The Ringer NBA Show - NBA SOS: Our Plans to Save the Lakers and Warriors | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 7, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos join to discuss the Warriors' and Lakers' nightmare seasons and try to draw up a plan to save them. First, they talk about the Warriors' internal issues and consider if they should trade one of their disgruntled, young players; one of their struggling veterans; or both (4:57). Later, they cover Darvin Ham’s recent troubling quotes, consider whether the Lakers should make Austin Reaves available in trade talks, and debate if Dejounte Murray would be a good fit (44:35). Buy tickets for the live show in Indianapolis here!  The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. Justin Verrier joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, still in New York, big Waz.

We're going to talk about the Lakers. We're going to talk about the Warriors. But while, since you're still in New York, I wanted to ask, are the streets just a buzz with Quentin Grimes fever, given this Nix resurgence? I think people, what I was hanging out with about three of my closest Nick fan friends the night that they played the Sixers caught the game at a bar in the West Village,

which was a pretty good time. No free plugs, because we make money off of advertisements on this show. But yeah, the conversation, what was my favorite part of the conversation, they reciting OG Ananobe's plus minus in the three games

that he's appeared in. And my boy rap, shouts to rap, he was like, that's got to be a record. So it's safe to say that they're really excited about the OG. Of course, Quentin Grimes finally getting run is fun. It's really cool to hear Nick Vans, who were so invested in the idea that RJ was going to pan out someday,

finally accepting the reality of like, oh, it was time. I'm so happy. I don't have to root for those bricked corner threes anymore. And so I think guys are really excited about all. Although, like I did put on my Twitter, I got yelled at when I suggested that Bam out of bio was better than Julius Randall. Just an objective fact of basketball, by the way.

Yeah, just plain truth. You know, yes, he's probably not as good, quote, unquote, at isolation buckets as Julius Randall is. I'll freely admit that. But he's literally better at every single thing else that you want to do on a basketball court. And, you know, the idea was just like, you know, could Bam out of Bio lead us to 47 wins with Reggie Bullock?

Absolutely not. You know, and so Nick fans are all in on this team. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, you can't talk to somebody who has a bad thing to say about even, you know, Julius Randall at this point. Because remember, the body language police were killing them the year after the 47 wins with Reggie Bullock. And so the year after they, you know, they got pants by the Hawks. So, like, people have even turned on Julius Randall

and, like, they're all in on Tibbs. They're all in on all of this stuff. IQ had one of the best cue ratings of any Nick I can freaking remember, honestly, which lines up. He hadn't gotten paid yet. You know, it's sort of like the backup QB thing where he's like every fan base his favorite person because he's never had to do anything and come through for anyone.

And so people love him. But other than that, man, Nick fans are riding on a high right now. especially after the trade. How did they take the news, though, was, when you broke it to them that individual game plus minus is kind of a fallacy? Like, that seems like a pretty hard cliff to fall off. Listen, when you consider the lack of success

of the New York Knicks, essentially since 2001, you know, I think they have a right to be a little over the top in their happiness for what the team is doing right now. I'm happy for them. Like, bro, like, you got to really think about the Steve Francis Stefan Marbury back courts, right? Or the Eddie Curry, Jerome James, front courts.

Like, we've really got to go back to Clarence Weatherspoon, starting at the three for a few games. Like, this has been so bad. The entirety of the Larry Brown era, like, it was just, it's gotten so bad. do you guys remember when Cheney was the coach? Yeah. Like, there's just so many crazy things that have happened since 01.

You know, it's hard for me to be like, these guys need to temper their expectations and their enthusiasm for what the team is doing right now. No, we're not here to rob anyone of joy on this podcast, Justin. That's just not what we do here. Unless you're a Golden State Warriors fan. Yeah, I was going to say, like, I appreciate fan bases that aren't rational anymore because I feel like basketball coverage, sports coverage in general is a little too

buttoned up. I like a good psychopath. There probably isn't a more psychotic fan base, especially right now, than the Golden State Wars. And I say that endearingly because I love tapping into what people are griping about this week. And there has been a lot going on here with the Warriors. We're going to try to do our best to save both of these legendary franchises before the trade deadline. So we'll get to that. but I do want to talk about some of the stuff that's floating around with the Warriors. I kind of want to start with Jonathan Kaminga because in a lot of ways, everything tends to circle back to this. I missed the game against the Nuggets Live. And so I saw the story about Kaminga before I saw the actual benching of him.

And I have to say, my first reaction was running to the athletic to complain about your playing time is similar to like recording yourself crying after you, had a bad day. I was like, what millennial bullshit is this that this dude who's been pretty good for a couple games all of a sudden is demanding out or whatever? But then I watched the game and I was like, oh, it's pretty bullshit. They didn't play the entire fourth quarter. It kind of is. It's just very weird, Rob. The same thing jump out to you. Well, it was weird watching it, especially the contrast between in that game against Denver, Michael Malone went with Peyton Watson over Michael Porter Jr.

And it was the right call. And then contrast with, not only did Steve Hurgo with Andrew Wiggins over Jonathan Cumminga, but he went with him above and beyond the normal rotation. And so, yeah, if you're Jonathan Cummega, a guy who's been playing well,

a guy who I think on this podcast, we've been pretty skeptical of over the years, wondering when is he going to show up, when is his game going to take a leap? He's played well for the Warriors this season. He deserves minutes, not because he's some, like, you know,

some legendary stories about his work ethic, he's just one of their best forwards. And why you're choosing not to play that guy when your team is so clearly behind the eight ball, I can only point to the fact that Steve Kerr clearly does not trust him the way he trusts other players. And that's a problem. Yeah, and it's crazy. A lot of times in our jobs, we find ourselves being hypocrites in the sense that I was

annoyed that Kamenga's bitching and moaning became a story, yet here we are potting about it because it became a story. thereby adding to the problem. But at the same time, like, I'm annoyed with Kaminga, but like, shouldn't he want to play? Shouldn't he absolutely kill him that he's not getting run, that he's not out there? Like, doesn't it speak to, you know, a guy who's hyper competitive

and has a lot of self-belief and really wants to contribute to a winning situation over there? And so, yeah, I'm in agreement with that. And I just think a lot of coaches, man, and Steve Kerr, as progressive, as forward-thinking as he's been in his tenure as a Golden State Warriors coach, he's one of those guys, he just hates young guys. He just can't do it. He can't abide by people who haven't grasped the way that he wants the game to run. And young guys don't come into the league with this knowledge, right?

Like especially, you know, when it comes to like the sort of physically overwhelming guys, they didn't build their reputation on being the, cerebral type of players because they didn't have to. Like, why the hell am I learning, I don't know, like, why am I learning a skill that I don't need when I can overwhelm people physically, which is what Kamenga's been doing his whole life. And so he's been slow to learn this Golden State thing, right?

But I think Kerr just needs to be, he needs to be bolder in his embrace of the young guys. And it's funny that this happened again, because if you guys will remember, the first time there was this whole like kerfuffle, and I'm sorry, I'm drawing blank against... Curfuffle, I heard it.

Who they were playing against. It was Moody that he had took out and never put back in. And there was a legitimate uproar. And he came back and he said, you know what? I should have actually put that guy in. That was my bad.

So to watch him do the same thing with Moody and Cominga is kind of frustrating. I understand why fans are a little bit perturbed by it. Well, the thing about current young players is he is playing some young guys now and he has been playing some young guys recently, specifically Brandon Pajemski and Trace Jackson Davis. Like those guys are getting runs. I think what it is more than young players is it's like philosophical discrimination. If you are not a warrior style guy, if there's like a spiritual disconnect between the way we play, and I put that in the biggest possible air quotes, then you don't get run.

