The Ringer NBA Show - One Thing for Every Team With Bill Simmons, Part 2 (Ep. 184)

Episode Date: December 27, 2017

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and The Ringer’s Kevin O’Connor discuss one topic for each of the 30 teams in the NBA. In Part 2, they break down teams with records over .500. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show with Bill Simmons and Kevin O'Connor, part two of our breakdown of the NBA on The Ringer. Podcast Network brought to you by CKeekeek, the presenting sponsor of the Bill Simmons podcast for $20 off your first CKeekeek purchase on NBA tickets. Use promo code BSNBA. Download the CKick app or go right to CKeekeek.com. On my podcast, Paul Thomas Anderson, this week, I'm also on the One Shining podcast with Mark Titus and Tate Frasier. I don't know why we're doing so many podcasts. I hope people are listening. Are people listening to podcasts this week, Isaac?

Isaac's nodding. All right. Kevin O'Connor, we talked about the under 500 teams in part one of this. Basically, I just brought up a team, and we said the first thing that came to our mind. And now we're going to do the over 500 teams, of which there are a lot. There's a lot of teams in that 17 and 16 type of range, 18 and 15, 15, 19 and 15. 19 and 14. The first one, the Miami Heat.

Miami. 17 and 16. Here's my one thing for them. And I think I'm biased because I watch every cell at the game. And for whatever reason, Miami is a nightmare matchup for them. Miami is a team that if you catch them on the right night and you were with somebody who just woke up from a coma four years ago and they watched a Miami Heat game with you,

you could convince that person that they're one of the four best teams in the league. league. But if you catch them on another night, same situation. You could convince that person that they're one of the four worst teams in the league. They're the highest ceiling, lowest basement team on league pass from night to night. And they have all these guys that I kind of like, you know, who can on the right night look great, but they can't seem to get all of them humming together. Now, White's side's been hurt. That hasn't helped them. But I have my eye in them as a potential climber as this season goes along. What's your one thing about Miami? Kind of along the same lines where you say they have the highest ceiling, lowest floor.

I look at that team, and there's not a lot of guys that I love. I look at the money, you know, the money some of these guys make, Tyler Johnson, making $19 million next season when his contract goes up just seems insane to me. Yeah, it was. Josh Richardson making 9.4 next season goes out to 11.6, and that's not a lot, but he hasn't developed like you would have hoped for after his impressive rookie season. So it's like they have some expensive guys who really aren't players that you're in love with. Kelly Olenick making 11 million next year goes up to 12 by the end of the contract.

I don't know. I mean, they have some likable guys, but not a lot of lovable guys. White side's the X factor for them because he's the one guy they have who has a chance to make an NBA team. Is Justice Winslow, what's his ceiling to you now? If you had to say, here's the best case scenario for Justice Winslow's career. What is it? Well, I think pre-draft, it would have factored in the improvement of the three-point shot. And this year, he shot 39% in 27 games.

Right now he's out. But I think if he were to theoretically sustain that, I think that that would be very, very good for him. At the same time, I'm not sure his game overall has developed at the level that you would have hoped for. I kind of saw him prior to the draft as someone in the, mold of a Draymond type, versatile defensively, handles the ball offensively, can spot up and hit threes at a solid level. But he hasn't really at all gotten to that level. I say that,

but on the other hand, you can say that Winslow, maybe he's not in the right situation right now, where they have a dominant room protector and Hassan Whiteside. Maybe in a different situation, if Winslow's playing more small ball five, he does more like resemble the player that I just a scribe. So with him, I do think there's still a high ceiling, but I wonder if the situation, the circumstances just aren't perfect for him to get there, because Dreymoan fell into a perfect situation for him to become the player that he's become. And situation, environment, and opportunity factors so heavily into success where I wonder if Winslow just hasn't really fallen to the right situation in addition to his shot, not developing to the level that it's needed

to. I wonder, like you, if he's on the right team, because there's ball dominant guys on this team. Or guys that for them to succeed, the play has to run for them. Like Wayne Ellington, somebody who's not ball dominant, but when he's out there, they run them around circles, a little JJ Redick style. But Dragich and Dion Waiters are,

you know, they like to have the ball. They like to do stuff with it. Even somebody like Kelly Olinick, like is really his best attribute is to shoot. And I would love to see Winslow on a team where he was able to, like, if we were

able to find out if he was more of a playmaker because I have no idea. He's kind of in the corner. I should have put him on my article on Tuesday with guys I would target it and trade. Winslow is another guy that I would put on there where I would be willing to bet that perhaps in different circumstances he would look a lot better than he does in Miami. And that's not a knock against Miami. It's just their given situation with the players that they have. Yeah. The opportunity just hasn't been there. Yeah. And that's the NBA. Sometimes you just land on the wrong team. I'm not giving up on him. We have three other 17 and 16 teams to run. through. Portland, 17 and 16. I think Lillard finally makes the all-star team is my note for them.

I've never been a gigantic Lillard fan, and I was wondering, like, what's your upside if he's your best and highest-paid player? But I have liked how he's played this year. And I think for what he is, this is the best possible version of him, and I think he's going to make the all-star team. What's your one thing for them? Zach Collins. He was a total zero early in the season, but he's been playing a lot more lately, and he's been a lot better. A good example of a young play. where you can't overreact at all to the first 20 games because they traded 15 and 20 for him and he's looked better as of late for Portland. So you would take him over Donovan Mitchell?

No. Okay. The New York Knicks are 17 and 16. It's a feel-good team. My thing for them is Enos Cantor. And I can't remember if I said this last week on the ringer NBA show, so I might be repeating myself. But I was really frustrated last postseason when I was. everyone was telling me that Inus Canter couldn't play in any of the playoff games.

