuff with the, way Kyle Lowry does without having to check Kyrie Irving for a full game. That's huge. And so, you know, there's still a lot of pressure on whoever's going to guard Hardin and Durant. You would have to think it's probably Butler and Tucker, just given the way this team's laid out. But there aren't like defensive specialists here other than PJ Tucker, really. Like he is the Durant counter. But other than that, like they just need to be able to rein in the workload as much as possible of Bam and Lowry in particular because those guys are going to need to put up points.

Okay. Let's, uh, let's pivot here. our fifth team on the list. The Utah Jazz been talked about in some corners of the internets, including the ringer as a potential dark horse here after having such a monster regular season, but again, falling flat in the playoffs.

I mean, we could take this a bunch of different ways, wise, but I do think one of the big questions is Donovan Mitchell, a guy who seemed like he was ready to take, maybe not a full leap, but like a mini leap into that elite tier. Obviously, like in the all-star range, but I think we're wondering, like, is he a guy who could be just a little bit more,

maybe like all NBA, second team, all NBA, first team all NBA. Do you think he has him in it? And do you think the Jazz need that in order to be on the level of the four or three or four teams above them? Full disclosure, I'm basically in the Donovan Mitchell tank. I'm in the tank for this guy until he proves to me that he's not, right? I believe once he flashed a jump shot to pair with his explosion, like his ability to dribble past basically anybody in the world, I was like, this guy is destined for something special.

And this is a jump shot that he didn't have, right? This is this is a skill set that he didn't possess his freshman year at Louisville. He's continued to get better and better and better and better. He showed an ability to improve throughout his whole career. So it's hard for me to think that he's not going to take another step in the direction of these important guys that we mentioned earlier in the show. So with Utah, yeah, I'm pretty bullish on them for the third year in a row. Basically, since they acquired Mike Conley, I'm just like, this is a team that makes sense.

They have depth at every position. They can shoot it. They can defend it. They have a primary wing attacker who you can't just put one guy on in tight spots theoretically. I'm bullish on them again. I think the world of this team, you know, however, they got to show it. And, you know, they have to do it. This is going on year three of people being like dark horse.

Because remember, the first year to Conley situation, he was hurt. It took him a while to figure out his place with. in the offense. And then last year, him and Rudy Gober's synergy in pick and roll was better than Rudy and Donovan Mitchells, right? So they come in with all this depth, all this continuity, all this, like, you know, institutional knowledge. I just think they're going to be good.

They had the scar tissue of a team who's been, they've been through that wearing tear to playoffs. They felt bitter taste of Terrence man whooping your ass in the playoffs, right? in the series that you should have took, they felt all of that stuff. And I think they're going to come back and do it. Like, they led the league in three-point shooting and percentage. They took the most and made the most last year, right?

And this is a team historically that's known for, you know, shutting guys down. I just think this team's going to be really fucking good this year. It's just, you know, it's one of those, you know, it's one of those show me situations. You got to show me in the playoffs. Well, just a reminder on Mitchell, too, He averaged 32 points, five assists, and six rebounds in the playoffs last year.

60% true shooting. When you're torching guys in the playoffs on a bad ankle, I mean, that says to me there are probably multiple levels here. There's a lot of room to go between what we saw of Mitchell being dominant and the most dominant he could possibly be over the course of his career. So what is the next step for him? Is it like proving that he's a deeper three-point shooter? Because I know that's something like he's been working on.

steadily over the past couple years. And he's kind of really showed that he could handle that last year in particular. I think Donovan Mitchell is a reliable three-point shooter. You can't go under on him. He's going to make his spot-ups. He's, I think he's kind of proven what type of shooter he has become. But what has failed him is the free-tho-line. He hasn't been a guy who gets to the line a lot.

You look at somebody like Trey Young, who's figured, and people would say whatever the fuck they want about how he gets there, but he's figured out. I get to the line 10 times a game. I become a wholly different proposition for the defense. Until Donovan Mitchell figures out how to do that,

he's going to have to rely on extremely hot shooting from three like he had in the playoffs last year, which we all know that shit can come and go. But I think if he becomes a reliable get to the foul line 10 times a game, it's over. Well, that's the difference between knowing you can beat your guy and score and manipulating and managing and controlling games. Like Mitchell is explosive and can beat a lot of people off the dribble, can beat a lot of people with his shot. But it's about setting guys up in that way to get to the free throw line, to set up his teammates a little more consistently in certain ways. Like, that's a team that moves the ball pretty well.

But when Mitchell gets locked in, and that can be explosive and dangerous in its own right, sometimes it becomes a little too much of like just Donovan Mitchell, pressing the one button all the time. And some of that is unavoidable with the makeup of their team. I realize that. But the more you can find that balance, the more you can figure out, again,

how to see the holistic picture of the game, the more and more dangerous he's going to be because he's already coming pretty far from where he started. I mean, a great developmental success story in terms of how he reads the game as a prime, primary ball handler already. What could he be when he finally gets to the end? In his career,

he's a 39% three-point shooter in the playoffs. Last year, he shot 43% from three in the playoffs. That's staggering stuff. But again, can you go into a playoff series counting on Donovan Mitchell to shoot 43% from three? I don't think so. that's why I think he has to supplement that in his efficiency, but by forcing these people to follow him every time he gets to the cup.

