The Ringer NBA Show - Officially the Offseason: Coaching Carousel, Team Building, and the Draft for Dummies | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 14, 2020

Justin, Rob, and Tjarks are joined by The Ringer’s Kevin O’Connor to talk head coaching rumors (0:39) and potential offseason moves for teams around the league (14:13). Then Tjarks goes through his Draft Guide for Dummies (53:33). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Jonathan Tjarks Guest: Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Justin Verrier and welcome to group chat on today's episode. Kevin O'Connor joins us to talk about some rumor mongering. We're heading into the offseason. So we're going to talk about teams who are intriguing this offseason, players who are intriguing, and we're also going to get into some latest coaching news and rumors. And then after that, Charks is going to walk us through an idiot's guide to the NBA draft. All that and more on group chat. Group Chat, the ringers weekly NBA group discussion where we talk about everything from building an effing

wall to Patrick Williams. I am Justin Verger, joining me today, as always, in this post-finals edition of the group chat. Jonathan Sharx. What's up, guys? I'm excited. We have a special guest slumming on our humble little podcasts. We do. We also have Rob Mahoney. Hello. And that special guest, you may know him from all of his ripping guitar solos on Twitter, also from the ringer and the Ringer podcast network and all the other Ringer platforms. It's Kevin O'Connor. What's up, buddy? What up, y'all. I've done pods with you, Justin and E-Charks, but never with you, Rob. I'm excited to be here with you guys. Thank you for having me on. It's a new day. We're just breaking new ground here. Yeah, totally. Let's just jump right into it. Kev, let's pick up where you probably left off yesterday with the mismatch. Just talking about some of these head coaching rumblings that are going on across the league. Let's start with Stan Van Gundy, our guy. The alt van Gundy is now getting some love in the coaching hiring process. You said, on mismatch and Woge later reported that SVG is one of the finalists

for the Pelicans' job. What do you think about that? Like how far along do you think they are in that process, Kevin? Like, what do you think about that fit in general? So, I mean, they met yesterday and it remains to be seen what direction New Orleans is going to go. There was rumors weeks back

that their number one target was still in the bubble. People didn't know if that was Ty Lou or Jason Kidd or I guess apparently, or Stan Van Gundy. And there are still rumors out there that Jason Kidd is also one of the leaders for that position as well with New Orleans. But Stan Van Gundy being in there, it seems that there is a strong possibility that we both get. We get both Van Gundy's coaching in the NBA next season.

No more broadcasting, perhaps. So I know things didn't end great for Stan in Detroit, but I feel like he's kind of underrated on this coaching market. Charks, what do you think about that fit for him in New Orleans? I mean, it's hard to really evaluate Detroit because he was coach and GM. And we've seen that just doesn't really work anymore. So that's just kind of a punt. I think if you're hiring Stan, it's just a matter of how can he relate with Zion? Who's the coach that's going to get Zion motivated that help him to grow on and off the court?

Is Stan too old for that? I don't know. Like, I would think personally, I'd want more of a Taylor Jenkins type in New Orleans. But they're a better judge of that than me. It's all about personal relationships, I think, for that job. Yeah, the one thing with the New Orleans job, I think, that's, critical is for that next head coach to instill a defensive mindset in that team. So going back to Anthony Davis's first year, I looked at this, they only had a top 10 defense once.

And in that same year, they were 26 on offense. It was just this weird thing with Alvin Gentry where you could not find the right balance. And even that one year that they had a really good defense, they brought in like Etouin Moore, guys specifically Solomon Hill to shore up that defense. and they completely ignored the offensive side. It was just a mess. So it's really been unbalanced for a while. Rob, if you're just looking at this hire,

is that what you have to prioritize? Is it more a guy who knows how to build up young talent? I don't know. What's the priority there? I mean, I think defense has to be part of it. And there's a lot of that with Stan that tactically speaking could be really appealing for the pelicans. It's a guy who all of his teams,

when he had the pieces, were built fundamentally around spacing. the idea of giving your best players room to operate all the way back to his Dwight Howard days, not as feasible in Detroit because they didn't have anyone who could shoot. But you also have a coach who is very disciplined who will bring that element to your players,

who will be that defensive mind. I kind of like that fit, just in terms of the possibilities that it brings you in a young team finding itself a little bit. Okay, see, I got a question for you. So I saw you have Chris Finch as a front of Indiana. Is he in the New Orleans job? He can't?

Because he's in New Orleans right now. an assistant. Is he running for that job? I haven't heard anything specific about him with New Orleans. I've only heard Stan Van Gundy, Ty Lou and Jason Kidd is the primary candidates for that. But Rob's right though. The discipline aspect is huge. New Orleans, I mean, they got to find some players who can actually perform on the defensive end as well. They could add another big. They would love a Miles Turner type or somebody like that if they're available. But you know, having a coach who can instill that mentality of you guys

mentioned is major, major key for them because they're not going to be anything without it. I mean, I think if those are the three candidates we're talking about, and I'm sure they're talking about other people and thinking about other people. You know, Ty Lou is at the top of my list. Stan would be second. Jason Kidd, pretty far below those two, just in terms of I'm having nightmares of what kid did in Milwaukee with Janus. And if we're seeing a vision of that with Zion, I mean, that's kind of the last thing you want,

developmentally speaking. See, but I would say, in his defense, He did really empower Janice in Milwaukee, right? He gave Janus the ball. For all the things he didn't do right, like Janus really liked him. Janus was upset when he got fired. And I would want to see the new coach

empower Zion to do whatever he's going to be able to do. He was also a guy who came up a lot when I was talking to people about the playmaking Biggs piece, in part because they ran so much action in Milwaukee during Jason Kids' time through those kind of elbow series, handoffs. Zaza Pichulio was saying

that kid was the coach like changed his career, changed him from being this bruiser, like, you know, defender and rebounder to a guy who could actually participate in the offense. So maybe there's more creativity to kid that I'm giving credit. And certainly congrats to him on his championship with the Lakers. But, you know, I'm still putting those other two guys over him, I think, just for a variety of reasons. Yeah. I think people forget that kid was pretty ahead of his time, especially in Brooklyn. Like, before anybody was really going stretch four, Paul Pierce was playing that position for them. I know it was because of injury, but there was a time where he really was pretty innovative. And I guess you

could argue in Milwaukee, he was innovative. It just maybe not all the time was the right innovations. So if it's not kid, it seems like Lou is also in this job. So we should talk about him briefly because it seems like every team on the market still wants him. Woj reported yesterday that he's also gaining significant momentum in Houston. He's supposed to meet in New Orleans this week. What do we think? If your Thai Luke have like, which of these options are you putting at the top of your list? I mean, it's interesting. He had an opportunity with the Lakers last year where they didn't offer him enough money, so he passed on it.

So if you're Tailu, maybe it's the one that's paying the most. But ultimately, I mean, I think that Clippers job still needs to be at the top of your list in terms of what Ballmer can pay, A, but, you know, if that's really the priority. But B, also, despite how the season ended for them, you still have Kauai Leonard and Paul George and a whole bunch of other quality players. Their championship contender and Ballmer, somebody who is not only willing to pay the coach, would pay whatever it takes to build a championship roster for the team. Yeah.

Let's talk about Chris Finch briefly, because we brought him up here in regard to Kevin's report earlier this morning about how he is considered the frontrunner in Indiana. He had been spending the past two years, I believe, as the offensive guru in New Orleans. I'm a little surprised that his name has come to the top of that list, specifically because it seemed like if you're going to get rid of Nate McMillan, and especially after guaranteeing McMillan's contract, I believe it was the case, that you should probably have someone in mind.

But as they're going through this interview process, I think Dave Yeager got an interview, a couple other guys. It seems like they're still kind of searching. Am I wrong? Well, I think with Indiana, what I heard was that Ola Depot and Nate weren't really getting along that well. And then the whole thing Ola Depot happened

where now it's getting out there that he wants to leave. And that kind of put someone in a tough spot is like, do you try to maximize Ola Depot now? or are you thinking long-term, are we going to have to move off this guy and kind of rebuild? And that's kind of the big question, even above the coaching, right? It's like, what's our long-term plan? And Rob, you were in Indiana a lot last year.

