The Ringer NBA Show - One-Month Survey: Best Player, Best Team, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 26, 2023

With one month of the NBA season in the books, Justin, Rob, and Wos join to debate the best player, the best team, and the biggest positive surprise players and teams so far (5:20). Then, they discuss the biggest negative surprise players and teams, mulligans they’d like for a preseason take, and whose stock they're buying low on for the remainder of the season (34:37). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat.

I'm Justin Varyer and joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, big wise. Guys, should we start the podcast by chastising our fans? Grabbing the mic, tell him this is not who we are. One of the strangest things I've ever seen in an NBA game. What was Greg Popovich thinking exactly? That he could do whatever he wants. I mean, he's not wrong about that.

It's just such boomer energy and it felt like such a projection. it's like, let's pretend that I'm not the reason Kauai wanted to hightail it the hell up out of here as soon as he can and blame the fans for being fans. It's ridiculous. Also, the fans did prove him wrong basically the rest of the game. It is, in fact, who they are.

They want to boo Kauai Leonard. And honestly, like, it's their right. Let him have it. It's absolutely their right to boo that, man. Yeah, how do you feel about guys getting booed when they return home? Like, Kauai, I feel like, was on the fence. but he did ask out essentially or drag his feet until they traded him. So it's not like there wasn't any reason to like not boo him.

Yeah. So I'm not going to lie. I just saw the opposite of that happened the other night. LeBron going back to Cleveland and everybody whooping it up and having a great time. I felt like it was disingenuine because those same people were throwing batteries, calling him the N-word, calling his mother a whore. Like it was like, come on. Calling him a whore in a book.

title. Yes. I mean, like, come on, Cleveland. This is disingenuine. I'll never, a disingenuous excuse me, I'll never believe that you people actually like LeBron after that disgusting display in 2010 when LeBron came back for the first time. So honestly, for me, it's just like keep that same energy. I'm with it.

Boo Kauai until the day that he dies. Yeah, the ones that get under my skin a little bit are when a player gets traded away for reasons completely beyond his control and then they get booed when they come back even though it's not really their fault at all. But like, Kauai certainly had a part to play in his exit from San Antonio. I can't begrudge anyone there

from feeling a little mift whenever he rolls back into town. Justin, where are you at with the, you know, like Jerome James leaves the Knicks? He comes back and he gets a player montage. Where are you at with that troll? Because teams do that troll all the time. Well, is it a troll?

are they trying to just like satiate like the agents for some of these players? We're at the point where it's now like deep bench guys who are like the eight men of the like on these teams that are getting big board treatment. That is way too much. But yeah,

I think if a player leaves on weird terms, you're more than welcome to boo him. You know, if I were to get fired from this podcast and all of a sudden I came back on as a guest, like you could boo me. I feel comfortable saying that. Yeah, we will. Don't worry about that.

And also cynically, as media members, we want fans to care about the sport that we cover. And Boeing is caring. You know, so shut up. There you go. All right. On today's podcast, we're going to get into Rob won't let us call it the one-month awards. So we're going to call it the one-month survey. I just thought it would be a little misleading considering we're not giving away any actual NBA awards.

There are awards, okay? They're the ones that we have. Yeah, exactly. Come on now. I guess. It's like the Pulitzer or the Nobel, but group chat. Come on now.

I think these are maybe not quite so lofty as that, but they are superlatives for the first 15 or so games of an NBA season, which is something, certainly. See, they're not superlatives, though. They're absolutely superlatives. Superlatives, it's basically all of the bests if you really want to get down to it. Like, there isn't much variety. That's literally what superlative means.

No, it's not. Superlatives are just like made up. I'm talking about it from the high school sense. They're like, oh, you are the most likely to and they come up with something a bit more creative. We're literally just going down to here are the best and the worst. Worst is not a superlative, for instance. I think it's also a superlative, technically.

Okay. If listeners wanted to know what the NSA sees in Rob and Justin's exchanges as writer and editor, they just got a nice sweet taste of it. It's not an accurate representation of this pod. It's not what we stand for. We are not superlatives. Everyone boo Rob.

But yeah, we're doing most disappointing preseason mulligan, et cetera, et cetera. I think we have to start with best player, the most pressing of these questions. All of you guys have Derek White, right? Certainly essential personnel, right? So essential. The facts speak for themselves. So essential. I mean, the best player, I tried to get cut Cudsy.

try to get creative. It's Nicola Yokic. I don't think it's particularly close at the moment. Let me just run down a couple of stats that this guy is currently first in. First in PR. Wow. Was that info here? Yeah, yeah.

First in PR. First and win shares. Per 48. First in box plus minus. First in offensive box plus minus. First in verb. First in rebound rate. And my personal favorite stat to start the season.

first and defensive box score plus minus. That is a thing right now that is happening. Nicole Yolkich's first in defensive box score plus minus. I don't even know what that stat is. I don't even know if I've ever heard of it before here, but I'm glad that we could cite it as if it's a thing. What's funny is like last night I was actually sending Rob a stat in order to see whether or not it was genuine, which was rim protection numbers,

which actually suggested that Yokic might be one of the worst. if not the worst rim protector in the NBA. So who's to say with some of these defensive statistics? They're all bullshit. I think it's just about Denver's bench being completely garbage. The hockey, the hockey substitution nature that Mike Malone just will not, cannot quit, no matter what, for whatever reason in the regular season. I think some of that is happening in these early season numbers.

I just thought it was hilarious that, you know, all of the handringing we did about this guy's defense, the last few years and to watch Denver's team defensive performance in the playoffs over the course of that whole playoffs be like entirely competent and to come out and put up that stat to start the season. It's just so funny to me. Yeah, I mean, Nicole Yokage is not a great rim protector, but where he's actually pretty good is kind of between the top of the key and the charge circle, like really active hands, moves pretty well, especially for his size.

