The Ringer NBA Show - NBA Tentatively Approves 2020-21 Season Plan. Plus: Draft Rumors With Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann | The Mismatch

Episode Date: November 6, 2020

Verno and KOC get into all the intricacies of Thursday’s tentative deal between the NBA and NBPA to start the 2020-21 season during the week of Christmas (1:00). Then, Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann join KOC to get into the draft rumors floating around and some of their favorite draft prospects (30:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guests: Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode of the Ringer NBA show, Chris Vernon and I discussed the news that the NBA has tentatively agreed to come back on December 22nd. We get into all the challenges the league is going to be facing from a personnel perspective, from a draft perspective, and from just playing through a pandemic. And then Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Chuggs joined me and we talk about some of the latest trade rumors, draft rumors, and one of our favorite top prospects, Patrick Williams. And one other quick thing, about 15 minutes in, my podcast audio dropped out so we had to use the Zoom audio. Apologies for that. But I'll be back to the normal, great sounding audio thanks to our producer Sasha right after that. All that next on the mismatch. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show.

I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Friday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O. Obama, Kevin O. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kevin O. Conflict. Kevin O.

Kevin O. Camry. Kevin O. Contrarian. Kevin. Verno, it's been such a whirlwind of a week. The votes have been counted. It looks like the NBA's back.

December 22nd. Oh, those votes. Okay, good. Those votes, yes. Seemingly, we can't get the other votes counted this week. And, all right, we got the news last night, late last night, that the players union and the NBA have come to an agreement to have our next NBA basketball season begin on December. 22nd. We've talked about this a lot over the course of the last couple of weeks, and it is pretty clear that while at the beginning, the Players Association clearly wanted a longer break,

especially for the teams that just got done playing in mid-October, and there was hope on that side that it could get started in the middle of January. The financial realities of this were very severe. $500 million to like $1 billion losses just from missing Christmas and 10 additional games. And you're already talking about these guys putting money into escrow anyway. And I, you know, look, you need to take a step back and realize this last season, we were, we were praising it a lot and it was very worthy of praise about them being able to pull off that season, about them being able to go to a bubble, about them being able to go to Orlando, about them being able to crown a champion, when it looked like, especially in March, this may be the season that doesn't have an

ending to it. And they were able to pull it off in the middle of a pandemic and all praises do for that to be able to happen. But what can't, what you can't lose sight of is they lost $1.5 billion. dollars. You know, they were able to pull off that season and all praises do. And it is a billion, billion with a B. Yeah. And it's no fault. And they're not to blame for losing the $1.5 billion.

But they lost $1.5 billion. I think that, you know, there's some, you gather some sense that like, oh, okay, this thing was able to end. It all was great. We were all very praiseworthy of it. But that didn't make them money. You know what I mean? It just let them keep

the shell of their financial package that they had already and be able to satiate the broadcast partners both by playing eight more games in the bubble for the local TV and then being able to play out that playoffs in the bubble. But they got their ass kick financially and when you sit down with a pen and paper

and you say, okay, we already got our ass kick. we'll get our ass kicked again if we do it this way. How much money do we want to lose just to be able to have a little more time before we start the season? And the players who share in that revenue, I think unsurprisingly said, yeah, like, let's just go ahead and start. It is unsurprising. I talked to a number of agents of players this week and nearly all of them said, yeah, this seems like a formality on, you know, whenever they make that vote, which happened last night at 10 p.m. Eastern with the representatives from each team with Michelle Roberts and, you know, the head of the PA on that call. And it seems to be, you know, the far majority of the league unsurprisingly decided

to approve the tentative plan. Let's make that clear. It's a tentative plan on the call last sign according to Shams, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook were two of the loudest voices in saying, this is tentative. Health and safety needs to come first in terms of ironing out that plan. I mean, we'll see, man. We see some of the struggles that the NFL and MLB had earlier in their seasons. And the NFL still has it right now. They just have Thursday night football between the Packers and the 49ers with both teams having positive tests for COVID-19.

And they're powering through it with the NBA. It's a different league. It's not played outside. It doesn't have 50 plus players on each roster. It's, you know, 15 guys with more travel with playing. indoors. There are some issues from a health and safety standpoint that do need to be ironed out. But ultimately, the NBA, I'm sure they learned a lot of lessons from the bubble that they could try to apply to a wider scale with everybody traveling. And they're going to do what they can

to reduce travel. But ultimately, no different than like you and I and anybody listening to this, it's going to come down to the players and the coaches and anybody who works on those staffs. And how much they stick to, you know, being safe, not going out, you know, without a mask onto a crowded place. And I'm sure we are going to have positive tests throughout the season, assuming it does start on December 22nd and I'd be shocked if it didn't. There will be challenges ahead that they did not have once everybody was in the bubble down at Disney World.

Well, really hard because it's a really young league. And it gets younger every single year. and I am not using this as I'm not looking down upon, you know, these kids. But because I was that age too. You got to remember a lot of these guys, especially the ones that come into the league, they're 18, 19, 20, 21, you know, and you feel invincible. And it's pretty clear that the, I'm not, not totally broad brush, but young people are obviously much less concerned about.

coronavirus and following correct practices. Go to any big city and you can find bars that are filled. The ones that have opened, these bars are filled. You go to college campuses, there's parties everywhere. And you're seeing it happen more with college football. Like there's tons of headlines in college football all the time about this. What I worry about the most is the two things you brought up, Kev, which is can basketball be pulled off in a non-bubble environment where you do have people being exposed to all

manner of different people that they were not when we pulled this off in the bubble. And can you, while playing a sport indoors, virtually passing around a germ? You know what I mean? I mean, a basketball, it's not like, I mean, there's, look, there's 11 guys on a football field, four or five touch it. Touch the ball, you know what I mean? Like, whereas in basketball, um, these guys, like everybody and there's just all kind of you're so close to each other guarding each other

they're indoors who knows how many fans they try to put in this stuff it's being it's being indoors that peers it's an old virus that would be more of the concern and you know maybe maybe maybe like in that large of a space it doesn't matter as much i have no idea i can't imagine that it's been studied you know how much coronavirus passes in a large arena well here's the big problem the big problem is the locker room You've been an NBA locker rooms. NBA locker rooms, even the nicest ones. They're small.

