The Ringer NBA Show - Nets Hire Jacque Vaughn Full Time. Plus, Believe or Not.

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by discussing the Nets hiring Jacque Vaughn full time (3:25). Then they discuss whether they believe in some of the good starts and bad starts from various teams around the league (10:03), including the Warriors, Hawks, Timberwolves, and more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Ariel Hawani. One third of the fastest growing show in combat sports. I'm Chuck Mindenholm. And I'm Pt Caryl, and together we are three-pack. Join us on the Spotify Live app after every UFC pay-per-view and become a part of the best community in mixed martial arts. Or if you can't make it, check out the Ringer MMA show podcast exclusively on Spotify. See you then. Love you.

Welcome to GroupShat. I am Justin Verrier, joining me, as always, Big Was. and a guy that I know for a fact was listening to Migos when they first came out, Rob Mahoney. I'm on top of all the new shit, Justin. You know this. That's true. So just so I'm clear about this controversy

that I guess broke out, what, Sunday, Monday, that LeBron said that he had listened to Migos when they first came out on a mixtape. But he said that happened his first season in Miami, which was 2010, but it actually happened in 2011. am I getting the details right there? Is the problem that, or is it the extension of LeBron also claiming he's like first on every new prospect out of the gate, every new thing that's coming down the pipeline? LeBron's got to know about it first.

I guess that's what I'm asking, because it does seem like a minor, like, flub here, but everyone's taking him to task as if he, like, just, like, made up the election results or something. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Even if he got the dates wrong, I feel like LeBron James, the rapping in the sprinter bit that he did for years. I think he's justified his like, all right, I listened to a decent amount of rap. And if you've ever watched those videos, he's getting about 65% of the words wrong. But he's trying. You know, he's trying. And he's promoting artists.

Remember, he famously A&R, allegedly a two chains project. So, like, LeBron has some music bona fides, but it's just hilarious because it's of a piece with a lot of the image making that he does where it's just like, yeah, I'm reading Malcolm X. You know, I'm a film buff and I can't tell you my favorite scene from The Godfather. You know, all of this kind of stuff that he does. Yeah, don't necessarily trust him in a book club, but I would expect him to know a little bit about rap, at least maybe more than us. Yeah, definitely rap. All right. So on today's episode, we are going to do a little schick here. We're going to call this group chats, believe it or not. It's basically real or not real or any version of that fact or fiction. But we don't have to out us out of the gate. At least pretend that it's new. I'd like to be transparent with the audience. So they don't come after us for getting the dates wrong of Migos' mixtape here. So we're going to go through some recent events that are percolating in the NBA post mini election day break. What a little treat there to have a day off. But first we can kind of start with the news that just broke

right before we got on here. The Nets hire Jacques Vaughn full time. It's been about a week since the rumors or reports that Ema Doka would be the choice here, but some reporting for Mark Stein that Joe Sye got a little pushback, believe it or not, over the weekend that that might not be a good deal.

So we could work this into our little stick here, Rob. Believe it or not, the Nets actually made the right choice. What do you think? I'm shocked, but they kind of did. You know, I think for a variety of reasons. You know, you could come up with a pretty big laundry list of reasons you shouldn't hire IMEU doca under these circumstances if you're at the Nets. But I think what I like about it, as far as Jacques Vonn specifically, is this is a guy who understands the facts on the ground.

You know, he's not coming into a new situation, a team that has a lot to figure out in terms of the basketball, an organization that has a lot to figure out in terms of how it's going to function moving forward, especially as it relates to whether Kyrie Irving will be a part of it. it. And this isn't someone you need to get up to speed. This is a coach who's already well regarded with players within the organization. It's a coach who's already had this opportunity once before to be the interim coach and now he'll be the official head coach of the Nets and did a pretty good job with it to the point that you could argue maybe he already should have had this job before in the first place. Facts. Yeah, I think the thing about the Udoka situation, especially with Jacques Vaughn to me, it's like he's an ex-player and he doesn't bring all of this crazy baggage, right?

Like, you know, like all of the benefits you're going to go into accrue. Because I think people need to understand that, like, a lot of these coaches, it's not that they're bringing some crazy X&O schematic advantage in so much as they even have one is that you're able to communicate it in such a way that guys actually want to do it, right? Whatever that you can do a plan at all is most of coaching. And I think if Jacques Vaughn has. the credibility with these guys,

that they will listen to what he wants, he wants them to do, whatever that may be, then this is clearly, obviously the right choice, right? And, you know, from the stuff that's come out about Udoca, I think whatever we know,

the facts that we know, what we know currently, it's like, this probably won't be an NBA death sentence, meaning he can go on and coach again. But the idea that the Nets are going to bring this dude in, seven games into a year suspension and we just move on like yo you know nothing that's just that would have been crazy

you know like that would have been insane to do so i don't know that this guy should never coach again i don't think that that's the case but this would have been beyond the pale yeah what what is this higher represent if not the nets resting control back for their franchise because vaughn has been there since the days of Kenny Atkinson since they were grinding out wins with DeAngelo Russell, 2016, 17, I believe was his first season. So he's had nine seasons as an assistant, took over once when they fired Atkinson in the bubble, was interim coach, and now it takes over for Nash again. So this to me, Rob signals like Spurs Mafia is back in control. Kyrie is checking off a 20-part list in which she has to complete a scavenger hunt even to just like get back into the building. So I view this

is Marx and by extension Sye trying to turn the page on maybe the Kyrie Irving era? I mean, I would hope so. I would hope that's kind of where they are. But I think even if we just kind of zoom in on what Jacques Vaughn did in this spot the last time around,

there's a lot of evidence within that little sample he had as the interim head coach of the Nets before that would tell you he's pretty good at coaching some pretty shorthanded, kind of screwed up teams. Well, in Brooklyn, but not Orlando, unfortunately. Yes, yes. But so this was the starting lineup he inherited when he took over for Kenny Atkinson. Keep in mind, this is the season Katie was recovering from the Achilles injury.

Kyrie played 20 games. And so the starting lineup when he took over was Spencer Dinwiddie, Karris Lavert, Joe Harris, Wilson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan. Seventh place in the east at that time. AK.A. to 27 Yankees. The 27 Yankees. And when they went to the bubble, Spencer Dinwiddie got COVID. DeAndre Jordan got COVID. Wilson Chandler opted out.