And meanwhile, they're just getting waxed anyway. I just feel like there's always going to be a place for somebody who can rebound and score. And if he has deficiencies on the other end, fine. Lots of people have deficiencies. When you're in a situation like OKC was last year where they barely had enough competent rotation guys to make it in a playoff series, to hear them basically say, Inis Canter can't play, seem crazy. I think anybody who is capable of what he did on Christmas Day with the 3,

31-22. It's just hard for me to digest it. Like, I couldn't play in a playoff series. And, you know, I think sometimes we overthink it with these guys. If you have one or two gigantic skills and your team's not that good, you got to figure out how to maximize those one or two gigantic skills. The Knicks, it's a perfect fit for him. We talk about bad situation for Winslow.

Him playing with Porzingis is a really nice fit. He feeds off the crowd. The city's right for him. The chemistry in that team is really good. And I like watching him, and I'm glad he's on the right team. What's your one thing for the next? We always talk about Porzengis, so I'm not going to talk about him. So it's Frank Nili Kina.

I think with him, there was an interesting discussion on Twitter the other day where someone made the point that he needs to learn to attack the basket consistently. And that's 100% true for him to take the next step. But I think with Frank Nile Kina, I would encourage anybody who's worried about his production early in the season. go back and read articles or watch video of him last season overseas and compare to where he is now, he has gotten so much better as a ball handler. And his passing has improved a hell of a lot too. I think his improvement from 18 years old to 19 years old is quite significant.

So yes, he needs to get a lot better to become the lead guard that the Knicks need. But his improvement is extremely encouraging from where he was to where he is now. I've been impressed by him. He's probably the best point guard defender in the league. For rookies or all point guards. I'm trying to think there's two minutes left in the game and I need a pure point guard to at least bother Kyrie Irving,

to at least stay in front of him and make him work. And if he's going to get a shot, so be it. But at least he's going to have to work his ass off to get it. Who would you pick at point card? Maybe Chris Paul, Patrick Beverly. Well, Patrick Beverly's gone. Yeah, he's gone.

And I don't think it's Chris Paul anymore. Lowry would be up there. I don't know, man. I think I might pick Frankie. Yeah, to your point, he's in the conversation. Yeah. Right? I mean, I don't know if he's the guy you pick, but he's up there.

I think that that's another thing that says a lot about where he is, where he's one of those guys where even if he doesn't get any better offensively from where he is, he's at least going to be a guy in your rotation because his defense is so good. There's only two guys. I mean, I've just enjoyed the living hell out of the Kyrie experience this year, and he's such a thrill to watch. There's only been two guards the whole season that have really kind of made him work to get where he wanted to go. He still gets there because nobody can stop him. Frank was one.

Yeah, Avery Bradley's the other one. And he's still going to get to where he wants to go, but at least those guys make him have to reach into his bag of tricks. He's incredible. Another 17 and 16 team, the New Orleans Pelicans. You could argue that they have two All-Star games starters on this team. You could argue Boogie and Davis. I'm going to read you the list.

Hardin and Durant, I think, are definitely starters, right? Yep. Westbrook is definitely a starter because Curry's hurt? Or do you think Curry has that spot? I think Westbrook probably ends up starting. Yeah. I don't feel good about it. But Westbrook has been really good the last two weeks.

He's been unbelievable. Now, the only thing. other spots, there's two spots for these three guys, Lamarcus Aldridge, Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis. And I think those two New Orleans guys, I think those have to have to the thing. I mean, my one thing for New Orleans is they hit the jackpot in the 2012 draft. That drop off from Anthony Davis to Michael Kidd Gilchrest is about as dramatic as it's going to get in a draft from one to two.

It's in the top six or seven all time for biggest, biggest goutherst. And then the Boogie Cousins trade, they won convincingly, repeat convincingly, and yet they're 17 and 16. It's appalling how bad of a roster they put around those guys. It's almost like impossible that they can't even get to like a C minus with the supporting cast. And I still think if they can get in the playoffs, I do not want to play that team in a playoff series. He can beat him. Golden State's going to be able to beat him. So is Houston. But it just sucks to being a playoff series where the other team might have two of the best guys in the court in every quarter.

So I'm interested by them. I've been watching them trying to figure out what their upside is and I can't figure it out. What do you have for your one New Orleans thing? We mentioned weirdest roster in the first podcast when we were talking about Phoenix. I mentioned Sacramento. New Orleans is another one with their weird team. And that's kind of the first thing that comes to mind with them. just the roster construct with Rondo, Etouin Moore and Drew Holiday all on the starting five.

It's just a weird team with a weak bench. You mentioned their team. They've been really good offensively. They have the seventh best offensive rating at the time we're recording this, but they have the 24th best or rather seventh worst defensive rating in the league. Defense is the issue for that team. And I think that's going to be the issue you see with a lot of teams having two defensive bigs, Can they effectively defend the perimeter and contain penetration?

That's always going to be the question anytime you're going with two more interior big men in today's league. Not that that's the singular issue with their defense, but I think it's one of the issues on that end of the floor where I'm not sure the solutions come from within their roster. I think they might have to come externally. So a couple interesting December trends for them, which is one of the reasons that I've been kind of monitoring them. Drew Holiday is playing really well, at least in the month of December. He's putting up 22, 5, and 5, basically. 52% making threes, 44% from three. Probably the best month he's had in a long time.