And because he's somebody that you can't keep out of the lane, that's going to make him a different animal. Right. And that's the difference between a guy who's an all-star versus an all-MBA player, right? It's consistency. Yeah. It's like doing those little things that a team can count on when you need them. But, like, I mean, we're pretty much saying,

and I think if you look at just the body of work that Jazz has put in over the past couple years, like they probably have everything you'd want from a contender. They have Mitchell who, as we're saying, could take a leap this year. I mean, Gobert is one of the best rim protectors in modern history. They have all of these like continuity. They have all these guys. And I think Conley matters in the sense that when teams are loading up on Mitchell, it's not just a guy that can score.

It's a guy that can understand with the weaknesses and the defenses and find it. It's not just that he's this number two that's going to break you down. Like, all right, we went ISO ball and now I'm going to isolate. It's like, no, when you load up on this guy and I get the swing pass and I'm attacking closeouts and I'm attacking rotations, I have a deep understanding of how to hurt a defense that's in scramble mode, how to hurt a defense that's in rotation. Mike Connolly is that guy. Like, you have that supplementary piece. You have the defensive resume.

In practice, it hasn't always been the case. It's kind of like when you put proficient in word on your resume. May. And then all of a sudden, you got to do V lookups on your job interview. Sure. I think that's what's failing to Utah Jazz. Like, they have it in theory, everything that you want. They just got to go out and make it happy.

Well, I do think the Bucks comp that Divine made on the site the other day is a good one because I almost wonder what this team needs to do if the big question is in the playoffs and they can't answer that until we get to the playoffs is take a page from the Bucks's book and maybe try some stuff out, particularly on the defense event, particularly with Rudy Gay and small ball lineups as we're going through the course of the regular season.

I actually think like the plan for Utah should be worse, to be worse in the regular season with the hope of being better in the playoffs. But I think the question there is like, do we think Rudy Gay is the answer? I think we all have a high opinion of like what this team can be. I'm just curious, Rob, like, do we think that they can get there because doing so means like taking

your best player one of your best players and one of the best defenders in the league off the court which is something the bucks didn't really have to wrestle with like Brooke Lopez clearly like rehabbed his career to the point where like he was a monster defensively but like I don't think

anyone was crying over the fact that they had to take Brooke Lopez off the court in order to reach that small ball switchy level Oh when you're saying take one of your best players off the court you're talking about Hassan White's Right. Right. Which like, man, when your issue is that you have one too many plotting big man to go and get the plodious of biggest men, like it's, it's quite the, quite the move there. But I think it comes down to the situations in which you would take Rudy off the floor, they're not permanent. Like, it's matchup specific. It's for a couple minutes at a time. Like, you don't need to be doing it for full games. He's good enough and effective enough against so many different kinds of players. They're going to be able to play him playing. It's just about, you know, we have this five-minute stretch that we need to win against a small-ball lineup.

What do we do? And if Rudy Gay can be your small-ball center in those situations, that's huge. So I'm totally with that line of thinking in terms of experiment more in this regular season, do whatever kind of bubble wrapping you need to do to make sure that Donovan and Mike Conley are going to get to the playoffs in one piece. And if you can do that, they're going to have a really good chance to make some noise against a Western Conference field that is pretty chaotic. I mean, we really just don't know what could happen with the hell you.

these matchups could shake out. Yeah, and, you know, with Rudy, I think it's important that, and I think, by the way, Quinn Snyder, because he doesn't do media at all, he's like expulsion that way, where he just like, he does what is asked of him and nothing else. We don't really talk about this dude, but he's one of the best coaches in the entire NBA. Really good coach. That's the reason why he doesn't do media, but okay. Well, I mean...

Had to be digging into those skeletons. I'm just saying. Well, look, you know, we've all got a past. Come on. Not like that. Not quite like that one, but still. Yeah. I just think, you know, when we talk about Rudy,

I think Quinn Snyder has been, look, over the years, he's put this guy in a position to win. And I think when we talk about Rudy oftentimes, and I've been guilty of this very often a lot, Maybe some would say excessively in the past and concentrating on his weaknesses. No, you? And concentrating on what he doesn't do. But I think Rob is right.

It's about putting in spots where he can excel. Yeah, I think that ultra small, hyper small ball lineup that the clippers trotted out there last year, probably Rudy was going to be hard for him to succeed in that lineup, specifically because he wasn't punishing them on offense. but I think that's going to be rare that this team will find, you know, an opponent who can stretch them out that way that effectively, right?

Like, because sometimes teams are going, all right, we're going to play small ball. And when a ball handler, the level of Reggie Jackson or Paul George doesn't have the ball, it's going to be some guy who spaces theoretically, but he can't hurt me on a closeout. Terence Man turned into a fucking Tasmanian devil on their asses. What were they supposed to do about that?

Shout out, by the way, to the newly extended Terrence man. Congrats. Bro, that was a great deal. That was a great deal by the Clippers. 20 million for two years for that level of player. Do you think about the production he gave them as an aside? Mikel Bridges is about to sign an extension. It ain't going to be for $10 million a year.