And so a skeleton crew version of an already skeleton crew team went seven and three under Jacques Von in the bubble, made the playoffs, clinched their spot, did their job. Well, how many of those guys would now start for the Nets? Apparently all of them. Yeah, that's true. We kill for a Wilson Chandler around here these days. But I think there's some hope in there that, look,

this is a team that is trying to find its way that's had to deal with a lot of injury stuff on top of whatever it is that's hovering around Kyrie at a given moment and whatever it is that's been going on in various levels of the organization. Like they have a lot to figure out basketball-wise and they have a coach who's been able to at least do some of that with a short-handed team previously. Yeah, let me ask you this was. Nets 2 and 1 since Kyrie was sent away. The only loss, two-point loss to the Mavs, which went down to the wire.

Jacques Vaughn is there till 2023, 2024. Are you back in on Brooklyn? I was never in. I was never in on Brooklyn. That's not a thing that I was ever a part of. No, but do you believe that this can be salvaged now? I think the nets are way better than their record would indicate, meaning they're not a, you know, a 40-win team.

I don't, I think they're better than that. Just like, I mean, just look at how great KD is individually. And, you know, we can talk about Ben Simmons going to, three, and two the other day, but whatever. I think they've better than what they've shown. I don't think that they have championship medal. I don't think that this is a contender by, like, for the championship by any stretch. But yeah, this team should win 46, 47 games.

And, you know, there'll be a tough, tough playoff out. And I think Jacques Vaughn is, you know, it's just, it's better than what it was before, which was complete just chaos. The vibe's not immaculate, but they are. Decent. You know, it's just Katie scoring a bunch of points, a bunch of, like, role players playing hard. Like, that's actually what Cy said he would prefer rather than the super team that was on deck. And so, like, if that's what they get, that's fine as long as Katie is willing to buy in and play as hard as he had as of late. Yeah, let's just see if we can do it for more than like a week at a time.

Yeah, that's a future problem. That's future Katie problem, not present day, Katie problem. All right, let's flip now to another team that's in trouble for more basketball. reasons. That is the Golden State Warriors or reigning champions. They are four and seven, 12th in the West. The defense 27th in the NBA. Some of this has been pretty ugly, especially when any of the reserves get in. Rob, you're in the Bay there. How concerned are you and maybe like just the locals about what's happening to our reigning champs here? I mean, they're not four and seven bad. You know, they're not, they're not. They're not. bottom third of the league net rating bad.

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are. But I think like in aggregate, what is this team when you like really take stock of it and look at it and what it will ultimately be? Those are just not realistic indicators of the talent level here. And a lot of that comes down to the starting five is still aces. Like they have the guys who can play when it matters. They just don't really seem to have anybody else they can rely on at this point in time.

And that's starting to look like a bit of a problem, it turns out. And I think we're starting to see Steve Kerr basically admit that by the way he's managing and changing his rotation and starting to move things around. Like this is a team that has a lot of stuff to figure out for a defending champion. Yeah, I mean, I think most people were like they're going to feel the loss of Gary Payton. I don't think everybody agreed like this guy was he changed the nature of what their defense was even looking like when he came back from that injury in the playoffs. He just gave them something, like, energy-wise, that they sorely needed. And people thought that they might miss him. I don't think I thought certainly didn't think they would miss Otto Porter.

Like, that's... Views at... Listeners at home, Justin just pointed to himself and said, he predicted that they were. What about Namanya Bialitsa? Do you think they'd miss him? Didn't see that coming. Even after he stoned Jason Tatum in the finals in key one-on-one possessions.

So, yeah, I'm surprised that they've missed those three guys so much. But also, I think people say this all the time when you, if you consume any NBA media or listen to people talk, young guys suck. They're not good. We love their potential. We love thinking about what they are going to be two and three years down the line. But in the meantime, James Wiseman is not a good, effective NBA basketball player

who contributes to winning, which wouldn't be the problem if he was on Houston who's chasing lottery balls anyway while doing development or perhaps if he was on Utah, maybe he could reverse their fortunes and all the winning that they're doing. But it's bad for the Warriors because it's like, all right, we want to have an eye towards the future. But this is supposed to be a team that's defending a title. Starters, 26.2 net rating best unit above 100 minutes played. That's good.

best among regular starters. Sons and Bucks are the only better. James Wiseman minus 24.6 net. Jonathan Kaminga, minus 29 net. We're getting to the point where Anthony Lamb and our guy, Ty Jerome, two two-way players,

are getting regular minutes over some of these guys. Moses Moody didn't play early on in the game against the Kings that Steph Curry pretty much had to save them from in order to get to four and seven. So it brings us back to the two timeline question. On the one hand, it is early. On the other hand, it is a bad sign that Steph has had to save him from these games in Draymond and saying things like, yeah, we definitely needed this one. Because, like, if you want to bring these guys along, you can only do, you can only lose so many games this early.

And so if they were 500, I'd be less concerned and be like, yeah, you could kind of just do both and make the playoffs and figure it out later. but it seems like they're already acknowledging with these rotation adjustments, Rob, that this isn't going to be as easy as perhaps we thought going into the season. No, and we'll see how permanent they are, to be fair. This could be a situation where Wiseman gets three or four DNP CDs in a row

and then he's back in the mix after some kind of refocusing time and they can get some stuff in film and kind of show him what they want that he's not doing, which frankly is a lot. But I think there's also tears within these young guys. Like you mentioned

Jonathan Cuminga's abysmal on-court net rating so far. I think he's further along like certainly further along than Wiseman, but further along in a way that he can be useful

to this team and certainly more useful than that. Some of that is positional. Like I think he kind of needs to be exclusively used as a four right now and they've tried

to kind of putting him all over the place in some of these various lineups they're trying. Jonathan Cummings is just not an NBA 3 at the moment and he's not an NBA 5 at the moment either.

and so you kind of need a certain structure around him to make those things work. You need certain players alongside him to make those things work. But fundamentally, like this group of young guys, they really concern you because they don't know how to guard together. They don't know how to play and flow together. And they don't know how to play and flow with the Warriors core guys either, per se. So they're kind of in this weird in-between zone, to your point about the timelines where I don't know exactly how you develop some of these guys. if they can't stay on the floor and hang with Stefan Looney and Dremont and know what to do. Yeah, let me ask you this question was, like, which of these young guys are you most concerned with?