Now, we know it Drew Holiday, never to trust Drew Holiday, that the moment it looks great, he pulls a hamstring or something bad will happen. The other guy that has played really well for them is Etouin Moore, who in the month of December is making, 58% of his threes, almost three a game, and scoring 60 in a game. Now, do I think Etouin Moore's going to last? Probably not. I don't think you do either. But on paper, they have kind of a big four for at least the month of December. And then it's like it falls off a cliff after that. They can't really make a trade because they can't trade their first round pick. Nobody wants

their contracts. Maybe they could do a money trade where they give up, you know, couple of their bad contracts for even worse contracts, if they're really worried that cousins is going to leave, that would be risky. But as a team in December, they're making 13.3s a game and shooting 45% from three. So from an upside standpoint, I think them and OKC have been the two teams in the West that at least have kind of reconfigured the narrative a little bit. Do you believe in Drew Holiday? Do you believe he plays for another six weeks, healthy? It's like the Gallinari discussion where can he stay healthy. I'm more worried about their three-point shooting and how sustainable it actually is more so than Holiday.

I mean, they're the fourth best three-point percent into the league so far this season. I'm not quite sure that's going to stick. Guys like you mentioned, Etouin Moore shooting the hell out of the ball. Not the only guy, Darius Miller shooting 46 percent from three. I just don't know how sustainable that is. And that was one of the big questions before the season. Can they create enough spacing on the offensive end with Boogie and Davis having two bigs? And granted, those guys can shoot as well.

I do question how sustainable that's going to be. Denver, 18 and 15. I guess my one thing for them is they had all these different chances to get a point card and they still don't have one. And they traded their best point guard, Javier Nelson. But it's a bummer. I think we're at the point now with Jamal Murray where for them to have any sort of growth at all as a team, that's the growth spot, right?

Yolka is playing pretty well. in general, I think most of their guys are kind of where we thought they would be, but the one gross spot is Jamal Murray. You've been chronicling him since he was in college. Where do you stand these days? Are you buying or selling Jamal Murray? I'd buy stock in the sense that, you know, last month I wrote an article talking about a three-point shooting, how poor it's been.

It feels like ever since then it's been like a reverse ring or curse where he's shooting 52% from three in December. And yes, again, that's not sustainable. That'll fall off. But he's a guy where he is a hell of a shooter. He's been a great shooter in high school, great shooter in college, great shooter in every level of competition he's played. So I think for him, it's only a matter of time until he does elevate his play on the

offensive end as a shooter. And once that happens, maybe it opens things up. It gives them another player. He's somebody you could use in that kind of Redick-esque role off screens, but he's also a really good ball handler. and he has really good passing instincts where he can run secondary pick and roll for you. He's not your lead guard. But at the same time, maybe with that type of roster, with Yokic, he's one of your primary

playmakers, you don't need maybe a traditional lead guard. Maybe that's why they didn't really go out and try to get it because they do feel like with Murray, with Yokic, even Will Barton, that they have enough playmakers that they can really survive without having that go-to traditional lead ball handler. If that's what they're thinking, I totally get it. But I do think right now it certainly doesn't look great, but maybe as Murray does develop, and maybe Will Barron if he sticks around as Yokic continues getting better, maybe it works out having a multi-ball handler offense like that.

Their defense has been as bad as I thought it was going to be in our preseason pod. You were hoping it wasn't going to be that bad, but I think you kind of knew. It might be headed that way. The 18th best defensive rating, sometimes it feels like they're a lot worse than 18th. They have, yeah, when you watch them, they have stretches where they just completely fall apart. where it's like, oh my God, it's a layup line. I was looking at the West All-Stars, which we talked about a little bit before, and Yokic is probably the 12th bubble pick right now.

I have Hardin, Durant, Curry, Aldridge, Boogie, Anthony Davis, Westbrook, Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Clay Thompson, who I always just pocket put him in. I think he's become too underrated. And Yolkich is the 12th, but I think the 12th could go in a variety of directions. Milwaukee's 17 and 14. I don't know what to make of this team. And to be honest, Buck's Twitter is probably the angriest Twitter of any of the 30 NBA teams.

I had Ben Thompson on my podcast last week, gave him 60 seconds to talk about Jason Kidd, and he went for five. They cannot stand Jason Kidd. They feel like he's ruining the team. They feel like they are wasting an epic, unbelievable Yonah season, which they are to some degree. But on the other hand, you look at their team and, you know, Middleton, Bledso, both of those guys are Middleton is a 20 point score. Bletso is almost a 20 point score. Jabari has the capability of being a 20 point score if his knees can get healthy and Janus is averaging 30. And there's just,

there's pieces on this team and it's a conference that after the top three drops, I don't know. Would you, do you think this is Jason Kids fall? Well, I'll say last week or a week and half ago whenever it was Jason Kidd instructed Chris Middleton to miss the free throw when they were off. I was watching that. I mean, I think that says all you need to know. There's two seconds left. Yeah. It says all you need to know. He didn't want to give up a four point play, then tell all you guys get out of bounds. What are you doing? Beats me, man. I don't know what are you thinking. What's your one thing for the bucks? I don't know. It's just, Janus is unbelievable. I mean, it's kind of generic. It's obvious, but I'm just loud by him. He's probably

my favorite player in the league to watch right now. And he's still not shooting the ball at the level he potentially could be. 27.5% from three. Just imagine him shooting 37.5% from three. He's unbelievable. I'm happy to be alive at the same time. Yana Sant'a Kumpo is entering his prime.

I think his hands are too big. I think that ball must feel like a golf ball on his hands. He can't redirect it. We were talking in part one, we were talking about Embed versus Hakeem and stuff like that. You're too young to remember young Hakeem, although he lives on.

in YouTube. The stuff Yannis does defensively is what young Hakeem was like. A lot of the stuff he does on that end reminds me of Hakeem and David Robinson too, where it's just like, just a complete freak athlete who seems to be a split second ahead of everybody else on the defensive end. And you're like, holy shit, oh my God, oh. I mean, Yannis has turned into, he's replaced LeBron as the kind of alpha dog of the, I didn't realize that guy was behind me blocks He's like, there's probably the most exciting recurring play in the league is him catching somebody from behind. I'm with you. I really hope they figure this out.