And that's essentially what. Terrence Mann was providing them in the playoffs last year. So great deal by the class. I think we need to hold off on the Terrence man is the next Michael Bridges. That's what he did. That's what he did. Yeah, no, he had a good playoff run. And I'm very, like, happy for him and his family. And I think he's a good player.

But let's see him do it over course. He's not the next McCill Bridges. Yeah, let's see him like stick in the rotation for an entire regular season. Just I'm just saying. What it did feel like was he's going to have a lot of opportunity this year, a lot of chance to play. And if he pops, that deal is going to look like an incredible value.

And if he does it, then it's going to be fine. Like, they can live with that. As a Terrence Man-truther, McHale Bridges, they never drop 40 in no damn NBA player. What is this? What are we doing? I'm just saying, Terrence Man-Hive, let's do it. But I think Waz's overall point that, like, you know,

the big competition in the West is going to play bigger. Like, the Lakers are a big team. The Sons are a big team. I think you just always have to worry a little bit about, like, maybe the first round where it's like, yeah, the Nuggets. It's another really big team. Like, Warriors, if they go small balls, would that be like the type of team that can give

the jazz more fits than they should, the Mavericks, the type of team that has those dynamic wing scores? Like, I don't know. So we'll see what happens there. But let's turn to number four here. Because you can go as small as you want, Justin. But if your small guys aren't legitimate dribble pass and shoot people, it's not as hard to guard. Like, Draymond Green in the small ball lineup, I'm sorry, when you catch it at the three,

point line, I'm not in the scramble mode. I'm not worried about it. I'm not worried about you attacking the close out. I'm definitely not worried about you shooting it. What the clippers did to them last year was put five guys in the court who could pass dribble and shoot. And, you know, Rudy Gobert was expected to guard legitimate perimeter threats.

Most teams can't do that team. Right. That's a good point. All right, let's flip to number four here because we're starting to talk about them a little bit, which is the Phoenix Suns. Big question, really, because they bring back pretty much everybody. Did Robert Sarver fuck up the vibes? Because

DeAndre Aiton is already a little unhappy that he is not most likely going to get a max extension for the deadline next week. He finally talked about it. Basically, he felt disrespected, yada, yada, yada. McHale Bridges, another guy up for a rookie contract extension. Not really sure

where that one stands. I haven't seen much reporting on that, but was, this is the classic case of a bad owner potentially sticking his nose in where he shouldn't and maybe causing a little bit more discomfort or bad, just chemistry than you would like for a team coming off a finals run and hoping to do so again. I think the bad press that Sarve is getting for this is often past performance.

To be honest, more teams should do this. Really? Yeah, what's the point? Why? Why do I have to give it to you right now? Why? If the point, if as Don Draper says, the money is what matters and the money is how I show you I care. And you eventually get the money.

Paraphrase. That's what the money is for. Yeah. But you're going to get the money. He's not going to lose out on any money. He's just not getting the guarantee right now. Fuck off, rookies. Get out of here.

You're a young guy. I don't have to kow to you. You've never done shit for me, bro. Like, I wish more teams did this. instead of fucking Glenn Taylor saying, Andrew Wiggins promised me he's going to be great one day. Here's $200 million. Like, I'm sorry with these extensions.

I guess the precedent has been set. And a lot of this stuff, people who are listening don't understand the sort of culture of the league, right? A lot of it is vanity. It is like for a guy to feel like my team took care of me as soon as they did because I'm important, right? It makes you feel more important. But you don't get paid at an,

earlier date because they gave you the extension now rather than when your contract actually fucking ends. Well, just think about what Aitin said, which is he wants to be respected like his peers are being respected by their teams. To your point about, like, it is about status. It is about vanity. But I'm on the other side of this, Waz where I think this kind of stuff can be really important.

I do not, under any circumstances, underestimate the vibes. Like, if Aiton hits restricted free agency and signs an offer sheet for a a three-year deal with a player option, he gone. Like, that's the way these things go sometimes. It's like you, you play hardball with some of these guys who are really important to your team for the sake of like saving a little bit on the front end. And you may get those savings, but you pay for it with their, whether it's their free agency or the fact that they just bolt down the line.

It can be really destructive for a team, especially one like the sons who they're not going to get cap space. They're not going to get some huge opportunity by hardballing DeAndre Aden. Robert Sarfer is just going to pay a lot. a little less money for their team not to be as good because he's going to be a little bit unhappy. So I feel you, and I think there's, I think there's something to

DeAndre Ait in playing the way that he played in such a selfless manner, in such a team-oriented manner that actually contributed to W's that isn't scoring 25 a game. When you play with his money, it makes him think about like, damn, why did I do all of that?

for them to now say they're not going to pay me. There's something to be said for that. There's something to be said for basically playing like Rudy Gobert and getting paid for it, you know, like Rudy did. But, like, most times you don't. Or in the past, that hasn't been the case. However, too much cowtowing to the young guys. Yeah.

