The Ringer NBA Show - Our NBA Potluck Dinner | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 28, 2019

We all bring one team, one player, and one take to discuss on this episode. Featured: the Boston Celtics, the Los Angeles Lakers, Chris Paul, Ben Simmons, and more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, Paolo Uggetti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. Basketball is very good. The Wizards underpaid John Wall. AD should resign with the Pelicans. The Nets actually won the Celtics trade. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer MBA show. This is the group chat.

That's my young Barbaro impersonation there. Yes. You like that? I was working on that one all day. Thank you very much. Group chat day. That's Haley O'Shaughnessy. Haley, you're supposed to say something.

I'm sorry. I'm still thinking about Malia Obama's boyfriend. And that's Paolo Getty. What's up? Guys, we've been talking a little bit before the show today because it's a big day in the universe, I would say. It's Lucidantius's birthday. Can I see anything controversial?

I don't care. What? What? We love birthdays here. We have to celebrate our heroes. I'm celebrating every basketball player. Who else? We should see who else's birthday.

Maybe it's like Ian Clark's birthday today as well. Well, we actually, the social team at the ringer put together like a doc of all the NBA birthdays, or at least they had one and they shared it to me. So I shared it with Haley and I was hoping for, well, I was hoping for some horoscopes on our favorite NBA players. Oh. Yeah. So today is February 28th. That makes him a Pisces.

Okay. Yeah. Does that fit our guy, Luca? I don't really know him well enough yet. Yeah. But what's like the... The Piscese's. Stereotypes that you're like in tune with your feelings and you like to talk about feelings and you're sensitive and amicable

Mm-hmm sounds like Luca. Yeah, I can see that. Haley was positing that Luca might not make a good match for Leah Obama before the show was started. No, I said that they, I would be a good match. Because I realized he was 20 and I remembered she was 20 and it just made me think that maybe in some universe they could date. In a universe where you are only allowed to marry a very specific. person of the same age. I just remember that they were in the same age range.

But she has a boyfriend who, according to classmates, and business insider.com is quote unquote, very popular. So Bobby's like, I can't wait to cut everything you do. No, we're keeping all this. So on today's episode, we're going to talk a little bit about what's going to happen over the last monthish of the season. I think we have like a month plus. I think it goes into the first week or second week of April.

We're going to do this NBA potlux style. Love potlux. Yeah. So each of us brought to the table one interesting team going forward, one interesting player, and one interesting take, because we love them takes. We're going to start off first with the team that I feel like we can't get away from, which is the Boston Celtics. I feel like we've been talking about them every week for about two months now and saying similar things.

But Haley, you wanted to bring them to the table. Yeah. And we have been talking about them a lot. It's because they're put together very skillfully. And they should. They are on paper a very good team. This has been the problem in the entire season. This isn't new.

And they just don't play up to their potential. And I think that that's like in all aspects of basketball, it's always confusing to us. That's why players like Andrew Wiggins don't make any sense. Because they have all this talent. We think that they should be so much better. And then especially after the Celtics lost to the Bulls, and then they lost again last night

but it was a better loss they lost to Portland and they played well it was close it's just very very very confusing to me no longer like what they can be because I think that this is it

I don't think there's any getting better for them it's too late in the season their problems are ones that you don't think are going to go away it's obvious that there's a divide on the team between I don't even know if it's all the older guys or if it's just Kyrie Herving

and, you know, the younger subset of guys that he keeps calling out and then kind of shouting out and then calling out again. And so I don't think it's going to get better. But I do think that they're interesting because they're not a team that's going to go away. They just have too much baseline talent to do that.

So I think that they are in a unique position and also then there's thinking about the future for them and that goes beyond the regular season, which is what we're talking about today. but, you know, Kyrie Irving is going to be a free agent this season. Is that something the Celtics want to dabble in again? And then, you know, they have all their young guys to think about it.

It's just interesting. And also, you know, if he leaves or if they don't want to resign him, the direction of their team then is also just as perplexing. They have, you know, now Gordon Hayward is your, monetarily your most important guy. Right. My thing is that at some point we have to stop saying, on paper they have so much talent

because I feel like we're falling back on that way too much like at some point that has to match up with what we see on the court and what we're seeing on the court is a team that's not nearly as good as we thought it would be first of all and second of all it's just not as good as it was last year clearly and I you know we're very much obsessed with trying to figure out what those things that what the factors are and you know what Kerry's saying

what he's not saying you know what the young players are doing or not saying. I just think like at the end of the day, there's just the, this is the team, like kind of what you're saying. This is the team. This is what we're dealing with. It's not a team that is going to win a title. It's not a team that's going to, I mean, I wouldn't be that surprised if they didn't

make it to the Eastern Conference finals. And it's just, you know, I do think that the Celtics have become a very talked about team because of that. We're still falling back on that, oh, on paper, they should be so good. And yeah, that's true to an extent. but also we already have a very large sample size of what they look like the season and it's not good. Right. The expectations going into the season often shape how we still talk about these teams going into the playoffs, which I guess to a certain extent is just like how things work.

But to Powell's point there, I think the divide shows up still to this day where if you look at net rating, they're fourth in the league right now, right underneath the Denver Nuggets, right above the Toronto Raptors, which to me still suggests despite all the weird chemistry things that are happening, all the weird Kyrie stuff that's happening, that there's still a good team, like somewhere in the midst of all this, like, muck. Right, and they're not going away. Right. But at the same time, I looked at this up just because I wanted to see how well the Hawks were doing

lately, and the Hawks are playing just as well as the Celtics are. Or you could flip that as the Celtics are playing just as poorly as the Hawks are in the past 10, Celtics are 4 and 6 with a minus 3.4 net rating. So, which was like 19th in the league. And I think that's the divide right there. We know that this team has talent, and we've seen them play well, and yet lately, especially, things just seem completely disjointed. If you guys are the coach of this team, what do you not even switch on the court, but what do you go in the locker room and handle right away? Because we were talking about this a little bit on Slack yesterday.