Like, can be reasonably disruptive, certainly disruptive enough to win the title. And so when you're even that good defensively, and as was laid out, you're incredible offensively. Even in a way where he isn't quite matching the ridiculous efficiency he managed last season, but he's still insanely efficient relative to everyone else, wildly productive, and just like in control of the game and his effect on it in a way that goes, I think, beyond anything we've seen from him to this point. Yeah. So, guys, I have a confession to make. I also have Nicola Yokic as number one. I'm so proud of you, Justin. But I have to say,

I thought it was reasonably close going into yesterday because I think empirically, the statistical case for Shea is actually really close. The numbers... Okay, Jeff Teague. Are surprising. What did Jeff Teague do?

Jeff Teague said on his podcast that Shea's the best player in the league right now. Well, see, I think that's where I would quibble. Like, based on the numbers, I think Shea has a very good case, especially considering how high the thunder are in just the team rankings. I believe they're second in the West

as we're recording this on Sunday morning. Had they won yesterday against the Sixers, I think they would have maybe vaulted a spot there, but net rating-wise, we'll get into the best team and whatnot. Like the Thunder are right there, and he's obviously the best player on that team. I think just, just, I test wise,

I think it's tough to really make the argument. I think it's possible even that by the end of the season, we might be saying that like, Chet might be their most important player. And I think long term might be their best player, but She doesn't have, have the take the game by the throat quality that I think Yokic has had throughout this season. Shea's been awesome, though. I love that he's in this conversation because it's fully deserving.

And he's another guy who, in addition to being a mid-range monster, incredible in the floater range, like obviously the stop and ghost stuff he does getting to the rim is incredible to watch and incredibly productive too. He's also taken sips defensively, I've thought, this season. Come up with huge stops, like really using his length more effectively than he has before. So I love what Shea is becoming as a two-way player. Certainly has affirmed his first team all-N-Ba standing from last season and taken it and run with it. So I think the conversation is probably Shea to some degree. Joel Embed, obviously is in this group two.

He's been incredible this season and carried Philadelphia. As much as we want to talk about Tyrese Maxie or any of the other role players there, it still is the Joelle show in a lot of ways. They're just using him a little bit differently. A little bit better. A little bit better, certainly. Let me ask this question, Was, do you think that Joel will ever get any credit for MVP or be in the discussion ever again considering that most people regret giving it to him last year?

I think he absolutely can. And part of the reason why is if you actually watch these Denver games, they are extremely Yokic-centric. And he doesn't seem to be having a lot of fun with it, man. Which is to say, like, I think there's a version of the season where Murray's more health, where Murray's healthier, and Yolch is just doing less. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And Shea is probably not as good as he has been. He's probably at the peak of what he's capable of at the very moment. And, you know, Mbid is getting more recognition for what he's doing in Philly. I think there's a way that that could happen. I just think the way the season is broken to start off with Murray being out. And like, I'm telling you, man, like Yokic is doing everything. Oh, my gosh. You know, so long as he's on the floor,

that's why he's not really getting that pub right now. Yeah, right now, the state of the Nuggets roster is this. Their second best player is basically a dirty work guy who excels at it in Aaron Gordon. Lunch pill. Their second leading scorer in MPJ basically doesn't dribble for the most part because Yokic is serving up looks to him at all times. They're starting two guard basically gets like 90% of his shots assisted.

They're starting interim starting point guard. It was not only out of Denver's rotation a few months ago, but has come into it and played relatively well because playing with Nicola Yokic, the bare minimum is often enough to play pretty well. And Reggie Jackson is trying to take some of the reins, y'all. Well, this is where the MVP discussion gets really weird because you almost have to discredit Shea a little bit

because he has more help around him. And you want to give Yokic more love because he's making the most of a lesser supporting cast here. But I just think what he's, he's done has been incredible. The thing that really sealed it for me. The thing that I like can't get out of my brain was the game late against the clippers in which Yokic just completely dominated like when he was single covered, he would just take someone into the, into the rim and he would just score on them. When they brought a double, he would find the right guy. PJ Tucker

all of a sudden plays relatively okay defense against Yokic. All they do is screen him off of him and the whole cycle starts again. There's something about how like how easy, like, how easy, like how simple and just dominant it was. Like when we talked about Steph's dominance with the Warriors, it's like, oh, the advent of shooting. There was like these big trends. It's like the switching on defense with Yokic. It's just clear, simple dominance in a way that I can't remember since maybe LeBron.

It's just uncomplicated, I guess, might be the way to say it. This was something that actually came up when I was talking to Rick Carlisle for the Tyrese Halliburton story I did. One thing that he talked about was like, I picked that name. You just dropped off the floor up. Okay. Literally just doing my job. Okay.

One of the things he mentioned was that the great, great players have an incredibly simple view of basketball. Like, everything is a simple explanation, a simple chain reaction. Like, their view is incredibly, like, boiled down and simplified to a degree that anyone can understand what they're talking about, but very few players can actually do those things with that kind of, like, perfect clarity that Yokic does. And you can look, you know, just looking at Joelle and Bech.

for example, just a bunch of things with great clarity, scoring, attacking mismatches, but you ask him to attack a double team and that clarity

gets fuzzy, right? In terms of, like, am I supposed to be aggressive in this moment? Am I supposed to wait out the double? Am I supposed to pass

early out of it? Even knowing that the guy I'm passing to is maybe not the best three-point shooter in the world, but it's technically a good shot. Yokic plays in a way

where all of those answers feel very, very simple at all times, virtually regardless of who he's playing with. And that in itself is an incredible gift. And I've said it a bunch of times.

He's the only guy in the league in crunch time, single coverage, quote unquote hero ball. It's a fucking layup, okay? He's getting a shot at the rim in crunch time if you single cover him. To me, that's like completely like impossible to quantify how valuable that is. That's shack shit. And then if you bring the double team, it's magic and Steve Nash. and then if you sag off too much, he was not scared to shoot the three

or rolled into one guy. It's really remarkable to watch. Anybody else in this discussion, I feel like we have to mention Luca 31, 8, 8, 8, practically, but Rob anyone else? Yeah. Honestly, even to me, Luca is like a bit of a step down from those top three,

which isn't to say he hasn't been exceptional. It's just, I think the top tier right now in terms of play in these first 15, or so games. I would say Yokic than Embed than Shea personally. But I could see arguments as to how two and three might be flipped for sure. Yeah. I will say Shea taking

on the mantle as like chief internet troll from Joel Embed. I don't know if you saw the particularly spicy video he splaced together or someone for him. No, what was it? So after they beat the Warriors, he posted a video in which it was all plays against

Stefan Curry. So it was like him just like backing him down. I like that. Or just like blocking him on the perimeter. It was particularly good. I will say not a fan of like the random IG rapping from Shane. Oh, I love it.