They're small. Especially when you put 15 guys in there that are 6, 5 to 7 foot tall. And then you've got all the trainers and you've got the guys going around picking up the laundry and you got, I mean, they get packed out. I remember my first time like time in the Celtics locker room and they've made their locker room larger since this first time back in 2013. but I remember walking in there thinking my first thought was first of all like this is awesome this is cool how thankful am I the second thought was wow this is really small I always imagine it to be way bigger when I saw the clips on TV and all that is tiny the trick is this it's visitors locker rooms and the visitors locker rooms are even smaller in every single arena oh my good

if you saw the visitors locker room that I've walked in so many different times and how you can't walk in there without running into somebody. I mean, they're small. It's not built for comfort. You know what I mean? One thing I will say is I would be willing to bet protocols will be different. This time around, like you won't necessarily see some of the basketball attendance

walking through picking up towels or, or, you know, taking laundry or whatever it might be. You won't see that as much. I would assume that they are going to minimize any chance in any content. between, you know, workers, you know, at the games and the players and coaches, you know, as they would call like the, the tier one prospects, people that they had at Disney, the tier one players, coaches, and whoever, that would be my guess. You will see protocols like that put in place to minimize the chance, but still, to your point,

that's right. The locker rooms are small. And that's where the chance for transmission amongst a team where you could have an outbreak is dangerous. but ultimately, man, I think the NBA, every step of the way here, ever since March 11th, when Gobert tested positive and they shut it down, every step of the way, they have done the right thing, and they have done a great job at managing this. And I think even with the draft process following the bubble, they did a good job playing that slowly

and getting protocols in place for that to make it as safe as possible for teams to visit a prospect for prospects to work out for the NBA combine that they had going to their neutral, the nearest location that they could do it. To me, the NBA, every step of the way has done a remarkable job throughout this entire pandemic. And even though there are challenges ahead, I do trust Silver and the league office to get this as right as they possibly can. There will be challenges and there will be positive tests.

It's inevitable. But I do trust them to get it right. And I think that's based on that track record. I can tell you something that I think most people do not know because for those that don't know, my studio is down at FedEx Forum. And so I walk into the same place, the administration building for the show I do locally. My studio is on top of FedEx Forum. So I have to walk in there.

They had as of yesterday, and this is, I'd imagine, going to be going out all over the league. When I walked into the door, Kevin, there is a big video screen next to the door and you see your face in the video screen. That video screen, A, detects who it is, B, detects if I have a mask on, C, takes my temperature on the spot. What? Some big brother's stuff over here. Listen, how about this? The door will not open. even if I scan my key card.

What? Yes. Yes. Whoa. I'm serious. And I've got to imagine that's going on. That's how serious, like when you say the NBA is ahead of the game, I mean. Oh, boy.

I mean, that is at the arena. You can't even get in there unless you have a face mask. And it says, no lie, I did it yesterday for the first time. And so I'm standing there. And it said, because I just got out of my first. car. And it says to me, it goes, no face mask detected. No face mask detected. And I put my mask on. I was outdoors. So I didn't have my mask on. I put my mask on like I was about to walk in the building, right? Just like I normally would. Then I walk up to it and it has like this little arrow and it points

to my forehead and it says temperature in normal range. And it popped up 97.8 on the screen. I'm like, what is this a future? This is crazy. And so all I'm saying is, imagine, imagine like you're going to target. Can you imagine? They got this outside.

Oh, boy. I mean, we're not shocked me one bit. I'll tell you that. The thing worked like, the thing worked unbelievably. I was like, this is unbelievable.

Oh my God. But to this, this blows my mind to hear that. Wow. I give that as an example. Wow. as to tell you how, A, how fast technology works and how unbelievable something like that is. But B, how seriously you're taking it because you, like, I work.

That's where my office is. You can't get in there. You can't get in there unless you pass all of these things, which are not even, they don't even take a human to do it. There used to be a guy that sat out there and would take your temperature. The guy is now, he's not there anymore. It's the video screen. Wow. He got replaced by a computer.

It's unbelievable. Andrew Yang was right. I know. So wild. The computers are coming for our jobs. So here's the other thing. A couple of things that went through my mind. Number one on this whole return to play December 22nd because this is, you know, this

is going to be fast, fast. Number one, are they, is the NBA going to mandate or are they going to follow like whatever state says? on allowing people at these games. Are there going to be 5,000 people in like, say, Orlando or Miami or somewhere like that? And then none when you play at the Warriors or at the Lakers or at the Lakers or something. I really don't know. That's one thing that came to mind.

The second thing that came to mind is, how are we doing this schedule? We're talking about a reduction in travel. You've lost 10 games off the schedule. are you playing your conference and maybe even your division more because of the slightly shortened schedule? Are you only playing teams from the other conference once? I mean, you just do the quick math, right? Like, are you playing? You can't play every team twice and then play your own conference, you know, three and four

times. And so you are going to have to figure that out. And I actually think that that's one of those things that. I think the NBA, I know it does not, hopefully the NBA continues to be cyclical, and so it's not a huge demerit if you don't, if your division is much better. But I would like for there to be more importance put on conference and division. Because I do think the NBA over time needs to create rivalries. We don't really have those in the NBA. And when they have been promoting stars for the last 30 to 40 years rather than teams,

I think something in order to promote teams that would be helpful would be creating real rivalries. Like, oh, those two teams play tonight, right? And regardless of who's on those teams, those cities, those teams have rivalries. And so maybe it could take a step towards that. But who knows? I mean, they're wanting to reduce travel. So do you play more home games than you do road games? What we're going to see is, you know, they want to reduce travel by 25%.