It just seems like there's kind of, I mean, Brad Stevens is very much like a player's coach, and he seems like someone you'd relate to rather than like the traditional basketball coach. you know, we see in movies or like think of when we think of Tom Tibido, who's going to like scream at players. So I don't think Brad Stevens going to go into the locker room and scream at Kyrie, you know, and tell him that he's got to get off his high horse and this obviously isn't working. And there are numbers that prove that the guys play better when you are not in the game at all. Right. Yeah. There's that Dean Oliver stat that's been floating around Twitter, which was essentially said that they play well with Kyrie. But when he goes off the floor, they crater. But when he doesn't play in games, I don't. When he doesn't play at all, they play better. But when he does play, obviously, they're better when he's on the court,

which is some weird mind work. But they play better overall when he is not playing at all. Which seems to suggest that when he is in the flow of the game, like, it works. But as soon as he goes off the court, they might not be able to adjust to a team without him. There's such a division between how they play when he's on an off. I just think it's clearly mentality. Right, yeah, it's a mental thing. But also, like, that's kind of Brad Stevens.

Like, you know, he's always ran like something through his. point guard. Like that's kind of just his offense. It's also Kyrie as a player. Like that is like he is a very dominant player and he can be. So it kind of makes sense that like he's, I don't want to say like four, I mean, they need him to do to play the way that he does

play, which is why I said, why would what would you tell him in the locker room and on the court? He is that like ball dominant guard, not necessarily ball dominant but like he can be, he can't take the game over. Yeah. We talked about this yesterday too, but it's, I think the one thing that's kind of playing out here is

that we have so much evidence that Brad can make like good use of all the players when Kyrie isn't around and yet when Kyrie is there he's causing this like disjointment and thus like if we're just going off of that it seems easy to pick on Kyrie and not necessarily Brad. I think you I think you definitely have a point there that at a certain point it is on the coach to make the best use of the talent.

Yeah. I just don't know like what you can do at this point because it seems to be baked into how Kyrie plays and as we were just talking about like when he plays he plays well and the team plays well around him. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think I've been like mowing over the Brad Stevens, like, take, if you will, like for a while now.

And I think I mentioned earlier, but like there's, I do think he deserves a good bit of critique, maybe more. I think that Kyrie, by speaking and getting in front of my microphone, like, every game and saying something weird is weirdly like attracting more attention to him than what Stevens has or hasn't done. There's something to be said for a coach. that not only can do the basketball stuff, but can work with superstars.

And this is like Brad Stevens' first superstar. Like Gordon Hayward was not back at Butler. It was not a, I mean, he was the best player, but he was not a star, and he means it's college basketball. So that's fascinating to me because maybe he's just the type of coach who doesn't know yet. He's still young, how to deal with that,

everything that comes with that. And especially everything comes with the superstar that is coming from a type of environment where LeBron sort of ruled over everything. And I think that has to factor in as well, how Kyrie sort of learn the ropes, if you will, being a superstar from having a version of LeBron on his team. Right. And that's the other thing that we were talking about.

It's almost LeBron-esque, like, how Kyrie is going out in these post-game interviews and, you know, saying these, I mean, honestly, just things that he shouldn't be saying because it's further dividing this team. And then it's almost in a way, like painting. Brad is helpless, you know, to Kyrie's, like, attitude and personality and, like, how he wants to be. And that's something we've always attached to LeBron teams. The coaches just helpless. It's LeBron.

Like, he's going to do what he wants to do. And the coach is going to have to come to that. And obviously, it's not the same on the court and schematically and everything else. Brad is so much more involved in the locker room. I mean, I don't know that. This is all based on appearances. But obviously, like, Brad Stevens has a very heavy hand in his team. Nobody's not saying that.

But it's just interesting how it's painted because Kyrie is going out at the end of these games and is very much the face of their struggle, which was always how LeBron was. And it kind of just wasn't even like a thought to what was going on with the coach or what the coach could be doing. Something I wonder is sort of their philosophical differences, if you will, about basketball. Whereas Kyrie has very distinct style and like Brad is very much about the egalitarian system and sort of moving the ball. And those two things clashing. I wonder how that is from, you know, inside. because I wonder if given going back to that

Dean Oliver's statistic if it would be just best for the Celtics to like Kyrie for lack of a better term go more like Hardin you know like just let him take more shots let him be more of a focal point of the offense

guaranteed he is a focal point of the offense but just like let him take over a little more but I wonder if that's something that it's just like doesn't compute in his mind because it's not an option because he wants to play that that ball sharing system. Yeah, the big picture view of the Celtics seems to be that like they have carefully plotted out this like this model franchise step by step, like getting the right coach

in place, getting the right players in place, getting all these like perfect draft picks and nailing them. But they're coming head on into a collision with like the new environment of the NBA where it's players are obviously going to try to get how like what they want out of a situation. and so they're trying to build structure from almost like a chaotic environment. Like that is inherently a little, maybe not chaotic, but a little tough to like wrangle. And so, and I think, you know, Bill has been pretty outspoken about like how this era of players, specifically Anthony Davis is like maybe it's not a good thing for everybody. Even though like for individual players, it's great to see them taking hold the power. But there is this divide where it's like, if Kyrie can't really get on the same page of like what has been.

a model franchise over the past few years, I do think, like, maybe he should, like, take a second to, like, think about it. Well, yeah, because it's Kyrie. That's the other thing is that maybe if he's, like, modeling, like, you were saying, Paulo, this, like, leadership tactics that he has when, you know, calling out the young guys in public. It's very much, like, something he got from LeBron. But, dude, you're not LeBron.