What do you think is like in their mindset right now? I mean, I think Chris Finch aligns with a lot of what we've been talking about as far as a Pacers fit. I mean, he's really adjacent to the idea of, you know, if you're going to put Mike Dantonie in this discussion, as a guy who can kind of jazz up their offense, who can give it a little more juice. Finch is that idea of,

but much younger. You know, to, you know, I think Mike Dantonies are really good coach. He's also 69 years old, and this is a franchise that kind of invests in a person for a longer term. You know, you're looking at who's going to be the coach of the Pacers potentially, at least for the next four or five years. And, you know, I'm sure they hope longer than that. Age has to be a factor in that conversation.

And Finch is a guy who super well respected around the league in terms of his creativity on offense is a guy who has shown he can take two bigs, even conventional bigs in Denver. I mean, Yokic, to what extent you say he's conventional, but he's certainly big and make that work. And find the space for those pieces, find the flow to create something around that. And so I think if you're a team in Indiana who's looking at your roster, who's saying we still want to give Miles Turner and Domas Sabonis a chance to gel a little bit more before we have to make a decision on a trade, I think Finch is a good place to start. I wonder what he does for a guy like a Sabonis. I mean, obviously he would have Turner shooting threes on pick and pops instead of. you know, 20 foot long twos.

But like for somebody like Sabonis, I'm sure he would empower a guy like that with the way he used, you know, you mentioned Yokic in the past or, you know, Zion last year. He would empower somebody like that to even facilitate more in the half court offense. Yeah, this is interesting because I think Finch is the first guy we've really been talking about during this head coaching rumor season that we're in right now who isn't a retread, who hasn't gotten an opportunity elsewhere. And I don't know. I mean, it definitely fits Indiana.

only because they're probably not going to pay top dollar for a guy like Mike Dan Tony. And I don't know if that's an issue, but you would imagine that comes into play of how Houston seems to be closing in on Tailu. And you'd imagine that to be the first and most important issue there. As we're looking at just like the entire landscape here and when all is said and done, what do you think will be the most important coaching hire that happens if Sossies? Not necessarily saying which guy to which team, but which like situation will all. ultimately be dictated by the coaching hire. I mean, I think we have to say the Clippers, right?

Just in terms of, you know, championship implications, a team that was mocked for a reason, you know, that they were up in a series, that they had all these advantages, that they had this roster on paper that was so spectacular, and it just didn't click in the way that it was supposed to. And, you know, if you're going to make a radical decision like that, like firing doc in year one after year one of this team,

I think that's a pretty telling statement as far as, coaching has to be a priority in a different way for this team. We have to look for something else. We have to have a different skill set in that position to get where we're supposed to be as a franchise. I could definitely see Clippers. And I could see the argument also for Houston or New Orleans as well. With the Rockets, you have James Hardin and Russell Westbrook, both with a couple of years left in their contract. And if this next coach doesn't get it right there with maximizing the roster, you're a team that's heading towards blowing it up.

if they've continued to fail or then with the Pelicans, you have an opportunity with Williamson on his rookie contract right now with Drew Holiday as well, other quality players to develop that and turn them into a playoff team before those deals are up and before they're all making a whole bunch of money and maybe you make yourself into a destination in a small market. So I think really like a lot of these teams out of here, these are critical decisions here.

I mean, all these teams are sort of at a crossroads where they could go down one path or the other. I'd put the nets in that conversation too just because you've got Kevin Durant, you've got Kyrie Irving, you've got all this talent. And like this coach, right, there's going to be on Steve Nash,

there's going to be a lot of pressure on him because this is an important job. This is the team that's expecting to go to the NBA finals at a minimum. So year one coach, that kind of pressure. That's going to be interesting because it's going to affect

the whole Eastern Conference at the very least how he does. And maybe an honorable mention too along the lines of what Kevin was saying about the rockets and the pressure there if it doesn't work, what that leads to, the Sixers are in this conversation as well.

Just because if you're a team around the league and you're eyeing Ben Simmons or you're eyeing Joelle Embed, that, I mean, the coaching is what's going to swing that, their ability to play together and their ability to be on the same team going forward. We talked 10 minutes before we talked about the Sixers. This is a new record here. I do think, like, the toughest jobs are probably the ones where you don't really have as much cover if you fail. So if Doc doesn't make Ben and Joel work, then they're going to blame Doc probably, right?

and if Chris Finch or whoever goes into Indiana, like doesn't make sense of that situation, doesn't really take them to the next level. I think people are going to look to the coaching staff, right? Is that fair, Charks? I don't know. I think with, I'm talking with Ben and Joel.

It seems pretty clear to me if like, it doesn't work next year, one of them is probably gone, right? We're not going to fire Doc after hiring him and then firing Brown, right? Doc's the last chance for those guys to work. I guess he also has like, what, a five-year deal? So maybe they press that into it.

Yeah, so maybe that's, that's the thing. If you have the most years and the most money, you're actually in the best situation. All right, on that note, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about a primer for the rest of the off season. All right, we're back, and we've got some breaking news here. Rob has told us that it's actually not primer.

It's primer. I regret to inform you. It's a sad day for all of us that have been saying primer for the better part of a decade. But we're here to learn new things on the ringer group chat. Rob, you have a much better handle. the English language than I do. That's for sure. Well, I mean,

Primer must have some British origins. It just, it feels like, you know, straight out of like a British lexicon. Can you use it a sentence? Can you walk us through the country of origin here? I've been editing for about a decade and I didn't know this, so. No problem.

All right. Let's get into the season, the offseason. It is officially rumor-mongering season, which is where we thrive, both on the website and on this podcast. Let's jump into it. Most intriguing team heading into not the summer, but I guess we're in winter. Are we still in fall?

Kevin's background is fall theme. What season is right now, actually? What is time, really? Yeah. Kevin, what do you think is the most intriguing team out there going into the off season? Oklahoma City. I mean, with all their draft picks with Chris Paul,

a guy who one year ago, people are like, ah, they're going to trade them. And then he has this great season and people said he was washed up and all that. But now you can make arguments that the Sixers should go for him, that the Bucks should go for him. You can make arguments for a handful of teams that Chris Paul makes sense for them. So they're in an incredibly interesting position to me entering the off season. Yeah. In addition to Paul, you also have Dennis Schrooter.

Gallo is a free agent. I mean, what do you guys do? Yeah, they need a head coach. They need pretty much everything at this point. What do you guys do there? Do you play for the future? Do you just handshay the reins and just play for the next team? Or do you try to make sense of whichever pieces you can keep without maybe dipping into the luxury tax?

Justin Cash Up. We're handing Baselie the reins. Let's get on. You're high in Basley? This is not surprising with it. Is he? He's Scal. What is his future, sharks?

I want to investigate this. I think he's got a ton of potentially. Six, nine. got some great ball skills, developing shooter, really athletic, very long. Pretty high IQ for a guy, critic, straight up, but a new balance internship a lot two years ago. This is a guy with a ton of potential. I'm really excited to see what he becomes next year.

I think he's moved himself into that conversation as part of their core, as a guy they can think about, you know, with Shay, with all these draft picks that are coming in, with all the other young players, you know, you want to throw Lou Dorton to that conversation, be my guest. But, no, they're a team that needs to strip it down and needs to start looking at trade partners for Dennis Schroeder, trade partners for Chris Paul, as Kevin alluded to.

There's some work to be done in terms of finding new homes for some of these guys, but it's really time. And I think there's a lot to be excited about if you're the Thunder, about what you could potentially get with all of these different pieces you have at your disposal. Did y'all see Gallo's quote to like an Italian? He said, like, now I want to win a championship. I'm not 20 anymore. Like, I'm not about Monday.

I want to win a ring. We officially have reached the point in the office. season where we're just translating things in Google Translate and just like assuming that it makes sense. Wasn't there like a deal for Mark Esol too? I'm just hoping someone else that it's right. Yeah, exactly. Nobody actually knows if it's right, but it gets passed around.

So you all assume it's right. I tried finding the original article. I think it originates for video. Yeah, it's a video. Yeah. So I don't understand the words. I couldn't confirm that he actually said that, but we'll believe Sport Nato that he actually said that.