I reported this a couple weeks back that, I believe someone else did too, that they want to have MLB-style series. You know, like you might, if you have the, let's say the Lakers and Sons, maybe they play three times in a row. And I'm not exactly sure how it's going to work in terms of the travel aspect. Maybe the Lakers would have to face the Sons three times in Phoenix. I don't know. I mean, that's to be determined. We'll find out more details over the coming. weeks. But the fact is, it does sound like they want to reduce travel by doing that. And maybe

that means also, I believe this has been reported before too, but releasing the schedule in halves. You could release something ahead of time, you know, for like pre-all star break. And then maybe you have, maybe you have some cancellations and whatnot. And that will determine how you structure the schedule in the second half. So we'll see what happens here. It's going to be complicated. It's complicated for the league to put this together with health and safety. It's complicated for the schedule makers with booking arenas. That's tough too, even though it's a lot of open dates right now because there's not like concerts you're competing against, but there's still, it's hockey. There's still, you know, other things that are going to be

happening as we, you know, slowly do have more and more events in the coming year. But it's going to be, it's going to be tough, but it does sound like, I'll tell you what, I don't think the NBA would be pushing for a December 22nd start if they didn't think they could pull it off by then. It's going to be tough, but I don't think they would be doing it. The work's been, the work has been happening not since, you know, the Lakers beat the heat in the finals. The work has been, had started long before that.

And it happened while they were, once they were in Disney, once they were there, that's when the work started. And so they did get this done ahead of time. The thing I wonder about is the whole East West thing. Like does Philly now go to play one game in Miami and then travel and play? Because, right, within conferences, what you're saying is much easier, right? Where I'm going to go. Or are there just certain teams that you play?

That's what Major League Baseball did, right? Where you ended up having like the Cardinals play against the Royals. They played like that. They played a division on the other side. So in that case, they played the American League Central. And those were the games that they played against. But they didn't play other. teams, right? And they went there for a three game series and then it was reciprocated.

I wonder, how do you do that when you've got teams in the different conferences that are playing one-offs against each other? And because that's when travel gets, that's what travel gets tough. It's easy to go to Phoenix and play three games, right? It's the going to Phoenix and playing one game and then going to, you know, L.A. and playing one game and then going to wherever I'm playing one game. I'd imagine, I'd tell you this, regarding what you're saying, boy, there's going to be a lot of teams that play Lakers, clippers, back to back, and that is a bitch. Right?

Oh, yeah, no doubt. Because they're going to pack those games together. In all likelihood, yeah. No doubt. Right? You might, I mean, it's going to be the type of thing where I would bet this is going to be ever evolving because we are going to get positive tests. It's inevitable.

And so the league needs to remain flexible and how they structure the schedule. and how they reschedule games, perhaps into the second half of the season. It's not going to be easy, man. We're going to be having a lot of stories about, you know, so-and-so tested positive. You know, X amount of players and staff members need to isolate out for the next four or five days, whatever it might be until, until like the NFL has, they have like two negative tests. But the fact is, man, is this is not going to be easy. And it would not surprise me if at some point after December 22nd, like,

happen in MLB, like what happened in the NFL, we're going to be talking about, like, can they actually do this? Is this going to work? That's going to happen. I think you're right. I know you're right. I mean, that is exactly what's going to happen. And there will be all the, there will be all the think pieces, should we be doing this?

Our first podcast in January, like next January, that's probably around the timing of when we're going to be talking about that. Like, should they be doing this? Is this going to happen? I mean, it's inevitable. And just like the MLB and just like the NFL, they're going to be. they're going to try to power through it. And hopefully they're able to do it

and nobody's able to, hopefully everybody's going to be okay. But it seems like, like I said, the NBA didn't start working on this in October. The work started on this probably before June and July when things really started at Disney. So the league did and the league probably knew, like, hey, we need to have a contingency plan

if everything can go through. that being said, front offices are scrambling. Oh, yeah, they are. Because they didn't know. Oh, yeah. Because, Kevin, it seems like the general sentiment around the league when you read the stories from these different markets is how the hell are we going to pull this off? While the NBA may have been prepared for this, front offices, there was no real way to prepare.

And the summers are incredibly crazy anyway. And you know what it's like during free agency? and you are having to put together, like anything you want to do for your roster, you want to be able to have these guys at worst in training camp. Well, what if I tell you, training camp starts in three weeks?

You've got to revamp. You've got to add your draft picks, make your trades, and add your free agents, and or resign your free agents, and you've got to do it within, honestly, I know that they talk behind the scenes. I know there's a ton of tamas. hampering. There's still more than ever this year.

Yeah, but there's still one week to get that stuff done. And what you can't do is no, let's just say, let's use it for instance, okay? Let's say Fred Van Fleet, Toronto says, let's see what somebody offers him. And then the Knicks come out and they say, we'll give you a 25 million a year, whatever it is. Right. I'm just making up a thing, a scenario, right? There still takes time for you to decide. No, I'm just saying it still takes time for you to decide whether or not you're going to resign him. You want to find out if you're going to be able to get another free agent. Like, this stuff takes time.

Like, I know that everybody says, hey, they can just get it done. But like with free agency, sometimes you have to wait around to find out like, okay, if our guy walks, you know, are we going to have a backup plan? Are we going to have a small forward if our guy gets signed by somebody else? Are we going to be able to make the trade that we want to make? Are we drafting with that in mind? It's just so hard. And it usually is like way drawn out.

And now it is so short. That amount of time is so short that this is the greatest challenge. You better hope that your front office is smart. Because navigating this, there are going to be a lot of dummies that get take advantage of if you run a team. The teams with continuity. more of the teams they're going to be in the best position for this weird fast-based off season. Like your Grizzlies, they have everybody back, you know, a team like the Nets, you know, there's a lot of teams that have continuity.

But any front office ahead changeover, it's going to be a challenge. And, you know, I think they can make it work. I mean, like you're against the deadline here. And when you're at against a deadline, things naturally happen quicker. But I do think about like draft prospects, November 18th, you get drafted to somewhere. you didn't expect to get drafted. And then you basically have one week, a week and a half to find a place in your new city right before training camp starts in late November, early December.

And then a couple of weeks later, you're playing in the NBA, no preseason or limited preseason. Basically for the players, you know, draft picks or players who sign on a new team, they get to move their entire life. And because of the timing for everything, some of those people in the league might have kids and they might not be able to move their families. Like there's a lot of challenges that players are going to be facing.