Like, you are not allowed to go around and, like, and act this type of way and think that it's going to be beneficial for the team. maybe it was something we've forgotten about is how when he did request for a trade part of the rhetoric around that was that he wanted his own team and he wanted his own thing and Boston was on his list and he's gone there and he seems like he was

thriving and enjoyed it but at the end of the day that's still not his team even though he's the best player that is exactly what the Celtics have been about for the last few years it hasn't been about one figure it's about being this collective of assets and like team building so

even if he's now been the piece It's been added as a free agent. It's still not his team. It's never going to be his team like that. And maybe that's something that has caused friction. Yeah. All right. Let's move on from the team that we all hate now.

Do the team that we all love? Our Sacramento Kings, they're back. I don't know where they went over the past couple weeks, but they're back. I do. They were on a fucking brutal road trip. They were. They had the warriors, the, they had the nuggets, the Warriors, the Thunder, the wolves, and then they came back home last night, Milwaukee.

I have to say, this is my favorite team to, watch. It's gotten to the point where it's not even like a deep cut take anymore. Like this isn't some like you're not being artsy. No, this is the Pascal Seacom syndrome where it's like he was the deep cut and now he's he's super popular. He can't even mention him. You like the band before everyone knew them. I know. Yeah. But apparently not in this case. Not anymore. Yeah. 31 and 30 overall. They are two games back of the eighth seed still, the clippers hanging on there. And I think they have a really easy stretch here. This is the team I wanted to talk about just because they bring so much joy to my life there, the Marie Kondo.

Yes. To my NBA experience, I have been particularly in love with the way Buddy Heald is like taking the reins and is kind of just popping off of that team. For a while, I think we've just assumed that Deere and Fox, given how he plays and like,

just how energetic and just I think how like what a high opinion we have of him that he was the guy in that team. But if you watch that team over the past like 10 games or whatever, it seems like Buddy is the guy. And even in crunch time when Deeran's like doing his thing, it's like give the ball to Buddy. Like, what are you doing?

The other thing that's interesting there is Marvin Bagley, obviously, has just completely jumped off the page lately. He's playing worthy of the number two pick, unfortunately, got hurt last night. But I guess the question there is, like, what do we think about the Keynes going forward? Do we think they're the favorite for that A seed? Well, so I looked it up and they have the third easiest schedule going out, which the clippers, they also have a fairly easy schedule. And the clippers also have the advantage of, you know, dock rivers. And his playoff experience, when I say playoff experience, I mostly mean like making that push in regards to this part of the season. It's something that not a lot of these kings have.

I was actually looking up a while back in comparison to like the Lakers and the Clippers and the Kings, their playoff experience in general. And the Kings had the least, like in terms of just raw combined minutes played of their entire roster of the three by far. Like LeBron himself had more than the entire other two rosters combined. So that will hurt the Kings. But at the same time, I don't know. They feel like the young, exciting team that could put points on the board. You know what I mean? And they can rally.

Like last night they came back from what 17 Milwaukee? And then they lost by one. They forced it to overtime. It was so exciting. So they do seem like they have the energy to pull off like a late season. It does feel very much like the season before the actual season is happening where like you're seeing them have these. I mean they beat the thunder. Granted on the back to back, but they beat the thunder. They had a few other really good wins and have just even blown out some teams. And yet they're still sort of a step short in all these games. You know, the nugget game bucks. And so you wonder like the reason I want them to make the playoffs is because of that. Like they're going to have an amazing, a better season next year. So having. just even like a tiny bit of experience in playoffs will be, I feel like, so valuable for a team that has so many young guys too. And that is also like vindication for how they switched styles from

last season and are now running and doing all of that. And it looks very difficult for them. But at the same time, I would love a series between, like, I would much rather watch them the Warriors and the Warriors and the Sports Awards and the Clippers for sure. They make some of the dumbest mistakes I have ever seen, especially late in games. Like last night when Willie Culley Stein just threw it to nobody on like the biggest possession of the game. Oh, Willie Clysson. Or when... Right, but even like Buddy healed.

You had to get replaced next year. Buddy didn't take that deep three in order to win a game recently. Darren Fox just got eaten alive by Eric Blentso. It was ridiculous. On a certain possession. But it reminds me of, you know how like in poker there's always this thing where like the established players know how to play a certain way? but if like some sort of like someone that doesn't know how to play

is almost like a completely chaos agent. Yeah, and he shakes the status quo. Right, exactly. It's like much madness brackets. You don't like the person who has no idea what's happening in college basketball wins or something like that. Exactly. They don't know how to play them. I feel like that's what we get in a lot of the Warriors Kings matchups,

which if this bears out and the Kings make the playoffs. I would love that playoff series. It's great. That'd be the one like worthwhile Warriors playoff series. It would 100% be a sweep, but it would be the most fun sweep ever. It would be like when the Pelicans played the Warriors, I think in 2014-15, and it was like the first year when Anthony Davis started to rise. It's like, oh, they're not there yet, but I could definitely see this team and like they have something there. I guess the question, though, is going forward when you were talking about like this is the year before the year, I think that's highly possible.

The one thing I'm always worried about is whether or not like progress is just linear. For sure. And that way, especially with a team like the Kings, where it's like, are we totally sure that they're going to nail like, free agency, like the Harrison Barnes situation in particular. That's what I was going to say, too, is you were saying it's vindication for the way that they switched styles, Paula. Yeah. This is also kind of vindication for the way that they've built this team.

They are the most regularly shit on team front office, I guess. I mean, and think about it. Larvin Bagley has looked great as a late, like you said, buddy healed. I thought that was a good trade at the time, but it's just everyone made fun of it because he said he was going to be Steph Curry. He's literally shooting. very similar. And now he's really, really, really well.

And Deer and Fox. You know, and honestly, and some of the other pieces that they've managed to bring to the team too, Bogdanovich is amazing. Even, you know, Belly's not really playing anymore. But like before when they were building to this team, like he was proving to be like a very smart ad. And it made the wolves look ridiculous for letting him go. Yeah. Even like Harry Giles is now sort of getting more playing time. And the combination of him and Bagley at the same time is really intriguing.