Then you don't get the trust. But like Pajemski so clearly fits into the style that the warriors are trying to deploy and have deployed so successfully. Jackson Davis has fit pretty seamlessly into that as a big, which is not an easy thing to do. Kuming has always been an odd fit. But not in a way that they don't need. Sometimes the warriors have really benefited from the one or two guys who aren't just running around in circles, like trying to do the same kinds of split-cut stuff. Like they need a little bit of variety and what they do.

And I think Kuminga has been healthy for them in that way. As long as you are shaped and look like, one of the players that he's already had success with, then you're out of it. Honestly, I started to think about, Kerr is often compared to Pop as is someone that he learned under, but I was like,

this is looking a little Phil Jackson-y, in which, like, I'm so rigidly adhering to what I believe in, and I'm not going to shake off of it. Now, he hasn't got to the point where he's starting to, like,

critique the posteriors of certain players. We haven't gotten to that level of things. The posteriors? Yeah. Call him people fat. No, no, no. Phil loved big butts. Oh, I thought you're talking about Steve.

I was like, I missed a Steve Kerr press conference. I mean, Kerr might as well. I don't know how he gets down, but like that was definitely a Jackson thing. I will say to his credit, he did course correct against the Pistons. He did play Kaminga a season high 36 minutes. So he's learning from his mistakes, I guess. But they also struggled in that game wise. So it's not like things are getting better.

as a result to some of these changes also. Yeah, I mean, they've struggled and the huge parts of their rotation are gone. Like, you can't overstate the importance of not having Draymond, not having Gary Payton the second, and not having Chris Paul. Like, these guys were people who, at minimum, playing 22 minutes a game, 23, 25 minutes a game,

three of them, Dremont being a guy who's going to be in the 36-minute range per game for them. Like, these are valuable players to what their identity and how they wanted to play coming into the year. Like, I, you know, I continue to think the injuries are very important to what's happening, as well as, you know, the underachieving of guys like Wiggins. And Clay, these are points that we've hit over and over and over again, right? And, you know, I guess, you know, the point of our show today is, like, something's got to give. What do they do to reverse these trends? Yeah, I wonder how much of it is Kerr, Rob,

versus how much is this just a roster construction issue? And maybe not even just a construction issue, but as a result of some of these aging players like Clay Wiggins underperforming now for what, half a season, like this isn't just a blip with him. This seems consistent to the point where it's like, we would love to trade that guy probably, but you probably can't.

And the big issue in terms of trying to fit these pieces altogether is it seems like Clay and Cominga, for one, can't play, because Clay at this point is a power forward, unfortunately. And on nights where he, like, guards Paul Bancaro pretty well, it's like, oh, I could see it. But on most nights, when you have to jam in other bigs, like a Trace Jackson or a Looney with a comminga, like you can't also add Clay on top of that

because he's just going to get burnt on the perimeter. Yeah, I feel like a lot of the frustrations are because of some of the roster issues, and specifically the guys who, because of their position, or just their synergy on the court, can't really play together. The Golden State would love to be in a world where Cumminga and Wiggins could be on the floor at the same time,

but it hasn't really worked. Those lineups just haven't really worked at all. And not having Draymond, who as a playmaker is so important to tying lineups together, that's really hurt them with some of these groups. And so Steve Kerr every night has to make choices on,

am I playing Wiggins or Kaminga for these important minutes? Am I playing, you know, Clay or Pajemski for these important minutes? Which big do I trust? given a matchup and a certain night and who actually has it rolling? What makes sense? Do I, you know, when Chris Paul was healthy? Do you play him and stuff together and how much? And what are the liabilities of that? There's so many like if then statements with the Warriors

that you end up tying yourself in knots. And that's why I think even when you go into save the Warriors mode as we are trying to do today, there's no clean answers. This is a team that needs to get bigger, that needs to get better, and that needs clarity and its rotation. And you can't get all three of those things at the same time with one fell swoop usually. So, and what Rob's speaking to as well right now, which is like the death knell for any team that calls itself good is that the Warriors can't put lineups together that can both score and guard. Like they don't have any permutations of a lineup that does both adequately. We're not saying of a lineup that reminds people of 2015 again and, you know, the first year

that Steve Kirk came in here and they're running this office that nobody's used to seeing and guarding and like, wow, are people really allowed to just take threes from all the way out there and blah, blah, blah, blah, like, that ain't this anymore, right? And so we're not even saying they need to have overwhelming offensive lineups. It's just sometimes, especially when Steph's not around,

it's like almost impossible to get to even barely competent while also being able to guard the other team. But I think there's trades obviously out. there that would absolutely set them in that direction. Well, there's some bad news on that front, too, which is the closest the warriors have gotten to that solvency on both ends of the court, those lines have had Chris Paul in them with Steph Curry. And if Chris is going to be out for the next four to six weeks, as well, it's reported

because of this broken hand, and we should note, within that four to six weeks is the NBA trade deadline. We may have seen Chris Paul's last game as a warrior already. So Chris Paul out, Gary Payton the third, who kind of gets forgotten. Gary Payton the second, sorry, I was talking about his son. He's out for several weeks. He kind of gets forgotten in the mix there. Moody, three DMPs before this Pistons game in which the crowd had to will him back onto the court.

And then in the midst of all of this, Draymond Green is coming back. It seems like next week he has to ramp up, but he's expected to join the team per all of these various reports on Sunday. day. And I got to say, if there's like a winner to all of this mess, it's Drayman yet again. Because once again, the rest of the team has been so average that you're saying to yourself, Dremont, please save us. I know that you keep causing all of these issues on the court that we have to deal with. But if you could just get our defense back to average, like we'll accept all of that. And I can't imagine they won't do the same exact thing they've done again after again with Drayman because he has such an effect there and because they want to play exactly like him

to the point where they're trying to play Trace Jackson Davis masquerading as a Draymond type. This is what was so goofy about the situation in Denver at the end of that game and the Kuminga blow up, this whole saga that we've seen over the last week or so. Before that, I honestly thought the vibes had been kind of improving for the Warriors during this stretch. It seemed like without Draymond in the lineup, of course they struggle defensively in particular. some of the playmaking and kind of roster construction issues that we've been talking about.

But the energy of the team seemed to be turning. And as some of the younger guys were getting run, it felt like they were kind of getting on their feet. And the fact that Steve Kerr just like could not help but push Cumminga a little bit too far to the point where now this is a capital T thing, now we're back to square one. And as you're saying,

like Draymond has to be the solution to at least some of their problems. Well, Waz, did you see that Clay Thompson clip where he was like pretty emotional and up front about like accepting where he is? Yeah, that was, um, that was one of the cooler things I've seen, honestly, in sports in a long time because Clay Thompson, um, if anything, he's always been a pretty candid person.

I think of sports figures like, say, uh, Russell Wilson, who is like so perfectly, carefully calibrated and calculated in every single public interaction. Oh, my gosh. That he has to the point where I'm just like, yo, this guy's like lying to me every time. speaks. Born in a think tank or something. It's bizarre to listen to him talk. It's weird.