Because we might want to even throw in Jordan Poole here because while he hasn't been a complete disaster, like Wiseman, for instance, he's been in, as Steve Kirk coined it, a funk to the point where like he had to start him to start the second half against the Kings just to kind of get him going. I mean, to me it's Wiseman because, you know, they invested a number. number two overall picking the guy. He plays, like, the things that he's not doing well right now are things you need to do well as a center to justify your minutes. You have to be good at defense. If you're not Carl Anthony Towns on offense, you know what I'm saying?

Like, we know he ain't never going to be that kind of offensive player. The kind of player he needs to be to justify himself is going to be like this, you know, super long athletic, switchable paint erasing kind of guy. And he has not shown an ability to do that so far. He looks completely lost on that. And that's alarming because that's the thing, the theory of James Wiseman is that he's going to be somebody who dominates those areas.

If he becomes the blue chip version of himself. And, you know, another thing I want to bring up because, and I hate being the schedule scold. I'm somebody who thinks the NBA. should take a European soccer model, play once a week, maybe a round robin, basically play every team twice and keep it pushing. Like, this schedule is absurd.

It's brutal. It's ridiculous. It cheapens the product. The nature of the schedule makes it so that it's not like Steve Kerr is going to show Wiseman where he messes up on a clip, then drilling and practice the next day. That's not how this goes. There's no practice. He has to learn this on the fly, on the floor in real games.

And so we're seeing the, you know, the nature of that reality playing out. I almost don't want to dwell on Wiseman too much because I think the whole conversation zeroes in on him. But I don't like, I don't think I can name a single impact play he's made this season that wasn't a lob. Yeah. And some of that is when he, when it's not clear to him. Or he's beating the big down the floor, which looks, we all see it. It looks great when he finishes with a flush and he's leaving. leaving some other big in the dust.

But like, yeah. He just, like, he doesn't know where to go in the half court offense. To your point about the defense, I don't expect 21-year-olds to be great rim protectors, but Namanya Bialitsa would be a better rim protector right now. Like, that's not a great, that's not a great starting point. He's just a complete non-factor in that. And that's where I think he's been most dispiriting about the Wiseman experience.

This guy didn't play basketball for a year for the Warriors. He gets on the floor. I can't say he's shown much interest in doing anything other than try to slip and roll and try to post up guards to score. Like, he doesn't fight on the glass, he doesn't compete defensively, he doesn't know what to do if it's not immediately clear to him that he's about to get the ball. I don't know what you do with a player like that if you have championship aspirations other than if you just want to play this super long game and deal with all of those growing pains

over the course of the season. But as you mentioned, Justin, that's easier to do when you're at least 500 and not four and seven, which I, you know, I guess if we really want to pick Knits, we're talking about a game or two either way at this point. There's just been so few games on the schedule so far, but the Wiseman experience has just not been good in ways that are indicative of the larger problems. Yeah, it's worse than he's not, he doesn't know what he's doing. It's that it seems like he's constantly processing what to do on the court to the point where you can almost see, like, maybe he's even counting the seconds where he's in the lane. There's just this like nervous

energy to his game and there's no like no natural flow which is really surprising because he is this giant athlete who as you guys are mentioning can move fluid like fluidly up and down the court on the one hand he has only played 49 games over two plus seasons he didn't play much in college and so that is the one like silver lining to his early struggles but you know like seeing something at this point would help but i don't know like i mean this is going to be the question that the dogs them throughout the season. Waz, I guess to get to our stick here, do you believe or not believe that the warriors are in trouble?

I don't think they're in trouble, but I think they need to start thinking about bringing in reinforcements because this is the delicate balance that happens with development in the league is you want to play guys, but you also want to reward good play. You know, like you can't just say you are guaranteed 30 minutes per night no matter what you do because we want you to develop. Like there has to be some level of carrot and stick going on. And if you don't have rotational guys that automatically justify themselves for those minutes, then it's like, what are you doing anyway?

So I think the warriors need to figure out maybe getting some reinforcements in there, right? whatever that, however that may be. But, you know, no, I'm not worried, man. Like, Steph Curry is still, he's still all time great right now, and he's looked it to start the season. And to me, this is just a rotational thing, not do we have the horses to beat people because I think you'd be crazy to think that they don't. Well, here's the question, though.

like if you bring in reinforcements, what do you now do with the young players? You send them down to the G league for reps. Are these guys like too good for the G league? I would say guys like Moody and maybe even Cominga are at this point. And if you're already at that point, wouldn't it make sense to then consider aggregating them for some sort of bigger, splashier star trade that takes advantage of your veteran players? Like, I think that is the question when you kind of do anything with the young guys. Yeah, I mean, I think the short-term play and framing is can one or two of these guys improve meaningfully between now and say mid-January? Like, can they get their legs under them? And Moody is a great example. A guy who theoretically should be solid for you has not been, has not been very good, has not been able to keep people in front of him. I thought a shot selection is like a little off that he's pressing in a way that a lot of these young guys are pressing. Maybe he's someone who can figure it out. Maybe Cumminga is someone who can figure it out.

Maybe you get Dante DiVincenzo back from injury, and that feels more solid. But other than that, yeah, I think you're starting to think about external options. We're not quite to that point yet, just in terms like the calendar of the season needs to turn a little bit before you really start looking at trades. But they're going to need something just to kind of get through the regular season slate. Because we know in playoff time they have the guys. They have their core guys. The people who are going to be on the floor when it matters. all of them are already in a warrior's uniform.

We also haven't talked about Andre Aguadala yet. Maybe he comes in and does something for the bench in limited minutes that kind of transforms that unit. But this isn't good enough. To be where the warriors want to ultimately go, this group of reserves and supporting players isn't good enough. Right. All right.

Let's slip now to a team that is thriving question mark. I have, believe it or not, the Hawks are back baby. Seven and three, fourth in the east. I guess the question is, do we believe in the Trey Young Murray backcourt, which has been absolutely scintillating this far, or are we looking at the schedule and being like, huh, five of those first games came against bottom five teams, the Detroits of the world, etc. Was, how are you feeling about your hawks these days? I think I'm encouraged by the amount that Trey's been willing to go off ball. I thought that would be the key to making this work because, let's see, he's just a way hugeer off-ball threat than Murray is, right?

And Murray has some juice with the rock in his hands. And so I think that's how they would be able to optimize that. So that's cool. And, you know, the effort on defense from the front core rotation specifically where I'm somebody who's a big believer in a Congo, I'm a big believer in, um, just a group in general, John Collins and all of these guys, that they should be able to stop folks, right?