Right, right. So I think that it is also a vindication for the front office. With that being said, for some reason, I still don't have faith in going forward. But it is nice to see that it's working out for Vlade. Yeah, I still don't know why they made the Alec Berks trade for instance. There's a lot of question marks. What did they trade for Alec Berks? I think, I don't know if picks were involved, but they moved Shumper and brought in Burks.

Because the thinking was they needed a big wing for the playoffs. I could see it that like you kind of officially turned over that third guard spot over to Boge. Sure. Like even if not in minutes, but just like symbolically. And they brought in Cory Booker as like another old head off the street. So I guess Shumbert is pretty replaceable. But at the same time, like, I have no faith. I'm worried about Harris & Barnes, to be honest.

Really? Just because, again, on paper, he should help them because he's another scoring option, a bit of more reliable scoring option, older guy, et cetera. but he's also like a black hole for like jump shots you know what I'm saying and if he's taking some way from buddy or Aaron or bogey like I don't know how good that is I mean he'll be helpful but I'm just like I'm still a little unsure about yeah taking fewer shots than he was in Dallas which is

appropriate especially because he's playing more minutes yeah I don't know what to make of him but if he falls in line if he basically plays the role he had in Golden State I think it'll be super helpful yeah because that worked out he was good for a little while he won 73 games with him starting all you need to do is watch the last championship yeah well they just don't play them in the finals Sacramento Kings

alright let's go to the other team in that Western conference eighth seed race the one that we actually care about so not the clippers sorry Isaac Paul you want to talk about the Lakers a little bit yeah I mean they're just a mess a glorious mess you were there last night I was yeah and it's just everybody's so it feels very

edge because of the quote-unquote stakes, if you will. I don't, I think we're almost talking. I think we're being too positive about their chances. Like I'm there front of the line saying like, I'm not going to doubt LeBron until he misses the playoff. But they have a tough schedule. I believe they're two and a half back now. If that's, no, they are.

They have to be further back. There are three games back. So I don't know. That's tough. They have a tough, like I said, tough schedule. LeBron is sort of in this mode where he doesn't You can't tell if he's like saving himself for the offensive side of the ball And then like not trying on defense or actually just not trying defense because like he's a little bit checked out

Or you know I don't know which player is gonna step up on a given night brandon ingram has been really really good Which has honestly saved them he got a bucket last night that pretty much sort of sealed the win before lebron's one-legged three-point shot right which everybody was raving about but you know I I think they're just so fascinated me because it's so mind-blowing that we're very close to the possibility of LeBron missing the playoffs for the first time in what feels like my entire lifetime. Yeah, this feels like that sort of thing where there's so much evidence against what, like, is likely to happen. Sure. Where it's like we have literally a decade of LeBron going into the playoffs, but everything is pointing to him not being there. And so it's just like it's more about us, I feel like, than anything.

I think the writing is pretty clearly on the wall. The fact that the teams that they've been losing to lately are trash. Like they almost lost to this Pelicans team that was like sitting Anthony Davis in the fourth has been watching Drew Holiday's minutes. Julius Randall was on some sort of like bloodthirsty revenge door, just jacking shots. Like this is not a team that you need a one-footed LeBron three-pointer in order to beat. Well, but you did. But that has one. But going back to it, I remember it's funny because at the beginning of the season you wrote about them being.

like the perfect league past team because they were in every like every game was tight and exciting and back then it was like charming now it's like worrisome well okay so i look this up because i think it is interesting to point out that with lebron in the lineup they are completely different team than without obviously that's like that's a clear point right but like even if you're just going off of the raw record with lebron they're 2419 they would be seventh in the west comfortably and actually pushing up against that next tier with the rockets on those other teams without them, they're six and 12, and they would be 14th, they would be right above the suns. And I think this is exactly what we were saying going into the season is that with

LeBron, I think this team makes some sense and I can see them in the playoffs. But the season is so long, they're playing this pace. LeBron is 34. Like, it literally is like, we're at Occam's Razor, I think. I think the thing is that this goes back to how they handle the summer because they don't have a failsafe, sort of a backup plan. and you can make excuses for them, right? There's, LeBron has been out.

Lonzo has been out. They had the suspensions early on the season, which, like, again, what I'm going to say is, like, this happened at the beginning of the season, but people are still talking about that. Keep talking about that. Like, it matters. So what, I mean, literally, like, 50 games ago.

So what I'm saying is, like, there's, you can't, you can't expect for a season to be perfect. And they didn't prepare for how it would be if their young players got injured or if they or if LeBron got injured and not that you sort of expect that but I think a smart team

in the summer goes out and gets like Reggie Bullock right now is like one of their most fallible players just because he can hit an open jump shot Right which they didn't have anybody else like that When they brought Chandler like in it was so important and it's like this guy should not be this important like he was the answer to a lot of their problems

temporarily and they're kind of getting what they deserve because they intentionally signed a lot of these guys regardless of who they sign, they were just holding the cap space, essentially, in order to roll it over to the next summer. And if you're basically playing with like just league average just like cap holds, like you kind of deserve to not like get into the playoffs as a result. You're treating the season like it's a bridge season, then you don't deserve to actually like benefit from it. Right.

I guess is what I'm saying. Well, so before we move on, I want to share this tweet. Sports Center, I think this was like three days ago tweeted the Lakers are twice as likely to get a top three pick. 6% than they are to make the playoffs 3% according to BPI. Yeah, it's brutal. It reminds me of the Pelicans a lot of times because there's just like, oh, they have Anthony Davis

and like some guys, but they have Anthony Davis and they'll figure it out, but they never figured it out. Like twice. Drew Holiday right now. Oh my God, Drew's amazing. I love Drew. I just wanted to quickly talk about Brandon Ingram because he was the guy, he was the player I brought

to the table. You know, I'm starting to see some things and he has a tendency to do this where he'll just like kind of float for most of the season and then like, like turning on at the end. You're like, oh yeah, Brandon Ingram, pretty good. But I thought David Thorpe on the new True Hoop newsletter

had a really good point, which is essentially saying that maybe he isn't Tatum. Maybe Tatum ultimately will be the best prospect, but I think we have gone a little bit too far in suggesting that Ingram just like is in anything. And I thought his biggest case, which I tend to forget, is that Ingram is 21 years old. And he is six months younger than Jason Tatum.

