The Ringer NBA Show - Nuggets Shock Thunder in Game 1 Victory. Plus, Knicks Defeat Celtics in OT Thriller | Real Ones

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

The Nuggets took Game 1 in Oklahoma City thanks to a late-game 3 from Aaron Gordon, but the big topic of discussion was whether the Thunder should have fouled when they were up three late in the game and Jokic was off the floor. Logan, Raja, and Howard Beck discuss that and whether they saw who the real MVP is during the game. The Knicks defeated the Celtics on the road thanks to 45 (!) missed 3s from Boston and some late-game heroics provided by the NBA Clutch Player of the Year, Jalen Brunson. Plus, what are they hoping to see from the Warriors-Wolves series? Is Ant primed to eliminate another legend? Finally, the mailbag! (1:43) Nuggets - Thunder (27:30) Knicks Celtics (49:51) 'Pack Watch With Jomi Adeniran' (51:38) Warriors - Wolves (59:54) Mailbag The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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gambling problem call 1 800 gambler or visit rgdash help dot com what's bobbing real ones Logan murdock here roger bell there Howard beck in the motherfucking cut cliff on the board 's victoria on the video guys the playoffs have been one word fuck or two words fucking awesome Like after last night, I think this is, I'm ready to go out on a limb. And I know Howard loves when I go out on limbs. But I'm going to say this is one of the best playoffs that we've had in the last decade or so, especially after in the last couple of years where the playoffs have kind of been, every series is, it has its own storyline and has its own level of excitement from the upsets in the Eastern Conference with the Pacers.

And we're going to talk about the Nixon in a minute. but I never know what's going to happen on a night-to-night basis. And I think that transitions perfectly into the first game we're going to talk about. Nuggets Thunder, which was just cinema in all ways, shapes, and forms. And it was capped off by Aaron Gordon, a three-pointer. But the game was won in the last three minutes. Let's get to the biggest story first. And I want to get Roger's opinion on this.

The biggest story out of this is the fouling up three. by the Oklahoma City Thunder continuing to foul while they're up three in the ball game. They did that twice in the last two minutes where they fouled Yokic up three. They get Yokic out of the game because he gets subbed out. And then they foul Aaron Gordon and then gets Yokch back into the game after another stoppage of play. And then you see Chet Holmgren missed two free throws. that he had wanted absolutely no part of.

And then we get to the Aaron Gordon's shot. Roger, my question to you is, where do you fall in the ledger of fouling that early? Because in my mind, conventional was you're up three. The worst they could do is tie the game, just to get this game over with. And it felt like the Oklahoma City unnecessarily prolonging the game in my view. What did you think of the call? Yeah. Well, I'm really confused because when you said we were going to come on here and talk about like the story of the series.

So far, I thought it was going to clearly be wrong. Russ. And so you got to do me for a loop. We went into like the Fallon situation. But I will participate. Um, no, I, all jokes aside. Um, not yoke is 40 and 20. We're talking about Russ, baby. No, but that's what he does. We're talking about where he gets credit. We're talking about Russ. Damn it. When are you starting the daily Russ update podcast with Roger Ball? That's in the works. Relax. That's in the works. Anyone listening if you need that. Um, yeah, yeah, you should look, man, I get it. He got up at the podcast. He got up at the podium and he doubled down on on on or dagnell is that how you say his name dagnell i say coach dags

that that's their philosophy and they stick with it but they were wrong for that like the time you know when you're when you're analytically driven um there's got to be someone there that that can marry the human element the the the situational like awareness element i've been here element with what you want to do analytically. And I'm not going to, they should work together. So I say that to say that if you're at like five seconds, six seconds, where there's not really time for the team that has the ball to get a second possession, you foul them, they foul you. And now they got like two seconds to get another shot off. I got it. But when you're talking about 13 seconds to go, like that's a lot of basketball that's going to go back and forth if we're assuming everyone's going to foul as soon

as soon as the ball comes into play. Not to mention that someone, anytime you're leaving a time out, someone should be preparing the team for the multiple scenarios, right? Like when we're coming out of this huddle, like, you know, if we get an easy bucket here and Yokic is still standing over on a sideline and we're up three again, we're not fouling.

Like, you know what I mean? Like if he goes to the line and makes both, you know, and Yokic comes in the game, you know, maybe we're back to it. But, but like, it didn't seem like they were really prepared for the situation. And someone has to be responsible for that. So while I understand that your philosophy, and I'm sorry for like taking up a bunch of airtime here, but like that's the wrong, that's the wrong play in that moment with that much time left

on the clock and the situation that was unfolding there, that was not the right way to approach that. He outbunk himself, huh, Howard? Possibly. It was interesting. So, I was reading this morning, Darnel Mayberry, from the. the athletic was at the game among their army that they think they had at the game. And when he, I don't know exactly how the question was posed, but he has these quotes early in

the story from Jalen Williams and Chey Gildes Alexander sitting there on the podium together where somebody had raised, maybe it was Dornell, maybe somebody else had raised the question about should you have stuck so religiously, essentially, to this philosophy of fouling up three, especially when the second one allowed Yokish to come back in the game. He'd been out because of foul trouble and, you know, fouling intentionally let him come back in. And I think that was the context for this quote, but where Jalen Williams says, damn, I didn't think about that.

And then Shea sitting right next to him says, me either. It's a good point. And I don't know if that was about the Yokic piece of it or about just the general, just whatever, the whole situation backfiring. but it seems clear that in real time, and by real time, I mean in the immediate aftermath in the game of the game, Dagnol might still be sticking to it and saying like, this is just what we do. And, you know, that's just how we're always going to approach it. We're going to be consistent. But as players certainly are kind of sitting there going, huh, maybe we didn't do this well. And then Caruso, who gives the foul on Aaron Gordon did it too quickly. And Caruso admits, you know, I probably could. to let him dribble a couple more times run off more clock. It just seems like, whatever, the pressure of the moment, the intensity of the moment, the desperate, not the desperation, but it's, it's like, it's tense.

Like you've just given away. They had like, you know, 14 point lead or whatever at some point in the third. And here it is. You're just trying to hang on. And are those brain farts by the coach, by Caruso, by everybody? I don't know. I'll leave the basketball, you know, strategizing to people who know it better than I do. But it does seem like they kind of gagged it. They totally fumbled the bag. And it speaks to, like, it's what we thought coming into the series could be an Achilles heel for them, right? Like,

I wrote, I wrote down, like, inexperience and unseasoned is what that seemed down the stretch of that game, right? And so again, 12 seconds to go, you're going to foul. The reason I don't like the foul there, and I'll just lay it out for you, is because there going to shoot a quick shot. They're going to try to get a shot up because they want a chance at that offensive rebound. Right? So even if they make that three, you've got the ball with a timeout in the front court with what? Six seconds to go. That's a lot of time for you to get the last shot in that game. The Alex Caruso one to me is really inexcusable. And I would argue with anyone that says, hey, fouling and allowing them to get their best player on the court is the sound and prudent move there. but I digressed. Overall, in the last quarter of that game, they had an inexperienced

unseasoned meltdown. There were multiple times that they fouled up. I don't know, was it nine or 10 with about three minutes to go in the game? They were sending Denver to the free throw line over and over again. Your best friend in that situation is the clock. It's ticking. You make them work. Even if Yolkich hits those tough-ass shots with seven seconds on the shot clock, come down and take 24 off of it. And it's very, very difficult for them to win that game unless you keep stopping the clock and giving them free money, which are the free throw points. Not only did they do it in the front court to Yokic multiple times, they did that shit 90

feet from the basket at least twice. Those are possessions that take zero time off the clock. Yeah. They just had a meltdown. Roger, and there were so many different intricacies to the points that you're making when you talk about a veteran-led group. Like, I was looking at the clips this morning, and then you see just such veteran savvy from not only the offensive rebounds that they got,

like Aaron Gordon getting like monster rebounds down the stretch and just fighting extra for the ball, but even little nuances like when Russ got the rebound and just stopped and got fouled, right? Just different things like that. And you could see that down the stretch of the game where that's where the nuggets have the biggest advantage. that they've been there before. And then you can't quantify that with data and analytics, the been there before this. And nuggets were so poised.