They're the ones who picked it up, I believe. What rumor about an international player can we start on this podcast based on a loose translation from their native language? Do you think Alex Sabrina's can come back? Oh, deep cut. That's why he did leave. In looking at Stan Van Gundy teams, I was shocked to see the name Gigi Datobe pop up on some of those Pistons rosters. I think it's ready. I think it's the Gigi Sons is upon us.

Again, we'll lean on the same loose Google translation. Italian translation. I think we got something here, guys. Every team could use a shooter like Gigi de Tomey. I remember years ago, Brad Stevens said one of the best shooters he's ever had in college or NBA that can come off cold off the bench and drain a three coming off a screen. Any team could use Gigi. You heard it here first on the ringer group jet.

We need the hair tie. We need to bring it back. Let's talk about Shay just really quickly before we move on. Where are we on him and his potential? just because, like, heading into the postseason, I was ready to, like, wet him to my first-born daughter. And now after that last series, sure. And after that playoff series, I don't know,

he seems a little bit more shaky than I anticipated. Charks, what do you think? I think it's time to let Shea run an offense. He's been great in these first two years as a complimentary piece. And I think a lot of guys who get more height than him couldn't have succeeded in these secondary roles. So first with the Clippers, than an OKC where he's playing off the ball,

defending, shooting, secondary playmaking. I think if you're okay, see now it's time to see if he has the ball, if he's running the off, what's going to look like? Because we don't really know yet. We're just kind of going on potential and ways that on smaller roles. Charks, you had Shay ranked higher than almost anybody that I know in the 2018 draft.

And I think one of the reasons why you liked him so much was that ability to fit next to other guys, right? So I feel like with the playoffs, maybe this was just sort of a blip, I mean, growing pains that he's going through because he's in what is close to his ideal role next to a guy like Chris Paul and Dennis Schroeder. So for him, I'm sure it was just him being a young guy

and having to go through it in the postseason for the first time. But it doesn't change the fact that he's still a, maybe not the primary number one ball handler, but a guy who does a lot for you on your team next to other good players. This is going to be an interesting year in that regard if they do trade Chris Paul, just because there's going to be this wave of, quote-unquote,

correction on the idea of Shea and who he is and what he can be as a player because he isn't really suited to be that single lead ball handler type. But that is what makes him so attractive, is that, you know, in the modern NBA, you need players who can attack from different directions, who you can swing across to the weak side, who can attack a closeout, who can be a secondary ball handler. You know, way down the line, maybe he's only the second or third best player on a really good team. But that player can be super vital if he has the skill set that Shea does. I think, too, if you're OKC long term, is like, if you have Shea at Point Guard and you have all these draft picks, you can build an absolutely massive roster, 6-6-6-6-8, because you've got enough picks to do anything long-term. Rob, who is your most intriguing team as we're moving along here?

For me, it's the Raptors. And it's, you know, Fred Van Vleet is a free agent, Serge Abaka, Marcassol. They're preparing for a new deal for OG and Anobie in 2021 while also trying to preserve their cap space. this is a team that could go in a lot of different directions. And they have a front office and decision makers who will do inventive and interesting things. So I really have no idea what next season's Raptor's roster is going to look like. I mean, you figure Kyle Lowry is going to be there. You figure some of these guys are going to stick around.

But they really could do a lot of different things, whether it's floating, you know, one year kind of bloated contracts at certain guys, whether it's, you know, trying to, you know, move some of these other pieces via trade. You know, Norm Powell is always a name that pops up. those conversations and I think has some value. But just the sheer range of possibilities for the Raptors makes them interesting to me. Yeah, let's just talk about this because we were going to talk about it later about teams who might be keeping their powder dry for 2021, who might be thinking a year ahead here.

And so the Raptors are probably the most interesting case because they have three guys who are critical to their success, both last season during their championship run, Gasol, Abaca, Fred Van Vliet. You'd imagine Van Vleet considering this market maybe gets way overpaid. like if you're the team like the Sons or you're the Knicks maybe you just throw a bunch of money at him and hope that he could just balance out whatever you have. Other teams that probably fall into this conversation, Miami now probably don't have as high a caliber of free agents, but Drogick was critical for their success of the postseason. They also have Myers-Lennard, who is a large human. And they have Jay Crowder, who again was a starter for that team.

Dallas also you could throw in the mix here. they don't have as high profile of guys, but these are all teams that probably sit out and maybe play for that. What do you think, Charks? Do you think, like, the move here is to just wait? Or can you really, like, sit on a year of Lucas Prime, if we're going to call it that,

and play for, like, a Janus two years down the road? I got to say, as a Dallas person, this powder talk, just, like, giving me flashbacks to 2012. I think the one thing as being in Dallas this last decade is one thing I think people need to understand Cap space can always be created, right? You don't got to clear out the cap space three years in advance,

then just give the cap space to a player. You build a good team, the player wants to come, then you create the cap space, right? Then you say, okay, like, remember Golden State with Iguodala. He wanted to come. They shipped off a bunch of picks to make space for him.

You don't have to really, like, if I'm Toronto, I'm not stripping this team down to sign Janus next year. I'm building this team up. And if Yannis wants to come, I can always ship guys out, right? Like, if I got to dump Fred Van Vleet in a year from now, somebody's going to want them. It's not going to be like a big concern to like, oh, I got to clear my space now. So to me, it's more about be as good as possible so Janus wants to come play for you, right?

Guys don't want to come play for teams that are bad that are waiting out a year. They want to come play for an aggressive franchise. And to me, I think, like, big picture, it's all of Milwaukee, right? Because Janus holds all the cards for next summer. What is Milwaukee going to do to keep Janus around long term? That, to me, is the most fascinating question. Chris Paul. Kevin, if you're Toronto, what do you do?

I mean, I think if you're them, Charks kind of hit the nail on the head there, that with Van Bleet, he's a guy that you want to keep, and maybe that impacts your cap space in the year of Janus, but ultimately, he just proved with their way,

the way they got Jimmy Butler. They just gave up Josh Richardson. You know, they didn't sign Jimmy Ball. They signed and traded for Jimmy Baller. So, you know, cap space is important, but ultimately,

there's always a way to get a guy and sign and trades or flipping a guy elsewhere to create the space. And so for Dallas or Toronto, these teams, you want to retain flexibility. That's the important thing. And having flexibility

means having good players making money that can be flipped easily, not having, it's a simple thing, not having bad players making a lot of money. Like the Sixers will have a harder time flipping in Al Horford. He's not a bad player, but he's overpaid for the level of production that he gives. Whereas

if the Raptors re-signed band to like 18 per, they'll be able to trade that, no problem. The other thing about the cap space conversation, too, is the 2021 cap is going to be low because of the state of the NBA, because of the pandemic, because of the revenue situation around the league, this upcoming season relative to the season after. So you would hope that if the NBA is able to recover and hopefully the world is able to recover from what we've been going through, that the revenues will spike the season following as Janus is getting into free agency,

giving teams even more room to play with and thus even less reason to kind of wait and keep your powder dry. So what do we think about the bucks here? They have the opposite problem. They probably need to prove to Janus this next season that they can keep him, that they can go into the luxury tax,

that they can build a winner around him. Kev, do you see any obvious moves for Milwaukee here as they're trying to put together a team that can get out of the second round? I mean, you've got to find a perimeter shot creator, a guy who you can have Janus screen for and run high pick and roll. I mean, Yannas could be the best pick and roll, role man in the entire league, one of the best ever if he has a guy who can actually

create off the dribble. And to me, I've been obsessed with the Chris Paul idea for both Philly and for Milwaukee for months now. And I think packaging together a number of salaries are Bledsoe, Eliasova, among others, to get Chris Paul. To me, stands out. There's risk there. There's risk. He's in his mid-30s. He's gotten hurt, you know, burnt out with the playoffs before. But ultimately, I mean, Yannis would be the best player that he's ever played with. And pairing those two guys together feels like a perfect combination with complementary skills that really enhance each other more than anybody else that I can think of. I think what makes this situation so precarious to me is that I 100% agree with the idea of bringing in Chris Paul.