Oh, the slant poetry. Come on. It's a little corny for my days. But I like the spice. He's definitely like leaning into the confidence and I appreciate that. Look, if you're this good, you can do as much slant poetry as you want. You know, you're entitled.

And it's a part of his image making. his own myth making and all of the greats, you know, LeBron, Kobe, Shaq, they're all really good at inventing their own myth and image. And Shay is super tapped into that. That's how you get a Skims sponsorship as well. 100% baby. Or also being compadres with Tristan Thompson. You feel me?

All right. Best team. Who wants to go? I think it's Boston at this point. They've had some bad losses, but honestly, they just have a better, more complete body of work

throughout, again, these first 15 or so games than anybody else. I think in part because they're balanced on both sides of the ball. They lead the league in point differential. What is happening right now? Just let it flow, Rob.

Do we even have the rights to whatever you're playing? I can't even, are we going to have to cut this whole segment? We'll figure it out with D. Daniel Atkins Post. Yeah. No, keep going. I literally can't even hear what you're playing.

What are you playing? It's vindicated by Dashboard Confessional. Oh, okay. I mean, look. Okay. We do support Chris Caraba related content in here. So I'm in favor. Also Spider-Man 2 related content.

But it's fair for us to eat some crow at this point. I think Boston has been very, very good. They certainly haven't had any of the speed. bumps that a team like Milwaukee has. Like what is the Celtics biggest problem right now? Is it Jalen Brown doesn't fit super snugly? Or yeah, the occasional Derek White absence, the occasional injury is, is that really their biggest issue?

Yeah. I mean, to me, why you have to call them so far the best team in the league is that when their six best guys play, they smoke people. That's like, that's it. Like when their top six guys hoop, they blow the door. off of the teams that they're playing. And so, you know, to this point, they have put together the best team resume.

I don't know what Justin's laughing at. They've put together. To this point. I mean, I heard you. To this point, they put together the best team resume in the league so far. I think that's undisputed. And the poor Zingis of situation has fit seamlessly. He's absolutely thriving in Boston right now.

I love that he's been unafraid to just straight up put him up. I thought that there might be some hesitancy there, that he might try to do the fit in type of situation. But no, he's been ultra, mega aggressive. And so that's been incredible. And we mentioned Derek White, man. He is so freaking key to making that thing go. because look, and this is not damning with faint praise.

It's just the truth. Nobody else on that team really knows how to move the fucking ball. Like nobody. You know, Derek White is expert at that. And whenever he's taking a spot-up shot, I don't give a fuck how contested it is. I think that thing is going in. And when he's attacking a close-out aggressively,

I think good things are going to happen, whether he actually finishes the play or finds another guy with the extra pass. Derek White as the glue guy as the missing piece, the skeleton key, whatever awful metaphor you want to use

is incredible to watch. I thought it was a great metaphor was. I thought that was very artful what you did there. You never say that about my metaphors. Step up your game. But yeah, no, I think the Celtics are pretty clearly best team in the league, best record, best net rating. Although we have to mention

the thunder here yet again. Because before yesterday's on Saturday's loss of the Sixers, they were ahead of them. They're now second in net rating. But I mean, this is, I mean, we could say that they're the biggest surprise in the NBA, but just like the fact that they've been able to just like go toe to toe to with the best teams in the league already, Rob has just been like miraculous. Yeah, their performance in those games has been pretty inspiring. And honestly, it's true of a couple of the kind of upstart teams right now who have caught us by surprise.

is they've all, what they have in common is they've done well against the top teams in the league to date. But Oklahoma City, to kind of continue our conversation from last podcast, like, this is why I feel pretty strong and pretty confident in their long-term prospects here, right? If they have this version of the roster

going into the playoffs, I think that's pretty dangerous to basically everyone. And we'll see where the nuggets are in terms of their own health at that point in time. We say all these nice things about Boston. Do I think this Celtics team is better than a fully healthy nuggets team? I do not.

but they've been better for these 15 games. Just had to throw that in there, huh? Just a reality check. People at home know exactly where we stand. That's all. Unless the Nuggets play the Rockets in the playoffs. In that case, they will never win a game and we'll be swell. You don't want to play the Rockets in the playoffs.

But I think that might be a good segue to our next category, the biggest surprise player or team. Sure. I had a hard time kind of threading the needle between player or team here, for me, Alperin Shangoon and the Houston Rockets collectively are both massive surprises and their massive surprises for the same

reason. Ultimately, I think I've always, I and we on this podcast, I feel like we've liked Shangoon. We have spoken glowingly of him in the past of his skills, of his talent. I personally have been a little skeptical, or at least I wasn't entirely sure that he could be the hub of an entire offense.

I think that, I mean, those concerns just been washed away entirely. And the fact that he is the hub of an offense and plays on a team that is currently the number one defense in the NBA, I don't think largely because of him per se. Tides. Well, tied. But the fact that an Alperin-Shen-Goon team is one of the top defenses in the league

and in strong playoff position at this point is mind-blowing given how underutilized he was last season. And where he's been in the Rockets pecking order over the last few years, I'm not going to lie. It made me wonder, does Stephen Silas know something about this guy

that we don't in terms of maybe his game just doesn't translate to a prominent offensive role? Maybe there is a reason to be actually concerned

about taking these skills and these talents and turning into something that can support a whole team. Those concerns were just not founded at all. And as soon as they put the ball on his hands

and started focusing him in what they do, they took off. Like, this team just has a dramatically different trajectory than it did a year go. So obviously, I loved the sort of basketball IQ and know-how his understanding of flow and

positioning and, you know, just understanding the nuances of how defenses are trying to attack and him being the de facto point guard of the team the past few years, right? Like, that stuff impressed me. This year, the fact that he's just dominating one-on-one matchups to score, that's just a completely different proposition now. If this guy's just going to straight up score over and around and up and under every single person who tries to check him one-on-one, this is just a completely different proposition now. As much as people like some of the young guys, and I like Jalen Green, I think he's taking some steps. And I think Jabari has, you know, defensively anyway, has stepped it up to another. level, none of them are dominating one-on-ones this way, right? And so you got to give him his

props. And again, we thought that Dylan Brooks and Fred Van Vleet would bring a level of professionalism, a level of veteran know-how to this bunch, some toughness, some leadership. And they have delivered that. It's actually worked. And, you know, Emei Adoka, God bless him, man. This guy's keeping this group accountable. The way that this is, team plays defense, that's indicative of a team that holds itself accountable and holds itself to a standard. A sloppy-ass, you know, go with the flow-ass teams don't lead to NBA in defense. That's not how this league works.

