The Ringer NBA Show - New Season, New Rosters (Ep. 141)

Episode Date: October 3, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor kick off their preseason discussion by speculating the meaning of Tommy Heinsohn’s comments on Aron Baynes (1:05) and wondering about the Orlando Magic’s future with Jonathan Isaac and Mario Hezonja (7:55). Then they react to Russell Westbrook’s contract extension (15:25), Ben Simmons playing with Markelle Fultz during his de facto rookie season (27:25), Klay Thompson’s looming free agency (35:45), Jaylen Brown’s lukewarm comments on the new Boston roster (38:15), and the Cleveland Cavaliers’ fluctuating starting five (42:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Wanted to make sure you're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast this year. We stepped it up with the guests. I don't even have time to list all of them. But let's just say we have had a who's who of A-listers, A-minus listers, B-plus listers in sports, pop culture, movies, music. I mean, where else can you get Kevin Durant, Steve Ballmer, Jimmy Iivine, and Charlie Staren in the span of six weeks? Nowhere. The answer is nowhere.

You can find that literally nowhere other than the Bill Simmons podcast. We are in year 11. It's been an honor to do it. Hope you subscribe to Bill Simmons podcast. Check it out. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnan.

Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Brienball. Oh, my God. Kevin. Chris, Chris. Did you see Tommy Hidson last night? He is in regular season form already. I did see Tommy Hineson.

We'll let the people hear it if they don't know what we're talking about. I took a look at Baines in the shower. He looks like all of Australia. He is really put together. Holy mackerel. Kevin. Tommy Hidson, obviously, long time announcer for the Boston Celtics. This was last night on their broadcast.

I don't even know how you talk your way out of that one. You just have to say, I wasn't talking about his weiner, but like everybody thinks like you're talking about his weiner, right? The clip kind of just speaks for itself. Okay, here's the thing. And let's have a very serious measured discussion about this. Ooh, good pun. Do you believe Tommy Hinton was talking to, do you believe Tommy Hinton was talking?

about his wiener. Tommy Hinesson has said a lot of crazy things, and I'm not sure half the time he realizes what he's saying. I think a lot of it is just old dude making an innocent comment. So that's where I'm going to lean here, but I'm not fully confident with my response there, Chris. You think he was totally... Hold on.

Now, listen, I'm going to let you make the call on this because you have watched many more Heinzen broadcast than I. You are much more well-versed in Tommy Hineson. I mean, listen, there's an old Homer announcer like that that I grew up with. That's the St. Louis Cardinals announcer, Mike Shannon, who still calls games to this day.

And he will say stuff during the course of the broadcast, and it's one of those like where everybody just kind of nudges each other, and it's just like, maybe if anybody else said it, you'd be like, what is this dude drunk or what's going on here? But it's just kind of like, you know, it's lovable because he's your guy. Of course, he says ridiculous stuff, but that is what we expect. Heinzen, who is clearly known for being a homer and for jumping on referees and saying some

outlandish things in the past, I can't speak to whether or not Tommy Hineson was specifically talking about Baines's wiener. This is your expertise. There are going to be people listening to this right now who are like, I was not expecting the show to be led this way. No, they weren't. Let's go with old guy made an innocent comment. He was referencing muscular body frame.

Muscular body frame. You don't need to be in the shower to see that. Like that's a very specific place to be, right? Like, I mean. Are we going to go 35 minutes on this like we did with Katie in his burner accounts? I'm just saying you ain't got to be in the shower to understand what Aaron Baines looks like, right? Yeah, that's true. That's true.

The other thing is there's a real level of uncomfortability? by the guys next time time. Like, what the hell is Tommy Hansen doing in the shower anyway? Can we just, can we acknowledge that? Like, I've been in an NBA locker room no less than 500 times. I have never been in the showers, ever. And I've been a part of an NBA broadcast team.

Never been in, like, that is so off limits. Like, what is he doing in the showers? And does nobody say? Even just the way he says it's so matter of factly. Like, I took a look at Baines in the shower. He looks like all of Australia. He is really put together. Like, just reading the quote out, it's just so matter of fact.

Is he just doing, is this part of his scouting before the game? I don't know. It could be. Who knows? Tommy's been around basketball for 40, 50 years, 60 years. Maybe he knows. The only explanation for him being in this. shower. We are

breaking this down. Let's be honest, Kevin. The only explanation for him being in the shower is if he is also showering, which is incredibly bizarre. If Tommy Einstein is showering with the other players. Other than that, theoretically

you would be a closed man in an NBA shower. There's nothing about this that can make sense. In the first episode of Hard Knox, John Gruden is visiting the Buccaneers team. And as he leaves one of the rooms. I think one of the coaches says, you think he misses ball? And so maybe that's what it is in Tommy Hineson. He just misses the game. So he still takes all the steps, still goes to

practice, still showers. Maybe that's why. You think that there is a sliver of a possibility that Tommy Hineson showers with the Celtics? No. I think we spent a couple too many minutes on Tommy Hineson. All right. Then you have to explain to me why he is in the shower. We don't even know that it actually happened. It might have just been like a dream. He eats, thinks, drinks, dream Celtics. Maybe that's, it was just like a daydream. All right. Let me take a step back.

One more analysis on this particular subject, okay? Okay. I think an unbelievable moment for Aaron Baines. Unbelievable. Right? Yeah. No matter what, that's out there. Yep.

Even if you got a small one. Like, there's nothing else that comes to my. fine when you think of Aaron Bates. He can brand this too. He can put it like on T-shirts like he's really put together. Right? Like that's going to become the thing. He is not known for anything else.