If you want to use a counter example of what's happening with Aiton, it is in Philadelphia, where they have done nothing but hands. handhold, call these guys the process, legitimize the horrible basketball that was played. The basically borderline G-League teams that they put out on the court. They said, we did all of that ugliness for these two special guys. And you're so special. Ooh, you're so special, Benny, you're so special.

And then what? Now look at it. This dude goes out and shits the bed in the playoffs, and he comes out and does a holdout. He's so freaking special. And he's never done anything for them when it mattered. He has his money. He has his status.

He's never produced. And I think that's a direct result of them kissing ass from the beginning. And I think the Phoenix Suns have every right to play hardball with this dude. Why don't I feel like you're about to go on a rant against participation trophies? Listen, don't get me starting on that. But like the Aidan situation is different because he did get them somewhere. He was a really important part of them going to the NBA freaking finals. Yeah, it's really hard to watch him do that, to do all the dirty work.

You wanted him to do for his first couple seasons and not reward him for that, especially because during last postseason, I forgot who mentioned it. It might have been Zach Lowe, but part of what I think incentivized Aiton to do those things that we wanted him to do for so long was the feedback loop and the constant praise for doing so in the playoffs. He was on a very public stage playing the type of divvents. we always wanted him to, and he was getting the praise for it, to now take that away from him? I don't know.

Like, I don't necessarily disagree with you wise, but, like, this is all, like, psychology and, like, I mean, the NBA is becoming just catering to your best players. And, like, if you're going to, like, roll out the red carpet and let Katie run your team, why not just give DeAndre Aiton the money he's going to get from the jump, you know? I don't know. It's like, what is the risk reward here?

I think there's more risk than reward. I hate to be Stugat's here, but I'm going to. DeAndre Aiton, do it again, and then do it again in the playoffs. And then do it again in the finals. Sure. And then you'll get your money. Well, one last no with this stuff.

There is a danger for sure. With Aiton and McKeel Bridges up for extensions, what happens if Bridges gets his extension or his money and Ait doesn't? Like what you can breed in terms of some of the interpersonal team dynamics could get a little dicey. He's going to get way less. He's going to get at max.

25 per. Aiton is trying to get like 32, 33 per. He's trying to get the baby max. McHale Bridge is not going to get a max. Probably not. He's going to get a really nice contract probably worth $100 million. Eight and once, 170? I'm sorry.

If you look, I'll give you a hundred right now if that's what you want. Yeah. I also, to watch his point in terms of like this being good negotiation tactic, I do think we talk about the boogeyman of the team throwing. a big old restricted free agent offer at a lot of these players. And it never really comes because teams are so worried about having to sit out a couple of days in order for the other team to match and or just like go through the process of like even doing that. Like John Collins, where did that come from? He ultimately got paid. But like did it matter? I don't know. Like I do

think like from a coldhearted business perspective, it probably does make more sense to wait on some of these guys to maybe like not give those max players the player option on the last year and actually force them to go get that from somewhere else. I don't know. Justin, call me whatever you want. I'm the most pro player person that's ever existed. You played at an elite level for like seven games last year. That's true. I did. A lot of pounds. Relax. Just relax. Do it again when people see you coming. Okay. Like do it like, like, like I'm sorry. Show me, bro. Like, like, you're still going to get that amount of money if you prove to be worth that.

It's not that I don't think you're not going to prove it again, but it's like I don't have a reason to not doubt you because you're in the fucking contract. Okay. Having said that, I want my money now, and I'm not going to continue this podcast unless it do. All right. Now let's turn to the reigning champion Milwaukee Bucks.

So we have number three on this list. I'm actually curious because I do think the Kyrie Irving news maybe affects them the most. Rob, let's just assume that Kyrie isn't going to be there for large portions of the regular season or let's say the entire regular season in playoffs. Do you think the Bucks A are the biggest winner from that? And would you put them any differently

or would you place them any differently on this list based on the Kyrie news? Well, it's an interesting question because I don't know how they got to three. Are we that sold on the Lakers that they're the number two team in the NBA? right now? I am.

They have an easier path to get to the finals and thus because they don't have to go through the nets. And so I would get the Lakers the edge for that reason. I get that thinking. But just in terms of which team is better to me, it's open and shut. The Bucks are definitively a better team than the Lakers are coming into the season. Maybe the Lakers evolve or make moves or, you know,

Trevor Areza is amazing and we all revise our opinions a couple of ones in. They got Mello and Rondo and Dwight Howard, all of these former All-Stars, man. They do have some guys. For sure. But I mean, of course the Bucks are the chief beneficiaries of Kyrie Irving situation. If he's not available for the playoffs, their lives are significantly easier. That said, the Nets are still the Nets.

And we saw what they look like with just Kevin Durant. That's a hell of a team. We saw that they look like. James Harden on one leg, right, in the seven games. Absolutely. So they're going to be incredibly dangerous no matter what. But the Bucks are in a great position to contend. They're in a great position to try to run this thing back.

Yannis, as we've talked about a bunch of times, has just kind of hit a totally different gear and level that can elevate this team. And they're in a position to take the regular season a little bit slower, a little bit more patiently than they have and hopefully get everyone healthy through the finish line. The Bucks have for years been a pretty talented team. They got Drew Holiday up in there and became an even more talented team. They've been talent rich for a while.