And I think they have the highest upside of anyone in the East because of him. Because, you know, he can go toe to toe with LeBron in a seven-game series and at least like maybe play him close to a stalemate. All right. Next one, Wizz, another team with high upside. The WIS, 19 and 15, not great. But I was on that 82 games.com thing, 8 and 11 in close games. No come from behind potential, really. They've four and nine in games when they fell behind by 10.

I don't know. I watched them yesterday, and it seems like when their guns are blazing, the Wall and Beale combo, it still has to be taken seriously. Like, the Celtics wanted to win that game on Christmas, and Wall and Bill just, they were down five with five minutes left. They just took over the game, and that was that. So they kind of seem to be the sleeping giant of the East. And at the same time, their bench is so bad.

And their coaching is so weird sometimes that I could also see them being the biggest disappointment in the East. What would your bet be? You know, I'm kind of in the middle of them where I'm not super high on them because of their bench. But at the same time, I do think, like, you look at the development of some of their guys. Like, Otto Porter has continued to get better. He sustained his three-point shooting. Kelly Ubre has really taken a jump this year. He's the guy that almost enables them to play more small ball.

like they did at the end of that game against the Celtics here the night. Ubrey's been great. He deflects a lot of balls in the passing lanes, defends multiple positions effectively, had hit spot-up threes. He hit that big shot towards the end of the game on Monday. I think Ubrey has really developed closer into the player that you would have hoped to see this year for Washington,

and he's still only 22 years older. Ubre has turned into a two-way player coming off their bench. So granted their bench stinks. Ubre is a really, really good bench player to have. a guy who can finish games for you. So if they can find another bench piece, maybe they have suddenly a much more complete-looking roster just by adding one more guy.

And it seems like he's bought them some time trying to figure out what to do with Marquiv Morris, who hasn't been that great this year. You know, last year they're kind of trapped with him. This year, they can play, as you said, they can play Porter and Ubrae together in crunch time and not have to worry about throwing UBray in that spot. I mean, don't forget last year,

I thought this was the biggest mistake of the playoffs by Brooks You only played everybody three minutes in that game seven, right? Something like that. Yeah. Mistake. Pretty low. Mistake. Detroit is 18 and 14.

The ringer has been blamed for, there's a belief out in the internet's that there's a ringer curse that when we write about a team or a player, bad things happen to them. It's like it follows or like one of those Blumhouse production movies where as soon as we write about somebody, the opposite happens. I wish we had that much power. I'd be gambling on it. But we did write about Detroit right before the wheels came off. It was a team when I was watching them.

I didn't totally understand how they were playing that well. And I think the league does kind of figure out certain things about certain teams by about the 20 game mark. That's a team people have figured out. My question for them is, Fian Gundy now is year three. And this is now a team that even though he's milked about as much as he can milk out of the nuclear. he has, it's really not that good of a team, what do you do? And especially, it's not even a what do you do. I think it's more like, what do you think he's going to do? Because we've seen as, especially the coach GM combo guys, they get more and more impatient, the longer it goes where they

don't get the results they want. And it's usually those are the teams that make the panic trade or the big swing trade or whatever. Do you see Detroit with some sort of big blockbuster, something that we're shocked by. My question would be with what? I mean, what are you going to flip? I mean, is Andre Drummond really a piece that people would trade? I don't think so. There's Reggie Jackson, probably not.

Is Avery Bradley? No. Stanley Johnson hasn't played himself into becoming a super value asset, and Luke Kennard hasn't yet either. So their first round picks aren't super valuable enough. I don't know where the solutions are. I think if you're Detroit, you're going to get locked into your roster this coming summer, assuming you resign Avery Bradley to anything, you know,

even if it's 15 million, that's probably on the low end. Even if it's like that, you're locking yourself pretty much into the roster that you have until the 2019 summer when Tobias Harris is up and some other guys are up as well. They're in a weird spot where there's not a lot that they can do. I think they almost just need to bank on some of these young guys, Stanley Johnson, Luke Kinnard, really developing and getting better. Unless that doesn't happen, though, I'm not sure where the solutions are. There's not a lot of roads to take. Well, I'm with you. The only blockbuster move would be if Drummond was in something, and I can't even figure out what that would be. I do think they're a panic trade waiting

to happen, and if I was a GM on another team, I would be trying to take Stanley Johnson from them, because especially this month, he was playing well as a defense kind of rebounding athlete guy when they were playing well, and people have been giving him the Robberson treatment. He is in the month of December shooting 33%, 30% from three, which you just, now you're playing four and five, can't put them out there in crunch time and expect anything good to happen. And on the other side, he's 21 years old, you know, and he has the pedigree of being a top eight lottery pick. And if we've seen over and over again in NBA history, the best traits to make are grabbing

somebody else's top eight high pedigree, A-list lottery talent that it just didn't work out for whatever reason. You'd do a little change of scenery and all of a sudden they got. guys, fine. I'll be interested to see if somebody can pry him away for some immediate help, because the other thing is Avery Bradley, who has not shot that well and has had moments for them, but I don't think has been as effective for them as he was for Boston last year. He's an expiring contract. So they could also go the other way and use his expiring contract with another contract to try to shed some salary. But I don't know. They're kind of a no man's land. Would you try to trade

for Stanley Johnson if you're a GM on a lottery team? Yeah, Stanley Johnson, another one, him and Winslow. If I'm totally candid, the only reason I left those two guys' office, because I feel like I've written about those two dudes so much where it almost be repetitive. So I put on some new faces for the article. Stanley Johnson and Justice Winslow, those are two guys I've loved a lot since college. I wouldn't give up on either of them. Similar mold, similar defensive first players with developing offensive games.