Clay has been the opposite of his whole career, man. His candor in that moment of one, I think it takes somebody who's actually achieved the level of success that he's had, both financially, on the team's success, individually. He's made all-star teams, Olympics, you know, to really have a sober look at his career and be like, man, this has been really special. And the idea that something might not be going perfect at this point, while I'm 34, 35 years old, like, I kind of need to check myself and be like, man, this has been an incredible, right? I thought that was deeply affecting, man. I got the feels watching him speak like that.

You know what I mean? I wish every player in the league understood that level of, you know, the point of playing the game is to win and to enjoy the time while you hear. obviously make money, obviously, you know, get to meet models and do all the other stuff that you do when you're in the NBA. But like, this is the point of it. But again, I think that's a positive thing. It might, like, for Clay to embrace his reality, embrace where his game is, where, again, people need to understand when, you know, hearing Rob and Justin say Clay is effectively a four now, you know, a part of me dies inside because I remember the 2016 Western Conference finals where this dude is guarding Russell Westbrook in his peak

on an island by himself like straight and and killing him shutting him down like this is what we're talking about the most physically gifted point guard in the league is who the warrior sick Clay Thompson on in the biggest moments and he did it by itself this who we're talking about you know and could come out and drop 40 in a quarter right and so you know this is a special, special unique player who's just not physically there anymore. And so, but again, I think it can only be good that he embraces that level of reality. You know what I mean? And so I think that's a positive sign.

I think Draymond will help them improve their play. You know, call me what you want. I find it hard to quit the Warriors, particularly when Steph is still just absurdly good, you know, but it's going to take a lot of things going in the right direction. and everybody on the team, Kerr, you know, Draymond, Clay, freaking Kaminga, everybody rowing in the same direction as well. Not only do I think that that Clay Thompson response and his kind of soliloquy about acceptance and where he is in his career,

not only do I think it was a positive thing was. I think it was maybe the single most positive development in Warriors Land over the last few weeks. That level of acceptance of coming to terms, in particular the way he was talking about being accountable for his energy and the fact that the negativity he was stewing in and the pressure he was putting on himself to make shots and the way that impacted the rest of the team through his struggle,

I basically want to hear Dremont say some version of the same thing. Like that is where these veteran guys on the team are. You have these dueling frustrations. On one end, the Dremons and the clays, who are so clearly bothered by the fact that this team is not reeling off wins the way it used to, that their bodies aren't responding the way they used to, that they're not the players that they were a couple years ago.

And on the other end, maybe the single greatest source of frustration in the entire NBA ecosystem, which is players like Jonathan Cumminga, who have been told, if you do X, Y, and Z, you will get minutes. They do X, Y, and Z, and they don't get minutes. This is what you hear from players all over the place.

It bothers the hell out of them. With extension season looming large. Yes. And folks at home, to know this in so much as people drill financial incentives into the heads of NBA players, the number one rule, that second deal is crucial. Everybody understands that, yes, it's nice. You know, you got picked six or seventh in the draft. You're going to come out of that with, you know, roughly about 20, between 20, 30 mil. That's a beautiful nest egg. Like,

that's great. Where you change the trajectory in the lives of generations of your family is that second deal. And so that anxiety and that stress when you're a third year guy and you still have not cracked a consistency in your existence on this team, of course he's lashing out. Like, of course, it's drilled into everybody's head that the second deal is the deal. Right. And so I completely understand Kaminga where he's coming from, man. 100%. Yeah, and I agree with you was that the second deal, I bet if you look historically,

who you are going from deal one to deal two and what you're making is about as strong an anchor point for your reputation in the league as you're going to find. Unless you're Ben Simmons. Unless you're Ben Simmons. Of course, there are some exceptions to the rule, but I feel like that's where people kind of come to terms

with what they think of you, is going from year three or four into year five or six. Having said all that, want to trade his ass now? It sounds like he might welcome it. I know he's towing the company line these days, talking about how happy he is with the Warriors in spite of everything. But I think the most logical course of action, if Steve Kurt isn't going to play this guy real regular minutes

outside of playing against the Detroit Pistons, it might make the most sense to trade Jonathan Cummega. I think so. It also seems to be a package already set in place where it is the Chris Paul expiring contract plus comminga, which I have to say, if you're a rebuilding team, if you're the Raptor, some of these other teams, the Bulls, for instance,

comming is exactly the type of guy I would be targeting who has shown enough already, but probably just needs more opportunity. But one thing I do want to talk about before we get into actual specific trades is whether or not Clay Thompson has to be in this mix. Because on the one hand, you guys just outline beautifully what he means to the franchise. And as a result, I doubt they're going to get rid of him. But I'm looking at just the bigger picture when saying, yeah, Clay, we could find solutions

where we kind of mask some of his new deficiencies. But that number, $43 million right now is what he was making, that's a huge impediment. And I assume he'll take a pay cut in order to stick around. Maybe they'll give him more years as opposed to higher dollars. But like, Drayman's pay cut was like a million or $2 a year based on his previous salary. Clay's going to have to like cut himself in half. And I'm like, this is kind of the compounding effect that's going to make things more difficult going forward. They're not going to trade him.

Draymond is much closer to an all-star player than Clay Thompson is. Yes, this is true. And I know that's position dependent. I get that. But one guy plays close to an all-star level when he's pretty consistently every night, you know, specifically what he's doing on defense. And another guy just doesn't. Clay's barely starter level shooting guard, which we know is, you know, the going rate is about $26, $27 million a year, right? I don't even know if he's playing at that level.

You know, obviously, I know carmically, emotionally, it makes sense to bring him back at something close to that because of what he's meant traditionally to the franchise. But anything over, man, once you're getting over 20, million for what Clay Thompson provides in 2024, which still feels weird to say. I think that's doing too much. But, you know, it's tough. You watch him give that speech and, like, the idea that the franchise betrayed him after that, although it would be logical, right? Again, we've brought up the likes of Zach Levine on the show a lot.

And to me, if I go to the Bulls and I say, yo, I got a future first. and instead of having $160 million of Zach Levine left for another four years, how about zero? How about nothing? How about clean slate? I'll wipe that off for you right now. That sounds amazing to me for a guy who, let's face it, again, you know, and I've talked to a couple of people that might have an idea about this kind of thing.

It's not just Billy Donovan is over this guy. the dudes in the locker room are over Zach Levine, right? And so I look at something like that. I think that would be logical, although again, I guess the emotional, you know, the familial thing to do when you have a program is to not do that kind of callous, co-calculated move. Yeah, this just doesn't seem like a logical moment as it relates to Clay Thompson because he isn't Zach Levine.

This isn't a guy you just plug and play into the trade machine and wheel and deal all over the place when you think about the long entrenched members that are key to a franchise's history, those guys don't usually get traded. Maybe they end up on other teams by their own choice and Clay might well. Obviously free to sign anywhere he wants. Right, right, right.

Tony Parker becomes a Charlotte Hornet. Like these things happen towards the end of careers, but it's usually not because they got traded out. Yeah. Well, it is kind of that they got told to go away. Wade with the Bulls is probably the prime example of that. And so this is probably why Bob Myers is on an ESPN set, talking about how difficult a choice this is,

rather than actually making the choice because the emotional decision versus the logical is, like, they're actively clashing against each other. I mean, I wouldn't want Clay on my books for like four more years. That seems like the type of contract and decision that's going to make it so much harder for Steph Curry in the long run, even if it makes them feel good about having clay in the immediate. And so, like, who are you guys?