Anything. There's nothing that's happened in Aaron Baines' career that is significant. And now that will be easily the most viral thing that he has been a part of. And I don't know what he did to deserve this besides possibly having a big one. but that's kind of going to be that's going to kind of be the scouting report on you. You know what I'm saying?

Yep, he looks like all of Australia. I mean, that is. Aaron Baines is married though, unfortunately. Oh, wow. So obviously it does not help as much as it possibly could, right? You know what?

O'Connor, you're kind of in the area, single guy. Why don't you go hit Hinton up and be like, you know, I was reading this article by Kevin O'Connor from the ringer today. and you want to talk about a guy with a big one, man. What? Right?

Just tell Tommy Heinz to go tell everybody your wiener's big. It's kind of his thing now. It's all good. I thought you were going a different direction with that. But anyway, okay, yeah. All right, so we are in, obviously, mid-season form on the broadcast area. I actually saw live NBA basketball last night. I went to the Grizzlies and the Magic.

And, you know, preseason basketball, you're not going to, you're not going to glean all that much. But I do want to tell you a couple different things and our listeners. Number one, the two things that stood out to me, and I'll just talk about the magic side of this, they are going to be really, really bad, Kiv. That team, and I know they hired what I think everybody universally feels as an extremely competent general manager from Milwaukee. But he has his work cut out for him because when you look up and down that roster, it is just extremely bizarre the way it all fits together. You know, it seems. seeing some of the guys in person, you know, I want to see what his own you looks like.

And is it possible that he takes a leap? What does Aaron Gordon look like now? The one for sure that you recognize immediately when you are watching. And in fact, I know this is going to sound strange. But if you lined up everybody on a wall on that magic team and me and you were going to draft from it, I would take Isaac. Oh, yeah. I would. Yeah, definitely.

Well, that's pretty crazy, considering he's just like the last guy. Like, he has not played in an NBA game yet. And he is just like he was their last draft pick. They got guys on that team and they've got high draft picks on their team. Isaac is extremely tantalizing talent. He is bigger than I thought he was, seeing him in person. Very long, right? Very long.

It's like freakishly horrible hair, by the way. Just atrocious. Oh, come on. Yeah, I think it takes away from me. He looks so... He's got cool hair. No, he doesn't. He looks so goofy.

In between him and Peyton, that team has the worst hair in the league. They do. If Isaac listened to the Ringer NBA show and he's like, Chris Fernett has bad hair. I don't care. What do I care? Do you think I care if somebody thinks I got bad hair? I don't care. What a goofy haircut.

Yeah. I mean, you don't think people have said... I get way worse things said to me on a daily basis, Kevin. Okay, that's fine. Somebody, in fact, I would invite people talking about how crappy my hair is, considering what I go through. Of all the things, please, for the love of God, talk about my hair. That's true. Isaac's good, though.

I was watching the highlights where you were talking because I didn't see any of that game last night. And he looks good. Had some nice plays, tight close out, some good fluid boots. I wish we would have seen him in Vegas. I saw him on NBA TV in that Orlando Summer League game. I was there for his games there. One or two of them. I believe I saw one, but he's good.

You know, and obviously, Florida State is not the massive brand in college basketball playing there. So not as well versed in him as I was, some of the other ones that played on more high-profile teams. The other one last night is every scout I know was all in on Hizonia. That was the Porzingis draft, correct? Yeah, that's the same draft. And so every NBA Scott I talked to was very high on Porzengas. They were sure of him. They were also sure of His own yeah.

And so it's weird to me, and I wondered, is he in a bad spot? Is it where he went? Is there a matter of opportunity and fit, which so many of these guys can get lost in the shuffle? Or is he really not what so many projected him to be? Watching him last night, I feel like I lean more towards the ladder that he is. is not what people expected him to be. And I think a lot of it is, and once upon a time a scout told me that overseas guys, size really translates, and on college guys, speed really translates.

But it is very hard. Like, you know you're taking a big guy and putting him in the NBA, and he's still going to be big, right, if you take him from overseas. But there are a lot of guys, perimeter-wise, that if you take them from overseas and you stick them in the NBA, there is such a massive athleticism difference in terms of their competition that they look like radically different players. And I kind of feel that way with Hazonia. It is hard to be really, really good if you're not a great athlete. And you think a lot of the guys from overseas that are perimeter guys, whether it's Parker, whether it is Dennis Schrooter, both really fast guys.

You know, Genobley's always been an underrated athlete. I don't know. He doesn't seem like much of an athlete to me, his own yeah. And so I wonder where he's going to fit long term. I'm not ready to give up on his own yeah. But at the same time, like, he is somebody who never really over the past four or five years that he had an opportunity where he's played consistent 20 to 25 minutes per game. I mean, he's always been like an under 20 minutes per game guy, whether it's in the NBA or when he was playing for Barcelona. He was like a 14, 15 minutes per game guy because that was a really good team. So I think for him, I wish he could have played like 30 minutes on a D-League team. I wish we could have seen that from him where he would get heavy developmental minutes in order to get used to and get adjusted to that athletic system on a heavy basis. With that said, like, with his provided opportunities, he hasn't been good. And he hasn't taken advantage of those. He played fewer minutes his second year than he did his first year, and that drop off might continue this year.