I like Winslow more, but Stanley's another one where he could be really good as well. Both really good athletes. The thing I like about Johnson is he'll go into traffic and get big-ass rebounds, you know? He just can't shoot yet. I don't know. It just seems like we can teach almost anybody to shoot except Andrea Roberson these days. Quick break to talk about Masterclass. Masterclass has a range of online video courses taught by some of the best individuals in their field like Samuel L. Jackson on acting.

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You can unlock every class from over 30 masters all for the price of two. NBA listeners get Stefan's Masterclass or the AllExus class at Masterclass.com slash NBA. Learn from the best in the world at masterclass.com slash NBA. Okay. C. 19 and 15. You know, they just have a lot. They have Westbrook and Paul George are really, really good. And they have to be taken seriously. And it seems like they've figured out that my one thing for them is they've now figured out that it's not a big three.

it's Westbrook's team and Paul George is a swingman and Carmelo is one of the other guys. And it took them 30 games to get there, but they got there and that this is the team they are. And the more Westbrook takes control like he has, the better off they're going to be. Trying to split everything evenly between the three guys was a mistake. And I think they realized that now. What's your one thing? What's kind of one in two, I think for one, their defense is for real. I think, you know, considering the fact that we are almost into January now, they have so many

guys on that end of the floor who can defend one-on-one, who play strong team defense, who play with effort, I think that defense is absolutely for real. And kind of attached to that thought, if you do consider that their defense is for real, and it is versatile and do so much on that end, if their offense continues making progress like it has this past week-ish, you know, Westbrook has really elevated his play, both in terms of scoring efficiency, making smart passes, good decisions, playing with Morif at himself on the defensive end. what can they be? Like, they can be, they could be tremendous by April if their offense continues building and continues making more and more progress because their defense is their foundation and

because that does allow them to, I think, stay in games. If their offense gets on the level that you need, they could be a real threat. I mean, people are talking about Houston as a team. Maybe they can topple Golden State. Maybe by April people are talking about Oklahoma City as, well, could they be a threat to Golden State? Because nobody's really talking about that at the moment. But by April, we'll see. They've made some nice progress these last 10 days or so. I realized yesterday during their Christmas game, and I agree with what you said, by the way, and their defense should be good because they have Paul George and Stephen Adams and Robertson if they're going to play them. But I realized yesterday, watching them against Houston,

that's kind of a nightmare matchup for Houston. Assuming OKC can get their shit together 100% by May, because they have two dudes to throw it harden, who have to be two of the five best possible dudes to throw at him, right? Paul George and Roberson. So Roberson and Roberson, what did we decide? What's the latest? Roberson. I just want to call him Roberson over and over again. But they have two awesome guys to throw at him. Then on the other side, Westbrook's always been a problem for Chris Paul, always. And this was when Chris Paul was a good athlete. Isaac, you know. Did Chris Paul like guarding? He did not like it. He was all right at it. Didn't love it, though. Didn't love it. Never loved it. It's like riding a bowl.

Preferred yelling at his teammates. Yeah. Isaac's bitter clipper fan. But it is kind of, I don't know, if they caught Houston in the right series, I think that wouldn't be ideal. I do think the most important thing is that they figured out that Carmelo just isn't the Carmelo from 2013. Once they realized that, they were in a better spot. Indiana's 19 and 14. Old Depot.

Oh, I mean. Unbelievable. You could argue. he should be, I know we're not doing the conventional all-star game anymore but you could argue he's the starting two guard in the all-star game.

It's him or DeRosen? Who would you pick? Ola Dipo. I think I would too. By a hair. I think he's better defensively. Yeah, that's the edge on the defensive end.

So that's been great. That's a win. We all have to keep apologizing to Kevin Pritchard. That trade was awesome. And I'll be interested to see if they make one more move to become a little bit more dangerous

come play off time. What's your one thing for them? Besides Oladipo and his development, Subonis as well, we talked about this on, I think, your podcast a couple weeks ago, Subonis in a new situation, new circumstances, not spotting up as much, playing more from the high post. Subonis has taken strides in his game as well. So that's a testament to both him, his abilities, and the coaching staff, putting him in a position to succeed. Minnesota 21 and 13. We talked about them when you were on with my dad a couple weeks ago, so we don't need to go into the whole town's thing. I'm still, I'm sorting out my thoughts on towns, but they are not positive.

Tibbs, I just, I don't, I feel betrayed. I feel betrayed by how weird their offense is and the decisions they make and how unhappy the team seems. Everyone's talked about the crazy minutes they played. It took them a long time to figure out that Butler was kind of Jimmy Butler, that maybe he should be more involved in stuff. But it's a team that has. the wrong vibe to them. Even when they win, I don't feel good about what I'm watching. And I don't

know what to make of them, but they have all the makings of a classic, you know, people thinking they're a threat come playoff time and they just get waxed, would be mine take away on them. What's your one thing? I would say overall it's that I do think their minutes are an issue, and they definitely will be an issue moving forward. But I do want to see them with a fully healthy roster with a Bee Jelly came back last night, only played six minutes. but as he gets integrated more into the team, he was really good early in the season, shooting the ball for them,

spacing the floor offensively. I do worry about, you know, the frequency that they post up. If they don't lead the league and post up frequency, their top four or five or six or something along those lines,

I do think that could become problematic in the playoffs. But at the same time, I do want to see how this team evolves over the course of the season. It's like, like I said, with Oklahoma City, I want to see how this team develops

because they do have a new look roster still. So I'm intrigued, but I'm also a little bit concerned as well. They did a subtle recalibration. I'm looking at this up right now, the December splits. Oh, yeah, that confirms it. Butler in December is averaging a 26, 6, and 5.