And so that's been impressive. Yeah, I do think the team is winning based on their defense. As much as the Shen Goon coming of age has been a really great story. For sure. Definitely great to see them empower him in ways that he hadn't been in previous seasons. like if anything, I almost want to give this to Doca or some of the guys that they brought in. Yeah. This was an actual award that people handed out because this team is tied for first, as Rob mentioned, with, in defensive rating, tied for fifth in net rating as a result of that.

But I think that's probably a good segue to talk about the team that they are tied with, which is the Orlando Magica we talked about last week. Sure. Beating Boston. Yep. Beat the brakes off of those boys. Yep. In a pivotal in-season tournament game, Mo Vogn. who, by the way, leading the league in true shooting percentage is the type of backup center

that I think literally any team in the league could use at this point. Obviously, basically was just cast aside in Boston, ended up with Boston, in Orlando with his brother now. And I keep bringing it up. The bench has been incredible. And I just, I don't know the staying power of this team as a result of this, but clearly they are going to linger in this play in to slightly above play in range, probably for the rest of the season. No, if listeners were playing close attention,

Justin quite pronouncedly, said they were tied. The Rockets were tied at first in defense with Justin's Orlando Magic. Well, what's weird is they actually have the exact same statistical profile as we record this on Sunday. They have the same offensive rating. They have the same exact defensive rating. They have the same exact net rating,

which is just a wild weird thing that probably know what he cares about, except for us because we're nerds. but the magic at the better record 11 and 5 the rockets are 8 and 6 yeah i the magic were actually my biggest surprise team because i you know because orlando's guys to me i'm like look we think the world of palo obviously franz vachner especially after what he showed over the summer in international play it was like okay this is this is looking pretty nice but you know they needed guys like jalen suggs other young guys to Black, like these guys had to step up, right?

And they have. Jalen Suggs just straight up has been playing better finally. By the grace of God, the jump shot is falling, which has been an incredible development. And so that's why they're... He could be a biggest surprise in himself, I think. Jalen Suggs could be. Exactly. Exactly.

And so that's why Magic are my biggest surprise. The teams that they're beating, the way that they're beating them, you know, clutch wins, pulling it out in the end in some instances. Just, again, just straight up beating Boston up and down the floor in other instances. That's surprising to me. That's very shocking. And, you know, we want to give them the props for that. Totally fair pick.

And I would guess at this point, they're probably the only team in the league that's beaten all three of Boston, Milwaukee, and Denver. Crazy. Wild, wild stuff, given how young this roster is for the most part. And how accomplished many of their players are becoming in areas we didn't necessarily expect. Right. we've covered the bench, as you mentioned, Justin, like how they've stepped up.

Jalen Suggs being one of the best defensive guards in the league was not a development I anticipated walking into the season, but he's fully there. Well, it's one that I did, but okay. I mean, I expected a good defense, good effort. He's always played with a good head on his shoulders. The question was mostly offensively, but he's been exceptional on defense.

Like, all defense-level candidate in the early going of this season. I really hope that holds up because we all want good things for Jalen Suggs. I love the way that guy plays. And so if he continues this and their defense continues this, they're going to be in playoff position. They're going to be a competitive team. And they're going to keep beating the brakes off of some of these teams that are quote unquote more talented than them.

Yeah. Currently writing a six-game win streak, their next four, Charlotte, the Wizards twice in Brooklyn. And so this could be a 10-game win streak very quickly where they might be atop the east. And we're like, can the magic make the Eastern Conference finals? Unfortunately, right after that,

they play Cleveland, Boston, twice Miami and Milwaukee. So get the love in now, but it's deserved love because this team is very good and has a bright future ahead of them. They still need to be able to shoot, which like Suggs now getting close to 36% has been a godsend. Like this is the one thing we've been waiting for. It makes him so much more viable so he can fly around defensively.

But like maybe a little bit more Gary Harris in that starting lineup. They had him starting with the starters in the second half of that Boston game. But like I think you hit the key point there, Rob. They play very hard and very well. against the best teams. There's like an edge there. And I guess you have to give Jamal Mosley all the crowd in the world there

because he has these guys ready to play against some of the best teams. Absolutely. And guys that, you know, top to bottom don't necessarily have elite defensive reputations. I think the great things that people love about,

even Franz Wagner and Powell Bankerro, they love their size, they love their playmaking. You hear about the way they leverage those things on offense. We probably don't talk enough about the way they leverage them on defense. And the way this thing fits

cohesively together with all of that size on the floor. You know, Goga Patzay giving them good minutes. Mo Wagner, as you said, like the fact that they're doing all this without their starting center is really, really impressive. He is. He's only, he's only playing 15 or so minutes a game, but they're important minutes. Like, maybe don't let him dribble. But other than that, things are going great for Jonathan Isaac right now. So who else should we nominate here? Why? Is anybody else? That was only two that I had, the magic and the rockets. I didn't really, I couldn't really come

with the individual player. But yeah, I had the magic with a bullet. Just off of the recency bias, as you said, they've won their last six games. I watched that Denver game. I watched that Milwaukee game. I was just impressed by the fact that they were able to get those things done down the stretch against real teams with real experience,

real all-MBA level type of talent that they're just getting it done against. And so, yeah, for me, it's just having watched them closely recently, it's impressive. Yeah, Oklahoma City probably has a case here, but I think we were high enough on them coming into the season that maybe they aren't as big a surprise, although certainly very impressive. I think this way the Sixers have played has been a very pleasant surprise.