And if they're executing, they're going to be able to do that. Again, I'm on a wait and see because who knows if, like, they're beating teams right now. And Trey is like, all right, cool, he's cool with it. Who knows what happens when maybe they lose two in a row if Trey's going to be like,

yo, let me get back to my ball dominance here. You know, I think they need to develop this idea of it not just being Tray Young and the Pips. It definitely helps that he can still get his shots up. And I think what makes you think that this is for real in terms of the Hawks being vaguely, generally this level of good, which is kind of a mid-tier playoff team in the Eastern Conference, maybe in that like four to six range ultimately, is the defense is probably a little over its head right now,

but I think offensively they can actually be quite a bit better. Like, Trey can be a lot better. They don't have Bogdan Bogdanovich back from off-season knee surgery yet. Hopefully he can at least give them something. I feel like there's still room for this team to grow offensively, and some of that starts with the fact that maybe for the first time in the Trey Young era,

they're winning their minutes with Adam on the floor. And not only that, they're crushing those minutes. Like the DeJante Murray-only minutes have been huge. And so the fact that you have have all-star point guard play at all times, I think has put them in a really solid place in terms of just managing 48 minutes. And some of the way that their bench has come together already, you know, you see the holidays jumping in there. You're getting pretty good minutes at a Jalen Johnson, which has been a nice surprise. And a congwu, I mean, a congo looks like a dude

who's just like gunning for a starting spot, like deserving of one already. And there's just kind of like Clint Capella is holding on for dear life up there. Yeah. So the back court has been incredible. Trey is averaging 28, 9, and 3, Murray, 22, 8, and 7. I think my question when I'm watching them is, is too much of it coming from Trey and Murray now. For a while, it was just, it's just Trey. And now it seems like they're sharing a lot of the offensive burden. The point where Rob and I were talking about this off mic the other day, I can't remember the last two players on the same team with this many assists combined, right? But it almost seems like the rest of the roster, including some of the big men, are just kind of pieces to be moved around

by those guys. And it's fine when you have a Klincapella who's literally there to just be big and stand by the rim on both sides of the ball. But I am starting to worry a little bit about John Collins, who has been pretty much non-existent, especially offensively. And like on the one hand, maybe it is his best role to be kind of like a Swiss Army knife who plays a little bit more defensively and just is activated by some of these star guards that they have. On the other hand, I'm a little bit worried that he's going to get lost in the shuffle, especially when Bogdan comes back, and all of a sudden you have another guy who might be getting more reps on the ball.

And so, yes, it's working, but I don't know. Is there that same chemistry concern that I brought up kind of in preseason lingering in the background? But I think that's where starting out, seven and three helps. Because you have like a proof of concept now of, look, John Collins, So defensive effort has been great. Rebounding effort has been great. His usage has cratered, as you alluded to. And the fact that his mentality is like still,

he's still intent to do those kinds of things, I think gives you a great place to start. Because now if you hit a skid a month or two from now, you can look back and again, you have the tape, you have the track record, you have that early season's success to say, we know what we can be if you buy into this kind of role and everything is kind of clicking in this way.

The fact that John's been willing to do that and has been pretty successful in doing that, I think it could be okay ultimately. You know, like it's one of those things that's easy to say now and harder to say when you're in the middle of a losing streak and, you know, the mood has kind of dipped a little bit. But I think the Hawks could be in a nice place as far as that stuff goes. Yeah, to me, the example of making this work is Cleveland, right?

Where, you know, I think Cleveland's bigs are obviously better, especially when you consider like Capella and like his unwelieu. willingness to catch a ball. However, I think they make a concerted effort to get those guys' shots as much as they can. You know, like, we understand that they're anchoring the defense and they're doing all of that dirty work and cleaning up the mess that a Garland or, you know, a Donovan Mitchell might create. However, man, they find those dudes for paint touches and allowed him to try to do something

with the ball every now and again. And I think that's the sort of the best example of that where the guards are like, yeah, I know it's on us to score, but we want to make these guys feel like, you know, they're part of what we're doing in that whole Mike Dan Tony, the ball finds energy type of thing. You know, like these guys are staying active because of that. They're attacking the offensive glass. They're doing all of those things. But every now and again, it's just a straight up ducking.

They just get the ball and get to shoot from four feet away from the basket. And it's nice, man. And these guys will feel energized by that. So, you know, that was my skepticism with the Hawks coming in. It's like, are they going to be able to incorporate other people within the offense to make everyone feel like they're not just, you know, Trey Young's coat holder? And there's a delicate balance with that stuff too. Or it's like, do great things happen when DeAndre Hunter puts the ball on the floor?

Not usually, you know? You want it ultimately because you want him to grow into that. And yes, there's going to be spots where he can attack off closeouts and do those kinds of of things. But honestly, like, the ball is in the hands of the two guys you want it to be with, primarily. And if everyone else can be okay with that, it can find a role where they can be okay with that, that's money. Yeah, I just think it might be a little bit easier when you have a situation like the Cavs and Evan Mobley in his second year, who is seemingly a connector by nature just seems like he's an easygoing guy who just wants to play good basketball.

It might be a little bit easier to do that when a guy like Collins, who, as we're saying, is a gamer. Like, he's a guy who just wants to dunk on everybody's fucking heads. Yeah. And like to that point like that's part of what's like maybe energizing him on the defense events at the point where yannis even tipped his cap to the big man rotation of a congru collins and capella which is kind of like michael jordan being like nice fade away yonis like credited you for hustling but i don't know like i mean it takes me back to like the the theory like the trade theory of like would it make more sense for jay crowder or someone was a little bit more programatic and used to that role than someone like collins who in theory has a little bit more

room to grow, room to explore as an NBA, young, media player. I don't know what the trade would look like specifically, but like maybe you get long-term assets back as a part of that. But I don't know. Like I think that is where I'm worried. I like what I'm seeing thus far. But I'm like, it's good. But, you know, is it great?

I don't know. Yeah. To me, Collins has always felt like an ideal fit for Tray Young in the sense that what he brings on defense. This theoretical again, I would. say that because they don't always show it. Versatility, where it's like he's flashed rim protection in the past. His numbers, the stats are not bearing that out this year.