So definitely a little bit more, a lot more worried about Hizonia now than I was. before the draft when I really liked him. It's disappointing, though. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because not that, like, everybody out there is desperate for Orlando Magic News, but I do think he is one of those, especially because you could have a massive roster overhaul with that team. And so I think if you're a fan of anybody else in the league, you're kind of looking at that roster and thinking, okay, more than likely, especially with Vogels their coach,

they got the new guy in charge, their roster, there's no reason why every. should not be available. And so you're trying to decide, like, okay, who would we want to poach from the magic? And I'm just not so sure. I think a lot of people probably would have been on the, we should go snatch his own yet. And I don't, I don't know if you, I would not be nearly as excited about that as I once was, right? I don't know if you're just stealing him away and he's going to become a radically different

player than what we've seen so far in Orlando. That's all. If you have a lot of cap space and you're able to take on the, uh, remaining ear on his deal, he can become a restricted free agent in 2019. Then maybe you take that risk and give him an opportunity for the next year and a half if he were available. Yeah, because they have just so much stuff going on that just doesn't make sense, right? Vucevich is an extremely good, still relatively young, big, and then you go out and get somebody like Biombo. And, you know, Aaron Gordon, who you would think would be maybe something, you know, at least part of what you might

build around a future core. And then you take Jonathan Isaac, right? And so how do they fit to They're like, it's all just, it's all mixed and match. And I think it's, that's a tough spot for Vogel, for sure. There are not many teams, especially in the East, that I would sit back and say, all right, they're not a playoff team. Because I think virtually now, because of the bloodletting of stars out of that conference, I think Hope Springs Eternal for most teams. But I do not believe that is so with Orlando.

It's going to be a long ride back to the top. All right. Let's talk about a couple of things that have happened since we last spoke, one of which was Russell Westbrook, let's start with that. He signs the biggest contract ever, the long extension. Sam Presti locks him up for the long term. This clearly changes people's ideas about, I think, the future of Oklahoma City, and more importantly, what free agency and how it could play out in what should be a ridiculous summer next summer. When you saw the news come across about Westbrook, tell me what you're thinking. Take that money, baby. Five years.

$205 million. Unbelievable for a guy that had three knee surgeries a couple years back who got a PRP injection last month. Take that money and that security that comes with it. I think it was a great decision for Westbrook just to do it because it's not like the future can't change if you did necessarily want out in the future. And you're rewarding Sam Presti for the job he did this offseason acquiring Paul George and Carmelo Anthony. Are you kidding me? I mean, that team, they're not the favorites in the West. might not even be the second best team in the West, but they have a chance. They have a chance

to be. And if you're Westbrook and if you're committing, that increases the probability that Paul George commits. That increases the probability perhaps that Carmelo does if you want them to when that time comes. I think Oklahoma City really pulled off a miracle this summer with putting a team together that could be great. And because you could be potentially great, you set yourself up to be that team that those waived players want to go to because they want to latch on and try to win a championship. You become that team that those veterans want to sign minimum contracts for. And they've been pretty good at drafting in the past, where with the picks that they do have remaining, they could use those and continue building. And I think Oklahoma City, I have concerns about

their roster. But at the same time, I think if it works, it could be pretty, pretty terrific, Chris. One of the points that was made on Twitter, and forgive me in advance, because I can't recall who it was that said it. But one of the things that I read was somebody said, one of the things that isn't brought up that much when people talk about a one-year rental is beyond it being a, quote, one-year rental, as many perceived it to be for Paul George. It is a one-year recruiting process.

like that happens right so for a year you have him to yourself in order to recruit him now in the end if he wants to go somewhere else and he wants to go play you know if he's gonna if his heart is set on playing elsewhere and there's nothing you can do so be it but you will get a full year with those guys to build the relationship and attempt to get him to sign up long term with you and i think that is a a reasonable point that does kind of get overlooked when we think about guys going for, you know, sometimes at the trade deadline till the end of the year, or maybe even if it's a foregone conclusion that they're only going to be wherever they are for a year.

You got a shot at them. You know what I mean? And I think I think you're right on your point on once Westbrook locked in like he did, there's no mystery on that end, right? So if he likes playing with Westbrook and he thinks that they've got a chance at doing big things, you know, I do really believe that. So much of these guys' decisions now more than ever is about basketball and simply basketball. Because, you know, when you're around them, like, they ain't home all that much, Kev.

No, they're not. Like, their whole off season is spent wherever they want to be, right? But they're on the road so much. And when they are home, they're sleeping. Not some of the young guys, though. Some of the young guys, they, you know, will go out. I get it. But you are gone a lot.

And then when you're home, you know, their routine many times is not like going. out all the time, right? And so I don't know. I don't know. I think that maybe now so many of these guys have places in the offseason and for the All-Star break and wherever else that it's not as big a deal to be in a, quote, big market necessarily, especially if that means that you've got a better chance to win in the small market.

It is kind of funny how Oklahoma City has three big market guys. Like we have Paul George, who rumored be going to the, wants to go to the lake. wants to go home to L.A. We have Carmelo Anthony, who's always kind of, you know, bright lights big city type of guy with New York and all that. And you think about the target destinations for him, it would all be big cities. Russell Westbrook, another high-profile player, one of the largest brands in the league,

just signed that big contract with Nike. I think all three of these big market, big city guys that you would tend to associate with them are all playing for one of the smallest market teams. And that's kind of fascinating. Never mind that. Like, never mind that. Like, just the basketball implications. Like, it is a fascinating fit with these guys.

Oh, for sure. I think it's very possible that this team could get off to a little bit of a slow, worrisome start because you have guys that are going to have to change and adapt. But people, like, need to keep that in mind and not worry too much because what matters for this team is how they're looking in February, March, April as they approach the playoffs. Because all the chemistry that they're going to have to build over the course of the season might not come for quite a while. Because you have Russell Westbrook, one of the most ball dominant seasons ever. Carmelo Anthony, ISO, ISO, ISO.