Tyrese Maxie could be his own kind of case study in that too. And the Minnesota Timberwolves being back near the top of the Western Conference, another great one. Well, not just the Timberwolves, but our friend Rudy Gobert, who all of a sudden would probably be at the top or near the top of the defensive player of the year ratings. Rob is not convinced. No, some of us aren't surprised.

Interesting. You were probably the last fan of Rudy left on the planet. I have to imagine. Rudy Gobert has always been a good defensive player. And if you were paying attention to the Timberwolves last season, they were a good defensive team. And he was anchoring them again. So I'm just not blown away by him being an elite defender again.

Yeah, but the best defender potentially in the league? I don't know if, like, yeah, I don't know that I thought he would get to this level again, this idea that he would be the forerunner, the front runner for defensive player of the year right now. That's, that's kind of crazy. I think we, I assume those days were behind him for sure.

But yeah, I'm pleasantly surprised by what Minnesota is doing. Another team that plays really hard, plays with the edge. Carl Anthony Towns individual defense is crazily improved. The stuff that he's doing. It's wild. Like to watch him give a incredible hedge on a pick and roll,

then shuffle his feet as the guy tries to dribble to the basket to give a good contest. I'm like, damn, this is like... I've never seen someone play such hard defense and want it to be known with all of his, like, his hand movements. I am playing such hard defense, but like, you got to give him credit for it. He is definitely busting his ass. You can't just let him have this, Justin. You can't have his moment.

He's blending well into that team. So he deserves the surprise as well. He's not forcing it at all on offense. He's incorporated this drive game now because obviously people are deathly afraid of his shooting. And his drive game, early on in the season, it was looking nasty. Because you could tell it was like a new emphasis of his game, right? But he's getting better and better as the year goes on. And so shouts to him, man.

because I've been somebody who's been really down on his ability to be a more team concept-oriented player. But this year, he's proven me wrong and I'm happy. It's fun to watch him do what he's doing right now. That's a surprise. All of those areas are areas where he is playing into exactly what Minnesota needs him to be. Someone who can attack close-outs, someone who's going to rotate defensively, someone who's going to be a force without forcing it. And he's doing all of those things that's such a high-level. level right now that, you know, the hand-wringing is inevitable with a player as talented as him,

where at some point in the season, talking heads are going to be wondering, is he doing enough? Is he commanding the ball in the post as much as he should? Like, is Carlson Towns being the kind of star you want him to be? To which I say, if the wolves are winning like this and he's playing this hard, fuck the rest of it. Like, this is what he's supposed to be doing within the context of this version of the team. Yeah. I mean, they'll probably have to trade him in the offseason anyway because they're paying. just gobs of money to all of these different players,

but it's good for now. No, it's a financial problem that they're going to have to face at some point. 90 million at center is just not idea. It's just, you just. With Nas read and yeah, but it's working for now. And so they deserve all the credit in the world for that. Biggest disappointment now.

I mean, I think it has to be the Memphis Grizzlies. The team that we had ninth in our preseason power rankings, virtually unwatchable. It's just an absolute slog to even give this team couple of minutes. Like they've had some bright spots, Sonti El-Dama has been playing better of late. But like, here's the crazy part. They are three and 12. And you might be saying to yourself, oh, John Moran, coming back any day now, he still has 10 more games for his suspension.

They might not win a game until he gets back at that point. They're probably out of the mix here. So I would say the Grizzlies with an absolute bullet. Yeah, I was at least curious if there was some magic dust in Memphis that had allowed them, especially two years ago, to survive Jaws injury-related absences then. Could any of that translate? Was there something in the water?

Was there something in the developmental silo that the grizzlies have going here that made them acclimate to his absence more effectively? No is the answer to that. And it was, Tyos Jones is a really good backup point guard who's not there anymore. And apparently trying to replace him

with plugging in Marker Smart and hoping for the best, with overburdening Desmond Bain and Jaron Jackson Jr. It's not going to get it done on even a single game basis. You're right. They're so hard to watch. They are a slog every minute that they play. And I'm not even sure that John Morant jumping in midstream

is going to save everything that they have going wrong right now. It's not. We can be sure that it's not going to save this team. And I try to come up with like redeeming qualities. It's like, you know, The defense. Stuff like the defense. At least somewhat okay.

There might have been people scratching their head about the Bain deal. I'm like, no, like Desmond Bain deserved the extension that he got. Okay. I'm out of it. I'm out of redeeming qualities for this team. It's just been so horrible. And every team that's like trying to get off the Schneide as soon as they play these guys, they just feel great about themselves again and healthy.

it's been terrible. They're the biggest disappointment. Another disappointment for me personally is to Cleveland Cavaliers, honestly, because I just assume that they would come into the season. They'd be much better than a team like, oh, I don't know, the Knicks. And not only have they gotten their heads bashed in,

head-to-head against the Knicks, just generally, they're not a better team than the Knicks. They're just not. It's crazy to me that that's the case, considering the level of talent, the fact that they have three guys on that team who everybody thinks is deserving and destined for max deals, maxed extensions, and they can't be better than the New York Knickerbockers, that's nuts to me. And it's been very disappointing, disappointing to see.

And, you know, I don't want to talk about Rob's boy, but he's been disappointing. I've been disappointed in him, especially particularly with his offensive output. and so the calves were another personal disappointment for me. Yeah, my quote unquote boy being Evan Mobley in this case. Not a great Evan Mobley season. Not a great Cavalier season. And I'm with you while they were my pick as well. I think just because Memphis was so clearly a disaster from two or three games in,

once we actually saw them on the court, we're like, oh, no, no, no, this is going off the tracks immediately. Yeah. Cleveland, I was at least hoping they would pull it together. And I know they've, I know Mitchell, Garland, Alan, those guys have all missed, I think, five games apiece. Basically a third of the season, that's a real thing. But I would hope that a team with four all-star level guys, three guys, as was said,

who are destined for big contracts, if not Jared Allen, that they could manage to find some kind of balance when one of those guys is out. And they have not at all. And maybe worse than that, when all four of them have played, they're getting torched in those minutes. Torched.