I think they were down nine with 243 to go. And if you're down nine with 243 to go, you have to be damn near perfect down the stretch in your offensive execution. And they were that and more, Roger. Do you know what you're, you know what they were, Logan, you're right. But do you know what you're praying for if you're down nine with 243 to go? clock stoppages free throws and free throws yes you're but that that is the clock stoppage right because just a general clock stoppage that's what that's the clock stoppage you want that's perfect i get to the

line i get two uncontested shots maybe three dependent on the situation and the clock is not running so like yeah they executed their behind off and at the same time like Oklahoma city just showed their their youth and inexperience in that moment that was that game was that game was over essentially are we also hold on all of this is is legit of course but are we also in the midst of all this are we selling short the fact that the denver nuggets defending champs or not defending champs but champs just two years ago and who we've all written off still have something left here like that they they took down the clips um Aaron Gordon with the miracle dunk obviously key in that series and then Aaron Gordon with this incredible three and like he's a capable three point shooter San Jose stand up San Jose stand up Come on. Thank you. Logan referencing a text chain from very late last night. No, I got a I got a cape from my San Jose guys.

There aren't that many of us around. Aaron Gordon may literally be the only San Jose born player in the league or Sound Zanasi Native in the league. But like tremendous, tremendous moment. And like the second one for Gordon and for the Nuggets, there's good reason that we have all kind of diminished them and written them off. and there's a good reason the Thunder have been favored since October to win the West. But in the midst of all of this and, you know, parsing Dagnold's coaching and intentional fouling strategies and philosophies and analytics and everything else,

like we should just need to take a moment to note the fact that that was an incredible comeback by the Nuggets from 14 down in the second half. And a great shot by Gordon who now has two just absolute awesome plays in this postseason. My bad. Yeah, I would, I mean, look, you're, you're right. You're right, Howard. They, they played great. They stuck with it. They kept hooping. They got big contributions. Like Murray carried them early. You know, this is what you want your co-stars to do, right? Like Murray carried them early. Gordon closed with, with Yokic late. Yolkich was phenomenal. You know, Russ was great. Brown played great. Watson, Peyton Watson. Is that his name? He's a nice length energy, like defensive piece out there. I got to give Adelman some credit the zone late for a team that doesn't have a true, like, like, Williams has to play better. Like he's just got to play better. But they didn't have a true.

That was the other thing we worried about with them a little bit. Like you would ask me this. I think, Logan, like, do I trust those guys in these moments? And I told you that I would. Well, you know, like last night, I gave me a little bit of pause until they, until someone redeems themselves. But the zone was a good thing. And the wrinkle that I loved about the zone

was that he put Jamal Murray in the middle of the zone. So like, you know, and the only answer that OKC had for the zone was to run the middle of their zone up and screen the outside of the top side of the zone. So like the top defender on Shea Jolges' right hand, they would screen the outside of that. theoretically if that's a big like if it's yokech or or even erin gordon they have to be in that kind of drop coverage which lets sGA kind of come off into a soft spot and you know he's a middy king so like

that's dangerous but he put jamaul murray in the middle of that zone and so now jamaal is coming up with the screener and it's essentially like he's standing right there as a switch which doesn't gain any advantage for sGA right and then he bumps back as the guard i thought that was brilliant like it was a little wrinkle i thought it was really cool so i have to give him some credit too. I'm going to say all of that and tell you, I still think OKC fumbled the bag. Like, I think that game should have been over. And I mean, most of that I feel like comes with the, I think Howard just talked about this, but what is the growing inevitability of a team like Denver in this sense? And despite everything that happened this season, they do have that institutional

knowledge and they have that institutional just grit, right? And a lot of dudes that have been there before. And that's what scares me about this series right now. Like what I wouldn't be like just seeing game one. I don't want to overreact here because Oklahoma City could very well win this series and their favorites to win this series. And quite frankly, they should win this series. But when I saw that game, Raja, I really was like, could this be one of those series where the Nuggets teach OKC a lesson and it could be a six gamer instead of like this where they do just take control of the series because they have that advantage as a veteran group, but not only a veteran group, you have a veteran group with a guy like Yolich who will talk about singularly

in a second, but they have that institutional knowledge that could probably beat an OKC who just hasn't been there before. Don't know what they don't know. Yeah, I mean, you could definitely make a case for that. You know, not just Murray, Gordon, and Yokic, but, you know, Brown, Russ has a bunch of experience. Like they have pieces over there. You could definitely make a case for that. Now, I'll just tell you this. If OKC can't at least make it competitive on the glass,

that's going to be a problem for them. They were minus 20 on the damn glass last night. That's crazy work. If, you know, if, so if Denver is able to keep the pace on the glass and take care of the ball a little better, like they gave up 23 off of turnovers last night. So, like, you're gifting a lot of those guys that we're worried about in bid situations offensively. You're gifting them transition points in a lot of instances because you're turning the ball over.

If Denver can control that and make SGA, like, have to do all the work and they don't get those others to show up, OKC, that is, there is a huge problem in OKC. Yeah. I'm fascinated. I'm just fascinated by the series already, but like that nugget right there of. You know, when it comes to this point of the postseason, really doesn't matter what record it is, how well you're playing in a given moment. And the nuggets seem to have a groove,

not the groove back, but a groove. Howard, I want to talk about Yucas really quickly. And just what this overall game means just, I'm thinking about, the first thing that comes to mind is obviously the MVP case. And that's already, and I don't want to relitigate that because that is already done and voted for.

and we'll see what the results are at a point in time and it kind of is what it is at this point. But is it possible for Yoke is just to be the most memorable player of this season? Like even if that's not an award necessarily, but that is a distinction nonetheless. Well, I mean, I think, I think, you know, our guy Bill Simmons has said at times that MVP to some extent is, you know, the guy who is the story of the season, who was the season about?

And, you know, it's one of a thousand ways we can frame the MVP discussions in real time and also sometimes retrospectively, right? And I think, look, let's put MVP to the side for a minute because it mucks up everything in terms of the way we discuss things anyway. Although, by the way, it does occur to me in the moment, and I do love chaos. If the Nuggets win this series and Shay, like, She is almost a certainty to win MVP, right? Like, Bon Temps' late season straw poll has not missed yet because it's the sample size of mostly the actual voters. Shea's going to win it. So it's going to be, you know, I think we're getting, what are the rewards are due this week, executive of the year. So I think like next week we're probably going to get MVP and all MBA.

And this series will surely still be going. And Shay's going to be announced his MVP. And are they going to be down in the series? Are they going to be on the verge of getting ousted by Yokic? Is this going to cause utter fucking mayhem with the MVP discussion all over again? Yes, of course it will. It will be hell to pay for everybody. Fine.