And you're starting to see why like we had so much hope for him of the past 15 games. He's averaging like 22 points. I'm surprised that the three-point shooting hasn't come along. I'm surprised that the distribution hasn't come along because those were like two of the best skills he kind of projected to have. Like being able to stretch the floor and also like almost operate as your primary playmaker in a lot of sets. So I'm still concerned overall. Right.

But there are many factors that have sent it as growth. Sure. That's what I was going to say. Even before LeBron. And, you know, that's been talked about a lot. Okay. Well, what would we think is like holding him back? Right now?

Or just in general? Well, I think at the beginning of the season, and to be clear, like, I've been generally down on Ingram and either way. But it does feel like there was a culture shock of having LeBron on the team, just on the court. I mean, not even off the court stuff, but just figuring out how to deal with a player, that's that, not just ball dominant, but has such a huge presence on the court. and where Ingram, I think, thrives

is more of like that one-on-one game or that's pretty spoke for. I agree with you that I'm worried about the three-point shot because when you watch him shoot it, it's sort of like it takes forever for him to release it because his arms are so long that you're like, this does not look normal.

It's free throw for him too. Yeah, yeah. You missed one late last night and I'm like, why is this going like behind your head sort of thing? I mean, maybe it's just like the fact that's just how his body is, but you know, it is one of those things where you worry about that as far as like what his ceiling can be

because we always talk about these guys like ceiling and whatnot. I do think we did kind of go overboard in terms of with Tatum because like Tatum also had a bit of a culture shock this season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back and he struggled for a bit too. So these guys are young like this is going to happen. Yeah, I mean look at the two guys the Lakers gave up on after their rookie contracts or even before that. Sure.

DeAngel Russell, Julius Randall, they would love to have both of them. I don't know why they gave up on Julie. Well, I know why they gave up on Julius Randall because he has a player option for the second year and they can't sign anyone with that cap space. At the end, he was playing so well. They were like out. They were like visibly out on him for a while. And then that last season he was really, really good. Both guys are averaging 20 points a game right now. Russell is averaging seven assists. Randall is averaging nine rebounds. Like some of it's just pace, especially with Randall. And like I think he is a little one dimensional. But to me, that's like a clear sign. It's like, do not give up on this guy yet. And I still think that there is some hope. Maybe not. lot that if they just keep this team, the Lakers, invest in the young guys, like, write it out and actually give them the time to figure this out and just add someone in free agency, even if it is a Chris Middleton or whatever, I think that's probably enough for now. And worst case scenario, you still have these guys to swing a trade at the next deadline in a year to come. I mean,

it's not going to align properly with LeBron's prime, and that's obviously the biggest issue they're going to have. But at the same time, you kind of just have. You kind of just have to be. You kind of to make the most of the situation you honestly signed up for. Yeah, but that is the question. Like, if it doesn't line up with LeBron and LeBron is the entire purpose of your team, and he is, anywhere he goes, like, he is the entire purpose, then maybe what's best is to have someone else who sees the same Ingram potential and get what's, you know, a justifiable fair trade back for him.

Yeah. Something that's going on. And honestly, like, Ingram, I'm like kind of with Powell, like, I've been like so annoyed than this entire season because I want him to be more aggressive. There's space for him to be this aggressive guy that Kuzma has been and to dominate. And I think that now I've officially sorted him in the pile of this guy needs to go somewhere else to really bloom. But then again, like the last guy I said that about was Justice Winslow. And he's finally come around, which is nice.

Our guy. So I don't, I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I would love to see him somewhere else because it's, it just seems like he's been limited where he isn't. And put in a box by LeBron. Yeah, maybe the answer is that they shouldn't be leaning into being a LeBron team going forward. Yeah, but it's like, it's too late for that. It is. For your contract. You could always trade them.

All right, we're going to take a quick break and get to some of our other interesting players and takes. Today's show is brought to you by Stitch Fix. Stitch Fix is an online personal styling service that finds and delivers clothes, shoes, and accessories to fit your body, budget, and lifestyle. I'm in the marketplace for a coat. It's a little cold here in Los Angeles. It's always to be raining when we record this podcast. Every Thursday. Yeah, so we could use some rain gear on the group chat podcast. Stitch Fix makes it really easy to sign up. It's been great having them available. Stitch Fix can help you find your new favorite piece of clothing. Just go to stitchfix.com slash MBA and tell them your sizes what styles you like and how much you want to spend

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Get $25 off your first trip when you sign up for Turro and use promo code ringer at checkout in terms of play. All right, we're back. Haley, Paolo, Bobby, let's do this. We're talking about interesting players and takes going into the last stretch run here in the season.

Paulo, you have a friend of LeBron who we just finished with in our last segment. Tell us about Chris Paul. Yeah, Chris Paul. So I want to be on the record. I love hero James Hardin and watching him go off for 40, 50 points a night. And I think I wish we would have had more of that when Chris Ball was out injured. So when Chris Balls came back, I feared for what the pretend, like not just what would happen in a Hardin streak, which is now over.

But how he would make the team better. And if he still had it in him, you know, I remember earlier on the season, we were talking about how like he looked a little just washed. and now after watching him when they were here in LA and sort of watching him in these few games I'm so surprised by how smooth he looks he looks for one healthy playing like super like a lot faster and I expected to be his shot is really good

and he's just as aggressive but he's been in the past so I think I've always been in the camp that the thunder are the real like fake threat to the Warriors but I think if if the Rockets can get Chris Paul back to that sort of a league level that we saw from last season, or most of the last season. I'm really just intrigued by what they become.