Andrew Wiggins in December, 15 points a game. And by the way, not shooting well either. He's 26% from 3. That contract is still lurking as a potential disaster. But basically they recalibrated and now it's a Butler in Townsend. him everybody else is a fringe guy or supporting player, which is not dissimilar to what O'C

do with Carmelo. I think they realize now that especially in the last five minutes that Butler needs to be more involved than anybody else. And Towns also needs to be involved. And Andrew Wiggins, you're over there. So we'll see how that goes. But it's tough when you, what do they give Wiggins? How much money?

Max. I got the max deal. But like, what was it? 150? I believe 150. I'll pull it open right now. I didn't, not a fan of that contract, I'll tell you that much. It's calculated risk, though.

San Antonio Spurs 23 and 11. I mean, they're just playing possum as always. The big takeaway for me is just how much fun it's been to watch Aldridge be Aldridge again and get the ball in the right spots and overpower people and just do his thing. It seemed like he was a guy who was on the other side of the mountain, and now clearly they've fixed it. And Popovich has even admitted that he screwed it up. So it's good to have a really good basketball player back in the league. What's yours?

It's all these new faces. You know, a lot of names people might not recognize if they don't watch the spurs that are contributing off their bench, DeJante Murray, Bertans, Brandon Paul, Forbes. A lot of new faces or kind of guys getting new opportunities with San Antonio and they continue clicking. It's remarkable. I think Minor Genoble tweeted a couple weeks back or earlier this month how without Kauai Leonard, without their best player, they had a win percentage still over 70%.

It's just remarkable how they continue. to have success with all these guys that the casual fan has no idea who they are. That just continues to fascinate me. I forgot to tell you one stat with the 82 games thing that I was looking at. It's got the 10-point lead frequency. So games you play in that you're up by 10 points at some point in the game. Golden State was 90%. This one shocked me.

Toronto, I know Toronto's playing well, so it shouldn't have shocked me. But Toronto, 80% of their games, they have a 10-point lead or more. And I can't really figure it out because when you watch them, they're all on the, I guess I'm jumping ahead of Toronto, but when you watch them, they're all on the same page. They're doing great. But then you look at the stats and it's like Lowry's not having nearly as good of a year as he was last year. They don't really have a guaranteed third score. It's a lot of bench guys and a lot of by committee stuff. And yet it's whatever, the mix is working. Abacca's been playing pretty well, especially this month. But it's just funny to me. Some teams, San Antonio is a lot. another one where it's just the eye test of watching all the pieces together is so much different than just looking at the stats and trying to figure out what the hell's going on. But San Antonio, man, the infrastructure always wins. Cleveland, 24 and 10, fifth best record in the week. I was trying to figure out if LeBron was having the best season he's ever had. First of all, his numbers are ridiculous. He is shooting better than 40% from three, but he's also shooting better than 60% from

too. So I was like, oh, that's interesting. I wonder how many times that's happened. And it's happened a few times over the course of NBA history. But never by anyone who averaged more than 15 points a game. So it's been like the Steve Kerr types. But he's averaging like 29 a game in doing it. And nobody else ever in the history of the league was averaging better than like 14.5 points a game. It was like Chris Mullin in 1997 and a couple other ones. So I was thinking like the 40-60 club should be a club. If you're 40% for 3-8, 60% from two and you're averaging more than 10 points a game, that's like an achievement. And it's one of the many incredible things for him. But with Cleveland, though, I don't think

it's worth talking about them until Isaiah comes back and we see what that looks like. It's, you know, there's the team they have now and then that team is going to be a completely different thing. What's your one thing for them? The one thing is related to Monday's Christmas game against the Warriors. I thought they were doing some interesting stuff when they were posting out LeBron James. Usually on like after switching on a pick and roll, they would post him up against McCaw or somebody else smaller. And they were setting weak side screens for, I think, Corver set one for Crowder, and I believe Crowder set one for Kevin Love that resulted in open three-point opportunities.

And that type of little subtle off-ball movement is perhaps the type of stuff that they're going to have to do to maybe beat that team down the line if they meet again in the finals. But that was just intriguing. I just seeing that little wrinkle just stuck out to me rather than just playing typical iso ball with LeBron just attacking Macaw, they were doing stuff on the weak side to create more action that was actually happening on the play, aside from LeBron potentially being able to score. So that was interesting to see. If I'm playing Cleveland, I'm dying for them not to post up LeBron. That's my biggest fear with, like when the Celtics play them and that they have a game

coming up against them, when they post LeBron up, I don't know how to stop it. And it's funny because 10 years ago and 8 years ago and 6 years ago, this is what we complained about about LeBron. if you remember. Oh, he's going to add a post-up. Now it's like he goes down there and he's just ridiculous. He's dominant. And it's something they always know they have. I think when we get to the playoffs, we'll see more of it.

But he's really mastered what to do down there in ways that I think we had always wondered what would that look like 10 years ago. Celtics, 27 and 10. I'm not panicking as a Celts fan from what we've seen in the last two weeks because I think this schedule has just to do. destroyed them. The London game, I think they played 14 games in 23 days. And Stevens has really been trying to be careful with the minutes. And it's led to some bad habits, especially because they can't ever really play Kyrie 40 minutes in a game because they're trying to save him. They don't

want to burn them out. And just in general, I think yesterday you could really see, they looked tired to me. Like, they just couldn't get stops. That was all season, that type of game. They're up five with four minutes left, they finished the game. And that was the first time where I really felt like they had kind of lost their legs. And I think now it's now that that London game is becoming like a finish line of sorts. Just get to that game, get through it. And then the schedule gets really easy after that and has a lot more breaks. So I think they're better than they've played the last two weeks.