And yet, if that's the case, aren't we basically talking about getting Yonis to sign on the dotted line with no concept of what this team is going to look like in a few years if they're only trading to get older. I mean, that's kind of already the problem with this roster is who is the player on the bucks? I guess you could throw Dante DiVincenzo into this group if you really wanted to, who's going to make meaningful improvements

over the course of Janus's next contract, who's going to be a more valuable contributor by the end of it than they are now. There just aren't that many guys. And, you know, Chris Middleton is in the prime of his career. He's not going to necessarily get any better than he is right now. I worry about that for them. And yet I don't know how you convince Yanis to say,

other than making those kinds of immediate improvements, there's these competing incentives there that I think are really difficult for the bucks to suss out. See, my thought is, if you're Milwaukee, you've got to maximize next year, right? You've got Janus, two-time MVP, seven-foot monster, prime of his career. You may never, it might be 2055 before a guy like that is in Milwaukee again.

You've just got to go for it. And that's why I thought that Chris Paul move is the one to make. But I've heard they don't only want to do that, which really kind of surprised me. Like I thought I've heard anyways is like they're not super interested in that, which is like, what's the other option? I don't even see one. And for Milwaukee, that needs to be the concern here. It's like, yes, you know, Rob's right. If you get a guy like Chris Paul or anyone older, if you're yonest, you're looking at that team like,

jeez, three years from now, what are we? Towards the end of my contract after I resign, which is why the Bucks are such a, you're challenging, you know, offseason ahead for them because if you're Yonis, you're looking at Toronto, you're looking at Dallas, you're looking at Miami and some of these other teams that are going to be knocking at your door next offseason trying to get you. And you're like, oh, I could win here for the next decade next to Luca. I can compete for multiple championships with Luca and, you know, whoever else Dallas has on the roster. I feel like there's better situations for sustainable winning for Yannis than there is with the Bucks. But,

If you're able to maximize next season and get to the finals or win the finals, I have a hard time seeing how he would ever leave, which is why you're going to go all in. They're kind of in a no-win situation here because I feel like, let's just say best case scenario happens. The trade for Chris Paul, they win the NBA finals. What's stopping Janus from pulling a Kauai looking around his team and basically saying, oh, I mean, Chris Paul is like he's going to play 40 games next to me and who else is around me? and why don't I go to to Dallas just to take advantage of my next move.

But Justin, the win is a championship. That's not a no-win situation. Sure, but if you're the bucks... Why are we doing this? Yeah, but if you're the bucks... Why can't they have both? Why can't they have everything? Why can't they have the title

and Janus for five more years? We want the best for our friends in Milwaukee. Don't stop at the one championship. Yeah, especially if you're the franchise, if you're the owners. You want to cash in on Janus for a couple more years, man. I don't know who's going to go to that arena, that brand new, beautiful arena,

to see Dante DiFenchenzo and the DeFincenzoettes, you know? Here's who would go. His family. Yeah. Not that dark really fast. They would move from Delaware, and they would just take up shop in Milwaukee, just have a lot of brots, and that would be it. I don't know.

I think if you're looking, you have to look at both the long term and the short term here. I don't know if there's a move that really strikes that balance. Then who is it? If it's not Chris Ball. So I'm kind of curious. Like, what's the other move to make? Well, I think all rows go through Eric Bloods though one way or the other, right? Like, that's the piece that makes sense to move.

Who's taking him? Like, we're assuming that the Thunder would just take him? I don't know. Even that seems precarious. If I'm okay, see, I'm wanting to get something back for Chris Fall. I mean, whether it's the Knicks or Sixers or Bucks, whoever it is, you know, whatever. I feel like you can get something rather than like last year the conversation was, well, they can give up one of their picks to dump Chris Fall.

That's not happening. They don't have to trade Chris Paul. You're getting picked at the very least. If nothing else. Let's take a second to credit the Thunder for that too, because there was a lot of talk and a lot of pressure around the idea that they needed to move him immediately.

Then maybe even the trade for Russell Westbrook and Chris Paul could have been a three-team deal. They decided to wait it out. Chris Paul's value skyrocketed relative to what he could offer a team trying to win now. I think that played out pretty much exactly the way they needed it to. Yeah.

And if we're talking about other entreating teams here, another team that's on the rise in air quotes, I would throw out the Atlanta Hawks. They're in a really fascinating offseason just because they have all this cap space in a year that you probably don't want cap space. And maybe that turns out to be an advantage because nobody else is spending.

But on the other hand, maybe you're left with more Dwayne Dedman types making way more than he should. Trey Young seems to be getting antsy, which is probably the quickest I've ever seen a superstar, really push for a team to go all in. He's heading into his third year. And all of a sudden, he's calling shots

like he's James Harden. And then Jason Collins, I believe, is extension eligible this summer. And I don't know what you really do with him because you have Clint Capella there. You just brought Deadman in. I guess you could play some of those guys together. But what is his real future? Is he a five? Is he a four?

So I don't know. They have a lot of decisions to make. If they don't get these right, I could see it turning ugly pretty quickly. I said Jason Collins, not John Collins. Yeah. He's back. Jason Collins back. We're going to power through it.

I meant John Collins. charts what do you think um i think if you're atlanta i was thinking i always thought malik beseley made sense there but i'm sure he'll say in minnesota now like i think you probably at the rfa market trying to get a guy on tray and the rest of those guys timeline otherwise i mean you just got to hope those guys develop right your plan was cam reddish dandre hunter i mean they had up and on rookie years but they are rookies you've got to hope in the year two they complement tray maybe get one more piece in the draft because there's yeah like you said there's not a lot of obvious targets of them

free agency. I can't see. Yeah, Kevin, where are you on the Hunter Reddish combo over, you know, now with one season in the books? I mean, I like the idea of it. I mean, with Trey Young, he's a, he's a brilliant offensive player. But the defensive shortcomings, I mean, he's one of the worst defenders in basketball the last two seasons in his career. And I would expect when Atlanta makes the playoffs someday, he is going to get attacked and attacked and attacked possession after possession. So as many long, versatile defense, that you can find that can help compensate for his limitations on that end of the floor is important. And so with Reddish and Hunter, I like those guys.

And I think that's along the lines of what they should be trying to do when they build out this roster to maximize Trey Young. So I'm cool with it, even though those guys may have had some struggles during the rookie years. What they really need is to bring Jason Collins out of retirement. And they haven't settled. And Jaron, let's do it. Get all the columns together. Doug Collins is head coach. All right, let's flip to the free agents here on the market.

really weird market as we've been kind of dancing around here. Rob, who is your most intriguing free agent that we're going to see here? I had a really hard time finding an answer to this question that didn't sound like hipster bullshit, but it's just kind of that, it's that kind of market. It's that underwhelming at the top that you really start looking and digging. And Fred Van Vleet is one of those guys. You've already talked about him a little bit just because he could get a lot of money. This is a big summer for the Van Vleet family who, you know,

know, buy a yacht, name it the SS bet on yourself. Like, I think it's going to be huge for him. And the other guy who comes up for me is Christian Wood, just because he's a guy who I don't, at this point, I don't know what number on a contract for him would surprise me. Not because I think he's a Max. Max or nothing. But I could see.

This is a Christian Wood podcast, Rob. Get on board. Officially. I'm just saying I could see any number of teams who are looking, you know, if you're in a position to spend and you're looking at Christian Wood talking yourself into something that's truly ridiculous in terms of a number to give him. So I have some numbers for you guys. 23 points, 10 rebounds, one block, 56, 40, 76 shooting. That is what Christian Wood, our guy did after the Andre Drummond trade with Detroit.

I got to say, like, if I'm a team that needs a big, let's say the New Orleans Pelicans who actually let him go and just, I think he was on the way, wire, right? They just had him at the end of his roster and they ended up letting him go just because of a numbers game. Would he not be the perfect compliment to a guy like Zion, a guy who can shoot a little bit, play a little bit of defense? That's what you're looking for. I like it a lot. If you're Christian would, I mean, like, there should be something that's, you know, long term out there for him, you know, a nice 20 million annually deal or something like that. But what if offers are lower than expected and like the best offer is like four years.