And that's really about it. A lot of ball stopping. And Paul George, I'm a little less worried about. I think he can ease into a role. I'm not sure how you feel about that, Chris. But I think Mello and Westbrook are going to have to make the most adjustment here, whereas Paul George can kind of just slide in and do what he does. Yeah, but I think George is going to sacrifice the most of the three.

Yeah, you did mention that before. Yeah. in the quote, Bosch role, as it were, if it's going to work. That's what I think will happen. And for George, playing in Oklahoma City won't be that big of a difference, right? From, I mean, he has spent his career in Indiana. I could foresee a circumstance where Mello really enjoys it to not wake up on a Tuesday morning and your face beyond the cover of a paper that, like, the headline might say, you suck. You know what I mean?

Like, that might be, hey, it might be nice. Nice, right? I don't know, because didn't Kevin Durant have that newspaper cover in Oklahoma City a couple years ago? Make no mistake about it. That was against Mr. Unreliable. That's what it was, right? Mr. Unreliable. Yeah, it was after, you know, the big talk was Tony Allen making him inefficient.

And look, they lost him. He really was Mr. Unreliable. It called their shot. Yeah, they were right. Yeah, no, that was a big deal. when that happened. Because that was out of nowhere. They'd never done anything like that.

That is just so uncommon for that to be a headline. That was 2014. Wow, I can't believe that was three years ago now. I mean, it's what you expect if you're in New York, right? Like, you wake up and you know the paper is going to say all manner of things.

And you just, that's what life is. And so I do think that Carmelo could maybe have some, find that as quite the relief. I don't think he has to worry about, waking up to horrific headlines, slandering you on a regular basis. We'll see, man. Who knows?

Times can change quickly. No, he's not the guy anymore, though, right? Like, Westbrook is the one of which success and failure will be attributed to the most. For sure. He's their guy. You know, that'll be interesting. You know, let's say it doesn't go as well as expected. And Westbrook continues kind of doing what he does last year.

And that's dominating, right? but, and this was kind of the topic of my article where it's like maybe it would be a little bit better for Westbrook to take a little bit more of a back seat, right, for the benefit of his new teammates. And maybe it would be beneficial to take a little bit less of a ball dominant role so Billy Dunovan can perhaps install a little bit more of the ball movement type of system he used when he coached at Florida. And would he get blamed there? No, I don't think he would if he's still continuing to dominate. but I do think they're similar to the old debates with Durant versus Westbrook, who's more to blame for their annual failures. It's a little bit similar where it's like there's shared blame across the board,

but I could see the finger being pointed at the new guys. Like Carmelo, it's his fault, you know, for ball stopping. Or Paul George hasn't scored 28 points per game, you know, like maybe he should. That's what might be a take people have. Whereas maybe it could be because Westbrook continues dominating too much. when he should kind of ease back a little bit and pick his spots better. I am actually willing on the Westbrook front, I lean towards the ladder of your two things. I think he will sacrifice and step back.

And I say that because people forget, you know, you got the triple double season and this insanely high usage and all this kind of stuff. He clearly could have done more. Yes, maybe it would have been less efficient as it was last year. But he played alongside Kevin Durant who led the league in. scoring and won the MVP of the league. It is not as if he took away greatly from Kevin Durant's game. The guy won the MVP and led the league in scoring and had amazing seasons. And so he was able to do that.

And now I get it. You're adding another guy into the mix. But I do not think, I don't think that he is one of those guys that you would look at. And if his teammates are not successful, that he's an easy target to blame and to say, Yeah, well, look who they're having to play with Russell Westbrook. Russell Westbrook has played well with others before, you know? Speaking about blame, Chris, did you see the negative Nix campaign thing that Fox Sports One has an ad campaign on New York Subways? Do you know what I'm referencing?

Oh, like the hopeless or something? Yes, the hopeless thing where like there's seats that say sit here if you blame Mello, sit here if you blame Phil, sit here if you blame Dillon. That's incredible. But Mello's coming from that. I know, that's what life's like. It's really a creative campaign. I mean, I don't want to overstate this, but like, Carmelo Anthony can be walking down the street in Oklahoma City, and everybody is going to walk up to him, want to get his autograph, want to get a picture taken with him, talk about how happy they're having to have him there and whatever. And like, this guy is coming from like, if he walked down the street for the last three years, people would be like, hey, Molo!

And then you like turn around if you're him and they're like, I fuck. you. What, wait, what? Is that your New York City impression right there? Can we get a Boston one from you? What's their big thing? There's like Fenway Park. Okay.

Go to Fenway Park. Is that what we're going to do? Fenway Park, right? Yeah, by the way, why don't you have an accent? I don't know. People have said I have an accent, but then other people say, ask me what you just did. Why don't you have an accent? Did you grow up in Massachusetts?

Yeah, but not everybody has like those hardcore Boston movie accents. Not everybody talks like that. Unless you're from like South Boston. No, the real ones do. You're a phony Boston guy. Whatever. It is what it is. You really never, you never pronounced your like, your R's.

The R's is the big one, right? I think maybe when I was a kid I did it a little bit more. I don't know what changed. So you say, like with absolute diction, Fenway Park. Yeah, I don't think. You've never said Pock. I don't know. Maybe when I was a kid I did.