It'll be entertaining. But that's on the table for the moment. It is only one zero, but it's on the table for the moment. Yokish, in terms of him being the story of the season, I think when you're on a 50 win team, which is part of what tamped down his MVP support, it's hard to be the story of the season, even though what he was doing on a night-to-night basis and in totality was, was, as usual, historic and incredible and dominant. And there were just some absolute, just bat-hit crazy games and stat lines that he put up. And he had a phenomenal, you know,

first game of this series last night with, you know, 42, 22, and 6, and including a block shots. And against a front court that presumably was put together to try to slow him down. That was the point of the exercise of getting Hartenstein. So do your question, Logan, I'll put it this way. If the Nuggets win this series, turning the MVP discussion on its head, making us reassess the nuggets entirely, making us wonder once more, well, man, if Malone and Calvin Booth were so bad at their jobs, why are the nuggets going back to the conference finals with the team that Calvin Booth presided over and that Malone was coaching up until two weeks ago?

Is Rod just sending emails to the podcast now? Is he doing it? Are you doing the sending the ghost emails to the pod? But it's like I, for just whatever, narrative. purposes, discussion purposes, just fun to consider purposes. And your question, Logan, like, yeah, Yokic can make himself the story of the sea. Right now, the thunder have been the story of the season. 68 wins, likely MVP and Shea, breakthrough, fun young team, really super deep, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. If the nuggets upset them in this series, we will talk about this whole season very, very differently. And we will talk about the nuggets very differently.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I mean, what do I want to say? It's not really, well, first of all, I, I agree with you, Howard. I just don't think, like, look, we can't, I'm a big, don't move to go post on me guy. So, like, even if he beats, even if he beats, the regular season, like, look, man, you have 50 wins. Like, it is what it is. But I just, something just clicked into my head, which I thought was really, really interesting because I was processing what you had said, Howard, about, you know, Williams and SGA at the, at the podium answering questions. and it kind of took me back last night to a timeout, and it was on Denver's bench,

and Yokic was basically running the timeout. Not to discredit anything that Adelman was doing, right? But that's just his level of experience, know-how, and understanding of the situations that he had that all under control as the player. You know, coaches are still doing their job, but I get the sense that a lot of this is that's what's going on in Denver, like the players understand. The coach is still doing his job, but the players got it. They don't have to, and we're in a situation with the younger group with, with,

with, uh, okay, C where they are still kind of being led by the coach. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. They're just, their coach led at this point, right? Like, SG is the dude, but strategically, situationally, hey, what are we going to do when we get into into these minutes? It's a coaching thing versus, you know, once teams get to a certain point, yeah, the Coach is going to say it, but we already fucking know it.

Yeah. At what point, though, because that's a very interesting distinction, Roger. At what point do, does a player get to that? And should they, because I feel like if I look at Minnesota, for instance, like, I feel like Ant has more of a command on the offense where that quote just wouldn't come out of Minnesota. Whereas, like, here, SGA maybe is it, I don't know if it speaks to, and I'm speculating, if it speaks to his passiveness or what, but it's definitely a distinction that that is interesting.

Do you think that SGA needs to learn to get to that point? Or like, what does that say about the team if they're so, so coach-led? Because in NBA, it's usually a partnership. Yeah, I think that just speaks to being, being like less seasoned and less experienced, you know, in the moments. I don't have the stats in front of me, but Yokic has been doing this a long time and has been deep into the playoffs multiple times.

He's a champion. So, you know, that just comes with those experiences. I think to some degree, the fact that they ran up and fouled immediately. And Caruso was like, man, I should have let, they do know what they want to do as a team, right? Otherwise, he doesn't run up there and do that right away. That speaks to like, yo, we understand what we want to do. But situational awareness is a whole other thing, right? And understanding, like, you know, the nuances of being in a situation with 12 seconds versus

five seconds and do we like all of those come into play once you've been in those situations before and you've experienced them and you can start to shape your your understanding of what we do to produce wins versus what we do that created losses like we've all seen like moments where like you know lebron you know i mean there was the there was the the almost infamous one lebron like overruling david blatt or whatever right but like forget like that particular one but lebron and blatt LeBron and Tyloo, LeBron and whoever he's with at a given moment. Kobe was at this level and Jordan was at this level. And like so many of the all-time greats where you have the ability to push back at the coach

or just make the very emphatic suggestion in the moment or have the moment like you were referring to Raja with Yokic on the bench being really demonstrative and really like this is what we got to do. I couldn't hear the exact details of what he was doing. But it was clear like he's getting his guys together, getting them on the same page. And when you have a little bit more cachet, when you've been the guy. for a while. You know, Shea is about to probably get his first MVP,

and maybe they will win a championship, maybe they won't. But this time next year, Shea is going to have a different presence and a different just mental bank of memories, of experiences of things they've done and not done and whatever. And he will be different probably then. Like, he's clearly a forceful personality

and has imprinted himself on that team. So, yeah, at a different moment in his career and his timeline, he may be doing the same thing that we're talking about with Yokic and that we've seen again with Kobe, Michael LeBron, whoever, where you're saying, hold up, hold up, hold up. We need to not foul right away in this context. And you don't specifically have to say remember that time back in. Chill, respectfully, chill. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay.

Let's talk some, let's talk Nick Celtics. Any more does anyone want to say about this series that we're missing before we get? only just that in this case and in the conversation we're about to have in all of these cases, we need to not overreact, which we're going to do anyway. But we love a good game one upset. And we love a like there's nothing we, the collective public media fans, everybody do more predictably than every game is suddenly a referendum on everything until the next game when things flip around and then it's a referendum in the other direction. Totally. Yeah, OKC fans should, OKC fans shouldn't be in a panic. Like, again, like they had a, they had a real opportunity to close that.

You were sitting in a catbird seat. You just, I mean, you let it go. Sitting in the catbird seat. That's a bar. That's a Roger Bell bar, bro. That's one of the old dudes. Ah, to God. The Ringer NBA show was brought to you by Fanduel.

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Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG dash. help.com. Okay, let's talk Nick Celtics. Roger, when you hear 19 of 20 shots in the third quarter are three-pointers, what comes to mind? 45 missed threes. I mean, what comes to mind, sir? Like, you just, you just, yeah, man, I mean, look, I want to, I want to be, I want to be fair to them. I don't want to be a dude that completely overreacts to it.

But, like, it suggests that you just thought, like, because you were the Celtics, and you were the, you know, reigning champs, and you beat them every time you played them this year, that the game was over, and you just took your foot off the gas. That's what you did. Like, you just came out and you thought it was cake. You thought it was cute,

and you kind of fell asleep at the wheel in the third quarter. And before you knew it, they were on your neck. I mean, that's what it speaks to. I mean, that's outrageous. It's ass a nine, ass a 10, ass a 11, ass a 12. I said 13, maybe I said 14, 15. One thing that Chuck said, though, postgame that I want to get Raj's point on and then Howard's, he said that no team in the modern NBA has a plan B of action when there's no adjustments, right?

I don't, I think that was maybe an oversimplification, but in this case, I think it really was a good point to the Celtics where it seems like they're going to triple down on three pointers for better or worse. we've seen that over the last few seasons, how that's bit them in the ass. It was very jarring watching the Celtics down the stretch of that game because the lane was so wide open. You have Tatum on Kat, who, by the way, we're going to talk about his defense in a minute, which was a hoo. But you have the lane wide open and you just won't take it and you keep shooting yourself out of rhythm. When you hear the plan B argument, what do you think about that in the modern NBA? Is that this the Celtics thing over the last few years? Yeah, I think that's more a Celtics thing.