60, like 15 million annually. Would he be better off signing a one year mid-level exception with like a top contender, say the Lakers and play out a season, then try to make himself a max guy the following summer? Is there any logic for a guy like him who awesome year, deserved more six-man in the year votes than he

ended up getting, looks like he's trending upward? Is there any logic to doing a one or two year bet on yourself deal a la Van Vleet and then come out on the other side making a hell. heck of a lot more money. Don't you think the Trudel pay him, though? I mean, what else they got going on? They should.

They'll give him some money. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's tough. He hasn't really made a lot of money in the league. If I was in his situation, if I'm 20-something, and I really have an opportunity to cash in, I would be really hesitant to turn down that amount of money because, like, maybe he never hits these heights again. Like, I'm pretty high on him.

I thought he did a really good job last year after the drum and trade. But who knows, man? that's a really tough decision. Which team, let's look at it from this perspective, which team do you think should burn some of this cap space that they have on him? There really aren't a lot of teams with it. So really talking about like a small pool of them.

I mean, to me it's the Pistons. They don't have much else. Drafts a guard, you have Christian Wood, Luke Conard, and some point guard and start building from there, right? Let me play devil's advocate here. Isn't that not the issue that Detroit did to get to this point,

that they kind of just draft. drafted these guys, guys like Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe, and they kind of just kept paying them until they couldn't, and then they were just left with a bunch of mediocre guys. But can you build a winning team, like a really good winning team with Christian Wood at that level that we're talking about, $20 million? I think so.

There's a cap's $100 million. I don't know. Yeah. And with Wood, my question would be like kind of flipped. It's like, yes, Detroit should pay him. If I'm Christian Wood, I would be like, do I want to get paid in Detroit, or do I want to go elsewhere?

a team that is where you can go in and maybe win right away or go in and be a primary contributor towards winning. I mean, like with Detroit, they don't have a lot going on for them right now. But see, if I was him, I would think I want to get my numbers. Like, I'm a young player. I want to establish myself.

I want to stay somewhere where I'm a primary option, right? Take a mid-level deal on a contender. I'm like the fifth option. I'm a big man who gets upset out of game sometimes based on matchups. Like, if I'm him, I want to establish myself as an elite big man. if I can get 25 and 10 for two, three years, and then I'll still be before 30,

then I can go to a market where I'm a go to a contender. I don't know if this is just because Justin put this bug in my ear a second ago with the Hawks, but that could be an interesting fit. Like the idea of him and John Collins, formerly known as Jason Collins, like two guys who are versatile, who can move,

who can attack off the dribble, who can kind of space the floor. You know, neither one of them is like a knockdown, knock down shooter, but it can space out a little bit. I think that could be kind of interesting. Yeah. I like that.

I think Atlanta. I mean, Phoenix, too. Phoenix is one more. I mean, depending on what cap number they actually end up with. It depends on one of the moves they make. Charks, you were just telling us that cap space is a state of mind. When you need to, you move heaven and earth for a town like Christian wood. So you would sign wood, Kev, even though you have eaten?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I don't see why not. If you can have two floor spacing bigs with line out first attility. I mean, maybe you have wood come off. with the bench making a lot of money but if you can do two bigs certain lineups we saw just last year with Toronto how often they played both casol and i Baca with the size and the length issues they presented to their opponents and you know i can see these teams go in another number of different ways you want to add good players period and phoenix has a number of different options here to build off their roster they have so many wings already you know i i mean you want more wings always but

for them i feel like a younger guy like christian wood who could shoot or roll or pass who can defend. That's intriguing to me. But see, if I'm would, I want to start. Like, I'm not going somewhere to not be a starter. That's a given, right? Like, if I'm signing with your team, I'm a long-term starting building block,

not a sixth man. Who else are we forgetting in this conversation? Chargers, are there any more intriguing guys on your list? So the guy I've always wanted in Dallas is Bogdan, Bogdanovich. I think he'd be perfect next to Luca. You could play on off the ball. Big guard, great shooter, great playmaker, great leader. My guess would be Sacramento wants to keep them.

So it's more about, does that mean Buddy Heel is getting moved, right? Because they probably can't pay Buddy and Bogdan like a combined $35, $40 million at Tugard. That's not going to make sense. What do we think about that? If you're the Kings, are you prioritizing Bogdan? Are you prioritizing Buddy? Do you even have a choice because it sounds like Buddy Heald isn't picking up Luke Walton's phone calls?

Yeah, I mean, reportedly Buddy is making that choice for you a little bit. Well, you benched him last year for Bogdan. You kind of made the choice right there. Which speaks to the conflict you're talking about. It's a conflict of salary. It's a conflict of minutes. It's a conflict of investment. And if you're both of those guys who are kind of in the thick of their career already,

even though that they came into the NBA pretty recently. But I think Bogdan's already 28 years old. Buddy Healed is what, 25, 26? Who knows how old body healed is? TBD. 45. But you know, like you kind of have to pick and choose at some point if you're a team in the king's position.

I think this is a very natural inflection point for them to move on from one of those guys. Yeah, this is a real shit show for Sacramento now. This really escalated quickly. What do you think about Buddy for Al Horford? In fact, that makes sense for both teams. Is that selling low on Buddy? Like, I know the Kings need a big every season,

even though they sign four every off season, but what does Al Horford have left here? Can he even be a starting big at this point? I think the idea would be he gives you that stretch five for Bagley. Even if he's not great anymore, he can kind of be a leader, give you some defensive structure,

give space for Bagley to attack the rim, be the idea. He's the ultimate compliment for Papayanas. I'm glad we're keeping our priorities straight. But if you're the kings and as always are talking yourself into the idea of being a playoff team this upcoming season,

why not? Like Al-Horford is the guy who stabilizes your organization, even with where he is in his career, even with how much money he makes. I think what worries me about Buddy and that whole situation, even setting aside for the fact that the kings are the kings, and they kind of do these baffling things at times that we have no explanation for,

Buddy's contract is just big enough to make me really nervous about what they would do with it, about the players they would bring in and how much dead weight that could lead to. And so a guy like Horford, again, as we've talked about in this whole conversation, is overpaid for what he contributes, but I would at least feel better about him

knowing that he's a good player than some of these other guys. It's going to be interesting to see what, you know, McNair and that revamped King's front office does here because they took on a roster with a little bit of an identity with De Arn Fox and the player that he is. But other than that, it's really a clean slate. You know, with Bagley not doing much so far in his career, he could take this roster in any direction than he wants to.

I mean, he could sort of try to replicate, you know, in their own way, what they did in Houston with two guards, you know, add another ball hand next to the Fox, or they could, you know, run with a, run everything through Fox and try to find more wings and try to find a guy, you know, to help stabilize things like Horford. My guess is is we'll see a lot of buddy healed rumors over the offseason for sure. I'd be surprised if we don't. It's just a matter of, are you choosing him or Bogdanovich?

And, you know, I think both of those guys are good in their own ways. It's really a matter of preference with their kind of, you know, slightly different styles. Kev, I'm curious, would you try to salvage Bagley or would you just say whatever? Like, if you are Sacramento. I mean, I don't know if you have a choice but to try to salvage him. I mean, value is so depleted right now for somebody like him. I think you've got to try to make it work. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

I mean, it's not your fault if you're a McNair. You didn't take them. That was the past front office. And, you know, that was their sin that they made. And that's why they're not there anymore. So one thing I'm wondering about, so Bogdan is a restricted free agent. Kev, do you have any sense of, guys on the RFA market

if they're going to get more love than usual because the unrestricted market is so depleted? I mean, there's like, I don't really have much of a sense right now at all because with the lack of clarity of what the cap is going to look like. So I feel like a lot of people I've talked to in the league

also sort of feel the same way. It's like, I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. But ultimately, though, like with these, you know, restricted free Asians, there's just not a lot of guys who, There's just not a lot of cap space out there.

There could only be five or six teams that have more than the mid-level exception to use. And the mid-level, depending on what the cap looks like, right now is projected to be around $10 million. So for, you know, for guys like Ingram and, you know, the pearls of the world, you know, Saurich, Beasley, you mentioned him earlier, charts. I don't really know what the market's going to look like, though. Ultimately, it's probably just going to be lower than what a lot of these guys are going to hope for with the exception of, you know, the no-brainer guys, like in Ingram. But I don't know.