It's one thing if some of those guys are out and you can kind of give them the benefit of the doubt. But a game's like the Lakers where Max Christie is starting and you have all your full compliment of all stars and you can't get it done. Like that's when it starts to get concerning. Max Christie's showing signs, Jess. Yeah.

We'll get to the Lakers in a little bit. At what point do we need to revisit the Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert? I don't think we're there yet. I don't think we're like within the next couple of months, but I think we have to have a conversation if this keeps going on for both teams. You're saying the Donovan Mitchell trade was a worst deal than a Ruehko Fair Trade. Well, I mean, no, I can't go there.

If we're looking at the bottom line, like we're looking at one good season for the Timberwolves right now, one good season for the calves, I think they're probably going to have to trade Mitchell in order to recruit some value. Whereas, like, in a weird way, Goubert having limited trade value after this means he's going to stay, which means he has more value in a very twisted way. And so I don't know.

Like, player for player, obviously Mitchell's the better player and the more valuable player, but I wonder if Goubert will give more value to the wolves than Mitchell did for the calves, ultimately. So to me, I think ultimately the calves gave up less for a player who is better. So, like, I'm always going to see it that way.

It felt like the Timberwolves literally gave up the farm because of new ownership. Marketing's pretty good. That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Especially when you consider what the disaster at three guard that's been happening over there, three men, excuse me. That's, you know what?

I always forget about the Lowry part because at the time of the trade, felt like a throw-in, a, you know, cap fodder. It felt like it. And then the guy became a freaking all-star. Oh. And he's legitimately a top-quality player. So, yeah, you know what? You kind of convinced me, man, because it's not just draft picks that, you know,

people on the internet like the circle jerk about whenever teams acquire them. It's actually proven NBA Hooper marketing. Yeah. It's tough. It's tough right now. Because right now, I think when at the time that Donovan Mitchell and the jazz were at their impasse, you know, we talked about him as if, oh, the next NBA superstar disgruntled is on the move. And he's going to change the fortunes of the team that he's on. And that ain't in the case.

Whose voice are you doing when you? Oh, yeah. This is a general sportscaster person. Breathless sportscaster. It's an amalgamation. And he has not been a game and life changed it for Cleveland. They didn't even just get beat in the first round. They got destroyed.

They got their dicks kicked in, as Tommy Marches Sr. used to say at halftime of a JV basketball game. And so they got destroyed. And now look at them right now. He has not dramatically changed the fortunes of that team. You know? What's the recovery timeline on getting your dick kicked in? at least till the next game

at least till the next game it'll grow back by the next game it's not a two to four weeks or something like that no no no just the next game it'll grow back and you'll be able to be a functioning human being again well I'm glad to hear it the good news

you know the good news posts getting their dicks kicked in every time they play the Knicks Cleveland does have the easiest remaining schedule of any team in the league they haven't played any of their games against the Bulls yet those could be even easier down the line if Chicago ends up making some traits. They have four games left against Washington.

They have three left against Detroit. You know, there could be sunnier times ahead to kind of get some of their overall metrics right and their team performance right. But the fact that they have no option at the three that's working right now is concerning to me, right? It's not even like there's a hidden gem that's like, oh, this one lineup

when they plug in this one guy, no. Max Drew's not working. Keros Levert, not working. None of these things are working the way that they should. That is a huge problem for a team that has this much talent. And it makes me really concerned about how they're going to be able

to put this thing together over the course of the year. Yeah. So speaking of the Knicks, I also have Julius Randall written down here. 38% from the floor. He is last

among qualifying players and field goal percentage. Not great. Also fourth worst and three point percentage. Just continuing the trend of him not being able to... That's a disappointment to you?

If only because he does reasonably well at it one year and then completely craters the next. I guess at this point, the pattern is so established that it shouldn't be surprised. It's just this bad. Such a clock to it.

Yeah. I also have written down here Bradley Beals' body. Three games played. Yeah. Good Lord, what a disappointment. Disappointment or meeting expectations. I guess all of these things should have been expected.

I got to give it to Rob on this. Rob was very skeptical that these guys would be able to bandage together these superstars enough to feel a real contending roster it's just been distressing I was somebody who thought that the Suns could be very

I thought they could be excellent this year at moments and but that was predicated on everybody playing Kevin Durant is MacGyvering that shit into wins and it's amazing yeah do you guys have any other written down here on the player side Andrew Wiggins

just a massive disappointment a massive disappointment and it's not just shot making, it's effort. And again, we've talked about it before, but I really hoped that he had turned a corner in his career and it seems he has not. Sorry, Ben.

Can I actually broaden that and say that the Warriors' top executives deserve the disappointment? Like, how hard is it to build a ready-made title contender, considering the assets they had available for them around Stefan Curry? They have failed so dramatically

at getting the right pieces around this guy to extend his prime, in a way that's just confusing. Like, we bagged on Rob Polinka for everything with Russell Westbrook and all that. But, like, I think the Warriors are, like, getting into that level of territory.

Like, this has been pretty bad. How do you not get a true holiday in there? How do you not, like, trade some of these young guys to get another superstar in? They had the means for it. And then here we are just, like, slogging through another season. It's embarrassing.

Well, this is a great lead-in into our next category, which is, like, what pre-season take do you want to mulligan on? What take do you want to pull back already. And for me, it's my faith in the Warriors as the second best team in the West. I kind of took my skepticism in the Lakers and the Suns as a reason to lean into the Warriors and trust a veteran group that in my mind, like, you have the addition by subtraction of losing

Jordan Pool, you're getting Chris Paul, which would hopefully improve the bench and actually has. But I think the lesson of not trusting the Lakers and the Suns should have been maybe look elsewhere, maybe look at the Thunder, maybe look at the Wolves. Like, clearly those. teams are working in a way that the Warriors right now are not. So I'm with you. I think there's the sentimental end of Warriors basketball operations in the sense of what do you do with Clay Thompson? What do you do a dream on green?