But in the past, he's flashed an ability to protect the rim, to switch out at the end of the shot clock, to even rebound, you know, like he's flashed all of this stuff in the past. And I think you need that next to Trey because of his deficiencies on defense. And so, you know, I would really like to see him make it work there in ATL. But yeah, if the guy's going to shoot four times a game, who knows how long he wants to do that for? This is the paradox of NBA team building, though, is do you want guys who are the cleanest, lowest maintenance fits? You know, a guy who has the game of a J. Crowder, if not the personality of a J. Crowder. Or do you want guys like John Collins who can go above and beyond and do more?

And I think we have a pretty compelling piece of evidence in the Warriors that, Andrew Wiggins is a do more above and beyond kind of fit. Right. Like when they needed him against the Celtics, he was creating and getting buckets and doing things that role players cannot do. And I'm not saying John Collins necessarily has exactly that one-to-one game, but he can create and be more dynamic, certainly, than a lot of other role players you would plug in as like a stretch four

or kind of as a tweener for in that spot. And they might need that in the playoffs. Like that might be exactly the kind of counterpunch that they need. Yeah, I was pretty instructive watching the Hawks play against the Pelicans the other day, a game that they won in overtime because those are teams kind of in the same spot in their trajectory here. And it seemed like the Hawks and more of an understanding of who they are at this point. The Pelicans obviously have had a bunch of injuries. They're working guys in the lineup. So they've been a little disjointed.

But like what the Hawks have right now works. And it feels like everybody's bought in for the moment. But we'll see in the long term. All right. Let's flip to another team that I don't know what is happening here. Believe it or not, was the jazz are also back, baby. Your thoughts? The floor is yours.

I just, I can't. I don't know. It's just the craziest thing where obviously there's a level of professional pride that kicks in when, you know, people, including your management, basically has it in their head that your team is at the level that you're going to stink because that's the route that management wants to take things. Of course, there's a professional pride that comes in. But at the same time, like, you expect this to last for like maybe two weeks. And everybody's just like, all right, man, get me on a real team. I want to chase my next deal. I want it X, Y, and Z. These are veterans we're talking about, not young players. And then,

you know, you look up and it's like, Mike Connolly's got an extra spring in a step. And Lori Markening is playing the best ball of his entire. life, which I guess we should have saw coming from Eurobasket, but that's neither here or there. And even Jordan Clarkson, where he's like an amped up version of the Jordan Clarkson we've always known. But I think that extra bit of green light of just like, no, this is your team. Go ahead.

And once you turn the corner on that pick and roll, pull up. Nobody's going to stop you. Nobody's going to get in your way. It's just, it's crazy, man. And Will Hardy, of course, he's a new coach who, this guy has. something to prove. You know, this is his first head coaching opportunity. And he wants to show people like, no, I'm worthy of this opportunity.

And I'm going to prove it to you guys, even with this mismatch hodgepodge group that we got going on. It's just fascinating, dude. Like, it's not even that they're winning. Like, they're kicking the Lakers' asses back to back. Home and home. Like, bro, we're going to kill you by 20 twice. We don't care about this tank stuff. it's insane.

It's my favorite story in the league right now. And what makes it so hard to parse is like we could sit up here and tell you how the jazz play and rave about like the ball movement and the speed and the scrappiness, like the offensive rebounding, like all these elements.

And like that could describe a six and six team. You know? Like that would be a good story for the jazz if they were 500. Their first place in the freaking Western Conference. Because they're doing that rating. Fourth in net rating.

They're doing all of this stuff at such an incredible level while getting all of those standout performances in terms of individual guys who've been good on other teams who look great in this kind of ball sharing context. But just so people understand, right? And again, it is 12 games. But traditionally, historically, a team that finishes in the top four of net rating

in the NBA for the whole season, of course, 82 game sample, is a championship contender. is a team that you have to take seriously in the championship of the league. This is how far over their heads these guys are playing right now. And, you know, like I said, man, this reminds me of European soccer

and that it's just deadly all up and down the league and even a team like Utah, which is clearly gunning for lottery balls, is just not just competitive. They're freaking good right now. Yeah, I was looking back at the standings around this time last year because I had to convince myself that at some point this was just going to fall apart that this is just early season small sample, shooting luck, we've been now, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the only real comp I could find is the Bulls being number one.

No, no, no, well, I was going to say the Bulls last year around this time. Oh, yes, yes, this is okay. With Lonzo and Caruso and they're kind of catching everybody. And that team did fall to the back of the pack, but not so far that they didn't make the playoffs outright. And so I can't see a world in which the jazz are so bad or even like sit so many of these guys or trade so many of these guys where this is just going to completely fall apart. They're nine and three right now. Zach Cram did a kind of a study on this about like how many wins is too many wins for a team that wants to be in the tank right. And he found that 25 is really the line that you can't get over.

We're basically a third of the way there. And so I think at this point, the Jazz might have to accept the fact that they are not a tanker, tankerrama for Webbenyama sort of team. But they're probably closer to like the Sun's team with Eric Bledso and Gorindrajic that played so well so early that they almost had to accept their fate and pretend to go for it. Like, I just don't know how this team flips the script at this point. This is like an actually good team. I want to ask both of you guys this question, though, because I'm reminded of the process Sixers, and I think the fatal flaw of the process was that it fostered a culture and environment of non-accountability.

And it's like, we just shine the young guys' asses all day. And that's what our culture is. We're not building a culture of like, yo, we want. We want to win. We want to build winning habits. We're about winning here, right? And I wonder what it does for your culture to just come in, which I'm assuming some of these young people are supposed to be here

the next time the Jazz put a team together that's about winning championships and be like, nah, not really. Like, can you do that? I get the cynicism of these guys are pros and they can understand where the incentives lie, and maybe you can just talk to the level with them on that. that ability, but like, this is sports, man. Like, these guys are competitive.

These are some of the most competitive people on the planet. Can you come in and just be like, yeah, fuck it? Yeah, creating accountability when you're not playing for anything is really hard to consistently do it. And we're going to see teams struggle if we're going to look at the rockets or potentially the pistons or maybe even the magic. You know, like teams in those positions in a couple months, we'll have to see kind of where their players' habits are.

But we're seeing the counterpoint here. Like we're seeing some great evidence that if you put young guys in these kinds of positions that they can be successful. But honestly, one of the weird things about the jazz is they don't have a lot of super young guys, right? It's basically Walker Kessler in terms of guys who are actually in the rotation

who are actually young players. Otherwise, it's more young veteran types. And it's guys who might be younger than you think. You know, guys who you think are 2930 who are actually 24, 25, like a Jared, like a Jared Vanderbilt in that range. but the habits are great, the performance is great.