Let's start here. Like, who are you guys targeting first and foremost? Is it Levine? Do you think, like, having his offense and shooting would be advantageous to put around, even if you keep clay, like Steph and Draman? I'm a see Ackham guy. One, because he's got championship pedigree of his own. Two, because when you talk about warrior's philosophy, warriors' religion,

he's of that ilk in the sense of positional versatility. he's played both on and off ball in his career. He's a transition guy. He's a two-way guy. I know we're getting rid of that term, Rob. But he is a guy who's capable of playing defense, both help and individual defense. For the record, wise, two-way guy is fine.

Best two-way guy is not fine. Making the distinction of the ranking of the two-way, yes. Because, again, as we know, you know, it was a great two-way guy, Shea Gilgis Alexander. You know? Right. But, yeah, I'm definitely a pro seahas. I just think the personality and the basketball sort of, again, what religion of basketball he comes from, I think he fits with the Warriors.

This is a guy movement-based stuff. He's going to understand all of that. Cutting, passing. And that guy working off of what Steph Curry. does, going downhill, finishing against a scrambling defense, that's going to be beautiful to watch. And so I just think he's a perfect warrior. And he's an all-star.

Like, that's the difference. Like, you know, it would have been nice to get OG in here to be like, all right, this guy will space decently enough and he will take him and Dremont's going to take our defense to, you know, elite level number two. And we work off of build a unit and a team based off of a. a very defensive identity, almost like an AI and the Sixers in 2001, right? Like almost like that type of thing. That would have been nice to get.

But OG's not an all-star player. He's not. Pascal Seaccom is a bona fide NBA All-Star. And I would love to see him get into the Warriors ecosystem and just cook. He also doesn't give them, I think the key word of your Pascal walkthrough there was, which is downhill. They just don't have anyone who is even wrong. rolling to the rim in the way that Draymond did a couple years ago.

You know, when Drayman's out there, it's handoffs on the perimeter. It's strictly facilitating the action. But they need somebody actually going to the basket. Because when the Warriors are most successful, a lot of times it's been their young guys cutting. And that works, but you can scheme it out. You can take it away. They need someone playing directly off of Steph who can get that kind of downhome momentum. And to Seacom's credit, spray out, make passes and finish.

Like the variety of what he can do there. I think it would be really valuable for them. And he's not a Draymond with the threes. Like wide open practice three, Seacom can make. Like, I just think there's no downside to a Seaccombe warrior situation. Yeah, that would be my question is like, what do you do in the backcourt in that instance? Because let's say you trade Chris Ball and Kaminga as opposed to Clay. Is it still going to be the pods Steph Curry backcourt?

And is that the type of backcourt you could rely on going into the postseason? And so, like, I wonder, Rob, if you're ranking the guys you're targeting, are you putting Pascal one? Or would you put a guy like Levine there because you need a little bit more juice and you're just going to hope that Draymond punches your defense back up to above average? I would much prefer Pascal to Levine for the Warriors specifically. I think Levine makes sense in some other places. And I actually like his game, if not always, his decision making and his habits. But Pascal is more aligned with what they need, not everything they need. and there would still be a lot of questions to answer it.

Look, there's going to be questions up and down the rotation regardless, whether it's which guards are plugging in. Honestly, the fact that Chris Paul is either going to be injured and coming back and we'll have to see what he looks like post-injury or trade it away, I think he's going to have ramifications for a lot of these bench guys, too. Dario Sarich's production is night and day when Chris Paul is on the floor. Pajemski has benefited tremendously from Chris Paul. Trace Jackson-David has benefited from Chris Paul.

like the Warriors need to be prepared for the possibility that if they trade Chris Paul or just by virtue of not having him while he's out, some of these guys could dip. Some of the guys they've been relying on could really dip in how they're contributing to the team. And they're going to have to either augment what they've already got via trade or plug and play some different kinds of players to make all this work again. I also like that as we're scheming this out, we're also forgetting that Andrew Wiggins like practically won them a finals. I'm not even calculating him as part of the closing five here, just because he can't get on the fucking court, but how much easier everything's become

if he could just play the three, then I think like a Levine probably makes more sense, but I agree with you guys. Pascal seems like a really interesting fit. Can I throw a more like an upgrade in terms of experience from the CP in Kaminga positions as opposed to what you guys are describing, which is like a superstar solution?

What about Kaminga and CP3? and I'm going to throw in Charlotte's 20-25 second round pick, which we assume will be in the high 30s, for Dorian Finney Smith and Spencer Dinwiddie. It's not the home run, but you get a defender, like a plug-in-play defender who can shoot in Finney Smith to close with. And then Dinwiddie, who's on expiring,

you can keep him, you don't have to. He basically sucks up the Chris Paul role. Maybe he closes sometimes, but more often than not, he's running the second unit. I like the Dorian-Fini-Smith part of it more than the Dinwiddie part of it. I'm unsure. Yeah.

And it's because of the Kerr, like, ball finds energy, you know, movement, that type of stuff. And to Dinwiddie's credit, I think he's been underrated in his success as a pick and roll, you know, ball dominant operator, right? Like, you know, coming back from all those knee injuries to be effective in the way that he's been for large chunks of his career. I got a lot of love for Denwitty. but I don't know about the fit because like you wonder you and again like I think of previous

I'm always you have to think in terms of other warriors quote unquote prototypes right like Iggy like Livingston I'm like well he could kind of be a livingston on offense but not on defense he can't he's not six foot eight right

like it's one of those things where you wonder how he slots in rotation wise because even when they've played guys who are that size, they've never been prominent members of the rotation. Even a Barbosa, who you could kind of say is a Dinwiddie type.

He wasn't getting big minutes on the team. And Gary Payton, the second, Dinwiddie size plays like a freaking power forward on defense, okay, in the sense that he's guarding one through four. So I don't know. I like Dinwiddie as a player. I always will, but I don't know about the Golden State fit. I just don't want him.

I don't want Spencer Dinwiddie in like the VC capital of the world. The home of the blockchain. I just don't want it personally. I don't have to deal with that. But I like where you're head that, Justin. Dimwitty getting into AI really? Oh no.

Oh no. Moody would come in wearing like just VR goggles one day and you're like, what the fuck, man? Absolutely not. I do want to get the Nets involved, though. I think the Nets are a natural trade target for lots of different teams. I like getting Dorian Finney Smith, to the Warriors.

I think he could plug into the rotation nicely. I've engineered an elaborate three-team deal that I think might be dumb, but I need to run it by you guys. Those are the best kinds. So the Warriors are trading Chris Paul, Moses Moody, Cory Joseph, and Jonathan Cuminga away

to two teams. Wow. We're looping in the Spurs. Of course we are. In return, the Warriors get, this is the ultimate haul for the Warriors. Keldon Johnson, Doreen Finney Smith, Doug McDermott. The Nets are getting Cuminga and some filler.

The Spurs are getting Chris Paul, who honestly might actually materially help their point guard situation in terms of Victor Webinjama's development. That's just a bold-faced fact. Well, shout out to Greg Popovich, who finally started, Trey Jones. This is an important development that needs to be acknowledged in human history. But the spurs are getting Chris Paul, Moses, Moody, and Corey Joseph. I think this is probably insane.

I'm not sure that Kelden Johnson is a very warrior's-y player, but he is, again, a downhill type that they don't necessarily have, like a wrecking ball, battering ram kind of wing, who could help them get to the rim more. And I think what this does ultimately is replace an injured player and two young guys that Steve Kerr does not really want to play or seem to trust all that much with three veteran guys who he might actually play and rely on.