I kind of feel what he's saying. You know, I think that's, you know, that's a roster construction, the way the way guys are taught to play now kind of conversation. Like I think what he's referencing and Shaq usually references this because, you know, of what he was able to accomplish and who he was is that like if those aren't going down, we got to pummel, you know, we got to try to pummel the paint and get and get grimy in there. But like, they're not a ton of those guys anymore. So I think organically you're not going to have as many teams that can switch from the kind of pace and space and shooting threes to like let's go down on the block and get dirty.

Just because the amount of guys that can do that don't exist. Having said that, you know, so I don't all the way agree, but I see where he's coming from with that. There are teams that can do it, though. Like Denver's one of those teams that can do that. You know, Yolkich is crazy. Like Milwaukee at times can do that because of what Janus is. Like when you've got that force, the rockets, even though they don't shoot a great percentage, like, when they want to, they can, they can just get you into spots with Shangoon and let them go to work. There are teams that have the ability to do that. And this is where I thought Boston and where like Tatum and Brown, and this is going to sound crazy, where they can continue to evolve, right? Like, you're shooting all these threes and that's your style of play. And I'm not saying to you, hey, I definitively think you need to change it. I don't think they'll shoot that poorly again. Right. But there are times where, all right, we're not making these threes and we can't get to the basket, which is absurd, by the way, because Jalen Brunson, if there's one thing that we'd say he's probably lacking in, what would it be?

Defense. Defense. And you got that motherfucker on a switch multiple times and none of you went at him. He had four fucking bouts. It was so many stepbacks, bro. It was like, oh, I got Brunson on. I'm going to step back. Oh, I'm going to really get him with this step back. I'm going to really. I'm about to. I'm about to. I'm about to. I'm about to. I'm about to. my shit right now. But yeah. So there were so many of those and he had four fouls, right? But, but like where you could be better is like, don't give him the ball at the top with a live dribble. What do you think he's going to do if he already wants to do it? Like if he already wants to shoot a step back and you give him the ball at the top of the fucking key where there's a help defender on the right side and a help defender on the left side and Jalen Brunson's in front of him. What do you think he's going to do most of the time? It's going to shoot a step back. Get them to Shack's point in an area of the floor below the free throw line, whether that's, you know,

on the block or you got to pop to catch and you're, you know, roughly 15 feet away and make them work mid post. Make them work somewhere that gets them to the rim. You have to do that for them. And also, to be fair, though, Raja, Przingis was out of the game, who would be, who would theoretically be the one to punish them, right? Because they were dealing, I think they're, their only big was Al Horford. And Al Ford is like, Al Horf was like 87 years old and I don't think he's posting up and controlling the game. But like I think there's also another anecdote, just go to the cup. Like just go to the cup. Be aggressive.

But listen, Jalen Brunson, I mean, again, this is why I found it like a Jalen Brown tried to get to the cup. Like he had a tough move. You know, it was a tough miss late with the left hand. He thought he got out and he ran into the support. Like I'm not arguing whether that was a foul or not. But I liked the play. Like your head down getting on top of the rim. He does it for me like in a more timely way than Tatum does sometimes.

Right now you might say to me it's because he couldn't throw it into ocean last night and that might be true. But like he was putting his head down sometimes and going Jason Tatum couldn't get by Brunson. He tried multiple times and then he gets to the step back. So that's why I'm saying when I see that, I have to do something. There's got to be something and maybe this is what Shaq's alluding to. plan B from a coaching perspective, dog. Where I'm getting them touches isn't working right now.

So do I have anything to get these remarkable offensive players? Because they are remarkable. Touches in another area that might be more advantageous for us. And that was lacking last night. It's interesting the last couple of years under Missoula where the three-point discussion is just a constant, constant thing all the way through them winning the championship a year ago. And I think to an extent when you win it, it's like, you know what? Like, what do we get a question now?

Yeah, they seem overland on a Missoula seems, you know, for a guy who in so many other ways seems like very old school in his approach. Like he's obviously a younger coach. He is of this age and of this era. But like he is all in on the three point philosophy. And they've got guys who can make a ton of them. And it's not that they're just living and dying with the three. Like it's oversimplified.

I don't want to, you know, sound like Chuck and Shaq, who are still trying to live in the 90s most of the time. Like, this is the NBA today. And yes, you can win games, even teams that are not as great can win games sometimes just by like just drowning you in threes, right? But that's not what the Celtics do. They do take a lot of them. They do make a lot of them.

And they absolutely have the ability to beat you in other ways. But it is intrinsic to their success is volume three point shooting. It's possible for that to run away from you. And I think in that third quarter where 19 of it was 19 of their 20 shots were from three, like, all right, you've, you've lost the plot a little bit, especially when you do have other ways of beating this next team. On the next side of it, again, I'll do a quick pivot here to give credit to the team that just pulled the upset as we did with the Western Conference game too. Like, you know, Brunson, you know, decent game, but not one of his most dominant games over four and overtime. But like OG and Anobi shot the lights out. McHale Bridges didn't have a great shooting game, but like seven assists,

rips the ball away from Jalen Brown on that last play of overtime. Oh my God. I was so tight. That was some gangster shit. Timely three out of the corner, big three out of the corner. Yeah. Like the Knicks just made plays when they had to, which is kind of the story of their team, right? Like they're not the most dominant.

They're not the most talented or the deepest. But man, they got guys who just like bust their asses through. through every second of the shot clock on every play down to the wire and they'll pull out stuff like this. You know, the Celtics should absolutely still be favored in the series and I don't think we're going to see a repeat of last night. And they did gag up a 20 point lead. And I don't know how much of that. Like again, like these things go hand in hand psychologically, right? You're up 20. Maybe you feel more comfortable just being like drifting into threes instead of like being aggressively attacking, right? Raj is nodding his head. Like there's these things kind of go hand in hand.

I think the other thing, though, I think the other thing, though, real quick, Rajah, that I observed about the Celtics is, I don't think this is a hundred percent thing. But in the playoffs, occasionally, they get soft, man. Like, you've seen that against Miami in some ways. But like, if you punch the Celtics in the mouth and you get aggressive and you play that game, I think in some games you can get them. Like, I saw that down the stretch of last night where they did get a little soft. And you mentioned, Howard mentioned the ripple. way of Miles Bridges in the final game and the final possession. But overall, I continue to see this with the Celtics where they get into, they don't get aggressive. And then by extension, when they shoot those threes, they just inherently just get softer and softer. And a team like New York can take advantage of that. I don't necessarily enough to win the series,

but definitely get them on the Celtics on their toes and get their antennas up. if you the Celtics I mean you know they they're tough don't get that twisted but they don't project tough right like they don't give tough so like you you the Knicks have more dudes like that that strike you as like hard hat get it out the mud Josh Hart flying around like five offensive rebounds at six five against like monstrous human beings like they've got more guys that feel like hard hat type of guys. So that's why, you know, like, you know, that's why you can't, if you're the Celtics, you can't get in that type of game with them necessarily.