However, they haven't played like a very smart team, right? We watched them in the playoffs, boneheaded mistakes on both ends of the court. throughout the entire freaking playoffs. And when they got it right, guess what? They were elite at defense. They were some of the best defense I've ever seen played between Janice and Drew Holiday, both at the point of attack, at the rim,

switching out on guys. That was defense that's just unheard of. I think they're going to be a way smarter team going forward because they got the answers to the test last year. They went to the finals. They went through the playoff crucible. They've been forged in the fire. All of the fucking cliches you want to make.

What's the other one? Diamonds have made from pressure and all of that shit. All of that. They're all of that. So I think they're going to actually be better this year. However, I think the Nets with James Hardin, still a better team, still more reliable in what they can do offensively to you. Obviously, we saw the Nets do what they do on defense, but we'll talk about the Nets.

I just think the Lakers, if I'm in a playoff series where LeBron is, you know, basically dragging this out to, you know, 80 possession games where he's walking it up the whole time and he's dictating each and every play and what happens against the Bucks, give me the fucking Lakers and LeBron. I'm sorry. They haven't had a track record of proving it in the highest pressure situations as long as long as LeBron has. No, no doubt.

And so that's why I think the Lakers are a better team for the playoff format. In a one-game elimination scenario, which we don't have in the NBA, the Lakers played a Bucks. I'm like, mm-hmm. Bucks have a pretty good chance, right? But in a seven-game scenario where people have to figure things out, where that chess match does matter, I don't have as much confidence in the Bucs, even though they did win the playoffs against a bunch of injured teams last year.

this might be kind of counterintuitive, but like I have more faith in the Lakers as a seven game team and more faith in the Bucks as a four series team. Like the Lakers could lose in the second round, I would not be surprised. But the Bucks, I think are built for a longer stretch. And some of that was, I think you nailed it.

Like the hidden upside with this team is how often and how quickly they're getting into their best coverages, their best stuff. Like if they can, you know, close the distance between who they are every night and the best version of the Bucks, they could be really, really dangerous again. Yeah, I do think unlike the Lakers, unlike a LeBron team, the fourth and fifth guys, the six guys, matter a little bit more on a team like the Bucks.

Even though you have Janice potentially tapping into the peak of his powers, like those type of spots are going to matter more. And Bobby Portis came back, which is a big one, especially after the playoff run he had. But I don't know. Other than that, there's still a lot of rolling of the dice. He's been Dante DiFincenzo. Might not be ready for the start of the season. He's injured. Are we confident that the Bucks did enough in support of their big.

three now, Middleton, Janice, Drew, in order to be a better team. Like, they clearly figured something out last postseason. I think, like, they could get back to being more of an elite regular season team like they had been in years past, but I'm curious, Rob, like, I don't know, are we confident the Connitons and, I don't know, the Rodney Hoods of the world, the Grayson Allen, that that is enough to make up the difference. Not totally. I think they have some work to do in terms of just kind of shaping their rotation. If you remember, this is a team that needed like occasional big performances from guys like Bryn Forbes, like needed him to come in and hit a bunch of shots.

Can Grace and Allen be that kind of player? I think there's some precedent for that. But in huge games, it's just a totally different level of pressure. They're going to need to kind of be on the lookout for ways they can punch up the rotation like they did with PJ Tucker last season, seizing on those kinds of opportunities. So they're obviously going to miss PJ. They're going to miss what he brings defensively. But this is a team that I think not only with that acquisition,

but historically has been pretty creative in terms of like, let's just find a way to get a random rotation player in in the middle of the season. Let's package a bunch of second round picks. Let's work the waivers in these particular ways. Like, they've found ways to find guys. So right now I think they are short, probably a player, maybe too,

depending on if some of these guys are reliable or not, like is Rodney Hood going to be healthy or not as a big variable for them. But I think they can figure it out, which is the important thing. Yeah, and the issue is obviously Tucker not being there. is definitely a hole, especially on the defensive end. I'm just worried that considering the amount of resources they've poured into getting Drew Holiday and even getting Tucker back in there at the deadline last year, like, how do they even get that guy?

Like, you really need DeVincenzo to just be healthy and to be the type of young guy with upside who could fill that little void there because, I don't know, they don't have, I mean, Stepian rules prevented them to trade their pick for a while. I don't know if they have. I think they only have like a couple seconds they could trade. It's going to be very, very difficult. Maybe they, like, get the ring chasers. Maybe they get the next Marvin Williams on the buyout market, but they're going to have

competition for that. I mean, the Lakers are probably going to be front and center of that race just like they were last year. So we'll see what happens. But I mean, like the Lakers is a good time to pivot to them because they're number two on our list, obviously. I also think the question there is depth because obviously there's going to be fit concerns with Westbrook and AD and Ron just considering, you know, what Westbrook does.

But like, we talked a lot about how they did so well in the. buyout market got all these wings. All of a sudden the preseason, one, they're dropping like flies. And two, like, I don't know if I was all that convinced that they had enough three and the guys to begin with. And like, Mello was starting games. Wayne Ellington all of a sudden is like the second coming of a three-point shooter. Like, I don't know, John Paxton or whoever you want to put in that role.