I think I had a little bit more of an accent when I was a kid. but like if I'm talking to you and I'm talking about Fenway Park like that sounds like Park right I don't think I'm saying Fenway Park it doesn't come out like Pac like that but you know I can do it I can turn into that if I want to and act like a Boston radio caller or a character from Goodwill Hunter yes all right let's get to some of these other things

you did write about Ben Simmons who shoots at the wrong hand you have brought that up many times this is one of your big quest is to get Ben Simmons to switch hands shooting very interesting prospect to say the least. Yes. His college team was a disaster. He is one of very few.

And in fact, I think we repeated it this year. This has just been so bizarre in the sense the guys that have gone number one played on not okay college teams, like terrible, terrible college teams. Like, that's never happened. You never saw these guys that were on awful teams get drafted number one. And so we did not see these guys on the biggest stage. We didn't see them in the NCAA tournament. And then clearly, in the case of Simmons, we haven't seen him since LSU for all intents of purposes.

So he is a great mystery. He was a massive, massive talent. It did not hurt his draft stock by going to LSU for the year. I know you were a little higher on Ingram coming out of that draft. but you still really like Simmons and think he could be a special talent, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think you're blind

if you don't think he has a chance to be a just sensational talent. There's just very few guys who are 6'10 who have guard skills who move as fast as he does. Like Brett Brown calls him Usain Bolt on the court just because of the way

Ben Simmons, when he gets rebounds and he just goes. He just goes up the court and he zooms past guys. And if your defense doesn't get back, and this goes for preseason, like immediately, when you watch him, I believe they play tonight or tomorrow, I think it's tomorrow, Wednesday night, when the Sixers play, like he's going to have a moment, at least in the game, where he just goes fast and transition and scores.

And that's where he's most exciting. The question is half-court offense, how that develops, his jumper, if that develops. If because he doesn't have a jumper, it ruins his ability to get to the room. Those are the questions. But half-court transition when he's in space. boy is he special, Chris. Also extremely tall. Yeah, right?

I mean, I think that is... Oh, and have you seen him in the shower? He's Australian. Happens to be Australian. This Simmons. Oh, boy. These Australians. Shout out to Australia, by the way.

No, in all seriousness. What do you make of the whole, him bringing the ball up the court? him running point guard. And in what way do you think it affects Fultz? Do you think Fultz is a guy that is going to find a place both on and off the ball? And so that that would not in any way, I don't want to say stunt his development, but maybe not be the best thing for him to be alongside.

Or do you think it would be better to just go ahead and put the ball in Fultz's hand primarily from the jump? What do you think? On the way they fit together and how. you see Simmons being used because I was of the impression that he would, you know, I think when he came out, he'd be more of like the quote point forward. Yes, you run a lot of offense through him, but he's not necessarily the guy that like, you know, on an inbound's play is bringing the ball past half court. Those are some really interesting thoughts, Chris, because like there's a lot of good that could come from it or a lot that can go wrong because, A, I think

Ben Simmons is like a more talented playmaker than Marco Fultz. I think he's more ready to take on those ball handling responsibilities, those playmaking responsibilities. But with that said, Fultz, for that to work most effectively, needs to be an effective spot-up shooter. And he revised his jumper mechanics that look really funky, and I worry that he's not going to be able to replicate his 40% plus three-point percentage that he had last year at Washington. And if he doesn't, that hurts floor spacing.

So if you put the ball in Fultz's hands, that means Simmons needs to space the floor, but he shoots with the wrong hand, and he can't effectively space the floor. defenders are going to sag off him, which hurt spacing even more. So you have a fundamental issue there where it's like those guys, at least Fultz, needs to be able to hit jumpers. And Simmons needs to be able to get to the rim. And I kind of feel like the best way to play them would be Fultz playing point guard, this kid playing small forward, and obviously your floor spacer is your two guard reddick.

Sure, yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like, so over the past couple years, I love what Brett Brown's done. He has installed a system that they can fit in these good, talented players and make it great, right? He has the system built based on ball movement, getting to the rim and shooting three. They just haven't had the personnel. And now they do have better personnel. And I hope they don't go away from that.

I hope they continue whipping the ball around the floor because that's when they can be at their best when, yes, you're right, Chris, where other guys are handling the ball and maybe Simmons is hovering around the baseline, right, for those cut dunks at the rim. For lob dunks, he can set screens and roll in the pick and roll and catch lobs or finish athletically with fluidity. That's maybe when they can be at their best. It would be a problem if Ben Simmons is just tall Rajan Rondo. And all he's doing is pounding the ball, pounding the ball,

running the clock down, and there's not a lot of movement. That would be scary for me if they go to that from what they came from. I think they need to continue running the same system that they have. And that's going to be really what I'm watching. for in the preseason is how does the ball move when Simmons is in the game? At the end of the year, who is higher in the rookie of the year ranking, Simmons or Fultz? Simmons. I think Fultz is going to hit the rookie wall at some point. I think Simmons is built to play a full season. Do you think Simmons should be the favorite? No. Yeah, the numbers are going to go Lanzos way, aren't they?

If I were to place a bet or if I were to suggest to somebody who to bet on, I would suggest probably Dennis Smith, Lanzo ball, obviously, even though he's probably the favorite. I believe. And I think I'd probably stay away from both Sixers guys. I just think there's like too many guys where like the opportunity is going to be split. I think Simmons could go ahead of him in the voting, but I'm not sure like he's going to dominate enough to get all the reps because like Dennis Smith is going to dominate the ball. I think as a rookie, Lonzo ball is going to rack up assists. So numbers matter and opportunity matters.

But Simmons is Simmons ahead of faults, I think. The other thing is Lonzo has a real advantage by being on national TV 100 million times. The thing is, though, is he going to score enough to get the votes? Like, you need to think about, like, voter tendencies, like, who they usually vote for. I just think he is going to be part of so many highlights. Yeah. And you are going to see so much of the social media, you know, onslaught, right? There's going to be those nights where we're all up at midnight.