I had not thought about this. And here's something that should be able to take. There's two things that this may fix. Number one, the draft night trade where you got to put on the hat of the stupid team that didn't even take you, and you've been traded. I hate that. Can they please change that?

Well, this would be the year, right? Please do it. Let's say cut the bullshit. Let's just go ahead. Like, you're on the T-Wolfs, right? No kidding. Like, let's say the wolves trade the number one pick to Charlotte. And Charlotte takes Wiseman.

Can we like have a hornetat for Wiseman, whatever he's zooming from? Can we please get him on? Let's not mess around here. The other one is, and this one, one is very interesting is the free agency thing because there is this moratorium on here that the NBA, you know, enforces and they'll find teams or whatever. But like, Shams and Woj report where every free agent has signed like at 1201, like the big ones, like a lot of them, we end up knowing.

But these teams can't even announce that these guys are on their team for like maybe a week. That will be different this year, I think. Hopefully we get rid of that madness, too. There's two things that this actually might fix. The whole, I give you a hat, even though that's not the team you're going to play for on draft night. And we just act like that trade didn't, you know, happen. So we expedite these trades to be able to reflect what actually is happening. And then on the free agency thing, we go ahead and like lift that or at least shorten it to where you can say, okay, this guy,

signed with this team. And that's that. You know what I mean? Or he's when he's expected to. Hopefully we get, you know, pen to paper a little bit quicker, you know, this time around. Because as you said,

there's a lot of things. Think about, you think about a, when you brought that up, you know what instance came to my mind? The friggin's deal. It took like a month. You remember the, he got drafted number one by Cleveland.

Because the timing of the sign and trade for his salary to kick in, like all that. That will probably change, I would expect. But who knows, man? Like, there's a lot of weird rules. And I'm not sure how much of it they're able to change or able. I don't know. But I would expect stuff like that to change.

And we'll find out more of those details in the coming weeks. But I know those discussions are happening for ways to adapt the CBA to these weird circumstances that everybody's facing now. A shorter moratorium, maybe not a 30-day rule for, you know, a draft pick who, signs his deal, being eligible to be traded. You might see stuff like that changed for this weird season, this weird next year that the league is about to have starting in November 18th and just 12 days. And those are things that have to happen because of a shorter timeline, but that I would

hope would remain. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's one of those things. It's kind of like the play in tournament. You got to have the right hat on. Get to wear the right hat. Sometimes you have no idea how many.

Memphis Grizzly Kevin Love rookie cards I have. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And O.J. Mayo T. Wolves. That was the night. That was the night, right? But if you get one of their rookies, they're wearing the wrong head.

They're wearing the wrong head. All the most valuable rookie cards, the ones typically where they're wearing the proper jersey, not like a college photo. Of course. I thought so. I was just making sure. Okay.

Just fact checking here. Of course they are. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to learn. before I make my investments for the 2020 draft class. Okay. So I can retire on Tyrol Terry. You're going to retire on Tyrell Terry.

All right. Well, the first thing we do have coming up that we do know the schedule for is the NBA draft. And on the other side, special thing we're doing on the mismatch. Kevin is going to be joined by Jonathan Charks and Jay Kyle Mann. And they are going to be talking about the draft, including trade rumors. going around about the NBA draft and some prospects. We'll do that after these words.

And now we bring on the ringers, Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks. How are you guys doing today? Superb. Good. Thanks for having us on. I love it. I love it.

So we got a lot of stuff going on today. Zach Lowe had a big report yesterday that he dropped on ESPN with a bunch of rumors, some trade stuff, some draft stuff. We're going to get to that and start off with the Atlanta Hawks. Zach Lowe reported again yesterday that there's talks, that they're trying to trade out or down.

He mentioned the possibility of using the sixth pick in a deal with the Pelicans for Drew Holiday. And, you know, with Atlanta, they're a young team, but I've heard that Travis Schlank, their GM and Lloyd Pierce, their coach have immense pressure from ownership to make the playoffs next season. And if they don't, both of them, probably the entire staff are probably gone.

And whether that's fair or not with the team being as young as that is, this is the hand that they've been dead. And so with that in mind, Kyle, whether it's Drew Holiday or somebody else, who should the Hawks be trying to get here? And what should they be trying to do to meet the expectations of ownership over this next year? I mean, hastiness seems frankly kind of ridiculous, in my opinion, because this is a cake that's going to need some time to bake. I mean, like, in terms of all your personnel decisions, you're going to need to heavily, heavily, heavily supplement trade defensively, give him, the tools that can sort of maximize his natural gifts. I mean, he's one of the best, like,

live dribble creators on the planet right now. One of the smartest young players we've got. Yeah, I don't really, frankly, in terms, and also in terms of just kind of the scenario that we've been in, I think they've had some major injuries, too, haven't they in the past couple years, that have sort of derailed their continuity? Am I misremembering that?

No, I mean, the fact is, is regardless, injuries or not, it's a young team. And Schlank got that job. in 2017, Pierce got it in 2018. And look, I understand you want to make the playoffs. I get it.

And you're probably pissed off that you lost Luca, that you traded him away. But you got Trey. I think it's ludicrous that they're on this short of a leash here when you do have a guy like Trey. And by the way,

it takes time here, man. The East is good. The East has a lot of good teams in it. And there's no guarantee for, you know, a team like Orlando in the back end of the playoffs. Or for Atlanta,

some of these younger teams that want to get in to get in it. It seems to me ownership here, if that's true, which I believe it to be the case, is making a mistake here because Atlanta has the guy that's hardest to find, and that's a star in Trey Young. And I do think Drew Holiday is somebody that makes sense next to him, but it's a shame that it could come at the cost of taking the long view and maybe building a more sustainable winter considering Holiday is 30 years old. I mean, let this be a lesson to you young GMs out there

just because an owner says they have patience. I mean, these are very, very rich people. If we don't know anything the last couple of years, rich people do not like waiting. And they might tell you you have three or four years, but when it really gets down to it, after two, they're over it, right? They're just tired of losing.

And with the Hawks, I was thinking about it, the Hawks always trade in the draft it feels like, right? The last two years, there's been no more active team moving up the board and down the board. So even without the ownership mandate, the odds are you would think they're going to move around just by their history.