And I think, Justin, to kind of counter what you're saying in terms of the fact that they're already winning so many games, has there ever been an easier time to talk yourself into trading for Kelly Olinick or Malik Beasley or Jared Vanderbill when he comes back from injury like Jordan Clarkson? These guys look really attractive if you're another team that needs a little punch of something. It's a great point.

So what you're saying is this is actually Danny Age is playing all along to make them look so good that you have to train. even better assets for them. The ultimate con. Yeah. No, I mean, to Woz's point about just like the bad habits that losing kind of creates here, I mean, I've been around losing teams day in and day out. And like, it's easy from just like an outside perspective, be like tank.

It's what's in the best interest of your team. But like the day to day sucks. It is in the air that something bad is happening here. And you can't get out of it. It's a runaway train because you have to play every game on the schedule. but you know February, March, that this is not going well. This doesn't matter. And that's just like, it just, everything gets a little loose.

Everyone gets a little bit more morose. And it's just like not good. And like, I think the comp was that you brought up is the perfect one. It's like the Lakers. It's like, not only is, are the Jazz just like a no star all vibes team, but like you look at the Lakers. And in particular the Clippers, who we talked about a couple weeks ago, there's just like, there's no joy to what the Clippers are doing just because like,

guys are coming in and out of the lineup. They don't know who they're playing with. Everything is just like wheels tightly. Your hands gripping the wheel too tightly because you know that the expectations are to win immediately. If you don't win the title, it's actually kind of a disaster, especially when your owner is paying like 200 million luxury tax.

Whereas like the jazz are just playing to like impress their friends. Like this is high school. Or they're just like, they just want to have a good time. They want to prove people long. There's like there's some sort of motivation, which a lot of teams, even good teams that are having success earlier on, like, don't have. And so, like, I think it's like a lesson to some of these super teams that keep building.

Like, yeah, you want to stack as much talent as possible. That's what's going to matter in the long run. But, like, it also matters that, like, people actually enjoy showing up to work, having a purpose to win. Like, the Warriors, a prime example. Like, last year, they had the motivation to show everybody that they could still do this without Kevin Durant. Everyone's healthy. Let's go and prove that this is a.

the core that matters. Look at them this year. Like, Curry even acknowledge it. They just don't have that same sort of reason to get up and play to the level of like a magic on a Wednesday, you know? And so like, I don't know. I don't mean to be like too schmaltzy about it, but there is some sort of like silver lining there about like

giving a shit. Yep. That is my TED talk. All right. Well, we transition now to a team that doesn't give a shit. Before we move on though, I want to I want to circle back to the believe it or not premise with you guys on Laurie Markinen. Do we think of him any differently knowing now that he can be a guy putting up 20 a game

who doesn't demand a lot of touches, who's not ISOing, who's not controlling the ball in that way? Does that reframe the Lori Markinen experience at all for you guys? For me, it does in the sense that because I think the counterweight is something like Julius Randall, right? Where his success is predicated on, I have the ball in my hands. And when I don't, it's hard for me to be a valuable addition to my team.

However, that guy dominating the ball will never result in meaningful wins for the team that he's on. So it becomes this paradox where it's like he's not a Jay Crowder. But, you know, when he's doing the best version of what he does, it doesn't result in greatness for anybody. We're marketing is just like, no, this can transfer to winning.

If you can put him around other great players and let him work around the edges of what that greatness is doing, and it's going to be very positive for that team. And so, yeah, it has changed my mind about Lori because he's not doing it.

You know, it'd be one thing if it was just like, all right, guys, like, is Lori Marketing going to take this team to the playoffs and we're going to watch to watch possessions at the end of the game where he's doing a Luca Donchich impression. Like, no, like this is, we know that's not the case. But, hey, man, this guy can eat on the margins.

And that's valuable. And that's really cool thing. And I didn't know that about him coming into this season. So again, this jazz thing is my favorite story in the NBA right now. Was, I'm glad that you brought up Julius Randall because Lowry has become my go-to. Can you believe how Team X would look if they had, Lowry Markinen instead of their starting power forward. Like he's become my go-to for that.

Like, Tobias Harris. Like, how good would the Sixers be if you swap Lowry Marketing and Tobias Harris? Well, I mean, that has been the issue with marketing throughout his career. Like, were his struggles a product of being just miscast in a role where the Bulls where they bring in a lot of extra help and kind of like buried him in the depth chart? And then he goes to the Cavs where he practically has to be the three man in that team. But he's kind of the three for the jazz in a lot of these lineups too. he plays with Vanderbilt and Olinick a fair bit.

Yeah, I think it helps that the ball just isn't sticking too. Like, I think the one thing that jumped out to me, and we kind of talked about this, is like, like, when you're in a system there where everyone has, like, an equal opportunity, it seems like he's more likely to thrive. Like, I was thinking about this a lot when I'm watching the Pelicans, where they have all of these guys, you're wondering, like, oh, man, who's going to get the opportunities here? And, like, the ball just kind of moves. The hawks are a little bit like this, too.

And I wonder if this is more a product of like keeping the ball moving and not sticking it to like just isoing stars. Like the Lakers, unfortunately are the opposite comp here where they're basically asking Anthony Davis to save them in isolation. It's just not working where it's like maybe Marketing just needs to be in a right place where everyone is a little bit more on the same level rather than being fourth in the pecking order, stand in the corner, shoot threes and like try to guard threes, I guess, on defense. But, I mean, it's an offense driven by Jordan Clarkson and Colin Sexton. And they're one of the highest assist teams in the league. Like, what a time to be alive. They believe. All right.