And Lonzo's going to make this insane play. And it is, like, that stuff matters. It just does towards perception of you. And the other thing, the Philly guys are going to be on TV a lot. The one that I like, I think you're right about Dennis Smith. Dennis Smith, it's going to be hard because you're going to be counting on hard cores and people really going out of their way to watch you because you're not going to be on center stage much at all. And the other one is, of course, my guy from Utah, Mitchell, who I love. Yeah.

I mean, I love him. I think I have so much Donovan Mitchell stock. So I think that he could have a shot at it. But again, it's hard when you're not on TV a lot and you're just not part of that. National conversation, NBA, Twitter, Reddit, et cetera, et cetera. And when you're not starting. Yeah. Like Deerrin Fox is like top six, top five or something like that in terms of odds.

But he's not starting. So it's like I wouldn't feel comfortable placing a bet on him. I would want a guy that you know is going to get 25, 30 plus minutes per game. And that's where Dennis Smith is safe. Lonzo's safe. Simmons is a good person to bet on. Tatum, hell no. You know, like Fox, risky.

Malik Monk, probably not. Josh Jackson, he can, he's a possibility with an opportunity he'll get. Isaac, maybe, and on a bad Orlando team, maybe. Those guys that get opportunity are the people, they really, I think, have a chance at Rookie of the year, not necessarily just because they're top picks. Opportunity is what matters. Let me do a couple of quick hits here. Marcus Thompson and Tim Kawakami of the Athletic did a podcast in which they asked Clay

Thompson, a series of questions, one of which I thought was uninterested because it It's two years away. And so I don't know if there should be any stock put into it at all. But they asked him about, you know, kind of would you take a discount to stick around? And his answer was, I probably could, yeah, that much. I don't know. I don't make as much as Kevin Durant off the court. If it's a few million, it's a blessing, whatever contract I signed, I would definitely consider it because I don't want to lose anybody.

Should we just look at that and say, dude, it's two years away? You have no idea the way their seasons are going to play out. Clearly, they're going to be the favorites this year. You would suspect even next year if they're able to keep it all together. Most people have thought he would be the one to be sacrificed amongst Curry, Draymond, and Durant. Then if you got to lose one of them, that he would be the one. So he broaches a subject that is, again, two years away.

Should we, is this relevant at all? Yeah, I think it is. I think it's probably relevant to his agent. He's probably like, Clay, what are you doing? Don't say that. They're going to use it against us in negotiations. But at the same time, if you're Clay Thompson and that time does come, I mean, I know people always complain about like millionaires giving discounts to billionaires.

But look, if Clay Thompson is willing to give up some money on what is effectively, his part-time job, basketball, the money to be made is with shoes and everything that comes with that. That's where like these guys make the majority of the money, as we see with Russell Westbrook. Not every player, to be clear. I don't know what Clay's deal is, but generally for the superstar players, that's what it is. But for Clay, it's like, of course you would give up a few extra million if that means adding a role player or keeping a role player that gives you a chance at getting like your fourth or fifth or sixth title. You know what I'm saying?

Like, of course you would do that. So I think, you know, it's interesting, but it is a little too soon. A lot can change by the time his contract is up. So Clay Thompson's deal with ANTA is 10 years and $80 million. Okay. Okay. So he does make more. He makes more from the NBA deal.

Thank you, Isaac. So this really is his full-time job then. For guys like Westbrook and Durant basketball is a part-time job, that's something David Griffin said at Sloan Sports Analytics Conference earlier this year where he was talking about LeBron's shoe deal and all these superstar players how really the NBA deal just pales in comparison to what the shoe deals are. Another one of the quick hits that I wanted to get to is Adam Caparrell from Complex got some, I thought very surprising quotes from the very young Jalen Brown, who was expected to be an integral

part of what they do in Boston this year. His quotes were about that whole Isaiah Thomas Kyrie Irving deal. And I'll read everybody, the quote that can hear this, this is what Jalen Brown said. It changes the whole dynamic, the whole culture. We'll see if it's for good or for bad. Time will tell. But it's still a little weird to me, to be honest, because when I came in, everything they stressed was culture, environment, Celtic basketball. Now it's like, what is the environment, the culture? What is Celtic basketball? I think it's a great opportunity for me, great opportunity for the Celtics, great opportunity for Kyrie. Obviously, I loved Isaiah. He was like a big brother to me. I watched him, admired him, the chip that he carried on his shoulder. I love

him. I still do. I've kept in contact with him. Congratulated him when he got traded to the calves? It's tough because it's the business we live in. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. I think Isaiah definitely tried to plan his flag in Boston. He will definitely be missed. He and Jay both Avery Bradley, too. Those three guys are truly going to be missed. I love them and I thank them all for helping me out and said I'd see them down the line. I was kind of surprised by this. Very interesting. Right? It is. I mean, that's a 20 year old that's saying that? I mean, Jaylon's a very, very thoughtful dude. Smart kid reads a lot. Like, I love Janeland. But like, that's interesting. And at the same time, he's kind of right. I mean, isn't he? I mean, he's not,

he's not wrong about the fact that like, you know, this whole whole culture thing is pumped out and then they only have four returning players. But the same time, he had a line in there in his response where he's like, I realize it's a business. It's like, yeah, you're gonna, you got to realize that really soon that it's certainly a business. I think he also said, we'll see if it's for the best. I think he'll find that out very soon as well, where Kyrie Irving is indeed an upgrade over Isaiah Thomas, especially when you consider the injury issues that Isaiah could potentially have and with not returning until January. But at the same time, he's right. He's right. He's not right. It's fascinating to see a guy be that honest, that blunt, right? Especially when they're that young. Yeah, right, because he said, we'll see if it's good or bad time will tell. That is not the politically correct answer in this situation. Not at all. It is. I am so excited. I get to play with one of the best players of the world. Like, even if it's bull crap, that's what guys say. You know what I'm saying? Isaiah was great to me.