So I've heard that the sweetener in the deal that they're trying to put in there is Kevin Herder, another young guy who's been impressive. So let's say theoretically, you know, just for the sake of discussion, that there's a deal like six and Herder for 13 in Holiday. Just something along those lines.

I would love Herder in New Orleans. That's really interesting. Oh, yeah. It's Herder in New Orleans is awesome. It would be really nice. And for Atlanta Holiday, would be helpful. I mean, he adds the defensive presence next to Trey Young, which you need. With Trey being as limited, he is on the defensive end of the floor. He can add the secondary

ball handling. I can push Trey a little bit off ball more often. Maybe you see Trey start to relocate. I'd love to see Trey actually relocate off ball. That would be nice. But let's say with the 13th picker, even if they stay at six, it doesn't matter. With Atlanta, who are some of the guys in this draft that they should be thinking about and targeting that could help long term, but also help them in the short term when you're building around trai and trying to maximize who he is as a player. No, I mean, you just need to. My question is, is like, how difficult of a window are they trying to thread here? Like, you know, Steph is sort of the comparison that people use a lot as sort of a guy that can go on and off ball, really high level ball skills. The efficiency hasn't quite

gotten to where I would like with, with tray yet. But like, What kind of pieces is it going to take for him to become a guy that can be the focal point of like a championship level team? Because defensively, I think he's even more up against it than Steph Curry was. So you put yourself in a situation where you got to put guys that are like really, really flexible. And that's kind of something that I've hammered on a lot in this draft is like the teams that were really good in the playoffs like Miami, like Boston, like Toronto. teams with a lot of, well, specifically in the East, teams that they're going to have to go through. These are teams that have, like, flexibility in their personnel that they can, like, within a playoff series, not just have, like, a great, you know, woohoo regular season, make adjustments

on the fly, smart players. Guys like that, I mean, like, I don't think that they're going to be there, but, like, a coro, you know, vassel, those are the types of really, but they have some of that, you know, they've been drafting with that in mind. With Hunter and Reddish, even Herder to an extent. even though he's not as great on the defensive end, but that's sort of the type of player that they should be targeting. Are there a number of guys in this year's draft charts

that do fit that versatile, smart profile that Kyle's talking about? I mean, I always thought the guy that made most sense here was Halliburton because he gives you a ball mover, a defender, who can play on and off the ball, good leader, he's unselfish, all that stuff. And then the guy, if you kind of followed the way the Hawks were building team the last two years, the guy that kind of makes a ton of sense is Patrick Williams. He's the Florida State Forward, who's been rising in mocks for like months now. He's kind of got your 3-D athletic kind of build.

But he's a younger player. So like, if the Hawks are trying to win now, I don't know if they want to draft one of the youngest players in this year's draft. Now go back to what you guys are talking about. Like, when you're building slow, all of a sudden you try to build fast, like, that's a very tricky transition to make. I think for Atlanta, you know, if they were to Atlanta, another first round pick. It'd probably be someone like

a Sadiq Bay or Aaron Naismith from Vanderbilt and Villanova for Sadiq Bay. And that's if either of those guys are on the board. I've heard Phoenix and San Antonio like the both of them and they're at 10 and 11 in the lottery and there's no guarantee they would take them. But, you know, if

Atlanta does trade down to 13, those guys might not be on the board. I'm glad you brought up Patrick Williams' Charks because he is somebody who you mentioned last week in passing as, you know, the guy that you feel really good about. You get a feature coming out about him where you detail his life he said i believe right that's coming out yeah sometime next week early next week yeah early next week i look forward to that because the more and more i talk to

people about patrick williams and the more and more that i reevaluate him and watch his film again and again he's rising on my board he seems to be rising on a lot of people's boards i've mentioned before that detroit really likes him at seven i'm not totally convinced will actually be here but there were probably people right now listening to this podcast. They're pulling out, they're Googling Patrick William stats, and they're looking at his numbers, and they're seeing 9.2 points per game, 32% from three, only 22.5 minutes, and he came off the bench for all 29 games. And they're asking, what did he show with this small sample for him to be, you know,

a top 10 pick? Why didn't he play more? Why were the limited chances? I mean, what was it about him and what is it about projecting him forward charge? that makes him such an appealing prospect. Well, there's a couple things going on. The first is you have to look at the context of his college team. So when people think about Florida State,

they don't think about like, oh, it's a North Carolina or a Duke. But in the last three or four years, they become one of the premier NBA factories. I think they've had six guys drafted in last three. So he comes to Florida State. They finish here in the top five. They're the ACC champions.

So they don't need a big role for their freshman. He's coming off the bench behind multiple NBA prospects. Devin Vassell will be a top 10 pick probably. And they have Trent Forrest would be a second round pick. So he's a bench guy for an excellent college team. And he just shows these flashes of ability. So he's 6-8-2-30. So he has this big, massive frame. And every NBA team wants these big massive wings who can move, move and shoot a little bit. So like, all right, right there he's got this like basic skill set. And then it's like, okay, where could he be in a couple of years because he's so young? And as I've kind of done

reporting on this. I think the reason NBA teams are so excited about him beyond like, okay, he's kind of a piece of clay you can mold, but the intangibles of like, we believe this guy will maximize his potential because, A, he's a very intelligent player. He's a very humble player. He's very hardworking, high character, that kind of high basketball IQ. Those things you think, okay, if he's going to check those boxes and we're drafting guy, because his tools are top five, top 10 tools, even though his production was not. And one thing teams have been telling me is like, because of this long layoff, right, these guys have had six, seven months off between games, this is a rare opportunity for

a hardworking kid to get a lot better. Because when you're a college player, you're going season, then the draft, then the season, then the season, then summer league, there's no time off. These guys have had seven months off to work on their games. And the guys who are hard workers, they might surprise people how much have added their games in the last seven months is the idea. Yeah, he kind of, he's an interesting player to me because sharks, tell me if you agree with this in terms of, I was watching his, sort of his gate and his lower body and just kind of the way he moves on the floor. He has sort of that like raw, I don't, you remember the way Jalen Brown ran when he was like in high school and like his year at Cal? He kind of had this like energy that just needed some. I was kind of talking about that with Poku too. He just kind of, he's figuring out where to apply his athleticism and how. to, you know, something I liked a lot about him is he spends a lot of time pressuring at the

point of attack, which is not something that you would expect for somebody of his build. But he kind of, he can move. Yeah. And he, you know, he was like correcting like mistakes and like closing on people who beat him, you know, has really kind of gets off his feet well for how big he is. And yeah, I agree with you. He shows in his interviews too, sort of a hunger. for growth. You don't hear a lot of freshmen come in and like eagerly talk about like, I want to get better on the defensive event.