Like you, you know, you are the Ferrari to their like off-road vehicle. You want to play this game like out on the highway, dog. They're like an O3 Hummer, bro. Yeah, you don't want to be off-roading with these cats, right? And that's what the off-road and this would be like, staying in tight ball games down into the fourth quarter where you got, you know, the best closer in the game on the other team. And you could have figured out ways to put it away because you had opportunities to do. And let me just talk about the threes real quick. And I'm working through

this because I think it makes sense. And I'm not sure. Like not every three is created equal, right? I heard a stat that like 40 some of their three is were open three. So I'm not suggesting that they shot a disproportionate amount of contested threes, right? But there is a difference for me on a three, like if I give you the ball in the midpost like they do with Yokic or or Luca or somebody like that and it creates a rotation defensively and the ball pops out and now that ball starts moving around and that wide open swing swing to the corner, that three is a really good three. Like the basketball God smile on that three all the time. It's like cash. I was saying, watching the game last night with Ty. And like Ty's a young Hooper. And, you know, I'm trying to

teach him as we're watching and see what he's thinking about stuff. And, and the seas go cold. And there's like one play. I think it was, was it, was it, was it, uh, might have been Jalen. Somebody just said, might have been Drew Holiday. Fuck it. They put their head down and they drove the ball. No real plan. There was nothing there, except he pulled a miraculous pass out of his ass across the baseline, like baseline drive, baseline drift, and the basketball god smiled on that corner three cash. There's a difference between the seeking of the rim that creates a three and just the random wide open three.

And the reason I say that is because if you're seeking the rim, there's always an opportunity to finish at the rim. You might get gifted the layup in a few of those instances just out of your aggression and your bullheadedness. And also seeing the ball going into the basket of shoes for NBA players. It changes. Not just players but teams, Logan. It allows us to get another team into foul trouble in instances if we continue to put pressure on the rim.

And so I do think that while they might have shot wide open threes, I think there are other ways to create threes that you have to continue to play around with when you're finding that your original method of seeking three. isn't bearing fruit. And that's just, you know, that's just the way I feel about it. God damn it. That was beautiful, Roger. That was awesome. No, I mean, thank you.

But I think it's real. Do you? You dig what I'm saying, right? I do. I do. We're going to just cast around like, okay, we're going to run this light action at the top. We're going to get a drop.

But that's what I mean soft, though, Roger. That's what I mean when I'm saying, like, the Celties get into this, this, this too pretty type of mentality, right? where it's just like, oh, we're just going to, we're going to, it looks, it looks great to shoot a lot of threes. It looks awesome to, to be in this type of bag and just try to figure things out. And then you got somebody punch you in the fucking mouth. And that's what the Knicks did. And that was what was impressive about it is that they didn't get to get away with being soft in this series, right? Like,

if you did that against the magic or you did that in an earlier round, you can get away with stuff like that. And I just, I think when you talk about basketball gods, I'm really excited that the basketball God's gave us the Knicks who were like, uh-uh, nah, fuck that. You're going to have to earn this and you're going to earn this series. They went out and got Ananoi and Bridges, Joshua, like, they got them for this type of stuff, right? For the Celtics, right? They got them for these games. Like, we got guys that can guard your wings. Ananoi was phenomenal, by the way. Having said that, they weren't a great defensive team all year. Like, they hung their hat on offense. Yeah. Right? And so, all I'm saying is like, all right, let's say that, boom,

they're going to spring to life defensively and Adanobe's like locking down Jalen Brown and we've got Tatum under control. But when we get that switch and we get Brunson, it's got to be Luca-ish. Like when they got,

when Minnesota got Luca, what'd they do? When they got them on the switch, what'd they do? Did they settle for threes? Fuck no. Going to the cup. They got downhill. And the Celtics need to take the same approach. Look, dog, like, we're going to shoot all these threes.

I got it. If I get that motherfucker on this switch, we are going at that. What is this next team showing you, Howard? You know, it's funny because Raja just mentioned it. For the season, it's not like they were a great defensive team. I think they were maybe middle of the pack. And they kind of inverted from last year where it was like defense, great, offense, okay. And then this year because of the, largely because of the changes that they made, right?

They lost Hartnstein to free agency. They make the trade for Kat. They make the trade for Bridges who's supposed to prop up their defense or bolster their defense. But Bridges, I don't think was great defensively for much of the season. And, you know, around the Nets, he wasn't considered to exactly be the same defensive player before that trade. But it's the postseason. And they've got another gear. And that tends to be the case.

And you kind of expect with the Tibbs team it's going to be the case. This is a grimy. They've shown their griminess over and over again. So I don't think we should be shocked. But yeah, you know, this is why you got Bridges. You wanted to pair him with Ananobe and the two of them plus Hart gives you, you know, three guys who can all defend multiple positions who are known if, you know, in Ananobe's case, known for elite defense. In Bridges' case, known at times for being a top shelf defender. And in Hart's case, just known for like busting his ass regardless. And, you know, it shows up in moments like this, right?

And that's the thing. Like the Knicks, they were kind of hanging their head on offense this year. But Kat, as we'll get to, I think, here in a second, that was all over the map in the first round. He was kind of, he was fine last night. But it's not like he's dominating offensively. Like, they're kind of having to revert back to the thing. They need a win defense. When Tatum gets matched up to on Kat defensively,

or vice versa, a little tear comes down my eye. Like, I just, it's, it's like I'm about to pour out some liquor, man. Like, it's, he's either going to foul him. You're going to get, Kat is going to have a really tough series here because he's going to get switched on to one of the great guard, or great forwards on the Celtics. They're going to go to the cup on him, and he's going to foul.

He got in foul trouble last night. And so that's what really concerned. He is a fatal flaw. With Brunson, keep the same. If you're the Celtics, you don't know, keep the same energy with Brunson. And so to that, when a defensive lead even hurts even more, Roger, because your two best offenses are defensive liability. So, like, you just have, you're basically playing three on five in most

instances in this series unless you take cat off the floor and maybe you stagger minutes between those two. So you have that offensive punch or something. But, like, it's going to be really tough when you put both of those guys on the floor. Unless the Celtics shoot 60 fucking threes. Also in play. You know, like, but no, I mean to, sorry, Howard, I know you probably finish your point there. No, I'm good.

I'm good. Yeah, I just look, the Celtics, I mean, the Celtics, the Knicks are, are a very interesting team in that they, they don't, I don't think you would look at them if I was on, and maybe I'm wrong. Again, I'm not on a roster clearly. But I don't think there's someone I would look at going into a series and be like, oh shit, this is. all right, I just wouldn't. Like, you know, especially if I was on a team like the Celtics, obviously it's going to depend on the level of team I'm playing on, right? But if I were the Celtics, I would not feel that way.

The problem is if you get into that street fight with them, if you're off-road and with them, if you are getting it into their wheelhouse in terms of griminess and pace and your shot selection, it allows them to live in a way that gets you to, point late in the game where, look, that little, that little dude is, and I don't mean, I mean, he's probably six, two, I don't know it, but he looks a little probably like I did on TV. It is unconscious what he does late in games. It doesn't matter if he's, if he's three for

17 up into that point or, you know, 12 of 14, it doesn't matter. When that thing comes down late, that Joker bakes big buckets. And if you don't have to, you don't have to be a little bit of, have a dude on your squad that does it like he doesn't. And there are very few that do. It put you in a really, really messed up spot. It gets real scary real quick. So they don't look like much, maybe early. But if you let them hang out and drag you into that kind of game and then he got the ball late, time to worry. Man, it's so great watching Brunson. He's like a Hooper's Hooper, Hooper. He's like the Fife Dog of the NBA, you know, where he just, you could tell he was watching a better basketball DVDs, you know, he is, you know, I'll talk about it. You know, I'll talk about it.

Rauer and they was doing all the dribbling drills. He bought the fucking scammy ass shoes that had the extra soul on the bottom to make you dunk. Strength shoes. You know what I mean? But you see all of that in the fundamentally sound play that he has and just how calm he is down the stretch, right, of games. Like we were talking about, remember that Lakers Knicks game at Crypto earlier this season? The game he got injured before that, the types of shots he was making. Brunson is so incredible.