Because, I mean, everybody talks about this, but when they have, like, Capella, Hardin and Paul, they're, you know, they're one of the better teams in the league. He's entirely the reason that they beat the Hornets last night. The Hornets were rolling. Like, you know, Kemba Walker was like, I think he had, like, 27 his points in the first half. He was, like, nine for 10.

And in the second half, Chris Paul was like, dude, you've got to let me guard him. because they're trying to take it a little bit easy on him coming back. And so he did. And like, Kempo was held to, I think, eight points. You know, he brings that unique intensity. And it's funny because you were saying that. I was like, oh, man, I wish he was on the Lakers.

Like, that's what they need. Yeah. Why are those the two banana boaters who have never gotten together? I know. And Mello is somewhere out there just on a raft, just fishing. Yeah, what a guy? Yeah, no, Chris Paul, I think we wrote his obituary way too soon. Like, I just watch them out there.

I'm like, oh yeah, he's like, at worst, he's like a really, really, really good starting point card. And I think the point you hit right there, Haley, is the one that's really important going forward. I think defensively, the team is just way better. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, he is the balance to Harden. He always has been, and he's kind of made them

not just a Hardin team, but a really good team overall. And so I'm intrigued to see what they're going to do over the next. I think they're, what, fifth? Also, as Hardin was coming off to his... Fifth of the West. His cold shooting start last night. Chris Paul was shooting really well. I mean, it's just like,

that's the kind of balance that made, like I was thinking to myself as I was watching it, so funny because I didn't really want Chris Paul to come back because I wanted to see how far Hardin could take this, but I think he kind of like willfully ended himself, even the last night he had 30 again. But it just made me feel stupid for even thinking that.

Because he's like obviously such a extremely helpful part of this team, necessary part of the thing. I guess I forgot how fun it is to sort of watch Chris Paul do his thing. Right. And sometimes do his thing as being a little dirty, but like, hey. I think he's, like, probably my favorite player or among them. Sure. I just, I have an appreciation for how much, like, he tries to, like, ring out of a possession.

Like, it's clearly, like, there's this old Free Darko art of Kobe trying to build a, one of those things in a bottle, like the ship in a bottle sort of thing, and how it takes so much, like, precision or whatever. And but there's, like, all these, like, scattered around him that failed attempts. That's what I think of with Chris Paul more than Kobe. Interesting. Yeah. But no, yeah, I think it's a really interesting case.

I'm more worried about Hardin than Paul going forward, I would say, just like running out of gas, especially at the past few ones. But, hey, let's talk about the other guy in that game last night. Tell us about Kimball Walker and what a legend he is. He looked amazing last night. He did. And the whole entire time I was just thinking, man, I can't wait to watch him like next year on a good team. That's not the Hornets. Maybe.

I hope so I wanted to bring up him guys like him and guys like Daniel Russell You don't think he's you think he's gonna resign No I don't see he doesn't strike me as a guy who would like Who is like actively like Thirsty for the chance to play on a better team But I also don't think it's asking

Kimba To have something better around him He's a winner man But he seems national title Paulo So happy I know I know But he seems so happy there and like no matter what Like it's just like I don't know It's just his personality.

I think he's just... Yeah, sure. He's Westbrooky in a way where he, like, maybe wants to make the most of his situation. I can kind of see that. He was super loyal. He stayed in college three years, whatever. But I want to see him on a big stage. It would be a really, really big bummer for me if he stayed and they didn't do anything else to prove it to him.

That, like, almost exactly echoes Anthony Davis resigning with the Pelicans when they'd showed him. They would have absolutely done nothing for him. Yeah. I actually think, like, the coaching change has been really good. that's been fun to watch too. I've also liked to watch the Hornets because of that. But for guys like Kemba and for guys like Daniel Russell, I think the Hornets are actually in danger of falling out of the playoffs

and that's not so much. But this last stretch of the season is interesting because it's not only where their team will be positioned in the postseason. The postseason is probably not going to matter for much more than experience for either one of them. but the remainder of the regular season is kind of like an audition Yeah, I think if they don't make

It can channel frustrations for Kamba Which probably what you're about to say So if they don't make it Or if they, you know, barely make it Then that also is kind of an audition The team And auditioning so we're rooting for them not to make your playoffs Essentially

I mean if you're getting beat out by the magic That's tough, that's a tough look And I bet you every free agent meeting He's going to take with other teams They're going to be like By the way, did you realize your team got beeped by the magic in the playoff race. It's not great.

Yeah. Can't have a comeback for that. Can't have a comeback for that. I do want to. I think he's also the type of player who would thrive on a playoff stage. He's only had, I think, two playoff series once, I believe, as a bobcat, which is just to show you how far back that goes. I think he was on that team.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure with Al Jefferson as the lead player, which is good God. That was long ago. And then we actually looked it up one day, like who his best, uh, teammate was. And I said, Al Jefferson. Yeah. Al had a really good. one year with the Bobcats. That's, yeah, who's his best teammate now?

Now? Theoretical Malik Monk. That's true. I guess Bridges, Bridges probably has the most upside. Yeah, but do you mean, but you're saying now? Currently, the second. Jeremy Lamb?

Jeremy, no, he is. But Doom? He's coming out of the bench. Yeah. Yikes. I don't know. Yeah, no, but Kempo was really good in that other playoff series he played against the Miami Heat

with Jeremy Lynn. Okay. talking about the hornets. We're going to get on to the takes. Bobby says Zeller. Did he? Zeller's been playing well lately. He said King.

Get the fuck out of here. You know, he's fine. He set some hard screens. You know, and that's critical to every team. It's just like Bobby, right? He's setting screens for us to look good. All right, let's get on to the takes. This is the good stuff.