And that's sort of the sense I get from talking about people in the league. I don't know. On the Beasley note, too, I mean, let's talk about the potential there because I think he's the guy who does fit a lot of different organizations. You know, Brandon Ingram is going to get a lot of money one way or the other. You know, Bogdan Bogdanovich may get some offers. But Beasley, to me, a guy who, you know, spent, you know, a pretty short time with the Timberwolves, but averaged 21 points a game on 59% true shooting, showed in Denver that he can be at least a contributor on defense who can dig in there.

Show me the team he doesn't fit on. And that's where, if I'm looking at this free agent market and all the variables, again, we don't even know what the cap number is going to be. Those are the guys who really jump out to me, the ones who could really entice any number of teams who could get offers from all over the place and you could see their market kind of ballooning a little bit.

My guess would be, though, if you're in Minnesota, you're a small market team, you don't really attract big free agents. You don't let assets walk, especially because Rose is a Houston guy. Like, if they let Beasley go, it'll be in a trade. He's not letting an asset go for nothing. I'd be shocked if that happens.

I would too, but at the same time, like, that's a lot of money all of a sudden between Kat, DeAngelo Russell, and Malik Beasley. Like, that's the core you're locking yourself into without much mobility to actually add other pieces. The number one pick, right? Yeah, that's the other part. Tush. I forgot the draft exists.

And I guess if you're in Minnesota, you probably made that, like, factor that into the equation. when you made for the Beasley trade to begin with. Real quick, because we're talking kind of around big picture trends here with some of these 3-&D guys. Is there anything you guys are keeping an eye on just throughout the league, just based on what happened in the playoffs?

We talked about like the value of Biggs in the past. Is there anything like that that you're keeping track of as we're going through this offseason? Charks, anything to come to mind? I guess because I'm always going to look at it at the Dallas angle is just like, do you want to give Luca the ball the entire game, or can you get him to be on, of an on-ball, off-ball role? I thought that was a big key

for like Denver and Miami, was the ability of guy like Jamal Murray to move off the ball and then give it up and then have it sometimes. And I do worry with Dallas. I feel like Luca, I mean, why not you're Luca Donchich, like hold the ball the entire game.

But I thought even for the Mazz, when Trey Burke came in that first round series, having that second ball hand really helped Luca out. So then it's a question of like, Can you bring in someone Lucas is going to respect enough to give the ball up? I think what happened last year,

he's like, y'all have Jalen Brunston and Dillon, right? Like, I'm not giving them the ball. It doesn't make any sense. So can you bring in a guy good enough to move the guy? Like with James Harden, right? When Russ came in,

James gave him the ball some because he respected him. So it's like finding that balance, finding a guy, your star is going to respect them to give the ball up a little bit. Unlike Westbrook, you've got to make sure

that player can shoot when they don't have the ball. It does help. The Murray example feels pretty instructive. in that regard, just because watching over these playoffs, how exhausted Jamal Murray looked on a deep playoff run. And that's a guy who's playing with Nicola Yokic, who's playing with one of the best playmaking and ball handling bigs in the league, a teammate who he can trust to give up the ball to.

What does it look like if the Mavericks make a long playoff run and Luca is dominating every possession for series after series? I'm not sure anybody can take that, you know, on this side of LeBron. One more thing I'll throw out there. The team I'm watching, the New York Knicks. Now, I think part of it is probably for the Chaudenfreude. I'll be honest. But they are at a really interesting inflection point here with this new front office. And I wonder which way they're going to go. I think everyone would say, considering their history, that you commit to the rebuild,

you build on slowly, you get more draft picks and you finally hit on the right guy and then go from there. But I do wonder if that's the way the game is played now in the NBA. And I do wonder if you can really count on that just like lucking into a top one, two, three pick. As we've seen in the past couple of lotteries, it hasn't really worked out for them. I do wonder if, like, this is the offseason where they might swing a Chris Paul sort of move and, like, lay the groundwork for stars coming there. I also think that CAA connection is really interesting.

Like, maybe the suns get off to a bad start next season and all of a sudden Devin Booker comes into play. Those next wave of guys, the cats and Russell and some of those sorts of guys, they're going to come up really soon here. And I do wonder if, like, the Knicks are going to be all of a sudden the team waiting in the wings. And I think it's really fascinating what they do this offseason, whether or not they'll keep building assets in order to make those trades or they'll try to legitimize themselves with someone of Paul's caliber. Which is the worst option? And I'm going to pencil the Knicks in.

I think, you know, both with the Knicks and other teams, I think one thing that I'm kind of watching is, you know, this is going to be a very strange market overall. Again, we don't know where the cap is. We don't really know how much room teams I'll have to work with. But this is a class of ownership groups of team governors. These are billionaires who have been taking, in a lot of cases, losses for months. I'm very curious to see if any of them takes a like macho swing at, oh, I'm going to be the team that pays out, that pays out this summer, that's really willing to invest, that finds a competitive advantage in dramatically overpaying for free agent X. as on White's side or Jordan Clarkson or whoever it is

thinking that that guy's going to change your team's fate because, you know, life has told us that you can't tell billionaires no for that long before they start kind of lashing out. And I wonder if this is the time where they start lashing out. If you're a Knicks fan, you better hope not, not with this free agent class. I mean, if it's Chris Paul, fine.

I think Chris Paul is somebody that could be a lure to that next guy who does become available either in the 2021 free agency or whatever, else. But what the NICS do need to be careful of is the assumption about the 2021 summer has long been that they could have all these young guys, all these young draft picks that they're going to have and two max slots. That's not a certainty anymore depending on how the pandemic affects the NBA salary cap. So if you're the NICs, maybe you need to be a little bit more conservative this offseason than you perhaps would have liked to have been entering the 2021 summer.

But, you know, I think Leon Rowe is my understanding is he's a smart guy. They've hired a lot of smart guys in the front office, you know, underneath them. We'll see here. I mean, we saw with the Lakers for years, you know, they lost games, but they built up a quality roster with some good young players, Ingram, Har, Lanzo, and so on and so forth. So many good X Lakers scattered throughout the league with the Knicks, they're not at that level yet. They don't have those young players that are appealing it to that next star player who might

be like, oh, yeah, I'll take my talents to New York. So that's the key thing, whether it's older guys or whether it's young guys. guys, they got to find some guys who are appealing. And in good players, that's really the thing of this podcast. It's pretty simple. Well, and as LeBron showed, they don't even have to be appealing to you. It's just as long as these are guys who are talented, who could be appealing to get an Anthony Davis, to get whatever the player is you want playing alongside you.

Go. Exactly. All right. Let's break here. When we come back, we're going to talk an idiot's guide to the draft. Kev, you know way too much about the draft. So we're going to part ways with you here. Anything to plug here? Mock draft today? Yeah, we updated the Ringer's 2020 NBA draft guide with a new mock, new big board,

and like some cute new graphics on the mobile and desktop for the mock. It's all integrated together. It looks beautiful. Our designers did an unbelievable job on that. It's crazy how good it looks. Blurbs? There are blurbs now? Blurbs, yes. Blurbs, yes.

Blurbs in the mock draft. This is big for us. All right. Thank you so much, Kev. See y'all. Thank you so much for having me. And we'll be back right after this. All right, we're back.

And we're Kev. We're going big three here because it's draft time, which means it's Charks time. Rob and I have no idea what's going on with the draft. None. We don't really watch college basketball. And we pretty much just wait for these guys to show something in the NBA before we get really invested. Charks, you are our guru. You are going to take us through this year's NBA draft.

Let's start big picture here. What's like your big picture takeaway from this draft? someone who doesn't know anything like us, what should we know about what we're getting into here? This is like, this is a draft probably where, I mean, everyone's like,

there's not a consensus number one overall pick, right? There's no Luca, there's no Zion. There's no Ben Simmons or Kat even. This is probably as Opa has been since the Anthony Bennett draft, where whoever goes number one, it's got to be the right fit because none of these guys are good enough to where you draft them,

you plug them in, they're going to be awesome. they've kind of got to be shepherded well. So it's a tough to have to have an overall pick for sure. I mean, my question is, you know, every draft Nick is going to have their guy,

their deep cut that they can use to, you know, you're a Shea Gilges Alexander five years from now. Like, who are the guys people going to be talking about? But I want to know who is the guy we can claim to outflank even the draft nerds?