Let's flip now to a team that isn't believing in a lot these days, a team that I got to say, just the quotes coming out of that locker room these days are just incredible. The Timberwolves, I have believe it or not, the Timberwolves, don't respect the craft. This is a direct reference to Austin Revers, future ringer employees. question mark who after getting blitz the other night against the Knicks, right, had this to say, we've got to lock the fuck in, buy in, lock in, know who we're playing, respect the craft, respect the game, they beat our ass tonight. We got to get it out of the mud. And there are plenty of other people who chimed in saying similar things. Rob, you spent a little time around this

team in preseason. I think everyone assumed that this would take some time to figure it out. But are you surprised that how bad it's been this early going? I am. But first, not to put work on anybody else's plate, but I think we need like a new intro to the pod cutting up that Austin Rivers quote. You know,

like you get some trip hop going with the lock the fuck in, buy in, lock in, respect the game, respect the craft. I think we can get something good going with that. but no, like, it's been bad. Look, here's the thing with the whole Towns-Gobert situation, the wolves more broadly, all the questions and concerns about that team

need to start with whether they're willing to actually give a shit because what's going on, there's fit complications, there's fit problems, but like Minnesota new teams were going to try to run against them. Like you put bigs on the floor, they're going to try to run, and they just don't want to get back in transition defense. Like, this is a team that is not dedicated to doing any of the small dirty stuff to fighting for any of the 50-50 balls that looks really lifeless and has had some

like really embarrassing first half efforts where they just come out and let less talented, less capable teams put up huge leads. And this was a team that was a high effort scrambling team last season. Like that's how they won was compensating for everything they couldn't do by pressuring the ball, by covering for each other, by getting after it. And we're not seeing any of that at all. And until they do that stuff, they're just not going to win many games. Yeah, and this is one of the rare times that the media kind of got it completely right,

especially with the two big trades from the summer of Mitchell and Gobert. It was like, all right, the Mitchell thing is going to be a pretty seamless fit. He literally is filling a grave need, and they have the pieces to mitigate any of his weaknesses. This is going to work immediately. You know, it's going to look like something that makes sense immediately just from the fit alone. And with Rudy, it was like, this is a clunkier fit. This is going to be difficult. This whole Twin Towers thing is not something we've seen people going to in the NBA.

Towns has shown a difficulty and moving his feet and being in the right spot and having anticipation or any kind of awareness on defense. He's done that his whole career. And it was going to be tough to sort of make this fit, you know, both offense and defense. because of Rudy's offensive limitations. And I think we've borne that out. I think the frustrations there that players are saying, maybe it seems like there's not buy-in to what they're doing

and that it will work. So maybe that's what it is. I would like to be hearing a little bit more buying from these guys this early in the process. But I don't think anybody surprised that the Rudy thing has not fit like a glove. Yeah, I'm not as concerned about the effort stuff, which, I mean, maybe that will balance out.

Maybe it's something that's irrevocably wrong with this team. I don't know. But, like, I'm more concerned with Edwards, basically saying that he's having trouble getting to the rim because it's so crowded. And that he likes the small ball lineups because you're going from something that did work. Like, there was nothing wrong with the Vanderbilt, Carl Anthony Towns front court. Like, they got them to the playoffs. Maybe the ceiling was a little bit lower than what you're going to have at this team. But, like, to go from that where they had so much success, they were just this young.

team who was really figuring themselves out and everyone's getting behind them. Edwards is the next star and like, yeah, fuck yeah, this is great. To this thing that's just a slog and even when it's at its best isn't going to have the same pop that that team had. And so I don't know, like it looks like two different teams at times where you have towns in the lineup and the offense is really surging and then Gober gets in there and then the defense looks good. And I don't really know how to bridge that defied even when like they figure out the fit.

Does that make sense? Like listen to what you're saying in terms of the comp here. Like they look so much more dynamic offensively with Jared Vanderbilt. It's like but it shouldn't but what I'm saying is it shouldn't be that different. And I think where the mental hurdle is coming in is for guys like Edwards is for guys like DeAngelo Russell

who now when they're bumping up against the first level of resistance, now when they're starting to get a little frustrated, they're letting it affect their effort level. And that's kind of torpedoing the whole team when stuff like that happens. And Towns, Carl Towns is so deep in his own head on offense right now because you can see him trying to figure out, trying to pick his spots, and he's just picking the wrong spots consistently in terms of when to attack, when to push. Somehow he's averaging more offensive fouls this season when that was like his biggest flaw last year.

And he just can't find the lanes and can't find the opportunities. And so when you have so many of your principal stakeholders bumping up against problems, it just feels like everybody's a little lost and they're letting that kind of dictate how bought in they are on the whole experience when in reality, this should not be that different offensively

than Jared Vanderbilt. It's really not. It's not like Rudy is demanding a ton of control of the offense. It's not like he's shaping what you're doing. Like the overall contours of it are pretty much the same. Like I don't know why you would think if you're Anthony Edwards that like your lanes were so much more wide open with Jared Vanderbilt than Rudy Gobert,

other than your team is a little confused and people don't quite know where to be. Yeah, I think what these guys ultimately need to realize is that if they're going to win, it's because they're pretty good on defense. Like, legitimately so. And the rest of it, offensive-wise, have faith in your talent to figure that out.

But when Rivers is saying locked in, nobody's ever talking about locking on offense. Nobody's ever talking about respecting the game. They're not talking about offense when they use those type of grit and determination. They're talking about defense. And I think this team needs to take on a more defensive identity. Because last year they were an offensive team, right? They were one of the best offenses in the league.

And, you know, they could detonate at any moment. And that became their identity. They were this free-wielding, you know, aunt could launch at any moment. The same with Carl Anthony Town. I think they need to adjust their mentality and be like, no, we got to, you know, get our fingers in the dirt and the mud, get it out the mud, as Rivers said, and take on a more defensive mentality. I guess my counter to the Vanderbilt point that Rob brought up

is, is Gobert going to raise their ceiling enough to where the tradeoff makes sense? I think he could if there was buy-in. Yeah, it's a fair question, though. it's like he's going from I don't remember what they were last year but they were around 14th I think defensively they were a good defense that was getting better over the course of the season

to what is now the ninth defense enough for potentially torpedoing your offense because I think we would all agree that Edwards is the superstar here right this is their best player and I mean not if he plays like this yeah but how much of that is a result

of what they've done it almost feels like they've made things more difficult for the future of their franchise. I think that is the big concern. I think he could figure things out, but if he's already saying, like, I'm bumping up against guys, it doesn't feel as right to me

as what happened last year. I think that's a concern because that's what you need to be, like, building toward long term. Yeah. I mean, the Gober trade can be read

in a lot of different ways because of Edwards, right? Like, you could read it as they're not doing Edwards any favors because they're putting another big out there and they're not playing five out.

Or you could read it as, and this is kind of how I interpreted it when I was reporting that story, they were making a huge bet on Edwards, on the idea that he would be able to overcome and transcend some of those initial limitations and become a more dominant playmaker, a more dominant creator, get to even more efficient shots, even though the spacing isn't there for him necessarily in this alignment and the way it might be otherwise. I think that's ultimately the bet the franchise is making is that he can be that superstar. And that's where, in terms of a front office, you have all these different theories, like, do you want to,

empower your best player to the absolute best extent you can, or do you want to leverage the things that they do well in the hopes that you can then prop up your defense by acquiring Rudy Gobert or doing other things like that. That's quite the pickle. And part of the reason we're in this situation is because Edwards is a young enough player where he doesn't have all the answers.