I don't know. It's just, it's looking a little shakier than even I think the most skeptical people would have had in this offseason was. Where are you on your Lakers? odometer because I do think you were one person who like maybe was high then am I remembering correctly based on like what they did on the fringes so I was well on the fringes I think they did what they had to do in the sense that they had a mandate to get shooting around a team that has russell westbrook on it and who's going to figure prominently on the team and they got

the shooting um what they don't have is perimeter defense and they're going to have to cobble that together between switchable AD, LeBron actually trying, Westbrook actually like doing it, they're going to have to figure that part out of it. And I think it's possible. And I remember when I made the 180 on the Lakers because I was like super down on the Westbrook thing. And I just had the epiphany. I was like, look, you know, and Rob made fun of me for this.

But I was like, look, like, why can't Rushbrook? Westbrook be just as good as Rondo and Dennis Schrooter in their roles that they played for the Lakers the last two seasons? And Rob, I think the quote was, well, why can't you fill up a teacup with a garden hose or something like that? Like, yes, you can do it. It can do the job. But that's not what it's made for. And, you know, I think a lot of times, oftentimes in life, if I could get philosophical for a second, the question we're asking ourselves is can people change?

Can people change? Can people change? And call me romantic, call me a sucker, call me an idiot. I think Westbrook has the ability to change. I was not expecting this. This is a huge pivot. A role with LeBron James, the four-time NBA champion, probably the second greatest player who's ever dribble the basketball.

I believe in Westbrook's ability to change. Let's just clip that and ship it, because I think you just did the outro for Russ's new documentary right there. Yeah, I don't know, man. It's just... I think people can change, but I think after you've done something for like a decade, I think the odds are set to unlikely that he will.

Let me say this about Russ, though. I think one of the things we're probably discounting or not valuing enough for this team, is the fact that, as Zach Cramm wrote this week, they're projected to be one of the oldest teams in NBA history. As we've already seen some of the injuries that have come up over the course, even of the preseason, Westbrook is an innings eater. He will fill it up in the regular season.

He will carry you through games. Again, provided he can stay healthy could be a huge part of just kind of filling out the rotation and making guys who are fringe players, who are not always super effective in a wide variety of situations, but making them viable as spot. up guys as people who can play off of him. That could be tremendously valuable for this team, but he has

to stay healthy. Like that in itself is a huge variable. Yeah, I actually don't think the Lakers are expecting Russ the change. I think they want him for that reason you bring up Rob. I think they want him to carry them through the regular season. They want someone that LeBron can kind of just like hitch his wagon to get him to

the playoffs so he can be playoff LeBron because last year he didn't even get the chance really to do so. My question is like, did they overcorrect? Did they say to themselves their biggest concern was we couldn't make it through however many games it was last year journey in order to take advantage of that special LeBron? But did they go to Westbrook a type of player who's going to get them through the regular season and cause more concerns than the playoffs? That's my big concern here is that they're going to be a better regular season team and a worst playoff team, which is not what you want from a LeBron James team at what age 38 is he next year, 37? I mean, I just believe that all things are possible through our Lord and Savior, LeBron James.

Okay. I just really feel that way. All right. He's going to be 37, by the way. I just looked it up. Jesus died at 33. There you go. So this should be fine.

He's ahead of the game here. Yeah. I mean, I think we'll look back on this in the most likely scenario be that we, we wrung our hands a bit too much about Kendrick Nunn minutes and Malik Monk minutes. And as long as LeBron is in a playoff series and healthy and AD is motivated, like, they should be fine because like the formula for their title two years ago was, yes, get them into those situations. And then like, oh, Rondo's all of a sudden hitting threes and like KCP's doing enough to get them by.

Like they need Rust to be playoff Rondo essentially. And maybe not even that. Is that so hard to do? That is the optimum. Rob is not convinced. Look, all I know is it's not like there's, you know, obviously there's no history of people on group chat or people on Ringer NBA podcast discounting the Lakers

because of a weird fit. That's never happened before, has it? Right. And here's the thing. The LeBron and AD pick and roll is such a dangerous proposition for teams. They freak out. They pack the freaking paint.

suck in all the way where there's like three or four guys around that thing. And the kinds of shots that people have to make, you know, Mark Morris was not a shooter, guys. He was not somebody who people was like, oh, he's a stretch four. He's a stretch five. Nobody thought of him that way. He was making practice threes in the playoffs. So when LeBron and AD get into that action

and they're forcing defenses to make tough decisions, and decent players get to take easy shots. I don't know. I think it's not that hard to figure out that they're going to be pretty good when it comes down to the nitty-gritty. All right. Then let's get to our final team here

because I think we can all assume they're going to be quite good. I think the question is, like, how great can this team be? And that is the Brooklyn Nets number one in everybody's lists. I think they would probably still be number one, even if they didn't have Kuyah. actually quickly. Do you guys agree with that?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think they're probably number one, but they're not as overwhelming a favorite. Absolutely not when you consider James Hardin's postseason history. Right. Right. And he would be counted upon to be a guy that's doing stuff, you know, namely beating one-on-ones. Obviously, the playmaking's always there, but it's about can you beat one-on-ones when people are switching on you? and, you know, possession after possession, can you be a 30% plus usage guy

in a seven-game series against the best defenses in the league and be efficient? You know, that's the question that's going to be posed to James Harden if, you know, Kyrie doesn't come back from, you know, being a Leninist, working man,

man of the people, you know, sees the means of production patriot. Right. That's the question that we're going to, to be asking ourselves until Kyrie Irvin comes back. Well, not to question Kyrie's resolve with all this, but it's hard not to wonder if we'll just see him at some point this season, if he'll decide, you know what, I'm sitting at home.