Like, who is the sleeper's sleeper in this draft? Oh, that's a good question. Let me look at a list real quick. to give you the deepest possible cut. Please, please. Okay. I think, like, if you want to really, really, all right, I got you one. So, Jaden McDaniels, this is a guy, younger brother of the guy in Charlotte, Jalen McDaniels.

Six-nine wing can shoot a little bit, really athletic, played in a two-three zone. And before the Pack 12 season started, people were saying to be a top five pick. Because a six-done guy who can shoot threes and block shots. But then they got to Washington. They won like two games. He was benched. He had like 10 technical fouls. And they're just like, okay, this guy is just terrible.

Now he's being mocked into the late 20s. But in a draft without a lot of great talent, why not take a guy with like question marks who has talent at least? Just to give you the stage directions here, after Tarks brought up that name, you could see both Rob and I fiercely Googling. I'm trying to figure out who this person is. You don't have to tell them that, Justin.

No, we're an honest podcast. We lean into our Jason Collins and all of life's little foibles. Chirks, so as you mentioned up top, like number one is kind of all over the place. There's no consensus. Who's your number one? I go back and forth between Edwards and Ball. I think the talent, the possible upside there is high enough to where okay. In five years, you could say, all right, this guy was a number of overall caliber player.

They just have a wider range of outcomes. I would say their floors are much lower than most number one overall picks. But the ceiling is really high for both of those guys. I want to ask about another top guy, too, Tyrese Halliburton, who pops on film for me, who's a guy who looks really exciting in the limited amount of time I've seen him.

What does an ideal situation look like for a player like him? Oh, that's my guy. I had a big profile on him before the season started. And I'll give myself some credit for this. I was calling around for that. Everyone I talked to said mid to late first, Trump pick for Halliburton.

And now he's being mocked in the top, top 10, top five even. I think for him, Atlanta, go somewhere where you can play off for Ray Young. He's a really, like, smart, versatile defender. He can be a secondary guy. He can add value to a team where he's not being asked to be like a primary pick and roll ball handler 40 times a game. I think that kind of role makes a ton of sense for him. Charks, has there been any market correction based on how things have been, how the game is going

here? Like, we saw Biggs play a critical role in some of these postseason series, but we also saw some get played off the floor pretty quickly. Do you think that's having any effect on where some of these talented bigs like Wiseman and some of these other ones are going to get drafted? Well, that is the question, right? I think where Wiseman goes will be really revealing as to how people are valuing bigs because he's more of a, he's got some perimeter flex to him, but he's really a big bruising guy who can catch who's got a 35 inch vertical and can kind of protect the paint really well. He's not really perimeter based on either end of the floor. I would say

Like, my read on him based on very limited amount of film is he's more of like a Stephen Adams kind of guy. So how much value is a guy? Because remember, like, Stephen Adams coming out of college was a freak athlete. Like, his first few years in the league, he was jumping around everywhere. Like, and how much value does that kind of player have in the modern NBA? I'm not super high in Wyerson because of that, but we'll see where the NBA teams think he's going to go. Does Wiseman have a charming accent as well? He's a Memphis guy, so just an American.

I don't think I think too exciting about that. But who are the bigs in this draft that you could see being on the floor by the end, by game seven, you know, by the end of a playoff series who haven't been played out of the mix? Are there any guys in this draft class you see that could really fit that mold? Well, that's the guy, Ongu from USC. So he kind of more fits your, he's built more like a Tristan Thompson, where he's got the solid base, but he can move on the perimeter pretty naturally. And he has a little bit.

And the question with Akangu, is he more like Trishon Thompson or is he more like Bam out of bio? Right? That's like the people who love Akangu see a guy who could have unlocked offensive potential. And people who are like, hey, he's not that good. He's more of a defensive guy. But I think the Akangu-wise, I think it'll be really fastened to watch is like, what are NBA teams valuing in Big Men? And where those two guys get drafted will tell us a lot.

Should we go through some of the top picks here? Just because they're out there. So number one pick, Minnesota Chimberwolves. Sharks, who do you like for them? You know, I've actually, my initial thought was, okay, you have DeAngelo at point guard, let's draft a wing, but kind of went back to what we're talking about before, about moving a guy on and off the ball. Like, I guess this is not even a draft question.

Like, Rob, could you see DeAngelo in a Jamal Murray role? I could. I think it would suit him pretty well, honestly. And I think DeAngelo, the thing about him is he's a guy who has the vision where he can come off of a screen, come off of not having the ball and identify things very quickly in terms of where the ball should go. Now, whether he makes that pass is ultimately up to him and, as we've seen, kind of more of an open question.

But I kind of would like, I would prefer him, I would say, in that kind of role. See, that was my thought, too. Because I think if you're in Minnesota, if you're viewing DeAngelo as like a James Harden ball dominant point guard, you'd probably go for Edwards. But if you're viewing DeAngelos as more of this kind of on-off, moving without the ball guy, Lamello makes some sense there. Like, to me, that's the question is like, because obviously you have DeAngelo, he's one of your guys. I think how they draft will tell you how they view DeAngelo, and that will determine

the ceiling of their team going forward. Well, isn't committing to Lamello, Russell, and Kat just like a death sentence on defense? Well, I mean, you know, it's not great. Yeah, it's not great. I would also get a little nervous if I were Minnesota about bringing in too many players who take the ball out of Kat's hands, even if they are really good point guards, even if they could, you know, Lamello could be a great player, a great distributor. He certainly has the instincts for finding his teammates, but he's a guy who's going to occupy the ball in a way that I kind of, if I were running the timber was I would want Kat to do.

But the problem is Edwards is that guy too. AdWords is going to occupy the ball and not move it. Whereas, like, if you draft Lamello, who's the best point guard Katta played with Minnesota? Is it Jeff Teague? It's probably Teague. Like, he's never really had a guy who's in a great open shots for him, right? Like, that is kind of appealing.

Like, if you have Lamello and then you have Katta, at Beasley Russell, you're going to be a top five offense, almost guaranteed. And then maybe a bottom five defense, but... There was, like, light Chris Paul to Minnesota buzz that I think was probably being floated by his agency last summer just for that reason, because he needs a point guard to get him involved. Now, I mean, getting your best friend on the team probably satisfies that for at least the time being, but it's a really interesting position. They kind of like, a lot of the guys that I'm seeing being mocked to them at the top,

kind of overlap. So I don't know. And it sounds like, Edwards is pretty raw now. So my question for y'all is, like, there's just thought out there that Minnesota has to win now. I'm not sure that's the case with their draft pick, right? If Cat and Russell, you're two guys, they're locked in for a long time. Do you have to, like, maximize next season? To me, that might be the right way to look at it. I think you have to, for the sake of Kat.

Like, how long is he going to be willing to just keep losing at the pace that he's losing? And I imagine Russell didn't come there in order to do the same, you know? Like, if you have both of those guys in place, I think it almost makes it worse if you continue to lose because now you have another guy in your ear basically being like, yeah, this sucks, we need to get the hell out of here. Let's go hang out with Booker and Phoenix and the Scottsdale clubs. I think it's less about next season than just, like, showing demonstrable progress, right?

It's like, this is the course we could be on. We don't have to be there yet, but you can at least see kind of where it leads. That's what Kat needs to me in terms of his long-term future with the wolves. Charks, where are you on Culver? Is he going to factor into the future at all? It's tough because it's tough with Culver. I mean, he's got some real defensive potential. He's got a good length.

He's got size. But are you going to give him the ball, right? Because a guy who can't shoot needs the ball. And that's the tough part. With any of these guys who can't shoot, really, it's like when you draft a guy who can't shoot, all right, I'm building around him now because he has to have the ball. So I don't know what you can really do that with the rest of the talent they have in this roster.