So this is the LeBron. final cabs year. Let's settle all family business sort of trade. Yes. Let's just get some guys in here. Let's shuffle it up going into the trade deadline and see what we can do Jordan Clarkson. That's kind of what we're doing right now. Nick fans, super into the idea

of Jordan Clarkson becoming the new IQ, by the way. Just the heads up. Just floating it. I don't hate your trade idea because it's similar to what I was suggesting, where it's just like, let's just upgrade to adults who probably fit a little bit better

who are ready to win now. long term, it probably puts a cap on what you're doing because, like, at the very least, if you hold on to a moody, then you don't accept the full blame that your two-track plan was a complete catastrophe and that, like, you don't have to eat that if you're Joe Lakeup and whatnot. And if anything, you're probably, like, that's the one person you have to satisfy with these deals. But I like the general outline to it. What do you think, well, let's. the only downside I would say to this idea is, and again, obviously, Seacom is like a premium trade chip. But what I'm saying, what I liked about that is it would de-emphasize Steph on offense and moments.

Whereas, like, you know, much as I love during and Finney Smith, he's not doing that, right? Keldon Johnson isn't really doing that. The concept of them coming in and being able to work is that they're going to work, of the individual brilliance of Steph and the space that he creates and their ability to exploit that. But it's going to be because Steph is creating all of this energy for them.

And so, you know, somebody, nobody coming into this situation that, you know, lightens the load of the burden on offense for Steph while also not being like, you know, somebody that takes their defense into the stratosphere, you know, hard for me to get super duper excited about it. I think they should be trying to do one thing.

I mean, one of the two things, either becoming, you know, just one of the best units in the league on defense somehow and, you know, letting Steph and Steph we trust. Or, you know, somebody that could come in and legitimately lighten the load so that when Steph is going supernova, you know, it puts defenses in an incredible bond because the weapons around it are so dangerous, which has always been sort of the Warriors game plan, right? It's like you can't over-commit to Steph. You can't, you know, when Steph and Clay set screen for each other

and guys mess up that switch, it's like, holy moly, I just left Clay Thompson wide open, you know, because two guys ran to Steph Curry. Like, you got to try to be creating those level of advantages. And right now they just cannot do that, you know, while also being mediocre on defense. And so, you know, Finney Smith is a beautiful defender, especially for his position, right? It's hard to find people that straight up guards threes.

It's not that. It's just he's not an all-NBA type of defensive player. He's not the game-changing type of defender. This actually gets at something Waz, I think, has been notable and very confusing about this Warriors team, which is they've actually been really good against top opponents. But they lose a lot of these very competitive. games, whether in crunch time or just like one third quarter run puts them just out

of reach whatever it is. They are in that like neither fish nor foul mode where when you get in games against tough teams, you can get close enough, but you don't have quite enough offense to put yourself over the finish line or quite enough defense for that particular matchup. They feel close in a lot of ways and yet

so, so far away. Yeah. That's why they need to fire Kerr. That's actually the solution. The people are out for blood. They're really out for blood right now. I know. Can I float one more insane trade idea by you guys? Yeah, let's go, Rob. I don't even know you knew how to use the trade machine. I've been wheeling, dealing, you know, I've been reading the manual. We're just,

we're just unpacking all our new Christmas presents right now. And for me, it's been experimentation with the trade machine. In this deal, the Warriors get Kyle Kuzma and Daniel Gafford. I actually really like the idea of them getting one more big, by the way. Something that's kind of hard to do in the trade machine. So I like Gafford for them. The Wizards get, again, Kelton Johnson, our favorite trade machine inclusion at this point. Devante Graham, who's effectively just salary right now,

Jonathan Cuminga and Sandra Mamu Kellechevili. The Spurs are getting Chris Paul and Moses Moody. How do we feel about Kyle Kuzma and Daniel Gafford as the Chris Paul Jonathan Cuminga Moody return? Is that enough? Wait, so what are the Wizards getting? The Wizards are giving up Kuzma and Gafford. And in return, they're getting Kelden Johnson.

Jonathan Cumminga, and I would assume you would probably have to include some picks to make something like this work. Interesting. I mean, also Sandro and Devante Graham, but they're not exactly notable as NBA players, per se, right now. You all know I'm a big Kuzma guy, and I think he's actually a warrior's fit in philosophy. His ability to guard both fours and threes, I think is very valuable. And let's be real, he hasn't had to flash it much.

in Washington, but I think Kuzma has shown that when he's in a winning situation, he's a winning type of player. Incredible off-ball guy when it comes to cutting, he'll crash the boards, obviously can make an open three-pointer. He'll exploit the right kind of mismatch. Now, let's not get it twisted. We don't need this guy, you know, operating on the perimeter, breaking guys down on the defense.

But the right kind of mismatch he can exploit. And yeah, I love him in transition as a. Finisher. I think he's an incredible warrior, to be honest. They should be trying to target somebody like that. And the difference between him and Finney Smith is size. He's bigger than Finney Smith is. So that makes him a more valuable defender in his ability to move his feet against threes and just be big and stout enough when they need him to play against fours too. He feels like the midpoint between Zach Levine and Pascal Seacum, where he's like a three-four type, but he still has that kind of

fuck you, warriors. I'm going to take this shot from half court for some reason. So, yeah, I could see the fit there. But I would say Pascal probably of the ones you came out of the time. You know, that always works in your favor when it comes to Warriors acquisitions. Very light skin friendly team.

All right. Let's flip to the Lakers now, who I feel unlike the Warriors, their issues are pretty clear cut. And I think LeBron summed them up nicely when he said, after losing that Grizzlies game, we just suck right now. 3 and 10 after the in-season tournament, Darwin Ham,

trying a new starting lineup every goddamn night, basically telling the fan base to not worry about every game, which is a weird thing to do for one of the most passionate fan bases in sports as we're all trying to get more people invested in the day-to-day of the NBA. I'm sure Adam Silver was very happy about that one. Am I missing anything, Waz? Is there something more here than like they just don't have a good offense right now? I think the offense is down because, yeah, this was never going to be some offensive juggernaut.

But I think the defense is not smothering and clobbering people because everybody knows there's a trade looming. Like, I truly believe that. I get it. These guys are professionals and we pay them to be bloodless in certain ways where it's like you pack your shit and you leave Los Angeles and you go live in fucking Cleveland if that's what, you know, happens to your contract. But they're human beings. And I think the reason why the effort and the focus has waxed and waned is because they know a deal is imminent and nobody knows and nobody feels safe and because they

shouldn't. Because outside of the quote unquote big three, LeBron, A.D. And yes, Austin Reeves, it feels like everybody's on the table, you know, to be moved. And so I'm not surprised that it hasn't felt. you know, completely seamless and perfect, especially after the December 15th, when everybody knows that's like the official start of trade season. They're talking to their agent every single day.

People in their family have ESPN Plus. They got the ringer. They can pull this stuff up on the Internet. They see the rumors. They follow Shams. They follow Wodge. They know what the hell is going on. They can read Jake Fisher.

Every single person in their light. has access to this stuff. You know what I mean? So I truly believe that's what's ailing the Lakers right now. It's this cloud that sort of is hovering over them that changes our foot. Waz just naming media outlets is the new, do it in the regular season, do it in the playoffs, do it again, do it in the championship. They can read Kevin Pelton's trade grades, you know? We can all read them.