I didn't have a point other than that, but just to say that I think Brunson is incredible. I mean, he could have won this in regulation. Like, that was a very makeable shot. That was a great play. It was a very difficult shot, but it was a very difficult shot, but because it was Brunson, we're like, that's probably going in. Yeah.

It's funny too, because, like, if you think about it, like, he smiled after the buzzer there. He never smiles. Like, that dude shows no emotion on the court, like in either direction. He is as stoic as it gets amongst, stars. Although I guess I should make an exception here, given that they're playing against Jason Tatum, who is about as emotionless and stoic as it gets to. But like, that's a person. Jason Taylor's a person. He's not a robot, the AI generated robot. I cannot confirm. But,

but Brunson rare, like the expression rarely cracks. You don't read, you can't read anything into what that dude is feeling or thinking in a game. And that was a good look he got, you know, tough-ish shot, definitely what he could make, and they could have ended it right there in regulation. And he just, it was interesting, just seeing him smile after that because like you just, even in wins, you rarely see that dude crack a smile. Yeah. It's going to be interesting. And I'm, look, here's the deal. Do I think the Celtics are going to do that again, shooting the ball? Absolutely not, right? So from that perspective, I still feel like the Celtics are are in control of this and will, will win this. Having said that, the next. The next,

Knicks did not play great. Like, they did not play great. Like, so, like, if I'm looking at it from the other side, like Brunson didn't play great. I mean, Anonobe did, but, like, Kat didn't play great. Like, there were a lot of things that you could point to to suggest, like, they just got a dub in a game that they didn't play very well. So, like, it's really going to be interested.

Welcome back to Packwatch with Jomi, who was ready to make you feel worse about your team than you already do. What is up, real ones? You know who it be, Jomey. back with another pack watch. And I know I had to say goodbye to my lake as last time. But this time, I have the great pleasure of packing up the clippers, baby. Here's the thing.

This is not new. We are neither new to this or untrue to this. This is standard practice. Every single year, we are told that the clippers are the next new thing, baby. This is their time. This is their year. And guess what? They go out and embarrass it in the playoffs.

That's just what they do. That's who they are. Right. There's always a little bit of different stuff. Ooh, maybe a James Harden choke. You know, he used to be Paul George. The whole thing. This meant something to me.

Okay. As somebody who's been sick of the bump enough to Clipper Trump, the fact that we are finally here, we can finally put to rest the Clippers championship aspirations. Oh, oh my chest. I feel like a weight is lifted off my shoulders, ladies and gentlemen. That means something of me. James Hardin, I know what you are. You're a playoff choker. That was enough, Kauai, brother. Might be time to go home and be a family man, right? This whole thing reeks. It might be like eternal packwash. They might be cooked for a fit.

But it makes me happy inside. Really? That's all that matters. And that was Jomey I Dinner on with the Packwatch. Let's do 10 minutes really quickly on Warriors Bulls real quick. What's your favorite storyline going into this, Roger? Like, what do you want to see? There's so many there. What is the thing that you're like, this is what I'm here to watch?

I mean, the petty, the soap opera stuff, like the... You're not petty, Roger. You don't get into this. Like, I mean, I can tell you that I want to watch, you know, Draymond and Rudy, you know, I want to see. There are things that I want to see, but I think what's going to be the most interesting to me is going to be how does, like two things. How do Minnesota, how do they approach Steph in terms of continuing the physicality

that Houston brought to the table? Is that their game plan? Do they think, okay, you know, Steph didn't have a phenomenal series. had phenomenal moments in the series, but like for large stretches, it was proving to be like fruitful, right? Like is that? And then how does Golden State deal with the size and the length of, of Minnesota? Like, how do, how do they, how do they counter that? I think, I think those would be the two things I'm looking for in the series. Howard, me and you talk about this prepot offline yesterday, how much did you believe that

that went over the rockets in Game 7? When I say believe, I mean, how much did you believe it's actually going to be a catapult to better vibes in Golden State? Or was it just they got out of the series finally? And this is a bad omen for the coming series against the wolves. Yeah, if the Warriors were even three years younger,

five years younger. Battling the rockets to a game seven, fine, okay, look, that was a really impressive way that they, grinded this out. And yeah, the rockets were hard to put away, blah, blah, blah, but they got out of it. I just wonder at this stage, given the ages that they are, if there's much left. Like, they had to go to a really tough, like, mentally,

physically, emotionally grueling series, and then have to go straight from Houston to Minneapolis. Can't even go home first. I assume they didn't go home first. They flew straight back. They flew straight to Minnesota and only had a day off. Yeah. And so you've got no time to turn around.

You're stuck on the road for multiple days. That's tough. It's tough under any circumstances and they are an older team. So I would have felt better about the Warriors' chances in this series. And I'm not ruling them out by any stretch. But if they had closed this out, you know, after going up 3-1, if they'd close it out in five or even six, as they probably should have, you'd feel a little better if they'd gotten some recovery time,

but they didn't. And the things that make them still really dangerous at this stage, aside from obviously just Steph's talent, Butler's talent, Draymond's D, is the fact that we've done this before. There's nothing we haven't seen, nothing we haven't done, nothing we haven't been through, and you haven't. Well, that's easy to say when you're talking to or beating Houston, and not entirely the same against the Timberwolves

who were in the conference finals last year, are grown up before our eyes. And there's a lot of big game experience there. Anthony Edwards just outplayed Luca and LeBron. And Logan and I were talking about this yesterday too. Like when you talk about the ascent of a young superstar who's trying to make his mark and say it's my time now, you go through Luca and LeBron, granted it, 40-year-old LeBron.

And a not-in-shape Luca who just got to the Lakers a couple months ago, whatever. But still, you went through one of the greatest players. Luca been out of shape Anthony Edwards' whole career. So I don't want to use that as an excuse. But you went through a legend in LeBron and one of the best players on Earth today in Luca. You now have the chance to go through again, older, but it doesn't matter. If you are the one to knock out Steph, Draymond, Jimmy Butler on what may be their last or among their last chances, like those are nice stepping stones. Those are nice little markers for Anthony Edwards. And you know he's

looking at that. You know, like, we've talked about this too. Like every series he goes into, it doesn't matter who's on the court, he's like, I'm the best guy out here. That's the way he carries himself. That's the way he believes in himself. So it's a big moment for him. But there's, man, there's so many subplots in this series. Dremont and Rudy Gobert's history and, you know, Jimmy Butler back to Minnesota, given the way things ended up. just slightly messily there for him. Hasn't played in Minnesota since November of 2021. How is that even possible?

Really? That's wild. That's why. People haven't ever seen it, by the way. Plug for my old buddies, the Malamuts who made Game of Zones. Go back, go to YouTube and pull up the Jimmy Butler episode of Game of Zones. Jimmy Butler on the Wolves episode of Game of Zones. I'm going to post it later to Blue Sky.

That's an all-timer. It is one of my favorites. It's so fucking funny. Just epic stuff. But anyway, Jimmy back to Minnesota is a thing. Like, there's a lot. Like, nobody's left from Jimmy's time there, but it doesn't matter. Like, the fans that are going to, you know, be all over him.

If I'm a warrior fan, you know, the concern level is at an all-time high for my team. Because of all the things that Howard just stated. And there's also, we didn't talk about this, but like the Jarmond factor, like he has not been good over the last couple of weeks. I mean, just from the flagrants to the defense, they're actually starting him at the five right now, Roger, every game, which shows you, like, how bad the length is with Golden State. I just, I want to believe that they're going to, they can pull this out just because, like, I've seen them do this before. But man, that game seven against Houston, it was like, it didn't make me feel like, oh, yeah, this is great. And they tried to like manufacture some like excitement.