What do you do with these guys who are entrenched members of the championship core? Those are thorny questions. But how you manage the draft picks that became James Wiseman and Jonathan Cumminga, how you dealt with Jordan Poole and ultimately traded him? you know, what's become of Moses Moody, who I think has been solid, but only solid. And the fact that basically the best player that you've gotten out of that group that's like a meaningful lasting part of this team is just kind of solid, it is a failure of management, right?

There is a mishandling of the assets that they had beyond the core of that team. And that should have been where this thing got easier over time. And instead it's only gotten more difficult. So for me, and this is why I always rail against the, the freaking altar worshipping of quote-un-quote assets that we do collectively as a fandom and as a media when teams acquire them. These quote-unquote assets become people who are James Wiseman. Okay. So when it's the number two pick in the draft, it's like, oh my God, this shiny object, they acquired the number two pick.

This is going to be amazing. And oftentimes, and I would argue more times than not, they become players who are maybe marginally better than James Wiseman is or even Jonathan Kamenga at the sixth pick. Like, people become enamored of these things. And they think that these lottery tickets are, you're better sir trying to cash in that lottery ticket than bringing in a proven commodity who's not a certain. who's not a sexy name, you know, you're not going to get first team all-N-BA, quote-unquote, value on a rookie deal and all of that crap. But guess what?

They're going to help Steph Curry do his job better. You know, the greatest play in the history of the franchise. God has brought you immense amount of fortune, both in trophies and financially, right? Like, you can use those assets to bolster what that guy is doing. Or you can get, you know, You start thinking about the quote unquote future, a future that obviously does not exist.

James Wiseman and ain't even on the team. And Jonathan Kaminga, nobody thinks he's going to be the future, you know, sort of cornerstone of anybody's franchise. And so here we are. And now, you know, they ended up getting rid of Wiseman for pennies,

for peanuts. Can't play on the pistons. Yeah. Like, what are they going to do with Kaminga? I don't blame them for going through the draft and trying to build a longer runway that way. I blame them for not getting those picks right

if that is your choice. It's probably a reason why Bob Myers has retreated to the ESPN booth while all of these fires just sprout out around them. If they had just picked, for instance, Lamello Ball, like can you consider the type of team this one?

Tyree's Halliburton is the one that gets brought up, but I don't even think he would have been in the range. That seems like a little bit of a stretch to ding him for not, ding the Warriors for that. But like Ball was right there and waiting for them. And he would have been just a beautiful fit. into this system, a guy who can handle the ball,

shoot it, and just like not getting any of these picks right is just remarkable of how much of a failure that is. This is why you guys will never be billionaires. You just don't have the light years mentality that's required to do the hard work around here. I guess. And to speak to Justin's point, at the time,

what they, with management and sort of curb was saying about ball, was that he, quote, unquote, wasn't a warrior's, type of player. By the way, not in game in temperament, allegedly.

Because if it comes to basketball IQ, passing, shooting, he's a warrior's player. He is. There's no two ways about that.

Like, moving the ball and, like, bro, it's obvious he would have worked. Yeah, the further you go down in the draft,

I agree, it's kind of unfair in a sense to expect them to use the number two pick on someone like Tyreys Halliburton, but,

I mean, even if you had ended up with, a congoo instead of James Wiseman, right? Even if you had traded down and you picked Tyrese Maxi, your life is so much different and so much better potentially than it is now. If you end up with Devin Vassell,

like you could, there's so many players in that draft who have become actual real NBA things, like standbys, that the idea that they whipped and got absolutely nothing is, is brutal. And look, think about,

well, hold on. Think about how good the thunder have been in that same time span. They have gotten more. Jalen Williams is right than the Warriors have gotten just draft picks. They are better at drafting Jalen Williams' than the Warriors are at drafting

NBA players. That's insane. And if you want to take the two-timeline approach, I agree, Justin. You have to be held accountable for who you select. You do have the benefit of playing the longer game that we always talk about and deferring expectations and deferring accountability. But look, it's hell for job security, y'all.

It is. But the check has come due. And as Justin alluded to, Bob Myers is no longer in that job. I think by his own choice, in addition to some pressures that come with it. And not a fun position to be in having to make a lot of those high pressure calls. And a lot of GMs will tell you the fun part is the building of the contender, not the maintaining of the contender. It seems like miserable work. But the Warriors are where they are.

And they dug their way here. Yeah. Wise, do you have any Morgans? So I went back and I looked at teams. that I thought were going to be good, players that I handed out awards to. And if I'm really honest, the one that I want to take back the most

is when Binyama is rookie of the year. I picked him before the season to win the rookie of the year. That clearly... That clearly was not the right choice. I shouldn't have did that, y'all. I don't know what I was thinking, going up against the Great White Hope

up in the prairie. I want to take that one back. I want to take that back right now. I don't know why I did that. Chet Holmgren with a bullet is rookie of the year, but I did pick when being the preseason. I need a mulligan on that one, fellas. Set the record straight, right?

Wow. Wow. You should have stuck to your principals. Just got chet every award he was eligible for. You got bullied by the internet for not believing in your principles. But yeah, no. Wembe still playing pretty decently. It's not like he's like, oh, he's freaking awful now.

It's just Chet is like playing incredible and he's doing it against some of the best teams in the freaking NBA. Like, how do you ignore that? Yeah, there's one series against the Sixers where I believe Chet, like, what the fuck did he do? Oh, what was the first play of that? He like made a three, came down, blocked somebody at the rims. came down, pick and roll, dunked it on somebody's head. Yeah, it was like three consecutive possessions. It was just like, wow, this guy pretty nice, pretty special.

And he just does those things on a pretty regular basis. Again, like two and three minutes stretches of games against competitive teams that he himself utterly dominates. As often the third or fourth or even fifth's option sometimes in some of these lineups. But realistically, the main mulligan, because like disappointment in mulligan kind of got blurred for me. Thinking Memphis was going to be very good this year. I would definitely like to take that back, but we have already discussed that. Don't besmirch the outline, please.

So for Mulligan, I had the Bulls, and I had to look back at our preseason rankings. Oddly enough, I had them lowest among the three of us, and yet somehow during the podcast became the person defending their honor. But I did make the case at the very least that the veteran competence and what they had toward the end of last season might be able to roll into this season.