That's the concern. I mean, between Culver and Joshua Kogi, they just need one of those guys to be a useful offensive player. And if they are, it really changes the complexion of this whole thing. Because if you can have that kind of wing defense long term potentially, it could give you exactly what you need next to a guy like Dangelor Russell. But, I mean, both of those admittedly seem like pretty long shots to develop a really substantive offensive game. I guess I'm curious for y'all, like, if you're Minnesota, would you want to kind of, would you want to like go after a forward next to cat if you already have Russell Beasley? or would you just go for the best talent? Probably best talent.

Like, it's probably where they're going to get into mistakes here. Well, I'm curious, though, like, Ocongwu's a guy that seems like he could fit, but is he ever going to be the type of guy who has the ceiling to be one of the best players, if not the best player in this draft? Like, can he satisfy both urges, or is he not going to be that guy ever? See, that's the question, I think, in a lot of NBA front offices. We were talking about Akangu, is he more like a Tristan Thompson or is he more like Bam? Because like the ban thing is tough because Bam did nothing in college offensively, right?

Bam basically once these workouts really impressed people and they're like, oh, wow, he has more game than we saw in college. A Kangu's same kind of thing where he's playing in a two big offense with kind of bad guards of USC. So he was not really allowed to show whatever it was his offensive game is. So you're just kind of guessing. I don't know what his offensive potential is. That's the tough question. I don't know. And is there a way from Minnesota if he was the guy that they liked to have their cake and eat it too, to trade down and get a Kongu, but also pick up something for their bench or another pick or, you know, some way for them to get in on that conversation without having him face the pressure of, are you the best player in this draft?

That's to me, I think Chicago at four would be a team. Maybe they might, because they have so many young guys, they might be willing to go up to one. I don't know who they would want there, but that might make sense. Let's go through the top three, the rest of the top three here. So Golden State, probably the most fascinating team in the draft, probably the most fascinating team in a couple years, considering all that they already have on that team. Charks, what do they need? And who would you say is the best fit for them there? I was actually talking some about this yesterday day.

And I said, if I was Golden State, I would just call Milwaukee and say, who do you like at number two? Just to be a real. Like, hypothetically, if all were drafting a two, Who would you want us to draft? Because I think if you're Golden State realistically, like, you're thinking about Janus and you're saying, how can I build up the assets to that?

If Steph can get Janus to come here, Milwaukee would be okay to make its trade? Because they can't sign you on sign. I have to be a sign in trade. So to me, the question for Golden State is, I feel like it's like a banking thing, right? It's like you got a store value here. because normally the number two overall pick is always more valuable in trades before it's made. It's kind of like the new car

thing, right? Once the car goes off the lot, loses half its value. You've got to figure out a way to draft someone, and then in six months, he's still going to be a very attractive trade piece. That to me is the question for Golden State, is like, how do you maximize this pick? Because realistically, right, Steph, Clay, and Draymond

are in their 30s. You draft a 19-year-olds, who's going to be good in five years. I'm never helpful to them. You want to draft a guy who can be a trade piece to get that prime guy. I can get you over the top again. Are there any guys who could, if they kept this pick, fit what they need? So I'm looking at Kev's mock draft here.

He has Denny Avija? I'm not a spelling guy. I don't, we miss Kevin's. Rob, you're the, you're the, you're the, uh, preistiation expert. Help us out here. You expect the guy who has watched zero college or international basketball to bail you out on this one. You're on a limb, my friend.

He's Israeli. So however you say that, I don't know. Sure. So is it him at two or would you go out? elsewhere if you had to keep the pick and use that player. That's the thing is like, I see where Kev's coming from because Denny really fits their system. He's a big forward with a lot of like passing ability. So like if you're drafting a guy to keep like two or three years, he makes sense.

But I'm just looking at it like, I don't think Denny's going to excite a rebuilding team. It's like, man, I want to playmaking forward against like 10 points and four assists and six boards. Like that's just not going to be an exciting trade piece. So to me, I don't know. That's the question is like, who are you going to draft people are going to want in three years. It's like, oh, this could be a future star. And what if you were to trade it? Are there any obvious candidates out there? I know Drew Holiday keeps getting mentioned a lot, but I think that would assume that the Pelicans

would want Andrew Wiggins back. And I don't know if he's rehabilitated his value to that extent. But like Wiggins and this pick and maybe another pick down the road, does Drew, you get him in there? Does he just shore up all the defensive concerns you'd want him to? And that's, you just go ahead. Wait, has he rehabbed this value at all, Wiggins? Did I miss that? What happened when he was in Golden State that rehabbed his value? I don't know. He just seems like he has better vibes going about him.

Steve Kerr has some good quotes about him, and all of a sudden, he's back, baby. That's all it takes. But no, like, are there obvious trade guys out there that would make sense for... So, I mean, Drew makes sense, but, like, I love Drew. Drew's my favorite players, but how is Drew going to help you beat the Lakers, right? If you're Golden State. That's the question for me. Like, I mean, you have a pretty small team then against AD and LeBron, right?

Yeah, you're kind of counting on Dremont to be able to guard. I guess LeBron? No, you probably put Clay on LeBron, right? See, that's tough. And Ad. That one, two, three would make me a little nervous about how small it is. And that's acknowledging that Clay and, in a lot of cases, Drew, can guard players one or two positions higher than them.

But anybody who's big on the wing or anybody who has a physical point guard, or God forbid both, that could be a real problem for the Warriors if they're in that kind of alignment. Is Kovan Luni just a non-starter now? Does he exist anymore? That's a rock.

That's a franchise centerpiece who's going to be, I wouldn't be shocked if he's their starting center for next season. Yeah, I mean, well, that's the question. Can they get enough minutes

guarding AD from some of these retreads or just minimum guys like they have in the past? See, to me, Drayman has to guard AD and you've got to find someone to guard LeBron. You've got to replace your Iguodala Durants.

Even if you have the Lakers as currently constituted where they don't have as big of a threat at that number three position, you wouldn't just like go with Clay in that situation? I feel like Clay struggled against LeBron in those series. It was always Iggy Durant guarding LeBron.

Clay was, Clay's really good at guarding like guards, but Clay's not, Clay's what, 215 may be. LeBron's, God knows how much LeBron weighs these days. Right. Let's just do the horn's, real quickly at number three.

And then we'll wrap it here. Charks, who do they need? I mean, they need pretty much everything, but which player specifically might be the best fit there. I don't know. I mean, like who you're building blocks in Charlotte, right? I mean, we like PJ. Wayne Bacon?

Yeah. Leak Monk. I think they need a centerpiece, right? Like, I would love to see LaMello here. They need someone who's going to bring it some excitement to the team. But I'm not sure he's going to last until three. It's a tough spot. Three seems like an interesting position because you could almost let the two picks play out.

it seems like there's like a weird almost consensus for the top three, am I wrong, where it's Edwards, Wiseman, Lamello, and if you're on the Hornets, maybe just pick whoever's available because you could use all three. My concern would be like, that's definitely the consensus. I'm just not sure Wiseman should be in that. I think KEOC has Killian Hayes number one. I think that's right. To me, the top three is Edwards, Lamello Hayes, not Wiseman.

But the contendants are in the league is Wiseman of three. I mean, the Hornets really lucked into this, though. I mean, they jumped up in the draft lottery and all of a sudden, like, you know, they've got some guys. I'm a little bit more intrigued in them than I have been in four years, maybe. Rob, sell me on the Hornets. What is there to sell? I mean, like you said for a franchise that the appeal is that you could kind of go any direction. I think the whole point is that the roster isn't really tethered in any particular place.

I mean, all due respect to Devante Graham, who had a fine season, but, like, you don't think twice before drafting a point guard who could supplant him if that player is available. I mean, Miles Bridges, P.J. Washington, Nicholas Batum making $27 million on a player option? Do you guys think he's going to opt in? That's kind of what I was wondering. I mean, one of the biggest decisions this offseason, is Nicholas Batum going to take his money? I love Batum. I just hate how he's, like, pretty much the past four years the back end of his career has just turned into him being his Millstone in Charlotte. I could see him if he gets bought out at the bedline and helping a team, maybe, right?

In the grand Charlotte tradition of Boris Diao being like the help. to a contender lying in wait. The future for every French player. All right. On that note, let's wrap it up here. We'll be back next week at the regular time for Rob and Charks, KOC and myself and Sasha on production. We will see you next.