What's your one thing? It's Tatum. I think they need to feed him more and more and more. Yeah. I don't see any reason for Jalen Brown to be getting two more shots per game than Tatum. Tatum's just on another level as a scorer already at his rookie season. I think, you know, Gordon Hayward being out, obviously, is a negative, obviously. It goes about saying, but it does open the opportunity for you to create chances for Tatum to become the guy a little bit sooner next to Kyrie Irving.

I think we said this on the part one of the podcast with Kuzma, where you want to see more and more from Kuzma. It's the same thing with Tatum. Just feed him, feed him, create opportunities for him and see what he can become. I don't know, maybe he won't be ready for it, but I think it would be nice to see the higher workload for him. So he's basically averaging in December the same amount of shots as Marcus Smart, 9.1 to 8.6. Jalen Brown is even averaging an extra shot over him. I said this on Twitter last week. I got really frustrated during one of those losses last week because we've reached a point of the season where it's just he should be shooting more than nine times.

He's a 50-50 guy from 2.3 point. So it just makes sense to you shoot more. But then you watch him, and sometimes he's just happy standing in the corner. And he doesn't want to get the ball. And he's just perfectly fine, not being in the play. And I think it's because he's 19 and he's a rookie and he doesn't totally know what to do yet. But we've reached a point where they just have to run shit through him. I'm with you.

You know I agree with this. I think the whole second unit should revolve around him and running stuff through him and every time. and just let him get better at it, let him get better at creating. There's got to be, Stevens is too smart. There's got to be some reason they're not playing it that way

that we're not seeing. We have three teams left. Toronto, you know, they doubled down on the team they already had that nobody really loved that much. They paid Abaca. They paid Lowry a contract that

I actually looked up last night and my eyes started to bleed. He's making like $30 million a year this year, next year, the year after. And all of it looks smart now. and they nailed the OG pick. He's already a rotation guy. They look good.

And yet I have my one thing for them is I don't feel like it's any different for them. I think they're going to play Cleveland at some point. Cleveland's going to beat them. What's your one thing? I just think the coaches, the players on that roster, deserve a lot of credit for just really adapting to a new system. I think Lowry and DeRosen are really have slowly taken to the increased ball movement on that team. Dwayne Casey deserves credit for installing that.

It could be the same end result. As you said, it could end up that Cleveland just squashes them again in the playoffs. But the process is going to be a lot different on the way there. And I think that hopefully, you know, for that team by April, they are totally clicking with this new system because it's still only December. You know, we're not even in January yet. I think that team still has more upside. And I think as OG continues to develop for that team on the offensive end, hopefully for them that they can develop into a greater offensive threat than they already are. We've had three semi-dominant teams this year.

We're at like the 33-34 game mark, the Warriors, the Rockets, and the Raptors, all of them, you know, nine-point differential or above. All of them, a lot of blowout, stuff like that. The Celtics have been the fourth best team, but as you know, it's 27 and 10, but really could have been 22 and 17 or 22 and 15, whatever. Kairi has, and Crunch Time and Stevens, they've stolen some games. Toronto has not had to steal a lot of games. Like, they've been working teams. And if we've learned anything about the NBA, it says, don't judge the NBA by the first 35 games.

This is the February, March, April stretch is when you find out what you have. That's 16-game winning streak by Boston kind of warp expectations. They're really like a 47-win-paced team. That's the way we got to think of them going forward. And they should be because they lost their 30 million. dollar small forward five minutes of the season. But coaching defense and Kyrie can make a 47 win team look like a 54 win team. But I think the combo of that and the schedule, they're definitely, the regression is not,

not shocking. I still love watching them. Houston 25 and 7, 115.1 points per game. And not a ton of Chris Paul, right? This is a team when they have everybody could be a threat to go 120. 22 points a game or something in a month. And also a threat to put up 150 in any night, I think. I think the Warriors and the Rockets, both of them.

My one thing for them is I still really like Eric Gordon. The stats don't 100% back it up, but I do think he's a go-to-war with him guy that they have. And Anderson looks better than he has. But like when they have Hardin and Paul and Eric Gordon and Areza and Capella in Crunch Time, I just like that team. I think that's a team that you can kind of go to war with. Capella, who I think is bulked up a little bit and in general has just been better. Hardin has been, he has a chance to average 33 points a game, which is at a rarefied NBA year.

You're talking like 10 guys ever in the history of the league at that point, maybe less. But I've really started to talk myself into them going toe to toe to toe with the Warriors. I don't think they'll beat them, but they could go toe to toe. and the math might win out and they might just have the two games where they make a ton of threes and the Hardin wins a game and all of a sudden it's a game seven.

I am much more bullish on them than I was a month ago. What's your one thing for them? I'm worried about their health. That's the thing that comes to mind for me. I mean, I'm not panicking at all. This three game losing streak,

they didn't have Capella for two of the games. Paul missed two and didn't finish the other. No Luke Bammutei. But what's worrisome is with the injury is the amount of minutes some of these guys are playing. Ares is averaging 40, three minutes per game. That's crazy. Biamutei went out. Hardin's at 37 over the same time frame. It's like you got to get these

guys minutes down to what they were when the roster was healthy. Hardin was around 34, 35 when Paul was active. A Reza was around the same range, which is still kind of high, but it's not extreme. These guys playing 40 minutes each night. That's what could put you into the situation last year where Hardin was just exhausted by the end of the season where you're running with an eight-man rotation yesterday on Christmas in a big game against Oklahoma City, I get it. But some of these games moving forward, maybe you just go with some of these young guys,

some of your deeper bench guys, even if it doesn't feel good to do it. Maybe you just have to. Maybe you just have to at this point, this point in the season. Put Joe Chi out there, or Demetrius Jackson, or Bobby Brown. Just give those younger guys' minutes for the sake of saving the guys' health and conditioning

for later in the season when you're actually needed. We talked about this on Ringar NBA show last week. It's something that I think Popovich is the best at, but just throwing guys out there and playing the math of the season, just being like, I'm going to need certain guys, certain nights. Maybe you even say Stevens do this a little bit, like he'll throw Yabaseli out there one game and Abdul Nader and he'll just try things. And I agree with you. I think Houston could be a little more creative with that stuff. Last team, Golden State, 27 and seven, I'm going to give you 67 and a half as they're over or under.