They got access to this stuff. Do it on ESPN. do it on Netflix. Can we talk about the quote unquote big three for a second as it relates to the Lakers because... Wow, already. Already just taking shots at her guy. I'm not taking

any shots. Here's what I have noticed. We were all very perplexed as to why Austin Reeves was not in the starting lineup. It's good to see that Darvinham has rectified that although the Lakers did not win these two games since Reeves has been back in the starting lineup. Here is my concern about

your Los Angeles Lakers. Overall this season, LeBron, A.D. and Reeves on the floor together, minus four points per 100 possessions. That is a losing proposition with your three best players on the floor. And the new starting lineup with Reddish and Prince rounding out that group has been even worse. What's been most concerning about that is that when the big three has been on the floor,

the Lakers have been garbage on defense. So you can understand why Darvin Ham is saying, okay, maybe Reeves should come off the bench so we can stagger some of these lineups. You can understand how he got to the place where he was throwing Jared Vanderbilt and Cam Reddish in there to try to shore up the defense of the starting group. But if your defense is going to be that bad

with their three best players on the floor, maybe you need to start considering other options. Maybe you need to start looking at if Reeves is going to be this kind of defensive liability, which I would say he is a defensive liability, do we need to have a more balanced player in that? spot as our third best player. It is funny that they have all of these defensive options, but they don't have one goddamn

wing defender that they can count on. Vanderbilt does that. He just can't. No one guards him. Right. I guess the better way to say is that the trade-off that comes with putting the very good defensive players is that your offense is craters, because you have to have a reddish, you have to have prints out there.

It's just like it doesn't really fit in the ways that it should. and so I'm trying to make like different kind of trades for them and ultimately I come back to the same thing you're outlining Rob which is like would it not be better to trade Reeves and whatever sort of setup we have to get a 3 and D guy even if we're like reaching for a Zach Levine or someone else to do that on top of what we might do in the back court. Yeah well I would like to note too Tori and Prince

I'm not sure is answering any problems to them offensively or defensively frankly I don't really know what he gives them other than sometimes he hits some shots, but materially, he does. He's not improving their offense though, which is kind of the problem. He's not guarded like an elite shooter.

So I think when I think about the Lakers, I'm thinking about who are the guys who are actually going to get guarded. Who can they bring in that's going to get defensive respect or be able to break down things and take some of the lift off of LeBron and AD offensively?

Those are hard players to get with the assets that the Lakers have to trade. And it's why Austin Reeves is almost by necessity in these conversations because you're not, you're just not getting anywhere in terms of quality talent acquisition if you're not sending Reeves out in one of these deals. Yeah, I don't believe that Austin Reeves should be untouchable. I mean, I don't see, I don't understand how a guy you just re-signed for $15 million a year, whatever it was, could somehow also be untouchable. Like, it just doesn't, that doesn't jive for me. He's not on a rookie deal.

So, like, a guy who's that cheap, the idea that he's untouchable makes no sense to me. You wonder how much of that is posturing. You wonder, because a lot of times the Lakers do, except in the case of Alex Caruso, fall in love with their young guys. But, again, I think they should be trying to make moves that will supercharge some part of their unit. Like, obviously, Caruso's been rumored for a while now to bring him back, which again, begs the question as to why you ever let the guy go. I know we've been doing this for, like, three years now, but still gets on my nerves that it happened. I do think having a Caruso type who becomes your head of the snake, if you will, in tandem with AD.

Like, people forget, but, like, Dennis Schrooter was guarding the hell out of people last year. Like, it's just a fact. Gabe Vincent, who is a nice defensive player, hasn't played a single, you know, game this year, basically, for the Lakers. And so, yeah, Cam Reddish had his moment where he was doing a nice enough job on defense, but he's clearly not that, right? Or you can't ask him to just be, like, the sole defensive stopper, you know, that you have in a given lineup, right? And so, you know, I think that's what they should be trying to do. get the defense back in the top five. It's the same as the Warriors.

Try to get your defense back in the top five. AD has played every single freaking game this year. He leads, I'm pretty sure he leads the league in minutes. AD does. And so, like, the idea that you, the guys on this roster, you can't construct an elite defensive unit around what AD's doing. I find that to be ridiculous. And so, you know, again, some of that I truly do think it's effort-driven.

But, you know, some of it is the personnel when it comes to Austin Reeves and how he's been exploited in a lot of these matchups. The effort part is what makes this so hard to untangle because, as you mentioned, there's this stuff looming in the air about there could be a potential trade that's affecting guys, I think, pretty clearly. There's the way offense affects defense and vice versa, right? It's like it's much harder to defend if teams are running against you more,

if they're not taking the ball out of the basket because you can't score, that's always going to be a more difficult proposition. This is why, like, I get what Darvinham was saying when he was, talking about how we shouldn't live and die with every game. But nobody is living and dying with every game at this point. We're looking at almost a half of a season and a half of a season in which the Lakers could not score. Where they're 11th place in the Western Conference,

where they're 11th place in the Western Point Differential, they're a mess. They're a total disaster and they need a lot of work. And it's hard to quite put your finger on. If we improve the defense, is that going to be enough? If we improve the offense, could the defense tick up with it? just by the virtue of like the vibes and the chemistry and the fit being around the team. And it's also one area in which him mixing and matching so many different starting fives has probably

hurt them a little bit. Like no group of players has been able to get its feet under it, has been able to actually create a foundation and build and build habits and chemistry because everyone's been jerked around on the rotation so much. I do wonder if Gabe Vincent is able to come back and provide for them what they thought they were getting when they signed him in the off season, which is at the very very, very least being able to handle a good amount of ball handlers. Does that solve some of the issues we're talking about?

And that makes it maybe easier to slide in a Zach Levine for the offense. And then we'll just take our chances. We got AD in the backline. We got Vincent to guard, point guards, and maybe some twos and whatnot. And then we'll just figure it out, right? Reeves is better in playoff situations. As we saw in the in-season tournament, I'm joking, but like I'm kind of not too. So he's good in the sense that in the half-court, he creates a vans.

Whether that's getting to the line, whether that's like he's a dead eye when he's like a, his set shot is money, right? Like he's very valuable half-court offense commodity, which is to be respected. But, you know, in the regular season when we're doing this topsy-turvy, you know, pace, pace, pace type of thing, it becomes de-emphasized. So here's my solution. I'm not, I mean, we could talk about Levine if you guys want. But I'm looking toward the Hawks, a team that's increasingly becoming, at least publicly, a possible seller here. They've talked about keeping everyone except for Jalen Johnson and Trey Young. We'll see about that.

But at the very least, I do think their pieces fit a lot of the needs for certain teams that might be in the market for this. And so I have two tiers to my options here. One is the tired option, which is Bogdan for just DeAngelo Russell's contract and either their first round pick in the future or Jalen Hood-Skofino, who is, a recent first round pick. It really comes down to how they evaluated him going into the draft. Sheffino, it should be noted. Come on, Justin. We've been around this carousel so many times. Listen, no one's going to need to know that. You an ambassador, Rob Mahoney over here. If we're going to ship him out of town, let's at least get his name right. That's where I'm at.

As long as the Hawks's G-League announcer knows how to pronounce it, we're fine here. So that would be sort of a lower cost. You don't have to give up Reeves potentially, which I assume the Bulls would want in a Levine deal. You're just getting the juice that Bogdan provides, putting him into that secondary slot, the shooting guard slot, and then just open for the best.