I think Draymond got caught on television saying, surprise, surprise. And it's like actually you didn't surprise anybody that you were doing what you were supposed to do way too late. And I just don't see it with this Warriors team. And I could be proved wrong. But I feel like this Minnesota team just has a is on a mission. And aunt is just become a different dude. I don't, I don't. I don't.

I think this maybe goes in five or six for Minnesota, Rob. I could definitely see that. I could see five or six for Minnesota. I could see more six than five, I think. I think if I'm being fair for the reasons you just kind of said. I, there's just pedigree and DNA and pride that, that would always give Golden State at least a slight puncher's chance in my opinion, right? Like, I would never rule them all the way out to get steamrolled except.

like I said, not all three-pointers are created equal. Not all seven-game series are created equal. And the one they just came out of was a football-like seven-game series. It was physical. There were collisions. There were targeting. We said it was going to get their ass kick no matter what. No matter what.

They were destined. If that thing lasted and stretched, it was going to be punitive. It was going to cost them at some point. And I would agree with you. it's going to, you're going to start to see it. Like, Houston didn't get to reap the benefit of it, but I think Minnesota will get to reap some of the benefit of the investment made by Houston. Yeah, there were a lot of games that I saw in that Houston series.

It was like, why are the rockets up 15 right now? They should be up 15 right now. Yeah, they just could put it in a hole at times. Yeah, and I think those times where we say, the times we were asking, why aren't the rockets up, the Minnesota Timberwolves will actually be up 15. you know and so we'll see what happens

man I'm really excited for this series let's get to the motherfucking mailbag Cliff question for you you're a big Siza fan like me and Victoria do you think that listening to Siza would make you want to commit a flagrant foul wait why would it make me want to commit a flavor foul Sizz is so peaceful and nice

dancing around the stage He said that he listened to Siza in him before game 7 and immediately Wait, what? Wait, Dreymy credited Cizzes for his crashout?

Did you not hear this? Did you not hear this? No. No. He didn't credit for the crashout. What he said was, man, you know,

throughout the series, I was listening a lot of Pock, a lot of checkout time, a lot of, a lot of, you know, just hardcore music. And then before game seven, he listened to CISN,

90s R&B, and still got a flavored foul. So I'm asking you, and your pickup games, could you think you could commit a friggin' foul while listening to the century voice of our beloved Lana. Man, if Jermon don't stop the BS, man, just know that that's just base level,

Dremont, he's going to do whatever he wants to do. It don't matter who he's listening. Bro, you can listen to Beethoven. He'll crash out and find somebody. Like, it does not matter who he's listening to. Drayman is that crazy, yo. But you want to get to a mailback question here? Let's do it.

All right. This is cool. This is name called. I'm reading this for the first time. So Kowad Truth from Tommy Statler. In that time, y'all, see. Uncle walking down the Spotify Hallways. Can you remind me him while he's wearing his clippers shirtsy,

sipping his Lakers Haterate, that Kau Islanders 0-1-2 versus Jamal Murray, most overrated players since of Vince Carter Instagram real. Tommy, Tommy Stadler. Is there any truth to that? Wait, what? Is he saying Kauai's overrated? Yeah, he said Kauai's over-2 versus Jamal Murray. Can we want to have the Kauai discussion right now?

Howard. I won two finals MVP's what are we doing he's older he's he's he's got a thousand injuries if you were gonna make the case to be an asshole if you were if you were make the case that he you know be an asshole about it you could say you know that finals MVP was guarding a guy that you know scored average 30 and on 50 and 40 um in the series so you know this or you could you could bring up the injuries you could bring up the you know the choke

that just happened right here's a lot of if you wanted to hate on kawai it's very easy case to do it. That's all I'm saying. If you wanted to, in which case, if you want to, you're kind of a dick. So what we're really saying here, why are you going out of your way to try to, like, tear down a guy who's with a two-time finals MVP and has had one of like, when healthy, an incredible run? Like, LeBron, Steph and Kevin Durant are the guys who kind of like define the last 10 years or so, right? Like when you count up who's won all the MVP's, all the championships, it's, it's LeBron and Steph primarily, KD significantly. And then Kauai's the other guy who even belongs in that sentence, which is like an incredible feat unto its own, right? Like, these are

all-time greats. Steph LeBron and Katie are going to be wherever you want to put them in the pantheon, top 10, top 10. Is Kauai Omar? Kuai Omar? Yeah. So shot down on his prime? It's Kauai Omar. You want to get to the second question here? Let's do it.

Is it time to take the overpaid label off, Mikhail Bridges? This is from Ernesto Ortiz. What's good, Real One's big fan. A lot was made about the amount of first round picks the Knicks gave up for Bridges, but I believe this dude's durability should be studied. Not only the record-breaking amount of games he's played in a row, but also the amount of minutes he logs in. In this era of NBA where injuries and low management are an issue,

Mikkel seems like a rare breed, and in my opinion, that loan is worth two or three first round picks on top of his talent. I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Much love, Ernesto. Go ahead, Howard. Yeah, Howard. You got it, buddy. I don't think anybody doubted at the time that the Knicks made the trade for McHale Bridges

that he was worth getting, that at his best, he's a really valuable player, partially for his defense, partially for, I think, his ball handling, playmaking, whatever. Like, he's a good, versatile play. player. The overpay accusation was about how many picks they gave up to get in, which I'm trying to find as we're talking here. I believe those four and some pick swaps in there, Howard? Yeah, it was a lot. I mean, it was a lot. And I think even in real time, people question whether that was an overpay. The things we don't know. And it's, we do this all the time with trades, especially blockbusters or ones that cost a lot of draft capital or whatever. We don't know what it's

like in the room, right? You don't know at what point, you know, who's bluffing, how far were the Nick's willing to go or how much did the Nets demand? How much could you have talked them down to? Was there another team out there that was potentially in the running and was and was willing to give up as much? I mean, you just don't know. So the leverage in the negotiations and the back and forth were not privy to. And when teams talk about these things after the fact, they lie their fucking asses off. So you can't rely on that either. It's so look, they paid what they paid. If it results in the next, you know, getting to the conference finals, great, you'll have been to a place that you haven't been in 20-something years.

If you get to the finals, if you so want to someone, I won a championship. And Bridges has years to go and the other part of it, he's on a reasonable contract. You know, we'll be able to judge it in retrospect. As of right now, have they gotten what they wanted out of it, out of that trade? By and large, yes, I would say. and with, you know, many games to go here potentially and years to go. So it's too soon to know for sure how to judge that. The only question really is, could you have gotten him for less, how much less? And again, if we're not in the room, it's hard to judge that. Boom. That was great, huh? Also, I don't know. I don't know if Jalen Brunson takes that pay code, too, if it isn't for McKeel Bridges to go over to the Knicks. Yeah. Which is his man. So final one. This is from Chris Thomas. watching Amen Thompson doing what he did in the third quarter. My friends tried to ask, what is his comp?

I said T-Mack without a jumper. What do you guys think is his ceiling is? And is there a player who A-Men remind you of? Can I? Okay, I will say one. And I just hated on him just for the sake of haters in general. But like, could he be like Kauai first two years? That's been my thought, yeah.