Are they over or under? What's their win percentage right now? 27 and 7.7. 794 win percentage. Okay. I'll go a slight under. Slight under because of the health. I mean, we don't know when Sari's going to come back. Going to go with a slight under for them.

How about you? Over. Over. I think they have a win streak in them. My one thing for them, is Durant's defense, I think, has been, it's something he's shown flashes of. And I think in the 2016 playoffs with the OKC and then last year especially, you saw it. This year he's really taken pride in it and he's become a rent protector.

I mean, people have been writing about this. It's not like I'm coming up at this point. But I just didn't think he had it in him. And you think about the 10-year journey that he's had from being this 6-foot-11, 200-pound shooting guard for PJ Carlisimo, who was just out of position. all the time to this guy who can really go at LeBron at the end of games and guard him, really like nobody else other than maybe Yonis. And just in general, just every quarter seems to take pride in it and will get chased down

blocks. And I think as a two-way player, it's been cool to watch him grow. Because I, you know, I'd have to do the list and figure out if he's top 20, top 25, top 18 all time. I don't know where he ranks. but I think as a two-way player, as a forward, he's way, way up there. And he's probably a little, him versus Dirk,

Dirk-sailing versus KD's sailing, I think the difference is Duran, his ability to make an impact on the defense event. Dirk could never really do what Duran's doing. So that was my one thing. What's your one thing for them? To your point, you know, Duran's development on defense has just been remarkable.

I mean, he's a guy who should at least be in the defensive player of the year conversation. Yeah. My one takeaway is, this was kind of, of apparent during Monday's game with the shooting of the ball. They were 10 of 37, shooting three. Durant and Clay Thompson were combined seven for 16. Everybody else was three for 21. This is almost a little bit of a trend for them where without Steph on that roster, they don't have a lot of shooting, which is kind of weird to say, considering how potent of a team

they are, but nobody's really worried about Draymond Green from three. McCaw's not shooting the ball that well. Igua Dala is in a real slump right now. Livingston, obviously is a non-shooter. Nick Young and Caspi are the really guys off that bench who shoot the three well, and who knows how much they're actually going to play when it comes to the playoffs. So they have their big three, you know, on the offensive end with Curry, Durant, and Thompson. But other than that, this team doesn't have a lot of shooting. So I wonder if they're a team that low-key should be targeting a shooter towards the trade deadline.

Or if maybe you just bank on Igwadala getting back to what he was last season. you're banking on Dremont Green getting hot in the playoffs. McCaw, I think he's a better shooter than he's shot. So maybe it's just the improvement comes internally. But right now, they don't have a lot of shooting without Steph. And that's been a little bit weird to watch. Dremont's three-point shooting, I actually looked this up, and I just clicked on it again. He's basically been between 30% and 33% his entire career, except for 2015-16, and he shot 39%.

But never more than, like, won a game, like 1.2. something that range. But when you watch the Warriors, he's always open. The teams are dying for him to take that 25-footer, right? And in the playoffs, his numbers went up. So in 2015, he was 26% from three. But then in 16, he was 37%. And then last year is 41%, making two a game.

I think this year, more than any other year, teams are just going to be laying five feet off them. They're going to try to jet out mind-trick him and bully him into taking those. Yeah, and because he's such an alpha dog, he's going to want to, right? Like, how dare you leave me open? I'm Traybond Green. And he's probably going to make him. It'll probably make them, or he'll probably work at them for a long time.

But I do think that is the kryptonite for them is teams just leaving him in Igudal open because the alternative is Durant and Curry and Clay. And just more than ever this year, I think the teams are just going to try to take out those three. I really want to see everybody healthy at the same time, which we haven't. you know, first month of the season, they just seemed to out of shape. And then Durant played himself in the shape, and Draymond did to a certain degree. But then Curry got hurt. I still think the ceiling of this team, especially with the bench they have and how well West is playing and just how long they've played together and how well they know each other.

There's a 17-game winning streak where they win every game by 20 points a game or something crazy. I still feel like that's in this team. I'll just be curious to see if they can stay healthy for long enough for it to happen. So I would go over on 67 and a half. Well, KFC, we did it. Two parts. That's fun. Two hours.

I had bad news, though. Isaac went in a coma about 20 minutes ago. We were talking about the Clippers and I don't know what happened, but he just blacked out. So I don't know if we're going to be able to post this. But happy holidays. You're back next week with Verno, right? Tuesday? Yes, I believe so.

Yep. Cool. And then we'll see you in L.A. in mid-January. Yes. Can't wait. Thank you, buddy. Thank you, Bill.

That was fun. Don't forget about Seekek. Go to Seekkeek, first-timers, $20 off NBA tickets. Check out the BS podcast, two more this week. And when does group chat come back, Isaac? Next Thursday. Next Thursday. So that's it for Ring or NBA show content this week.

Everyone's away. Sorry. Back later.