That's the tired trade. The wired trade is Bogdan and D'Andre Hunter for Reeves, Russell's contract, Houds, Chafino. Sheffino, yeah, Hood, if you know. And the first. And now on the one hand,

none of us like DeAndre Hunter. He has never been the player that I think the chalk outline would suggest. But at the very least, he is a credible 3&D option on a team that has none. He is ultimately, he's immediately the best version

of that player on there. And maybe LeBron give some more option, like open shots on the perimeter. And he just ups his value. J.R. Smith, 5.0, because we've gone through nine of these types of players with LeBron. Is that more interesting than just the Bogdandre? DeAndre Hunter is the most Lakers forward I can imagine.

He's so at home with the Torian princes and the Jared Vanderbilt and the Cam Redishes. Like he makes sense in that way. I get what you're saying. I think if I'm giving up Reeves, I want more than that. And I say this is someone who really likes Bogdan Bogdanovich. I think he would be a great fit there. But I would prefer if you can talk the Hawks into taking DeAngelo Russell on a first round pick for Bogdan Bogdanovich,

hang up the phone, sign the paperwork, let's do, like, get that done. I don't see why Atlanta would necessarily sign up for that. I think Bogdanovic is going to have some suitors, and he may be able to get a pick in return, but I think he can get a pick and a player who's more useful to Atlanta than DeAngelo Russell would be, is the problem.

Yeah, and I think with the Lakers, it feels like the kind of player they're trying to get is a Murray type. is a Dejante Murray type. A clutch client? Is that the type? Clutch client, obviously, that, I mean, that has to matter. And the problem with that, and I think there's a lot of upside to the idea of Dejante Murray coming in there.

And, you know, and we just talked about the Warriors. And so we can make the Warriors comparison. Andrew Wiggins comes into Golden State. Like, before he got there, all they ever... did in Minnesota was be like, could you just please, like, use your athleticism for basketball purposes? Like, be a rebounder, crash to boards, be a menacing transition. When they put six, four guys on you, back their little asses into the paint, get to the foul line, you know, make your wide open three points. It's like, could you be the kind of player that does that? He never did it

in Minnesota, and it seemed like he never cared to. Then all of a sudden in 2022, he's doing everything thing I just mentioned to you, right? But also, while having never showed it. Like, we knew he had the potential to, but never showed it. The thing about Dejante Murray is that there was a point where he was an all-world defensive player. That shit hasn't existed for, like, three strong years now. But he's been that before in his life, in the NBA, right?

And so the version of Dejante Murray, who was just a better. Dennis Schrooter last year on the Lakers is very valuable. Like, he's, you know, he becomes one of the best point guard defenders in the NBA, top three point guard defenders, and has the ability to operate and pick a roll, can make a wide open jump shot, can get some, create some space and make nice midrangers. Like, that's a incredible player. However, that dude has not played defense in three years. Like, I repeat, he had that.

reputation in San Antonio, particularly when he started out, there was this idea that Popp just loves these rangy, whatever, defensive-minded guys who do nothing on offense. He turned himself into a real offensive threat, but in the process, completely forgot how to guard people. And so, again, if you believe in LeBron's ability to, you know, get this guy in the room and be like, yo, Dejante, this is how, you know, you become immortal, right? You win a championship with the Lakers. You make yourself into this special kind of defender, you, me, and AD, we take this thing from there. If you trust his ability to, you know, essentially J.R. Smithify, him, Murray, or even a Zach Levine,

then God bless. I'm just saying these dudes have not shown this shit in way too long. And sometimes, to be honest, the idea of trying to tap back into something you used to have, sometimes when that giddy up is gone, it's just gone. And you are never that level of defender again. Like once you cross that... You're talking about us?

Unfortunately so. We are... We'll never pod like we did back in 2021, y'all. Our live show in Indianapolis is us being put out to pasture. They're just going to leave us there. We are not welcome back for further shows. That's going to be it for us. But Dejante Murray and many players like him,

like once you become a star, once you cross that threshold, sometimes they just see themselves as that kind of player from then on forward. And what I worry about with, Murray as a Laker is he and Trey Young have not been able to figure it out in terms of their balance. Again, that's another

duo where their minutes together on the floor are a losing proposition. They are losing those minutes. I know Murray's been hitting threes this year. I know there's been maybe some progress in terms of that partnership and maybe his ability to work with another dominant on-ball player. But the reality of playing with the Lakers is that

the ball's going to be with LeBron a lot of the times. And it should be with LeBron a lot of the times. You have to be fluid as a guard to make that work. And Murray he's always been kind of a particular flavor in that way where he is someone who thrives with the ball in his hands, at least in terms of putting up his own numbers, but he wants to get into the mid-range.

He doesn't always drive all the way to the rim in ways you would like. And clearly, he's still figuring out how to be a secondary star. Yeah, that's actually been my response as last year's trade deadline deals have been dredged up and people have pointed out

that the Lakers could have just kept Mike Conley as opposed to getting DeAngelo Russell. Now, Conley would have been better. I think that's objectively true. Conley is better than DeAngelo Russell in every context that's ever existed in the history of basketball. But I understand at the very least the logic in reaching for Russell and whatever dynamic style he brings to an offense, as opposed to Conley, who's more of a caretaker, which is, as you're outlining, Rob, that's LeBron's job. And so it would be duplicative in that regard.

And so I worry about that. Where I kind of disagree with you guys is that LeBron don't really want to do it all day, every day. He wants to do it in the biggest possessions against the Warriors in game six. Definitely going to want to do it. But, like, on a day-to-day, if Dejante Murray's on this team, he's going to be the point guard. LeBron's going to be like, yo, no, you go out and orchestrate this. I'm going to come in and do what I do in spurts. But, like, we've seen it.

Like, that's why Austin Reeves and DeAngelo, Russell, you know, when he starts and it gets on my nerves or whatever. And Dennis Schrooter last year, they all got their turns. Yeah. Yeah, but Westbrook just, you know. At the very least, that was what they were hoping he would do. He would carry the non-Lebron men's. And Westbrook, for whatever reason, I don't know, decided he didn't want to guard anybody either.

And again, that's the thing. If Murray's not going to come here and guard the shit out of people, this is a waste of everybody's time. If he does, I think this can work. But he has to, he has to take it upon himself to be like, all right, I've already got my extension. People already know I'm an all-star kind of quasi-calibre player. Let me come out and become winner guy. You know, let me come out and become Derek White guy. He wishes. I just, I just don't know. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I want to be winner guy, though. How do we become winner guys? What do we need to do around here?

You know, just team me up for Ben Simmons jokes. That's true. Stay out of Waus's way is the answer. I'm just going to go spot up in the corner for a little bit. Just play defense and get your ass up the court. Yeah. All right. All right.

But if we're power ranking like the options here, Robert, where is Murray there? Are you putting Levine ahead of them? Is there anybody else we're missing in this calculus? I would prefer Levine to Murray for the Lakers. I think honestly, the Lakers are among the better Zach Levine fits. Yeah. Who I would like even better, but I cannot seem to make work in a way that I like is Donovan Mitchell. Ooh.

You know, a lot of the same appeal is Zach Levine, but I think he's just too good for what the Lakers have to offer. And he doesn't have the baggage that Levine does that would drive the trade market down. So, like, I tried every permutation possible to make Donovan Mitchell a Laker, and I just can't seem to swing it. So I think he just might be out of their price range. Can I try here? This is like, this is the most hairbrain shit out there. I do wonder if you look back at LeBron's co-pilots. He obviously is most successful when he has the number two to drive things when he can't or does not want to, right?

Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, et cetera, et cetera. they've been beckoning for one for a little while here. AD has always been probably a better personality fit with LeBron. He seems to cover for him in ways that LeBron appreciates, and he obviously aspires to be LeBron's friend. Let's just be honest with you. He seems like to relish the opportunity to learn under him in ways that Kyrie, for instance, does not.

One of the thing we just haven't really talked about, Anthony Davis has been awesome. He's been great. He's been incredible this season. And as we're triangulating all the Lakers problems, He ain't one of them, generally speaking. But... No, no.

Your boy. Oh, no. Has he at the peak of his value right now, and maybe you are skirting any potential injury issues that are coming down the line and getting LeBron, potentially, that dynamic backcourt partner, while giving up a D in the process.

The problem there is it's actually tough to... Well, here's the other thing. LeBron is basically a four or five, at this point. And I wonder if you could lean into a version where it's small ball where LeBron is the new, dare I say,

wise, Ben Simmons. LeBron is not a full-time five. He's not a full-time five and he's barely a full-time four. And then you get rid of AD and whoever you bring in as a guard. Like, we know, you know, the type of person,

like a Luca or a Shea or even a Devin Booker or, you know, Steph Kurt. Like these, extremely dynamic guards. We know you're not getting somebody of that level so that Jackson Hayes could play the five for you full time. In theory.

Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt plays the four and provides some rim protection. And then here's the issue. But he doesn't really. Like Vanderbilt's more of a chase guards and wings type than a rim protection type. Well, that's why you would need a three four. I don't think he's completely incapable of that. But like, I don't know.

know. Walk us through the vision, though, Justin. We would have to be locked solid three to two, which I don't think you can get to. For instance, like, the only one that makes

sense is Mitchell, but it's just like the calves, that's their problem, is that they don't have the wings to support this. And so, like, you would have to be, like, importing Jared Allen

in addition to Donovan Mitchell, and I'm not sure the downgrade from AD to Allen is worth the upgrade from Mitchell from whatever else we're talking about, Bogdan, Levine, etc.

It's actually pretty easy. to get like a score first guard on this market. It's just going to probably cost you Reeves. So AD was the best player. He was the best Laker in the playoffs last year because LeBron was physically limited and they got to the conference finals. Like, I don't think there's a version of a team

that gets to the conference finals with Donovan Mitchell being the best player. That's why I just don't believe in this. I just think AD at his best. best allows for you to have a diverse assortment of guys on your team to get to elite level. Donvin Mitchell, it has to be so hyper-specific to him and what his shortcomings are that I'm just like, just offhand I can't do. Like, in the series against the Warriors, like, I just couldn't see Donovan Mitchell being

the best play on the floor in a Warrior series last year, right? or even against the freaking Memphis Grizzlies. Like, I don't know, man. I don't disagree with you. So much better than him. But does the LeBron AD front court complicate the spacing in a way that their offense is always going to have a ceiling where it's going to be LeBron save us at that point? I think if the other guys can shoot, it's not that big a problem. They just don't have enough guys who can shoot and defend at the same time as we've been circling.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I don't think this is the solution. And if anything, AD has a weird trade restriction where it's like, I think he could only get traded like a day or two before the deadline. I just want to throw it out there for discussion. I don't mind the discussion. I mean, we're going places. We're trading Anthony Davis to Cleveland.

We're like things are happening on this podcast today. Anything else from missing here, firing Darwin Ham, obviously. Honestly, now that I'm thinking about that deal, like, and Justin talks about how close. they are as homies like, I can't talk to you ever again, LeBron, you got me traded from Los Angeles to Cleveland. I'm sorry. Like, we're not talking about. I'm not coming to your

birthday party again. Like, no. No, no, no. Waz is at war with every city that is not on the coast in America. See, your rampage continues. 80 is so subservient that he would show up to the birthday party first. He would still be at the birthday party and he would be there while there

setting up. This is the residual New Orleans hate, Rob, that is just pouring out of this man still. Extremely rude way to talk about one of the best players in the NBA this season. But if we want to scale down the trade, non-star division trades that the Lakers could potentially make, could I interest you in trading Austin Reeves, Rui Hachamura, and Jalen Hood-Shafino for Cam Johnson. What do we think about that. A real deal shooter with the size for you to still play a little bit bigger doesn't fix all your problems, but maybe it fixes enough of your problems offensively to at least get you somewhere closer to balanced. No? I don't see it. I think Cam Johnson is probably, I think some of his defense is a bit overstated, honestly. Oh, it's not overstated. It's not good.

generally. So it's like he's not any better for real on defense than Rui is. And I don't think he's an overall better offensive player than Austin Reeves is. So it's like, what did he be upgrade by bringing this guy here? You know, and the movement shooting stuff is amazing. I don't know that LeBron's really ever played with a guy like that, except for like Kyle Corver, but he was cooked already. I don't know.

I like Cam Johnson. You can't justify trading Austin Reeves to the Laker fan base for Cam Johnson. That's a tough, tough sale. Like, if you bring Zach Levine

and, like, people are going to be like, look, I loved Austin, but they're going to say Zach Levine is like this 30 point per game potential type of, you know, entity, right? Cam Johnson,

you get rid of the savior in L.A. like the guy who every time he dribbled the ball behind his back got ooze and Oz from the lake of crowd in Vegas like yeah I don't know man yeah

uh waz I have a trade you're gonna like even less then if that's how you feel about camp Johnson would you trade this more or less the same trade package altered slightly Austin Reeves Rue Hachamura Gabe Vincent this time for Terry Rozier and PJ Washington does that do anything

for you a little more guard help And in PJ Washington, a big who, again, allows you to be big, good defender. You're playing a little bit smaller just by height, but he's an actual rim protector who's in kind of a four's body and can shoot. I like that deal way more because I'm getting ball handling in return. You know, like, and scary Terry can space. Like, this guy can shoot it. And so-

Another guy's had a really good season, to be honest. Yeah, I'm a fan of Terry, Terry Rozier. I think he would be a phenomenal secondary ball handler. I think he's, you know, he's more than qualified for that position. And PJ, again, next to LeBron and AD, he still theoretically shoots it. I'm still, like, waiting for that component of it because that's like, you know, it's like, oh, he's like a vertical spacer and he shoots the three. And I'm just like, ah, I'd like to see that happen on a consistent basis at some point here.

But I'm way more into that deal than I am for Cam Johnson. Rizier definitely has some J.R. Smith in them. I'll say that. Spiritual successor. I mean, he's like J.R. meets Schroeder meets some, maybe like the Isaiah Thomas that LeBron play. Like some other archetype that we're at least familiar with on a LeBron team. Meets Dion Waiters.

A little Dion Waders. There's no doubt. There's no doubt. I don't hate it. I wouldn't give up Reeves in that construction. But that's kind of where they are. It's like if you're not giving up Reeves, you're not getting good players. and if you are giving up Reeves,

understandably, the Lakers are reaching for more star types, bigger names, more production, more explosiveness. And the kinds of stars you're going to get for an Austin Reeves-centric trade package right now are going to come with some baggage, some backage, some Zach Levine-style baggage, I think.

Some flaws, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. All right, how about we wrap it there? As much as it pains me to stop Rob's run on the trade machine, Reminder that we are still selling tickets for the live show. All-Star Saturday, 2 p.m. at the high-fi in Indianapolis, hi-fi-indy.com. Get your tickets so you can see us. Do this sort of magic in person.

Thank you to Jack Sanders on production. We'll be back on Wednesday. We'll see that. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit Fandul. com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee,

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