Yeah, we're like he's a guy that needed to develop a game but had all of the raw talents. Like you think about Kauai when he came out of San Diego State. If you look at the eclipse of Kauai coming out of San Diego State, his jumper was ugly as shit. He could, but he could rebound his ass off and he could play in transition. And those were the two tent pole things that you needed to be able to do. I think of that Amman is able to develop an offensive game and work really, really hard

over the summers the next three or four summers and develop that game. I think Kauai is a good cop. Yes and no, I only like it because Kauai turned into something offensively that you really didn't see early. But I think he's more polished amen at this point than Kauai was. That's fair. I think he's more polished if that's even possible because he doesn't really shoot it. But like he's really, really slick with that ball. And, you know, once he's in the lane and in transition and some of his finishes are.

are crazy, man. He, yeah, I mean, I actually, it's gonna be really fun. It's gonna be really fun to see, because I don't hate Kauai, right? Kauai still played a, like, even when he played at his best, it was a really mechanical looking game.

You know what I mean? Like, it was brilliant, but it was like really kind of stiff and mechanical when he hit shit, like crazy shots. But this dude's like way more, like, it's got way more flow to him when he moves. And, and, uh,

His burst is crazy. I'm trying to think, man. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have a good one, man. Like that would be T-Mack D. Rose-ish. Like, if, like, I'm trying to, like, put together a package of people who he moves. Like, he's a little bit of Vince, a little bit of, a little bit of D. Rose, a little bit of T-Mack. When you see him kind of coming down when he's comfortable and confident. Yeah, I don't know. I'd have to think about that longer. I don't hate, I don't hate. I don't hate. I don't, I don't I don't hate Kauai, but I do think he's got a more flow to his game, more like... Bro, did you see that move that he made in the lane in game seven where he had the ball up, like, on his right ear and then got that shit through three defenders and flicked it on the other side for a layup? Unreal.

It was nuts. Unreal. Is that the one that he went behind the back on? Like, he kind of skipped through it. I think so. And then was like, that shit's unreal, bro. It's fucking crazy, man. His hit?

Look, that cat's... ceiling. I know what this, I know what it's going to sound like. If that cat can skill up and has the type of skill transformation that Kauai had, he fuck around to be the best player in NBA. Ooh, that's why he's, no, honestly. Because Kauai's, Kauai became almost unguardedable, like from with, with, with shooting and mid, mid post. If you put that with what that cat has physically and the length and stuff, he could be. That's, that. Zach and I, Zach and I had this discussion yesterday on his pod about like like a man is the guy who like he's the one guy on that roster I think who was absolutely untouchable right can't trade him question about yeah what about uh shangoon though trade shangoon in a heartbeat

yeah I'll go ahead I'll get to your point but I just need to do a ran on shangoon man can this dude just finish around the rim in an important moment please you're gonna hurt Michael penis feelings Logan his his his feelings has been hurt enough this season he'll be fine he's used to it Don't make bad decisions. But geez, every time I saw Shangoon miss a shot, if you took a shot every time Shangoon missed a point-blank shot, you'd be as drunk as Rosam on a Friday night right now. No. It was Saturday night this weekend, but tusha.

What do you got? My son's 18th birthday, Barty, bro. Fucking right. Living life. Howard, I want to hear what you were saying. I know, funniest thing ever was the fucking live show. But Rod's like, I don't know if I want to take tequila, man. I don't know if I want to do it.

And then 30 seconds later, fuck it. Let's go. Pressure is a mofo, man. I'm interested, Howard. What were you guys talking about in regards to like to? Just. Yeah, no, just that like a men's upside is is so crazy high. And now, listen, like, we talked about this in the context of like, do the rockets make

the move now? Do you, do you chill and just let these guys keep growing? When do you, when do you do the all in move? you consolidate? Because they've got a lot of really interesting young players and they've got all those sons picks. Like, when do you do the consolidation trade? And like this summer, there's a lot of guys who could potentially be available and you don't do it for just any of them if you do it at all. But like, you know, and if it's KD, there's qualifiers because, uh, short window because of his age. If it's book who like, you know, the sons insist to the end of time, they're never going to trade

Devin Booker. But if Devin Booker's available, okay, there's a different consideration there. You've got a longer window. And then there's Janus, two-time MVP, 30. 31 years old, whatever, plenty of dominant years left. Is a men Thompson still untouchable in that scenario? Like, it gets interesting, right? But he's the one guy. And it's all due respect to Alpern Shengun, who's a very good player. And definitely was overmatched in this series against, you know, Dramon couldn't do anything against him. But Dramon's Dremond, and it's Shengun's first time in the playoffs, give the guy a little bit of grace, although I did declare yesterday on Zach's pod that Julius Randall is a better player at this stage than Shengu, which he is.

How are you going to tell me to not break pain his heart and then you go ahead and do it yourself? Don't trust me. We've been texting this morning again because of all this. So I just think that Thompson, the first guy I thought of earlier this season, Logan, was exactly the same. Kauai. And not because they feel identical, but there's a little bit of build, like a little bit of strength and length. And like, like, Kauai's got that huge upper body. if it was as quite as powerful in his earlier years, if he built that along the way.

But Amend Thompson has that combination. Like, he's explosive as hell. Like the Vince Carter reference that Raja just made. Like, that's that part of it, I think, is that explosiveness and the finishing. But yeah, he's already a defensive beast, one of the best in the NBA. And the offense is already ahead of, I agree with Raja, already ahead of where it was at this stage for Kauai. The potential for him to develop all of that, the three-point shot, the feel for the game that allows you to be a great facilitator and passer. Like, it could all come. And if it does, the guy's going to be an MVP discussions for a lot of his career. And that's the kind of guy you don't want to trade at this stage. And that's why it

gets really interesting if Janus ends up available. And if there are discussions there, because if you're the Bucks, that's the first dude you're asking for. Oh, those sons picks, those are really nice. That's great. By the way, amend Thompson. We're not doing it without him. And then if you're Raphael Stone, it's like, we'll give you Jalen Green and Alpern Shangoon. You want Atari-Eason? Like, it gets, it gets interesting. You want to Barrie Smith Jr. instead? If it's me, I'm trading every every guy on that roster is available other than Thompson. I'm like, Jailen Green. I'm not, I'm not worried about party with. Shangoon, very good player, but I'm just not sure that the ceiling is, is high enough.

A man Thompson man. That guy's, he's the epitome of skies the limit. You see what happens in the game sevens. That's when the real players and the real leaders actually come into the fold. And going into the series, if you were to look at the Rockets, you would probably say, who's the guy on that team? Maybe it's Jalen Green, right? Maybe he's like the guy that's supposed to be the guy.

And, you know, he tried. I saw it early in the series. He tried to be that guy. And by the end of the series, it was very clear it was our men Thompson's team. Like, this is his group. They're going to go where he goes. And that's just that. And so can't wait to see what the Rockins are next year.

I was so happy to watch them. It was very grateful to be able to be watching that series. It was really cool to see these guys blossom, even in a loss, Roger. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah. And just to add to that, that's always going to be a separator, right? Level of play, level of situation, opponent's ability.

Like that becomes a separator of talent and players, quite frankly. So like the ones that can will continue to rise to the, to the occasion. And the real ones will continue to rise to the occasion. That's been another edition of the show. I'm your caddy, bro. I walk around just tea in the ball up for you, bro. You just come through it. Like, I got you.

Love you, buddy. Got you. Thank you. Thank you so much. We will see you guys on Friday. It will just be me and raw. In the meantime, real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.

com. Real ones mailbag at gmail. It is going to be an awesome playoffs. and we are trying to give you awesome episodes. So tap in. We'll see you guys on Friday. All this shit. Shout out to Victoria.

Shout out to Cliff. Shout out to Howard. Talk to y'all. All this shit. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. We're 18 and older and present in D.C.

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