I watched an interview with him last night with Jeff Goodman and with the stadium. And it's, it's funny. Like he seems like somebody who very humble, very kind. He sort of seems like somebody who loves the work. He mentioned it was very authentic the way it came off. It didn't seem like sometimes when a prospect says, oh, I love the work. It's like, oh, your agent is telling you to say this. But he's like, I love being able to go.

in the gym and feel myself and see myself improve over time. And just the way he said it and the way he kind of talked about, the way he's seen himself improve is like, oh, yeah, this is somebody who is putting in the work and it's like, wow, I'm getting better all the time. This is crazy. It was just sort of, that was my impression talking. Do you get that sense as well, Charks? Yeah, so it's funny Kyle mentioned about how, like, young guys wanted to improve on defense.

I remember the Florida State coach is what they told me. So before the season, a lot of college coaches do this. They bring the guy into their office. They say, what do you want your role to be? Here's where our team is. And a lot of times, so he's a top recruit, right? So most top recruits come in and say, well, I want the ball. I want my shots.

Where are my minutes coming from? And Williams tells them, he's like, well, I really want to get better on defense. And they were shocked. The coach told me, says, I've been doing this for 25 years. I've never heard an elite prospect tell me I want to get better on defense. What are you even talking about? And he's like, yes, I want to get better on defense. that's my role in the NBA.

Because that's your thing too is sometimes when you draft a guy, they're not used to a smaller role to the next level. They struggle getting moved into a smaller role. He's already proven he'll take a smaller role. And when you're like drafting a guy not to be a star right away, they've got to buy into being a guy who spots up. They don't buy into that. It makes them much harder to succeed.

He's unselfish. Yeah, coming in early, as a guy who's played their whole life as a star, I'm not meaning like me, which for me, that's true, though. you were our top draft prospect when we signed you Kyle it's true yeah but I mean it's you you just see guys develop bad habits so in terms of like that that's that's really encouraging to me and in terms of I I've seen a lot of versatility like just sort of like fledgling you know signs of versatility in him that like you know he he carried a little bit you saw him a little bit in like picking roles offensively I would say he was more looking for

for his like dribble jumper going right most of the time when I was watching him, but it looks great. And he actually has more touch, I feel like on his dribble jumper, like in the mid range than he does on his catch and shoot. Looks more comfortable as well, like just looking at his form. It's more fluid off the dribble than it is off the catch.

Okay, so I've got some numbers for you guys. So like this is also like at Florida State, mostly he was playing three and deep, but in limited possessions, he was in the 90th percentile of shooting out of the pick and roll. of the entire country and then 70th shooting off the dribble This is a very small role

But this is what NBA scouts are looking for They're watching this game They might see him make one or two plays You know like those plays are NBA plays If we project him forward two or three years As he grows that part of his game Because he's just so big That's the other thing too

He's an 18 year old He just turned 19 who's 68, 2.30 Like he's gonna keep getting bigger And every... He's about the size of a Morris twin Yeah and that's the thing is like you've got to have these big bodied wings. Like most 3ND guys are like, you know, 200 pounds.

And the best teams in the NBA have these 245 pound tanks like Jimmy Butler, right? Like Williams obviously is not going to have the guard Jamie Butler right away, but he has the physical tools to do it. And when you have the physical tools to guard Jimmy Butler and you can shoot off the dribble, instantly NBA teams are interested right away. Like, okay. This is something here right now. Yeah. And you're looking, you know, you're looking for players that have like those flexible mobile frames that can also carry weight, you know, like a Jalen Brown.

Like a, like he fits that bill too. And you were talking about in the pick and roll. I think it's encouraging because he's functioned well in what I make up terminology all the time just for me and drive some of my friends nuts. But like what I just call first level pick and roll decisions, which are just like single coverage, basic read. He seems to handle those well. Like he's had situations where he gets blitzed, he dumps it to the roller, he can hit that shot if it's there, he can hit the corner usually, I mean, and he's a big body. So he can kind of get in that area around the nail and is his decision making gets better. I think that's an area that he can offer even more

value. Kyle, you did a big video this past week, breaking down Danny Avdia, who's a lottery prospect and has played professionally for years now. And everybody should watch that. Go check it out on the Ringer's YouTube page. I'm wondering, how do you feel like Patrick, Williams compares to Denny Avdia. And would you prefer Williams to Denny if you're drafting in the top 10? I think it depends on what you're after. I mean, they provide different things. I think that Patrick's, I think in terms of like defensive IQ, I think that Denny's had the reps.

He's actually an underrated team defender. It's something I kind of argue in the video. But in terms of like what they're going to be capable of defensively, you're not going to see, you're not going to see Denny pressuring at the point of attack in the NBA anytime soon. I think he's likely going to have to fit into a strong team scheme. But I also think that Denny's on another level as like a playmaker and a creator. I think that he's just, he's got the chops that Patrick could grow into. But I think he's got some of those natural tools that differed them in a way, in my opinion.

You mentioned earlier, Charks, in passing, that if New Orleans were to trade up to six, that you like Patrick Williams for them there. Assuming that he, let's say he's not there or maybe he's not the target for them. Lamello ball is somebody there's been a rumor this past week or so could maybe slip in the draft out of the top three. He's only interviewed from what I've heard with the Knicks and the Warriors. His dad, LaVar Ball mentioned that he wants him to go to Detroit or New York.