This mandate's not going anywhere. And just on a human level, Kyrie's going to be sitting there watching Hardin and KD do what he signed up to do with KD. You know, bring this team back to relevance, bring this team through a long playoff run. he's not going to be a part of it, I think that would be a very difficult thing to just sustain over the course of a season. And on another level, guys,

and, you know, I know we've been making jokes throughout the course of the podcast about this, the Nets told Kyrie to fuck off. I've been re-watching Secession Season 2 in preparation for the TV prestige pod, and it never dawned to me in real time, but the word fuck off comes up a lot in that series. the Nets told him to fuck off.

And I think they had the tacit approval of the most important guys on the team, which is Steve Nash, James Hardin, Kevin Durant. And so when you no longer get in the backing from the people who matter over there and the powers that be can now do whatever the fuck they want with you, now that you no longer have that backing, that's a different proposition. So I like Justin think he's going to eventually come to his senses, although, you know, the former first son said that he's making a biggest sacrifice to Kaepernick. So, you know, God, God.

Yeah, I think this conversation can go in a lot of different ways. I think we can all just agree quickly. We just went to Don Jr., so. Yeah, I think we can all agree that, like, vaccination, we're pro-vax podcast and, like, everyone should be vaccinated. I do think the more interesting thing is what Wads brings up is that the Nets finally put their foot in the ground and said to Kyrie no, because this is a team that not so quietly, the point where Mark Stein, who is like, Mark Stein, a credible journalist, but it does a lot

to protect his sources and rarely gets into the opinion business, had a column basically telling the nets, like calling them out being like, take control of your team again. Like, this is one of the, I don't want to call a player empowerment, because that phrase has just become so fucking stupid. I hate that's fucking phrase. But like, this has been the prime example of a, of a team that's just completely overrun and being run by the players. KD is making pretty much the calls here, which is probably why they didn't even consider trading Kyrie when this first started happening. But like, I don't know. And on one hand, I do think this is the Nets saying to Kyrie, no, finally. And it's good to see that because this has gotten way too far. This is a public health

concern. And I think it is like it's incumbent on them to tell their employee that like this is putting a lot of people at risk. At the same time, to the city of New York to, to tell them that like they had to finally do something about the situation. This wasn't like them saying from the outset, like, oh, no, if you're not going to be vax, don't even bother to show up to training camp, don't even get on the Zoom immediately, yada, yada. It took weeks and weeks and weeks until this is pretty much like they finally had to say something. Like, this was probably a last resort sort of thing. And like, I'm not even sure if they're going to find him for not doing so because they're the ones who are telling him to stay away. So I don't know. Like, I think, I think this is actually probably

like more of a sign of like how sad things have gotten to where like, teams are pretty much vessels for whatever player wants. And like, I don't want to sound anti-player because, like, if you're a star player, get whatever you want. But like, but I do think this is like... It's not anti-player to say this guy's fucking ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. I do think it got to a ridiculous point.

And I don't think the Nets deserve any credit for finally telling him what, like, is pretty like a normal thing to tell an employee if you're not going to follow the rules. I'll say this. Last year in my previous job, we talked to Sarah Kustak, who is the play by played person, I mean, she's the color commentary person for the Nets, probably top two or three broadcasts, local broadcasts in the league, her and Ion Eagle. Somebody who I really respect is obviously plugged in with the Nets. I remember asking her about Kyrie's PTO last year, where he's literally randomly taking

fucking days off and doing whatever fuck he wants, right, on that team and says, how is that playing with them. She was like, look, here's the stance of the guys over there. When he's here, he kills. When he's here, he's hooping his ass off. And to Kari's credit last year, he was playing defense to a level. I never saw him last year. He was sharing the ball.

He was playing the best ball of his whole fucking career last year in the midst of all the divest shit he was doing. But what she said, and it stuck with me, when he's here, he kills. and that's all we care about. When he's here, he's busting ass. He's not here. So that's no longer part of the equation. The Nets have said, you don't get to be here.

And as a team who's trying to build towards something, a guy who's basically chosen not to be there in the trenches with them, that's different. That's why the Nets feel empowered and feeling bolden to do this. Because the guys are like, fuck this dude. He's not here. He's not even here. So, you know, I'm so happy this happened.