And sometimes he's going to get frustrated and stand around and he's going to get complacent and he's going to be passive at sometimes or settle for shots. Like that's going to be who he is. The question is, can he get to that point by the end of the season where he's trucking through that stuff? and doing everything we know he can do. And here's the thing, too.

And we have the Rudy comments and the notes where he's just like, yeah, we got to get better at the stuff that your family doesn't come up to you and high five for at the end of the game. And he's right. But the thing is, when you're a young guy and you're making your bones

and you're growing in status and acclaim in the league, you get attention for pull-up threes, how many of those you made, how many times you've made, times you drop 30, not for being sound in weakside help. That's just the facts of life of NBA stardom, right? And is it going to develop a mentality where it's like,

I need to recalibrate what success is in a given game or a possession. Like, yes, the crowd goes nuts when I make two pull-up threes in a row. And it feels amazing. And they're going to play it on SportsCenter and all of that, all Instagram videos that I'm tagged in is going to be of those moments. But, man, to win is going to be that smaller stuff that I've seen him do. I've seen him be great on weak side. I've seen him help at the rim.

I've seen him switch out to guards and just snuff out attacks. Some of the best guards in the leagues. Like, I've seen this guy do this stuff, right? And you wonder if he's going to adopt the mentality of this is what's going to also make me a superstar. Because I think, you know, and you never want to invoke LeBron. But I think when LeBron took off is when he started taking defense seriously every night where he's like, no, I'm the best wing defender in the NBA. I'm going to kill people on defense every single night on top of the crazy stuff that I'm doing dropping 30 all the time. And, of course, he did it when he was a young man, 23, 24, 25, 26 years old.

But that's when he ascended to like, all right, this guy is nipping at Jordan's heels here. This guy is a freaking defensive insanity, right? I think Ant has to realize that too. Let me ask you guys this question. And I might have asked this already a couple weeks ago. But now that you've seen the early returns of the Gobert Towns front court, if you're the wolves, would you have been better off trading for Murray or Donovan Mitchell instead? I don't remember Mitchell being rumored to the wolves,

but Murray was definitely in the conversation. And if I'm remembering correctly, they actually picked Gobert over Murray. And so, Rob, would Murray, for instance, be a more clean fit, someone who might fit what they're trying to do around Edwards a little bit better than Gobert? I think he's a cleaner fit and maybe ultimately, weirdly enough, given the conversation we're having, like a lower ceiling star for them. Like, if they can make the Gobert thing work and that starts with wanting to make it work with a lot of the principal stakeholders there, I think the best version of that team is better than the best version of the Dejante Murray. wolves, if that makes sense. And some of that is, I'm not sure that importing Murray helps DeAngelo Russell figure his shit out.

I'm not sure it really streamlines Anthony Edwards' role all that much. It may give him more space. It may give him more lanes, but it complicates some of the ball handling dynamics in a different way. Donovan Mitchell is in a totally different conversation. I think he might be too redundant with Edwards, ultimately, like in terms of what they do best. But look, the Murray conversation is a good one to have.

And I think it's probably the cleaner, easier way to go in terms of, like, what the first year of this looks like. I just think that the Goberra version of this team could ultimately be better in the long run if people can stick it out. Let me throw a third option at you was, what if they didn't do anything? Or what if they turned DeAngelo Russell's expiring contract into just more ancillary parts? Like the Grizzlies wouldn't want DeAngelo Russell, you'd presume. But like, what about like a game manager point guard next to Edwards, like a Tyos Jones? Or you just get like a Tyos Jones and a Jay crowd. It's just more about empowering the Edwards,

towns, duo, rather than trying to recreate something almost wholly different. You can't just dangle Tyos Jones in front of Minnesotans like that. You can't do it. Sorry. That's mean. I think this is where they're thinking is informed

by the playoff run next year. And there's no version of real success in the playoffs with Carl and Thinney Towns being the focal point of your front court defense and rebounding. It's just, it's just not going to happen, okay? If you're dedicated to having towns there, you had to shore up his weaknesses because you can't win for real

when you're getting bludgeoned on the boards and teams can live in the paint against you in the playoffs. And I think, taste in that caviar of the point, playoffs is just like, nah, man. Like this town's thing in the front court is not a recipe for real playoff success. And it's a bet that just like all the difficulties that Rudy brings on offense will be mitigated by, you know, a generational talent.

And I think that's what they bet on, man. So I don't know, like, I'm with Rob. I think your ceiling is lowered when you can just get bullied in the front court. Even like, you know, you think about Golden State where Draymond Green and is one of the best defensive players ever, easily. This is not even up for debate. And then, like, bro, Loonie is incredible, too. Like, he's incredible.

The ball is basically, like, glued to his hands on the boards. You know what I'm saying? Like, until you get something like a Loonie, at least, you know? And, of course, some people might say Loonie is, you know, a poor man's version of whatever Gobert is doing for you. Some people might feel that way, but they had to do something about their front court because they tasted success in the playoffs. Even if it was six games in the first round and they're out of here. But a 55-56 win team, they took to the damn brink.

And they realized that, like, you know, the thing that was missing was we needed a heft. And so getting guards in there, I don't know, man. I think they needed to get some bigs in there. But, yeah, we'll see how this goes. Also worth noting as we compare the wolves today to, like, their previous status quo, their defensive system was solved. Like, they got figured out in terms of how, what you need to do to pass to beat that kind of pressure

that they were throwing at teams in the pick and roll. If they just tried to roll that back again, they're not 13th, 14th, and defense. They're 18th, 20th in defense. These dudes got a taste of the fighter life, man. And they're just mortgaging their credit cards, just to stay at a five-star hotel for a couple weeks. So you believe it, Rob, that they don't respect the credit.

is that what you're saying? I do. I honestly, like, I don't know how I was to explain it if, like, Rudy Gobert is rebounding really well, but your team is not rebounding well. It's like, that's guards not chasing stuff down. Like, it is all the little stuff that Rudy's talking about. It is the craft. Like, buckle up.

Come on. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap it there for this week. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll be back next week. Same time, same place. See you later.