There's all the stuff about there how he's not doing well in these interviews. He's not doing well, you know, with what people are. hearing from his workouts. There are some people out there who think that's just noise and his teams trying to create this perception, you know, when they inevitably pass on him that they don't, that they don't want the pushback against it. I don't know what's real there, but I do know it is real that he could fall. If he's there at six for New Orleans, does Lamello make sense of somebody when you're

trying to build around Zion Williamson? Would you like that fit? Does that work for them? Can you imagine both ball brothers? I want to watch it, like selfishly. I would love to watch Chino Hills 2.0. I don't know. Go get a Congu too.

Go get a Congu and have the Cheongue. Yeah, right? I would love to watch it, but I would just worry about your shooting, right? Because you already got Lanzo to Ingram or decent shooters. I would, it's an interesting fit. I mean, my mind is, like, that's blowing my mind, thinking I'm getting both ball brothers together.

I can't get my head around that. That would be crazy. At the least it'd be fun. It would be so much fun. Would it be great? But would be great for basketball, Kyle? Oh, it would for sure. But the one thing that I was wanting to ask you guys about that just my antennas went up was,

can you imagine RJ and Lamello together? That would be interesting. I mean, Lamello, man. I mean, he's, he's an odd case. Like, he's really, I don't want to like throw away some of my bits that I have coming up for a Lamello video. But let me give us a preview, Kyle. Come on.

Give us something. Tease us, Kyle. Come on. Get the listeners to be viewers. I got, I got Charks' attention, Charks' attention with this. Oh, yeah, this is good.

His development follows, like, I'm not saying they're the same player, but, like, in terms of, like, their environments, like, scientifically, it follows a pretty famous basketball player whose nickname is Pistol. That's all I'm going to say.

Wow. Right? Wow. That's all just. I'm Barry in Shake already. Okay, I want to watch the video now. I need an early cut, Kyle, right after we get through that. Well, talk to my wife about that way.

So with Lamello, he is somebody who, I mean, when you talk to people around the league, you talk to people in media, there's a love, there's a love him or hate him relationship that a lot of people seem to have with him. And I think with the mellow, when it comes to some of the personality stuff, like I've heard, you know, immaturity. I've heard teams worry if he can grow into a leader. I don't know if he's gotten enough credit for the fact that he went to live. Lithuania when he was 15, 16 years old and he still got better. He went to Australia as a teenager and still got better. And to me, you know, despite everything, regardless of what somebody wants to say about his dad or the, you know, the Facebook show or whatever else, I come away as, you know, looking at that as like, this is somebody teams and people looked at as like maybe a second rounder and has continually improved and changes shot selection, you know, he's gotten tall. he's improving all across the board.

That to me is impressive. That to me is a positive sign for his potential future success. And yet there is still that conversation about, oh, you know, how mature is he? Will he adapt? I'm almost less worried about that and more so just what situation does he go into that can help shape him. And just flat out the development of his jumper. Because like you mentioned, sharks, if he were to go to a team like New Orleans, is he good enough of a shooter that you know?

need next to a guy like Zion Williamson. And I do think that fit there, though. I mean, you look in that top 10, there's not a lot of teams that I look at and I'm like, I love the fit. See, what about Chicago? Chicago? I like to fit there too. And yet there hasn't been a lot of, you know, there hasn't been anything connecting him

to Chicago yet. It seems like they're more interested in some of the wings that are in there. I've heard they like Avdia a lot. I mean, maybe they should be into Patrick Williams. Oh, which, by the way, I've heard that. I've heard someone mentioned that to me the other day. I don't know if that's true, but I heard they were later interested in Williams.

Why would that disqualify them from being interested in Lamello? I mean, he doesn't really, he's six, he's almost six, seven, basically. I mean, he's the same size as these guys. I think a big question for Lamello was just going to be, how do you, I think that people don't contextualize his shooting correctly because you really have to kind of lean in and look at what he did. And I was, I went through pretty painstakingly and watched all of his three point attempts from this.

past season. There were 90 if you throw out the heaves. And in the second half of the season, you know, he did this kind of counterbalance thing with his feet. I'm doing it with my fingers now, where he would kick his feet out. And it was a habit that he picked up, my theory is, from playing in these wild contexts like Chino Hills and like in Lithuania, where he was this little shrimp playing with these bigger guys, and he would be on the move. And I think he literally had to do it to get the ball there. So he would just kind of like kick his legs up. Well, he kept doing it all the way to just recently. And if you watch early

in his NBA L games, he was still doing it. And then like halfway point of the season, he started, I think he started to move into this more set three point attempt thing.

It kind of looks like the Angelo Russell, the way he shoots, he gets on his tiptoes. Oh, yeah, and he went 10 for 27 on those. Interesting. I don't know.

It's just kind of like how much do you want to read into, and I think he's a smart kid. Like, I don't think he's clueless. If you watch like his defensive awareness when he got into the NBA context. It was like, he knew like, okay, playing around is over. It's time

for me to be a pro. And worth worth pointing out, too, his last game in Australia was November 30th last year. He's had an entire year off without game. So like, and I think people think he's a worker at the very least. So that's a lot of time to change his game. That's a full year off.

Do you think Minnesota could regret not just taking him despite some of the fit issues at number one? It's possible, but I'm more of an Edwards guy than you guys are. So I think, to me, if it took Edwards, okay. So I've heard that Minnesota at number 17, they have the two first round draft picks that they like Theo Maladon

French point guard at the 17th pick. And I don't think that would necessarily mean they're not taking a ball handler at number one or if they trade down to number three. But it's no worthy. It's no worthy though because if you are adding a guy at 17 potentially that does handle the ball for you and adds the secondary presence

next to Russell, could it at least suggests that they could perhaps go a different direction than Edwards or ball at the top of that draft regardless of the slot that they're in? I think it's tough because I was just kind of imagining like Russell Ball and towns playing together. Like you really would like to have, I would like to see Ball become more of like an off ball mover and like catch and shooter sort of like that. And I just like in Ohio State, right? That's what we saw for him. Yeah, you'd like to see some kind of clever, weak side action sort of stuff with Towns because, like, Charks and I've talked about a lot, like Towns is an underrated passer. You know, you'd like to see her

to do that. So that teams can't load up because the shooting is maybe not what you would like. But I've kind of, you were talking about Edwards. I've kind of, I'm getting to the point where I feel like they have to take Edwards. Like, his talent is just, we were talking about this in the top 10 or the 10 questions thing. It's just, I think that he's one of the only people in this draft that has like the offensive skill set to be like an offensive one on like a playoff team. Like he's, he's that level of talent. I kind of think he just have to do it.