Clearly, that is not the case. If anything, the thing that carried over is just Zach Levine's discontent. And it just seems like he wants out of there very much in Eric Bledsoe, get me out of here in the salon sort of situation. I don't want to be here anymore. Is that what it was? I don't want to be here anymore. And then said later on that he was in a salon, which we didn't know how good we had it. honestly. Yeah, we really didn't.

So I would say the Bulls, I guess to a certain extent, the Nets and the Jazz as well. I was a little higher on the Jazz than you guys. They're clearly one of the worst teams. Although they put it on the Pelicans the night before we record this podcast. So maybe that's just a late intake that's going to come to bear. They're about to turn the corner. They turn in the corner. Did you see how they accomplish that, though?

I did, yes. Mostly by like benching a bunch of players and starting like kind of a bit, starting lineup. You know, Simone Fontecchio, Omer Yerziven, NBA starters in a real game against the New Orleans Pelicans. And it worked. Like the message sent, you know, this is a team that

was not playing with a lot of urgency or a lot of cohesiveness for the last couple weeks. So it's good to see signs of life from the Utah Jazz again. Yeah. All right. Last question on the docket here. Whose stock are you buying low on from this point for either a player or a team?

Rob, who do you have? I'll take your Jeremy Sohan stock if you're looking to unload it at this point. Interesting. Not as a point guard, but as someone who will benefit from the experience of playing point guard. At the end of the day, I trust guys who know how to play.

And Jeremy Sohan clearly knows how to play. He just doesn't know how to play this position. So ultimately, years from now, maybe even months from now, toward the end of the season, he'll get put into a more natural role. And I think he's going to look better

for having played point guard a little bit. This isn't anyone's long-term solution. I think even the spurs are pretty honest about that. It's more, how do we get time for our young guys? How do we find a place for Sohanan in a rotation that otherwise doesn't have a great place for him? But he's such a great cutter. He's such a great facilitator.

He's such a high effort defender. I have a hard time believing that guy is not going to be an impactful NBA player. He's just going to have to play at a different position than point guard. I'll take your word for it. I had virtually the entire Spurs supporting cast under my biggest disappointment.

I have to say, looking back on the pop yelling at the fans thing, like to admonish the fans for booing while you're basically soft tanking by playing a bunch of guys out of position in order to give them reps for like a year or two down the road. Like, how do you, how do you like square both of those things together? Yeah, but I agree. I think Sohan is a good player. It's just I don't know what they're doing with him right now. Yeah.

But I think those conversations are getting conflated where everyone is so angry about him playing point guard it's all you hear about in regard to his game when the reality is this is a guy who is willingly taken on the responsibility of doing something he knows he's not good at for the sake of trying to fit in and trying to help the team and trying to develop as a player

and I think he's going to do some of those things but helping the team clearly isn't one of them at least in the short term wins and losses sense hopefully it helps in terms of bringing this team together in the sense of what it ultimately needs to be. Yeah. Well, so do you have? And this is a slightly weird one because the Clippers have won like five of six at this point.

But I think pretty much everybody after they got smoked the first seven games of the Hardin experience, pretty much everyone moved on and like, oh, this is not a thing I need to take seriously anymore. But, you know, as indicative of their record more recently, and if you just watch them, the team makes more sense now. It's a real like NBA ecosystem in a sense that James is definitely the point guard. Paul George has been their main attack player. He's their baby Shay in a way, which is kind of hilarious because She was the baby on this team.

That's like your looper becoming your baby self. I know. But he's their main attack player. right? He's their go-to scorer right now. And Kauai is doing stuff off of rotations and second-side stuff and against the

Mavs last night. I saw James Hardin catch a swing or a skip pass and immediately catch square, shoot the rock. Like these are things that real NBA teams and offenses do and slowly but surely the clippers are turning

into that. Now, how long any of these people are actually going to be on the court, I don't know. But I think, like, as so long as these guys are playing, they're taking shape as a actual NBA, really good team. And so definitely I'm buying low on the Clippers right now. This is a big swore for you, Waz. Yeah, you know, I'm saying, you were as down on the Clippers as anybody.

Yeah. Yeah, but it's changing, though. Yeah. Hardin saying that he needed more time to ramp up was absurd, but also probably true. Like, you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, but you probably needed the benefit of that scenario because, yeah, he seems to be rounding into shape and to form as these games have going along. Company time.

I mean, he's certainly not going to round into shape on his own time. We know that about him. That's true. So I have the sons who I referenced earlier, despite like piecing lineups together, we got Cato Bates job all of a sudden starting these games. Grace and Allen probably one of the ones. probably one of the most important players on the team at this point because he's one of the wings out there available to play.

But through it all, 10 and 6, 8th in that rating in the entire NBA, and I think as Rob alluded to before, it's mostly a credit to Kevin Durant's just continued brilliance. 31 points per game, 7 and a half rebounds, 5 assists, 53, 52, 89 shooting percentage is just one of the best shooting percentages in the last two shooting percentages in the just like having a MVP caliber season yet again. I am very fearful for his lower limbs at this point because he's playing a lot of minutes and a lot of the minutes that Bradley Beal was expected to soak up

so he didn't have to do this. Playing great defense too. Really working as a rim protector in rotation, giving them a lot on both ends of the court right now, Kevin Durant is. Yep. Anybody else we need to mention here? Is that everybody you have?

That was it for me. I didn't have anything. snazzy as Sohan, revenge you to Sohan. I don't have anything that's snazzy. For the record, I think you could pull off the Rodman-Sohan style dyed hair was. Have you ever, have you ever bleached it out? No, I've never really considered it. It's just not the type of thing.

It's like this idea that I walk into a room with pink hair and everybody's automatically just staring at me just makes my skin crawl. Like, I just couldn't, I couldn't do that. I don't have the stomach for that type of attention from strangers. So, nah. Rob could do it. Well, I mean, you know, if in our future, hypothetically speaking, there is a live group chat show at some point.

I think all three of us should do it. I'll wear a wig. I will not actually die on my joint, but I'll rock a wig. No problem. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Jack Sanders. I'm production.

Thank you, Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Monday. We'll be back on Monday.