You know, I learned a lot from him, but I'm really excited by the opportunity to play with Carrie Irving. He's accomplished a lot in his career. Yeah. I'm ecstatic about the opportunity. And like, nobody would say anything. Well, right. I'm going to look to my right and there's multiple time all-star.

I'm going to look to my left and there's a multiple-time All-Star, right? Like, I mean, and that's kind of what we got now. And I'm so, like, this is a great opportunity for me, whatever. I'm so thankful to play alongside all these great players as a young player. I'm only 20 years old and I'm playing with all these all-stars. Not like, hey, we'll see. Yeah. I mean, you know what that speaks to?

It does speak to the culture that they had there. It does. Yeah. And when guys say stuff like that, it makes you think Kim, Isaiah, Jay, Avery. It just worked as, you know, as a family of sorts, right? They liked each other. It tells me, because who's the guy that usually everybody is like that has the most trouble integrating himself? is the highly touted draft pick, right?

Veterans don't want to go hang out with you at night. You know what I mean? Like, you're going and getting stuff for them and whatever else. But it's pretty clear that he, like, they took him under his wing and he was deeply appreciative of that, those three guys. And by the way, I have extremely high opinions of all three of those individuals as people, right? There's a great value to having any one of those in your locker room. Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, or Avery Bradley.

And I think those are kind of guys that you want in your foxhole when it's time to have a big game. Yeah. So I get it, right? Everybody's different. Every personality's different. And I think the locker room dynamic will change with the Celtics. Isaiah was really the type of guy who would come to work and then go home to be with family. I'm curious to see how Kyrie Irving will be as a leader.

Will he be the type that kind of like brings guys out, organize his get together? Those little things matter. As you know, Chris, you know, being around the Grizzlies for many years. Like leadership, there's different types of leaders and some are better than others. So I'm curious to see how that develops this year. Yes. All right. Let me ask you about one other quick hit, which is Tristan Thompson embracing this sixth-man role.

And Ty Lou kind of intimating that you could see Kevin Love playing center for the Cavaliers. Thank you. Thank you, Ty Lou. I'm glad he's doing it. I'm so glad he's doing it. I'm honestly shocked that he is because so many coaches value continuity and I thought he would keep the starting five the same

and maybe this would be his finishing lineup. But I think it's great because they need spacing, man. They really do, especially Derek Rose starting at point guard to begin the season. Jay Crowder, look, like he had a great year shooting the three, but I looked at the numbers recently and really like his entire career

was like 34.2% or something like that, except for the first couple months of this season where he shot like 43% from 3. So like he might not replicate his season. Like they need space for LeBron. So how do you do that? You put Kevin Love at the 5. And I think you most effectively could be getting off

the faster starts when you have that space to start off games. You get such great shots when you're playing with LeBron though. I can see Crowder replicating it. When I watch him shoot, I do not think it's insane. if he were to be, again, the number might be a little high, but I think the guy... He's got some issues with this shot. Like, this is one thing a couple years ago, or maybe it was last year, I started tracking, this is going to sound really nerdy.

There is nothing you can tell me that is going to sound more nerdy than things you have already said. Oh, come on. Don't even hit on Dragon Balls, but so there's this thing with Jay where, so you know how Steph Curry, sometimes when he lands wide, like he kind of goes into like a split stance almost. You know what I'm saying? Like when I bring, so Jay Crowder does that too, except I believe when he does that, his percentages are lower than when he lands kind of with like a narrow balance stance. And I'm serious.

Like I didn't continue. This is the new frontier. It was the 2015-16 season when I start. Yeah, no, I'm telling you, man, like, there's something to this shit. And Jay, if somebody wants to like do this with me, look at like, everything. Every three he's taken in the NBA, like you can't just look at one season. It's not big enough of a sample. But if you look at every three he's ever taken, I would be willing to bet he has a higher percentage on three-pointers when he lands narrow or balance compared to wide.

I would be willing to bet that he does because he misses short a lot when he lands wide. And he goes to that stance a lot, especially late in games, it seems. I just think that's his issue. And if he fixes that, he'll be more consistent like he was at the beginning. beginning of last season. I think that's really his issue. And if he fixes that, if you're listening, Jay, think about your stance when you land. Just to hire somebody to look at the data, pay him 50 bucks.

Oh, God. Just figure that out. No, here's what you need. You know, if you ever get there before games, right, you've been there before games when they're warming up before the game. He needs one of those big rubber, or those big rubber band things that they, like, put around their shins. Yeah.

When they're, like, kind of stretch out. they're walking up and down the court. Yeah, just get one of those and just train yourself over and over. Then he can't land wide. He is training himself because the rubber band is around his two shins on the outside.

If he listens to the show, he's like, who's this nerd telling me how to land narrow and balance instead of wide? What does this nerd now? And I would agree with him. Yeah. It's fine.

It's fine. It's fine. All right. So Tyloo already said that he's going to start Kevin Love at the 5, Jay Crowder at the four, Tristan Thompson is going to come off the bench, and that he would have Derek Rose

and LeBron James as the other two. What is up in the air, and you were mentioning spacing, so I think it's relevant to bring this up. What is up in the air is, would J.R. Smith be that role or the newly acquired Dwayne Wade? Dwayne Wade. That's another issue with spacing, Chris. Another guy. Another guy who issues with spacing. I think Dwayne Wade wants to start.