We're going to start off the top. We're going to get really spicy just to begin with. My take is that Jimmy Butler, should leave the Philadelphia 76ers, which at this point seems kind of inevitable, to sign with the Atlanta Hawks. Does it seem inevitable? There seems to be,

that seems to be what the whisper campaign is, is like pointing toward. The whisper campaign. Well, just like, that's a good podcast name. A good t-shirt for the store. No, just like, I don't know, if you hear any of the informed reporters out there talk about Jimmy Butler,

what they always seem to say is like, you know, Tobias definitely, the Sixers are probably going to resign, maybe sign it to a max even. Jimmy is not such a sure thing. I think a lot of it will probably depend on how the playoffs go. But if you're Jimmy too, I don't know, like the Sixers aren't the sort of team.

Like if you look at his list of teams that he offered the Timberwolves to begin with, the Sixers don't really seem to jive with that. Yeah. But a team like the Hawks, which pretty sleepy market, but I think if it were to be re-energized, I think could like

I think a lot of NBA players love it love the actual city so like it's not a terrible destination. A lot of strip clubs there. A lot of strip clubs. King of Diamonds. I actually don't know if that's that's in there. I just I just said it. Interesting. I'm just going on a Drake song at this point.

Interesting. I'm just going on a Drake song at this point. I hate to say so much because I don't want to ruin the purity that is the hawks right now. That's the point. Yes. Yeah, I know. Because think about what are you, what are you giving that? Like you're giving them this like furious like 30, he's 29 right now. Yeah, I think so.

This furious 30 year old injury prone guy who needs to be paid the most and is literally going to destroy these young guys. I'm banking everything on them lucking into Zion. Oh, that'd be incredible. That would be like that's what I want. Because Collins does need another big next to them. Yeah, for sure. That would be great.

Oh, that would be so good. That would be great. That would be the next proper tank. You know, the sixers, they were like. the most beautiful and like rewarding tank. I also just think they have an identity. Like they have a real identity. I sort of wrote about that in the in the in the in the in the in the trapeys which is like they are yeah.

Yeah, the easy thing to say is they're trying to be the warriors because of you know some of the people that hired and like the personnel they're trying to like cultivate. But it's not a bad thing. No, no, no. I mean it's just like it's maligned because it's a copycat thing and it's like oh well you can't be the warriors without like having like a step curry for a year. Yeah. The Hornets in fact tried. to be the Warriors and they got to one playoff series and then flame down. Yeah, there you go. So, but I do think they, they have the right

mindset about what they want to do with the team, you know, looking at passing, you know, and sort of how that is a foundational, you know, um, trait to, to build upon. And they have the guys who, you know, Kevin Herder already looks really like, he's looked, he had potential and, um, obviously Collins and Trey, Trey has added like an amazing second half of the season just from a shooting perspective after having, like an amazing first half passing. So I don't I really just like what they're doing

and I want the patience to endure there. Yeah, I think, oddly enough, both the Mavericks and the Hawks made out in that deal. And on top of that, the Hawks still have this pick that the Mavericks need to convey. Because I think in a large part, like Luca probably works anywhere. But if the Hawks want to lean into this identity,

as you're saying, which is more about ball movement and motion and whatever, it makes sense that they would want someone more like Trey than Luca. Yeah. Now, whether they're even at that point now where they can say, don't give me a top five potential NBA player in order to like lean into this system. So even into this like belief rather than a raw player, like a person who is clearly good.

But it is similar, I think, to a large degree of how like the Warriors play off against James Hardin. I was just going to make that comparison. Yeah. Both are good in their own right, but they're different in little ways. The Hawks still need that one guy. I think Trey is really good. I like Hurt her.

I love Collins. but they still need a star and I do feel like if they want to accelerate this really quickly you get let's say a Cam Reddish or whoever is good in the draft I honestly do not know whoever is going to

I don't watch college basketball anymore and like a frontline superstar it's pretty feisty I think they could be like the fifth seed next year we're seeing so many of these teams like the Sixers and the Lakers at a superstar and sort of have this

crisis about your young players, not developing fast enough. And I don't want that for the Hawks. Yeah. They are too pure. Yeah, they really are. I guess the right way to put it. All right, Paulo, let's talk about a team that actually has some stakes here over the next couple weeks.

The Denver Nuggets, I think, are like a success story this season, one might say. Yeah, for sure. But you're just a cynical, like, hard-ass journalist, and you just can't believe in them. Tell us about this. I don't know if it's just I'm going to look dumb at the end of this for not believing in the Nuggets. It's okay. So the take is that I think

they have a good chance of losing in the first round. And that's probably ridiculous considering they're going to be the two seat and probably have to play like, well, I don't know, it could be the Lakers in that 7th seat or could be the Spurs. So definitely in play. I just in the same way that I

talked about the Kings being that year before the year that they make that bigger jump, I think the Nuggets are right now having the year before they make the jump to like an actual contender. I think this is a year where we become like enamored by them and sort of their, you know, their system and what they're building there. And their way to take that system to an elite level without like, I don't want to say without a superstar because Yokic is to an extent that.

But he is a defensive liability. And I feel like when your best player is a defensive liability and you don't really have that perimeter guy to. bail you out, Jamal Murray, I don't think he's quite there yet. I think that creates issues for a playoff like series. Yeah. I think their fate very much decides on who they match up with. Yeah.

So right now it's the Spurs and you're right, that is trouble for them. That is a team with a lot of experience in outsmarting other teams that are more talented with them. I feel like, yeah. Right. And if we're saying that the Nuggets is like biggest defensive issue is probably room protection because of Yokic, he's the guy at center. I do feel like Pops' ability to game playing and just like,

cram the rim and just like hit him in the midrange would would obviously be tough for them. So this is an interesting question because it spins off into a debate about who we think is probably most likely to upset a team in the playoffs. Do we have any like early candidates? Oh, the Nets for sure. Yeah, I was going to see the Nets. So the Nets are currently the sixth seed in the East. They'd be matched up against the Pacers. The Pacers are probably the softest top fours. Right. Yeah, I think that they would take that series. I think it's the most likely one on the board. Not to undermine the Pacers. They've been good lately. Because they have been

good and they deserve some recognition for remaining stable without Alidipo, but their cap. They have a clear ceiling. The Nets could be a good team in seven games. That would be an interesting series because of the difference in styles. The spaces are more plotting and slow and

that's what like to speed it up. So it would be interesting to see how Indiana would fare against that kind of pace. Yeah. Yeah. other team I look at, well, I don't even know if this is technically an upset, but the rockets are currently in the 4-5 matchup with the Trailblazers. I do think like any team that gets matched up against the rockets probably at a disadvantage there. I just, I think I looked at the finals odds on 538 just before this. And I think like the Rockets, the Thunder, and I think even the Jazz have better final odds than the Nuggets, for instance. And I also think the Jazz are a sleeper

team because of our, well, I'll just put it on me, my long-held belief that they are like the sleeping giant. I don't think that's borne out this season. But I do think they have the things in place in order to like knock a team off. The Blazers and the