There's the guy, KOC's guy, right? KOC isn't he doesn't who they're going to regret passing up on the most. Give us your Hayes to Minnesota pitch. Oh, Hayes. I thought you were going to say Tyrol Terry. Well, he's a Minnesota guy, by the way. He is. Yeah, he is.

Yeah, he is. Yeah. Maybe they should take him to 17 if he's available. which no guarantees. There's some late lottery hype for for Tyrol Terry floating out there as the draft approaches. But Killian Hayes from Minnesota, I wouldn't be shocked if there's a surprise prospect. Maybe it's Hayes, maybe it's Halliburton, maybe it's Patrick Williams, but I want to be shocked if there's a surprise prospect that goes in the top three or top four, top five. And Hayes is one of those guys. We've talked about him, you know, amongst us. I forget if we talked about it on the pod last Friday.

But he has the shot creation ability. He has the passing vision. He has the defensive ability. He plays hard on that end, can defend on the ball, can really defend at the point of attack, a wear off ball. To me, he has a foundation for success with his playmaking ability, with his size at six foot five with a strong frame, and with his defensive ability. For him, like with a lot of these guys, like we talked about it with Lamello, like

is the case for Anthony Edwards. it's really about what level of his jump shot reach. He shot well over 80% from the free throw line and his professional career overseas, has shown touch on floaters, runners, tough layups. I feel good about him being somebody who can generate a shot for you at the end of the clock as he continues to mature. And from Minnesota, you know, I think if they were to trade down from number one, let's say with Charlotte, let's say Charlotte goes up to number one to take Wiseman and let's say

Edwards goes two, and let's say Lamello's not an option for Minnesota at three. Killian Hayes, to me, stands out as somebody that makes sense for what they need around Russell and it checks a lot of the boxes that you were just talking about, Kyle, for what they

need when they try to push this thing forward with that core. I will say it's from Minnesota. I think, for my understanding of it is they feel like they have a lot of assets to improve their team now. Number one pick is not one of those assets. The number one pick is a long-term pick for them.

Like, when you're a small market, you can't use your number one pick for a guy to win now, right? You have to build long-term for a piece like that. So in that sense, I think taking a guy who has to grow slowly makes sense,

but since you are now Hayes' agent and Publis' KOC, where do you want him to go? If you're moving Hayes around, like if you put him on one team, who do you want him to play for? The best fit his career. Where makes sense for him?

I mean, like, I would say Minnesota, just for the reasons we're discussing because he has Carl Anthony Towns, who, by the way, you know, Kat, people talk about his defense and how it's, you know, not all world and it's not what you need. But I think he showed some progress last year. He got better on that end. He wasn't what we thought he would be at Kentucky when everybody talked about him as some, you know, potential all defensive player who maybe he'd be good on offense. It's the inverse. He is an unbelievable offensive presence.

I think people are going to see that and realize that when the wolves start winning again. he can do so much for you. He can shoot threes off the dribble and step back jumpers. I mean, it's ridiculous what his offensive package is. And if you add somebody like Hayes who adds that secondary presence that can unleash some of Russell, the reason why I was excited to see D. Andrew Russell in Golden State was like, finally, we're going to see the Russell that we last saw at Ohio State where he was running off screens and handoffs, cotton, showing all his smarts.

We're going to see that player. I need to see that player in Minnesota. And having a guy like Hayes or Edwards, that can help bring that guy about in Minnesota. And for Hayes, to me, having that infrastructure around him would help limit some of his limitations as now too. He does need to improve his ball handling.

The shooting still needs to make progress over time. But I think there's less pressure on him to do that in an environment. See, my thing with Hayes is this. I think when you've got a young point guard like Hayes, who's such a good playmaker, he needs the rock. And like you talk about his shooting,

his shooting numbers are actually pretty good off the dribble. It's the catch and shoot stuff that kind of needs to be worked on. And he reminds me of Luca in that sense. We're like, yes, in theory, he can be a secondary guy who plays on and off the ball. But I think with a guy like Hayes, if you're going to draft Hayes,

you got to let him do what he's going to do. You got to let him dominate the ball and kind of figure out on the fly. And I could see it being with him kind of like Russell, where if he went up on the bat, a wrong situation, he could end up moving around the NBA because he kind of needs to learn to play with the ball. I'm just not sure if you draft taste to be a secondary guy,

that's going to be the best spot for him. So you think that he's more of like a heavy load, spread pick and roll type player that you kind of, you figure your pieces out around him? See, that's why I think like Detroit makes sense. I think he has to kind of be given that rope right away and then maybe slowly move back. Whereas I think if he comes in somewhere and it has a smaller role,

might struggle. I look at it the opposite way. I want to see him sharing the ball. I mean, I get your point, but to me, I want to see somebody like him who, like, he's got a good handle. He needs to work on his offhand. As a lefty, he needs to work on his right. But I would want to see him not have that demand on him early in his career. I'd like to see him sharing the ball. And because it's important to develop off ball too. I think he's a good cutter. I think he knows how to move off ball. I think those reps are just as important for him as it is for him to get better on the ball. And we'll see where he ends up going with Killian Hayes. Like there's so much fluidity in this year's draft.

We don't know where teams are going to be picking. Like we talked about Atlanta and New Orleans, we don't know where these guys are going to go over the next 12 days or so ahead of the draft. We're going to be finding out a lot of stuff. And we'll be back next Friday to talk about more draft prospects, more trade rumors. So guys, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having us on. That was fun. My pleasure.

Please do me a favor and give us a five star rating. If you're listening on iTunes, follow us if you're listening to the Bringer NBA show on Spotify. And thank you to producer Sasha for producing today's episode. And thank you all for listening. Have a great weekend.