Didn't he kind of indicate that, you know, coming off the bench could be problematic, you know, getting into the rhythm of games. Well, they get a weird roster, Chris, don't they? And then Carmelo are both kind of seemingly in the same mind space on that front, right? I talked about this yesterday, something we did for the ringer that'll be out soon. But, like, that team, they don't really have a great permanent defender on that roster, right? I think a lot of people are expecting Jay Crowder to be that guy, but I don't think he's quite as good on the perimeter as people think. He's really good at switching.

He's really good defending forwards. He can switch on to bigger guys too. But defending the perimeter, he's kind of had some really bad moments, especially against higher quality guys. I don't see a guy on that roster that you can lean on to defend the best point guards on the planet, that they're going to have to beat, whether it's in the east, to get to the finals again or in the finals if they want to beat the Warriors, or if they want to beat the Rockets, or if they want to beat the Thunder.

I don't see a guy on that roster that you can lean on to defend the perimeter. They get a weird roster. given their offensive prowess and what he ended up signing in the offseason, it is perplexing to me why they would not have gone and signed my beloved Tony Allen because he would be perfect, absolutely perfect. No, just for that. I'm just talking about they got enough offense, Kev. They got enough offense.

I'm saying when it's time and you need somebody to just deploy, you don't need big minutes, he ain't going to be playing a million minutes, right? You need somebody to go deploy and shut somebody down, especially in nip-tuck games down the stretch. He can't space the floor, though. You don't need to. Their problem is not going to be offense. If you have a lineup out there with Tony Allen and Tristan Thompson and Dwayne Wade, you're not playing them together.

Yeah, but then you don't have room protection. Their roster has fundamental issues. And I think they're going to be terrific. And they could be really, really good if Isaiah Thomas stays healthy and returns to form. They can be really great. But it's those little things. They need to find a guy by the time April, the playoffs are rolling around.

By the time the waiver deadlines over, whatever, to pick up players, they need to find a guy that can really lock down the perimeter. Or they need Dwayne Wade to return the form, or they need Derek Rose a step up. What I'm saying is it's generally a yin and yang. You know what I mean? You don't get both.

You get Isaiah Thomas. You get Damien Lillard. You get whoever, right? I mean, finding the guy that is amazing offensively and amazing defensively. I love John Wall. John Wall gets hung on every screen. Finding the guy that is the amazing two-way perimeter player. So at that point, you just got to settle for a specialist.

I'm not asking for that, though. I'm not asking for a star player that can do that. I'm asking for a guy who's a good defender who can also hit spot-up threes. That's all I'm asking for. Those guys are hard to find too. Yeah, I know. I know. I know.

I know I'm asking for a lot. Who is that? I'm just thinking, like, how can this team be as great as it can? can be. And that's what they're missing. I mean, those guys are hard to find. You know,

next thing you know, you're playing Robertson, and they're fouling them every damn time. He's got to go shoot free throws. Yeah. It's not easy. Three and D, they are super valuable assets.

Super valuable for certain. And, and, you know, when you think around the two guards in the league, right, whether it is, you know,

you can go from the, from the, all the way down, from like a redic or a, or a McCollum or a Beal to a Terrence Ross to whoever, right? I mean, it's just hard. It's hard to find guys that are going to be what you need them to be offensively and what you need them to be defensively.

And it's just a weird, it's a weird time for two guards anyway, right? Kind of a shortage of wings. Yeah, there is just this immense amount of the great players being either point guards or small forwards. Yeah. that's generally what is the case right now. Anyways, it would be interesting to watch Kevin. Who would have?

What was that? I guess it's the 07 or 08 draft. If you'd have told me we're going to look up in, you know, eight, nine, ten years, and Kevin Love is going to be starting at center for somebody. I mean, it's just how rapidly everything has changed. Like, that would have been, I'm telling you, NBA Scouts would have laughed you off the face of the earth. If you thought he was going to start at Senate, you would have thought it's because he never shred the way. He just gained more weight and he had to be a center.

But really, it's the opposite. He got super small. Yeah, I know. And he became a center. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're never going to believe this. But in the year 2017, Kevin Love is going to weigh 160 pounds, have gray hair and be playing center.

And be a big endorser for milk. What? Okay, the milk thing I can foresee. He got a serious glow up. Yep. All right. I do want to say before we get out of here today, it was just a few weeks ago that I just did it like off the cuff. I gave a shout out to the guys in Ireland that were listening to us.

And since then, over the course of the last couple of weeks, we've been flooded with people from all over. So I do want to give shout out time, right? These are ones that I'm sure you've seen all of these, but I've been trying to do my best to write them down or save it. So shout out to New Zealand. This is where people said I'm listening from, right? In the past week, we got New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, the Philippines, Barcelona, Turkey, France, the Netherlands. Let's see, Cardiff Wales. Let's see, another one in the UK.

We got Germany is on the map. Croatia, Peru, Hong Kong. Those are some of the ones. And then just recently yesterday, Pakistan checked in. So there we go. Wow. That's unbelievable. Unbelievable.

That's worldwide, dude. Unbelievable for sure. Thanks to all of you that are listening wherever you may be. Do us a favor and give us a rating and review on iTunes. Kevin, have an unbelievable week. I'll talk to you next Tuesday. You too, Chris. Have a good one.

All right. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. You've been listening to the Ringer MBA show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network.