Rockets would be an interesting matchup betting-wise because those are the two teams that like shit the bed in the playoffs. Sure. So it's like, but I think I'd still take

the Rockets in that one. Would you guys give the Pistons any chance to beating the Raptors? No. No. Like, but is there a non-zero chance? Oh, I didn't even think

about like that would be a storyline. God, the pistons are so, like they're so, like in the left part. I don't understand them, but at the same time, Blake Griffin is amazing, and Alderjurman has been playing really well.

That's all I'm going to say. The Casey, nobody believes in us extending to the coach thing is like the only chance that they have. But the Raptors, Raptors are really weird lately. Yeah,

I'm just saying. They're a good team, obviously, but they're like, they're shaky in ways that I think a lot of people kind of miss. I think that would be the type of series

that goes sex games and everybody was like, what? Yeah, exactly. They would give them a firm like shove. For sure. Yeah. Before we get to our last take, let's talk about the watch of the night real quick here.

The Utah Jazz are playing Pollo's enemy, the Denver Nuggets. The Sleeping Giant versus Pollo's enemy. There you go. Me versus Pollo. Let's put us on the boxing card. I know that is an interesting one, especially with the Denver Nuggets coming off of that, that win against the Thunder the other night. Seems like that's the type of win they need to like kind of get the energy.

energy bag that they had going from this season. Nobody believes in momentum. But like, if it did exist, it would carry it over into this game. And you could watch that at 7.30 p.m. Pacific on T&T tonight. And remember, if you want to watch every NBA game,

subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com or from your preferred video provider. All right, we're going to get to this last take now. Haley, tell us how much you hate Ben Simmons. It's not true. I don't hate Ben Simmons. But I'm fed up. take. You're fed.

I'm fed up. Do you think he should date? My take is that he should through the remainder of the regular season, he should not take any more threes and actually limit his jumpers to. Now let me explain. The two three shots that he's taken this season, he's taken four,

but he's taken two legitimate ones. The other two were at the end of the buzzer. And his last season, his first season, he took 11 total, all came at the end of buzzers. Okay. The two that he's taken have been with so much time left on the shot clock, with no defender around him, barely set. Just horrible, like, horrible, like, confusing-looking shots. You know, I mean, like, technically good looks because nobody's around him.

But it's like he's taking them to prove to himself that he can do it. Did you guys see that video of Tony Hawk helping his daughter jump, like, dude? Yeah, yeah. To drop in on like a quarter pipe or something. And she's up there and she's scared. She doesn't want to do it. And she keeps like lurching her body forward. Like I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it. But she can't commit. That is literally him shooting threes. It is so weird. Both of those threes he's like gone for it. But only like to kind of after. It's like he's working himself up for it. Dude, that's not natural.

That's not helping anything. You are not getting acclimated to shooting threes. Just because once in a blue moon, even more rare than a blue moon. Like, of all the possessions in all the quarters and all the games this season, you have taken two legitimate

three-point shots, and they are bizarre. Haley, why do we fall? No, no, no. So my take it... To get back up, is the answer.

Yes. We need to fall before we learn. No, but this is what I'm saying. He's not letting himself fall. So if you're not going to do this, if you're not even going to put yourself into it, just wait. this is my time and my take

You're running out of time Alright let's go Okay Do not do it until the playoffs You're not doing anything right now You just undermine your whole take No no no no no no Don't you're not doing it right now

Okay Don't do it until the playoffs Like to surprise people You know how people pull all the time Like they have like a fun postseason you weren't expecting this, guess what we had this hidden. All of a sudden, he's a confident three-point shooter. He still probably won't be a good three-point shooter

because he shot two in his entire career that he wanted to shoot. Surprise, I lost the game. But that's still not enough at this point to get acclimated. So this random shooting and the jump shooting he's doing, the jump shooting is kind of getting him acclimated. It's like getting a little bit out of the paint. But pull it out in the playoffs. Still probably won't be good, but people won't expect it.

It's going to throw it off. and that will be your practice. You'll be surprising people so much that they'll be thrown off, so you'll feel justified in it, even though you're not making them. Because right now what you're doing is embarrassing. You're asking Ben Simmons to treat his three-point shot, like if it's like one of like Sean McVeigh's like trick plays in the playoffs. Like that makes no sense to me.

Like what do you, he's not, it's a three-point shot. He's not going to surprise anybody with it. Like it's not like some crazy like new thing. No, but this is the thing is that he, he, it will surprise people because he doesn't even attempt them right now. He doesn't even try them. He does now.

Exactly. So stop totally. No. I agree with the sentiment that we should not force him to sort of like take more jump shots because not all jump shots are good. And like he can be so much more impactful by just being who he is. But I do think there's a sense of establishing like, oh, if you give me literally like 10 feet of space, I'm going to take that shot.

And that's going to eventually sort of build up to this thing where he. But Paulo, that is so not what. happening. He's not taking these shots as a response to this space that he's being given. I'm just saying this is a start. Taking them is important. It's the first step. It's like admitting. It's like admitting your problem. But what I'm saying is take them, but wait and take them in the playoffs. That makes no sense. And so that will be it for group shot for Paula. We'll see you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.