Well, it just felt totally untenable. You know, like, if they had tried to do that you're just going to play road games thing. We're just making new rules for Kari fucking Irvin, the third best player on the team. But just the idea that he would, he would, like, be unavailable to play for a five-game homestand or for a time to even practice with the team before that was clarified. Like, these things were just not going to fly. They're just not a thing that can work in an. NBA ecosystem. Well, can I throw a quick counter to that? Like, is that any different than him

taking unscheduled, like, vacations or whatever he did last year? Like, if you're willing to play through that, like, why not play through this? This is a step too far. He didn't take 41 PTO day. Yeah, it's just too many. You don't get that many. Unless you're, I'm like, yo, Sarah, I got, I think I got about 140 hours in PTO. I checked on ADP, you know, but whatever, it's scheduled. And I could, you know, say it advance or whatever. And my colleagues have the same amount of PTO as me and all of that. This dude's just taking off. Well, here's the thing.

If you count your PTO not in the hours of the day, but in the minutes of the game that you would have missed, then you can stretch it out. That's the case. Well, it also rolls over from previous years. So maybe he had a crude enough to do so. Yeah, what a fucking situation, man. What a weird time we're in. I don't know. I think it is pretty telling, though, that we're still saying that the Nets without

Kyrie Irving are still considerable or at least enough of a favorite when we have a LeBron James team, Janus, at his peak. I just don't know how we got to this point where the Nets just became this juggernaut with three of the best offensive stars and yet a bench that could rival anyone. He can only play on super teams, so that's why. Well, think about it this way. If Kyrie had never been a part of this equation

and it was just oh my God James Harden and Kevin Durant just teamed up for a super team it would be no question this is these are the favorites must see TV every single night

those are two of the best offensive players of all time so like the Kyrie thing is a huge cloud over the team and we'll have to see how it eventually resolves but just those two guys

that's enough that those two guys and a lot of versatility a lot of options that's enough I know this will never happen, but the suggestion I made months ago about just trading Kyrie for Ben Simmons makes so much sense now. They don't have the same mandates in Philadelphia. Kyrie and Joel fit together better than Ben and Joelle.

And you get more defense with Ben Simmons. He's not as dynamic and offensive player. Like it won't happen for a variety of reasons, but am I wrong? I don't know that you trade for Kyrie Irvin. No, you're right for basketball reasons. But for human being reasons, I don't know how you trade. for Kyrie Irvin. I don't know how you talk yourself

into doing something like that. Especially when he's like threatening to quit basketball altogether if he gets traded. I don't know how like legit that report is. But like, yeah, if he's he's going to go kamikaze and completely just like just not show up.

Like he's just not going to even play for anybody to the point where he's like Ben Simmons, but even worse. Like yeah, it seems unlikely. Yeah, this was a place he wanted to be. Like he signed up to play for the Nets and he's still doing this.

Imagine if you trade him to the Sixers wherever he doesn't want to play for the Sixers. Yeah. All right. Any other things we could talk about the Nets here? I mean, clearly they're deep as hell. Are we concerned at all about the defense? Like, what is the Achilles heel for this team, Rob, if there is one? I think it's probably, you know, the big man rotation. The big man rotation, they have lots of theoretical options. All of them are older. All of them are limited in their own ways. I mean, like, do we really think Lamarcus Aldridge is standing up a Joelle and Bede, for example? Like, say that hypothetically the Sixers figure out, their whole thing and are a formidable playoff team. Like if you're playing high end really good centers, that could be tough or just kind of making those guys move. Like, are you trusting Paul Millsap and

Blake Griffin to be your rim protectors? I think in some situation, sure. But between that and like, they're probably one wing short. I think they could use like one more good kind of someone in that Jeff Green spot. Theoretically, James Johnson is that player. But James Johnson has not had a Jeff Green

level track record, which, I mean, Jeff Green is a pretty erratic track record as it is that tells you something about James Johnson. But I like all the depth on the perimeter is really good. I think they actually have some pretty good perimeter defenders with the Javon Carter's and the D'Andre Bembri's like that group, I think could be really good for them combined with obviously bringing in Patty Mills is huge. The offensive firepower they already have. But how they manage the front court is definitely going to be interesting. It's just a shame that we might not get Kyrie, Harden, K.D., all healthy, surrounded by Joe Harris or whatever amazing.

role player you want to throw in there, Blake Griffin, because this team would be really fun to watch. I mean, what did we get? Only like a handful of games of the three of them together last season. It's just like that first round, the first round series against the Celtics where they just picked that, pick the whole franchise apart. Like they, they created institutional level change in the Boston Celtics is what they did. Yeah. Maybe we'll get it somewhere down the line when maybe the Vax mandates change or Kyrie decides to join the party here. But we'll see. We'll see. That is it, I think, for the power rankings, four episodes, multiple hours. We finally made it, friends.

We are going to turn to actual basketball reactions starting next week because, wow, I can't believe it. The season tips off next Tuesday. We're going to be doing some stuff for NBA preview Paloosa that Tuesday leading into opening tip. So stay tuned for that. Follow was on Twitter and Instagram, but not Rob and I. And we'll be back on Wednesday following the opening games to break it all down. But until then, my friends, we'll see you next time for Rob, for Was, for myself, for Isaiah Blake, we're going in on production.

We'll see you next time.